Israel Wants Apology For Bombing UN Building

[Nbadan]

http://i7.tinypic.com/20zr0uf.jpg
So much for Precision guided bombs and surgical strikes



Israel's Ambassador to Washington Danny Ayalon said Wednesday that UN Secretary General Kofi Annan should apologize to Israel for saying that dropping a bomb on a UN post in south Lebanon was a deliberate act.

Speaking to CNN Ayalon said Annan's comments are "scandalous," and demanded he apologize. (Yitzhak Benhorin, Washington)

YNet (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3281463,00.html)

but the denyers can keep denying that Israel is targeting innocent civilians and now apparently, UN obervation personnel. It's their fault for not leaving Southern Lebanon anyway, right? Or didn't Israel warn them (after they bombed the airport, trains, and roads leading North)?

[cheguevara]

:lol Israeli diplomacy at their best. Turn a huge mistake by their army into an insult from the UN Secretary. genius

Anan was a bit harsh but the UN must have pleaded to Israel not to bomb and they still did. He was probably pissed and lost it.

But Israelis are making this "insult" by Anan seem worse than their huge communication mistake that killed 4 UN soldiers.

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah those fuckers. At least muslims don't kill anyone by mistake. Maybe the Israelis should adopt that policy. Making any attempt to limit collateral damage seems to be doing them zero good, since critics can suggest that Israel is targeting civilians with a straight face. If Israel is targeting civilians, they are doing a piss-poor job of it since the ratio is less than one dead per bomb dropped.

[Nbadan]

More info...


BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- The U.N. observers killed when an Israeli bomb made a direct hit on their bunker in southern Lebanon Tuesday called an Israeli military liaison about 10 times in the six hours before they died to warn that the aerial attacks were getting close to their position, according to a U.N. officer.

After each call, the Israeli officer promised to have the bombing stopped, an officer at the U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) base in Noqoura said.

Finally, an Israeli bomb exploded directly on the U.N. post near Khiyam, killing four U.N. observers from Austria, Finland, Canada and China, the U.N. officer said.

CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/26/mideast.observers/index.html)

[Yonivore]

STOLEN FROM THE BELMONT CLUB:

A Knife-Thrower at the Carnival (http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2006/07/knife-thrower-at-carnival.html)


Kofi Annan has accused Israel of deliberately targeting UN position in southern Lebanon. According to the Independent (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1197718.ece):


The UN secretary general Kofi Annan says an Israeli attack on a UN observation post was "apparently deliberate". Four unarmed military observers were killed in the air strike in southern Lebanon. ... Since fighting between Israel and Hezbollah militants began two weeks ago, there had been several dozen incidents of firing close to UN peacekeepers and observers, including direct hits on nine positions, some of them repeatedly, a UN official said. ... Last night's bomb made a direct hit on the building and shelter of the observer post in the town of Khiam, near the eastern end of the border with Israel, said Milos Struger, spokesman for the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon known as Unifil.
In order to have some sense of how plausible this accusation is, it would be useful to examine the statements of the UNIFIL itself prior to this incident. Ever since hostilities started UNIFIL has been documenting its activity through a series of press releases (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/unifilpress.htm). These provide a snapshot into what the UN troops were doing and how they have been faring during the period of combat.

UNIFIL ON JULY 17, 2006 (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr01.pdf)


The Lebanese government requested UNIFIL to provide a humanitarian escort to the villagers seeking safe passage outside of Marwahin. UNIFIL dispatched a patrol the village the same day, which stayed with the villagers throughout the night. Yesterday, UNIFIL was able to provide a humanitarian escort to 283 villagers from that area to Tyre. During this mission, the team came under fire, which endangered the lives of local civilians and UNIFIL troops. Initially, Hezbollah fired rockets from the vicinity of the village and subsequently the IDF fired into the village on two occasions.
UNIFIL ON JULY 18, 2006 (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr02.pdf)


Heavy exchanges of fire continued all along the length of the Blue Line during the past 24 hours. Rockets were fired from Lebanese territory, and there was intensive shelling and bombing from the Israeli side.

All UNIFIL positions in the area of operation are permanently occupied and maintained by the troops. There were 15 incidents of firing close to UNIFIL positions, and a position close to the village of Marwahin suffered on direct hit from the Israeli side causing material damage, but no injuries. UNIFIL is still facing serious restrictions in its freedom of movement through the area due to the ongoing hostilities and severe destruction of roads and most of the bridges. Yesterday, UNIFIL dispatched a re-supply of food, water, and fuel to its positions.
UNIFIL ON JULY 19, 2006 (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr03.pdf)


There were seven incidents of firing close to UN positions. Impacts of Israeli aerial bombardment detonated around 20 land mines in the immediate vicinity of a UNIFIL position south west of the village of Yarun, and caused an outbreak of fire. The troops were able to extinguish the fire before it reached the position. All UNIFIL positions in the area of operation are permanently occupied and maintained by the troops.
UNIFIL ON JULY 20, 2006 (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr04.pdf)


There were 31 incidents of firing close to UN positions during the past 24 hours, with three positions suffered direct hits from the Israeli side. Ten artillery shells impacted inside UN position of the Ghanaian battalion on the coast in Ras Naqoura, causing extensive damage. Four artillery shells impacted inside the patrol base of the Observer Group Lebanon in the Marun al Ras area, including three direct impacts on the building which caused extensive damage and cut electricity and communication connections. At the time of the shelling, there were 36 civilians inside the position, most of whom were women and children from the village of Marun Al Ras. There were no casualties. One artillery shell impacted inside the UNIFIL Headquarters compound in Naqoura, causing extensive damage and danger to the UNIFIL hospital where the doctors were operating at the time. Splinters of artillery shells also damaged the boundary wall of the Naqoura camp. Extensive shelling damage was reported in the Ghanaian battalion position south of Alma Ash Shab. Hezbollah firing was also reported from the immediate vicinity of the UN positions in Naqoura and Maroun Al Ras areas at the time of the incidents.
UNIFIL ON JULY 21, 2006 (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr05.pdf)


There were seven incidents of firing close to UN positions during the past 24 hours, with three positions suffering direct hits from the Israeli side. Three artillery shells impacted on the building inside the patrol base of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL) in the Marun Al Ras area, causing extensive damage to the buildings and vehicles, but with no casualties. Four artillery shells also hit this position a day earlier. There are 34 civilians from the village of Marun Al Ras inside the position. One artillery shell impacted inside the UNIFIL Headquarters compound in Naqoura yesterday evening, and one impacted inside a Ghanaian battalion position in the area of the village of Marwahin this morning. No casualties were reported, but there was material damage. UN equipment and vehicles were also damaged by splinters in the Ghanaian battalion position in the area of At Tiri in the central sector, and in the patrol base of the OGL in the Khiyam area in the eastern sector.
UNIFIL ON JULY 22, 2006 (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr06.pdf)


There were fifteen incidents of firing close to UN positions from the Israeli side during the past 24 hours, including a direct impact from an artillery shell inside a Ghanaian battalion position in the Marwahin area. No casualties were reported, but there was some material damage. Thirty two Lebanese civilians from the village of Marun Al Ras, who took shelter inside a patrol base of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL) for the last three days, decided to leave the UN position at their own will this morning, and relocate north. In the last three days, this position suffered direct hits by seven artillery shells on two different occasions.
UNIFIL ON JULY 23, 2006 (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr07.pdf)


There were seven incidents of firing close to UN positions from the Israeli side during the past 24 hours, mainly due to aerial bombardment in the area of the patrol base of the Observer Group Lebanon in Khiam. All UNIFIL positions in the area of operation remain permanently occupied and maintained by the troops. Yesterday, UNIFIL re-supplied a number of UN forward positions close to the Blue Line, including two positions in the Marun Al Ras area. Additional re-supply convoys are planned for today. UNIFIL provided escort to 150 members of the Lebanese Joint Security Forces and to a number of civilians from Bint Jubayl to Tibnin.
UNIFIL ON JULY 24, 2006 (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr08.pdf)


One unarmed UN military observer, a member of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL), was seriously wounded by small arms fire in the patrol base in the Marun Al Ras area yesterday afternoon. According to preliminary reports, the fire originated from the Hezbollah side during an exchange with the IDF. He was evacuated by the UN to the Israeli side, from where he was taken by an IDF ambulance helicopter to a hospital in Haifa. He was operated on, and his condition is now reported as stable. There were nine other incidents of firing close to UN positions during the past 24 hours, with two positions suffering direct hits from the Israeli side. Two aerial bombs impacted inside the Ghanaian battalion headquarters in the area of Tibnin, and three mortar rounds impacted inside an Indian battalion position in the Adaisseh area, causing extensive damage to the buildings and vehicles in both cases, but no casualties. Four aerial bombs impacted in the immediate vicinity of a Ghanaian position in the area of Brashit, and eleven tank rounds impacted in the immediate vicinity of a Ghanaian battalion position in the Rmaich area causing significant material damage.
UNIFIL ON JULY 25, 2006 (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr09.pdf)


Four members of the Ghanaian battalion with UNFIIL were lightly injured yesterday evening, when a tank round from the Israeli side impacted inside their position south of Rmaich. They were evacuated to the UNIFIL hospital in Naqoura and their condition is stable. There was also extensive material damage to the position. There were six other incidents of firing close to UN positions from the Israeli side during the past 24 hours. This morning, Hezbollah opened small arms fire at a UNIFIL convoy consisting of two armored personnel carriers (APC) on the road between Kunin and Bint Jubayl. There was some damage to the APCs, but no casualties, and the convoy was obliged to return to Kunin.
UNIFIL's official mandate (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/mandate.html) is to a) Confirm the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon; b) Restore international peace and security; c) Assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area. If each of the press releases is read in their entirety is manifestly clear that UNIFIL is performing none of these authorized missions. Instead it has become a kind of ambulance and relief service for the killed and injured on the Lebanese side of the border. The releases are peppered with accounts of UNIFIL personnel escorting what are described as civilians and villagers to places of safety. This is not really part of its mandate, which is not to say that it is immoral or wrong.

All the incidents of IDF fire reported in the press releases are clearly related to some kind of nearby combat with the Hezbollah. In one case the IDF fired on a village into which the UNIFIL had gone, but rockets had originated from the vicinity of the village prior. In another case, an Israeli aerial bombardment detonated mines all around a UNIFIL position. Those mines were presumably not planted by UNIFIL, but they were so close to it that the UN position caught fire. The UN observation post in Maroun al-Ras was hit by artillery, but we know from press reports that Maroun al-Ras was the epicenter of heavy fighting and the location of a Hezbollah bunker complex. The UN even ran a convoy from the Hezbollah "capital" of Bint Jubayl to another area. Bint Jubayl is well known to be the target of an IDF attack. Yet the UN felt that it was possible to move convoys through such areas, albeit at considerable danger.

One reason that they could was that UNIFIL was evidently in contact with the IDF. In a sentence which speaks volumes we learn that "One unarmed UN military observer, a member of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL), was seriously wounded by small arms fire in the patrol base in the Marun Al Ras area yesterday afternoon. According to preliminary reports, the fire originated from the Hezbollah side during an exchange with the IDF. He was evacuated by the UN to the Israeli side, from where he was taken by an IDF ambulance helicopter to a hospital in Haifa." This strongly implies that UNFIL was able to coordinate their movements with the IDF and that the IDF was willing to risk men and aircraft to help UNFIL.

Now a lot will be made of UN positions being "clearly marked". However nearly all of the fire reported on UN positions with the exception of the July 23 indicident in Kiyam, where the 4 UN observers were killed today, were from artillery, which is an area weapon. Artillery, depending on the angle and range from which it is fired, has a certain dispersion even allowing for crew perfection. (In contrast UNIFIL took small arms fire from the Hezbollah between Kunin and Bint Jubayl and small arms can only be used when visual contact is made). Imperfections in shell manufacture, operator error, barrel wear etc can cause an artillery round to fall off target. It is not called an area weapon for nothing. The one exception was a tank round that landed in a Ghanain position. But the firing was evidently not repeated which it would have had the tank gunner intended to destroy the Ghanaians.

The July 23 incident in Kiyam in "seven incidents of firing close to UN positions" involving aerial bombardment strongly suggests that Hezbollah positions were fairly close to the position of Observer Group Lebanon. It should be clear by now that the IDF had certainly not been deliberately targeting UNIFIL from July 17 to 25. How likely is it that the IDF after not aiming at UNIFIL should suddenly change their policy and aim to kill the observers at Kiyam, as categorically stated by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan?

One argument that will be heard is that since Israel has "precision weapons" the hit on the UN positions must have been deliberate. Yet it's far more likely that the UNIFIL position was hit by mistake. Even with "precision weapons" the IDF has lost 2 men and 5 wounded to friendly fire so far. The UK Herald (http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/66585.html) had this story:


Israeli forces are investigating two "friendly fire" incidents in which two helicopter pilots died and five infantrymen from the elite Golani Brigade were wounded during fierce fighting in southern Lebanon over the past four days. ... Five Israeli soldiers were also wounded when an armed unmanned Israeli drone launched missiles against them in the same area on Sunday. The remote-controlled "killer drone" was halted by a desperate radio call as it was about to deliver a second salvo against the Golani infantrymen as they scattered for cover. An Israel Defence Force source said Hizbollah is fighting a Vietcong-style tunnel war in the scrub-covered hills around Bint Jbeil, using a network of underground routes and bunkers dug up to 130ft below the surface to move unseen and unscathed. "They know we have reconnaissance drones and satellite surveillance of the area, so they have taken to shifting squads around the sector by tunnel to avoid the risk of attracting airstrikes or artillery fire," he said. ... They are operating in squads of 10 to 12 men and they have an intimate knowledge of the terrain.
To recapitulate, the UNIFIL is running a kind of ambulance service on the Lebanese side of the border. That is not its official mission; it has failed in its official mission but its men are obviously performing with considerable perseverance and bravery. UNIFIL are able to run convoys in an area where the Hezbollah are shifting squads around while the IDF doing its best to kill the Hezbollah. Yet until July 26 the UNIFIL had not suffered any fatalities from IDF fire. Their sole serious injury to that date had actually been caused by the Hezbollah, and the injured UN trooper was evacuated by the IDF to an Israeli hospital.

The IDF has for its part avoided hitting UNIFIL or their civilian convoys despite its widely publicized use of artillery and air. Far from being random, the IDF is apparently able to create safe corridors in active battle zones through which UNIFIL can pass until the recent incident in Kiyam. There are probably very few military organizations in the world which can accomplish this. Nevertheless, the danger of friendly fire naturally remains. The two IDF personnel probably killed and five wounded from friendly fire is proof of that. The Canadian with UNIFIL was actually the second Canadian to die at Israeli hands in recent days. The first was a Canadian-born IDF pilot called Thom Farkas. CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2006/07/25/canadian-pilot.html) reports:


At first, the army said human error or a technical malfunction caused the crash of the Apache helicopter. But it later reported Israeli artillery fire could have downed the chopper. Farkas was born in Canada, where his Israeli parents moved when they were young. He lived in the Toronto neighbourhoods of North York and Thornhill while growing up.
No one -- yet -- has accused Israel of deliberately firing upon itself. Considering the fact that UNIFIL peacekeeping mission was a dead-letter it should naturally be asked why Kofi Annan, as their ultimate commander has seen fit to keep them in a position of danger where their only chance of safety actually depends on accurate targeting by the IDF. Their positions are manifestly so close to the Hezbollah; their convoys so at risk at being confused with mobile Hezbollah forces that only by the grace of God and the accuracy of the IDF have fatalities been avoided until now. They were willing to take the risk. Annan was willing to make the hay. You be the judge of Kofi Annan's competence both in the care of his men and with respect to the accusation he has made against the IDF.
Certainly a more thorough and reasoned analysis than was engaged in by Kofi Annan.

[Nbadan]

Yeah those fuckers. At least muslims don't kill anyone by mistake. Maybe the Israelis should adopt that policy. Making any attempt to limit collateral damage seems to be doing them zero good, since critics can suggest that Israel is targeting civilians with a straight face. If Israel is targeting civilians, they are doing a piss-poor job of it since the ratio is less than one dead per bomb dropped.

You don't have to target civilians directly with munitions for there to be deadly consequences, for instance, Israel is attacking Lebanon's electrical supply and lines, its water and sanitation, and even ambulances and trucks carrying in relief food and medical aid.

The rocket attacks on Haifa are aimed at disrupting Israel's economy, after all, it is Israelis third largest city.

[cheguevara]

Yeah those fuckers. At least muslims don't kill anyone by mistake. Maybe the Israelis should adopt that policy. Making any attempt to limit collateral damage seems to be doing them zero good, since critics can suggest that Israel is targeting civilians with a straight face. If Israel is targeting civilians, they are doing a piss-poor job of it since the ratio is less than one dead per bomb dropped.

We are not talking about civilians but UN soldiers on a CLEARLY MARKED UN post.

It's just a huge communications error within the Israeli ranks but I don't see why they can't just apologize instead of being "outraged" by UN's insults

[Yonivore]

We are not talking about civilians but UN soldiers on a CLEARLY MARKED UN post.

It's just a huge communications error within the Israeli ranks but I don't see why they can't just apologize instead of being "outraged" by UN's insults
Apparently situated near a Hezbollah stronghold. Hanging out in a war zone near a bunch of terrorists is risky.

[MannyIsGod]

Regardless of the level of mistake that took place, bombing the UN bunker was obviously a mistake. You don't go around demanding aplogies after you kill 4 people like that and it was your fault. That is fucking retarded.

[Yonivore]

Regardless of the level of mistake that took place, bombing the UN bunker was obviously a mistake. You don't go around demanding aplogies after you kill 4 people like that and it was your fault. That is fucking retarded.
Not if it only serves to exacerbate the problem.

Those UNIFIL idiots had no business being there and, considering their checkered past with respect to Hezbollah, I can't say they deserve an apology anymore than any other innocent death. So, when would that stop?

Kofi Annan should be apologizing to the UN families for leaving them in Lebanon after the start of hostilities. That was the mistake.

[ChumpDumper]

Not if it only serves to exacerbate the problem.How would apologizing for a dumbass mistake make things worse?

[Yonivore]

How would apologizing for a dumbass mistake make things worse?
I was talking the asinine statement by Kofi Annan. I think they were right to demand an apology from the Secretary General of the United Nations who, without any evidence, made the claim that Israel bombed the U.N. bunker on purpose.

Annan knows all UN employees, observers, and peacekeepers should have been evacuated at the onset of hostilities. It's his fault they're dead. Well, right behind Hezbollah's

[velik_m]

According to various media, between 350 and 390 people are reported dead. Additionally, there have been between 480 and 600 people wounded, and over 700,000 have been made refugees, with an unknown number of missing civilians in the south.[140][141][142][143]

Hezbollah acknowledges 27 killed.[144][145] [146] IDF Chief of Staff Lt. General Dan Halutz has claimed that close to 100 Hezbollah fighters have been killed at 22 July, in land fighting in South Lebanon.[147] However he provided no evidence for the claim.


if we take the the Israeli generous estimate: 100 of 350 were enemy, that leaves 250 civilian causalties. (71%)


* 32 Israeli soldiers have been killed (including one pilot, killed in a collision between two helicopters, and two in a shot down helicopter, also 4 sailors were killed after INS Hanit was hit), and 76 more wounded.[148][8]

* 19 civilians have been killed[5], while another 418 civilians were treated in hospitals, 19 of whom were seriously injured, and another 875 treated for shock.[6]


Hezbollah 32 of 51 were israeli soldiers, that leaves 19 civilian causalties (37%)

Now tell me which is terrorist organization?

either Israeli equipment is less acurate than Hezbollah's, or they don't care about (non-israeli) human lives.

(both quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict)

[ChumpDumper]

Feh. Don't bomb UN bunkers. That shoud be easy enough.

[MannyIsGod]

Feh. Don't bomb UN bunkers. That shoud be easy enough.You would think.

[MannyIsGod]

With Israel, it is always someone elses fault. Always.

[cheguevara]

I was talking the asinine statement by Kofi Annan. I think they were right to demand an apology from the Secretary General of the United Nations who, without any evidence, made the claim that Israel bombed the U.N. bunker on purpose.

How the hell do you know they didn't have evidence? Obviously they had more than evidence that's why Anan was so pissed.

Israel don't have the right do demand shit, it's just a diplomatic tactic.

[Yonivore]

if we take the the Israeli generous estimate: 100 of 350 were enemy, that leaves 250 civilian causalties. (71%)



Hezbollah 32 of 51 were israeli soldiers, that leaves 19 civilian causalties (37%)

Now tell me which is terrorist organization?

either Israeli equipment is less acurate than Hezbollah's, or they don't care about (non-israeli) human lives.

(both quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict)
1) The battlefronts are in Southern Lebanon, therefore, you can expect most of the casualties to be incurred there.

2) Hezbollah's rocket barrages into Israel have all targeted civilian populations. It is only because the Israelis have prepared for these attacks and can retreat to bomb shelters that the Israeli civilian casualties aren't higher. It's certainly not for lack of trying on Hezbollah's part.

3) It's a war started by an act of aggression on the part of Hezbollah. There's no such thing as proportionate response during a war. There's only victory or defeat.

If you want to decrease civilian deaths in Southern Lebanon you should be calling for Hezbollah to cease hostilities, lay down their arms, and surrender unconditionally. At the very least you should be demanding they quit hiding behind Lebanese babies.

[Yonivore]

You would think.

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/upload/2006/07/flags.jpg
The U.N.'s years-long record on the Israel-Lebanon border makes mockery of the term "peacekeeping." On page 155 of my book, "Inside the Asylum," is a picture of a U.N. outpost on that border. The U.N. flag and the Hezbollah flag fly side by side. Observers told me the U.N. and Hezbollah personnel share water and telephones, and that the U.N. presence serves as a shield against Israeli strikes against the terrorists. (http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110008672)

[cheguevara]

1) The battlefronts are in Southern Lebanon, therefore, you can expect most of the casualties to be incurred there.

2) Hezbollah's rocket barrages into Israel have all targeted civilian populations. It is only because the Israelis have prepared for these attacks and can retreat to bomb shelters that the Israeli civilian casualties aren't higher. It's certainly not for lack of trying on Hezbollah's part.

3) It's a war started by an act of aggression on the part of Hezbollah. There's no such thing as proportionate response during a war. There's only victory or defeat.

If you want to decrease civilian deaths in Southern Lebanon you should be calling for Hezbollah to cease hostilities, lay down their arms, and surrender unconditionally. At the very least you should be demanding they quit hiding behind Lebanese babies.


I agree that Hezbollah are coward pieces of shit. But do you really beleive they will surrender someday?? Fuck no, they will fight to the death and to their kids deaths and to the kids of their kids deaths.

Yeah there might be a cease fire, but this "New Middle East" the US govmt is talking about is fantasy, they might as well bring in fairies and unicorns to the equation. I don't understand Israelis/US govmt, are they really that stupid to think this will end for good with the defeat of the Hezbollah?

or maybe they think the public is stupid enough to eat those lies.

[velik_m]

1) The battlefronts are in Southern Lebanon, therefore, you can expect most of the casualties to be incurred there.

2) Hezbollah's rocket barrages into Israel have all targeted civilian populations. It is only because the Israelis have prepared for these attacks and can retreat to bomb shelters that the Israeli civilian casualties aren't higher. It's certainly not for lack of trying on Hezbollah's part.

3) It's a war started by an act of aggression on the part of Hezbollah. There's no such thing as proportionate response during a war. There's only victory or defeat.

If you want to decrease civilian deaths in Southern Lebanon you should be calling for Hezbollah to cease hostilities, lay down their arms, and surrender unconditionally. At the very least you should be demanding they quit hiding behind Lebanese babies.


bottom line is Hezbollah who tries to kill civilians kills less civilians than Israel.

[Yonivore]

I agree that Hezbollah are coward pieces of shit. But do you really beleive they will surrender someday?? Fuck no, they will fight to the death and to their kids deaths and to the kids of their kids deaths.
Then so be it.


Yeah there might be a cease fire, but this "New Middle East" the US govmt is talking about is fantasy, they might as well bring in fairies and unicorns to the equation. I don't understand Israelis/US govmt, are they really that stupid to think this will end for good with the defeat of the Hezbollah?
There are other things in play. The rest of the Arab world is pressuring Syria to abandon it's lovefest with Iran.

One thing's for sure. Hezbollah's attacks will end with their defeat.


or maybe they think the public is stupid enough to eat those lies.
or maybe you can't see past the end of your nose on certain issues.

[Yonivore]

bottom line is Hezbollah who tries to kill civilians kills less civilians than Israel.
Only because they're inept. It's not for lack of trying.

[MannyIsGod]

Hezbollah attacks Isralie Army positions with rockets. The rocket attacks are not only aimed at cities.

[velik_m]

Only because they're inept. It's not for lack of trying.

the 32 dead israeli soldiers might argue against them being inept.

[Yonivore]

the 32 dead israeli soldiers might argue against them being inept.
I meant inept at killing Israeli civilians. Keep up.

And, if you want an explanation for the disproportionate number of Lebanese vs. Israeli civilian deaths, I believe this cartoonist nails it fairly succinctly:

http://static.flickr.com/69/198387328_7e00548267_o.jpg

[cheguevara]

One thing's for sure. Hezbollah's attacks will end with their defeat.


don't be so sure. They might go away for a while but they will be back. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

[MannyIsGod]

Maybe if Russia gave Hezbollah a Mig29 squadron or 2 they would show a higher level of competence.

[Nbadan]

One thing's for sure. Hezbollah's attacks will end with their defeat.

Seems to me that Hezbollah is winning. Lebanon has 1/20th the economy of Israel and this is a war of economic attriation.

[Yonivore]

Maybe if Russia gave Hezbollah a Mig29 squadron or 2 they would show a higher level of competence.
Nah, Israel went 92 and 0 against the Syrian air force in the '67 war. I don't think Hezbollah would fair much better today.

[MannyIsGod]

Anyone who thinks Hezbollah is any closer to defeat today than they were 2 weeks ago probably also thinks Iraq is a strong democracy.

[ChumpDumper]

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/upload/2006/07/flags.jpgIs that the one they bombed?

[Yonivore]

don't be so sure. They might go away for a while but they will be back. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.
But, if there's no sugar daddy (Iran & Syria) left to ship you weapons and if there is meaningful efforts by Lebanon to not allow them to become entrenched in Southern Lebanon they'd be impotent.

[Yonivore]

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/upload/2006/07/flags.jpgIs that the one they bombed?
I don't think so.

[spurster]

A pox on both sides.

[Yonivore]

A pox on both sides.
We wouldn't be where we are today if Hezbollah hadn't been spending the past six years arming themselves in preparation for just the provocation they provided a little over a week ago.

I don't get the argument that Israel is somehow doing something other than defending itself.

[NorCal510]

whats a hezbollah?

[cheguevara]

But, if there's no sugar daddy (Iran & Syria) left to ship you weapons and if there is meaningful efforts by Lebanon to not allow them to become entrenched in Southern Lebanon they'd be impotent.

Are you talking about the demise of Syria and Iran???

that's another book my friend, and even Israel and US are afraid to open that book.

who is gonna stop them from being in southern lebanon, if they have the support from the people who live there?? Do you see the US having any control of Iraq?

[velik_m]

I meant inept at killing Israeli civilians. Keep up.

And, if you want an explanation for the disproportionate number of Lebanese vs. Israeli civilian deaths, I believe this cartoonist nails it fairly succinctly:

http://static.flickr.com/69/198387328_7e00548267_o.jpg

Maybe the Israeli should send the civilians in fight to cut down the loses.

No i think civilian caualties come from bombing hospitals and residental areas.

[ChumpDumper]

whats a hezbollah?If you're serious, google it. If not, I'll just let you know these posts aren't going to last long here.

[Yonivore]

Are you talking about the demise of Syria and Iran???

that's another book my friend, and even Israel and US are afraid to open that book.

who is gonna stop them from being in southern lebanon, if they have the support from the people who live there?? Do you see the US having any control of Iraq?
Syria is under tremendous pressure, from Arab countries, to cut it's ties with both Iran and Hezbollah. If that's done -- how's Iran going to support a decimated Hezbollah in Lebanon?

[ChumpDumper]

Has any Arab country besides Saudi Arabia officially denounced Hezbollah's actions?

[Obstructed_View]

The rocket attacks on Haifa are aimed at disrupting Israel's economy, after all, it is Israelis third largest city.
I must be misunderstanding this statement, because you aren't actually implying that rockets packed with ball bearings are intended to do anything other than kill as many people as possible.

[Yonivore]

Has any Arab country besides Saudi Arabia officially denounced Hezbollah's actions?
Egypt and Jordan most prominently. But, there have also been condemnations from most of the Persian Gulf states as well.

[cheguevara]

I must be misunderstanding this statement, because you aren't actually implying that rockets packed with ball bearings are intended to do anything other than kill as many people as possible.

ppl hiding in bunkers instead of being at work does affect economy.

But I think its aimed at psychologically hurting the Israelis

[ChumpDumper]

Do you have a link to those official denunciations? I couldn't find them.

[ChumpDumper]

So far, I've found this:

The governments of Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia have not expressed support for Hezbollah. But they have condemned the Israeli assault on Lebanon.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-07-19-voa6.cfm

[Obstructed_View]

ppl hiding in bunkers instead of being at work does affect economy.

But I think its aimed at psychologically hurting the Israelis
So you guys actually think that firing rockets into civilian areas is not intended to kill as many people as possible. Now at least I know where your heads are at.

By the way, why does Hezbollah give a shit that the Jews aren't at work again?

[velik_m]

I must be misunderstanding this statement, because you aren't actually implying that rockets packed with ball bearings are intended to do anything other than kill as many people as possible.

They are meant to scare (terrorize) people, if they kill someone it's just and added bonus.

[Obstructed_View]

They are meant to kill people, if they scare (terrorize) someone it's just an added bonus.

Fixed. I've never heard one of those organizations state that their mission is to scare every non-muslim.

[velik_m]

Fixed. I've never heard one of those organizations state that their mission is to scare every non-muslim.

they don't even have 1 kill per rocket, it would be stupid to expect great casualties from such inacurate weapons.

[Yonivore]

they don't even have 1 kill per rocket, it would be stupid to expect great casualties from such inacurate weapons.
It would be stupid to believe an organization whose stated purpose for even existing is to annihilate the Jews and destroy Israel aren't trying to do just that.

[Obstructed_View]

they don't even have 1 kill per rocket, it would be stupid to expect great casualties from such inacurate weapons.
The fact that people are sleeping in bomb shelters doesn't somehow change the intentions of Hezbollah, and I don't recall anyone accusing them of having an abundance of brains.

[Yonivore]

STOLEN AND PARAPHRASED FROM GREG RICHARDS AT THE AMERICAN THINKER (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5705):


The world’s media are once again filtering warfare through their idiosyncratic perspectives. Most of them are shocked to discover that civilians are injured when terrorists locate military facilities in apartment houses, mosques, and other civilian locales. And they are doubly outraged when a missile or a shell goes off course injuring or killing innocents. But this is just one of the reasons that Sherman said that “war is hell.” That is why sensible people seek to avoid it. However, that does not relieve the observer of making judgments.

Herewith a primer to help with those judgments:

When you attack a country that is at peace, you are the aggressor. Aggression is a disruption of the civil order. It is not measured solely in the quantitative terms of the specific engagement. For instance, the significance of Pearl Harbor did not reside in the specific number of bombs the Japanese dropped on our ships. It also resided in the alteration of the relations between the two countries by force. It called forth a response on the part of the U.S. that was not, and was not intended to be, proportional to that attack. The response it called forth was to establish under whose power the citizens of each country were going to live.

In the Israel/Hizbullah War, Hizbullah is the aggressor. Israel was at peace with its neighboring country Lebanon. Out of the territory of Lebanon, Hizbullah undertook acts of war. Like the Japanese, they did not declare war, they undertook war.
Once war is initiated, then the question is not proportionality, but victory. The question to be decided is under whose power are the citizens of each country going to live?

The policy of the U.S. toward countries that attempt to bring our citizens under their power is “unconditional surrender.” This means that the U.S. expects to deliver to our enemy as much devastation in as compressed a timeframe as possible until the leadership of the country surrenders unconditionally to our power. That determines under whose power the citizens of each country are going to live: ours.

In the case of the Israel/Hizbullah War, the question is whether Israel will live under the power of Hizbullah or whether Hizbullah is going to live under the power of Israel. In that sense, whatever the vocabulary, Israel is now fighting for the unconditional surrender of Hizbullah, or what amounts to the same thing, its complete destruction. We can expect that Israel will deliver the maximum amount of damage against Hizbullah of which it is capable in as compressed a timeframe as possible.
However, as Pyrrhus showed two millennia ago, and Europe demonstrated again in World War I, it is possible to conduct a war so that victory is as devastating as defeat. Therefore, we can expect that Israel will also exercise economy of force so that the casualties that it experiences are not beyond the capability of its society to absorb. We can expect Israel to substitute technology for personnel to the extent possible while bending every effort to find out the weak points of Hizbullah
Once a country is attacked by an enemy, there is no substitute for victory or the attack will continue. No society accepts that condition. There are only two outcomes – victory or defeat. We can assume that Israel is planning on victory and we can expect to see it expend the necessary force to achieve that.
During this period there is going to be violence. That is what war means. You can photograph it from every conceivable angle, and document every casualty. That does not change the fact that there is an aggressor – Hizbullah – and a defender – Israel. The end game of war is when the defender goes on the offensive to destroy the aggressor. The final stage of a war is when the defender appears to be the aggressor as it moves into the territory of the aggressor and burns out its black heart. That will be the final stage of the war. Then there will be peace.
All recent history shows that there is no role for a “peacekeeping” force in a situation of military antagonism. The oldest of illusions is that the “presence” of a third force will in some way provide a deterrent factor – wrong. Wrong when there was a UN force in Sinai before the 1967 War. Wrong when we put Marines in Lebanon in 1983. Wrong when we put unsupported troops in Mogadishu. Wrong when whatever grotesquely ineffective force was put in southern Lebanon by the UN defaulted on its duty. Why? Because the peacekeeping force is not playing for keeps while the aggressor is. So it cannot work. The only solution is the destruction of the aggressor. Otherwise the logic of the aggressor is to keep up the aggression. The aggressor doesn’t want peace, he wants victory. The only way to block that is to inflict defeat on him. There is no third way.

[velik_m]

^^Doesn't change the fact that rockets have more fear factor than kill factor.

[Yonivore]

Doesn't change the fact that rockets have more fear factor than kill factor.
If the Israelis had positioned their military in Haifa and then, placed their weapons caches in private residences, and further, did not allow the residents to seek shelter -- they'd be more of a kill factor.

You're kidding yourself if you believe every time Hezbollah launches a rocket they exclaim "That'll scare 'em!" instead of "Die you Jew scum!"

[Obstructed_View]

^^Doesn't change the fact that rockets have more fear factor than kill factor.
That's only because a half million people have moved out of range of the rockets.

[Obstructed_View]

If the Israelis had positioned their military in Haifa and then, placed their weapons caches in private residences, and further, did not allow the residents to seek shelter -- they'd be more of a kill factor.
The above would only be true if Hezbollah had precision weapons and tried NOT to kill civilians. If they had precision weapons they would be aiming for the largest population centers in order to kill as many people as possible.

[ChumpDumper]

Has anyone else found these official Arab denunciations of Hezbollah?

[Obstructed_View]

Has anyone else found these official Arab denunciations of Hezbollah?
Some of those governments were intitially critical of the kidnapping of the soldiers, but as CNN continues to show Hezbollah-friendly news and the Bush haters latch onto any enemy of the US to support, there has been no need for any of them to even make a show of being critical of Hezbollah. The fact that they risked making the initial statements is surprising, as the citizens of all those countries are overwhelmingly anti-Israel and anti-US.

[velik_m]

"The policy of the U.S. toward countries that attempt to bring our citizens under their power is “unconditional surrender.” This means that the U.S. expects to deliver to our enemy as much devastation in as compressed a timeframe as possible until the leadership of the country surrenders unconditionally to our power. That determines under whose power the citizens of each country are going to live: ours. "

the US has no control over Afginistan and Iraq, no control over Serbia either. times have changed. you cannot win a war anymore.

"All recent history shows that there is no role for a “peacekeeping” force in a situation of military antagonism. The oldest of illusions is that the “presence” of a third force will in some way provide a deterrent factor – wrong. Wrong when there was a UN force in Sinai before the 1967 War. Wrong when we put Marines in Lebanon in 1983. Wrong when we put unsupported troops in Mogadishu. Wrong when whatever grotesquely ineffective force was put in southern Lebanon by the UN defaulted on its duty. Why? Because the peacekeeping force is not playing for keeps while the aggressor is. So it cannot work. The only solution is the destruction of the aggressor. Otherwise the logic of the aggressor is to keep up the aggression. The aggressor doesn’t want peace, he wants victory. The only way to block that is to inflict defeat on him. There is no third way."

well it's hard to peacekeep when the most powerfull force in the world is behind one of the sides and protects them from any action.

"The final stage of a war is when the defender appears to be the aggressor as it moves into the territory of the aggressor and burns out its black heart. That will be the final stage of the war. Then there will be peace."

No there won't be.

[velik_m]

Some of those governments were intitially critical of the kidnapping of the soldiers, but as CNN continues to show Hezbollah-friendly news and the Bush haters latch onto any enemy of the US to support, there has been no need for any of them to even make a show of being critical of Hezbollah. The fact that they risked making the initial statements is surprising, as the citizens of all those countries are overwhelmingly anti-Israel and anti-US.

yes, i'm pretty sure the arabs form their opinion based on CNN reports.

[ChumpDumper]

Some of those governments were intitially critical of the kidnapping of the soldiers, but as CNN continues to show Hezbollah-friendly news and the Bush haters latch onto any enemy of the US to support, there has been no need for any of them to even make a show of being critical of Hezbollah. The fact that they risked making the initial statements is surprising, as the citizens of all those countries are overwhelmingly anti-Israel and anti-US.You mean that those governments have the most to lose in a widespread Islamic fundamentalist movement that could be brought about or helped along by an Israeli invasion of a muslim country?

Wow.

[Obstructed_View]

yes, i'm pretty sure the arabs form their opinion based on CNN reports.
Um, since when do you think the "arabs" as you call them have an opinion other than "death to Israel"? The only reason those GOVERNMENTS made the initial statements is because they have decent relations with the non-muslim world and are trying to walk the balance beam between international relations and their CITIZENS, who want to wipe out Israel and the rest of the non-muslim world. Once they saw that the UN, as well as public opinion, driven in large part by CNN, were not overwhelmingly in favor of the country who has been attacked from two different sides in a coordinated attack to kidnap soldiers and kill civilians with rockets, they figured they didn't have to keep up the charade anymore.

[Obstructed_View]

You mean that those governments have the most to lose in a widespread Islamic fundamentalist movement that could be brought about or helped along by an Israeli invasion of a muslim country?

Wow.
Are you agreeing with me?

By the way, I think you mean "brought about or helped along by an Israeli reaction to aggression by two muslim groups, with the cooperation of three muslim countries."

[ChumpDumper]

By the way, I think you mean "brought about or helped along by an Israeli reaction to aggression by two muslim groups, with the cooperation of three muslim countries."I described how the citizens of those Arab countries would see it.

You guys act like none of this has happened before.

[Obstructed_View]

I described how the citizens of those Arab countries would see it.

You guys act like none of this has happened before.
It's funny, you say something that I agree with, and then you follow it up with a smart assed comment that sounds confrontational.

[ChumpDumper]

It's not smart-assed, it's all happened before -- Including bombing a UN position. Hezbollah is playing to its base, and I haven't seen anything that's weakening its support at this point. Even the Iraqi leader can't bring himself to say anything against Hezbollah.

[Obstructed_View]

It's not smart-assed, it's all happened before -- Including bombing a UN position. Hezbollah is playing to its base, and I haven't seen anything that's weakening its support at this point. Even the Iraqi leader can't bring himself to say anything against Hezbollah.
Dude, American muslims won't say anything against Hezbollah. No muslim will take sides with a kafir over a fellow Muslim. Ever. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by that. I am surprised that people still fall for parading civilian casualties to the media after someone bombs the terrorists in the same building as the civilians.

[ChumpDumper]

Terrorists were in the UN bunker?

[ChumpDumper]

I'll have to see more pictures, but from the BBC video it's difficult to see how the Israelis could accidentally shell a white building on top of a hill with the letters "UN" in black paint on the highest part of the building, mush less call in an accidental precision airstrike on the same building.

[violentkitten]

terrorist fan club in full effect

[ChumpDumper]

I'm a fan of terrorists if I have questions about Israelis killing Finnish, Chinese, Canadian and Austrian observers?

What's your take on shelling and bombing the big white UN building on the top of a hill?

The Israelis seem to have learned nothig from the past - you'd think they'd be more careful.

[ChumpDumper]

Ok, now Fox News is saying that the Israelis have bombed Lebanese army bases and relay stations for state tv. I thought their beef was just with Hezbollah, right?

[jochhejaam]

The Israelis seem to have learned nothig from the past - you'd think they'd be more careful.

Saying they've learned nothing from the past is as wreckless a statement as Kofi's assertion that the bombing was deliberate. The relentless hostilities against their Nation over the past several decades has etched the reality into the minds of the Israeli's that they are going to be threatened and attacked by terrorists and M/E Countries without cessation for a time not less than "as long as they exist".


And do you seriously believe that in war accidents don't happen in spite of being careful?

[clambake]

Some fragments of the Lebanese army have joined Hezbollah in the fight.

[ChumpDumper]

Saying they've learned nothing from the past is as wreckless a statement as Kofi's assertion that the bombing was deliberate. They've bombed UN positions before.
And do you seriously believe that in war accidents don't happen in spite of being careful?As I said, you'd think they would be more careful since they have done it before. Seriously.

[jochhejaam]

Ok, now Fox News is saying that the Israelis have bombed Lebanese army bases and relay stations for state tv. I thought their beef was just with Hezbollah, right?
And I thought that the Lebanese said that their military would join Hezbullah in their fight against Israel, right?

[ChumpDumper]

Some fragments of the Lebanese army have joined Hezbollah in the fight.Well I guess no one saw that coming.

[clambake]

Well, not long ago, don't pin me down, UN troops videotaped the kidnap of an Israeli soldier. The UN was not forthcoming with this info, but Israel found out about it's existence.

There is no love lost between the UN and Israel.

[jochhejaam]

They've bombed UN positions before.As I said, you'd think they would be more careful since they have done it before. Seriously.
On purpose?
They've been defending themselves against these mindless idiots forever. Accidents are going to happen and these accidents pale in comparison to the stated deliberate targeting of innocents by their enemies that have instigated the hostilities.

It has to be brought to a head.

[NorCal510]

1. hezbollah
20 up, 7 down


a group of angry men who sneaked in 12,000 missiles into lebanon under their funny hats and are now lobbing them into northern israel.

thanks to hezbollah, world war 3 is underway.

[ChumpDumper]

On purpose?Well they hit a UN position with over 30 shells and killed over 100 Lebanese who had heeded Israeli warnings to leave their homes and took shelter there. You tell me.

[jochhejaam]

Well they hit a UN position with over 30 shells and killed over 100 Lebanese who had heeded Israeli warnings to leave their homes and took shelter there. You tell me.
No, you offer proof that it was intentional.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not defending Hezbollah here. I'm just saying that these mistakes could hurt Israel more than invading Lebanon might help.

[smackdaddy11]

This thread needs to get back on track.

Retired Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie on the CBC.


http://www.cbc.ca/metromorning/media/20060726LMCJUL26.ram

At the 3 minute mark he discusses the strategy of the islamakaziz's. Key point. Listen about the targeting at the UN building.

http://www.cjnews.com/pastIssues/02/aug15-02/main.asp


Second picture RH side of page. That look "neutral" to you?

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200607/INT20060726c.html

Only one person can command to have a UN post abandoned. Kofi Annan.

Kofi killed the soldiers.

[ChumpDumper]

No, you offer proof that it was intentional.If it was an accident, why did they learn nothing from it?

[jochhejaam]

I'm not defending Hezbollah here. I'm just saying that these mistakes could hurt Israel more than invading Lebanon might help.

Short of annihilation I'm not sure how much more hurt can be done to Israel.

This invasion into a neighboring Country is a sign that they've been pushed far beyond their normal policy of measured responses that amount to little more than tit for tat. They've been pushed too far for too long.

[ChumpDumper]

Second picture RH side of page. That look "neutral" to you?Was that the site in question? Yoni said it wasn't.

[ChumpDumper]

Short of annihilation I'm not sure how much more hurt can be done to Israel.

This invasion into a neighboring Country is a sign that they've been pushed far beyond their normal policy of measured responses that amount to little more than tit for tat. They've been pushed too far for too long.They've only been out of Lebanon a few years. How long will they stay this time?

I'm prefectly willing to accept this as another fuckup by the Israelis.

[smackdaddy11]

I don't know. This is the funny part. Does it matter???? Jeez.

Please don't tell me that is all you got from the above info.

[jochhejaam]

If it was an accident, why did they learn nothing from it?
Did you miss the part about accidents happening no matter how careful you are?

[ChumpDumper]

This is the funny part.I don't find anything funny about this.
Please don't tell me that is all you got from the above info.Why should I listen to all that. I know exactly how human shields work. If the Israelis know the UN hasn't pulled out, shouldn't they take that into account -- especially if they accidentally bombed another UN position a decade ago killing over 100 people?

Especially if they got 10 phone calls from the UN observers they killed?

[jochhejaam]

They've only been out of Lebanon a few years. How long will they stay this time?

I'm prefectly willing to accept this as another fuckup by the Israelis.
How long? Who knows? Probably not a question that needs to be asked just yet.

FU meaning the invasion to root out hezbullah or the bombing of the UN Bldg?

[ChumpDumper]

FU meaning the invasion to root out hezbullah or the bombing of the UN Bldg?The latter. The former is probably not a question that needs to be asked just yet.

[smackdaddy11]

Why should I listen to all that.

Problem #1.


I know exactly how human shields work. If the Israelis know the UN hasn't pulled out, shouldn't they take that into account

It's an enemy position. So reward the tards by not bombing them? Guess that works doesn't it.


-- especially if they accidentally bombed another UN position a decade ago killing over 100 people?

They didn't target the building. They targeted the little fuckers using the position as cover. Prime example of you NOT listening to the General who plainly stated the building was NOT being targeted.

[jochhejaam]

The latter. The former is probably not a question that needs to be asked just yet.
It need to be asked for clarification :)

Accidents and f-up's are the same thing. Glad we see eye to eye.

[ChumpDumper]

It's an enemy position. So reward the tards by not bombing them? Guess that works doesn't it.Don't bomb the wrong building. That does work.
They didn't target the building. They targeted the little fuckers using the position as cover. Prime example of you NOT listening to the General who plainly stated the building was NOT being targeted.They hit the building. If it was a laser guided bomb, they HAD to have targeted the building. That's how those work. It's a fuckup.

[ChumpDumper]

And I already knew about the emails the Canadian sent out. I didn't need the audio link.

[spurster]

Hezbollah intentionally kills civilians. That's terrorism by any reasonable definition.

Israel intentionally kills civilians. That's terrorism, too. I don't hear Israel apologizing for any mistakes.

I have no problem with Israel (or any nation) defending itself, but there is a big problem with the way Israel is defending itself.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=spurster]Israel intentionally kills civilians. That's terrorism, too. I don't hear Israel apologizing for any mistakes.
I must have missed the proof that you provided of this. Mind posting it again? Thanks.

[Yonivore]

Hezbollah intentionally kills civilians. That's terrorism by any reasonable definition.

Israel intentionally kills civilians. That's terrorism, too. I don't hear Israel apologizing for any mistakes.

I have no problem with Israel (or any nation) defending itself, but there is a big problem with the way Israel is defending itself.
Name one war where innocent civilians weren't killed.

[MannyIsGod]

Name one war where innocent civilians weren't killed.Sincerely,
Hezbollah.

[MannyIsGod]

It always amazes me how both sides to this conflict use the exact same justifications and don't realize it.

[Obstructed_View]

Ok, now Fox News is saying that the Israelis have bombed Lebanese army bases and relay stations for state tv. I thought their beef was just with Hezbollah, right?
Do some homework. Hezbollah runs those TV stations.

[Obstructed_View]

We are not talking about civilians but UN soldiers on a CLEARLY MARKED UN post.

It's just a huge communications error within the Israeli ranks but I don't see why they can't just apologize instead of being "outraged" by UN's insults


With Israel, it is always someone elses fault. Always.
Guys, they have apologized. What they are also doing is trying to make sure the UN doesn't demonize them for it, because the UN is looking for any excuse not to have to send peacekeepers.

http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/National/2006/07/27/1704352-sun.html

[MannyIsGod]

You're right, they accepted responsibility right away. I made the mistake of accepting the arguements of the resident idiots (the UN was stupid to be near Hezbollah and thats why they got bombed) as an official Isreali position when I knew it wasn't.

Anyhow, Israel has never stopped doing someting out of fear of collateral damange. They don't care who gets in their way as long as they can get the job done.

[jochhejaam]

You're right, they accepted responsibility right away. I made the mistake of accepting the arguements of the resident idiots (the UN was stupid to be near Hezbollah and thats why they got bombed) as an official Isreali position when I knew it wasn't.

Anyhow, Israel has never stopped doing someting out of fear of collateral damange. They don't care who gets in their way as long as they can get the job done.

You lost me on the second paragraph MIG. That's your opinion, fine, but it's certainly not something you can substantiate.


In actuality I believe they've shown far more restraint over the years than we would have shown under the same circumstances.

[Yonivore]

Well, it appears that Kofi may, indeed, owe Israel an apology

Annan's Claims On Casualties May Unravel (http://www.nysun.com/article/36860)


A Canadian U.N. observer, one of four killed at a UNIFIL position near the southern Lebanese town of Khiyam on Tuesday, sent an e-mail to his former commander, a Canadian retired major-general, Lewis MacKenzie, in which he wrote that Hezbollah fighters were "all over" the U.N. position, Mr. MacKenzie said. Hezbollah troops, not the United Nations, were Israel's target, the deceased observer wrote.
Interesting.

Oh, by the way, jochhejaam; Substantiation isn't something Manny worries about. If it occurs in his brain, it must be true.

[spurster]

By all accounts, the vast majority of deaths and causalties on the Lebanon side have been civilians. The Israeli justification is that these same places are Hezbollah strongholds and offices and the civilians are Hezbollah supporters. It seems to me the same justification works just as well for Hezbollah's attacks on Israel.

[Yonivore]

By all accounts, the vast majority of deaths and causalties on the Lebanon side have been civilians. The Israeli justification is that these same places are Hezbollah strongholds and offices and the civilians are Hezbollah supporters. It seems to me the same justification works just as well for Hezbollah's attacks on Israel.
Really? Haifa is an Israeli military stronghold? There are Israeli soldiers bunkered down in residences and among families in Israel? The IDF is firing from fence lines and rooftops of UN compounds?

And, I don't recall Israel ever claiming the dead civilians were Hezbollah supporters. While many of them probably are, I don't think that could be said of the infants and young children.

Seriously, what choice did the Israelis have? When the Hezbollah chooses to engage, militarily, from civilian and residential -- and ostensibly nuetral -- locations, what do you do? Hope they run out of bullets and that none of their munitions hit their mark -- and, then, go in and arrest them?

[clambake]

The Canadian email sums up the uselessness of UN troops and observers. Think Ahnan will dodge questions about this?

[Yonivore]

The Canadian email sums up the uselessness of UN troops and observers. Think Ahnan will dodge questions about this?
UNIFIL's mandate expires next Monday. I doubt it will be renewed.

They spent a couple of decades doing nothing more than watching Hezbollah entrench themselves in Southern Lebanon and facilitate skirmishes with Israel.

I think Annan will dodge questions about this, just as he does with every other UN failure.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; The United Nations did a damn good job of distributing food and bandaids. It's the only thing they ever did well and, they screwed that up when they started meddling in conflict resolution, (i.e. Oil-for-Food). They should give up and go back to strictly distributing food and bandaids.

[Yonivore]

http://i7.tinypic.com/20zr0uf.jpg
So much for Precision guided bombs and surgical strikes
There was something about this photo that seemed familiar or suggestive of past events...then, it struck me.

The ambulances-for-terrorists scandal (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin_ambulances_for_terrorists.php3)

[velik_m]

UN troops operate on mandates, if mandate states that they must not intervene or attack hostile forces then they won't. If they want UN troops to be more effective they must give them more power/full authority. If they are there just as observers they will just observe.

[Yonivore]

UN troops operate on mandates, if mandate states that they must not intervene or attack hostile forces then they won't. If they want UN troops to be more effective they must give them more power/full authority. If they are there just as observers they will just observe.
Or, they will help the terrorists.

The UN should be pulled out if hostilities occur.

[Yonivore]

STOLEN FROM CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER (http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer072806.php3):


When the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor, it did not respond with a parallel "proportionate" attack on a Japanese naval base. It launched a four-year campaign that killed millions of Japanese, reduced Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki to a cinder, and turned the Japanese home islands to rubble and ruin. Disproportionate? No. When one is wantonly attacked by an aggressor, one has every right — legal and moral — to carry the fight until the aggressor is disarmed and so disabled that it cannot threaten one's security again. That's what it took with Japan.

Britain was never invaded by Germany in World War II. Did it respond to the blitz and V-1 and V-2 rockets with "proportionate" aerial bombardment of Germany? Of course not. Churchill orchestrated the greatest land invasion in history that flattened and utterly destroyed Germany, killing untold innocent German women and children in the process.

The perversity of today's international outcry lies in the fact that there is indeed a disproportion in this war, a radical moral asymmetry between Hezbollah and Israel: Hezbollah is deliberately trying to create civilian casualties on both sides while Israel is deliberately trying to minimize civilian casualties, also on both sides.
What say the Hezbollah apologists? Exactly why did Hezbollah attack Israel?

[velik_m]

STOLEN FROM CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER (http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer072806.php3):


What say the Hezbollah apologists? Exactly why did Hezbollah attack Israel?

because Israel occupied Lebanon.

[Yonivore]

So, the Hezbollah say they invaded Israel, killed 8 IDF soldiers, and kidnapped 2 others so that Israel would be extorted into a prisoner exchange. Their idiotic miscalculation aside, just who do you think they wanted in exchange for the 2 IDF soldiers' lives? And, is their demand reasonable?

From a BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5217882.stm):


Israel will not exchange them for the prisoner Hezbollah wants most, Samir Qantar, who attacked a block of flats in Nahariha in 1979, killing a father and his daughter (the latter by smashing her head in).
That's the sanitized version of this monster's crime. Here, in the words of the wife and mother (http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Prosecute_Abu_Abbas.asp), is what happened:


Abu Abbas, the former head of a Palestinian terrorist group who was captured in Iraq on April 15, is infamous for masterminding the 1985 hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro. But there are probably few who remember why Abbas's terrorists held the ship and its 400-plus passengers hostage for two days. It was to gain the release of a Lebanese terrorist named Samir Kuntar, who is locked up in an Israeli prison for life. Kuntar's name is all but unknown to the world. But I know it well. Because almost a quarter of a century ago, Kuntar murdered my family.

It was a murder of unimaginable cruelty, crueler even than the murder of Leon Klinghoffer, the American tourist who was shot on the Achille Lauro and dumped overboard in his wheelchair. Kuntar's mission against my family, which never made world headlines, was also masterminded by Abu Abbas. And my wish now is that this terrorist leader should be prosecuted in the United States, so that the world may know of all his terrorist acts, not the least of which is what he did to my family on April 22, 1979.

It had been a peaceful Sabbath day. My husband, Danny, and I had picnicked with our little girls, Einat, 4, and Yael, 2, on the beach not far from our home in Nahariya, a city on the northern coast of Israel, about six miles south of the Lebanese border. Around midnight, we were asleep in our apartment when four terrorists, sent by Abu Abbas from Lebanon, landed in a rubber boat on the beach two blocks away. Gunfire and exploding grenades awakened us as the terrorists burst into our building. They had already killed a police officer. As they charged up to the floor above ours, I opened the door to our apartment. In the moment before the hall light went off, they turned and saw me. As they moved on, our neighbor from the upper floor came running down the stairs. I grabbed her and pushed her inside our apartment and slammed the door.

Outside, we could hear the men storming about. Desperately, we sought to hide. Danny helped our neighbor climb into a crawl space above our bedroom; I went in behind her with Yael in my arms. Then Danny grabbed Einat and was dashing out the front door to take refuge in an underground shelter when the terrorists came crashing into our flat.

They held Danny and Einat while they searched for me and Yael, knowing there were more people in the apartment. I will never forget the joy and the hatred in their voices as they swaggered about hunting for us, firing their guns and throwing grenades. I knew that if Yael cried out, the terrorists would toss a grenade into the crawl space and we would be killed. So I kept my hand over her mouth, hoping she could breathe. As I lay there, I remembered my mother telling me how she had hidden from the Nazis during the Holocaust. "This is just like what happened to my mother," I thought.

As police began to arrive, the terrorists took Danny and Einat down to the beach. There, according to eyewitnesses, one of them shot Danny in front of Einat so that his death would be the last sight she would ever see. Then he smashed my little girl's skull in against a rock with his rifle butt. That terrorist was Samir Kuntar.

By the time we were rescued from the crawl space, hours later, Yael, too, was dead. In trying to save all our lives, I had smothered her.
And there are people in this forum who believe the Hezbollah have a legitimate position. Un-frickin'-believable.

I do like what our U.N. Ambassador John Bolton had to say in his opening remarks at yesterday's confirmation hearing:


We are actively engaged in New York to identify lasting solutions to bring about a permanent peace in the Middle East. To do so, however, requires that we have a shared understanding of the problem. The United States has held the firm view that the root cause of the problem is terrorism – and that this terrorism is solely and directly responsible for the situation we find ourselves in today. This terrorism manifests itself, not only in the form of Hezbollah and Hamas, but also in their state sponsors in Tehran and Damascus. We should all take note, particularly Iran and Syria, of the important statement from the Arab League for its courage and conviction in condemning Hezbollah for its role in instigating this latest round of violence.

We take note that some Member States have called for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah - but we must ask our colleagues: how do you negotiate and maintain a ceasefire with a terrorist organization, one which does not even recognize the right of Israel to exist? The United States has no confidence that Hezbollah would honor an unconditional ceasefire. History shows us that it would only allow them time to regroup and plan their next wave of kidnappings and attacks against Israel. The United States seeks an end to the violence that afflicts innocent civilians, and for that very reason we are working for the conditions that will make a real cease fire possible and permanent. Our aim is to address the underlying cause of the violence in southern Lebanon – namely terrorism.

[clambake]

Who said they have a legitimate position?

I think your confused. Only in the minds of hezbollah does legitimate position exist. Do you understand the difference? I don't think there are any hezbollah cheerleaders in this place.

Well, maybe "please don't ban me"

[Yonivore]

because Israel occupied Lebanon.
Israel completely pulled out in 2000, pursuant to a UNSC resolution that also placed UNIFIL peacekeepers in Southern Lebanon that were supposed to insure that Hezbollah disarmed.

Again, why did Hezbollah attack Israel this month?

[Yonivore]

Who said they have a legitimate position?

I think your confused. Only in the minds of hezbollah does legitimate position exist. Do you understand the difference? I don't think there are any hezbollah cheerleaders in this place.

Well, maybe "please don't ban me"
And, velik_m apparently.

[velik_m]

i don't cheer for Hezbollah, i just don't like Israel's policy and i think it will be their undoing.

[Yonivore]

i don't cheer for Hezbollah, i just don't like Israel's policy and i think it will be their undoing.
What should have been Israel's policy?

[MannyIsGod]

Does Yonivore have the ability to form his own thoughts? I wonder.

[Yonivore]

Does Yonivore have the ability to form his own thoughts? I wonder.
Is that some kind of code for, "Israel should just let Hezbollah annihilate all the Jews?" Is that your solution for what the Israeli policy should be? Because, that was the question.

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, that is exactly what it is code for. Nice job.

[MannyIsGod]

If blogs didn't exsist, how would Yonivore know what his opinions were?

[Yonivore]

If blogs didn't exsist, how would Yonivore know what his opinions were?
So, unable to think of a Hezbollah defense?

[MannyIsGod]

Why would I want to defend Hezbollah?

[Yonivore]

Why would I want to defend Hezbollah?
I can't think of a reason. So, you think Israel is justified in their attempt to crush the Hezbollah presence in Southern Lebanon? And, if not, why not?

[ChumpDumper]

I dont have a problem with Israel's attacking Hezbollah. They're problem is everyone and everything they are destroying that happen to not be Hezbollah. You can talk about Pearl Harbor all you want, but seeing as Hezbollah is not a country, you'd be better off comparing it to our action against the insurgency in Iraq. Do we have a scorched-earth policy there?

[MannyIsGod]

I tell you what Yonivore. I'll go post a blog saying what I've said numerous times over the past 2 weeks in this forum becuase you apparently can't grasp it.

Here are some quotes:



Even if their aim was to destroy Hezbollah, then fucking do it. Send ground troops in and do the job that Lebanon can't, but bombing Beriut makes no sense! If Israel wants to destroy this group, then so be it. I can't blame them for that. But once agian, they go about things in a really stupid way and attack people that aren't even involved.
No where have I condemed Israel for acting out against Hezbollah. They have a right to defend their citizens. But they're actions are fucking idiotic. If they want to rid themselves of the group, then attack the group do not attack the people of Lebanon. Is Hezbollah any weaker today after days and days of bombing? No. Are there people in Lebanon now who will be less sympathetic to the Israeli situation in the future? Fuck yes. There are also people that are pissed at Hezbollah, but for the most part those are the exact same people that were pissed off at them last week.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

the UN is a world wide joke. My two cents :smokin

[Yonivore]

I tell you what Yonivore. I'll go post a blog saying what I've said numerous times over the past 2 weeks in this forum becuase you apparently can't grasp it.

Here are some quotes:
And as has been said time and time again, Hezbollah had command and control facilities in Beirut. Iran and Syria were supplying Hezbollah through Lebanese infrastructures --- airports, roads, and such.

Isn't cutting command and control plus severing supply lines a fundamental strategy in any war? Yes, it's a shame for the Lebanese people but, damn, that doesn't change the fact the Hezbollah has insinuated themselves into that country like a cancer and that it's just impossible to have a war with them without causing harm to the Lebanese.

[Yonivore]

I dont have a problem with Israel's attacking Hezbollah. They're problem is everyone and everything they are destroying that happen to not be Hezbollah. You can talk about Pearl Harbor all you want, but seeing as Hezbollah is not a country, you'd be better off comparing it to our action against the insurgency in Iraq. Do we have a scorched-earth policy there?
And, they're not scorching the earth in Lebanon either. Just the earth occupied by Hezbollah.

[ChumpDumper]

Which of course turns all of Lebanon against Israel.

Mission accomplished.

[Yonivore]

Which of course turns all of Lebanon against Israel.

Mission accomplished.
Again, what were Israel's options?

[Yonivore]

Which of course turns all of Lebanon against Israel.

Mission accomplished.
I do think what Israel does after Hezbollah is destroyed is crucial. Helping to rebuild the Lebanese infrastructure would be a good start.

[MannyIsGod]

You're assuming Hezbollah will be destroyed.

[Yonivore]

You're assuming Hezbollah will be destroyed.
I believe they will be cleared out of Southern Lebanon and that Iran and Syria will be "persuaded" to quit supporting them and that, as a result, they will wither and die.

Yeah, they'll be destroyed.

You still haven't said what you thought Israel's options were. I'm interested to know how you believe Israel should have responded to the attack.

[MannyIsGod]

I have no problem with strikes targeted primarly on Hezbollah positions. But there have been a lot of attacks on anything loosely connected with Hezbollah in any way. These attacks have done very little if anything to help an Israeli military goal but have done much to hurt the Lebanese people. The destruction of infrastructure does NOTHING to stop Hezbollah but it does an incredible amount of damage to the Lebanese economy and chances for reconstruction.

The Lebanese army is weak because they have no money. Just when it looked like they would have money come into the country through tourism and a rising economy, Israel destroys the country. It is short sighted and detrimental to the long term solution for the region.

You don't destroy groups like Hezbollah through the air. You just don't. If the Israeli govenrment were serious about doing this right, they would have undertaken action that would actually provide a long term solution. Right now the entire world is asking for a cease fire and it isn't goig to happen because it quite frankly doesn't make sense for either side. Once again, there is a conflict in the region with no long term exit strategy other than the improbable "destruction of -insert group here-".

There is one fundemental truth to the whole situation in that part of the world. It will not be solved with military action. They've been trying to bomb each other into oblivion for 60 years now, and neither side is any closer to actually making it happen.

At some point, Israel is going to have to give in to some of Hezbollah's demands. The Hezbollah movment isn't going to go anywhere, and it quite frankly is undefeatable with an Army. At some point there will have to be talks and concessions by each side.

But what should have been done is pretty irrelevant at this point and the historians can debate it. Now that Israel has started with military action, they could at least do so competently and start killing more Hezbollah militiamen as opposed to civilians. If they continue to drop bombs on civilians, the excuse that they are dying becuase Hezbollah is nearby is not going to fly. People in that region are tired of hearing that becuase they hear it all the damn time when it comes to the Palestinians. Every civilian Israel kills - regardless of how justified in their actions they may feel - makes life for Israel that much harder. It just adds to the fire. You can't drown a fire with gasoline.

[MannyIsGod]

And if anyone is going to convince Syria of anything, it isnt' going to be the president we currently have in office. This administration needs to wake up the the reality that Syria is an important country that we have to deal with and refusing to step up to the plate and do so is just going to prolong this situation.

The Bush administration has the most stubborn approach to forgein policy that I've ever seen. Whether the other country is North Korea, Iran, or Syria, they always take a foolish self righteous stance that does nothing but prolong resolutions to these situations.

You would think the motherfucker would learn after 6 years of slamming his head against a wall.

[Yonivore]

I have no problem with strikes targeted primarly on Hezbollah positions. But there have been a lot of attacks on anything loosely connected with Hezbollah in any way.
That's just not true.


These attacks have done very little if anything to help an Israeli military goal but have done much to hurt the Lebanese people. The destruction of infrastructure does NOTHING to stop Hezbollah but it does an incredible amount of damage to the Lebanese economy and chances for reconstruction.
Also not true.

See here (http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/). Look at the map of Beirut and the places where Israel has bombed and an explanation of why those places were bombed. Also look at the videos taken by IDF drones and smart bombs of Hezbollah rocket launchers in civilian areas.


The Lebanese army is weak because they have no money. Just when it looked like they would have money come into the country through tourism and a rising economy, Israel destroys the country. It is short sighted and detrimental to the long term solution for the region.
Well, if the UNIFIL (and Lebanon) hadn't spent the past six years allowing Hezbollah to cache weapons and then attack unprovoked, we wouldn't be here, now would we?


You don't destroy groups like Hezbollah through the air. You just don't. If the Israeli govenrment were serious about doing this right, they would have undertaken action that would actually provide a long term solution. Right now the entire world is asking for a cease fire and it isn't goig to happen because it quite frankly doesn't make sense for either side. Once again, there is a conflict in the region with no long term exit strategy other than the improbable "destruction of -insert group here-".
This is yet to be seen. The current hostilities are young. You do realize, of course, that during the same period of time Coalition forces had killed three times as many Afghanistan civilians, right?

Israel has been warning Lebanese civilians by leaflet drops and radio announcements when air raids are going to take place. Name another country that has done that during a war.


There is one fundemental truth to the whole situation in that part of the world. It will not be solved with military action. They've been trying to bomb each other into oblivion for 60 years now, and neither side is any closer to actually making it happen.
Israel has been stopped from completing the task every time they've tried. That's the only reason military action hasn't worked. And, the international community is trying to stop them again.

Nothing but military action will resolve this issue.


At some point, Israel is going to have to give in to some of Hezbollah's demands.
There aren't any reasonable demands left. They've capitulated every since this conflict has existed.

All that is left is national suicide and the release of horrible criminals. What is left for Israel to give in to?


The Hezbollah movment isn't going to go anywhere, and it quite frankly is undefeatable with an Army. At some point there will have to be talks and concessions by each side.
I disagree.


But what should have been done is pretty irrelevant at this point and the historians can debate it.
I'd still be interested in what you think they should have done.


Now that Israel has started with military action, they could at least do so competently and start killing more Hezbollah militiamen as opposed to civilians. If they continue to drop bombs on civilians, the excuse that they are dying becuase Hezbollah is nearby is not going to fly.
Who knows who's doing the counting? Whose counting civilian vs. Hezbollah deaths? Look at those videos on that site and tell me how you tell the good from the bad.


People in that region are tired of hearing that becuase they hear it all the damn time when it comes to the Palestinians. Every civilian Israel kills - regardless of how justified in their actions they may feel - makes life for Israel that much harder. It just adds to the fire. You can't drown a fire with gasoline.
You can't put it out by allowing it to engulf your country either. It's just the better of two bad choices.

Both Japan and Germany became American allies and we bombed the shit out of their countries -- killing a lot of innocent people in the bargain. They understood (eventually, if not at first) just how evil Nazism was. Sad that you can't see the same about Hezbollah.

I believe the Lebanese are more understanding than you are.

[Yonivore]

And if anyone is going to convince Syria of anything, it isnt' going to be the president we currently have in office. This administration needs to wake up the the reality that Syria is an important country that we have to deal with and refusing to step up to the plate and do so is just going to prolong this situation.

The Bush administration has the most stubborn approach to forgein policy that I've ever seen. Whether the other country is North Korea, Iran, or Syria, they always take a foolish self righteous stance that does nothing but prolong resolutions to these situations.

You would think the motherfucker would learn after 6 years of slamming his head against a wall.
Things in the Middle East are changing like no time in history. Your just full of shit. No one is running to aid Hezbollah, Syria and Iran are being pressured to abandon Hezbollah -- by the Arab League of nations no less.

I think this administratioon has pushed that region off high center and toward a resolution.

[Ya Vez]

so how would a democrat resolve all these issues we are having with the world... just curious...

I mean hey it was democrat that dropped atomic bombs on japan...

[velik_m]

I believe they will be cleared out of Southern Lebanon and that Iran and Syria will be "persuaded" to quit supporting them and that, as a result, they will wither and die.

Yeah, they'll be destroyed.

You still haven't said what you thought Israel's options were. I'm interested to know how you believe Israel should have responded to the attack.

That's funny, Israel doesn't think they will destroy Hezbollah.

from http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw1153741681475B253


'We're not trying to destroy Hezbollah'

July 24 2006 at 02:21PM

By Matthew Tostevin

Jerusalem - Israel's offensive in Lebanon is not aimed at totally dismantling Hezbollah but rather at preventing the guerrilla group returning to the border and attacking the Jewish state, a cabinet minister said on Monday.

Public Security Minister Avi Dichter played down expectations for the campaign as security sources said the army believed it had only a week to keep pounding Hezbollah before an international deal would force it to stop.

Dichter said it was up to the international community to disarm Hezbollah under a UN resolution.

Hezbollah has rained rockets on northern Israel despite the offensive
"From an Israeli perspective, the target is not to totally dismantle Hezbollah," Dichter told reporters.

"What we are doing now is to try to send a message to Hizbollah and to the Lebanese government ... hoping that somehow we'll succeed in setting up a new situation between Israel and Hizbollah."

Israel's offensive has killed 370 people in Lebanon, most of them civilians, since Hizbollah abducted two soldiers in a raid on July 12. Hezbollah, which has fired barrages of rockets into Israeli towns, has killed at least 37 Israelis.

Israeli troops battled Hezbollah inside southern Lebanon on Monday and Al Jazeera television said two soldiers were killed. "We are ... trying to destroy every Hezbollah post and position along the line and we are not going to allow Hizbollah to return to the line," said Dichter, who used to head Israel's Shin Bet internal security agency.

Hezbollah has rained rockets on northern Israel despite the offensive and the group's leader, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, said in remarks published on Monday that Israeli incursions would not stop the Katyusha fire.

Diplomacy to end the crisis has intensified and both Israeli security sources and Western diplomats said the army believed it had about one more week to do as much damage to Hezbollah as it could.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who started a visit to the region in Lebanon, said a ceasefire was urgent as long as the right conditions were in place. The United States wants any agreement to remove the threat posed to Israel.

Israel has signalled its approval for the idea of a beefed up peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon that might prevent Hezbollah attacks over the border and help disarm the group, as provided for under a UN resolution.

Dichter said Israel wanted to write a new "Dictionary of Terms" for relations with Hezbollah.

"Trying to write it with bullets and trying to write it with bombs takes a little longer, but it's going to be written," he said. "If they even think of attacking, they will know what price they, or Lebanon, will pay."

[velik_m]

As for how Hezbollah, and Syria and Iran with it, are losing influence in the ME:

Arab leaders fear rise of Hezbollah

By Roger Hardy
BBC Middle East analyst

Hezbollah is riding a wave of popularity on the Arab street. Not since it played a role in forcing Israel to withdraw from southern Lebanon in 2000 has it enjoyed such adulation.

Its leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah is enjoying something akin to a personality cult.

At a time when Arab governments are seen as largely powerless to influence events, Hezbollah is seen as taking on the Israelis - and behind the Israelis, the American superpower.

This has put Arab leaders - in particular those allied to the United States - in a difficult quandary.

At the start of this crisis the rulers of Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan did not hide their view that Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers was "reckless adventurism".

This was unusual enough, but they also openly directed their displeasure at the group's backers, Syria and Iran.

Their stance pleased the Bush administration but was roundly criticised at home.

They were seen as siding with the Israelis against the new champions of the Palestinian cause.

Dark warnings

Now there is a distinct shift.

Washington's Arab friends are pressing urgently for an immediate ceasefire.

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has warned darkly of the danger of a wider regional war.

Saudi television this week organised a day-long appeal - or "telethon" - which raised some $29 million (£15.55 million) for Lebanon.

The Saudi media made much of the fact that the king and the crown prince made handsome personal donations.

In addition the Saudi state has given $1.5 billion (£800 million) to support the Lebanese pound and help rebuild the shattered country.

It is not that these rulers have changed their minds.

They fear the growing influence of Iran and Hezbollah.

They believe the regional balance of power is shifting in Iran's favour.

They think Iran and Hezbollah are trying to hijack the Palestinian cause.

Some Saudi religious figures have gone much further. For them the issue is not so much political as sectarian.

One well-known sheikh, Abdullah bin Jabreen, has issued a fatwa, or religious ruling, declaring it illegal for Muslims to join, support or even pray for Hezbollah.

This reflects the view of conservatives in the Saudi religious establishment that the Shia are not proper Muslims and are not to be trusted.

Joining the bandwagon

But the critics of Hezbollah find themselves in the minority.

The predominant view in the Middle East and the wider Muslim world is overwhelmingly supportive of Hezbollah.

For most people, the Palestinian cause transcends sectarian differences.

Even al-Qaeda, no friend of the Shia, has felt obliged to speak out.

The group's second-in-command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, has issued a video saying no Muslim can stay silent in the face of events in Lebanon.

Al-Qaeda does not want to be upstaged.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/5224650.stm

[jochhejaam]

I believe this story belongs in this thread. Israel has called the area bombed a hub for Hezbulloh.

Israeli Attack on Lebanese Village Kills at Least 56, Sparks Outrage
Sunday, July 30, 2006

QANA, Lebanon — At least 56 people, more than half children, were killed Sunday in an Israeli airstrike that crushed a building, the deadliest attack of the Israeli campaign, raising Lebanon's overall death toll over 500. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice decided to return early to Washington with her diplomatic mission derailed after Lebanese leaders told her not to come.

Lebanon's prime minister said his country would not talk to the Americans over anything but an unconditional cease-fire. Rice, in Jerusalem for talks with Israeli officials, said she was "deeply saddened by the terrible loss of innocent life" but stopped short of calling for an immediate end to the hostilities.

However, she made one of her strongest statements yet saying: "We want a cease-fire as soon as possible."

The United States has resisted world pressure to call for a halt to the fighting, saying it wants first to ensure a deal is in place that will eliminate Hezbollah guerrillas from Israel's border and bring an international force to southern Lebanon.

The missiles struck just after 1 a.m., leveling a three-story building in Qana where two extended families, the Shalhoubs and Hashims, had taken refuge in the basement from heavy Israeli bombardment in the area. Throughout the day, rescue workers were digging through the rubble, lifting out bodies dressed in colorful clothes of women and children. At one point they found a single room with 18 bodies, police said.

"Why are they killing us? What have we done?" screamed Khalil Shalhoub, who was helping pull out the dead until he saw his brother's body taken out on a stretcher. The dead included at least 34 children and 12 adult women, security officials said.

Israel said guerrillas had fired rockets from near the building into northern Israel.

In Beirut, some 5,000 protesters gathered in downtown Beirut, at one point attacking a U.N. building and burning American flags, shouting, "Destroy Tel Aviv, destroy Tel Aviv" and chanting for Hezbollah's ally Syria to hit Israel.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Israel "is not in a hurry to have a cease-fire" before it achieves its goals of decimating Hezbollah.

He told Rice that Israel would need 10 to 14 more days to finish its offensive, according to a senior Israeli government official. The two were expected to meet again in the evening before Rice returns home the next morning.

"We will not stop this battle, despite the difficult incidents this morning," Olmert told his Cabinet after the strike, according to a participant. "We will continue the activity and if necessary it will be broadened without hesitation."

The Lebanese government this week had been putting forward ideas on disarming Hezbollah and deploying an international force in the south. But after the strike, Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said any negotiations on a broader deal were off.

"We will not negotiate until the Israeli war stops shedding the blood of innocent people," he told a press conference. He said the Lebanese government still supported the ideas it offered this week, but would not discuss them with out a stop in fighting.

Rice was in Jerusalem meeting Israeli leaders, and Saniora's office said he told Rice not to come to Beirut. Rice disputed that version, telling reporters, "I called him and told him that I was not coming today, because I felt very strongly that my work toward a cease-fire is really here, today."

A U.S. official later said she had decided to return home Monday morning to work on a U.N. Security Council resolution.

Israel said Hezbollah guerrillas had fired 40 rockets into northern Israel from Qana, wounding five Israelis, before the airstrike — including some rockets launched from near the leveled building.

"We deeply regret the loss of any civilian life and especially when you talk about children who are innocent," Foreign Ministry official Gideon Meir told AP. But he accused Hezbollah of "using their own civilian population as human shields" and said the military had warned people to leave the area.

The attack drew immediate condemnation from the Arab world, with Jordan's King Abdullah II voicing his strongest criticism of his Israeli peace partner yet, calling it an "ugly crime." Israel promised an investigation.

In April 1996 more than 100 Lebanese civilians were killed in Qana in the hills east of the port city of Tyre, in an Israeli artillery shelling of a U.N. base. The civilians had sought refuge with the U.N. to escape Israeli bombardment and the attack sparked an international outcry that helped end an Israeli offensive.

Meanwhile, Israel launched its second ground incursion into southern Lebanon. Before dawn Sunday, Israeli forces backed by heavy artillery fire crossed the border and clashed with Hezbollah guerrillas in the Taibeh Project area, some 1.8 to 2.5 miles inside Lebanon.

Hezbollah said eight Israeli soldiers were killed, while the Israeli army said only that one of its soldiers had been moderately wounded.

Heavy artillery rained down on the nearby villages of Yuhmor and Arnoun as Israeli jets were seen in the skies overhead.

The incursion came after Israeli forces pulled back Saturday from Bint Jbail, the furthest point of their first major ground incursion across the border, launched a week ago. The incursion sparked heavy fighting with Hezbollah guerrillas, who put up a tougher resistance than expected and appeared to still be in the area after the pullback. Bint Jbail is further west along the border from Taibeh.

The United Nations World Food Program canceled an aid convoy's trip to the embattled south, after the Israeli military denied safe passage, the group said in a statement. The six-truck convoy had been scheduled to bring relief supplies to Marjayoun.

Lebanese civilians have suffered the most from the fighting, which broke out after Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid July 12 and killed eight others.

Some 458 Lebanese were killed in the fighting through Saturday — before the attacks on Qana. Thirty-three Israeli soldiers have died, and Hezbollah rocket attacks on northern Israel have killed 18 civilians, Israeli authorities said, correcting earlier reports of 19 civilian dead.

More than 750,000 Lebanese have fled their homes in the fighting. But many thousands more are still believed holed up in the south, taking refuge in schools, hospitals or basements of apartment buildings amid the fighting — many of them too afraid to flee on roads heavily hit by Israeli strikes.

In Qana, Khalil Shalhoub and several other residents said people were simply too terrified to take the road out of the village, which has been attacked repeatedly by rockets and bombs. Charred wreckage and smashed buildings line the roughly 12-kilometer road from Qana to Tyre, where a small amount of humanitarian supplies had arrived. European ships had picked up foreign citizens from Tyre's port, but there were no evacuations of Lebanese.

On Thursday, the Israeli military's Al-Mashriq radio that broadcasts into southern Lebanon warned residents that their villages would be "totally destroyed" if missiles are fired from them. Leaflets with similar messages were dropped in some areas Saturday.

A senior official in the Israeli air force said the village had been warned "several times" that it would be attacked because "hundreds of rockets have been fired from inside the village in the past two weeks, from the backyards, from the squares ... from as close as 50 to 60 meters from this building."

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk about the operation, said Hezbollah guerrillas often fire near buildings then use those buildings as cover but that he did not know if that was the case this time.

Lebanese Defense Minister Elias Murr disputed allegations that Hezbollah was firing missiles from Qana.

"What do you expect Israel to say? Will it say that it killed 40 children and women?" he told Qatar-based al-Jazeera TV station.

[jochhejaam]

Israel has apologized and alledgedly has video showing hezbulloh rockets being fired for the area. They also said that Hezbulloh was using the building for cover and that they had repeatedly asked the civilians to leave the bldg.


Reports now coming in that Israel is casting doubt that it was their missles that downed the bldg.
Skepticism abounds, even from the U.S.

Note: The rules of war are to protect innocent civilians. Hezbulloh by policy uses civilians as shields, attacks from heavily populated areas and has indiscriminately fired roughly 100 rockets a day into heavily populated Israeli cities.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50

Straight from a UN soldier on site:


"What I can tell you is this," he wrote in an e-mail to CTV dated July 18. "We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both (Israeli) artillery and aerial bombing.

"The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters (sic) of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters (sic) from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, that was one of the four that was killed due to tactical necessity after calling the Israelis ten times.

[IceColdBrewski]

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50

Straight from a UN soldier on site:

I was gonna post that in this thread a couple days ago but figured, why bother? The NBADans of the world won't listen anyway. Here's the one I read.




July 27, 2006 by Ricki Hollander

New York Times Story on UN Position Hit by Israel Omits Crucial Context



A July 27 article in the New York Times about four UN officers killed in an outpost hit by Israeli fire ("U.N. Says It Protested to Israel for 6 Hours During Attack That Killed 4 Observers in Lebanon" by Warren Hoge), omitted crucial context about Hezbollah firing from or near UN positions. By contrast, the Associated Press reported that "U.N. officials said Hezbollah militants had been operating in the area of the post near the eastern end of the border with Israel, a routine tactic to prevent Israel from attacking them."

The Times article cited UN assistant secretary general for peacekeeping operations Jane Holl Lute saying "no Hezbollah activity was reported in the area" at the time, and suggested that all the firing near UNIFIL positions in recent days was from Israel’s side:

Firing continued during the rescue operation despite repeated requests to the I.DF. for an abatement," she [Ms. Lute] said, speaking of the Israeli Defense Forces.

She said that Unifil had reported 145 incidents of "close firings" in recent days with several patrol bases taking direct hits and sustaining damage to buildings, equipment and vehicles.

But according to a July 18 email from Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener, one of the officers killed at the UN’s Khiam outpost on July 25, this was certainly not the case. In his report, published on CTV’s website, Kruedener asserted:

Team Sierra is currently observing both IDF/IAF and Hezbollah military clashes from our vantage point which has a commanding view of the IDF positions on the Golan mountains to our east and the IDF positions along the Blue Line to our south, as well as, most of the Hezbollah static positions in and around our patrol Base. It appears that the lion's share of fighting between the IDF and Hezbollah has taken place in our area. On the night of 16 July, at 2125 hrs, a large firefight broke out between the Hezbollah and the IDF near a village called Majidyye and lasted for one hour and 40 minutes....

...we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.

And Retired Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie explained in an interview with CBC that Major Kruedener had sent emails indicating that Hezbollah soldiers were "all over his position." He said:

We received emails from him a few days ago, and he was describing the fact that he was taking fire within, in one case, three meters of his position for tactical necessity, not being targeted. Now that’s veiled speech in the military. What he was telling us was Hezbollah soldiers were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them. And that’s a favorite trick by people who don’t have representation in the UN. They use the UN as shields knowing that they can’t be punished for it.

It is equally clear from UNIFIL press releases over the past week that there was firing near and around UN positions in recent days. According to the releases, Hezbollah opened fire on a UNIFIL convoy, and repeatedly shot from the area of UN positions. In fact, one unarmed UN observer was seriously wounded by Hezbollah fire. For example:

From July 20: "Hezbollah firing was also reported from the immediate vicinity of the UN positions in Naqoura and Maroun Al Ras areas at the time of the incidents (Israeli firing)."

From July 24: "One unarmed UN military observer, a member of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL), was seriously wounded by small arms fire in the patrol base in the Marun Al Ras area yesterday afternoon. According to preliminary reports, the fire originated from the Hezbollah side during an exchange with the IDF."

From July 25: "This morning, Hezbollah opened small arms fire at a UNIFIL convoy consisting of two armored personnel carriers (APC) on the road between Kunin and Bint Jubayl. There was some damage to the APCs, but no casualties, and the convoy was obliged to return to Kunin."

From July 26: "Another UN position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Marwahin in the western sector was also directly hit by one mortar round from the Hezbollah side last night. The round did not explode, and there were no casualties or material damage. Another 5 incidents of firing close to UN positions from the Israeli side were reported yesterday. It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and At Tiri."

Why did the New York Times ignore this key information?

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=35&x_article=1160

[Obstructed_View]

Wake me when the carpet bombing of Lebanon begins. Then we can debate the morality of Israel's defense of their country.

[Extra Stout]

Wake me when the carpet bombing of Lebanon begins. Then we can debate the morality of Israel's defense of their country.
Hasn't this been going for for decades?

-------------------------------------------
Insurgent groups do something against Israel.

Israel launches a campaign against said insurgent groups.

Civilians get killed.

A bunch of nations issue diplomatic condemnations against Israel.

The U.S. negotiates a cease-fire.

Wait six months and repeat.

[Hook Dem]

Hasn't this been going for for decades?

-------------------------------------------
Insurgent groups do something against Israel.

Israel launches a campaign against said insurgent groups.

Civilians get killed.

A bunch of nations issue diplomatic condemnations against Israel.

The U.S. negotiates a cease-fire.

Wait six months and repeat.
Congratulations!!!! You are the only one who understands the plan!

[Obstructed_View]

Hasn't this been going for for decades?

No, because carpet bombing would actually solve the problem.

[RandomGuy]

Yeah those fuckers. At least muslims don't kill anyone by mistake. Maybe the Israelis should adopt that policy. Making any attempt to limit collateral damage seems to be doing them zero good, since critics can suggest that Israel is targeting civilians with a straight face. If Israel is targeting civilians, they are doing a piss-poor job of it since the ratio is less than one dead per bomb dropped.

Heh, that is a damn good point.

[RandomGuy]

I believe they will be cleared out of Southern Lebanon and that Iran and Syria will be "persuaded" to quit supporting them and that, as a result, they will wither and die.

Yeah, they'll be destroyed.

You still haven't said what you thought Israel's options were. I'm interested to know how you believe Israel should have responded to the attack.

I hope this actually comes to pass.

I doubt Syria or Iran will be persuaded in this manner, but we can hope.