It is a Jihad for the sake of God and will last until (our) religion prevails

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It is a Jihad for the sake of God and will last until (our) religion prevails


All the world is a battlefield open in front of us

Ayman al-Zawahri, July 27, 2006.


Sadly, libs will still think we can just withdraw our troops from that part of the world and they will go away. I have never seen a more direct statement by anyone from AQ about what we're dealing with, maybe some of you otherwise ignorant fools will get a clue after this one.

But I doubt it.

[boutons_]

"we can just withdraw our troops from that part of the world and they will go away"

who said or thinks that? link please.

With our troops in Iraq, the terrorist have poured in by the 1000s where they weren't before, while the Taliban and tribal/drug warlards resurge in Afghanistan. The red-state dumbshits call this progress.

What is absolutely clear is that no progress is being made in Iraq, the civil war is well under way, dubya/dichkhead/rummy don't have a fucking clue about how to get the USA out of Iraq.

"last throes" "turning points" "elections" "fake constitution", spin spin spin.

3000 Iraqis killed per month.

and dubya fiddles his same old tune "stay the course" and acts like he's done his job.

[clambake]

If you believe every word of Al-zawahari, then you believe every word from the White House.

Step right up and pick a winner!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

yeah, I don't think its a matter of wether you should stay or not, or even wether you want to stay or not. Right now, its about wether or not you can afford to stay in Iraq, and whoever thinks you can isn't paying too much attention. Ever heard the frase "don't bite more than you can chew" well guess what, you're half way there.

[Ocotillo]

Sadly we are chasing our tail in Iraq while Pakistan harbors Bin Laden and his side kick baba louie.

Think about that. Mushareff is one bullet away from chaos in Pakistan with some guys we don't like taking over. They have a guy who they slapped on the wrist for giving nuclear secrets to Iran, Libya and N. Korea

For all appearances it looks like Pakistan and India may ramp up the arms race again.

Israel is doing a scorched earth policy in Lebanon really winning the hearts and minds of the non-Hezbollah population.

Turkey is sabre rattling with the PKK in northern Iraq.

No wonder Zawahri is feeling his oats. Damn, go get Bin Laen for God's sake.

[T-Pain]

im gonna put a jihad on YOU!!!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

With our troops in Iraq, the terrorist have poured in by the 1000s where they weren't before, while the Taliban and tribal/drug warlards resurge in Afghanistan. The red-state dumbshits call this progress.

Some of us dumbshits with degrees in history and world politics are smart enough to know that history will show the ragheads showing up in Afghanistan and Iraq is a great thing. That means they aren't showing up in America and hijacking planes to fly into buildings.

Let's see... unarmed civilians in buildings and on planes, or the best armed fighting force in the world (U.S. military). Hmm, who would I rather have the hajis attacking...



Sadly we are chasing our tail in Iraq while Pakistan harbors Bin Laden and his side kick baba louie.

Think about that. Mushareff is one bullet away from chaos in Pakistan with some guys we don't like taking over.

If the left had the balls for it, we would have just nuked the Afghanistan/Pakistan border after 9/11 and we wouldn't be where we are.

It's my big criticism with the Bush administration. Sadly, we are fighting the war on terror like we fought Vietnam - too much concern for what the media and polls and the anti-war folks are saying.

If you're going to fight a war, you do it how Truman did it in WWII - the only way to win is the complete and utter destruction of your enemy.

We should have nuked the Afghan/Pakistan border on September 12, 2001, but then you've got the pussies on the left screaming for impeachment, and the other half of the equation is that you open pandora's box as far as the nuclear scenario goes.

It sucks but it is what it is. The sad thing is if my gut is right several years from now a nuke is going to go off in an American city, possibly several, as the penultimate 'event' dreamed up by bin Laden.

When that day comes, we will respond in kind by wiping out any Islamofascist regions we know of that can be taken out with nukes. And the reason I say it's sad is twofold.

One is that a lot of Americans are going to have to die at the hand of radical Islam for people in this country, including those on BOTH sides of the aisle in D.C., to get the hint (of course D.C. would probably be target numero uno, so that point may be moot).

The second is that it could have been prevented if we would have gone for the kill shot on the Afghan/Pakistan border when we knew all the assholes were in the same area.

In radical Islam, we are facing the same fucked up idealism that the world ultimately had to wipe out with WWII - Naziism.

But too many people in the world today are too PC, too much of pussies, to recognize it and work towards doing something about it.

[Nesterofish]

Just go ahaed and kill all the Muslimms alrady. End of problem.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

If the left had the balls for it, we would have just nuked the Afghanistan/Pakistan border after 9/11 and we wouldn't be where we are.

It's my big criticism with the Bush administration. Sadly, we are fighting the war on terror like we fought Vietnam - too much concern for what the media and polls and the anti-war folks are saying.

If you're going to fight a war, you do it how Truman did it in WWII - the only way to win is the complete and utter destruction of your enemy.

We should have nuked the Afghan/Pakistan border on September 12, 2001, but then you've got the pussies on the left screaming for impeachment, and the other half of the equation is that you open pandora's box as far as the nuclear scenario goes.

It sucks but it is what it is. The sad thing is if my gut is right several years from now a nuke is going to go off in an American city, possibly several, as the penultimate 'event' dreamed up by bin Laden.

When that day comes, we will respond in kind by wiping out any Islamofascist regions we know of that can be taken out with nukes. And the reason I say it's sad is twofold.

One is that a lot of Americans are going to have to die at the hand of radical Islam for people in this country, including those on BOTH sides of the aisle in D.C., to get the hint (of course D.C. would probably be target numero uno, so that point may be moot).

The second is that it could have been prevented if we would have gone for the kill shot on the Afghan/Pakistan border when we knew all the assholes were in the same area.

In radical Islam, we are facing the same fucked up idealism that the world ultimately had to wipe out with WWII - Naziism.

But too many people in the world today are too PC, too much of pussies, to recognize it and work towards doing something about it.
you think not wanting to kill millions of innocent people is just being PC?? I have to say Aggie, we've had our disagreements in the past, but after having read this bullshit I think you are a fucking moron!

[MannyIsGod]

At some point the argument has to be realized. At some point the debate has to commence in earnest and people have to stop slinging stupid rhetoric all around. At some point there actually has to be constructive dialouge as far as a way to secure this country so that we don't have to deal with the entire world pissed off at us.

And make no mistake about it, almost the entire world is VERY pissed off at us at the moment.

I don't understand why AHF thinks that another rhetoric filled speech from an AQ figurehead contains some breakthrough information. It is no more relevent to understanding the situation in that portion of the world than any of Bush' stupid "Bring it on" comments are. They're political devices meant to rally support in the same way. It is fucking propaganda.

If you want to sway me as to what needs to be done with our forgien policy, you're never going to do it with a snippit of a stupid fucking speech no matter who it originates from. Why don't you try with a factual study or 2 on the motivations of terrorists along with a study on the effects of Americna middle east forgien policy.

I'm tired of the same old bullshit. Bring substance or just stfu already.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

At some point the argument has to be realized. At some point the debate has to commence in earnest and people have to stop slinging stupid rhetoric all around. At some point there actually has to be constructive dialouge as far as a way to secure this country so that we don't have to deal with the entire world pissed off at us.

And make no mistake about it, almost the entire world is VERY pissed off at us at the moment.

I don't understand why AHF thinks that another rhetoric filled speech from an AQ figurehead contains some breakthrough information. It is no more relevent to understanding the situation in that portion of the world than any of Bush' stupid "Bring it on" comments are. They're political devices meant to rally support in the same way. It is fucking propaganda.

If you want to sway me as to what needs to be done with our forgien policy, you're never going to do it with a snippit of a stupid fucking speech no matter who it originates from. Why don't you try with a factual study or 2 on the motivations of terrorists along with a study on the effects of Americna middle east forgien policy.

I'm tired of the same old bullshit. Bring substance or just stfu already.
A-FUCKING-MEN!

[Nesterofish]

At some point the argument has to be realized. At some point the debate has to commence in earnest and people have to stop slinging stupid rhetoric all around. At some point there actually has to be constructive dialouge as far as a way to secure this country so that we don't have to deal with the entire world pissed off at us.

And make no mistake about it, almost the entire world is VERY pissed off at us at the moment.

I don't understand why AHF thinks that another rhetoric filled speech from an AQ figurehead contains some breakthrough information. It is no more relevent to understanding the situation in that portion of the world than any of Bush' stupid "Bring it on" comments are. They're political devices meant to rally support in the same way. It is fucking propaganda.

If you want to sway me as to what needs to be done with our forgien policy, you're never going to do it with a snippit of a stupid fucking speech no matter who it originates from. Why don't you try with a factual study or 2 on the motivations of terrorists along with a study on the effects of Americna middle east forgien policy.

I'm tired of the same old bullshit. Bring substance or just stfu already.And while you'e sitting there looking for consturctive dialog, OOOOH Zawahiri nukes your city and your dead. We can put WHY DO THEY HATE US on your tomstonre.

[MannyIsGod]

Because you can't defend your country while looking for a long term solution at the same time?

[Nesterofish]

Because you can't defend your country while looking for a long term solution at the same time?
Dead people can't be terorists then that is a long term soltuion.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

And while you'e sitting there looking for consturctive dialog, OOOOH Zawahiri nukes your city and your dead. We can put WHY DO THEY HATE US on your tomstonre.
yes, because nuking the fuck out of the mid east is going to bring about the end of terrorism, right? yeah, bright fucking idea, seeing as though Islam hasn't proven to be that resilient right? and nevermind what the rest of the world thinks about it right? Using a nuclear bomb has nothing to do with balls like our friend Einstein over there seems to think.

[Nesterofish]

yes, because nuking the fuck out of the mid east is going to bring about the end of terrorism, right? yeah, bright fucking idea, seeing as though Islam hasn't proven to be that resilient right? and nevermind what the rest of the world thinks about it right? Using a nuclear bomb has nothing to do with balls like our friend Einstein over there seems to think.They think were weak becuase we dont take care of busienss. LIke Israel they gave away land and so they got attacked more. If we nuke them we show them who is boss. If not then if you kill 90 percent of the Muslkms then that's 90 percent fewer peor-ple to cbecome terroriysts.

[Burly_Man]

Dead people can't be terorists then that is a long term soltuion.

But they can be martyrs. Religion, no matter how poorly interpreted, only flourishes when oppressed.

[MannyIsGod]

Dead people can't be terorists then that is a long term soltuion.Yeah, good luck with killing every terrorist out there. This is novel thinking, and I'm sure nobody has ever thought of it before. I wonder why it hasn't been done?

The sad thing is that you're pretty damn representative of the American demographic and the stupidy that clogs your brain and the rest of the idiots running around this country is the reason nothing ever gets done.

Congrats.

[Burly_Man]

They think were weak becuase we dont take care of busienss. LIke Israel they gave away land and so they got attacked more. If we nuke them we show them who is boss. If not then if you kill 90 percent of the Muslkms then that's 90 percent fewer peor-ple to cbecome terroriysts.

Why stop at 90% if there's a chance 1% of the Arab Population could potentially cause serious harm?

They don't think we are weak because we aren't taking care of business, they think we are stupid for having our Foreign Policy in the Middle East hijacked by both Israel and Iran at the same time.

[MannyIsGod]

Why stop at 90% if there's a chance 1% 0f the Arab Population could potentially cause serious harm?

They don't think we are weak because we aren't taking care of business, they think we are stupid for having our Foreign Policy in the Middle East hijacked by both Israel and Iraq at the same time.

[ChumpDumper]

They think were weak becuase we dont take care of busienss. LIke Israel they gave away land and so they got attacked more. If we nuke them we show them who is boss. If not then if you kill 90 percent of the Muslkms then that's 90 percent fewer peor-ple to cbecome terroriysts.This is true. Our only choices are nuking, well, someplace and murdering over 1 billion people based solely on their religion. God has no choice but to be on our side -- we could nuke him too.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

They think were weak becuase we dont take care of busienss. LIke Israel they gave away land and so they got attacked more. If we nuke them we show them who is boss. If not then if you kill 90 percent of the Muslkms then that's 90 percent fewer peor-ple to cbecome terroriysts.
incredible... just un-fucking-believable... nobody thinks the US is weak, and dropping a nuke will NOT show ANYONE who is boss. What it will do is show everyone who has complete fucking disregard for innocent human life, and it will also destroy any credibility the US has left, and I say left because it is that kind of thinking that has lost much of it already.

Right now the US might not be very popular, I can't deny that, but you are respected and in spite of what you people might think, America is still regarded as a place of civility and forward thinking, a place where the thought of using a nuclear bomb on innocent civilians IS NOT A FUCKING OPTION!! I am not saying sit idly and get nuked, by all means defend yourselves, but do it honorably, don't lower yourselves to their standards where human life has little to no value.

[Nesterofish]

Hey better them then me and my family

[MannyIsGod]

The United States will not be dropping any nuclear bombs anytime soon. Even if a terrorist organization detonated a nuclear weapon in this country, I'm pretty sure that there would not be a retaliatory strike with nuclear weapons unless it became clear that there was a nation state directly involved in the attack.

Nuking the Middle East is a non factor and if you guys want to go debate it feel free, but I'd rather look at reality instead.

[Burly_Man]

Hey better them then me and my family

In that case, make sure you know who you are aiming at. There has been way too much indiscriminate killing going around already.

[Nesterofish]

Yeah, good luck with killing every terrorist out there. This is novel thinking, and I'm sure nobody has ever thought of it before. I wonder why it hasn't been done?

The sad thing is that you're pretty damn representative of the American demographic and the stupidy that clogs your brain and the rest of the idiots running around this country is the reason nothing ever gets done.

Congrats.Yeah you libruls think your sp smart but you are the ones who cause all the problems make America weak. Back when everyone was simple god-fearing folk that's ewhen America became greta.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

The United States will not be dropping any nuclear bombs anytime soon. Even if a terrorist organization detonated a nuclear weapon in this country, I'm pretty sure that there would not be a retaliatory strike with nuclear weapons unless it became clear that there was a nation state directly involved in the attack.

Nuking the Middle East is a non factor and if you guys want to go debate it feel free, but I'd rather look at reality instead.
yeah, I'm sure the US won't, I'm just trying to make my point with fish here, and perhaps Aggie over there.

[Yonivore]

Yeah, good luck with killing every terrorist out there. This is novel thinking, and I'm sure nobody has ever thought of it before. I wonder why it hasn't been done?
You don't have to kill them all. They can be pacified. Just not by this endless cycle of hostility and appeasement. You have to defeat them decisively and al Qaeda and Hizbollah are as good a place to start as anywhere.


The sad thing is that you're pretty damn representative of the American demographic and the stupidy that clogs your brain and the rest of the idiots running around this country is the reason nothing ever gets done.
Thankfully, you're not representative of the vast majority of Americans.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Thankfully, you're not representative of the vast majority of Americans.
yes, because you'd rather have this


Yeah you libruls think your sp smart but you are the ones who cause all the problems make America weak. Back when everyone was simple god-fearing folk that's ewhen America became greta.
be representative of the vast majotiry of Americans right? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

[MannyIsGod]

Sure, let me know when the next time a major terrorist organization was beaten into submission. Or the last time for that matter.

[Guru of Nothing]

Sure, let me know when the next time a major terrorist organization was beaten into submission. Or the last time for that matter.

Khadafi?

[MannyIsGod]

Libya was a state that sponsored terrorism, not a terrorist organization. That in itself is a major distinction, but to go further they weren't beaten into submission they were enticed into compliance with some huge carrots.

[Spurminator]

You guys are treating Nesterofish WAY too much like a legitimate poster.

[Guru of Nothing]

Libya was a state that sponsored terrorism, not a terrorist organization. That in itself is a major distinction, but to go further they weren't beaten into submission they were enticed into compliance with some huge carrots.

To me, states that sponsor terrorism ARE terrorist organizations. I'm not seeing a distinction.

Didn't Ronald Reagan lob a bomb in Khadafi's vicinity which nearly took out his family (small children included)? History escapes me, but if I'm right, I would not call that a "carrot."

[DeMarcus Bryant]

Just go ahaed and kill all the Muslimms alrady. End of problem.
ok Hitler.

[MannyIsGod]

To me, states that sponsor terrorism ARE terrorist organizations. I'm not seeing a distinction.

Didn't Ronald Reagan lob a bomb in Khadafi's vicinity which nearly took out his family (small children included)? History escapes me, but if I'm right, I would not call that a "carrot."Except that wasn't what made him "fall into line". That came over 12 years later at the end of the Clinton presidency, but it was ignored. Then 9/11 happend, and no one contacted them. Then finally after Iraq, the US decided to negotiate with them and hammered out agreements.

At this point the Bush administration claimed it as a result of the Iraq war, but the truth is that Libya had tried to get these agreements and negotiation before Bush even came into office. They wanted to be a player, and now they're becoming a big player in the region. Coincidence?

You can consider states that sponsor terrorism the same as terrorist organizations but the fact is that they usually have quite different goals. Nations will usually simply use these groups to further political goals while the groups themselves have ideological reason for doing what they do.

For example, Iran and Syria support Hezbollah because they want to harm Israel which therby lifts them. However, Hezbollah has reasons rooted in Lebanese occupation for doing what they do. A Country is always going to be much easier to harm with action than a group is because of the nature of the motivation.

[BIG IRISH]

....Nations will usually simply use these groups to further political goals while the groups themselves have ideological reason for doing what they do.

Excellent post :drunk
did you cut and past or was it an original thought :lol

[boutons_]

"At this point the Bush administration claimed it as a result of the Iraq war, but the truth is that Libya had tried to get these agreements and negotiation before Bush even came into office"

Yes, I remember this big Repug lie when it was exposed by the people who had been following and working with Libya for years before 2000.

The amusing irony with Libya was the Khadaffi was under internal pressure from Islamic fundamentalists, not external pressure from dubya/Iraq, to improve the lot of his people or face a revolution. Libya being able to sell more oil/gas allowed Khadaffi to buy off the fundamentalists.

Fuck dubya, the liar. The Repugs don't even know the meaning of shame or honor.

[jochhejaam]

You guys are treating Nesterofish WAY too much like a legitimate poster.
Birds of a feather, flock together. :lol

[clambake]

Joch and Yoni, could you PLEASE be quiet? I'd like to hear more from Nester. I think his ideas are much more accurate with how middle america thinks.

Nester, do you have any hate literature that you can spare. I'm writing a thesis based on whackjobs in america?

[gtownspur]

I frankly dont give a rats ass what the world thinks. Europe, Russia, and China see the middle East as a piece of ass to manipulate for dominance.

Russia would love to have Iran expand thus giving Russia control over the oil production and thus crippling the economy of the USA.

The fact is, is that the US has been courting the Arab Royalty to be loyal to american interest, and china and Russia want to break the pact between the arab oil sultans, and the yankees. This is the first step, in world power.

France and Germany, have their own oil interest, and trades. Add to the fact that they have a good muslim population that rivals that of the political swing power of hispanics do here.

Lets look at this frankly.

The Arab world hates us in reality. They keep it cool and calm because we are the powerful ones, but once we start to tremble they will reveal their true selves. We are only their buisiness partners and nothing else. In the Mid east, it's all buisiness.

And once you start to realize this and quit acting like John Kerry, and the EU have a better honest solutions, you won't be able to provide a good solution, but will be relegated to condemning Nesterofish's and AHF's rhetoric.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Nice.

Take the word of one idiot as how all of them must feel.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Yeah you libruls think your sp smart but you are the ones who cause all the problems make America weak. Back when everyone was simple god-fearing folk that's ewhen America became greta.

Wow.

[sabar]

SEATTLE (Reuters) - A woman was killed and five other women were wounded on Friday when a gunman opened fire at a Jewish organization in downtown Seattle that last weekend organized a rally in support of Israel.

A Seattle police spokesman said the gunman, who was thought to be acting alone, had been taken into custody but that authorities were "taking every precaution" in searching for explosives and additional suspects.

Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle Vice President Amy Wasser-Simpson told the Seattle Times in a story on its Web site that a man got through security at the building and shouted, "I'm a Muslim American; I'm angry at Israel," then began shooting.

Police did not confirm the report and offered no immediate motive for the shooting. It was not clear if the shooter was specifically targeting women.

A handgun had been found at the scene, police said.

A hospital spokeswoman said at least three of the victims had been taken into surgery for their wounds.

The federation had organized a large rally last weekend to demonstrate support for Israel in its fight against Hizbollah in southern Lebanon.

[ShackO]

They think were weak becuase we dont take care of busienss. LIke Israel they gave away land and so they got attacked more. If we nuke them we show them who is boss. If not then if you kill 90 percent of the Muslkms then that's 90 percent fewer peor-ple to cbecome terroriysts:blah .


How do you know what "they think"........??? You have no idea what you are talking about......... :madrun Stick to crying about your team.....

[ShackO]

Some of us dumbshits with degrees in history and world politics are smart enough to know that history will show the ragheads showing up in Afghanistan and Iraq is a great thing. That means they aren't showing up in America and hijacking planes to fly into buildings.

Let's see... unarmed civilians in buildings and on planes, or the best armed fighting force in the world (U.S. military). Hmm, who would I rather have the hajis attacking...




If the left had the balls for it, we would have just nuked the Afghanistan/Pakistan border after 9/11 and we wouldn't be where we are.

It's my big criticism with the Bush administration. Sadly, we are fighting the war on terror like we fought Vietnam - too much concern for what the media and polls and the anti-war folks are saying.

If you're going to fight a war, you do it how Truman did it in WWII - the only way to win is the complete and utter destruction of your enemy.

We should have nuked the Afghan/Pakistan border on September 12, 2001, but then you've got the pussies on the left screaming for impeachment, and the other half of the equation is that you open pandora's box as far as the nuclear scenario goes.

It sucks but it is what it is. The sad thing is if my gut is right several years from now a nuke is going to go off in an American city, possibly several, as the penultimate 'event' dreamed up by bin Laden.

When that day comes, we will respond in kind by wiping out any Islamofascist regions we know of that can be taken out with nukes. And the reason I say it's sad is twofold.

One is that a lot of Americans are going to have to die at the hand of radical Islam for people in this country, including those on BOTH sides of the aisle in D.C., to get the hint (of course D.C. would probably be target numero uno, so that point may be moot).

The second is that it could have been prevented if we would have gone for the kill shot on the Afghan/Pakistan border when we knew all the assholes were in the same area.

In radical Islam, we are facing the same fucked up idealism that the world ultimately had to wipe out with WWII - Naziism.

But too many people in the world today are too PC, too much of pussies, to recognize it and work towards doing something about it.

I don’t recall reading in any text book the term raghead….. Just were did you get your “degrees in history and world politics” @?????

In your expert opinion do you think the murdering of over 300 civilians in Lebanon is helping or hurting the cause of peace in the Middle East???

:rolleyes

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I don’t recall reading in any text book the term raghead….. Just were did you get your “degrees in history and world politics” @?????

In your expert opinion do you think the murdering of over 300 civilians in Lebanon is helping or hurting the cause of peace in the Middle East???

:rolleyes

It's called slang. It's not in a textook.

As to Israel/Lebanon. There are over 500,000 Israelis living in bunkers because Hezbollah is firing 150 rockets a day into Israel.

As to the cause of peace, there has never been peace in the Middle East, never in its 1500 year existence as far as Islam goes.

There never will be either, until the whole area gets turned into glass.

I started this thread because I figured maybe, just maybe, some of the liberal folks on the left on this site that seem to think we can just back away, bring our troops home, and be okay would see the light.

There isn't going to be a peace, and people need to realize that. It's going to be us or them, and I'd prefer that the good guys win this one.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

It's called slang. It's not in a textook.

As to Israel/Lebanon. There are over 500,000 Israelis living in bunkers because Hezbollah is firing 150 rockets a day into Israel.

As to the cause of peace, there has never been peace in the Middle East, never in its 1500 year existence as far as Islam goes.

There never will be either, until the whole area gets turned into glass.

I started this thread because I figured maybe, just maybe, some of the liberal folks on the left on this site that seem to think we can just back away, bring our troops home, and be okay would see the light.

There isn't going to be a peace, and people need to realize that. It's going to be us or them, and I'd prefer that the good guys win this one.
:lmao the good guys, thats funny. So in your mind the "good guys" would win by killing thousands of innocent women and children. Yeah, I bet that makes sense in that fucked up head of yours

[ShackO]

It's called slang. It's not in a textook.

Slang…....?? Most folks would call that a racial slur. AN insult… But I guess a well educated intellectual like yourself would know better then most folks… :oops


As to Israel/Lebanon. There are over 500,000 Israelis living in bunkers because Hezbollah is firing 150 rockets a day into Israel.

Wow I guess you really are a scholar… Why not provide a link to back up that number… 500,000 cough, cough :spin

As to the cause of peace, there has never been peace in the Middle East, never in its 1500 year existence as far as Islam goes.

What, are you kidding me…… Why not point out some place on this planet that has been peaceful for even a 10th of that time……. EVER!!!!




There never will be either, until the whole area gets turned into glass.

If it is turned to glass or not I don’t know but you are correct…. It will not know peace if history is any example….



I started this thread because I figured maybe, just maybe, some of the liberal folks on the left on this site that seem to think we can just back away, bring our troops home, and be okay would see the light.

I understand that and I don’t mind if you want to tug some chains on the left, hell I like to tug a few chains now and then myself but far to often I find ppl attempting paint a negative picture of ppl that don’t support Israel..

There isn't going to be a peace, and people need to realize that. It's going to be us or them

Well unless you are in Israel it is not us vs them ….>>> It is them vs them…

But I do agree there will not be peace. Certainly not as long as Israel is there….. The Arabs are not going to give up until they get back their “holy land”…… And IMO they will get it back someday…


, and I'd prefer that the good guys win this one.

IMO there is no good guys vs bad guys......



If someone does not support Canada or England no one has anything to say about it… Everybody is always dogging the French……. Nary a peep!!!! But if you say something about Israel you better watch out… FUX THAT!!!!

This is America and we can think and say what we want………… If me and the president are not above criticism, then IMO neither is some other Nation……

[spurster]

The problem is that we don't have someone smart enough to turn the situation to the US advantage.

We're all just idiots on this board. Where are the Marshalls and the Kennans to advise the President Trumans on policies as longterm and farreaching as the Marshall Plan (support of Western Europe) and the Truman Doctrine (containment)? All we've had for some time are idiots in office looking to the next election.

With terrorists, I think you have to have a dual policy (1) to address their (justified) greivances and (2) to snuff them (the unjustified violence) out. Both the carrot and the stick. This kind of approach is necessarily longterm and will be criticized for both appeasement and when we strike out at terrorists or their proxies (such as strikes on Libya). However, what we have now is that one side is absolute evil and the other side absolute good. This works well to get elected, I suppose, but will never get to the root of the problem.

[ShackO]

However, what we have now is that one side is absolute evil and the other side absolute good. This works well to get elected, I suppose, but will never get to the root of the problem.


Yep........ Portraying the other side as the bad guys only serves to keep the sheep in line..

There are no sides here without innocent blood on their hands….

[boutons_]

Here's a guy making a good point about the effect of Israel NOT smashing the shit out of Hezbollah.

=====================

July 30, 2006

Op-Ed Columnist

Cease-Fire to Nowhere

By DAVID BROOKS

There are victory markers strewn across southern Lebanon commemorating the last time Israel withdrew from that land. While reporting a piece for The New Yorker a few years ago, Jeffrey Goldberg would come upon them by the roads. It was like seeing the battle markers at Gettysburg or Antietam, he wrote.

One brightly colored sign, written in both Arabic and (rough) English, marked the spot where “On Oct. 19, 1988 at 1:25 p.m. a martyr car that was body trapped with 500 kilograms of highly exploding materials transformed two Israeli troops into masses of fire and limbs.”

Busloads of tourists would take victory tours and stop at the prominent sights. Before the current war, there were gift shops and, in at least one place, a poster showing a Hezbollah fighter lifting a severed Israeli head. It all testified to the magnetism of a successful idea: that Muslim greatness can be restored through terrorism.

Some people believe that terrorists are driven by desperation, but if you read the statements by Sheik Hassan Nasrallah and other Hezbollah leaders, it’s obvious that their movement has been inspired by opportunity and nourished by success. And the big news last week was that most of the world is calling for an immediate Lebanese cease-fire and another Israeli withdrawal.

If that happens, Nasrallah will be able to build another chain of victory markers. There will be a missile- launcher monument in Tyre. There will be a terror gift shop in Maroun al-Ras. Hell, he’ll probably build a suicide-bomber theme park in Bint Jbail.

Nasrallah himself will become a legend, and teens across the region will be electrified by his glory.

Many of those calling for this immediate cease-fire are people of good will whose anguish over the wartime suffering overrides long-term considerations. Some are European leaders who want Hezbollah destroyed but who don’t want anybody to actually do it. Some are professional diplomats, acolytes of the first-class-cabin fundamentalism that holds that “talks” and “engagement” can iron out any problem, regardless of the interests and beliefs and fanaticisms that make up the underlying reality.

The best of them have a serious case to make. It’s true, they say, that Israel may degrade Hezbollah if it keeps fighting, but it may also sow so much instability that it ends up toppling the same Lebanese government that it is trying to strengthen.

They point to real risks, but if a cease-fire is imposed now, there won’t be only risks. There will be dead certainties. If Hezbollah emerges from this moment still strong, it will tower like a giant over the Lebanese government. Extremist groups around the world will be swamped with recruits. Iran’s prestige will surge. The defenders of nation states and the sponsors of Resolution 1559 will be humiliated. Israel’s deterrence power will be shattered.

It is dead certain that this cease-fire will not last, any more than the cease-fires of ’78 or ’93 or ’96 lasted. And most important, the idea — that the Muslim renaissance will come through terror — will dominate the sky like the bright summer sun.

That idea is the key to the whole string of crises in this decade of jihad. Lebanon is a chance to show that the death cult is not invincible.

To its enormous credit, the Bush administration has kept its focus on that core reality, and it has developed a strategy to reverse the momentum: let Israel weaken Hezbollah, then build an international force to help create a better Lebanon.

Yet, having spent a week on the phone with experts and policy makers, I’d be lying if I said that I was optimistic the strategy will work. The renovation of Lebanon will require scaffolding, and the fact is the scaffolding of the West is corroding at every joint.

The U.S. lacks authority because of Iraq. Over the past few days, Israel has grown wary of getting into Lebanon, because it might have no help getting out. The Europeans, being the Europeans, are again squandering a chance to play a big role in world affairs. The “moderate” Arabs are finding that if you spend a generation inciting hatred of Israel you will wind up prisoner to groups who hate Israel more than you do. The U.N. is simply feckless.

The U.S. is right to resist the calls for a quick-fix cease-fire. But when you step back, you see once again the power of ideas. The terrorists are more unified by their ideas than we in the civilized world are unified by ours.

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

=========================

The cease fire will be charade, Hezbollah will be back, probing the Israeli border, shooting rockets into Israel, killing Israeli civilians.

So the choice for Israel is clear: Lebanese civilians + Hezbollah killed by Israel attacking Hezbollah or Isreali civilians killed by Hezbollah killing Israeli civilians. What would you choose?

[MannyIsGod]

I hate to tell you this, but Israel has already lifted Hezbollah far more than they have hurt them with this conflict. You do not beat terrorist groups with bombs.

[jochhejaam]

I hate to tell you this, but Israel has already lifted Hezbollah far more than they have hurt them with this conflict. You do not beat terrorist groups with bombs.
How do you defeat them?

[ShackO]

I hate to tell you this, but Israel has already lifted Hezbollah far more than they have hurt them with this conflict. You do not beat terrorist groups with bombs.

Exactly........ Not only has their power in Lebanon increased as a result but their status in the Arab world has gone way up..............

[ShackO]

How do you defeat them?

To be honest I don't think Israel can defeat them....

The only way to deal with a situation like this is to do away with the cause....

In this case pack up and leave Israel or perhaps give up "their holy places"..... Jerusalem an international city, and have a viable land base for them to live on etc....

IMO to bomb innocent ppl in an attempt to persuade them to influence terrorist to stop only produces more terrorist.....

You can kill individuals like zarkawi but his cause is so prevalent that his shoes are eagerly filled………

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Picking up and moving? You just don't get it do you? People like bin Laden, Ahmedinijad, they want the whole world to be Muslim. Nasrallah hates the Jews.

If the Jews picked up and moved to Antarctica, Hezbollah would be knitting parkas the day after.

Edited for Manny.

[MannyIsGod]

Nassrallah's fight isn't to convert the world to Islam. For someone who constantly talks about the history of the region you might want to review how stupid that sounds.

[Extra Stout]

To be honest I don't think Israel can defeat them....

The only way to deal with a situation like this is to do away with the cause....

In this case pack up and leave Israel or perhaps give up "their holy places"..... Jerusalem an international city, and have a viable land base for them to live on etc....

IMO to bomb innocent ppl in an attempt to persuade them to influence terrorist to stop only produces more terrorist.....

You can kill individuals like zarkawi but his cause is so prevalent that his shoes are eagerly filled………
The only solution the Arabs will accept is the dismantling of the state of Israel and the exile of all the Jews.

In other words, total defeat.

Israel would rather kill every Muslim on earth than accept that.

Luckily, they don't have to do so. They have weathered these conflagrations off and on for 60 years.

[boutons_]

Here's great op-ed article from Krauthammer/WP. I don't always agree with this guy, but , like David Brooks/NYT, I read his stuff seriously, because he's serious.

I agree with him below.


======================

'Disproportionate' in What Moral Universe?

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, July 28, 2006; A25

What other country, when attacked in an unprovoked aggression across a recognized international frontier, is then put on a countdown clock by the world, given a limited time window in which to fight back, regardless of whether it has restored its own security?

What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities -- every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians -- and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy's infrastructure and strongholds with precision-guided munitions that sometimes have the unintended but unavoidable consequence of collateral civilian death and suffering?

To hear the world pass judgment on the Israel-Hezbollah war as it unfolds is to live in an Orwellian moral universe. With a few significant exceptions (the leadership of the United States, Britain, Australia, Canada and a very few others), the world -- governments, the media, U.N. bureaucrats -- has completely lost its moral bearings.

The word that obviates all thinking and magically inverts victim into aggressor is "disproportionate," as in the universally decried "disproportionate Israeli response."

When the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor, it did not respond with a parallel "proportionate" attack on a Japanese naval base. It launched a four-year campaign that killed millions of Japanese, reduced Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki to cinders, and turned the Japanese home islands into rubble and ruin.

Disproportionate? No. When one is wantonly attacked by an aggressor, one has every right -- legal and moral -- to carry the fight until the aggressor is disarmed and so disabled that it cannot threaten one's security again. That's what it took with Japan.

Britain was never invaded by Germany in World War II. Did it respond to the Blitz and V-1 and V-2 rockets with "proportionate" aerial bombardment of Germany? Of course not. Churchill orchestrated the greatest air campaign and land invasion in history, which flattened and utterly destroyed Germany, killing untold innocent German women and children in the process.

The perversity of today's international outcry lies in the fact that there is indeed a disproportion in this war, a radical moral asymmetry between Hezbollah and Israel: Hezbollah is deliberately trying to create civilian casualties on both sides while Israel is deliberately trying to minimize civilian casualties, also on both sides.

In perhaps the most blatant terror campaign from the air since the London Blitz, Hezbollah is raining rockets on Israeli cities and villages. These rockets are packed with ball bearings that can penetrate automobiles and shred human flesh. They are meant to kill and maim. And they do.

But it is a dual campaign. Israeli innocents must die in order for Israel to be terrorized. But Lebanese innocents must also die in order for Israel to be demonized, which is why Hezbollah hides its fighters, its rockets, its launchers, its entire infrastructure among civilians. Creating human shields is a war crime. It is also a Hezbollah specialty.

On Wednesday CNN cameras showed destruction in Tyre. What does Israel have against Tyre and its inhabitants? Nothing. But the long-range Hezbollah rockets that have been raining terror on Haifa are based in Tyre. What is Israel to do? Leave untouched the launch sites that are deliberately placed in built-up areas?

Had Israel wanted to destroy Lebanese civilian infrastructure, it would have turned out the lights in Beirut in the first hour of the war, destroying the billion-dollar power grid and setting back Lebanon 20 years. It did not do that. Instead it attacked dual-use infrastructure -- bridges, roads, airport runways -- and blockaded Lebanon's ports to prevent the reinforcement and resupply of Hezbollah. Ten thousand Katyusha rockets are enough. Israel was not going to allow Hezbollah 10,000 more.

Israel's response to Hezbollah has been to use the most precise weaponry and targeting it can. It has no interest, no desire to kill Lebanese civilians. Does anyone imagine that it could not have leveled south Lebanon, to say nothing of Beirut? Instead, in the bitter fight against Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, it has repeatedly dropped leaflets, issued warnings, sent messages by radio and even phone text to Lebanese villagers to evacuate so that they would not be harmed.

Israel knows that these leaflets and warnings give the Hezbollah fighters time to escape and regroup. The advance notification as to where the next attack is coming has allowed Hezbollah to set up elaborate ambushes. The result? Unexpectedly high Israeli infantry casualties. Moral scrupulousness paid in blood. Israeli soldiers die so that Lebanese civilians will not, and who does the international community condemn for disregarding civilian life?

[email protected]

© 2006 The Washington Post Company

[jochhejaam]

Krauthammer's article is right on!

Although he understated that Israel has endured 1,500 katyusha fired missles, the most recent report had them numbered at 4,000.

[RandomGuy]

Ayman al-Zawahri, July 27, 2006.


Sadly, libs will still think we can just withdraw our troops from that part of the world and they will go away. I have never seen a more direct statement by anyone from AQ about what we're dealing with, maybe some of you otherwise ignorant fools will get a clue after this one.

But I doubt it.

The "war" on terrorism will not be won with troops. Some battles will be faught with military hardware, but the ultimate victory will be won by ideas, not bullets.

Conservative thinking such as this is dangerously myopic and one-dimensional, but is unsurprising given the general lack of understanding evidenced by most conservatives about the rest of the world.

[RandomGuy]

But for the record, I am with the hawks on Hezbullah. I hope the Israelis smack the shit out of them.