Speaking of John Bolton

[Yonivore]

Video of this exchange here (http://www.danegerus.com/weblog/Comments.asp?svComment=15110).

Senator John Kerry showed up at the very last minute of yesterday's hearing and it turned into a barbed exchange about the Bush Administration's attempt to engage North Korea in 6 party talks:


http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7050/620/1600/kerry.0.jpg

John Kerry: This has been going on for five years, Mr. Ambassador.

John Bolton: It's the nature of multilateral negotiations, Senator.

John Kerry: Why not engage in a bilateral one and get the job done? That's what the Clinton Administration did.


http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7050/620/1600/bolton.0.jpg

John Bolton: And, very poorly since the North Koreans violated the agreed framework almost from the time it was signed.

Priceless!

[clambake]

As if anything they sign is worth the paper it's printed on.

[Ocotillo]

Actually the North Koreans had inspectors in the country when Clinton was in the White House. There violations accelerated when the current resident seized power.

The things that have happened lately have been under this incompetent bunches watch.

[Yonivore]

Actually the North Koreans had inspectors in the country when Clinton was in the White House. There violations accelerated when the current resident seized power.

The things that have happened lately have been under this incompetent bunches watch.
That's not true. North Korea has already admitted to abandoning the agreed framework the minute Jimmy Carter boarded his plane back to Peanutville.

You need to pay attention.

Besides, there were incompetent inspectors in both Iraq and North Korea during the Clinton Administration. Apparently they missed a whole lot.

[Ocotillo]

I call bullshit.

[ChumpDumper]

Neither side lived up to that agreement, and now neither side has any faith the other will follow a new agreement.

[Ocotillo]

Under Clinton things worked better. Simply, by talking to NK stalls them more successfully than the current groups miscalculation.

[Yonivore]

For North Korea to be as far along as they are they would have had to resume their Nuclear Program soon after signing the Agreed Framework.

Surely you're not suggesting that our exposing their Nuclear program in 2002 meant that it just began? That's beyond naive.

[Yonivore]

Under Clinton things worked better. Simply, by talking to NK stalls them more successfully than the current groups miscalculation.
Clinton was all symbolism over substance. Talking to North Korea allowed them the time to develop their Nuclear Program.

[ChumpDumper]

And what are we doing now?

[Yonivore]

And what are we doing now?
Apparently we're squeezing the missiles out of North Korea.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol are we hoping NK is going to test fire all it's missles so there are none left to put nukes on?

in the meantime, we talk -- the only difference is we have a bunch of other guys at the table with their own agendas.

[Yonivore]

:lol are we hoping NK is going to test fire all it's missles so there are none left to put nukes on?

in the meantime, we talk -- the only difference is we have a bunch of other guys at the table with their own agendas.
Actually, the U.S. and its allies have been exerting increasing pressure and sanctions on North Korea since the discovery of an extensive North Korean counterfeiting scam.

The increased sanctions are thought to be what pushed NoKo into launching it's missiles as an act of defiance.

It's been called the Python Strategy.

Here, I'll let Austin Bay (http://austinbay.net/blog/?p=1276) explain it to you.

[ChumpDumper]

I am familiar with the strategy.

To what end though?

More talk?

[clambake]

None of this is what this thread is about.

Yoni, I talked to Ann Coulter and she said your fixation with Clinton has homosexual overtones.

[Yonivore]

I am familiar with the strategy.

To what end though?

More talk?
You implied nothing was being done and I just showed you that there was much more than Jimmy Carter trips and sweeping it under the rug going on. That's all.

The end will be that North Korea will eventually be defanged. Possibly without an all out war. Isn't that preferable?

[ChumpDumper]

The end will be that North Korea will eventually be defanged.What does defanging mean?

[Yonivore]

What does defanging mean?
Okay, they won't have a nuclear weapon capability and they won't be a threat to their neighbors.

[ChumpDumper]

And you trust Kim to live up to any deal he's forced into?

[Yonivore]

And you trust Kim to live up to any deal he's forced into?
No. Unless there are severe consequences. And, I'm sure there will be. Just ask Saddam Hussein.

[ChumpDumper]

So, all out war. Against someone who actually has a nuke or two.

Great.

[Yonivore]

So, all out war. Against someone who actually has a nuke or two.

Great.
Who said the consequences would be the same? Just that they would be severe.

Ask Khadafi what worked for him. Maybe Kim Jong Mentally-Ill can be persuaded by means other than invasion. I'm betting he can.

[ChumpDumper]

Who said the consequences would be the same? You mentioned Saddam -- why would you do that if you weren't talking about war?

If you wanted to me to ask Khadafi don't tell me to ask Saddam.

[Yonivore]

You mentioned Saddam -- why would you do that if you weren't talking about war?

If you wanted to me to ask Khadafi don't tell me to ask Saddam.
To say that severe consequences can be delivered...whatever form they take.

[ChumpDumper]

What more could we do to NK short of military action?

[Nbadan]

What more could we do to NK short of military action?

Cancel Lil Kim's subscription to Netflix?

[Nbadan]

Seriously, if we try and embargo North Korea? Kim will consider it an act of war.
Stop N.Korea's flow of money? act of war.
Surgical strikes against select targets? act of war
Build up conventional forces on the Korean punninsula? act of war...

You see where this is going.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah the basic premise seems to be make him think we're going to invade since that's what we think made Khadafi settle down.

Trouble is, Kim has always thought we're going to invade NK.

[Nbadan]

Yeah the basic premise seems to be make him think we're going to invade since that's what we think made Khadafi settle down.

Trouble is, Kim has always thought we're going to invade NK.

Khadafi settled down? The truth is Lybia never had much of a nuclear program to begin with, and Khadafi figured that he needed to work with foreign (read: American)oil companies or they would work against him, something Saddam never quite figured out.

[sabar]

Keep stalling until Kim is dead. Pray someone more reasonable steps up.
Or how about some old fashioned assassination? It could even be domestic, there have to be some disgrunted north koreans out there.

[boutons_]

http://www.uclick.com/feature/06/07/28/tt060728.gif

[Obstructed_View]

Clinton and Carter gave the North Koreans over four billion dollars to fund their nuclear program. I'd say doing nothing would be preferable.

[Obstructed_View]

Khadafi settled down? The truth is Lybia never had much of a nuclear program to begin with, and Khadafi figured that he needed to work with foreign (read: American)oil companies or they would work against him, something Saddam never quite figured out.
Those bombs in his living room didn't have anything to do with it.

[ChumpDumper]

Clinton and Carter gave the North Koreans over four billion dollars to fund their nuclear program. I'd say doing nothing would be preferable.Misleading at best.

[Obstructed_View]

Misleading at best.
What part is wrong? We are still funding two light water reactors and sending them 100 million dollars in oil every year in spite of the fact that they violated the agreed framework before Jimmy Carter got his million dollar check from the Nobel foundation. North Korea then announced proudly "We have the bomb, what are you going to do about it?"

Sorry, bro. It's completely correct. Idiotic snipes don't suddenly make it false.

[ChumpDumper]

KEDO suspends NK reactor project. (http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200310/kt2003102919534611990.htm) 10/29/2003

KEDO suspends oil aid to North Korea. (http://www.korea.net/news/news/newsview.asp?serial_no=20021115012) 11/16/2002

[Obstructed_View]

KEDO suspends NK reactor project. (http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200310/kt2003102919534611990.htm) 10/29/2003

KEDO suspends oil aid to North Korea. (http://www.korea.net/news/news/newsview.asp?serial_no=20021115012) 11/16/2002
Yep. I was mistaken. Allow me to rephrase:

Clinton and Carter gave the North Koreans just under one billion dollars to fund their nuclear program. I'd say doing nothing would be preferable.

[Nbadan]

Looks like some Democrats aren't looking to filibuster Bolton


A leading Democrat senator said that a filibuster of President Bush's controversial UN Ambassador John Bolton "is unlikely," RAW STORY has learned.

Senator Charles Schumer, a New York Senator, appeared last night on CNN's Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer. During the course of the interview, Schumer explained "I think that if you count the votes, a filibuster is unlikely, but a lot of Democrats are deciding, weighing the positive of Bolton that he's been for Israel and negative that he has almost an antagonistic, "go at it alone" attitude to the nations of the world, which we need with us to fight a war on terror."

Schumer confirmed that he himself was "open-minded" and has yet to make a final decision on the vote.

Rawstory (http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Senator_Schumer_Bolton_wont_face_filibuster_0731.h tml)

"Schumer confirmed that he himself was "open-minded" and has yet to make a final decision on the vote."

'Open-minded' - yeah right :rolleyes

WHIP Durbin confirmed just a few days ago that they almost had the votes to filibuster Bolton.

[ChumpDumper]

Yep. I was mistaken. Allow me to rephrase:

Clinton and Carter gave the North Koreans just under one billion dollars to fund their nuclear program. I'd say doing nothing would be preferable.That's still intimating that light-water reactors = nuclear bombs, which is still misleading. That was my only point.

[Obstructed_View]

That's still intimating that light-water reactors = nuclear bombs, which is still misleading. That was my only point.
Actually, that would be misleading, but wasn't my intent. I was more referring to the fact that we sent them money, equipment and oil that allowed them to continue work on their original weapons program. The light water reactors were basically to call the bluff on North Korea's claim that they were pursuing nuclear reactors for electrical power rather than for nuclear weapons.

[ChumpDumper]

So what do you think we would give them if anything comes of the multilateral talks?

Gum?

Playstations?

[Obstructed_View]

So what do you think we would give them if anything comes of the multilateral talks?

Gum?

Playstations?

Do you think it's worth giving them more than that if they are going to continue to develop nuclear weapons? I'd just as soon not give them anything and go back to the Clinton idea of waiting them out if nobody is going to actually hold them to an agreement, although at some point they are going to sell a weapon to someone who will drop it on Israel, which may be what the world community is counting on.