This is sick - Israel.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Link (http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/2006/07/bloodthirsty_ch.html)

Just look at the pictures in the article.

Having kids write messages on the missiles that you're about to hit Lebanon with? Nice, Israel. Nice.

[clambake]

We know how you feel, PDBM.

I just wonder what you would do if you could trade places with Israel?

[MannyIsGod]

I saw those pictures a few days ago, and I wasn't aware of what was actually written on the bombs. I didn't know if they were actually being used at this time or if this was done years ago in peacetime as part of some weird school trip or something of that nature.

But yeah, once you notice what is on the shells it is impossible to let it go in any way. That is fucked up.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

We know how you feel, PDBM.

I just wonder what you would do if you could trade places with Israel?

I would probably start with not having kids write messages on missiles.

[clambake]

I agree with that.

I don't approve of any people spreading hate through their children.

[clambake]

PDBM, I'm still trying to wrap my head around what you would like to see happen here.

Do you suggest Israeli army go back home and forget about it?

Do you suggest Israel just learn to live with missiles in their dining rooms?

Do you suggest that Israel drop their weapons and go after Hezbollah with handcuffs?

Are you upset that Hitler wasn't allowed to finish the job?

[exstatic]

Call me when Israel is actually strapping the bombs ON the kids and using them.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

PDBM, I'm still trying to wrap my head around what you would like to see happen here.

Do you suggest Israeli army go back home and forget about it?

Do you suggest Israel just learn to live with missiles in their dining rooms?

Do you suggest that Israel drop their weapons and go after Hezbollah with handcuffs?

Are you upset that Hitler wasn't allowed to finish the job?

Huh?

I'm just saying, don't get kids to write messages on missiles. That's it.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Call me when Israel is actually strapping the bombs ON the kids and using them.

That's wrong, too.

[exstatic]

That's wrong, too.
Way wrong, but that's what Israel faces EVERY DAY. Al Aqsa has gotten wise to the loner young man profiling, and is frequently sending women and even children. Israel is fucked up, but wouldn't you be after 15 years of that shit?

[Yonivore]

Is it possible these children lost loved ones to Hezbollah attacks? If that's the case, it was probably easy to persuade them for the photo op.

[ChumpDumper]

What are children doing around live rounds anyway?

[Yonivore]

What are children doing around live rounds anyway?
I agree. Are we sure they were live rounds?

[ChumpDumper]

Well the caption read: Israeli girls write messages on a shell at a heavy artillery position near Kiryat Shmona, in northern Israel, next to the Lebanese border, Monday, July 17, 2006.

Don't know why there would be duds there.

Of course I don't know why children would be at a heavy artillery position either.

[MannyIsGod]

This is just the fuck up of some local small time officer I'm sure. The Israeli army said they didn't sanction this, and I would hope that is the case. It is pretty god damn deplorable any way you look at it, but I don't think it should be used to represent all Israelis anymore than I think the words of some stupid fanatic should be used to represent all Palastians etc.

[Yonivore]

Is this a real bomb-belt?

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/suicidekid.jpg

Is it loaded?

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/new03.11.jpg

Hmmm...

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/baby_terrorist2.jpg

[jochhejaam]

That's wrong, too.
That's wrong too? As if signing a missle is comparable too strapping on a bomb to kill innocents?!? What a joke!!

[ChumpDumper]

Are those Israelis?

[MannyIsGod]

The use of children to advance hate in anyway is deplorable. Instead of finding ways to make the Israeli situation justifiable, maybe some of you should realize that using children to promote hatrad is always wrong admit as much.

Tell me Joch, what would Christ say about children signing artilery shells?

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=MannyIsGod]The use of children to advance hate in anyway is deplorable. Instead of finding ways to make the Israeli situation justifiable, maybe some of you should realize that using children to promote hatrad is always wrong admit as much.
Who's trying to justify the use of children to advance hate? Save your elementary lectures for someone that needs them.




Tell me Joch, what would Christ say about children signing artilery shells?
Are you referring specifically to Jewish children signing a missle that's used to defend their Nation against terrorists that want to annihilate Gods Chosen People? (rhetorical)

Christ's mission in his 1st advent was to give mankind the opportunity to have everlasting life; "I have come that you might have life, and that more abundantly"
Figure out the answer based on that information and share what you come up with.

[Guru of Nothing]

"I have come that you might have life, and that more abundantly"


His grasp of the English language is amazing! .. and it could not be more poetic. It's almost as if Someone Else wrote His words.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Link (http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/2006/07/bloodthirsty_ch.html)

Just look at the pictures in the article.

Having kids write messages on the missiles that you're about to hit Lebanon with? Nice, Israel. Nice.

Kinda like doping them up on opium and speed balls, strapping a bomb to their chest, and sending them to blow up civilians eating dinner.

Oh wait, those are the victims of mean ol' Israel's heinous attacks :rolleyes

[clambake]

On both sides, if children are raised to hate then no solution will ever be developed.

You, me, or anyone can not turn the clock back to 1948. Annihalation of people will not be accepted. There is no do over.

What is the answer PDBM?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Kinda like doping them up on opium and speed balls, strapping a bomb to their chest, and sending them to blow up civilians eating dinner.

Oh wait, those are the victims of mean ol' Israel's heinous attacks :rolleyes

Do you have any evidence they are doped up on Opium?

And for the last time, Palestinians using kids isn't right...and neither is this shit. Why don't you guys get that? Like Manny said stop trying to justify this shit.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

What is the answer PDBM?

If it were that simple, it would have already been reached.

But sides have ego's and both sides have there own agenda's.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Do you have any evidence they are doped up on Opium?

It's been widely reported that this is going on. No, I'm not going to go hunting for a link. Watch the news or read a paper sometime.


On both sides, if children are raised to hate then no solution will ever be developed.

If your kids couldn't go outside in the yard without worrying about a bomb landing on their head, or going to the mall/cafe without some nut walking in and blowing him and them up, they'd probably be pissed too.

[jochhejaam]

And for the last time, Palestinians using kids isn't right...and neither is this shit. Why don't you guys get that? Like Manny said stop trying to justify this shit.

1. You started a thread about Jewish kids signing bombs and labeled it as being "sick".

2. No one's trying to justify the missle signing. (in the scope of what's transpiring in the M/E, it wasn't even worth mentioning).

3. You equivocate this missle signing to the Muslim/Islamic terrorists indiscriminate and intentional murdering of innocents by stating that "both are wrong". The two acts should not be mentioned in the same breath! There's no comparing them!

4. Your obvious hate-filled, bigotted bias against Jews and Israel would be aptly described as "sick".

5. There's no place in the human race for people that wish for the destruction of a Nation that merely wishes to live in peace.

[gtownspur]

What moral justification do pakis have in condemning israel?

Sincerely

-Random Indian Guy,

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

Man, like clockwork Joch pulls out the Anti Semite card. You could seriously tell time by it.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

It's been widely reported that this is going on. No, I'm not going to go hunting for a link. Watch the news or read a paper sometime.


Why should I?

You're making the claim. Just back it up.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

What moral justification do pakis have in condemning israel?

Sincerely

-Random Indian Guy,

:D


Let's not get into India vs Pak...I plan on sleeping sometime tonight.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

[B]3. You equivocate this missle signing to the Muslim/Islamic terrorists indiscriminate and intentional murdering of innocents by stating that "both are wrong". The two acts should not be mentioned in the same breath! There's no comparing them!

4. Your obvious hate-filled, bigotted bias against Jews and Israel would be aptly described as "sick".

5. There's no place in the human race for people that wish for the destruction of a Nation that merely wishes to live in peace.

Wow.

You got all that out of my first post? You...my friend are Mr. Cleo.

[MannyIsGod]

Palestian children have been used by certain groups. It is pretty well documented. However, most Palestinians outside of those groups responded with outraged. It is not something that the majority agrees with, so I don't see how it bears any relevence in this conversation one way or the other.

[Nbadan]

:lol

Man, like clockwork Joch pulls out the Anti Semite card. You could seriously tell time by it.

Your not supposed to criticizing Israel - says so in the Bible.

[MannyIsGod]

If we're going to sit here and talk about the use of children, be real about it. The Israelis use children as well and involve them in this conflict when it is outright wrong.


http://www.child-soldiers.org/document_get.php?id=966



Israeli security forces
Child recruitment and use
The Israeli intelligence services (Shabak)
continually seek to recruit children as informants.
A field survey with former child detainees
conducted in 2003 by Defence For Children
International-Palestine Section (DCI-PS),
estimated that 60 per cent of the children
interviewed, some of them are as young as 12,
were reported to have been tortured or subjected
to other forms of coercion or inducement in an
attempt to make them cooperate.3 By late 2003
in Gaza alone there were on average 40 attempts
to recruit minors every month. In January
2004, a 17 year old was arrested at the Rafah
crossing between Gaza and Israel, questioned
about his and his family’s political affiliations,
and reportedly beaten and threatened until he
agreed to inform on his family. After his release,
he handed himself over to the security forces of
the Palestinian Authority. Travel or work permits
may be offered in exchange for information. In
February 2004 a 16 year old was detained on
his way to work through the Erez checkpoint
and, when he refused to be an informant, was
photographed being hugged by an intelligence
officer. He later agreed to cooperate after he was
threatened with publication of the photo, but was
subsequently arrested by the security forces of
the Palestinian Authority.4
The Israeli armed forces were reported to
have used children as human shields. On 22 April
2004 soldiers reportedly made a 13-year old
boy sit for four hours on the front of their armed
jeep, with his arm tied to the windshield, to stop
stones being thrown at them by demonstrators
protesting at the building of the separation wall
in Biddo.5


Despite its commitment to uphold the UN
Convention on the Rights of the Child and
the Optional Protocol on the involvement of
children in armed conflict, Israel failed to meet
its obligations under these treaties to provide
special protection for children in armed conflicts.

The Israeli armed forces frequently failed to
distinguish between civilian and military targets,
resulting in a high number of child casualties. The
Israeli authorities said that most children were
killed while actively engaged in combat.11 Detailed
documentation indicates that the majority of
deaths did not occur in demonstrations or in
armed combat.12Palestinians use kids too. It's really pretty damn sick.


Armed political groups
There was no evidence of systematic recruitment
of children by Palestinian armed groups, which all
publicly opposed the use of children in combat.
However, children receive military training and
are used as messengers and couriers, and in
some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in
attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians.21 All the
main political groups involve children in this way,
including Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.22

Testimony from child members of armed
groups suggests that they were recruited
voluntarily and that children in the most difficult
social and economic circumstances were often
the most eager to participate.25 In a handful of
cases, it was alleged that children were tricked
into involvement or unwittingly used in attacks.26
Armed groups reportedly supplied locally made
explosives to children. At least three children died
and four were injured in Gaza in early 2004 while
using homemade explosives.2That right there is the best proof you should ever need to how you start to solve this situation.



Hamas called for an end to the use of children
in armed attacks and suicide missions on a
number of occasions.33 In April 2002 Hamas
called on imams “to mention this issue in their
sermons” and on educators “to address this issue
without sacrificing the enthusiasm or spirit of
martyrdom of our youth”.34 However, in March
2003 Hamas leader Abd al-Aziz al-Rantisi, who
was killed by Israeli forces on 17 April 2004,
declared, “If a boy is 16, he is a man. He is a
mujaheed, a holy warrior, engaged in jihad”.35
The Hamas armed forces, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam
Brigades, were implicated in several attacks
by under-18s, including a suicide bombing by
17-year-old Khamis Gerwan near Arial in August
2003.36 Several 16- to 18-year-olds were killed in
attacks on Israeli settlements that allegedly had
Hamas backing.37 Hamas claimed responsibility
for attacks by children as young as 15.38

[MannyIsGod]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_and_minors_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict



The Israeli response to the deaths, injuries and arrests of Palestinian children has been mixed. Many individuals and organizations within Israel have condemned what they claim is a systemic disregard for the well-being of Palestinian children. Others, including the Israeli government and the Israeli Defence Forces, have expressed sympathy but deferred responsibility and blame to the Palestinians. This deferment has been on four primary grounds: that the deaths of children are a regrettable consequence of war; that Islamic militants use children has human shields or deliberately locate themselves in civilian areas during fighting; that children are used as child suicide bombers by Palestinian militant organizations; and that children engage in acts of extreme violence toward Israeli forces and civilians.

Several Israeli and international human rights groups have refuted the latter two claims by collecting statistics that have shown the majority (between 64.4% and 87.7%) of Palestinian child fatalities were killed in circumstances in which they were clearly not involved in any hostilities or clashes with Israeli forces.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

That's some good info, thanks Manny.

[Nbadan]

At what age is a child to young to fight? 10? 13? 16? I think 18 is to young. Clearly, both sides have used kids in acts of violence against each other, just as both sides have bombed primarily civilian targets.

[whottt]

I just wonder how naive the collective group is...

Children being taught hate?

I think parents that shield children from their own biases are few and far between...because biased people seldom see themselves as being biased. And even if they do...they seldom see their bias as unjustified.

Does a racist avoid racial comments around his child because he doesn't want his child to be a racist? Uh no...if he was capable of that kind of thought he wouldn't be a racist.

No he will teach his child racism because he thinks it's in the child's best interest.


Now strapping a bomb to your child and sending him out to die...

That's fucked up. That's incredibly fucked up...it's by far more fucked up than passing your own biases on to your kids.

It's sending your child to die.

The fact that it's somehow seen as a different side of the same coin as teaching kids hate is what scares me...

If I have kids, I probably will pass my biases on to them...and if it's strong enough bias I might probably even do something that would cross the line of good parenting...

But sticking a bomb on them and sending them out to die for my belief?

That I would never do...

Killing your child is pretty much the worst thing you can do to him...


Do you think NBAdan and boutons tell their kids that political parties are just differing viewpoints and neither are truly right or wrong, and that the child should form their own opinion?


All this is nothing new and it's probably done less now than it has been done historically.

Not excusing it...but I'd be willing to bet that just about every parent either intentionally or unintentionally attempts to pass their biases on to their children. And if the culture is a violent one and the bias is strong enough....


I am pretty sure this sort of thing has happened in America before BTW...I mean kids being fed and used for propaganda purposes.

[jochhejaam]

:lol

Man, like clockwork Joch pulls out the Anti Semite card. You could seriously tell time by it.
The Anti-Semite card?
I've mentioned it about two posters over the 12 months I've posted in the forum and you can tell time by it? :lol

One of the two is you, who has openly proclaimed your "hatred" for the Nation of Israel and has said that you could care less if they and the Palestinians killed each other off. (although I haven't recently insinuated that your hatred is for the Jews. I agree that your hatred, as stated by you, is for Israel in general and not anti-semitic)

The other is PDBM who was asked if he beieved the Nation of Israel had a right to exist and replied that 'his answer to the question should be obvious
based on his comments about them'. That's anti-semitic.

Now, expound on your assertion that you can "tell time by it".

[jochhejaam]

Wow.

You got all that out of my first post? You...my friend are Mr. Cleo.
Nah, onlly the points regarding the missles, the rest was obtained from your posts in the "War" thread and your comments that I cited in post #40 of this thread.



Other excerpts from the War thread

QUOTE=clambake: Until Israel is accepted as a soverign state with the right to exist, all of this is an exercise in futility.


QUOTE=Please_dont_ban_me: Who made them a sovereign state with the right to exist?

Feel free to clarify your position if what I've said is incorrect.

[MannyIsGod]

You busted it out on NBADan as well. And I believe there are other instances of you at least alluding to it, but I digress. You've at least come to the conclusion that my beef is indeed with the government of Isreal and not the Jewish faith or nor people of Jewish decent.

As for me not caring about whether or not these 2 cultures destory themsevles, I should clarify because you constantly fall back on this. This is not a situation which our society has ignored. It is a situation which has indirectly led to the deaths of many Americans and a situation in which neither side wants to work to a long term solution at this time. I think the Arab nations and Palestian leaders have really screwed the Palestian people several times (in 45 and when Araft refused the offer given to him are the worst cases of this) but I also believe that Israel has much to perpetuate and continue the current situation. In otherwords, both groups share DEEPLY in the blame for the the problems.

Because of that, I feel if is a problem they should solve. They US needs to stop with the excessive material/monetary/military support of Israel and let them deal with the problems they have shared in creating. At some point, enough is enough. I've reached my threshhold. If they can't learn to live with each other, then THEY must live with the consequences.

The people of this country are indifferent and ignorant of the vast majority of conflicts across the globe where people are enduring great suffering. Sure, 10 years after a massacre we feel moved by movies like Hotel Rwanda but we continue to flat out ignore the suffering of people in Africa. We do nothing to help these people. We're afraid to call genocide by its name because it may commit us to act out. The people of this country couldn't care any less what happens in these places, yet we devote so much to Israel. Why?

[2centsworth]

yet we devote so much to Israel. Why?

The hollocaust for one. Secondly, they are at the center of the fight against terrorism.

We should directly do something about the people of Darfur. Indirectly we're in a fight against radical islam.

Also, what is the UN doing for the people of Darfur? I thought the rest of the world had the moral authority to care for the people of Darfur. Why is everyone waiting for the "evil" United States to fix it?

[Ya Vez]

I know its not like the sectarian violence in africa is any different then the one between jews and arabs.... don't people read the news, history... alot of the sectarian violence happening now in africa is also cause by radical islamofacist..... exported from where?

[ShackO]

The Anti-Semite card?
I've mentioned it about two posters over the 12 months I've posted in the forum and you can tell time by it? :lol

One of the two is you, who has openly proclaimed your "hatred" for the Nation of Israel and has said that you could care less if they and the Palestinians killed each other off. (although I haven't recently insinuated that your hatred is for the Jews. I agree that your hatred, as stated by you, is for Israel in general and not anti-semitic)

The other is PDBM who was asked if he beieved the Nation of Israel had a right to exist and replied that 'his answer to the question should be obvious
based on his comments about them'. That's anti-semitic.

Now, expound on your assertion that you can "tell time by it".


If someone does not believe Israel should exist does that make them anti-Semitic???

If some doesn’t believe Kurdistan should exist are they anti-Kurd??

If someone does not agree with sending billions of “your dollars” to Ireland are they anti-Celtic???

What his views are I don’t know, nor care, but far to often ppl are shouted down for speaking out against the things they have done……..

I tell you now they have no “right” to exist….. By might and might alone they or any nation on earth has ever existed……

DO they have some “right” to that land………. Yea as long as they have the power to keep it……

By what right does the US have New Mexico??? They took it from Mexico… Mexico took it from Spain… Spain took it from the “Indians” and those “Indians” took it from some other “Indians”…….. So then how has “the most right”?????

[Obstructed_View]

You guys are aware that Muslim children are taught from birth that Jews drink the blood of non-Jewish children on Passover.

Just checking.

[ChumpDumper]

All of them?

[smeagol]

When Israel deliberately targets women and children, get back to us pdbm.

Till, then, the Muslim terrorists, in my book, are the sickests people in the planet.

[velik_m]

When Israel deliberately targets women and children, get back to us pdbm.

Till, then, the Muslim terrorists, in my book, are the sickests people in the planet.

Israel may not target children, but it sure doesn't care if they kill some.

terrorist are bad people, whether they are muslim, atheist, christian or jewish.

and nazis are far sicker than them.

---------------------

More than 40 people, including 20 children, have been killed in an Israeli air strike on the southern Lebanese town of Qana.

Displaced families had been sheltering in the basement of a site which was crushed after a direct hit.

The US secretary of state has cancelled a visit to Lebanon as its prime minister says he will only discuss a full and immediate ceasefire.

Hundreds of protesters are staging a violent demonstration in Beirut.

...

Qana was the site of an Israeli bombing of a UN base in 1996 that killed more than 100 people sheltering there during Israel's "Grapes of Wrath" offensive, which was also aimed at destroying Hezbollah.

Before Sunday's attack, the UN said some 600 people - about a third of them children - had been killed by Israeli action in Lebanon since their operations began 19 days ago.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/5228224.stm

----------------------------

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=ShackO]If someone does not believe Israel should exist does that make them anti-Semitic???
Unless they deny it, and PDBM hasn't done so, yes, it does.


If some doesn’t believe Kurdistan should exist are they anti-Kurd??
Yes (that one was easy)


If someone does not agree with sending billions of “your dollars” to Ireland are they anti-Celtic???
They're anti-sendingourtaxdollarstoIreland. (I believe I'm aceing the test so far)


What his views are I don’t know, nor care, but far to often ppl are shouted down for speaking out against the things they have done……..
You can get "shouted at" but you really can't get "shouted down" in a blog.



I tell you now they have no “right” to exist….. By might and might alone they or any nation on earth has ever existed……
On the face of it, this statement is senseless. Perhaps you can expound on this one.


DO they have some “right” to that land………. Yea as long as they have the power to keep it……
You're confusing the power to take and "keep" something with the legal rights to something.


By what right does the US have New Mexico??? They took it from Mexico… Mexico took it from Spain… Spain took it from the “Indians” and those “Indians” took it from some other “Indians”…….. So then how has “the most right”?????
Possession is 9/10's of the law, so we do.

[jochhejaam]

All of them?
More than likely a majority of those raised in the Midde East are and therein lies the problem.

[velik_m]

so since Israel didn't posses his land 60 years ago, Israel is only 1/10 legal.

You're an anti-semite.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=velik_m]Israel may not target children, but it sure doesn't care if they kill some.
Don't state it as fact unless you have something to back it up with.
Either provide a link to substantiate this mess (you won't find one) or add an IMO as a qualifier.


...

[velik_m]

25% of Allied victims in WW2 were civilians.
65% of Axis victims in WW2 were civilians.
>70% of Israel victims in Lebanon are civilians.

Israel killed more children in this past days than Hezbollah ever did.

[jochhejaam]

so since Israel didn't posses his land 60 years ago, Israel is only 1/10 legal.

You're an anti-semite.
Directly responding to this might cause you to think it has merit. With that being said I'll refrain and let it serve as monument of your intellect.

[jochhejaam]

25% of Allied victims in WW2 were civilians.
65% of Axis victims in WW2 were civilians.
>70% of Israel victims in Lebanon are civilians.

Israel killed more children in this past days than Hezbollah ever did.

velik, please don't tell me that this is your proof that Israel doesn't care if they kill children.

[Doc Jerome]

For those of you trying to compare. Israel always trys to take the moral high ground in these situations. Palestinions have had absolutely nothing militarily; no planes or aircraft of any kind, no ships, very few guns, old rockets, homemade bombs and such. The Israelis have had the unconditional support the US government both in aid/money and military hardware. Palestinions and Arabs have always viewed the presence of Israel as an occupation since it's establishment in 1948. They have been treated as second class citizens ever since and have tried to garner support for their cause throughout the world to no avail.

Now if U look at the situation from the perspective of the occupied and oppressed, then what is your alternative? These people discovered a way to fight through gorilla-type war tactics and to an extent, have had some success in their fight or resistance against occupation and oppression. Now from the Israeli side, the Palestinian resistence is a militia group/terror group or called some other name that makes their fight seem less heroic or noble.

At this point Israel is not going anywhere, but the Israeli government and the world will have to address the real problems of that region of the world. Noone wants to live life with a 100 lb. military boot pressing on your neck at every moment of the day of your lifetime and the prospect of the same thing happening to your children being seemingly guaranteed by your occupiers biggest supporters with their unconditional support for them.

I can't say how inappropriate the thought of children signing bombs is. It is just beyond comprehension that Israel would allow children near live rounds let alone sign them with messages of hate. Those children are now victims of their own government's inability to find any sense of humanity.

[velik_m]

?The destruction of the infrastructure, the death of so many children and so many people. These have not been surgical strikes. And it?s very difficult, I think, to understand the kind of military tactics that have been used.? (The British Foreign Office Minister Kim Howell)

http://www.itv.com/news/index_97c842189922f78936713d2bbcafaf95.html

[velik_m]

velik, please don't tell me that this is your proof that Israel doesn't care if they kill children.

From the high civilian (and children) casualties i can only asume they either don't care about collateral damage or they are purposley targeting them (which i don't belive).
In my opinion their actions speak louder than their words.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=Doc Jerome] Now if U look at the situation from the perrspective of the occupied and oppressed, then what is your alternative?
How does being give a piece of land by the United Nations, the size of New Jersey, equate to oppression of Arabs and Palestinians? And how does that parceling of land justify unabated attacks on Israel?




[QUOTE]I can't say how inappropriate the thought of children signing bombs is. It is just beyond comprehension that Israel would allow children near live rounds let alone sign them with messages of hate.
Sorry to hear that your ability to comprehend is so limited. There's a plethora of macabre occurences happening daily in the M/E and the world that numb the senses but this missle signing is not one of them.

[Doc Jerome]

Part of the chess game that is being played does have a civilan component to it. The Israeli brain trust thought that by destroying infrastructure, it would cut off escape routes for whomever captured the 3 soldiers. They also knew it would prevent civilians from getting out of harms way and that was acceptable, because they thought the Lebonese people would blame Hezbolla for this new round of oppression and abuse by Israel and the world ie. US. The problem was, all of this was flawed thinking and now the prospect of sending young Americans to the region is very real.

[Doc Jerome]

[QUOTE]
How does being give a piece of land by the United Nations, the size of New Jersey, equate to oppression of Arabs and Palestinians? And how does that parceling of land justify unabated attacks on Israel?[QUOTE]

Sorry to hear that your ability to comprehend is so limited. There's a plethora of macabre occurences happening daily in the M/E and the world that numb the senses but this missle signing is not one of them.


Israel was established on the basis of the "Jews" being Gods chosen people that were supposedly taken into slavery by the Romans and the World (UN) giving this land to the "Jews" to fulfill God's promise of them having land of their own. Israel was given the land after it's own gorilla war which could be viewed as a terriorist militia in itself. Israelis stole what they needed (supplies) to establish their country. As far as that little parceling of land, their were people that lived on that land before Israel was established. They were kicked off and given nothing in return for it.

1) One could infer that if the Jews are indeed the chosen people by God, then everyone else is not and therefore less in some way.

2) Anyone kicked off their land and given nothing in return for it, but the reasoning above should not be viewed with the bewilderment that you seem to display when they react negatively.


When U don't have an argument to present, it is easy to sling insults. Trying to use comparisons with other dispicable actions does not lessen the tragedy committed on the minds and souls of those Israeli children that were not so fortunate and signed live bombs to be sent to kill other children. :fro

[jochhejaam]

When U don't have an argument to present, it is easy to sling insults. Trying to use comparisons with other dispicable actions does not lessen the tragedy committed on the minds and souls of those Israeli children that were not so fortunate and signed live bombs to be sent to kill other children. :fro
You stated that you found the missle signing to be "beyond comprehension". That's either a gross overstatement of a sign of low comprehension.
If you found is insulting you certainly have the right to qualify it. You failed to do so and therefore I stand by what I said.

You interpreted my statement as a comparison for the purpose of justification, I define what I said as putting things in their proper perspective.

[Doc Jerome]

You stated that you found the missle signing to be "beyond comprehension". That's either a gross overstatement of a sign of low comprehension.
If you found is insulting you certainly have the right to qualify it. You failed to do so and therefore I stand by what I said.

You interpreted my statement as a comparison for the purpose of justification, I define what I said as putting things in their proper perspective.

Your whole argument is flawed because you use statements as comparison for the purpose of justification. Perspective is one thing, but you continuously use these to distort perspective. The tragic effects of government sanctioned school trips to sign live ammunition and telling the children who sign that they are sending a message; as if this will validate what they have written, is the height of inhumanity for a people who's claim to the "holy land" is that they are indeed God's chosen. This does not put Jews or the Israeli government above moral condemnation or criticism. You know this and I suspect, that is why you lash out with insults.

[Doc Jerome]

By the way, Jochhejaam

Being anti Israeli policy does not equate with being anti-semetic. You have taken this misidentification too far. :fro

[Obstructed_View]

Israel was established on the basis of the "Jews" being Gods chosen people that were supposedly taken into slavery by the Romans and the World (UN) giving this land to the "Jews" to fulfill God's promise of them having land of their own. Israel was given the land after it's own gorilla war which could be viewed as a terriorist militia in itself. Israelis stole what they needed (supplies) to establish their country. As far as that little parceling of land, their were people that lived on that land before Israel was established. They were kicked off and given nothing in return for it.

1) One could infer that if the Jews are indeed the chosen people by God, then everyone else is not and therefore less in some way.

2) Anyone kicked off their land and given nothing in return for it, but the reasoning above should not be viewed with the bewilderment that you seem to display when they react negatively.

When U don't have an argument to present, it is easy to sling insults. Trying to use comparisons with other dispicable actions does not lessen the tragedy committed on the minds and souls of those Israeli children that were not so fortunate and signed live bombs to be sent to kill other children. :fro
This post is the largest load of bullshit I've ever seen. There's not a single part of it that's correct.

The League of Nations made a declaration for a jewish state before the end of world war I. The Jews legally bought most of their territory through individual private purchases, and the rest was purchased through what was known as the JNF. The land was purchased by Jews from Arabs, who laughed at the stupid Jews for paying so much for worthless land. In 1947 the UN declared that there would be two independent states; one for the Jews and one for the Muslims. The Muslims instead decided to take all of it and Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon attacked Israel with the intention of wiping the Jews out. Unfortunately for them, Israel survived. Over the following years, about a million Jewish refugees from those countries fled to Israel. None of those countries that attacked Israel took in any of the Muslim refugees that resulted from the war they started. There are now approximately five million refugees claiming right of return to Palestine, when there were about half a million in 1948. I'd point out the discrepancy in the math there, but it would probably fall on deaf ears.

And why, by the way, would anyone be surprised that you wouldn't be bewildered by the behavior of people claiming to have been kicked off of land that they sold? You aren't bewildered by people letting terrorists launch rockets on their roofs and then wondering why they get hit by bombs.

[Doc Jerome]

This post is the largest load of bullshit I've ever seen. There's not a single part of it that's correct.

The League of Nations made a declaration for a jewish state before the end of world war I. The Jews legally bought most of their territory through individual private purchases, and the rest was purchased through what was known as the JNF. The land was purchased by Jews from Arabs, who laughed at the stupid Jews for paying so much for worthless land. In 1947 the UN declared that there would be two independent states; one for the Jews and one for the Muslims. The Muslims instead decided to take all of it and Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon attacked Israel with the intention of wiping the Jews out. Unfortunately for them, Israel survived. Over the following years, about a million Jewish refugees from those countries fled to Israel. None of those countries that attacked Israel took in any of the Muslim refugees that resulted from the war they started. There are now approximately five million refugees claiming right of return to Palestine, when there were about half a million in 1948. I'd point out the discrepancy in the math there, but it would probably fall on deaf ears.

And why, by the way, would anyone be surprised that you wouldn't be bewildered by the behavior of people claiming to have been kicked off of land that they sold? You aren't bewildered by people letting terrorists launch rockets on their roofs and then wondering why they get hit by bombs.

You are all the same. You distort history to serve your own purpose. You can't engage anyone in any sort of discussion about Israel without call them names or slinging insults. You can practice your misinformed half truths on someone who will accept it for face value. Jews were stealing equipment supplies and resources from the allies and diverted to their armed militia at the end of 1945. This is fact. Some land was bought, but all of it was not.

What is the justification in the Israeli gov. kidnapping Palestinions and Arabs; keeping them in prisons for simply speaking out against Israel's policies. Address the root of the problem and not the balance of the status quo in favor of Israel.
:fro

It is you and people of your line of thinking that should rethink who is bewildered, bewitched, and who is actually being bothered. :fro

[Doc Jerome]

And why, by the way, would anyone be surprised that you wouldn't be bewildered by the behavior of people claiming to have been kicked off of land that they sold? You aren't bewildered by people letting terrorists launch rockets on their roofs and then wondering why they get hit by bombs.

When they actually were kicked off, their claims have merrit. There is no way that blowing up a building housing civilians because some so called "militant" launched a rocket from it's roof top justifies killing everyone in the building to MAYBE get the guy or guys who launched said missle. It isn't even clear if those buildings are being used for this purpose. You go figure.
:fro

[Doc Jerome]

To Obstructed_View:

This is a pretext for something else.

[Doc Jerome]

Gotta go. Later.

[Obstructed_View]

You are all the same. You distort history to serve your own purpose. You can't engage anyone in any sort of discussion about Israel without call them names or slinging insults. You can practice your misinformed half truths on someone who will accept it for face value. Jews were stealing equipment supplies and resources from the allies and diverted to their armed militia at the end of 1945. This is fact. Some land was bought, but all of it was not.

What is the justification in the Israeli gov. kidnapping Palestinions and Arabs; keeping them in prisons for simply speaking out against Israel's policies. Address the root of the problem and not the balence of the status quo in favor of Israel.
:fro

It is you and people of your line of thinking that should rethink who is bewildered, bewitched, and who is actually being bothered. :fro
First of all, when did I call names or sling insults? I said your post was bullshit. Believe me, that's being kind. If you don't want to cite history or the news in order to have a discussion then we won't have it for long.

I'm going to offer you a piece of advice. In fact, I'm going to implore you: PLEASE do not take anything I say at face value. Don't take anything ANYONE says at face value. You should learn to be able to sort out the truths from the half-truths on your own. It's a skill you could really use, because the only other alternative is that you have some anti-Israel bias that you think isn't showing. I think you just say shit that you hear other people repeat, which is a shame considering you have the entire world at the end of your keyboard.

Find the errors in my post and we'll go through them if you'd like. Show me the examples of Israel sneaking into neighboring countries and taking their people hostage, and we'll talk about it. Make blanket accusations or give anecdotal evidence of crimes and, again, we have nothing to talk about.

The only reason I sound like I'm defending Israel is because you are making completely fallacious statements.

[Obstructed_View]

There is no way that blowing up a building housing civilians because some so called "militant" launched a rocket from it's roof top justifies killing everyone in the building to MAYBE get the guy or guys who launched said missle. It isn't even clear if those buildings are being used for this purpose. You go figure.
:fro
I agree. I can't see how there's any gain from doing that at all, but I haven't been fighting an enemy for sixty years that plays by rules like that and wins. Israel has had their civilians specifically targeted for years by many groups, including Hezbollah. Israel is showing more care for civilians on both sides of the conflict than their enemies ever have, they are just showing less than they ever have before.

I've seen it mentioned more times than I remember that Israel is making a mistake by pissing off the Muslims and creating more terrorists. I think the terrorists finally made a mistake and pissed off the Israelis, who figure they have nothing to lose when surrounded by people that either actively try to kill them or will give aid and comfort to those who do. The UN has passed resolutions for Israel to follow, which they have. The UN has failed to enforce resolutions upon enemies of Israel, and they look to be sick of waiting for the world to do something about it.

[jochhejaam]

By the way, Jochhejaam

Being anti Israeli policy does not equate with being anti-semetic. You have taken this misidentification too far. :fro
I've never stated that being an anti Israel view has to equate to being anti-semitic. At times I look or ask for a qualification when someone states that they are anti-Israel.
It's helpful to get the facts before commenting.

[Obstructed_View]

I've never stated that being an anti Israel view has to equate to being anti-semitic. At times I look or ask for a qualification when someone states that they are anti-Israel.
It's helpful to get the facts before commenting.
Actually, when someone morally condemns one side while completely ignoring what the other side has done, and continues to do, I personally question their motivations.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=Doc Jerome]Your whole argument is flawed because you use statements as comparison for the purpose of justification. Perspective is one thing, but you continuously use these to distort perspective.
No, I continuously use the comparisons and bigger picture to put thing in perspective.





The tragic effects of government sanctioned school trips to sign live ammunition and telling the children who sign that they are sending a message; as if this will validate what they have written, is the height of inhumanity
You're right of course, even the holocaust seems humane compared to the missle signing.





for a people who's claim to the "holy land" is that they are indeed God's chosen. This does not put Jews or the Israeli government above moral condemnation or criticism. You know this and I suspect, that is why you lash out with insults.
No one's above condemnation and I'll reiterate that anyone finding the missle signing "beyond comprehension" is comprehension-challenged.
If the shoe fits, wear it.

[jochhejaam]

Actually, when someone morally condemns one side while completely ignoring what the other side has done, and continues to do, I personally question their motivations.

I freely admit that I'm not trying to present both sides of the arguement. I honestly couldn't see fit to argue for those that have hounded Israel since their inception, by policy murder their women and children and don't believe they have a right to exist. That in no way equates to my believing that Israel is perfect or responds to every attack in the most constructive way possible (altough they certainly put a lot of thought into their response). That side of the arguement is presented by others and if I disagree find it too extreme I'll submit a reply.

[clambake]

All of this rhetoric and not one suggestion of what Israel should do.

Keep in mind that Israel made concessions, which is very hard to do considering the Palestinians, Hamas, and Hezbollah accepted those concessions and still want to kill every Jew.

Now, Doc Jerome, I want you to tell Israel what to do.

[Doc Jerome]

The Israeli soldiers were taken as bargaining chips. Whoever took them was assuming the Israeli government was going to negotiate, much like they had done in the past. They did not. They just started bombing the infrastructure of the country. While I do not condone the tactics, the other side must feel they have nothing to lose in doing this. Hezbollah is claiming that Israel is holding over 300 political prisoners because of their anti-Israeli policy beliefs; many of whome were kidnapped in much the same way the Israeli soldiers were taken.

Look at all sides of the argument. I knew it was just a matter of time before the all powerful "ANTI-SEMITE" label would be thrown about. I am not. I just look at all sides and try to find reason where there is so much inhumanity.

Please don't use the holocaust to site anything. There is no comparison. And you simply do not have the right to use it in that way. I as an American citizen whose tax dollars are sent to Israel instead of being used here at home, do have a right to question American as well as Israeli policy when it is destabalizing a whole region.

I can say the same for much of your comments too. They do not deserve a response, therefore, I do not have to answer. I can just site what I have read and heard as fact, and if anyone questions me, just brand them uninformed and anti this and anti that. YOU are anti truth. :fro

[Doc Jerome]

Now, Doc Jerome, I want you to tell Israel what to do.

Start with diplomacy. The US and Israel should start a dialogue with Syria and Iran if they know, not believe, them to be the instigators of this mess. International law is spelled out what should be done, Israel seeks to circumvent by stating it is defending herself against rockets.

If you are supposed to be the sane adult on the block, do you seek to kill everyone in the house of the child that just threw a rock into your car window, and make life difficult for everyone on the block because of this. Oh, and if some neighbors get killed in the process, oh well, I warned everyone if I got mad, . . . look out. Now you go figure.


:fro

[spursmode]

Both sides are fucked up in ways. I think Israel would be happy if they weren't fucked with anymore and accepted as a legitimate country, but I don't know if this is possible.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=Doc Jerome]The Israeli soldiers were taken as bargaining chips. Whoever took them...
I can help you out here Doc, Hezbulloh kidnapped them.




Please don't use the holocaust to site anything. There is no comparison. And you simply do not have the right to use it in that way.
You cited the missle signing as "the height of inhumanity", I'll use whatever I feel necessary to expose how utterly asinine and ridiculous your statement was.





I as an American citizen whose tax dollars are sent to Israel instead of being used here at home, do have a right to question American as well as Israeli policy when it is destabalizing a whole region.
No one's arguing that. However if Hezubollah had not kidnapped the Israeli's and if they weren't presently indiscriminately firing 100 missles daily into Israel this discussion wouldn't be necessary. Any thoughts on hezbulloh's tatics and policies since your so concerned about the reasons for the inhumanity being shown in the conflict? (There's irony in having to solicit that from someone that claims to look at all sides of inhumanity)


I can say the same for much of your comments too. They do not deserve a response, therefore, I do not have to answer. I can just site what I have read and heard as fact, and if anyone questions me, just brand them uninformed and anti this and anti that. YOU are anti truth. :fro
I fully support your right to reply to my thoughts in any way you wish.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=Doc Jerome]Start with diplomacy. The US and Israel should start a dialogue with Syria and Iran if they know, not believe, them to be the instigators of this mess. International law is spelled out what should be done, Israel seeks to circumvent by stating it is defending herself against rockets.
Pardon the insult doc but you're a simple minded man if you believe that you can deal with terrorists through diplomacy. International law is effective only if all parties respect it.. Terrorists and Iran have thorough disdain and total disregard for International Law.




If you are supposed to be the sane adult on the block, do you seek to kill everyone in the house of the child that just threw a rock into your car window, and make life difficult for everyone on the block because of this. Oh, and if some neighbors get killed in the process, oh well, I warned everyone if I got mad, . . . look out. Now you go figure.
Come up with a better parallel, we're not dealing with rocks thrown through car windows, we're dealing with killing and murdering soldiers and almost 2,000 rockets being fired "inhumanely" into their Country.
And Israel is not seeking the destruction of everyone in the house, hezbulloh's exploitation of these areas is the catalyst for their destruction.
I Wouldn't be surprised if hezbulloh forbids the civilians from fleeing them.

[Doc Jerome]

Anyway, this is what happens when people talk politics. I've had enough of this. I'll just go do some frivolous sports talk.

[Doc Jerome]

One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter. You harbor too much hate to even begin to comprehend. Have a nice life pretending to pretend. :fro

[jochhejaam]

One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter. You harbor too much hate to even begin to comprehend. Have a nice life pretending to pretend. :fro
There's no pretending here. Hatred for terrorists and terrorism is well place hatred doc.

I guess political forums aren't for the faint in heart.

[danyel]

1) One could infer that if the Jews are indeed the chosen people by God, then everyone else is not and therefore less in some way.


Infer being the key word, as you certainly are far from being an expert in this subject what you choose to "infer" is your own problem, why you choose to infer such a thing, while mind boggling, its probably because of your lack of knowledge in the subject and your unwillingness to educate yourself.


The US and Israel should start a dialogue with Syria and Iran if they know, not believe, them to be the instigators of this mess

Who gave hezbollah the iranian missiles? Who killed the former Lebanese prime minister? Do you know anything about middle east history? Syria and Lebanon go way back, without Israel having much to do about it.


Israelis stole what they needed (supplies) to establish their country.

Another ignorant and missinformed (not to say intendedly misleading) post. You should read a little before making a complete fool of yourself with such stupid generalizations.

Just as an example, thousands of jews were allowed, and even encouraged, to leave Germany before the WWII They did have restrictions on how much money they could transfer abroad so many decided to buy goods and take them with them.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005468

More about Israel economy history from wikipedia



Two factors were instrumental in fostering rapid economic growth of the Jewish sector: immigration and capital inflows. The Jewish population increased mainly through immigration; by the end of 1947 it had reached 630,000, about 35 percent of the total population. Immigrants came in waves, particularly large in the mid 1920s and mid 1930s. They consisted of ideological Zionists and refugees, economic and political, from Central and Eastern Europe. Capital inflows included public funds, collected by Zionist institutions, but were for the most part private funds. National product grew rapidly during periods of large immigration, but both waves of mass immigration were followed by recessions, periods of adjustment and consolidation.

In the period from 1922 to 1947 real net domestic product (NDP) of the Jewish sector grew at an average rate of 13.2 percent, and in 1947 accounted for 54 percent of the NDP of the Jewish and Arab economies together. NDP per capita in the Jewish sector grew at a rate of 4.8 percent; by the end of the period it was 8.5 times larger in than in 1922, and 2.5 times larger than in the Arab sector (Metzer, 1998).

[Doc Jerome]

, its probably because of your lack of knowledge in the subject and your unwillingness to educate yourself.

Another ignorant and missinformed (not to say intendedly misleading) post. You should read a little before making a complete fool of yourself with such stupid generalizations.

Again, I can say the same thing about YOU. Turn off FOX for a second and think. I read enough to know you don't know what U think U know.

YOU all assume I am ignorant because you donot wish to hear another perspective or another version of the truth. There is enough blame to go around in that region of the country. It would prove to be more beneficial however, if there was not just one side being heard, and viewed with understanding.

Again, when weak in argument, please refer to the BS manual page 1. Call names, . . . Yo' momma.
:fro

[clambake]

When children and inocent are killed in Lebanon it's labeled a criminal act. When Israeli children and innocent are killed it's cause for celebration.

I would be a little more skeptical of claims being made by Hezbollah. I also understand the meaning of oppression. I'm from Ireland. Belfast. Our main interest were Brit soldiers, police and government officials. Collateral damage is an ingredient in the overall recipe. Indiscriminate missile attacks focused on innocent populations tends to ruin ones legitimate objectives.

[ChumpDumper]

More than likely a majority of those raised in the Midde East are and therein lies the problem.More than likely?

link.

[Doc Jerome]

Indiscriminate missile attacks focused on innocent populations tends to ruin ones legitimate objectives.

Who is celebrating the death of innocents? Innocent blood should be mourned, innocent blood of children is an unspeakable cowardly act, no matter who commits it.

I agree. Just know that these people admit to having no tanks or sophisticated weaponry to properly match state sponsored aggression. They adopted the suicide bombing tactic as a last resort. I believe, Hezbollah has renounced their claims to using this tactic. They no longer use this as a tactic. It is very unfortunate about all the missles, I am at a loss for words on that one, but they feel as though their struggle is not over. The ultimate objective of all parties should be assertained and perhaps this could be used as a starting point for peace.

[jochhejaam]

YOU all assume I am ignorant because you donot wish to hear another perspective or another version of the truth. There is enough blame to go around in that region of the country. It would prove to be more beneficial however, if there was not just one side being heard, and viewed with understanding.
:fro
All assuming you're ignorant is quite the generalization doc, and we get different perspectives all the time. Has the paranoia set in since your foray into this thread or has it always been there?
You have no control over how your posts are received, so just present your observations and arguements and stop whining about the negative reaction
(or don't).



p.s. What's up with the fro after every post doc?

[danyel]

Again, I can say the same thing about YOU. Turn off FOX for a second and think. I read enough to know you don't know what U think U know.

YOU all assume I am ignorant because you donot wish to hear another perspective or another version of the truth. There is enough blame to go around in that region of the country. It would prove to be more beneficial however, if there was not just one side being heard, and viewed with understanding.

Again, when weak in argument, please refer to the BS manual page 1. Call names, . . . Yo' momma.
:fro

No, I assume you are ignorant because you keep posting ignorant stuff and not backing any of them up. Its not a different side of the story, its just a bunch of crap...

And we dont get FOX News over here...

[jochhejaam]

More than likely?

link.
I expected you'd ask for that, that's why I began with the qualifier "more than likely". No link necessary.

However, if you present information that refutes that the majority are raised that way, I'll be glad to modify my post.

[Doc Jerome]

All assuming you're ignorant is quite the generalization doc, and we get different perspectives all the time. Has the paranoia set in since your foray into this thread or has it always been there?
You have no control over how your posts are received, so just present your observations and arguements and stop whining about the negative reaction
(or don't).



p.s. What's up with the fro after every post doc?

Frankly, I don't care how my posts are received, I am just trying to spark conversation and be somewhat cordial.

What is up with the picture of a black man on your avatar? I guess it's all just branding.
:fro

[ShackO]

You guys are aware that Muslim children are taught from birth that Jews drink the blood of non-Jewish children on Passover.

Just checking.

Really???? There must be plenty of info on that... Why not post some.... Maybe they don't have the boogey-man there yet..........:spin

[ShackO]

When Israel deliberately targets women and children, get back to us pdbm.

Till, then, the Muslim terrorists, in my book, are the sickests people in the planet.


Why do you qualify the deaths they cause.... SOmehow they have managed to kill far, far more women and children by accident then all the terrorist put together.... Look @ Lebanon right now......... These fools are firing primitive rockets and Israel has the best guided rockets and missles the USA can have them and they still kill hundreds of innocents.............

Israel fires a missle into an apartment bldg or crowed street killing INNOCENT people is that not deliberately then what the hell is?????????/

[ShackO]

Israel may not target children, but it sure doesn't care if they kill some.

terrorist are bad people, whether they are muslim, atheist, christian or jewish.

and nazis are far sicker than them.

---------------------

More than 40 people, including 20 children, have been killed in an Israeli air strike on the southern Lebanese town of Qana.

Displaced families had been sheltering in the basement of a site which was crushed after a direct hit.

The US secretary of state has cancelled a visit to Lebanon as its prime minister says he will only discuss a full and immediate ceasefire.

Hundreds of protesters are staging a violent demonstration in Beirut.

...

Qana was the site of an Israeli bombing of a UN base in 1996 that killed more than 100 people sheltering there during Israel's "Grapes of Wrath" offensive, which was also aimed at destroying Hezbollah.

Before Sunday's attack, the UN said some 600 people - about a third of them children - had been killed by Israeli action in Lebanon since their operations began 19 days ago.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/5228224.stm

----------------------------

Amen............

[clambake]

Those parents know that missiles are being fired from their backyards and driveways.

They may not support it but, they tolerate it with their presence.

[boutons_]

Apparently Israel has been dropping leaflets, issuing warnings to evacuate, radio, and phone text messaging, thereby tipping off Hezbollah, to try to reduce civilian casualites, and using precision, targeted ordnance.

Hezbollah, OTOH, has been firing crude, unguided anti-personnel rockets (filled with shrapnel) into civiliian populations. Not very effective so far, but where is the outrage at Hezbollah's totally different intention to kill civilians vs the Israelis' intention to kill Hezbollah?

How can people here can be upset with civilian casualties in Lebanon when their own country killed 100s of 1000s of civilians, purposely, in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and fire-bombed Tokyo and Dresden.

dubya's phony Iraq war has killed 50K Iraqi civilians in a country that did not attack or even threatenthe USA, starting with 100s, 1000s? of Iraqi civilians killed in shock-and-awe.

Israel cannot stop until Hezbollah is weakend seriously in S. Lebanon, and then a serious peace keeping force must occupy S. Lebanon to keep Hezbollah from threatening Israel from there.

[velik_m]

Israel was telling the people to get out, then it bombed the convoys with civilians leaving.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5182564.stm



A number of families were fleeing their village of Marwahin on the Israeli border when their convoy was struck by missiles on the coastal road to Tyre, a UN spokesman told the BBC.

Local residents told al-Jazeera TV the villagers had been hit after being told to leave Marwahin by the Israelis and then refused shelter by the UN forces.

The main road had been under continuous bombardment, Ahmad Ali Ubayd said.

[ShackO]

[QUOTE]
Unless they deny it, and PDBM hasn't done so, yes, it does.


Yes (that one was easy)


They're anti-sendingourtaxdollarstoIreland. (I believe I'm aceing the test so far)


You can get "shouted at" but you really can't get "shouted down" in a blog.



On the face of it, this statement is senseless. Perhaps you can expound on this one.


You're confusing the power to take and "keep" something with the legal rights to something.


Possession is 9/10's of the law, so we do.



Unless they deny it, and PDBM hasn't done so, yes, it does.

That is your opinion……. He could deny it and it still be so…….


Yes (that one was easy)…

WOW…… If someone is anti-American.. Which race are they hating on???
If someone is anti-North Korean and pro South Korean which race are they hating??



They're anti-sendingourtaxdollarstoIreland. (I believe I'm aceing the test so far)

I guess that was suppose to pass for humor???

You can get "shouted at" but you really can't get "shouted down" in a blog.
That is a figure of speech… I guess you have never heard before….


On the face of it, this statement is senseless. Perhaps you can expound on this one.

It is as senseless as your 9/10 of the law…. Any country rules some land by one right… And that is might… Throughout history lands have changed hands and rulers and they will control the land as long as they are strong enough to hold on to it… When they are no longer able to hold on to it they will be usurped by someone that is…
Quote:




DO they have some “right” to that land………. Yea as long as they have the power to keep it……



You're confusing the power to take and "keep" something with the legal rights to something.

I am confusing nothing………. What is legal??? Who is to say what is legal?? You?? The British??? The legality like the rules are defined by the victor….. There is no divine set of rules………..

Possession is 9/10's of the law, so we do.

HAHAHheeee….. By what “RIGHT” do we have it………….??? How does that differ from might makes right……??? You can’t have it both ways……….

[clambake]

I understand they have no tanks or sophisticated weaponry. I have personnal expeience in the necessity of using what you have. What is occurring in the middle east is similar to what so many suffered in Belfast. When a people force their will on another people, it changes your perspective.

But I can tell you this Doc, the fact that so many women and children were killed in that one strike is extremly telling.............Where were all the men?

Look deeper to find the answer.

[ShackO]

[QUOTE]
How does being give a piece of land by the United Nations, the size of New Jersey, equate to oppression of Arabs and Palestinians? And how does that parceling of land justify unabated attacks on Israel?[QUOTE]

.

The UN gave them the land??? By what right does the British or the UN or anyone have to give away that land to someone else???

You ever heard of the Belfour agreement..........??? You might want to get some history background first............. :smokin

If you "colonize" the land of someone else they are not going to be happy about it.. Regardless what you or I, the British or the UN thinks about it..

Like all the rest of the colonized ppl they are going to resist... By any means necessary...

I would hope they would find a way to take the high road similar to MLK, Gandhi and such.......... But I guess they are a little pissed off...

You can understand how the Israelis are pissed but unable to see how the colonized Arabs view it...

Were the American Indians terrorist for fighting for “their land”???

[ShackO]

[QUOTE]
I can help you out here Doc, Hezbulloh kidnapped them.




You cited the missle signing as "the height of inhumanity", I'll use whatever I feel necessary to expose how utterly asinine and ridiculous your statement was.





No one's arguing that. However if Hezubollah had not kidnapped the Israeli's and if they weren't presently indiscriminately firing 100 missles daily into Israel this discussion wouldn't be necessary. Any thoughts on hezbulloh's tatics and policies since your so concerned about the reasons for the inhumanity being shown in the conflict? (There's irony in having to solicit that from someone that claims to look at all sides of inhumanity)


I fully support your right to reply to my thoughts in any way you wish.



No one's arguing that. However if Hezubollah had not kidnapped the Israeli's :nope and if they weren't presently indiscriminately firing 100 missles daily into Israel this discussion wouldn't be necessary. Any thoughts on hezbulloh's tatics and policies since your so concerned about the reasons for the inhumanity being shown in the conflict? (There's irony in having to solicit that from someone that claims to look at all sides of inhumanity)

Why did they kidnap them???? :nope

It was simply for a prisoner exchange.. Why??? To get back some of their ppl that have been in jail for years without charges being brought against them and without due process……….

So then were the mass arrests and jailing without trial responsible for the dumb ass act of grabbing a few soldiers for exchange………. ???

When you turn a blind eye to the acts of one side…… You are able to only see one side…



History did not begin on that day… The causes go back a long way…

How many civilians, women and children have died thus far in Lebanon?? Israel has guided missiles and the best rockets the USA can provide and yet has killed 10 times more civilians then the arbitrary firing of the crude rockets into Israel…WTF

Just a thought…………”You notice the speck in the eye of your neighbor and yet do not notice the log in your own eye……….”

[sabar]

I like how the United States always ends up getting blamed somehow for every incident:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Qana_airstrike#Reactions_.5B14.5D

[DarkReign]

I would probably start with not having kids write messages on missiles.

Me neither, I would wrap them in TNT like any parent should.

[ShackO]

I like how the United States always ends up getting blamed somehow for every incident:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Qana_airstrike#Reactions_.5B14.5D


I guess it is like this......... If Syria and or Iran sell weapons to those "most of the world" consider as a non-terrorist org they are @ fault and face getting bombed...

But if innocent ppl are killed with bombs produced in the USA a different set of standards are used................ :nope

[Brutalis]

Good for them. They been taking too much shit over the years and it's payback.

[Obstructed_View]

Really???? There must be plenty of info on that... Why not post some.... Maybe they don't have the boogey-man there yet..........:spin
There is plenty of info. Here are the first three that came up in Google. Seriously, some of you motherfuckers had better think twice before labeling something "sick".


http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP105305

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP15000

http://www.pmw.org.il/LatestBulletins.htm

Here's a snippet from Wikipedia.

Modern Blood libels In Arab and Muslim nations
Blood libel stories have appeared a number of times in the state-sponsored media of a number of Arab and Muslim nations, their television shows and websites. Books promoting the myth of Jewish blood libel are not uncommon.

The Matzah Of Zion was written by the Syrian Defense Minister, Mustafa Tlass in 1983. The book concentrates on two issues: the alleged murder of Father Toma in Damascus, Syria in 1840, and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. On October 21, 2002, the London based Arabic paper Al-Hayat reported that the book was undergoing its eighth reprint and was being translated into English, French, and Italian.

In 2001 an Egyptian film company produced and aired a film called Horseman Without a Horse, partly based on Tlass's book. The book was cited at a United Nations conferences in 1991 by a Syrian delegate.

Some Arab writers have condemned these blood libels. The Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram published a series of articles by Osam Al-Baz, a senior advisor to Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. Amongst other things, Osam Al-Baz explained the origins of the anti-Jewish blood libel. He said that Arabs and Muslims have never been anti-Semitic, as a group, but accepted that a few Arab writers and media figures attack Jews "on the basis of the racist fallacies and myths that originated in Europe". He urged people not to succumb to "myths" such as the blood libel. (Source: Al-Ahram Weekly Online, January 2-8, 2003 (Issue No. 619), [2]

Multiple branches of the Syrian government, including the Damascus Police Command and the Department of Antiquities and Museums, the security ministry, the culture ministry, created an anti-Semitic television TV series called Ash-Shatat ("The Diaspora".) This series originally aired in Syria and in Lebanon late 2003, and was broadcast by Al-Manar, a satellite television network owned by Hezbollah. This TV series is based on the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, shows the Jewish people as engaging in a conspiracy to rule the world, and presents Jews as people who murder Christian children, drain their blood, and use this blood to bake matzah. This TV series was also recently (October 2005) shown in Jordan, on the satellite network Al-Mamnou. After complaints to the Jordanian government from Jewish organizations in the United States, the Jordanian government had the network stop televising the program. (source [3], [4], [5])

On December 20, 2005, in a discussion with Iranian political analysts aired on Jaam-e Jam 2 Iranian TV, the author of the book The History of the Jews who works for the Tehran Times Dr. Hasan Hanizadeh said in particular:
"Unfortunately, the West has forgotten two horrendous incidents, carried out by the Jews in 19th-century Europe - in Paris and London, to be precise. In 1883, about 150 French children were murdered in a horrible way in the suburbs of Paris, before the Jewish Passover holiday. Later research showed that the Jews had killed them and taken their blood. ... A similar incident took place in London, when many English children were killed by Jewish rabbis. ..."[6]

In a twist on the libel of Jews using blood in matzah, a Passover food, in 2002, a Saudi newspaper http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/645831/posts?page=2 claimed that Jews use blood in hamantashen, triangular cookies eaten on the Jewish holiday of Purim. The story celebrated on Purim, recounted in the Book of Esther, takes place in ancient Persia (modern-day Iran).
A 2004 story from Iran speaks of Jewish doctors stealing the eyes of Palestinian children in Israeli hospitals: http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archiv e\200412\FOR20041223c.html

[ShackO]

Oh I guess that is a good reason to kill all those kids in Lebanon.... Thnx for posting it

[Obstructed_View]

Oh I guess that is a good reason to kill all those kids in Lebanon.... Thnx for posting it
Oh I guess you aren't going to admit that you don't know everything. Thanks for wasting everyone's time.

[ShackO]

Don’t you think we have all heard those stupid and might I say irrelevant points before??? The fact that you have even bothered to post them seems ridiculous……

What relevance could that possibly have to anything on this topic………..??

Come on kid try and keep up…

Oh, and I never claimed to know everything…. But I damn sure know killing hundreds of innocent civilians is not going to help Lebanon or Israel…..

So far olmert’s defense of his manhood to the homeboys has brought about cooperation and talks of reconciliation between Sunni and Shia and the elevation of the status of pissbalah in the Arab world……… That seem less like a solution and more like shooting yourself in the foot……..

[gtownspur]

^Dude, go play your cello.

I don't know why you're overworked over all of this. THe Israelis don't provoke violence. It's the arabs.

This isn't the first time Israel has dealt with these problems, they happen year after year.

If you want less atrocities like these to occur, don't try to hold back the Israelis, the UN should pressure the arab world to respect the damn treaties they signed of peace, if not, send a peacekeeping force that will enforce those damn treaties.

Otherwise, you sound naive.

And i agree, israel's reactions are not dispraportional to the offense, but israel has held back, and when you keep throwing pebbles at a giant he will crush you.

Morale of the story kids is, Accept your defeat and go on with your lives.

[ShackO]

^Dude, go play your cello.

I don't know why you're overworked over all of this. THe Israelis :angel don't provoke violence. It's the arabs :devil .

This isn't the first time Israel :angel has dealt with these problems, they happen year after year.

If you want less atrocities like these to occur, don't try to hold back the Israelis :angel , the UN should pressure the arab :devil world to respect the damn treaties they signed of peace, if not, send a peacekeeping force that will enforce those damn treaties.

Otherwise, you sound naive.

And i agree, israel's :angel reactions are not dispraportional to the offense, but israel :angel has held back, and when you keep throwing pebbles at a giant he will crush you.

Morale of the story kids is, Accept your defeat and go on with your lives.

Lol…… Hahaheeeeee it is all the other guys fault… :bang


Ever wonder why they have to deal with it year after year??? The Arabs are not going to ever give up till they get back their holy land…

What treaties where those you are referring to that the Arabs signed giving their land to Israel???? Talk about naïve…. You have no idea what you are even talking about…

The moral of the story is: If you go out and colonize someone else’s land expect them to fight to get it back….. See: Africa, Asia, American Indians etc…

Rather than crush pissbalah they have now elevated their status in the Arab world… The Arabs will never give up “their holy land”……. So the giant can do what he wants with America’s blessing but in the end I believe the perseverance of the Arabs will prevail….
:grim:

[Obstructed_View]

Ever wonder why they have to deal with it year after year??? The Arabs are not going to ever give up till they get back their holy land…
Wrong. They won't give up until the Jews are dead. The land for Israel was purchased from the Turks and the area concerned was historically referred to as "greater syria" by the arabs, who never considered it much of anything. If you are going to throw the term "holy land" around, then you might want to peruse Genesis 15:18-21, which predates the entire religion of Islam by about a thousand years.

And the reason they have to deal with it year after year is because of people making them stop defending themselves, only to be attacked again and again from the same territory in Lebanon where the PLO gained all their momentum.



What treaties where those you are referring to that the Arabs signed giving their land to Israel???? Talk about naïve…. You have no idea what you are even talking about…
80 percent of the land in the Palestine mandate was used to create what is now Jordan, and Jewish immigration was forbidden from the moment it was created, a violation of the Balfour Declaration, which stated that it wouldn't do anything to interfere with the status or rights of anyone living in Palestine.


The moral of the story is: If you go out and colonize someone else’s land expect them to fight to get it back….. See: Africa, Asia, American Indians etc…
Okay, except that you have it backwards. Israel are the Indians, and they're in their equivalent of Indian Territory, and we all know what happened to that.


Rather than crush pissbalah they have now elevated their status in the Arab world… The Arabs will never give up “their holy land”……. So the giant can do what he wants with America’s blessing but in the end I believe the perseverance of the Arabs will prevail….
:grim:
Actually, the way that Hezbollah's status elevates is when the world community forces Israel to stop bombing Hezbollah. What the Arabs will never give up is the goal to wipe out the Jews. It's funny that you would refer to Israel as "the giant" when it's surrounded by the majority of 1.4 billion muslims who want nothing more than the death of every Jew on the planet.

Time for you to come up with a solution. What should Israel do?

[Extra Stout]

It may be overstating the case to say that the Arabs' goal is to exterminate the Jews. Iran is as virulently anti-Israel as any Arab country, but their own Iranian Jews they happily keep as officially discriminated-against dhimmis.

The destruction of the Jewish state is their goal, because they view that land as non-negotiable Dar-al-Islam. They would be pleased merely to persecute the Jews, rather than slaughter them outright.

[Yonivore]

It may be overstating the case to say that the Arabs' goal is to exterminate the Jews. Iran is as virulently anti-Israel as any Arab country, but their own Iranian Jews they happily keep as officially discriminated-against dhimmis.

The destruction of the Jewish state is their goal, because they view that land as non-negotiable Dar-al-Islam. They would be pleased merely to persecute the Jews, rather than slaughter them outright.
Point taken.

[ShackO]

It may be overstating the case to say that the Arabs' goal is to exterminate the Jews. Iran is as virulently anti-Israel as any Arab country, but their own Iranian Jews they happily keep as officially discriminated-against dhimmis.

The destruction of the Jewish state is their goal, because they view that land as non-negotiable Dar-al-Islam. They would be pleased merely to persecute the Jews, rather than slaughter them outright.

True.......... Not every player has the same goal....... I think there are many Palestinians willing to live along side Israel if they can get a viable entity in which to support their families.... That is considering that Jerusalem is made an international city.....

When the conflict began the states lined up against Israel were sectarian… Now the conflict has evolved to have the religious wackO’s playing a major role with one expressed goal the return of “their holy land”…….

.

[ShackO]

Wrong. They won't give up until the Jews are dead. The land for Israel was purchased from the Turks and the area concerned was historically referred to as "greater syria" by the arabs, who never considered it much of anything. If you are going to throw the term "holy land" around, then you might want to peruse Genesis 15:18-21, which predates the entire religion of Islam by about a thousand years.

And the reason they have to deal with it year after year is because of people making them stop defending themselves, only to be attacked again and again from the same territory in Lebanon where the PLO gained all their momentum.



80 percent of the land in the Palestine mandate was used to create what is now Jordan, and Jewish immigration was forbidden from the moment it was created, a violation of the Balfour Declaration, which stated that it wouldn't do anything to interfere with the status or rights of anyone living in Palestine.


Okay, except that you have it backwards. Israel are the Indians, and they're in their equivalent of Indian Territory, and we all know what happened to that.


Actually, the way that Hezbollah's status elevates is when the world community forces Israel to stop bombing Hezbollah. What the Arabs will never give up is the goal to wipe out the Jews. It's funny that you would refer to Israel as "the giant" when it's surrounded by the majority of 1.4 billion muslims who want nothing more than the death of every Jew on the planet.

Time for you to come up with a solution. What should Israel do?


Your bull shit is unworthy of response…….. :pctoss When you are ready to be real please feel free to join in……. Oh and thanX for playing………… :violin

[Obstructed_View]

Your bull shit is unworthy of response…….. :pctoss When you are ready to be real please feel free to join in……. Oh and thanX for playing………… :violin
I quote you history and documented fact, and you gloss over it. This is the third time that you have absolutely nothing substantive to bring other than your commitment to ignorance.

[Obstructed_View]

It may be overstating the case to say that the Arabs' goal is to exterminate the Jews. Iran is as virulently anti-Israel as any Arab country, but their own Iranian Jews they happily keep as officially discriminated-against dhimmis.

The destruction of the Jewish state is their goal, because they view that land as non-negotiable Dar-al-Islam. They would be pleased merely to persecute the Jews, rather than slaughter them outright.

It's overstating the case simply because it assumes that all arabs are muslim and insofar as exterminating the state of Israel and enslaving the women and children, as is the stated right of a conquering army by the Koran, is not technically extermination.

[RandomGuy]

Oh, and I never claimed to know everything…. But I damn sure know killing hundreds of innocent civilians is not going to help Lebanon or Israel…..

So far olmert’s defense of his manhood to the homeboys has brought about cooperation and talks of reconciliation between Sunni and Shia and the elevation of the status of pissbalah in the Arab world……… That seem less like a solution and more like shooting yourself in the foot……..

It is something of a lose/lose situation for the Israelis.

I think that the consequences of doing nothing in the face of Hezbullah are more severe for Israel than what they are doing.

The talks of sunni/shia reconcilliation may be there, but the fact that Hezbullah is NOT a government makes other governments a tad nervous.

Hezbullah is seen (rightly in my opinion) as an extension of Iran and an attempt by Iran to increase its own influence. There may be some sunni/shia rapproachment but there will never be any active support for Hezbullah from Sunni governments outside of Syria

[ShackO]

It is something of a lose/lose situation for the Israelis.

I think that the consequences of doing nothing in the face of Hezbullah are more severe for Israel than what they are doing.

The talks of sunni/shia reconcilliation may be there, but the fact that Hezbullah is NOT a government makes other governments a tad nervous.

Hezbullah is seen (rightly in my opinion) as an extension of Iran and an attempt by Iran to increase its own influence. There may be some sunni/shia rapproachment but there will never be any active support for Hezbullah from Sunni governments outside of Syria

That is true............There are no simple answers here...... War now days is live and every detail is questioned and probed......



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/97/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png