The Future Of Hezbollah

[MannyIsGod]

Barring a change in the current tactics and political situation, I really don't see a way that Israel's current attacks can do anything but lift Hezbollah within the region.

As it currently stands, there is debate within Isreal's intelligence services as to the current harm and stength of Hezbollah:



The heads of two Israeli intelligence agencies disagree over how much the IDF assault has damaged Hezbollah, although both say the group has been weakened.

The Mossad intelligence agency says Hezbollah will be able to continue fighting at the current level for a long time to come, Mossad head Meir Dagan said.

However, Military Intelligence chief Amos Yadlin disagrees, seeing Hezbollah as having been severely damaged.http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743736.html

I don't know the stength/breakup of the Isreali intelligence services, but I was under the assumption the Mossad was considred to be one of the better services throughout the world on par with the CIA but that may be with the military intelligence services included. Either way, I think it has been prooven time and time again that bombing of terrorists simply isn't going to get the job done.

Nassrallah's status within the region isn't nearly as debateable right now. He's been elevated quite a bit and Hezbollah itself has been elevated up to a level on par within the region.



July 30, 2006 — The longer the conflict between Israel and the Shiite militia group Hezbollah goes on, the greater becomes the legend of Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah's 46-year-old leader.

Nasrallah may be enemy number one in Israel, but he is the man of the moment in parts of the Arab world.

"Hezbollah delivers the goods," said Fawaz Gerges a Middle East expert and an ABC News consultant. "Hezbollah has stood up to Israel. Hezbollah has proven its muscles."

It is quite a transformation. Just a couple of weeks ago, moderate Arab allies of the United States were highly critical of Hezbollah and Nasrallah, its leader of 14 years, for picking this fight with the Jewish state.

Saudi Arabia called it "unexpected, inappropriate and irresponsible," something that will pull the whole region back years.

But two things have happened since.

First, Hezbollah fighters on the ground have shocked the Israelis with their tenacity. Into the third week of fighting, Hezbollah rockets still are falling routinely on northern Israel.

Second, Israel's offensive, which has killed more Lebanese civilians than Hezbollah fighters, has inflamed the Arab world.

Arab television has provided a steady diet of displaced refugees, and wounded and dying Lebanese victims.

Now, America's friends in places like Cairo, Egypt and Amman, Jordan, are more than worried.

"They are terrified, and they are anxious that the Israeli war in Lebanon de-legitimizes the pro-American regimes," Gerges said.

So the moderates have dropped the complaints about Hezbollah in favor of criticizing Israel — a much safer tactic.

"The huge popularity of Hezbollah and his leader within the Arab public," said Ghassan Khatib of the Jerusalem Media and Communications Center, "has made it difficult for anybody to criticize them or them or their acts."



http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Mideast/story?id=2253838

[IceColdBrewski]

Looks like Iran/Hezbollah got what they wanted. They drew Israel into a conflict, and elevated their standing among many Arab countries. All while using the UN as human shields to make Israel look like the bad guy. Somehow, this is all Bush's fault.

[MannyIsGod]

Looks like Iran/Hezbollah got what they wanted. They drew Israel into a conflict, and elevated their standing among many Arab countries. All while using the UN as human shields to make Israel look like the bad guy. Somehow, this is all Bush's fault.If you plan on debating, then do so, but save all the regurgitated bullshit for another thread.

[Doc Jerome]

Hezbollah is interwoven into the fabric of daily life in southern Lebonon. There is no way to get rid of the idea of freedom without getting rid of the people who hold the idea as a cause to be championed. While I do not think the Israelis are trying to kill everyone that share that idea in the region, it was their intention to inflict serious harm on these people in the hopes of changing their opinions about Hezbollah. They grossly mis calculated and have thoroughly failed; thereby, strengthening the idea of that freedom championed by Hezbollah.

It will be Hezbollah and organizations affiliated with them who will rebuild and help reestablish schools and food programs to benefit the people in the region. Those people will bleed Hezbollah flavored blood now. There is no choice for all involved, YOU will have to talk seriously with Hezbollah leadership. They will truly have the support of the people, and the people run Lebonon, not the sellout politicians. That's why groups like Hezbollah thrive, they have the support of the people because the organization germinates from the common oppressed man on the street.

[clambake]

I don't think their as worried about changing peoples opinions as they are worried about preventing missiles from landing in their towns and citys.

Defending themselves is nothing new to them.

[Extra Stout]

Even if Israel somehow destroyed Hezbollah, there would rise up another version of it in its stead.

The common, everyday Muslim wants to see Israel destroyed. It will not be difficult for the anti-Israel terror groups to find new recruits. In the heart of most every Muslim, that land is Dar al-Islam, the existence of Israel is an usurpation, and they are going to fight for it until they have nothing left to fight with.

That Israel continues to exist is a function of their enormous advantage in wealth and firepower. If they are going to have peace with their neighbors, it's not going to come in months or years or decades. It will be centuries until the will of the Arabs is broken.

But if the Arabs ever break through and look like they are going to win, well, there won't be many of them left to celebrate it. If Israel ever comes to the brink of destruction, they will execute the Masada Plan and take out as many Muslims as they can. In the Masada Plan, the Israelis launch nuclear warheads at every major population center their warheads can reach and kill hundreds of millions of people.

The more extreme Muslims think that is an acceptable trade-off.

So that's the thick and the thin of it.

[Doc Jerome]

The common, everyday Muslim wants to see Israel destroyed.

It will be centuries until the will of the Arabs is broken.

But if the Arabs ever break through and look like they are going to win, well, there won't be many of them left to celebrate it. If Israel ever comes to the brink of destruction, they will execute the Masada Plan and take out as many Muslims as they can. In the Masada Plan, the Israelis launch nuclear warheads at every major population center their warheads can reach and kill hundreds of millions of people.

The more extreme Muslims think that is an acceptable trade-off.

So that's the thick and the thin of it.

I know lots of Muslims and they don't think that.

The spirit of a people can never be broken.

If that is true, than Israel does not deserve nuclear weapons. They must be disarmed at all cost. But of course, I do not believe such a plan exists.
:fro

[Extra Stout]

I know lots of Muslims and they don't think that.

The spirit of a people can never be broken.

If that is true, than Israel does not deserve nuclear weapons. They must be disarmed at all cost. But of course, I do not believe such a plan exists.
:fro
The common, everyday Muslim wants to see Israel destroyed.

By that, I do not mean nuking Tel Aviv.

I mean they wish to see the Jewish state dismantled and a Muslim state of Palestine erected in its place.

If you know Muslims that don't think that way, then they have been heavily Americanized.

[Extra Stout]

And yes, the Masada plan exists.

I'm curious how you would go about "disarming" a nuclear power.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, this thread ended up being about he future of Hezbollah for all of 1 post.

[Extra Stout]

Well, this thread ended up being about he future of Hezbollah for all of 1 post.
Every time Israel cuts off the dragon's head, ten grow back in its place. Hezbollah isn't going anywhere. Israel may destroy their positions to the point they can't launch any more rockets for the time being, but they'll be back.

[MannyIsGod]

The U.S.-Israel strategy of pounding Hezbollah could also backfire, former Bush officials warn. "Don't get me wrong -- if I thought that this air campaign would work and would eliminate [Hasan] Nasrallah and the leadership of Hezbollah, I think it would all be fine," former deputy secretary of state Richard L. Armitage said on National Public Radio this week. "But I fear that you can't do that from the sky and that you're going to end up empowering Hezbollah and perhaps introducing a dynamic into the body politic in Lebanon that will take some great period of time to recover from."

Is Isreal even cutting the head off any dragons this time? It seems more like empowering the dragon.

[IceColdBrewski]

Well, this thread ended up being about he future of Hezbollah for all of 1 post.

Boo friggen hoo. :rolleyes

We've all read your opinions on the current situation. You don't want a debate. You want another thread to talk about YOUR version of how the Israeli's are handling Hezbollah so badly. Don't get pissy just because some of us can see through your BS.

[MannyIsGod]

Boo friggen hoo. :rolleyes

We've all read your opinions on the current situation. You don't want a debate. You want another thread to talk about YOUR version of how the Israeli's are handling Hezbollah so badly. Don't get pissy just because some of us can see through your BS.No, what I'm tired is the lack of substance. The same sarcastic bullshit responses you always get around here and the way every thread degrades into the same old bitch fest as the previous one. No one ever stays on topic.

If you have something of substance to point out showing Hezbollah being hurt in a meaningful way by these attacks, then bring it.

If not just STFU.

[clambake]

I don't see how any of this will truely degrade Hezbollah. More likely spur recruitment.

They already attack like gypsies and disapear into the landscape, only to re-emerge somewhere else. Like swatting flies with a sledgehammer.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The whole idea behind Israel's attacks was that it would get to the point where Lebanon would send their army in and deal with Hezbollah themselves.

That's pretty much backfired at this point. I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think Israel is doing everything it can to limit the civilian casualty numbers.

[MannyIsGod]

The whole idea behind Israel's attacks was that it would get to the point where Lebanon would send their army in and deal with Hezbollah themselves.

That's pretty much backfired at this point. I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think Israel is doing everything it can to limit the civilian casualty numbers.I think it has been established that they were trying to blame Hezbollah for the civillian deaths, but the Lebanese people just aren't buying that. It was poorly thought out at best.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

They should just deploy mass troops into lebanon, and go door to door murdering any muslim in their paths.

There is no way hizbollah gets uprooted if the common person is truely sympathizing with them more than ever. All that does is strengthen a guerilla army's power. But it will take far more than civilian support to make hizbollah a dominating influence in lebanon, even if something drastic happens like israel becoming severely weakened.

They, like any other guerilla tactic militia, are here to stay unless you go overkill. I hoped Israel was going to go overkill, but they're just being stupid and its obvious now.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Futhermore, bombing the supposed leaders via air strike will never do anything either. The appendages will grow back, even the head. If you truely want to take the wind out of a faction, destroy its purpose, its reason for existing, or if you can't do that, stomp the life and will of its supporters, crush them so hard that they can't dream about ever supporting such a regime ever again.

Neither has been or will be done.

[whottt]

Takes off politically correct hat for a moment.

Thanks god you guys haven't ever been the leader of people because if you had, your people would be the shank ass bitch of every bully you met.

Why do civilllians gets killed?

Because Hezbolla and all terrorist utlize guerilla warfar, which means cover activing and blending in with civillian populace...

If Hezbolla and Al Qaeda and all these other fucks want to prevent cillians casualties, then they get theri little asses out there in the middle of the desert and die like men.

Of course, they don't want to do that...they want civillians put at risk, they want the fog of war.


Because of that civillians are going to die and anyone that thinks that civillians are dying due to carelessness and not the machinations of the folk many of you think we should be negotiating with, is fucking stupid.

It's not Israel's job to protect Lebanese civillians, it's Lebanon's...it's also Lebanon's job to prevent radical segments of it's population from embroiling it in a war.

I realize this government of Lebanon is fledgeling...but fuck it...Hezbollah is going to be eliminated...

The escalation is beign done by Israel...

And Israel is not losing anything...

Used to be Israel could get attatcked on all sides...now it's small segments of idiots that hide amongst women and children.


Anyone that thinks that terrorism is any way winning any kind of war, or even coming close to achieving their goals, is on crack...

And they need to check out a middle east map sometime...

Because last I checked the American Military is so far up the ass of the middle east compared to where they were 5 years ago, it isn't even funny.

And Israel is getting into the act now too.

[whottt]

Oh back to my original point...

This other will spring up in their place...

Fatalistic...that's what terrorists want you to believe, because believing that will deter you from attacking them, but history shows that never to be true.


The fucking Japanese were to every man woman and child willing were willing to die for Japan using all their skill...

A few nukes fixed that shit.

Germany was an unstoppable powerhouse of techonology and will...

A non stop bombing capaign fixed that shit.


IT's on...and they will never win this war, they'll just become extinct.

Technology rules....and cultures that embrace it rule as well...unless they become a bunch of overliberal dumbasses that think killing machines can be negotiated with....that think they even want to negotiate.



I watch guys jump back and forth on this...

On the one hand when the US or Israel breaks out the asswhupping stick....

Everyone whines, oh horrible civillian loss of life, how monstrous...never seeming to get it that the terrorist want this.


Then when Israel or the US pull back, it's...oh what a quagmire, a never ending quagmire, we bit off more thant we can chew.



IT's just fucking lame...


Fact:

Israel has the capability to end this shit tomorrow by just wiping every motherfucker out.


Fact: US also has the capability to end their shit tomorrow, by just wiping every mother fucker out.

And I don't mean with nukes either.

And eventually, that's what's going to happen, unless they give them the barbarians time to storm the gate...



That's the reality...

It's not this Hezbollah can never be stopped...it's that Israel isn't doing everything they can to stop them.

But they are getting to that point.


Am I the only one that realizes that the Gaza pullout was for this express purpose?

Scratch that...Iran notices.


Damn...look at a map sometime dudes.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

They are getting into the act but they are not doing anything that will make any changes in the next 2-10 years. What you say about guerilla tactics is true--but even if some lebanese civilians realize their relatives just got killed by Israeli bombs due to Hizbollah's guerilla nature, you can't deny alot of them are going to stick with the first natural human response and hate those that immediately brought them harm.

Israel is getting into the action but they need to use as much force as possible and start a ground invasion combined with air power to isolate and destroy major hizbollah hot spots. Something hardcore like that. If they are worried about devoting too many resources to that and leaving themselves open to attack, its still okay cuz we'll bail them out, leading to our picture perfect scene of World War Four. Which is what those dirty muslims want even though they will most definitely lose if we stick it out long enough. It's situations like these I wish the republicans had even more power--if we're going to fuck up the middle eastern world we might as well do it right, if that makes sense.

[whottt]

If you bring a knife to a gunfight.....You going to die and likely not do any harm to the guy holding the gun. I don't care how determined you are. And if he's holding an uzi, it can be 100 guys with knives, they still going to die. And there is a finite amount...of terrorists.


Yes it is in the realm of possiblity for the guy with the knife to actually kill the guy with the gun and win the battle...




But only if the guy with the gun is an extreme, and I mean an extreme dumbass. If he is actually stupid, or he is extremely arrogant...it could happen.



But since you have to be pretty fucking stupid to take a knife to a gunfiught in the first place, it is extremely rare for this to happen...Especially since the guy holding th gun in this fight, is smart enough to build it, and the guys holding the knives are stupid enough to think they can win a gunfight with a knife.

America and Israel aren't that stupid yet....not enough ultraliberals yet.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Despite all our bitching, I still see Israel taking the only real course it can. It IS afraid to launch a truely extensive land campaign. And it IS impossible to avoid collateral damage against a guerilla foe.

Dirty dirty muslims. Hizbollah will never be destroyed if we continue this pace. But even if we attempt to destroy it, it will mean what we all know - world war four. I don't mean to include the connotations and stigma of what we think when we hear world war, but in the basic sense of the word it will be a war involving many countries. Do we want that? I don't see us losing such a battle (given that korea and china don't do the unthinkable and launch take advantage of the chaos to surprise attack us) but it will take a very long time to win, and even longer to brainwash the people into not hating us.
It's so pointless. Why did Allah hide all our oil there? Why did those dumbass english imperialists plant a bunch of muslims on jewish holy land? We're steadily passing a point of no return, whether it be into world war or regional muslim war, it is coming.

[whottt]

I look at it this way....

Saudi Government - extremely unpopular with it's people. Many of which are Islamic fundamentalists.

Jordanian Government - extremely unpopular with it's people. Many of which are Islamic fundamentalists.

Egyptian Government - extremely unpopular with it's people. Many of which are Islamic fundamentalists.

Saddam - extremely unpopular with his people. Many of which are Islamic fundamentalists.

Pakistani Government - extremely unpopular with his people. Many of which are Islamic fundamentalists.

Syrian Government - extremely unpopular with it's people. Many of which are Islamic fundamentalists.

Check the emmigration stats if nothing else.

And none of them are true Islamic states. Although Pakistan is supposed to be but let's face it, it's a military dictatorship. Saudi Arabia isn't even a true Islamic state...it's a Monarchy that tries to claim it's Islamic.

How come you hardly ever even hear a whimper of dissent or serious threat to the leadership from within these countries? Even though they are loaded with these so called unstoppable terrorist groups?

You know...every time I fall 10 will rise up in my place...etc.


Because Islamic Fundamentalist aren't near as tough to control or as infinite as you guys think they are. And they get living shit kicked out of them by these governments and forced out(then they call them Palestinians)

It's only when they are attacking Israel or us or vocalizing their dissent with us that the governments have control issues with their populations....

Not to sound like a fascist...but sometimes it's the way it's got to be. Survival of the fittest.

Technologically, we and Israel etc are the fittest...mentally? IE as in the willingness to do what it takes to win? Just barely....we are just barely willing to do what it takes..We fight with one arm tied behind our back, in the name of humanity, and we are the only ones doing this. Untie the other arm and let's get this shit over with...it won't make us like them unless we put in these inhuman aristocratic despotisms like the British and French did, when they put all these shitty governments in power after WWI.

Yes it is possible to be both strong and fair, cold and cruel until the battle is won and then be just, and have it a be a good thing...see WWII. Is Japan a shitole? Is Germany?

Check the immigration stats and see....



Debate the morality of it all you want....but just don't be naive about the causes of these conflicts, and what it will take to win, or why civillians are getting killed, or why terrorist leader say the things they say to keep from being attacked full force....

Me personally, I have no desire to be pratying towards Mecca 5 times a day...when they get nukes they'll nuke us without a second thought...so I say let's just finish this shit while we have the upperhand, civillians will die, civillians are going to die here as well eventually, could be you, could be me, but it's going to happen, and it will be a direct attack, not due to fog of war...and if we are too stupid to win this conflict of the past vs the future, with the capability to easily do so, then we deserve what happens to us. And we deserve to lose.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

So we should nuke mecca?

[sabar]

You can't win a non-conventional war. Sad truth.
It won't stop until a government sprouts up that is actually supported by the people. Plus this government has the added requirement of not wanting total destruction of Isreal, which goes against what many people think. You can't satisfy both things. Not unless you kill every person that believes in that viewpoint.

[Nbadan]

Me personally, I have no desire to be pratying towards Mecca 5 times a day...when they get nukes they'll nuke us without a second thought...so I say let's just finish this shit while we have the upperhand, civillians will die, civillians are going to die here as well eventually, could be you, could be me, but it's going to happen, and it will be a direct attack, not due to fog of war...and if we are too stupid to win this conflict of the past vs the future, with the capability to easily do so, then we deserve what happens to us. And we deserve to lose.

Pray tell, if you really believe this manure why isn't your ass in Iraq right now?

Pakistan has nukes, has had them for years, and Israel is still there. We can argue whether Pakistan is an Islamic nation or not all you want, but there is little doubt that the Pakistani ISI (its version of the CIA) has elements that are very sympathetic to Al Queda.

Maybe the real reason countries like Iran want nuclear weapons is because they figure that the U.S. doesn't invade countries that have nukes.

[Nbadan]

How come you hardly ever even hear a whimper of dissent or serious threat to the leadership from within these countries? Even though they are loaded with these so called unstoppable terrorist groups?

Vocal dissenters are jailed and executed, and the Governments control the press, so unless you have some sort of way to communicate with the dead, your not likely hear of threats to ME rulers.

[Nbadan]

Because last I checked the American Military is so far up the ass of the middle east compared to where they were 5 years ago, it isn't even funny.

The way I see it, the American military is booged down in Iraq because our leadership has failed to make the tough decision needed to win this war (i.e. a draft). The situation in Iraq is so strained even Baghdad is in danger of falling into all out civil war because of the violence. Even if we wanted to attack Iran or Syria, there is no way we could do much more than air strikes and that would likely to start a regional ground war that America can ill afford. No, we aren't up anyones ass, in fact, the American military is strained so thin and its equipment collapsing so quickly because of the tough conditions in Iraq, without the injection of billions and billions of more emergency tax dollars in the next decade, our military would collapse.

[Nbadan]

The common, everyday Muslim wants to see Israel destroyed

Misconception. A majority of moderate Muslims can live peacefully with Israel, in fact, most do.

[spurster]

The common, everyday Muslim wants to see Israel destroyed.

Link?

I agree though that way too many Muslims want to see everyone and every nation Islamic. Because the Koran is exactly the words of God to Gabriel to Mohammad, there is little wiggleroom for interpretation. Either you are Muslim or you are an infidel. Until Islam can break out of Medievalism, we are in for a religious conflict.

BushCo is not helping very much in trying to reduce the separation of church and state in this country. Our goal should not be to have the majority religion dominate the law.

[whottt]

Pray tell, if you really believe this manure why isn't your ass in Iraq right now?


Because I can't get medical clearance to join....which I tried to do after September 11th.

I actually went to SA and got my physical, scored a 93 on the AVSAB and at the physician interview as I was being told I could pretty much do whatever I wanted, the physician, a retired neurosurgeon, noticed that I had an allergy to Dylantin and nailed me for having had a severe head injury at the age of 16. Something I didn't admit to on my application(per my recruiter).

He then told me that I would need both medical clearance from the neurosurgeon who operated on me and I would need to undergo a battery of physcological evaluations, x rays and catscans before I could get approved.




The physician that performed the surgery is dead, therefore I cannot get medical clearance and I cannot join the US Military, any branch, in any capacity, as a reservist or otherwise...partially, because I cannot be cleared for any kind of lifting, and partially because I have a chance of having a seizure(which has never happened). Those reasons, in addition to the possible psychological disorders that people with head injuries are prone to having....



IOW, I guess they didn't want me going Charles Whitman on them ;)

That's why.




Pakistan has nukes, has had them for years, and Israel is still there.

Pakistan is an Islamic Country in name only and it's military dictator is for all intents and purposes Pro Western.




We can argue whether Pakistan is an Islamic nation or not all you want, but there is little doubt that the Pakistani ISI (its version of the CIA) has elements that are very sympathetic to Al Queda.

Well so did the CIA...but Pakistan is very dependent on foreign trade and has no mineral wealth to speak of....they are not a true Islamic Country in terms of Leadership and they are heavily economically dependent on other nations.




Maybe the real reason countries like Iran want nuclear weapons is because they figure that the U.S. doesn't invade countries that have nukes.


Well of course that's one reason....but they are also sworn to destroy Israel and refuse to acknowledge it's existence and since they also fund(both covertly and non covertly) Radical Islamic groups, the idea of them getting extensive nuclear tech and materials is a scary one.

[whottt]

Vocal dissenters are jailed and executed, and the Governments control the press, so unless you have some sort of way to communicate with the dead, your not likely hear of threats to ME rulers.


Um....these fundamentalist groups also want to overthrow the governments of the mid-east monarchies...

And thank you for proving my point...they can be stifled, they can be controlled...as the leaders of these countries do.

[whottt]

The way I see it, the American military is booged down in Iraq because our leadership has failed to make the tough decision needed to win this war (i.e. a draft). The situation in Iraq is so strained even Baghdad is in danger of falling into all out civil war because of the violence. Even if we wanted to attack Iran or Syria, there is no way we could do much more than air strikes and that would likely to start a regional ground war that America can ill afford. No, we aren't up anyones ass, in fact, the American military is strained so thin and its equipment collapsing so quickly because of the tough conditions in Iraq, without the injection of billions and billions of more emergency tax dollars in the next decade, our military would collapse.



False....

Your partisan politics require you to believe this...

But the strategy has always been clear...

And you have never gotten it...as you proved often by continually asking why Iraq was chosen first....

[clambake]

If the strategy has always been clear, then its time for a new strategy.

You must be a big fan of "The struggle and fail" strategy.
You must be a big fan of "The hearts and Minds" strategy.

Whott do you expect? They couldn't find a legitimate reason for invading Iraq.

[whottt]

Nbadan do you remember what the Bush Admid said at the start of this war?

They didn't say it was going to take months, they didn't say it was going to be a quickly won war, they didn't say there were going to be hard and fast alliances.


They said it was going to take decades, they said some countries would be allies at times and enemies at others, that the alliances and coalitions would change...

You just weren't listening.

But the plan has always been to rid the Middle East of the Post WWI and II Despotic Regimes...the true causes of terrorism.

This means Saudi, Iran, Syria, Jordan, et al.

These dumbass kings or religios fanatics that don't understand how to govern the large populations they rule over and stay in power the same way Socialist and Communist Regimes do(once people realize how badly their governments suck)...by Force agains thte popular will of the people.

It's the opressive regimes and lack of civil rights, as well as accountable government, in the Middle East that causes terrorism...

Israel and the US are just where these leaders direct their anger.

It's easy to make the have nots hate the havs....

But the question you should be asking is why are these minerally rich countries the have nots, while Israel, which has no mineral wealth, is the have? Yes they get aid...but so do the Palestinians, and so does every other country in the Middle East except for Iran and Saudi.





These leaders sit there and talk about colinization and imperialism, unless you are an idiot, you know that is not the history of America in the 20th century....unless the alternative was Communism...hell it's not our history ever....our history is overthrowing colonialism.

Take a look at Japan, take a look a Germany, hell, take a look at France.

Are those American Colonies? Are they inhumane shitholes?(Check the immigration numbers). The American Military stood in "occupation" of all of them...


Sorry but you just don't get it dude....and it's because of what you don't know, and your personal, hardwired political bias.

[whottt]

If the strategy has always been clear, then its time for a new strategy.

You must be a big fan of "The struggle and fail" strategy.
You must be a big fan of "The hearts and Minds" strategy.

Whott do you expect? They couldn't find a legitimate reason for invading Iraq.


They had completely legitimate reasons for invading Iraq...

There was never a peace treaty signed at the end of the Persian Gulf War...

It was a cease fire, somthing Saddam violated back in 1991 when he fired on planes enforcing the no fly zone.


That in addition to the countless UN resolutions Saddam violated.

I can prove this, I can back this up...

You are just going on lame rhetoric.



And wars aren't won instantly....I don't know where you guys got this from...

I never thought it was going to be won quickly....it's not going to be over in my lifetime.



The Islamicists are banking on winning this war the same way the Vietnam was was won...but creating unpopular opposition to the war at home....


I personally am against stifling the liberal voice, it's what keeps us a moderate country, but being too far to the right, or too far to the left, just as a general belief system, is just plain stupid....

Things change, situations change....


No why don't you go burn your draft card in protest or something hip cool and nostalgic like that....

Oh wait, you don't have one...................................

[Extra Stout]

Misconception. A majority of moderate Muslims can live peacefully with Israel, in fact, most do.
That does not demonstrate a misconception. You, for example, would like to see the current Administration destroyed (i.e., dismantled); however, you have lived peacefully with it, so far as we know.

Where are these pro-existence-of-Israel Muslims you folks say you know?

[clambake]

I love when you guys bitch and preach about how the UN is useless, then pretend to be outraged when a resolution is violated. Talk about flip-flop.

Tell me more about the reasons for invading Iraq? I know you'd love to convince everyone to follow your sheperd.

[whottt]

I love when you guys bitch and preach about how the UN is useless, then pretend to be outraged when a resolution is violated. Talk about flip-flop.

The UN is useless because THEY don't get outraged when their resolutions are violated.

What are good are resolutions if you lack the willingness to enforce them?



What good is the UN if it refuses to matter?


And the only UN Resolutions that do get enforeced are the ones America enforces...

You must be missing a chromosome or something....because it's clear as day what the problem with the UN is.






Tell me more about the reasons for invading Iraq? I know you'd love to convince everyone to follow your sheperd.


Why was Iraq chosen?

1.It had been weakened by sanctions and war.
2.We had legitimacy to do so due to violations of cease fire agreements and UN resolutions.
3.Saddam wasn't popular with the other powerful mideast leaders....
Saudi and Iran.
4.Whether you believe he had WMD or not....there can be no disagreement that he had the desire to aquire them and had done so in the past.

Iraq was attacked because it was the one that could be attacked with the least opposition...politically, internally, and legally.

Like I said earlier...

I am just glad you were never the leader of a people...your people would be dead or slaves.


Which country would you have suggested we attack first?

Saudi?

Yeah that would have gone over real well with the Muslim World(and that's just one thing)...

But if all we were after was Oil...that would have been the country we went after first, our military was already there....and they have more Oil than Iraq does.

[whottt]

Now I await a lame oil for war rant being ignorant of the fact that...Iraq will join OPEC and what that means, as well as the fact that subsidized Iraqi Oil was abundant under the OFF program. Now it's not...

[Extra Stout]

Link?


The most recent Pew Global Attitudes Survey showed that 75% of Lebanese Muslims believe that the state of Israel must be destroyed in order to bring justice to the Palestinian people.

That survey also showed that Lebanese Muslims are among the most moderate in the Middle East.

The average Muslim wants to see the state of Israel dismantled. I'm sorry if that is an unpleasant truth.

[clambake]

Wow, being told your missing a chromosome by someone who has been instructed to have their head examined must mean I'm really stupid.

Your right, Iran didn't like saddam. Iran would love to spearhead their influence in Iraq. If i'm Iran I'm thinking "wow, that wasn't hard, all it took was one dipshit from texas".

[E20]

I'm gonna stray off the topic, since everybody else has been. LOL

I'm just wanna say whatever happend to Al-Qaeda? They've been really quiet and haven't seen any news from them.

[DarkReign]

I'm gonna stray off the topic, since everybody else has been. LOL

I'm just wanna say whatever happend to Al-Qaeda? They've been really quiet and haven't seen any news from them.

Kidney failure will do that.

[whottt]

Wow, being told your missing a chromosome by someone who has been instructed to have their head examined must mean I'm really stupid.

Sucks to be you doesn't it?

Just not fair that I have excuse and obviously no need of one....while you do, and don't.


Your right, Iran didn't like saddam. Iran would love to spearhead their influence in Iraq.
Well that and the fact that they had a long war with him....

No one liked Saddam except for...aha, France Germany and Russia, the three countries who benfitted extensively from the OFF program...and had lucrative development rights in place with him for when the sanctions were lifted.



Oh, and Syria of course.







If i'm Iran I'm thinking "wow, that wasn't hard, all it took was one dipshit from texas".


Beats your solutions...which seem to be, take it up the ass.


Don't be so hostile about it....you are an embrassment to the legacy of your country...but we still love you. Some were born to follow and cower...others were born to lead, fight and make a difference.



If you tell me what your plan is I will be happy to tell you why it is stupid and inaccurate...unfortunately you don't seem to have one....

Just a bunch of lame, unprovable and histocially inaccurate sensationalistic media cathphrases and arguments...Arguing with you is like arguing with a newsblurb.


See what makes you an idiot...is that I told you why Iraq was attacked first, and why doing so was the logical choice if the longterm goal was to rid the mid-east of all the despots(as it is is) you didn't disprove anything, you just made some stupid smartass remarks...

[clambake]

That bump to the head impaired your judgement. Be prepared to have your decisions made by others. It has worked for them so far. Just wait a few years to hear the truth about current events.

[DarkReign]

Whott, no one can debate you, what with all the "idiot", "shithead" and other intelligent meanderings your thoughts espouse.

You may be right about certain things, and I would hope one day politicians could be so honest, but the delivery is schewed. Which schews everything else.

But, Hey! Youre 12k posts in, you knew that already.

[whottt]

I have civil debates all the time...just depends on the person I am arguing with and how stupid they are or how stupid they point they are making is....

Exactly what points has clambake made that deserve a civil response?

Scratch that....what points has clambake made?


None...which is why he gets talked too like he is a tool.

You OTOH, were quite civil and made a clear and valid point...

And I feel I have given you a civil and honest response.

Were you insulted?

Was I insulting to Nbadan even?


Sometimes I admit to being a little heated in my opinions, and I can make a comment directed at no one person and find some people feeling personally attatcked...that will get a nasty response from me because if I didn't make a personal attack(IE clearly directed at an individual) then people shouldn't take it personally...and if they do I am going to be a dick about it because they're being stupid.

[smeagol]

whottt, nice to see you are back in the political forum in full force :tu

[Hook Dem]

Wow, being told your missing a chromosome by someone who has been instructed to have their head examined must mean I'm really stupid.

Your right, Iran didn't like saddam. Iran would love to spearhead their influence in Iraq. If i'm Iran I'm thinking "wow, that wasn't hard, all it took was one dipshit from texas".
Wow! You didn't vote for dipshit? Guess you voted for crooknose then huh? :lol

[whottt]

Thanks smeagol :tu

[clambake]

How do you have a discussion with a head thats buried in the sand?

You've made your position clear. Your loyalty to the president is void of any personnal thought. Anyone that disagrees with you is " That's why you will never be a leader" or some shit. Must have blown whats left of your mind when Colin Powell admitted they were wrong. (I'm sure you have invented some kind of out clause excuse for that one.)

I guess bush is a war hero, too. Your upset that you weren't allowed in Iraq, and your very proud of some test score that determines whether or not your dumb enough to die over a cause that adds up to nothing more than a fabrication. Probably more upset that you can't lead other men and women to their death over the same BS cause.

I don't want to beat on a guy whose beliefs might be a by-product of some skull drop he took at 16. I'll just leave you with this. "Mission Accomplished" and "Bring it on."

[MannyIsGod]

whottt, nice to see you are back in the political forum in full force :tuI agree with that. I don't usually agree with Whottt, but I feel he at least thinks for himself unlike other people around here.

[whottt]

How do you have a discussion with a head thats buried in the sand?

I don't know...how do you do it? Talk to yourself?



You've made your position clear. Your loyalty to the president is void of any personnal thought. Anyone that disagrees with you is " That's why you will never be a leader" or some shit.



I don't like Bush's lack of an environmental policy, I don't like his stance on abortion and I don't like his stance on stem cell research...

What I do like, at least more than anything being offered up by the left, is his foreign policy and ideas on what it will take to FIX the mid-east...

And you aren't going to to it by leaving a bunch of dickhead dictators in power...

Period.

And their problem is now our problem.

And in a region where nearly every country(except the one everyone calls the problem)...has a mass emmigration problem, and lack of representative government, it's obvious that maintaining the status quo is not the solution.


Is Israel attacking Syria? How come Syria is a shithole with mass emmigration issues?

Saudi Arabia has a hundred billion dollar economy...how come they have mass emmigration issues?

Because they got shitty backwards ass governments that don't care for their people....and these forgotten human waste are the backbone of the terrorist army.



Must have blown whats left of your mind when Colin Powell admitted they were wrong. (I'm sure you have invented some kind of out clause excuse for that one.)

Eh...Colin Powell isn't the right man for this job and this plan...

Incidentally, he was one of the ones that wasn't in favor of removing Saddam from power in the Persian Gulf War...In fact he was the chief advocate of not doing so...now I agree that since we agreed we would not take Saddam out of power in the forming of the coalition, that we could not go back on our word...

But how'd Colin's vision turn out?

How'd leaving Saddam in power turn out?




I guess bush is a war hero, too.


See you fucking tool?

I give you facts, and you give me stupidity...


You have yet to make a factually provable statement, you just go around spewing ignorance like it's something special...

Putting words in my mouth...

You're an idiot.



and your very proud of some test score that determines whether or not your dumb enough to die over a cause that adds up to nothing more than a fabrication. Probably more upset that you can't lead other men and women to their death over the same BS cause.

What's the fabrication?

That Saddam was believed to have WMD?

Your intellectual capacity and unwillingness to actually learn if anything you say is true makes you the fucking sheep...

And anytime you want to argue historical facts with me...feel free to do so.




I don't want to beat on a guy whose beliefs might be a by-product of some skull drop he took at 16. I'll just leave you with this. "Mission Accomplished" and "Bring it on."

And I'll just leave you with this...

You're a fucking sheep...a stupid fucking sheep who hasn't uttered one accurate or provable statement with regards to the mideast in this entire debate..

You arguments are cliched, trite and in accurate and the intelligence you argue with is extremely common and not elightened or insightful in any way shape or form.

Common...and stupid. And you speak and argue from a position of ignorance...provable ignorance.

You're just a fucking pathetic sheep who listens to what people say instead of attempting to find out the truth for himself.

IOW, you're a dumbass...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

How do you have a discussion with a head thats buried in the sand?

Well, if it really were (which it's not best I can tell), it's better than say someone like you who has theirs so far up NBADan's every time you spit it comes out his mouth.

[clambake]

Not suprised on how you would turn on Colin Powell (predicted that earlier).

There is no man for this job, except the one attached to the voice in your head.

I have a small son (thats why I worry about a leader with a samller IQ than... my son).

I won't use the "f" word to describe you or your thoughts, but I will use YOUR thoughts.

I'm fascinated by a person that performs a self-examination and their conclusion leads them to an analogy comparison with that of Charles Whitman. I believe you should be given as much space to vent as we can possibly provide.

I think the people of your ilk are a dying breed, an endangered spieces. I will do my best to record your thoughts, so please continue and try to be honest and accurate with your feelings.

It's for posterity.

[whottt]

Not suprised on how you would turn on Colin Powell (predicted that earlier).

Yawn...I stated the truth about his stance during the Persian Gulf War.


There is no man for this job, except the one attached to the voice in your head.

Your opinion...stilll waiting for something resembling a fact from you.



I have a small son (thats why I worry about a leader with a samller IQ than... my son).

Oh I wouldn't worry about that if I were you. I'd be worried about your IQ if I were you.


I won't use the "f" word to describe you or your thoughts, but I will use YOUR thoughts.

Oh so the fact that you don't say fuck some how changes the fact that you have attacked a possible medical disability 5 posts in a row?

Oh yeah...you got your priorities in the right place.

You fucking douchebag.


I'm fascinated by a person that performs a self-examination and their conclusion leads them to an analogy comparison with that of Charles Whitman. I believe you should be given as much space to vent as we can possibly provide.

I'm glad you are fascinated by me. Unfortunately I don't feel similarly about you...what I feel is a the usual tediousness that I always get during the process of helping someone realize they are an idiot...

Yes it's tedious, and it's boring, but it's my own small way of making the world a better place. And I do it quite well. You'll thank me one day.


I think the people of your ilk are a dying breed, an endangered spieces. I will do my best to record your thoughts, so please continue and try to be honest and accurate with your feelings.

It's for posterity.


And I think you'd do yourself a great service if you actually checked out the validity of your ignorant and uninformed misguided historical knowledge before forming your stupid opinions.

But that's just my opinion of course...this is a free country and you can continue celebrating your right to stupidity to the fullest. That is what makes America great after all.

[clambake]

Possible? The diagnosis is becoming a bit more focused.

Tell me more about Bush's future legacy so we can lay it next to what will be an autospy of his blunders as president, then we can compare your medical condition brainstorming to the truth.

Remember, try to be accurate and honest with your feelings.

It's for posterity!

[smeagol]

I agree with that. I don't usually agree with Whottt, but I feel he at least thinks for himself unlike other people around here.

Yeah, I don’t agree with much of what he posts in the political forum (I do agree with his b-ball views, though), but he backs up what he says with facts and you can tell there is thought behind what he writes.

[DarkReign]

I have civil debates all the time...just depends on the person I am arguing with and how stupid they are or how stupid they point they are making is....

Exactly what points has clambake made that deserve a civil response?

Scratch that....what points has clambake made?


None...which is why he gets talked too like he is a tool.

You OTOH, were quite civil and made a clear and valid point...

And I feel I have given you a civil and honest response.

Were you insulted?

Was I insulting to Nbadan even?

I wasnt even slightly insulted. No, I dont believe you insulted Dan in anyway either.


Sometimes I admit to being a little heated in my opinions, and I can make a comment directed at no one person and find some people feeling personally attatcked...that will get a nasty response from me because if I didn't make a personal attack(IE clearly directed at an individual) then people shouldn't take it personally...and if they do I am going to be a dick about it because they're being stupid.

:lmao

Well said.

[whottt]

Possible? The diagnosis is becoming a bit more focused.

Tell me more about Bush's future legacy so we can lay it next to what will be an autospy of his blunders as president, then we can compare your medical condition brainstorming to the truth.

Hmmm...who the fuck knows and who the fuck cares about his political legacy?

The problem is the middle east...and that's why he was re-elected...

But fixing the middle east isn't going to be finished until long after Bush is gone from office...

And if you think it could have been fixed in one or two presidential terms...You are truly an idiot.

The middle east situation was centuries in the making, it's a region of the world that governementally and culturally lags 2 to 300 years behind the rest of the world...In terms of the types of governments, civil rights etc...

Now that's not a problem if you are talking about some tribe in the Amazon that no one gives a fuck about and who just want to go hunt.

But when you are talking about one of the richest regions in the world and them marrying modern technology to a pre-enlightenment culture with fascist intentions an apocalyptic world view and the willingness to act on it...

That's a fucking problem and prentending it wasn't and maintaining the status quo was not going to fix it...it was going to make it worse. It WAS getting worse and it had been for decades.

....it's not going to be fixed in 3 years.

Legacies are fucking useless to anyone other than the person they belong too...

The results are what matter.

And the middle east is such a complete and utter humanitarian and civil rights shithole and has been for just about all of the 20th century....it's got nowhere to go but up.

Legacy this leagacy that...

You want to know legacy?

John Quincy Adams is one of the least popular presidents in American history.

He was the son of a President...he was elected without winning the popular vote and he was extremely unpopular and hardly ever mentioned as being a great president or politician...


But what he also is...
Is guy that vetoed a proposed law that would have made even the discussion of freeing the slaves illegal.

So you tell me what his legacy is...


Then tell me if it matters to anyone other than the Adams Family(sic).



Remember, try to be accurate and honest with your feelings.

It's for posterity!


I have been...you're an idiot, your lack of knowledge is apparent to someone that has it, and there are two people that know you pull your opinions entitrely out of your ass and get them from newsblurbs without ever actually looking into the truth for yourself...you, and me.

[jochhejaam]

then we can compare your medical condition brainstorming to the truth.


You do realize that debasing someones medical condition to enhance your point of view does nothing to substantiate your arguement and serves only to reflect poorly on you?

[clambake]

Of course I realize that Joch. I have more at stake here than most of you,IMO. I don't want my son to be stuck in some desert because of the actions of a maniac president. At some point the rest of the world is going to decide it's time the US paid for it's criminal agreesion.

As far as Whott is concerned? He has no etiquette, self control, or character. The fact they wouldn't allow him to sign up is, yet again, another mistake by the current administration. He is PERFECT for this mission.

[whottt]

Of course I realize that Joch. I have more at stake here than most of you,IMO. I don't want my son to be stuck in some desert because of the actions of a maniac president.


Like I said...

You're an idiot. There is no way your son is going to be stuck in some desert unless he chooses to do so.

Get your fucking head out of the vietnam war. This isn't Viet Nam.


At some point the rest of the world is going to decide it's time the US paid for it's criminal agreesion.


By who? The UN, itself under investigation and proven to have commited fraud and theft using UN sanctions as the tool?

Saddam signed the cease fire with is....when he violated it the two parties concerned were us and him. And when he violated it he fired on US. Hence...no more cease fire if we choose.

No illegality to it...

You should not listen to these idiots that say things like that.


As far as Whott is concerned? He has no etiquette, self control, or character.

LMAO...I have plenty of self control and etiquette, those aren't real strong requirments on this board...if they were I'd be banned, and I damn sure wouldn't be a mod...(and you'd be banned for as long as I could get away with it, I do admit to being tempted though).

Sorry this board isn't what you think it should be...it seems to be that it's you that has the problem conforming to etiquette.





The fact they wouldn't allow him to sign up is, yet again, another mistake by the current administration. He is PERFECT for this mission.

IT's not that they wouldn't allow me to sign up, I needed special clearance...the fact that I could not obtain that is not becuase I had a head injury, it's because the surgeon who operated on me is dead.

RIF and RIP.

See you can't keep facts straight...you twist them into something else...hence your fucked up and wrong view.



There is no draft. Fact.
We had legal recourse to go into Iraq. Fact.
The fact that I am not in the military is not because of a proven disability, it's because the person who can give me the required medical clearance is dead. Fact.

Now look at what I said...

And look at what you are saying, look at the content of your posts, look at mine(even with insults)...and see if you can figure out why you are a douche bag.

[clambake]

Damn Joch!

Okay, Whott, how are we going to succeed with your "evolution" if you continue to throw pooh at everyone that walks past your cage?

Now, you are basically saying " Let's cut and run so you f*cking douche heads will get what you want". That's masterful!

Your post's on sports are insightful.

Your post's on politics are dangerous and demented. Don't wait for medical cleareance, just grow a beard and go. I'll help you pack (from a distance).

[jochhejaam]

Damn Joch!

What cb?
You think I dragged a confession out of you that belittling whottt's medical problem was a mistake and then he turned around and insulted you anyway? It wasn't a setup, honest. :lol

You're a good man for admitting a mistake cb. <seriously>


Edit: And btw cb, I have 2 sons that are of draft age, 20 and 22, so I understand how you feel.

[Obstructed_View]

I have more at stake here than most of you,IMO. I don't want my son to be stuck in some desert because of the actions of a maniac president. At some point the rest of the world is going to decide it's time the US paid for it's criminal agreesion.

As far as Whott is concerned? He has no etiquette, self control, or character. The fact they wouldn't allow him to sign up is, yet again, another mistake by the current administration. He is PERFECT for this mission.
So I guess I have more at stake than you do, since I have two sons.

You might want to do some of the math before you start rooting for immediate US failure due to your misplaced hatred for the commander in chief. Given your statements, I have little faith in your ability to critically examine your beliefs long enough to do some research and develop some opinions that are actually yours. For the good of your child it might be a good idea to get your news from someone other than John Stewart and Bill Maher.

If you look at the history of Israel and only concern yourself with the territory of southern Lebanon you will see the genesis or development of the PLO and Hezbollah, and by extension Islamic Jihad and Hamas. Most of these groups are committed to the destruction of the state of Israel and the killing of as many people in that country as possible. The citizens of Lebanon lack the foresight to see the danger of fundamentalist Islam and are happy to thumb their noses at Israel and the west, while completely failing to secure their own borders or even take control of their own political future. Every time the world community brow beats Israel into pulling back, those groups call it a victory and become more emboldened, as they do by the tacit approval of the world community that seems to hold them to no standard of behavior whatsoever. This can only end in the destruction of Israel. It looks like Israel is finally figuring that out. If forced to withdraw yet again, Israel will be facing the same enemies again, but those enemies will be backed by countries with nuclear weapons, and your son will be that much closer to being old enough to serve.

The killing, of course, won't stop even with every Jew on the planet dead. Once the Jews are gone, the Christians are next, as is turning Islam upon itself as it does so successfully in places like Taliban-controlled Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia, where the gangs of mutawaeen roam the streets beating citizens for such egregious offenses as not heading to prayer fast enough or a woman riding by herself in a taxi.

And make no mistake, the "rest of the world" lacks the political will to take on such "criminal agressors" as those in Darfur, Congo and Afghanistan without the lead of the US. The only reason those countries have breath in their bodies to criticise the US and Israel is because they'd rather take on the dog they know won't turn and bite them.

Repeating things other people say may make you feel smart, but it doesn't make you look or sound smart.

[clambake]

I haven't disagreed with the actions of Israel. Way to pay attention,OV.

Our president's actions are simply the last refuge of the incompetent. The truth about Iraq will rise to the top. This is the truth that men would prefer not to hear. At that time, I expect your presence will be limited.

[whottt]

I haven't disagreed with the actions of Israel. Way to pay attention,OV.

Our president's actions are simply the last refuge of the incompetent. The truth about Iraq will rise to the top. This is the truth that men would prefer not to hear. At that time, I expect your presence will be limited.


What truth?

Say it........

[Guru of Nothing]

There is no way your son is going to be stuck in some desert unless he chooses to do so.

You make it sound like serving is a bad decision.

[whottt]

You make it sound like serving is a bad decision.


Nice Try

[Nbadan]

If you look at the history of Israel and only concern yourself with the territory of southern Lebanon you will see the genesis or development of the PLO and Hezbollah, and by extension Islamic Jihad and Hamas. Most of these groups are committed to the destruction of the state of Israel and the killing of as many people in that country as possible. The citizens of Lebanon lack the foresight to see the danger of fundamentalist Islam and are happy to thumb their noses at Israel and the west, while completely failing to secure their own borders or even take control of their own political future. Every time the world community brow beats Israel into pulling back, those groups call it a victory and become more emboldened, as they do by the tacit approval of the world community that seems to hold them to no standard of behavior whatsoever. This can only end in the destruction of Israel. It looks like Israel is finally figuring that out. If forced to withdraw yet again, Israel will be facing the same enemies again, but those enemies will be backed by countries with nuclear weapons, and your son will be that much closer to being old enough to serve.

Hezbollah doesn't run Lebanon. In fact, they are not even a powerful minority party. They are like the libertarians in the U.S., except they have a militia. Lebanon was a secular democracy, still is, not a fundamentalist Islamic republic like they are building in Afghanistan and Iraq. Extremism only breeds more extremism.

[Nbadan]

If forced to withdraw yet again, Israel will be facing the same enemies again, but those enemies will be backed by countries with nuclear weapons, and your son will be that much closer to being old enough to serve.

Blah, last I checked, Israel had about ~300 nuclear weapons. Also, Jerusalem is as holy to Islam as it is to Judism and Christianity.

[Nbadan]

There is no draft. Fact

It's also a fact that some troops have already been to Iraq for two and three tours and the US reserve system, the backbone to the modern army, is dysfunctional if not altogether broken. Whott may not think keeping troops longer than their required active duty tour isn't a draft, but I bet the family's who have to wait another 90 days, or another year, or till 2034 for their loved ones to finally come home don't agree.

[whottt]

I repeat....

There is no draft. Fact.

Interpret all you want...

But there is no draft. Fact.

[Nbadan]

I repeat....

There is no draft. Fact.

Interpret all you want...

But there is no draft. Fact.

Would you like to qualify that with a 'yet'?

[BIG IRISH]

No, what I'm tired is the lack of substance. The same sarcastic bullshit responses you always get around here and the way every thread degrades into the same old bitch fest as the previous one. No one ever stays on topic.

If you have something of substance to point out showing Hezbollah being hurt in a meaningful way by these attacks, then bring it.

If not just STFU.

Most people don't want to debate you Manny because you are uncouth,
avitar-giving the fingers, telling people to STFU, (Even Mouse)!

Hezbollah getting hurt well here goes.

Israeli commandos flew in by helicopter before dawn into the northern town of Baalbek, on the border with Syria, capturing five Hezbollah guerrillas and killing at least 10, said Israel's army chief, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz.

Witnesses said Israeli forces partially destroyed the Dar al-Hikma hospital in Baalbek, where chief Hezbollah spokesman Hussein Rahal said fierce fighting raged for more than one hour.

Israel has not yet released the identity of those captured. When asked by The Associated Press whether any were "big fish," Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said: "They are tasty fishes."

Now Manny since you have a llimited knowledge of History, oops excuse me SIR, make that a slanted view of history, you will not know that the town of Baalbek has been OFF LIMITS to attacks from anyone since WWI. DO YOU KNOW WHY.

[whottt]

There's still time for you to get out before they bring it back though...

Renounce that citizenship, quick!

[Nbadan]

There's still time for you to get out before they bring it back though...

Renounce that citizenship, quick!

I won't be drafted and I have no kids of draft age.

[whottt]

Fuck

[BIG IRISH]

MannyIsGod

Sure, let me know when the next time a major terrorist organization was beaten into submission. Or the last time for that matter

This was from another one of your whatevers that tend to prove you have
already made up your mind about everything in Life and you no longer have
the ability to funking think for yourself.


Answer NAZIS

[clambake]

The world was united against the nazis. try again.

[boutons_]

The Nazrs were not state-less terrorists.

They were an essential, uniformed arm of a country fighting a conventional war vs. other countries.

[cheguevara]

:lol the nazrs



This israeli dude I know was recalled to Israel army. And he was the 2nd of 3 groups of reserves. Israel preparing for the big one? hell yeah

[boutons_]

I think Israelis are going to scorch the earth from the Israeli border to the Litani, if not all the way to S. Lebanon, then invite a peace-keeping force to occupy that land.

[BIG IRISH]

The world was united against the nazis. try again.

The world? :lol Ever hear of Japan!
What is the value of a $?
It is based on the YEN.

Hell a lot of American's even one of it's HEROS were nazi lovers and
some didn't even change after Pearl Harbor. :madrun

case in point
In 1935, the Charles Lindberghs moved to England, to escape the taunts and hassling of the press, people, and paparazzi due to the execution of Hauptmann and their son’s kidnapping and murder. It was at this time when Nazi /Germany was beginning it’s quest of domination over it’s neighboring countries.

While in Europe, Lindbergh toured Nazi Lufwaffe plants and training facilities, saying that they were superior to all others. He also accepted a German Medal of Honor. When the US began to think of entering the war, Lindbergh publicly opposed it. He said there was no need for America to get involved.

When Pearl Harbor was bombed, he swiftly asked to rejoin the Air Reserve. But due to his reputation of “Nazi loving,” President Roosevelt wouldn’t allow it. Instead, Lindbergh served as a civilian employee in the pacific war zone.
:madrun
Clambake Get off the beach or at leaast read a good book while your getting
your brain fried by the hot Texas Sun :lol

[BIG IRISH]

The Nazrs were not state-less terrorists.

They were an essential, uniformed arm of a country fighting a conventional war vs. other countries.


Psssssssssss
When the Nazis started out they weren't more than a bunch of thugs, with
a leader who had bigger plans. They became a political Party and their
leader became chancller of Germany.-any similarity to Hezbollah?

Don't say any thing about my spelling and I won't comment on yours,
after all I'm just a Irish Troll :drunk

[BIG IRISH]

Since this thread is dead dying comments Manny, anyone

I'm so sorry but the hate for the Jews will always be with us and Hezbollah
will always be around, just by another name.




posted 03-28-2001 12:35 AM by ME Staff Use Only:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NAZI CHRISTMAS
by David Shapiro

True story.
1983.
I'm nineteen.
Opposites attract.
Me: Brown eyes; brown hair.
Her: Blue eyes; blue hair.
Me: Native New Yorker.
Her: Raised on a farm.
Met in Magic-Realist Lit class.
State University.
Dating only weeks.
She said "Come to family Christmas."
Instinct said no.
We left in the morning.


I am Jewish by birth.
Raised secular.
Not big on holidays.
Never been to family Christmas.
Beautiful drive.
I am the passenger.
Imagining bucolic.
Imagining Wonderful Life.
WASP fantasy.
Christmas brainwash.
Warm by the fireplace.
Golden Retriever.
Tree.
Stockings.


Bring presents.
Pie for the hostess.
Bottle for the host.


Upstate corner of New York.
Family farm.
Uncle's house.
Low-rent.
Not wonderful life.
Redneck pickup truck.
Cinderblocks.
Homemade furniture.
No books.
Fake wood paneling.
Cross on the wall.
Don't be provincial, I think.
Give it a chance.


My girlfriend: First in family to get past high school.
Her mother: Sweet homemaker.
Her father: Minister.
Her aunt: American Legion cook.
Her sister: Three kids; no dad.
Her brothers and father and uncle: Out hunting.
I stand in kitchen with the women.
Awkward, but polite.
Food: Great equalizer.
Men return from hunt.


Uncle: Pumps gas.
Guns; camouflage; orange clothes.
Testosterone.
Looks like an old rocker.
Long gray hair.
Earrings.
Cracks jokes.
Nice smile.
Give gifts.
Polite conversation.
Thin veil.


Christmas dinner.
Sit between uncle and father.
Hold hands.
Grace.
Smell gas on uncles hand.
Awkward conversation.
Start to drink.
Venison; first time; delicious.


Tomorrow, I'm going hunting.
Never shot gun. "Easy," uncle says, "pull the trigger."
Me: Quaker school but obsessed with war.
G.I. Joe.
Prepared to go to 'Nam.
Uncle: "What's Quaker School?"
Try not to be political.
Uncle collects war memorabilia.
What kind?
"WW II. Mostly German."
Big collection downstairs.
"I'll show you after the meal."


Beautiful feast.
Understand a little.
Drink a lot.
Family; food; love.
Go to bathroom.
Investigate downstairs.
Insane.
Helmets; guns; grenades; daggers.
Medals; models; boots; gas masks.
Uniforms; dioramas; posters; flags.
Flags! Swastikas! Busts!
Hitler, Hitler, Hitler.

Back upstairs.
Upset.
Hold back anger.
"Impressive collection."
"Thanks."
"Germans misunderstood."
Another drink.
"Hitler not so bad."
"Oh, really."
"After lost war, he helped Germans."
Hitler?
I am drunk.
Losing it.


"Hitler was not so bad."
"He was evil."
"Propaganda. We know better now."
"And the Holocaust?"
"Exaggerated."
"Your collection is incomplete.
Missing skin lamps. Missing Jew soap."
Girlfriend: "I'm sorry, excuse him."
Don't excuse me.
I am drunk.
Girlfriend: "What's wrong with you?"
"He's a ****ing liar!"
Father (minister): "Your language offensive!"
"Your brother offensive!"
Uncle: "Jew Bastard! Won't be staying in my house!"
Start to fight.
Punches.
I'm nineteen.
He's maybe fifty.
A lot of punches.
Minister separates.
Daughter ashamed.
Minister: "Everyone calm down."


Daughter cries.
Feel bad.
But not that bad.
Take back present; drink it.
I'm trapped.
New Yorker; don't drive.
Call taxi. Say I'm sorry to girlfriend.
Reach out.
She stays seated with family.
Wait for taxi outside.
See breath.
Taxi.
Open door.
"Merry Christmas."
Stay in hotel.
Drink rest of present.
Trailways station hangover.
Bus ride.
Alone.
Then home

[Nbadan]

PARTY OF GOD AND REAGAN: A Hezbollah History Lesson you may not know...


http://www.gregpalast.com/wp-content/photos/reagan_antlers.jpg
Arms for Cash flashback


OK, class, answer this question — and let’s not see the same hands:


President George W. Bush says, “Syria has been a primary sponsor of Hezbollah and it has helped provide Hezbollah with shipments of Iranian made weapons… threaten the entire Middle East.”

This month marks the twenty-first anniversary of a shipment of 508 anti-tank missiles to Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini in support of Hezbollah. Who approved that shipment?

Need a hint? The shipments were approved by a group which calls itself, “The Party of God.”

That’s right, Republican President Ronald Reagan sent the Ayatollah the weapons (and a birthdayreagan antlers cake — no kidding) in return for loot to fund the illegal war against the elected government of Nicaragua. As part of the deal, Iran’s operatives in Hezbollah would release the two dozen hostages they’d taken, including a Presbyterian minister, a Catholic priest, a librarian and US reporter Terry Anderson. After the arms shipment, Hezbollah released three of the hostages and over time, executed several others. With Iran’s funding, the US supplied its own terrorist group, the “contras,” with weapons used in the killing of 30,000 Nicaraguans.

Greg Palast (http://www.gregpalast.com/party-of-god-and-reagan-a-hezbollah-history-lesson)

[smeagol]

Manny: In Argentina, Montoneros, FARC and ERP were beaten into submission.

[RandomGuy]

PARTY OF GOD AND REAGAN: A Hezbollah History Lesson you may not know...


http://www.gregpalast.com/wp-content/photos/reagan_antlers.jpg
Arms for Cash flashback


OK, class, answer this question — and let’s not see the same hands:



Greg Palast (http://www.gregpalast.com/party-of-god-and-reagan-a-hezbollah-history-lesson)

Good old Ronny Reagan's administration produced more convicted felons than Clinton's.

If Clinton's administration was corrupt, then Reagan's was more so.

[gtownspur]

Good old Ronny Reagan's administration produced more convicted felons than Clinton's.

If Clinton's administration was corrupt, then Reagan's was more so.


Wow, i didn't know that selling nuclear secrets to china for campaign contributions was on par with selling arms for hostages.

Reagan was clearly the worst of both evils here. :rolleyes

[Nbadan]

selling nuclear secrets to china for campaign contributions

:rolleyes

Where's your proof? Woo was convicted of spying and went to jail.

[BIG IRISH]

:rolleyes

Where's your proof? Woo was convicted of spying and went to jail.

COME ON DAN, Your smarter than that:

Richard Poe
Tuesday, May 27, 2003
China will likely replace the USA as world leader, said Bill Clinton in a recent Washington Post interview. It is just a matter of time. Clinton should know. He has personally done more to build China’s military strength than any man on earth.

Most Americans have heard of the so-called "Chinagate" scandal. Few understand its deadly import, however. Web sites such as "Chinagate for Dummies" and its companion "More Chinagate for Dummies" offer some assistance.

Unfortunately, with a combined total of nearly 8,000 words, these two sites – like so many others of the genre – offer more detail than most of us "dummies" can absorb.

For that reason, in the 600 words left in this column, I will try to craft my own "Idiot’s Guide to Chinagate," dedicated to all those busy folks like you and me whose attention span tends to peter out after about 750 words.

Here goes.

When Bill Clinton took office in 1993, China presented no threat to the United States. Chinese missiles "couldn’t hit the side of a barn," notes Timothy W. Maier of Insight magazine. Few could reach North America and those that made it would likely miss their targets.

Thanks to Bill Clinton, China can now hit any city in the USA, using state-of-the-art solid-fueled missiles with dead-accurate, computerized guidance systems and multiple warheads.

China probably has suitcase nukes as well. These enable China to strike by proxy – equipping nuclear-armed terrorists to do its dirty work while the Chinese play innocent. Some intelligence sources claim that China maintains secret stockpiles of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons on U.S. soil, for just such contingencies.

In 1997, Clinton allowed China to take over the Panama Canal. The Chinese company Hutchison Whampoa leased the ports of Cristobal and Balboa, on the east and west openings of the canal, respectively, thus controlling access both ways.

A public outcry stopped Clinton in 1998 from leasing California's Long Beach Naval Yard to the Chinese firm COSCO. Even so, China can now strike U.S. targets easily from its bases in Panama, Vancouver and the Bahamas.

How did the Chinese catch up so fast? Easy. We sold them all the technology they needed – or handed it over for free. Neither neglect nor carelessness is to blame. Bill Clinton did it on purpose.

As a globalist, Clinton promotes "multipolarity" – the doctrine that no country (such as the USA) should be allowed to gain decisive advantage over others.

To this end, Clinton appointed anti-nuclear activist Hazel O'Leary to head the Department of Energy. O'Leary set to work "leveling the playing field," as she put it, by giving away our nuclear secrets. She declassified 11 million pages of data on U.S. nuclear weapons and loosened up security at weapons labs.

Federal investigators later concluded that China made off with the "crown jewels" of our nuclear weapons research under Clinton’s open-door policy – probably including design specifications for suitcase nukes.

Meanwhile, Clinton and his corporate cronies raked in millions.

In his book "The China Threat," Washington Times correspondent Bill Gertz describes how the system worked.

Defense contractors eager to sell technology to China poured millions of dollars into Clinton's campaign. In return, Clinton called off the dogs. Janet Reno and other counterintelligence officials stood down while Lockheed Martin, Hughes Electronics, Loral Space & Communications and other U.S. companies helped China modernize its nuclear strike force.

"We like your president. We want to see him re-elected," former Chinese intelligence chief Gen. Ji Shengde told Chinagate bagman Johnny Chung.

Indeed, Chinese intelligence organized a massive covert operation aimed at tilting the 1996 election Clinton's way.

Clinton's top campaign contributors for 1992 were Chinese agents; his top donors in 1996 were U.S. defense contractors selling missile technology to China.

Clinton recieved funding directly from known or suspected Chinese intelligence agents, among them James and Mochtar Riady, who own the Indonesian Lippo Group; John Huang; Charlie Trie; Ted Sioeng; Maria Hsia; Wang Jun and others.

Commerce Secretary Ron Brown served as Clinton's front man in many Chinagate deals. When investigators began probing Brown's Lippo Group and Chinagate connections, Brown died suddenly in a suspicious April 1996 plane crash.

Needless to say, China does not share Clinton's enthusiasm for globalism or multipolarity. The Chinese look out for No. 1.

"War [with the United States] is inevitable; we cannot avoid it," said Chinese Defense Minister Gen. Chi Haotian in 2000. "The issue is that the Chinese armed forces must control the initiative in this war."

Bill Clinton has given them a dam good start. :blah :blah :blah

[BIG IRISH]

Good old Ronny Reagan's administration produced more convicted felons than Clinton's.

If Clinton's administration was corrupt, then Reagan's was more so.
Here's my strategy on the Cold War:
We win, they lose."

- Ronald Reagan


"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

- Ronald Reagan


"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

- Ronald Reagan


"Of the four wars in my lifetime none came about because the U.S. was too strong."

- Ronald Reagan


"I have wondered at times about what the Ten Commandment's would have looked like if Moses had run them through the U.S. Congress."

- Ronald Reagan


"The taxpayer: That's someone who works for the federal government but doesn't have to take the civil service examination."

- Ronald Reagan


"Government is like a baby: An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other."

- Ronald Reagan


"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."

- Ronald Reagan


"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program."

- Ronald Reagan


"I've laid down the law, though, to everyone from now on about anything that happens: no matter what time it is, wake me, even if it's in the middle of a Cabinet meeting."

- Ronald Reagan


"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first."

- Ronald Reagan


"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it."

- Ronald Reagan


"Politics is not a bad profession. If you succeed there are many rewards, if you disgrace yourself you can always write a book."
- Ronald Reagan


"No arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women.

- Ronald Reagan

Please read the Idiots guide to Chinagate above.

[BIG IRISH]

Back to the original thread:

With Israel on offense, fringe benefits accrue
By Marvin Leibstone/ Syndicated Columnist
Wednesday, August 9, 2006

Israel’s attacks in southern Lebanon are rooted in realism: Weaken Hezbollah so that it could no longer send rockets or troops against Israeli targets. Hezbollah’s attacks are steeped in fantasy: Nibble away at Israel, and Israel will crumble.



The former objective is possible, the latter impossible.

Also, there are fringe benefits to the Israeli attacks: Beirut is learning it had better clean house or it will pay an awful price again for allowing Hezbollah to stage attacks from southern Lebanon, and global resentment toward Iran and Syria (Hezbollah’s paymasters) has increased.

But there are no benefits for Hezbollah from its attacks into Israel. When the fighting in Lebanon ends, Israel will still be Israel, a nation intact. Hezbollah will be a battered fight club, which is the fate of Hamas and al-Qaeda even if another 9/11 occurs. The Islamic militants don’t get it - an unrestrained Israel could decimate all of Lebanon, Iran, Syria and the Palestinian territories in days, just as another 9/11 could be the tipping point for U.S.-led strikes causing the Middle East to look like Dresden during World War II.

Israel’s recent U.S.-supported attacks in Lebanon demonstrate that escalation of force against terrorism is quite possible.

If Hezbollah and Muslim suicide-bombers were to destroy the great Western centers of finance, politics, religion and culture, the United States and Europe would recover and be able to send jihadists back to the Stone Age.

It is Lebanon that has suffered the most, for which it’s to blame. Beirut decided it was better to allow Hezbollah to be a militia conducting strikes against Israel than to defang Hezbollah and risk the wrath of Iran and Syria.

If Israel stays on track, Hezbollah will lose its rocket-delivery capability, though Israel will accrue casualties. A cease-fire could then occur as global and Lebanese forces settle in for the long term. What ought to happen right away, however, is prevention of Iran and Syria from arming Hezbollah, for which the better persuaders are the United States and Europe.

Second, if Hezbollah refuses to give up terrorism and its militia, it should be driven out of Lebanon. Otherwise Hezbollah will conduct more raids against Israel, ending another cease-fire.

A choice must be made: Either Hezbollah cleans up its act or it leaves Lebanon. If the latter, then mistakes that had allowed Arafat to conduct intifadas after leaving Lebanon must not be repeated.

Thus the U.N. Security Council has to agree with Israel that neutering Hezbollah is essential to prosecuting the global War on Terror.

Marvin Leibstone is a Washington-based anti-terrorism expert.
Marvin Leibstone of the Boston Herald has hit the proverbial nail on the head concerning the current conflict in the Middle East. :blah :blah :blah

[BIG IRISH]

:rolleyes

Where's your proof? Woo was convicted of spying and went to jail.


Update yourself DAN :lol

After growing up in Taiwan, Wen Ho Lee moved to the United States in 1965 to continue studying engineering.

He became a U.S. citizen in 1974, and in 1978 he took a job as a scientist in weapons design at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico. Shortly after a news story that implied he had given military secrets to China, he was arrested and accused of being a spy.

Wen Ho Lee spent nine months in prison while the U.S. Department of Justice tried to prove a case against him. Eventually a plea bargain was reached and Lee was charged with one count of mishandling sensitive materials and released from prison.

In May of 2006 he settled an invasion of privacy lawsuit against the U.S. government for $1.65 million. Lee accused the government of violating privacy laws by leaking personal information to the press.

The settlement included $750,000 from five news organizations (The New York Times, ABC, The Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post and the Associated Press).
Extra credit: Lee's wife, Sylvia, was an "informational asset" to the F.B.I. from 1985 to 1991

[JoeChalupa]

If you bring a knife to a gunfight.....You going to die and likely not do any harm to the guy holding the gun. I don't care how determined you are. And if he's holding an uzi, it can be 100 guys with knives, they still going to die. And there is a finite amount...of terrorists.


Yes it is in the realm of possiblity for the guy with the knife to actually kill the guy with the gun and win the battle...




But only if the guy with the gun is an extreme, and I mean an extreme dumbass. If he is actually stupid, or he is extremely arrogant...it could happen.



But since you have to be pretty fucking stupid to take a knife to a gunfiught in the first place, it is extremely rare for this to happen...Especially since the guy holding th gun in this fight, is smart enough to build it, and the guys holding the knives are stupid enough to think they can win a gunfight with a knife.

America and Israel aren't that stupid yet....not enough ultraliberals yet.


Yeah, the days of mano a mano are long gone. Ultraconservatives have made it that way.

[whottt]

^^^ Weak

[jochhejaam]

FWIW, hezbollah agreed to the Cease Fire so long as Israel leaves Lebanon before the U.N. forces arrive to secure the border.



Hezbollah Leader Accepts U.N. Cease-Fire But Vows to Fight
Saturday, August 12, 2006

BEIRUT, Lebanon — Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah said Saturday that the Islamic militant group will abide by a U.N. cease-fire resolution but will continue fighting as long as Israeli troops remained in south Lebanon.

Nasrallah grudgingly accepted the cease-fire plan in a televised address as the Lebanese Cabinet was in session to vote on whether to agree to the U.N. resolution. Hezbollah has two ministers in the government.

"We will not be an obstacle to any (government) decision ... but our ministers will express reservations about articles that we consider unjust and unfair," he said.

The U.N. Security Council adopted a resolution seeking a "full cessation" of violence between Israel and Hezbollah on Friday, offering the region its best chance yet for peace after a month of fighting that has killed nearly 900 people and inflamed Mideast tensions.

The resolution, adopted unanimously, authorizes 15,000 U.N. peacekeepers to help Lebanese troops take control of south Lebanon as Israeli forces that have occupied the area withdraw.

The Shiite cleric said Hezbollah rocket strikes on northern Israel would end when Israel stopped airstrikes and other attacks on Lebanese civilians.

Some of the heaviest fighting of the war raged Saturday as Israel sent an avalanche of military power into Lebanon, dispatching thousands of troops and columns of armor into the rocky hills just north of its border.

Nasrallah called continued resistance to the Israel offensive "our natural right" and predicted more hard fighting to come.

"We must not make a mistake, not in the resistance, the government or the people, and believe that the war has ended. The war has not ended. There have been continued strikes and continued casualties," he said.

"Today nothing has changed and it appears tomorrow nothing will change," he said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,208065,00.html

[jochhejaam]

^^^Hezbulloh agreeing to the Cease Fire (not that they'll live up to it) is a realization on their part that continued warfare against Israel in Lebanon would result in a victory for Israel.
An uninterrupted battle to the end would snuff out all claims of victory by the hezzies.

[jochhejaam]

Surprise, the Cease Fire resolution now has a major problem, the Lebanese cabinet canceled a meeting to discuss their army aiding the disarming of the hezzies.
This serves the purpose of giving the Israeli's more time to accomplish their mission of ousting the terrorist hezzies from Lebanon.
The peacekeeping force wouldn't/won't have the incentive or resolve that Israel has in this battle against the hezbulites.