The "Hiding Among Civilians" Myth

[Nbadan]

The "hiding among civilians" myth

Israel claims it's justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn't trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.
By Mitch Prothero


Jul. 28, 2006 | The bombs came just as night fell, around 7 p.m. The locals knew that the 10-story apartment building had been the office, and possibly the residence, of Sheik Tawouk, the Hezbollah commander for the south, so they had moved their families out at the start of the war. The landlord had refused to rent to Hezbollah when they requested the top floors of the building. No matter, the locals said, the Hezb guys just moved in anyway in the name of the "resistance."

Everyone knew that the building would be hit eventually.

~snip~

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

~snip~

In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?

The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah's social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer.

~snip~

Salon (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/print.html)

Except for Salon, I don't think there is any doubt that Hezbollah hides among civilians and uses them as shields, it's not a myth but an unfortunate characterization of those who are militarily overpowered and fighting a guerilla war. This is exactly why wars of this nature have historically been hard to win, especially when the sympathetic locals being bombed by Israel see Hezbollah as the good guys.

[boutons_]

These Hezbollah "good guys" have armed themselves to the teeth, hidden their rockets in urban areas, constructed bunkers (hard to hide such construction?), and send their shrapnel-loaded rockets into Israeli civilian populations.

The Lebanese need to learn the lesson that if they let militants setup shop in S. Lebanon and they attack Israel, the militants are inviting the carnage visitied on Lebanon now. The Lebanese need to be unsympathetic to the Hezbollah and more sympathetic to their own country. Hard to do when occupied by Syria. But Syria is gone, and if Hezbollah is weakened and disarmed, it will be easier for Lebanon to run its own country.

I'm sure the Israelis were well aware, via their own spies and Lebanese collabos, how well armed the Hezbollah were. The Israelis wouldn't have responded so massively against only a couple of guys with a few rockets.

[Yonivore]

[B]The "hiding among civilians" myth

Israel claims it's justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn't trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.
By Mitch Prothero



Salon (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/print.html)

Except for Salon, I don't think there is any doubt that Hezbollah hides among civilians and uses them as shields, it's not a myth but an unfortunate characterization of those who are militarily overpowered and fighting a guerilla war. This is exactly why wars of this nature have historically been hard to win, especially when the sympathetic locals being bombed by Israel see Hezbollah as the good guys.
Okay, call me confused. You start your post calling it a myth and then append the bottom with a notation that acknowledges that everyone (except Salon) know Hezbollah uses Lebanese as human shields.

which is it Nbadan?

[ShackO]

These Hezbollah "good guys" have armed themselves to the teeth, hidden their rockets in urban areas, constructed bunkers (hard to hide such construction?), and send their shrapnel-loaded rockets into Israeli civilian populations.

The Lebanese need to learn the lesson that if they let militants setup shop in S. Lebanon and they attack Israel, (This assumes they could have done something about it... THe fact that they could not is a given) the militants are inviting the carnage visitied on Lebanon now. The Lebanese need to be unsympathetic to the Hezbollah and more sympathetic to their own country. Hard to do when occupied by Syria. But Syria is gone, and if Hezbollah is weakened and disarmed, it will be easier for Lebanon to run its own country. (After killing innocent solders and hundreds of civilians I guess they will really want to look out for the interests of those that kill their women and children)

I'm sure the Israelis were well aware, via their own spies and Lebanese collabos, how well armed the Hezbollah were. The Israelis wouldn't have responded so massively against only a couple of guys with a few rockets.


Who is saying that pissballah are good guys??? In the real world it is not about the “good buys vs the bad guys”…. Sooner ppl realize this they can begin to see how the world “really works”………

[Yonivore]

The Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 28 (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Human_Rights/geneva1.html)


"The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."

International Law Expert Yoram Dinstein (http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&vid=ISBN0521542278&refid=ca-print-cambridge&q=objective%2C+the+ultimate+responsibility+lies+wi th+the+belligerent&submit=Go)


"Should civilian casualties ensue from an attempt to shield combatants or a military objective, the ultimate responsibility lies with the belligerent placing innocent civilians at risk."
Provided for those, in this forum, that like to sqawk about Geneva Conventions and International Law.

I'd still like to know how MannyIsGod would have responded on July 12th if he were the Prime Minister of Israel.

Why isn't the international community screaming about Hezbollah massacring these people? According to International Law and the Geneva Conventions, they're responsible for the deaths.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

quoting salon as a newsource. :lmao

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

BTW, *busted*

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

[Nbadan]

Okay, call me confused. You start your post calling it a myth and then append the bottom with a notation that acknowledges that everyone (except Salon) know Hezbollah uses Lebanese as human shields.

which is it Nbadan?

That was the original title of the Salon article.

[Doc Jerome]

BTW, *busted*

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

Is this the proof? Where is a rocket being fired? I see a possible staging area for soldiers; unlike the same staging area US troops use in Iraq and Israeli troops use in Israel, where there is urban warfare. All battles won't take place in a pristene field. Any picture could be misinterpreted or at the very least misrepresented.

[ShackO]

The Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 28 (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Human_Rights/geneva1.html)



International Law Expert Yoram Dinstein (http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&vid=ISBN0521542278&refid=ca-print-cambridge&q=objective%2C+the+ultimate+responsibility+lies+wi th+the+belligerent&submit=Go)


Provided for those, in this forum, that like to sqawk about Geneva Conventions and International Law.

I'd still like to know how MannyIsGod would have responded on July 12th if he were the Prime Minister of Israel.

Why isn't the international community screaming about Hezbollah massacring these people? According to International Law and the Geneva Conventions, they're responsible for the deaths.


I guess it is a matter of degree and the numbers….. If you do a body count of the innocent ppl killed it is a bit shocking….

Again, if you value life, and the value of those Israeli’s are just as valuable as those Lebanese children then you can understand how others see it differently then most of the spoon feed sheep here in the USA……..

If you or I agree or not, the vast majority of the ppl and governments of the world believe that the brutal bombing of innocent civilians is wrong and way out of proportion…

Perhaps the Israeli PM has proven his manhood to the homeboys but he also brought about the Shia and Sunni @ least giving lip service to cooperation and reconciliation as well as elevating the status of pissbolah in the eyes of Arabs and many Muslims throughout the world…

Not sure that is going to help Israel………………

[boutons_]

"the brutal bombing of innocent civilians is wrong"

The Israelis weren't AIMING for civilians.

Hezbollah AIMS their shrapnel-filled rockets at civilians.

[ShackO]

"the brutal bombing of innocent civilians is wrong"

The Israelis weren't AIMING for civilians.

Hezbollah AIMS their shrapnel-filled rockets at civilians.

How do you know what they were aiming @???

Pissballah has crude weapons they have fired indiscriminately @ the city… Israel on the other hand has the best USA precision-guided munitions, complete control of the air and sea and yet has killed 10 times more civilians casualties then “the terrorist”… WTF???

[Obstructed_View]

How do you know what they were aiming @???

Pissballah has crude weapons they have fired indiscriminately @ the city… Israel on the other hand has the best USA precision-guided munitions, complete control of the air and sea and yet has killed 10 times more civilians casualties then “the terrorist”… WTF???


Israel has evacuated their cities and puts citizens in underground bomb shelters. Lebanese citizens, for whatever reason you choose to believe, are packed into a five story building at the highest point in town. It doesn't change the fact that Israel intends to kill only the muslims that have guns and rockets, and Hezbollah only intends to kill the Jews that have a pulse.

[MannyIsGod]

Has Isreal realeased the attack footage from the bombing of the building full of civilians? If there was a rocket laucher next to it, it seems the gun camera footage would show it. Why did they show every attack but that one? It is just weird.

[MannyIsGod]

Israel has evacuated their cities and puts citizens in underground bomb shelters. Lebanese citizens, for whatever reason you choose to believe, are packed into a five story building at the highest point in town. It doesn't change the fact that Israel intends to kill only the muslims that have guns and rockets, and Hezbollah only intends to kill the Jews that have a pulse.Which side has killed a larger ratio of civilians?

[ShackO]

Israel has evacuated their cities and puts citizens in underground bomb shelters. Lebanese citizens, for whatever reason you choose to believe, are packed into a five story building at the highest point in town. It doesn't change the fact that Israel intends to kill only the muslims that have guns and rockets, and Hezbollah only intends to kill the Jews that have a pulse.


Intentions??? As I asked "how do you know their intentions"???

I don't GAF about their intentions or yours...... I only need to see the fact of what they have done.......... Actions speak louder that words and "you will kow them by their actions and the deeds they perform".........

I guess you can sell that to the innocent children parents and UN ppl's family...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

"the brutal bombing of innocent civilians is wrong"

The Israelis weren't AIMING for civilians.

Hezbollah AIMS their shrapnel-filled rockets at civilians.

For once, I'm agreeing with boutons :spin

[ShackO]

Israel:angel has evacuated their cities and puts citizens in underground bomb shelters. Lebanese :devil citizens, for whatever reason you choose to believe, are packed into a five story building at the highest point in town. It doesn't change the fact that Israel :angel intends to kill only the muslims :devil that have guns and rockets, and Hezbollah only intends to kill the Jews :angel that have a pulse.

They say the path to hell is paved with “good intentions”….

I guess there might be some truth to that….. Certainly the road to sorrow and death appear to be……….

Perhaps with your simplistic cliché you can just dismiss the 750 Lebanese civilian deaths as bi-products of those “good intentions”…

[Yonivore]

Is this the proof? Where is a rocket being fired? I see a possible staging area for soldiers; unlike the same staging area US troops use in Iraq and Israeli troops use in Israel, where there is urban warfare. All battles won't take place in a pristene field. Any picture could be misinterpreted or at the very least misrepresented.
IAF footage of rockets being fired from a building similar to the one that collapsed in what is believed to be Qana. (http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/07/understanding_q.html)

Footage of rockets being fired from within Qana and Hezbollah using human shields. (http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/07/responding_to_t.html)

[Doc Jerome]

The footage shows rockets being firied from behind a building; and the distance of the launch from the building is definately in question from the the angle of the video. Not on the rooftop of the building or from within the building like many of you keep spouting.

They blew up the whole building killing all of those innocents based on that? Where is the Hezbollah bodies or any other evidence of Helbollah presence in the ruins of the building?

The link heading is misleading in that it states to have the proof of HEZBOLLAH USING human shields. There is no such evidence on either video.

If this is the so called proof you all are using to justify the deaths of innocents, . . . well, it's fucked up. I can't even speak on how fucked up it is. I just know that it is, and cold and inhumane.

Now go practice some real intillegint behavior and recognize that this is a struggle by poor people trying to establish a foothold in the say of their own socioeconomic and political destiny vs. a superpower bully and its cronies that does not want to relinquish its strangle hold nor any of its power to whom it considers insignificants.

[Yonivore]

The footage shows rockets being firied from behind a building; and the distance of the launch from the building is definately in question from the the angle of the video. Not on the rooftop of the building or from within the building like many of you keep spouting.

They blew up the whole building killing all of those innocents based on that? Where is the Hezbollah bodies or any other evidence of Helbollah presence in the ruins of the building?

The link heading is misleading in that it states to have the proof of HEZBOLLAH USING human shields. There is no such evidence on either video.

If this is the so called proof you all are using to justify the deaths of innocents, . . . well, it's fucked up. I can't even speak on how fucked up it is. I just know that it is, and cold and inhumane.

Now go practice some real intillegint behavior and recognize that this is a struggle by poor people trying to establish a foothold in the say of their own socioeconomic and political destiny vs. a superpower bully and its cronies that does not want to relinquish its strangle hold nor any of its power to whom it considers insignificants.
Well, they bombed the building based on the belief it was an ordnance depot for the launchers being used just outside. And, the secondary blast that occurred some time after the air raid, about the time the building collapsed, would tend to confirm that.

I think it is premature to even assume the air strike is what caused the building to collapse.

[ShackO]

The footage shows rockets being firied from behind a building; and the distance of the launch from the building is definately in question from the the angle of the video. Not on the rooftop of the building or from within the building like many of you keep spouting.

They blew up the whole building killing all of those innocents based on that? Where is the Hezbollah bodies or any other evidence of Helbollah presence in the ruins of the building?

The link heading is misleading in that it states to have the proof of HEZBOLLAH USING human shields. There is no such evidence on either video.

If this is the so called proof you all are using to justify the deaths of innocents, . . . well, it's fucked up. I can't even speak on how fucked up it is. I just know that it is, and cold and inhumane.

Now go practice some real intillegint behavior and recognize that this is a struggle by poor people trying to establish a foothold in the say of their own socioeconomic and political destiny vs. a superpower bully and its cronies that does not want to relinquish its strangle hold nor any of its power to whom it considers insignificants.

Well said…. You notice with each and every death they look for justification and excuses to blame the victims……

The Lebanese government is calling for outside investigations and Israel is reviewing the situation and as of yet I have not seen any proof one way or the other…..

Not that it matters, as IMO some fool behind the building with a missile does not justify the 52 dead no more then it does the other 700 innocent civilians killed thus far by Israel... Or the fifty killed by pissbolah

[Yonivore]

Well said…. You notice with each and every death they look for justification and excuses to blame the victims……
Who's blaming the victims? I blame Hezbollah.


The Lebanese government is calling for outside investigations and Israel is reviewing the situation and as of yet I have not seen any proof one way or the other…..

Not that it matters, as IMO some fool behind the building with a missile does not justify the 52 dead no more then it does the other 700 innocent civilians killed thus far by Israel... Or the fifty killed by pissbolah
So, they should just be allowed to launch rockets into Israel with impugnity because they've not the decency to wage war away from civilians? Got it.

[Doc Jerome]

Well, they bombed the building based on the belief it was an ordnance depot for the launchers being used just outside. And, the secondary blast that occurred some time after the air raid, about the time the building collapsed, would tend to confirm that.

I think it is premature to even assume the air strike is what caused the building to collapse.

WTF. There was no secondary explosion. Where did you get that? Not once did I hear or read this 'til now. Come on now????

Lets get it right, babe. :fro

[Yonivore]

WTF. There was no secondary explosion. Where did you get that? Not once did I hear or read this 'til now. Come on now????

Lets get it right, babe. :fro
Maybe you should read sources other than those that have already convicted Israel of a massacre.
From Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744332.html)

The Israel Defense Forces convened a press conference Sunday evening, admitting that while the IAF did indeed strike the building in which the civilians were killed, the attack itself occurred near midnight, while reports of an explosion and the structure's collapse were only received at around 8:30 A.M.

The air force did resume bombing Qana at 7:30 A.M., however the strikes were carried out on targets at a distance of 460 meters from the building.

"The question we don't have an answer to is what happened between 12 midnight and 8 in the morning," said IAF Brigadier General Amir Eshel.

Lebanese villagers in Qana who were witness to the bombing, however, say that the building's collapse occurred in the wee hours of the night.

Witnesses at the scene corroborated the IDF claim that the strike on the building, which is located in the Hariva neighborhood of Qana, was carried out at 1:00 A.M. After the initial strike, some of the building's residents exited in an attempt to survey the damage, in effect saving themselves.

A few minutes later, IAF planes struck the building once again, causing the walls to collapse on the residents who did not vacate, killing them in the process.

Arab media began reporting on the incident after dawn Sunday, approximately seven hours after the strike. The reports did not note, however, that the building collapsed a short time prior to Arab journalists' arrival on the scene.
I think that leaves it open for debate.

[ShackO]

If there is a kidnapper or some other criminal with a human shield is it acceptable in the “civilized” western ethos to merely kill the hostage if it means killing the victimizer..

[Doc Jerome]

Education is the key to knowledge. It can help you to discern the difference between fact and fiction, and can also save you from becoming a victim of propaganda.

Now go forth and spread knowledge, not hate.

[Yonivore]

If there is a kidnapper or some other criminal with a human shield is it acceptable in the “civilized” western ethos to merely kill the hostage if it means killing the victimizer..
If the criminal is holding the firing mechanism of a Katyusha rocket aimed at a populated city, hell yes.

[ShackO]

Maybe you should read sources other than those that have already convicted Israel of a massacre.
From Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744332.html)

I think that leaves it open for debate.

Wow another unbiased site............ What a joke.......... :sleep

[Extra Stout]

If there is a kidnapper or some other criminal with a human shield is it acceptable in the “civilized” western ethos to merely kill the hostage if it means killing the victimizer..
Poor analogy. The only person the victimizer could kill (besides himself) in your scenario is the hostage, so there is no gain in killing the hostage just to kill the victimizer.

Think harder, maybe a case with multiple hostages, and perhaps you can emerge with a better analogy.

[Doc Jerome]

If the criminal is holding the firing mechanism of a Katyusha rocket aimed at a populated city, hell yes.

The US and Israel had better target Russia and China then. :fro

[Yonivore]

Wow another unbiased site............ What a joke.......... :sleep
Did you read the article? They don't make a judgement on when the building collapsed or what caused it. They state a couple of viewpoints, including those of witnesses.

Who are you getting your information from, Nasrallah? Hell, you're already condemning it as a war crime.

[Extra Stout]

Did you read the article? They don't make a judgement on when the building collapsed or what caused it. They state a couple of viewpoints, including those of witnesses.

Who are you getting your information from, Nasrallah? Hell, you're already condemning it as a war crime.
Yoni, Ha'aretz is published by those perfidious Jews. You can't trust them.

[Doc Jerome]

Poor analogy. The only person the victimizer could kill (besides himself) in your scenario is the hostage, so there is no gain in killing the hostage just to kill the victimizer.

Think harder, maybe a case with multiple hostages, and perhaps you can emerge with a better analogy.

Regardless of the situation, YOU would kill everyone. :fro

[Yonivore]

Regardless of the situation, YOU would kill everyone. :fro
If more lives were saved in the process? Yep.

[Extra Stout]

Regardless of the situation, YOU would kill everyone. :fro
If there were multiple hostages, the kidnapper had already killed at least one, and had promised to kill more on the hour, then yes, I would take the shot to kill him even if it risked the hostage if that's what it took to save multiple other lives.

Because in real life, sometimes there are no scenarios where all innocents can be spared.

[Doc Jerome]

There it is. :fro

[ShackO]

Did you read the article? They don't make a judgement on when the building collapsed or what caused it. They state a couple of viewpoints, including those of witnesses.

Who are you getting your information from, Nasrallah? Hell, you're already condemning it as a war crime.

lol.............. I have already stated my opinion. twice.... Just chill till they have something to go on......... Right now why speculate.......??

[ShackO]

Yoni, aljazeerah is published by those perfidious Arabs. You can't trust them. :spin

[Extra Stout]

:spin
Ha'aretz is the peacenik paper. The Jerusalem Post is the Israeli Al-Jazeera.

[ShackO]

When possible I prefer to have my information from sources that have no appearances of bias or stake in the issue……. IMO that paper would not be my choice as an authority on the issue…. As I have repeated numerous times already we should all reserve judgment on the building until we find out what happened, until then it is merely speculation……..

[RandomGuy]

Is this the proof? Where is a rocket being fired? I see a possible staging area for soldiers; unlike the same staging area US troops use in Iraq and Israeli troops use in Israel, where there is urban warfare. All battles won't take place in a pristene field. Any picture could be misinterpreted or at the very least misrepresented.

How do you misrepresent a bunch of guys in civies manning an anti-aircraft gun?

I think this is a rare instance where the libs and cons here are all in agreement on something:

Hezbullah deserves to get the snot pounded out of it.

[Extra Stout]

How do you misrepresent a bunch of guys in civies manning an anti-aircraft gun?

I think this is a rare instance where the libs and cons here are all in agreement on something:

Hezbullah deserves to get the snot pounded out of it.
Only Mel Gibson and Robert Fisk disagree.

[RandomGuy]

Only Mel Gibson and Robert Fisk disagree.

Mel Gibson is not exactly what I would call a rational person. If memory serves, he has said some, um, weird things on occassion. I think he and Tom Cruise share the same clubhouse. :lol

[RandomGuy]

When possible I prefer to have my information from sources that have no appearances of bias or stake in the issue……. IMO that paper would not be my choice as an authority on the issue…. As I have repeated numerous times already we should all reserve judgment on the building until we find out what happened, until then it is merely speculation……..


Be that as it may, unless one happens to have first hand knowledge, one is forced to make value judgements based on subjective assessments.

One does not always have perfect information, and occasionally has to act on incomplete or ambiguous information.

I find it unsurprising that Hezbullah would use civilians as cover. I find it also unsurprising that any bombing campaign would/could be made without error.

The Israelis, from the objective reports that I have seen, have been going out of their way to limit "collateral" damage, and indeed have good reason and motivation to do so.

Hezbullah, on the other hand, has every motivation to hide among civilians, so as to create as many bad news reports as possible. Objective reports that I have seen have substantiated this occurring.

Motivation does not equal action, but in this case when motive is backed up by some objective indicators it is not a hard call to say that in any particular instance what probably happened.

In this case, it was likely that Hezbullah was either negligent in selecting a launch site or actively and cynically using civilians as cover.

Either way the moral responsiblity lies with Hezbullah.

Simple ethics, or in this case, lack of them.

[ShackO]

Be that as it may, unless one happens to have first hand knowledge, one is forced to make value judgements based on subjective assessments.
One does not always have perfect information, and occasionally has to act on incomplete or ambiguous information.

I find it unsurprising that Hezbullah would use civilians as cover. I find it also unsurprising that any bombing campaign would/could be made without error.



The Israelis, from the objective reports that I have seen, have been going out of their way to limit "collateral" damage, and indeed have good reason and motivation to do so.

Hezbullah, on the other hand, has every motivation to hide among civilians, so as to create as many bad news reports as possible. Objective reports that I have seen have substantiated this occurring.

Motivation does not equal action, but in this case when motive is backed up by some objective indicators it is not a hard call to say that in any particular instance what probably happened.

In this case, it was likely that Hezbullah was either negligent in selecting a launch site or actively and cynically using civilians as cover.

Either way the moral responsiblity lies with Hezbullah.

Simple ethics, or in this case, lack of them.

:blah lol... You can only do the best you can with what you have to work with........


Well now I wouldn’t be expecting them to be standing out in an open field inviting a bomb…. Would you??? I would not say they intentionally and cowardly put women and children in the way…… But even an idiot can see they are indifferent to the carnage that results from their actions….

I guess it goes with the territory… If you are firing rockets indiscriminately in the air oblivious if it is hitting Arabs, women or children then you are probably not all that concerned about putting “your neighbors family” in danger…..

You can lay all the blame were ever you want………. Your view is hardly universal…

[gtownspur]

You get dumber with every post.

[ShackO]

I guess if you can't refute it you call names..... seems to always be the case...

[RandomGuy]

You can lay all the blame were ever you want………. Your view is hardly universal…


http://www.trephination.net/gallery/macros/wtf-lightning.jpg

Hmm, your post was not exactly clear as to its meaning/intention, and could use some clarification.

I was simply trying to ethically reason out fault based on what is known.

[gtownspur]

I guess if you can't refute it you call names..... seems to always be the case...


What is there to refute, all you did was put forth an oppinion. There wasn't even facts accompanied with that oppinion.

Heres a fact,

Israel warned the Lebaneses citizens to evacuate so that there wouldnt be such catastrophic deaths. Israel put forth the intention that it wanted to minimalize the death toll, Hezbollah didnt. And even more, Hezbollah still decides to fight from civilian quarters in order to draw more innocent Lebanese lives, but you still insist that both sides are at equal blame.

Pull your pious head out of your ass. The reason you are getting dumber with each post is because you post the same bullshit even after most everyone on here has presented the evidence in light of israels reason for civilian casualties.

To keep on going on about israel's supposed butchering civilians and equating it to hezbollah is idiotic at best.

[ShackO]

What is there to refute, all you did was put forth an oppinion. There wasn't even facts accompanied with that oppinion.

Heres a fact,

Israel warned the Lebaneses citizens to evacuate so that there wouldnt be such catastrophic deaths. Israel put forth the intention that it wanted to minimalize the death toll, Hezbollah didnt. And even more, Hezbollah still decides to fight from civilian quarters in order to draw more innocent Lebanese lives, but you still insist that both sides are at equal blame.

Pull your pious head out of your ass. The reason you are getting dumber with each post is because you post the same bullshit even after most everyone on here has presented the evidence in light of israels reason for civilian casualties.

To keep on going on about israel's supposed butchering civilians and equating it to hezbollah is idiotic at best.


I guess you know were you can stick this........ They could kill a million and you would justify everyone of them......... SLEEP WELL


By HARRY DE QUETTEVILLE - The Daily Telegraph
July 28, 2006

JERUSALEM — Everyone remaining in south Lebanon will be regarded as a terrorist, Israel's justice minister said yesterday as the military prepared to employ "huge firepower" from the air in its campaign to crush Hezbollah.
The warning came as the Israeli government decided against expanding ground operations following the death of nine soldiers in fighting on Wednesday.


"What we should do in southern Lebanon is employ huge firepower before a ground force goes in," the justice minister, Haim Ramon, said at a specially convened security Cabinet meeting headed by Prime Minister Olmert.
"Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah. Our great advantage vis-a-vis Hezbollah is our firepower, not in face-to-face combat," Mr. Ramon said.
Mr. Olmert said, "The army will continue toward the established goals."
Mr. Ramon's comments suggested that civilian casualties in Lebanon, which already stand at about 600 after 16 days of bombardment, could rise yet higher.
The government's unrelenting line has the backing of the Israeli press, which is demanding a harsh response to an ambush, in the Hezbollah stronghold of Bint Jbeil, in which eight soldiers died. The country's biggest selling paper, Yediot Achronot, said the Israeli army has raised the threshold of response to Katyusha rockets: "In other words: A village from which rockets are fired at Israel will simply be destroyed by fire. This decision should have been made and executed after the first Katyusha. But better late than never."
Three divisions of reserve soldiers, up to 15,000 men, are to be called up.
Almost 50 Hezbollah missiles landed in northern Israel yesterday, wounding four and bringing the total number of rockets fired into the country to about 1,400.
[Israel's government authorized the army to call up 30,000 reserve soldiers in case the fighting intensifies, the Associated Press reported.]

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=ShackO]"What we should do in southern Lebanon is employ huge firepower before a ground force goes in," the justice minister, Haim Ramon, said at a specially convened security Cabinet meeting headed by Prime Minister Olmert.
"Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah. Our great advantage vis-a-vis Hezbollah is our firepower, not in face-to-face combat," Mr. Ramon said.
The operative word is "should". Let us know if they begin indiscriminately bombing without regard to civilian casualties. Until that happens it amounts to no more than rhetorical threat.

Not much of a story at the present.

[ShackO]

No prob the deal is done... Sleep well..........

[Nbadan]

What is there to refute, all you did was put forth an oppinion. There wasn't even facts accompanied with that oppinion.

Heres a fact,

Israel warned the Lebaneses citizens to evacuate so that there wouldnt be such catastrophic deaths. Israel put forth the intention that it wanted to minimalize the death toll, Hezbollah didnt. And even more, Hezbollah still decides to fight from civilian quarters in order to draw more innocent Lebanese lives, but you still insist that both sides are at equal blame.

Pull your pious head out of your ass. The reason you are getting dumber with each post is because you post the same bullshit even after most everyone on here has presented the evidence in light of israels reason for civilian casualties.

To keep on going on about israel's supposed butchering civilians and equating it to hezbollah is idiotic at best.

Israel also bombed the Beirut airport, set up a Naval blockade, bombed the main roads and bridges heading to Syria, and bombed clearly marked aid and medicine convoys heading south. What in effect is happening is Israel is telling these people that they should go out into this duck-hunt and try their luck.

[ShackO]

Israel also bombed the Beirut airport, set up a Naval blockade, bombed the main roads and bridges heading to Syria, and bombed clearly marked aid and medicine convoys heading south. What in effect is happening is Israel is telling these people that they should go out into this duck-hunt and try their luck.

EXACTLY....