The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself

[ShackO]

Hunker Down With History

By Richard Cohen
Tuesday, July 18, 2006; Page A19

The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now. Israel fights Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south, but its most formidable enemy is history itself. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/17/AR2006071701154.html)

This is why the Israeli-Arab war, now transformed into the Israeli-Muslim war (Iran is not an Arab state), persists and widens. It is why the conflict mutates and festers. It is why Israel is now fighting an organization, Hezbollah, that did not exist 30 years ago and why Hezbollah is being supported by a nation, Iran, that was once a tacit ally of Israel's. The underlying, subterranean hatred of the Jewish state in the Islamic world just keeps bubbling to the surface. The leaders of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and some other Arab countries may condemn Hezbollah, but I doubt the proverbial man in their street shares that view.


There is no point in condemning Hezbollah. Zealots are not amenable to reason. And there's not much point, either, in condemning Hamas. It is a fetid, anti-Semitic outfit whose organizing principle is hatred of Israel. There is, though, a point in cautioning Israel to exercise restraint -- not for the sake of its enemies but for itself. Whatever happens, Israel must not use its military might to win back what it has already chosen to lose: the buffer zone in southern Lebanon and the Gaza Strip itself.

Hard-line critics of Ariel Sharon, the now-comatose Israeli leader who initiated the pullout from Gaza, always said this would happen: Gaza would become a terrorist haven. They said that the moderate Palestinian Authority would not be able to control the militants and that Gaza would be used to fire rockets into Israel and to launch terrorist raids. This is precisely what has happened.

It is also true, as some critics warned, that Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon was seen by its enemies -- and claimed by Hezbollah -- as a defeat for the mighty Jewish state. Hezbollah took credit for this, as well it should. Its persistent attacks bled Israel. In the end, Israel got out and the United Nations promised it a secure border. The Lebanese army would see to that. (And the check is in the mail.)

All that the critics warned has come true. But worse than what is happening now would be a retaking of those territories. That would put Israel smack back to where it was, subjugating a restless, angry population and having the world look on as it committed the inevitable sins of an occupying power. The smart choice is to pull back to defensible -- but hardly impervious -- borders. That includes getting out of most of the West Bank -- and waiting (and hoping) that history will get distracted and move on to something else. This will take some time, and in the meantime terrorism and rocket attacks will continue.

In his forthcoming book, "The War of the World," the admirably readable British historian Niall Ferguson devotes considerable space to the horrific history of the Jews in 19th- and 20th-century Europe. Never mind the Holocaust. In 1905 there were pogroms in 660 different places in Russia, and more than 800 Jews were killed -- all this in a period of less than two weeks. This was the reality of life for many of Europe's Jews.

Little wonder so many of them emigrated to the United States, Canada, Argentina or South Africa. Little wonder others embraced the dream of Zionism and went to Palestine, first a colony of Turkey and later of Britain. They were in effect running for their lives. Most of those who remained -- 97.5 percent of Poland's Jews, for instance -- were murdered in the Holocaust.

Another gifted British historian, Tony Judt, wraps up his recent book "Postwar" with an epilogue on how the sine qua non of the modern civilized state is recognition of the Holocaust. Much of the Islamic world, notably Iran under its Holocaust-denying president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, stands outside that circle, refusing to make even a little space for the Jews of Europe and, later, those from the Islamic world. They see Israel not as a mistake but as a crime. Until they change their view, the longest war of the 20th century will persist deep into the 21st. It is best for Israel to hunker down.

[Obstructed_View]

The hubris of someone suggesting that they just retreat to their borders and continue to allow rocket attacks into their country from two borders. Advising them to "hunker down" when it seems clear that the world is just waiting until Iran's second nuclear weapon takes care of the problem for everyone doesn't seem easy to do and keep a clear conscience. Israel keeps giving up territory captured in armed conflict away and exchanges prisioners for hostages at the behest of diplomats who still fail to support them when every agreement is violated by the other side. If only they didn't exercise the restraint the world accuses them of lacking, if only for their own survival.

[Extra Stout]

Does "hunker down" mean "cower while rockets rain down on you" or does it mean "keep on fighting your enemies but don't re-occupy any territory?"

[gtownspur]

Somebody slap the author of that piece.

[whottt]

Hunker Down With History

By Richard Cohen
Tuesday, July 18, 2006; Page A19

The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable,


Absolutely false.

It wasn't a mistake.
It wasn't a well intentioned mistake.
And it is a "mistake" for which several parties are culpable.

It's becoming more and more clear to me that the group that is pro terrorist/appeasement, is not pro terrorist/appeasement out of evil design...

They're just guilty of plain ole ignorance of the post war protectorates of WWI, their motivations, as well as the Ottoman Empire and immediate Pre WWII history.


The people that are the #1 most culpable for this deliberate mistake, are the British, followed by the French, and finally the UN.

But the party most responsible is the British.

For a variety of reasons...

But the Brits have never had the stomach to handle guerilla warfare, when faced with savage tactics, they say fuck it and bail, that's how the United States was able to gain independence, that's why their adventures in the Middle East destroyed their empire.



This Palestinian Israeli conflict was caused by the Brits attempting to appease both the Isaraelis(for financial reasons as well as their own anti-Jew sentiment and Europes) and the Palestinians(because they hate dealing with savages).


The Jews were looking to buy land in several areas to create a jewish state...at one time it was even thought that Argentina would be this state...


There is a long and clear history here and the Brits are most definitely the most culpable party.


And people need to realize something else...

Europe as a whole was anti-semitic, the Germans get the worst rap, but they didn't invent anti-semitism, they weren't even the first European country to embrace it...France was, but it was also embraced by the Brits and the Germans as well. And they still are still largely anti-semitic countries.


Israel was seen as a solution to ridding Europe of jews, and they were never expected to survive their initial founding in 1948.
The same savagery(now called terrorism) that made the European colonial empires want to get the hell out of the middle east leaving only despots(friendly towards their plundering designs) to rule, was supposed to absolutely annhialate the fledgling jewish state...but Israel said fuck that and didn't follow the script..

And they've been doing it every since....

The only mistake was on the part of the European powers in underestimating the jews ability to survive being surrounded by enemies on all sides and willingness to do what they would have to do to survive....


People really need to check some history sometime....


THe entire fucked up situation in the Middle East...


Was created by Europe(the colonial powers), just like the fucked up situation in Africa...and part of Asia...

And when all these countries piss and moan about what an evil colonial empire we are and how we just want to install puppet leaders and plunder the wealth of the middle east....

They are talking about what was done to them by the European colonial powers....and attributing the deads to the US.

About the only thing we have truly done along those lines in the middle east was putting the Shah back in powers...something the British were in favor of, and we unfortunately did it their way instead of ours.



You show me an despotic inhumane regime in the Middle East or Africa and Asia, and I'll show you one that was probably put in power by Britain or France.

[Crookshanks]

Israel a mistake? That is the most absurd thing I have heard in a long time! Try reading the bible as a history book and you will see the long and rich history of the Jewish people - going all the way back to Abraham. The Jews are occupying the land that God promised them and they are not EVER going to leave!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I don't know who's a bigger dumbass - RIchard Cohen for writing it, or ShackO for posting/linking it.

Tell what you what ShackO. Let's start firing about a 100 rockets a day at the town/city where you live. Let's see how long it takes you to want to fight back.

[smeagol]

The Jews were looking to buy land in several areas to create a jewish state...at one time it was even thought that Argentina would be this state...

Man! Another missed opportunity to help develop my country.

[ShackO]

I don't know who's a bigger dumbass - RIchard Cohen for writing it, or ShackO for posting/linking it.

Tell what you what ShackO. Let's start firing about a 100 rockets a day at the town/city where you live. Let's see how long it takes you to want to fight back.

LOL.......... You might be right........... If someone fuxed with you or I we would certainly enjoy taking the law into our own hands and kill every MF one of them that attacked us...... :pctoss Fortunately for mankind there are others supposedly wiser, smarter and more even tempered to deal with these problems..... :wakeup

That said put your self in the Lebanese shoes for a minute or two..... You got fuxing armed fighters running around doing crazy shxt and you are helpless to do anything about it..... Your neighbors backyard becomes a target for some reason and now your gramma and three kids are dead as a result....... You have not done a damn thing and couldn't if you wanted to... How you feeling now???

I would imagine a lot like the ppl in Israel getting bombed…

That is where I am coming from on this.... Kill the fighters not the innocent civilians, women and children.. It is goinig to hurt both Lebanon and Israel..

[Extra Stout]

That is where I am coming from on this.... Kill the fighters not the innocent civilians, women and children.. It is goinig to hurt both Lebanon and Israel..
Good idea. We need to get to work on super-smart bad-guy-seeking bombs that can pick out the Hezbollah members in a crowd and kill just them.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Israel a mistake? That is the most absurd thing I have heard in a long time! Try reading the bible as a history book and you will see the long and rich history of the Jewish people - going all the way back to Abraham. The Jews are occupying the land that God promised them and they are not EVER going to leave!

:smokin exactly.......

Israel will NEVER be defeated, its been foretold for thousands of years. God has his hand on that nation and no amount of crazy terrorists will defeat it. :fro

Its sad to see people dieing from both sides but its refreshing to know that no army will ever destroy Israel.

[ShackO]

Good idea. We need to get to work with super guided missiles and precession guided rockets made in the USA, control the air and sea over Lebanon so that we can pick out the Hezbollah members and kill about 800 innocent people. :spin

[ShackO]

:smokin exactly.......

Israel will NEVER be defeated, its been foretold for thousands of years. God has his hand on that nation and no amount of crazy terrorists will defeat it. :fro

Its sad to see people dieing from both sides but its refreshing to know that no army will ever destroy Israel.


So tell us all when God gave them back that land???

I hae read the book and I know when he tossed their asses out... Were is it written he gave it back to them??????

[David Bowie]

ShakO, could you possibly keep anti-Israel threads to a 5 a day maximum?

[ShackO]

Sure if you get everyone else join in a cease fire and disarm :spin

Till then NO

[David Bowie]

And no Israel will equal peace in the Middle East right? Pretty much none of these countries have a viable economy. The majority of the population is very poor while the people at the very top prosper. Why would they want a cease fire when its much easier to blame Israel for all the problems. I mean, if there's no Israel, many of these so called leaders will actually have to do something about the economy and actually do something for its own people.

[ShackO]

Well that is certainly true of many places in the Middle East, it is not true of Lebanon… A lot of it is very cosmopolitan and modern…. Hell, there is even a place for a rebel, rebel like yourself there in Beirut..

[Yonivore]

Well that is certainly true of many places in the Middle East, it is not true of Lebanon… A lot of it is very cosmopolitan and modern…. Hell, there is even a place for a rebel, rebel like yourself there in Beirut..
I'd wait awhile before you make your travel plans.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

You got fuxing armed fighters running around doing crazy shxt and you are helpless to do anything about it

Lebanon has an army, and the people of Lebanon could join them and rise up and get rid of Hezbollah.

I was rooting for Lebanon when they told Syria to fuck off but now they're just looking the other way while Hezbollah runs crazy around their southern provinces. Man up and do something about it.

As for if Israel didn't exist, there would be peace in the Mideast...

1. If Israel was at the brink of extermination they would nuke Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, probably Qatar and the UAE too.

2. If somehow that didn't get them all the Shi'ites and the Sunnis would just go back to fighting each other.

[ShackO]

LOL……… I would hate to end up like those other innocent ppl…

[Extra Stout]

I don't really have any idea of a realistic way to resolve the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict, so instead I'm going to pretend either that Israel could avoid killing civilians if they really tried, or that Hezbollah actually would be interested in peace. Because the most important thing is to maintain my personal sense of moral superiority.

[Extra Stout]

and the UAB too.

They're gonna nuke The University of Alabama at Birmingham????

[Yonivore]

They're gonna nuke The University of Alabama at Birmingham????
Well, it is Alabama. Maybe he was referring to the United Arab Bastards.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Sorry, was doing some fantasy basketball research right before I posted this, UAB.. :lol

[ShackO]

I don't really have any idea of a realistic way to resolve the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict, so instead I'm going to pretend either that Israel could avoid killing civilians if they really tried, or that Hezbollah actually would be interested in peace. Because the most important thing is to maintain my personal sense of moral superiority.

Lol……..Well said

Just to clarify it for you..... Israel could do a much better job of it..... Most of the world agrees with that...... No pissbalah does not want peace and Israel only wants peace on it's own terms..........

As far as my moral superiority…… You can take it any way you like….. You kill hundreds of innocent ppl I guess I am going to have something to say about it… Get use to it………………

[Obstructed_View]

You kill hundreds of innocent ppl I guess I am going to have something to say about it…
Okay, Hezbollah killed over a hundred innocent people in Argentina in two separate attacks in '92 and '94. I'm waiting to hear what you have to say.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Okay, Hezbollah killed over a hundred innocent people in Argentina in two separate attacks in '92 and '94. I'm waiting to hear what you have to say.

They're just freedom fighters, you can't blame them for accidental killings [/SnaqO]

[Extra Stout]

Lol……..Well said

Just to clarify it for you..... Israel could do a much better job of it..... Most of the world agrees with that...... No pissbalah does not want peace and Israel only wants peace on it's own terms..........

As far as my moral superiority…… You can take it any way you like….. You kill hundreds of innocent ppl I guess I am going to have something to say about it… Get use to it………………

The most I could say is that israel is being sloppy about its attacks, and that by doing such a poor job it is compromising international support for its acts of self-defense.

[Obstructed_View]

The most I could say is that israel is being sloppy about its attacks, and that by doing such a poor job it is compromising international support for its acts of self-defense.
Agreed, although one could make a convincing case that it's difficult to be any more precise against an enemy that fires rockets indiscriminantly while hiding among non-combatants who act as willing participants in the propoganda arising from any given situation. Someone on one of the news stations said that Hezbollah "will fight to the last Lebanese civilian". That pretty much sums it up.

[ShackO]

The most I could say is that israel is being sloppy about its attacks, and that by doing such a poor job it is compromising international support for its acts of self-defense.


LOL………

The elevation of the status pissbalah dose no good for anyone, especially the ppl in Lebanon or Israel……….

[Obstructed_View]

LOL………

The elevation of the status pissbalah dose no good for anyone, especially the ppl in Lebanon or Israel……….
Agreed. Israel should stay until they've wiped Hezbollah completely out.

[cheguevara]

hahaha what a stupid ass thread. Do you think Israel is the only country formed out of a mistake? 90% of countries are freaking mistakes.

[Obstructed_View]

hahaha what a stupid ass thread. Do you think Israel is the only country formed out of a mistake? 90% of countries are freaking mistakes.
Good point. Actually, most countries are formed by armed conquest of another people. Israel was purchased, approved and voted on by other nations in a democratic process, and they didn't even kick anyone out of their country until they were attacked on the first day of their existence. :lol

[Obstructed_View]

They're just freedom fighters, you can't blame them for accidental killings [/SnaqO]
Well, you have to give Hezbollah credit for not killing people because a million Israelis are hiding in bunkers instead of in buildings full of munitions. Hezbollah is, after all, only interested in making sure people in Israel aren't going to work.

[Extra Stout]

Most of the countries in Africa are total freaking mistakes, with borders that are nothing more than relics of the colonial era, with absolutely no bearing on the nations of people found within their borders.

Countries like Afghanistan have borders that only have meaning on a map.

The Middle Eastern countries are similar. Iraq's borders are a mistake too.

[ShackO]

LOL............. Agreed 100%........

Afghanistan was drawn up simply as a buffer to keep the Russians from British India… Kurds didn’t get shit to appease the Turks……. Africa is a cluster fux of meaningless lines that people continue to die over…….