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Crookshanks
08-01-2006, 02:40 PM
This is a long article, but very well written, with lots of information regarding the history of Israel and the Middle East. If you will take the time to read it (even a portion of it), you will see why evangelical christians believe what we believe and why we are watching the events in the Middle East with such great interest.

THE MIDDLE EAST CRISIS IN BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE
by Dr. David R. Reagan

"Why don't those stubborn Jews just give the Arabs the West Bank so that there can be peace in the Middle East?"

The question was directed to me by a grumpy man I was sitting next to on an airplane.

Suspecting that the man did not have the foggiest idea what he was talking about, I responded with a question: "Where is the West Bank?"

"You know," he said.

"Yes, I know, but do you?"

"Well, of course I know!" he snapped.

"Okay then, where is it?" I asked again, insisting that he answer.

"Well . . . well . . ." he sputtered, "the West Bank is the west bank of the Nile!"

It was all I could do to refrain from laughing out loud. Yet, it really wasn't a laughing matter. Here was a man demanding the Israelis surrender the West Bank when he had no idea where the West Bank was even located. He was embarrassed when I explained that the west bank of the Nile belongs to Egypt, not Israel. And he was astounded when I pointed out that if Israel were to surrender the real West Bank, the nation would be left in an indefensible position, being only 9 miles wide at its narrowest point.

My conversation with this man was a typical one concerning the complexities of Middle East politics. Most people know little, if anything, about the area except the anti-Israel propaganda they have heard through biased media sources. Yet, they are willing to sit in their comfortable homes halfway around the world and pontificate about how the Israelis need to stop being so stubborn and start surrendering land for peace.

Much has been written about the Middle East crisis from a political perspective, but it will never be understood apart from its spiritual roots, for it is, from start to finish, a spiritual conflict -- which is why it will never be settled politically.

The Abrahamic Covenant
The controlling factor spiritually is a promise which God made to Abraham almost 4,000 years ago. That promise is contained in Genesis 12:1-3:

Now the Lord said to Abram,
"Go forth from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father's house
To the land which I will show you;


And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;


And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth shall
be blessed."

Theologians refer to this passage as the Abrahamic Covenant. Note that it contains a series of unconditional promises. Never once does God say, "If you will do so-and-so . . ." or "If you will be faithful . . ." The promises are absolute and unconditional.

And what glorious promises they are! God promises Abraham a land, a nation, a great name, protection, and -- most important of all -- that through him all nations will be blessed. The latter promise referred, of course, to the fact that the Messiah, the Savior of the world, would come through Abraham's lineage.

The Lord appeared to Abraham six additional times to reaffirm this covenant (Genesis 12:7; 13:14-16; 15:1-6; 15: 8-21; 17:1-8; and 22:15-18). In these subsequent appearances, God declared that the covenant was an "everlasting" one (Genesis 17:7-8), and He spelled out the boundaries of the land in detail as encompassing most of what is referred to today as the Middle East (Genesis 15:18-21). The covenant was reaffirmed to Abraham's son, Isaac (Genesis 26:1-5), and to Isaac's son, Jacob (Genesis 28:3-4,13-14 and 35:10-12).

A thousand years later, King David affirmed the continuing validity of the Abrahamic Covenant in Psalm 105:

8. He [God] has remembered His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded to a thousand
generations,

9. The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac.

10. Then He confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,

11. Saying, "To you I will give the land of Canaan
As the portion of your inheritance."

The Abrahamic Covenant establishes title to the land in the Middle East. That title belongs to the Jewish people forever -- with no ands, ifs, or buts.

Their use and enjoyment of the land is, however, conditional upon their obedience to God. This fact was established by a second covenant given through Moses right before the Children of Israel entered the land of Canaan. This covenant, often referred to as the Land Covenant, is recorded in Deuteronomy 28-30.

In the Land Covenant, God made it clear that the Jews' enjoyment of the land would depend upon their faithfulness to Him. If they were faithful, they would be richly blessed (Deuteronomy 28:1-14). But if they were unfaithful, they would be cursed in many different ways (Deuteronomy 28:15-46).

The greatest curse which God promised to put upon them was their displacement from the land. The Babylonian captivity, which lasted 70 years, is clearly prophesied in Deuteronomy 28:47-57. And their worldwide dispersion, which began in 70 AD, is graphically described in Deuteronomy 28:58-67

The Critical Point
Now, the important point to keep in mind is that God's gift of the land was unconditional. The Jews were given an irrevokable, eternal title. But the use and enjoyment of the land was conditional upon their obedience.

Let me illustrate the point to you with a modern day example. Let's say you have a teenage son who has just turned 16 and has acquired his driver's license. You decide to bless him by buying him a new car and putting the title in his name. The car belongs to him, but you make it clear to him that his use of the car will depend upon his obedience to the law. If he gets a speeding ticket, the car will be locked up in the garage for a week. It will still belong to him, but he will not be able to use it.

The Ejection of the Jews
The Children of Israel entered the Promised Land under the leadership of Joshua, Moses' successor. They proceeded to occupy the land for the next 750 years (400 under the Judges and 350 under the Kings). But in violation of God's law, they intermarried with the Canaanites, and ended up worshiping their false gods.

God sent prophets like Elijah and Elisha to call them out of idolatry, but they persisted. Finally, God raised up foreign armies as His sword of discipline and allowed them to conquer the Jews and take them into captivity. The Assyrians dispersed the ten Jewish tribes living in the northern kingdom of Israel. When the remaining two tribes in the southern kingdom of Judah failed to get the message, God allowed the Babylonians to capture and exile them.

Seventy years later, in His grace and mercy, God allowed the Jews of Judah to return to their land and rebuild both Jerusalem and their sacred temple. But the Jewish people persisted in rebellion for the next 400 years, and when they rejected their Messiah, God allowed the Romans to conquer and disperse them worldwide, in fulfillment of prophecy.

But again, the crucial point to keep in mind is that the Jews did not lose their title to the land. They lost only their use and enjoyment of it, as a punishment for their disobedience. To this day, the Jews have remained under discipline. They may be back in a portion of their land, but their enjoyment of it is being deterred by constant Arab attacks.

The Promise of Regathering
The modern day return of the Jews to their land is one of the greatest miracles of history. It is also a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

In the Land Covenant itself, God promised that if the Jews were ever dispersed from their land due to disobedience, they would one day be regathered (Deuteronomy 30:1-9). This promise of restoration to the land is the most prolific prophecy in the Hebrew Scriptures, mentioned more times than any other prophecy.

When you study these regathering prophecies carefully, you will find that they fall into three categories. A few relate to the return from Babylonian captivity (Jeremiah 25:10-12 and 29:1-10). Most, however, are prophecies concerning two great end time regatherings from all over the world -- one in unbelief before the Lord returns (Isaiah 11:10-12 and Ezekiel 36:22-28) and the other in belief after the Lord returns (Deuteronomy 30:1-10 and Ezekiel 37:19-28).

The Regathering in Unbelief
Regarding the end time regathering in unbelief, God set it in motion in the late 19th Century when He began to raise up prophetic voices among the Jews in Europe, calling them to return to their homeland. God knew the Holocaust was coming, so He called the Jewish people to return to their roots.

The key individual He used to spread this warning message was a Viennese journalist named Theodore Herzl. Like most European Jews, Herzl believed the Jews had been assimilated into European culture and would never again suffer from outbreaks of Anti-Semitism. But in 1894 he went to Paris to cover the trial of a French Army officer named Alfred Dreyfus. This man had been accused of treason, primarily because he was a Jew. When Herzl arrived at the courthouse, he was astonished to see tens of thousands of sophisticated Parisians standing in the streets shouting, "Death to the Jews!"

His eyes were opened to the fact that Jews had not been assimilated and never would be. He responded by writing a pamphlet called "The Jewish State." In it, he called for Jews worldwide to return to their homeland, which at that time was called Palestine. In 1897 he convened the first international Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland. At that conference, he proclaimed his belief that a Jewish state would come into existence within 50 years.

Herzl's vision motivated waves of immigrants to return to Palestine. These waves were dubbed "aliyas" -- after the Hebrew word, aliya, which means "to go up." This word was used because the immigrants were viewed as "going up to Jerusalem."

By 1900 there were 40,000 Jews in Palestine. During the years immediately preceding World War II, and during the war itself, many barriers were placed in the way of Jewish immigration, but even so, by the end of the war, the Jewish population had swelled to over 700,000. Today there are over 6 million Jews in Israel who have come -- as prophesied -- from the four corners of the world (Isaiah 11:12).

The two world wars were the key events that led to the return of the Jews to their homeland, proving once again that God can bring good out of any calamity. World War I prepared the land for the people; World War II prepared the people for the land.

The Impact of World War I
During World War I the Turks sided with the Germans. Their realm, called the Ottoman Empire, included most of the lands of the Middle East, including Palestine. When the Germans lost the war, the Turks did also, and their empire was divided up among the Allied victors. In a secret pact signed in 1916 (called the Sykes-Picot Agreement), the British and French agreed to divide the Middle East between themselves when the war ended. Britain received Palestine while the French were given Syria.

In November 1917 the British announced that they intended to create a homeland for the Jews within the territory of Palestine that had been allotted to them. At that time Palestine consisted of all of modern day Israel and Jordan -- an area of 45,000 square miles.

Jews worldwide were elated over the Balfour Declaration. But the ink was hardly dry before the British government changed its mind. To placate Arab animosity, they decided in 1922 to give two-thirds of Palestine to the Arabs, creating a Palestinian state called Transjordan.

Jewish leaders were terribly disappointed by this decision, and many felt betrayed by the British. But they still looked forward to establishing a Jewish state within the part of Palestine that was left -- a sliver of land only 10,000 square miles in size, smaller than Lake Michigan or the state of New Jersey.
The Impact of World War II
Even after God had miraculously produced a homeland for the Jews out of the horrors of World War I, the Jewish people did not return in great numbers. Most felt comfortable in Europe and simply could not believe the rising chorus of prophetic voices who warned of an approaching time of widespread persecution.

World War II produced the Holocaust which, in turn, provided the motivation for the Jews to return home. They came out of the war saying, "Never again! Never again! Never again will we live under a Hitler. We are going to have our own land, our own government, our own state." This feeling produced a flood of refugees.

In November of 1947 (50 years after Herzl's proclamation), Jews worldwide were elated when the United Nations voted to allow the establishment of a Jewish state. But they were severely disappointed when the United Nations decided at the same time to divide the remaining portion of Palestine once again. Half was apportioned to the Jews for the creation of a Jewish state. The other half was assigned to the Arabs for the establishment of a second Palestinian state.

Despite their disappointment, the Jews accepted the UN resolution and proceeded to declare the existence of their new state on May 14, 1948. The Arabs rejected the UN vote and declared war on Israel.

The plan provided for the establishment of two states, one for the Jews, the other for the Arabs. The Jewish state was to consist of the Galilee, the Mediterranean coastal plain, and the Negev Desert. The Arab state was made up mainly of the heartland of ancient Israel (Samaria and Judea). The Arab state also included the Gaza Strip and a portion of the Galilee.

The Choice of War
Please note carefully that the Arabs could have peacefully and legally established a second Palestinian state in 1948. They chose war instead, because they were unwilling to tolerate a Jewish state in the Middle East -- even a minuscule one of only 5,000 square miles. This action on the part of the Arabs -- and many like it since that time -- is what prompted one of Israel's most eloquent spokesmen, Abba Eban, to say, "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Since 1948 there has been war after war in the Middle East as the Arabs have tried repeatedly to destroy Israel -- the Suez War of 1956, the Six Day War of 1967, the Yom Kippur War of 1973, the Lebanese War of 1982, the Gulf War of 1991, and the current Arab Uprising War which started in September of 2001.

For those who support the return of the Jews to their homeland, it is comforting to know that all efforts to destroy the Jewish state are doomed to failure. The reason this can be asserted with certainty is because of a promise contained in the book of Amos. In this passage, God says that when He re-establishes the Jews in their homeland in the end times, "they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them" (Amos 9:15).
The Arab Position
Let's switch our attention for a moment to the Arabs. Just as God made a covenant with Abraham's heirs through Isaac, He also made promises to Abraham's descendants through Ishmael, the father of the Arab nations (Genesis 16:10-12 and 17:20). Here is a list of the remarkable promises God made to the Arab peoples:

The descendants of Ishmael will be multiplied "exceedingly" (Genesis 16:10 and 17:20).

They will become a great nation (Genesis 17:20).

They will be given all the land east of Canaan (Genesis 16:12).

They will be given a personality like a "wild donkey," and because of this, "their hand will be against everyone" (Genesis 16:12).

God has faithfully fulfilled all these promises

There are 200 million Arabs today.

They constitute a great nation composed of 21 states.

They occupy 5.3 million square miles of oil rich land.

They are characterized by an inability to get along with anyone, including themselves.

In contrast, there is only one Jewish state with a population of 6 million squeezed into an area of only 8,000 square miles. That's a population ratio of 33 to 1 and a land ratio of 662 to 1! And yet, the Arabs greedily demand the creation of another Arab state at the expense of the one Jewish state.

The Palestinian Myth
Regarding the Palestinians, during the nearly 1,900 years that the Jews were dispossessed of their land:

There was never a Palestinian state.

Jerusalem was never the capital of any Arab state.

The Arabs who lived in the area considered themselves to be Syrians.

There was no Palestinian identity, culture, or language

The concept of a Palestinian claim on the land is a propaganda gimmick developed after the Six Day War in 1967 when Jordan lost the West Bank to Israel.

The Arab Claim on Jerusalem
The same is true of the Arab claim on Jerusalem. The Arabs contend that Jerusalem is the third most holy place behind Mecca and Medina. But again, all this emphasis on the significance of Jerusalem has developed in recent years.

There is no mention of Jerusalem in the Koran, whereas it is mentioned 667 times by name in the Hebrew Scriptures. Although the Arabs claim that Mohammed came to Jerusalem and from there ascended into heaven, there is no historical evidence whatsoever that Mohammed ever even came close to Jerusalem. The real geographical focus of Islam is the city of Mecca. Muslims pray toward this city, and it is to this city that they are required to make a pilgrimage once in their lifetime.

The real claim of the Arabs is based upon a portion of the Koran that states that once a land has been conquered for Allah, it must remain an Islamic land. The Arabs conquered the land and city in the Middle Ages when they drove the Crusaders out. They now feel compelled by the Koran to reconquer it.

There are two other motivations for the Arab desire to retake both Israel and Jerusalem. The first is rooted in the fact that the re-establishment of the state of Israel is viewed by Muslim clerics as a judgment of God upon the Arab peoples for their lack of faithfulness to Islam. They must redeem themselves from this judgment by returning to the fundamentals of Islam and then, having been spiritually revived, Allah will empower them to regain both the land and the city.

The second factor is that the Arabs believe that their control of Jerusalem and its Temple Mount will certify their superiority over both Judaism and Christianity. The Temple Mount was the focal point of the Jewish faith for centuries because it was where the Temple was located. And it is believed that the Temple Mount is where the first Gospel sermon was preached by Peter on Pentecost, and thus was the site of the birthplace of the Church.

The Arab Aim

The goal of the Arabs is not the establishment of another state within Palestine. Rather, the goal is the incorporation of all the remainder of Palestine into a second Arab state. In other words, the goal is the annihilation of Israel. They have made this intention very clear in several ways:

1) The Phased Plan of 1974 -- This plan, issued while the PLO was headquarted in Libya, is Arafat's "Mein Kampf." It was issued after Arafat realized he would never be able to destroy Israel militarily. So, he proposed as an alternative, that Israel be taken slowly, piece by piece, by using diplomatic pressure from the Vatican, Western Europe, the United Nations and the United States. Territory would be traded for a false promise of peace. And when enough territory had been gained, Israel would be attacked from within and destroyed. In other words, it was a Trojan horse strategy. Feisal Husseini, who served as Arafat's foreign minister until his death in 2001, admitted this strategy in the last newspaper interview that he gave. He said, "The Oslo Accords were a Trojan horse. The strategic goal is the liberation of Palestine from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea . . ."

2) Arafat's Speeches -- In May of 1994, just eight months after signing the Oslo Accords at the White House, Arafat gave a speech in Johannesburg, South Africa in which he called for a "holy jihad" to liberate Jerusalem. He also mocked the Oslo agreement as nothing but a strategic ploy to gain time. He likened it to Mohammed's treaty with the tribe of Koraish. That was a treaty in which Mohammed agreed to peace with the tribe of Koraish if they would allow him to pray in Mecca. Within two years, when Mohammed felt he had grown strong enough militarily, he abrogated the agreement, slaughtered the tribe of Koraish, and conquered Mecca for Allah. The Johannesburg speech was only one of many similar ones that Arafat has given all over the Arab world to assure the Arab masses that the Oslo Accords are meaningless.

3) Continued Terrorism -- Even though the land-for-peace process initiated by the Oslo Accords has resulted in 97% of Palestinians being placed under the control of the Palestinian Authority, the violence against Israel continues to escalate. In the year following the signing of the Oslo Accords (September 1993 to September 1994), there were over twice as many Israeli terror fatalities than during the preceding year. Overall, Israel suffered 73% more terror fatalities in the two years after the 1993 deal than in the two years before it. And more Israelis were killed by Palestinian terrorists in the first five years after Olso than in the 15 preceding years! From the outbreak of the current Arab uprising in September 2000 until July 1, 2002, there have been 13,494 terrorist attacks against Israelis, resulting in 4,213 casualties, including 561 killed.

4) Palestinian Maps -- The website of the Palestinian State Information Service contains a map of the projected state of Palestine that includes all of modern day Israel. This same map hangs on the wall of Arafat's office and is used on shoulder patches of Palestinian uniforms.

5) Rejection of the Barak Offer -- In July of 2000 the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Barak, decided to put Arafat to the test by offering him everything he had been publicly demanding. In short, he called Arafat's bluff. To summarize the offer, he proposed giving the Palestinian Authority 96% of the West Bank and Gaza, 4% of Israel adjacent to Gaza, three-fourths of the Old City of Jerusalem and sovereignty over the Temple Mount, five neighborhoods in east Jerusalem, and the right of return for 50,000 Palestinians. Arafat got up, walked out of the room, and never returned. He did not even make a counter offer. Instead, he launched the uprising that began in September 2000.

The Jewish Position

With Arab intentions so clear, why has Israel staked its future on a hope that it can secure peace by trading land? There are at least three key reasons.

1) Humanistic Leadership -- Menachem Begin is the only Prime Minister of Israel who has been an observant Jew. All others have been marginal believers, if not atheists or agnostics. Accordingly, the prevailing philosophy among Israeli leaders has been humanism, with its faith in the goodness of Man. This philosophy has entrapped the leaders in self-deception, convincing them that if they will only be kind and gracious toward their enemy, then their enemy will reciprocate. It was this type of muddle-headed thinking that prompted Yitzak Rabin and Shimon Peres to believe they could charm and placate the Arabs through a policy of appeasement.

2) Desire for Acceptance -- Throughout their long history, the Jewish people have had a desire for acceptance. When they demanded that Samuel provide them with a king, he warned them that a king would abuse and exploit them. But they refused to listen to Samuel's warnings because, as they put it, "we want to be like all the other nations" (1 Samuel 8:20). God set the Jewish people apart to be a witness of Him (Isaiah 43:10-12), and they have never liked that role. Again, the Jewish leadership has deceived itself into believing that if it will only give in to world pressure regarding the establishment of a Palestinian state, then the world will accept Israel. The truth is that no matter what Israel does, the world will continue to hate the Jews and their state.

3) American Pressure -- Because the United States is Israel's only ally in the world, they are particularly responsive to pressure from us. We may be their only ally, but we have been unwilling to come down decisively on their side because of our interest in procuring Arab oil and our desire to build an Arab coalition against terrorism. We are the ones, in fact, who forced them to the negotiating table to trade land for peace. It all occurred in 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed and a flood of Jewish refugees began to return to Israel. For over a year, 2,000 to 3,000 refugees arrived each day! The Israeli government was swamped by the demands for food and housing and jobs. They appealed to the world bank for a $5 billion loan. The bank responded by saying they would provide the loan only if it were guaranteed by the United States. The Bush Administration dug in its heels and demanded that the Israelis start trading land for peace in order to get the loan guarantee. That is how the Israelis got started down the self-destructive road of appeasement.

The Folly of Appeasement
History makes it clear that a policy of appeasement always leads to war because it merely whets the appetite of the aggressor. But from 1991 to 2000, the Israeli leadership ignored the lessons of history and fervently pursued its policy of trading land for peace.

The turning point came in the summer of 2000 when Ehud Barak caved in to Palestinian terror and offered Arafat everything except the keys to the Knesset. When Arafat refused even to consider the offer, the eyes of the Israeli people were opened to the truth that Arafat was not interested in peace. They finally realized that he was determined to take all of Israel.

That realization produced an earthquake in Israeli public opinion. The voters decided to wash their hands of Barak and his party of equivocators. They turned to Ariel Sharon, a strong leader who had never been deceived by Arab intentions. Sharon was elected Prime Minister in February of 2001, and his determination to draw the line on what Israel is willing to surrender for peace has resulted in all the world coming together against Israel over the issue of Jerusalem, just as prophesied by Zechariah.

Crucial Questions
Why has God regathered the Jews to their homeland? What is the likely future of Israel? What does it all mean to the Church?

The Regathering
God has regathered the Jews from the four corners of the earth because He has a plan of redemption for a great remnant of them. His plan is to gather them to their homeland and bring all the nations of the world together against them over the issue of the control of Jerusalem. This will ultimately lead to another holocaust that will be worse than the one perpetrated by the Nazis. Zechariah says that two-thirds of the Jews will die (Zechariah 13:8). But out of that horrible experience, the Jews will be brought to the end of themselves, with no one to turn to for help except God. That's when the remnant will repent of their rejection of the Messiah and will accept Him as their Savior (Zechariah 12:10 and 13:1). The apostle Paul taught this concept in the New Testament in Romans 9-11. He argues that a great remnant of the Jews (Romans 9:27) will turn to the Lord and be saved (Romans 11:25-26).

The Likely Future
There are some tough days ahead for the Jews of Israel. I believe the most likely scenario is a major war that will result in Arab missile attacks on Tel Aviv and Haifa. (keep in mind that his article was written in July of 2002!) To survive, the Israelis will have to respond with nuclear weapons. This is probably the reason the Bible teaches that Damascus will cease to exist in the end times (Isaiah 17:1-14 and Jeremiah 49:23-27). My notes: when Damascus is destroyed, maybe some of you will finally believe.

With the destruction of Damascus, the Arab world will be thrown into a panic. That's when they will call for help from their natural ally, the Russians. The Russians will then send a great army to destroy Israel. The Russians will be motivated not only by their ingrained anti-Semitism, but also by their desire to seize all the Arab oil fields in the Middle East.

The Bible says the Russian army will be destroyed supernaturally on the hills of Israel in such a way that even the Israelis will know that they were not responsible for it (Ezekiel 38:17-23 and 39:1-6). At that point the whole world will be thrown into a panic, and that atmosphere of hysteria will provide the perfect opportunity for the Antichrist to step forward with the "perfect" plan for peace in the Middle East.

The Meaning for the Church
Why should Gentiles in the Church of the 21st Century be concerned about what is happening among the Jewish people in the Middle East today? Why should we be following the events in that part of the world with bated breath? Why should we be concerned about the survival of Israel? Why should we be searching the Scriptures daily concerning prophecies about the Middle East? Why should we be praying daily for the peace of Jerusalem? There are three reasons.

The events in the Middle East are proof that God is faithful to His promises. God is fulfilling in detail promises that He made to the Jewish people 2,500 years ago. And as we see each of these promises fulfilled, we can likewise be assured that God is going to fulfill every promise He has made to the Church.

God has promised that one day soon, Jesus will appear in the heavens, the dead in Christ will be resurrected, the living believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the sky, and both the living and dead will be given new, glorified bodies. We will return to heaven with Jesus where we will be judged of our works to determine our degrees of reward. We will also celebrate our union with Jesus in a great feast that will symbolize the union of the Bride (the Church) with her Bridegroom (Jesus).

We will then return to earth with Jesus to see Him crowned as King of kings and Lord of lords. He will reign over all the world from Jerusalem. We will be scattered all over the world to assist Him in His reign, serving as mayors, governors, presidents, judges, and teachers. We will see the earth flooded with peace, righteousness, and justice -- as the waters cover the sea.

At the end of His reign, we will be transferred to the new Jerusalem He is preparing now. From that vantage point, we will watch as the earth is superheated with fire, and the pollution of Satan's last revolt is burned away. Out of that fiery inferno will come a new earth. We will then be lowered down to that new earth inside the new Jerusalem, and God Himself will descend to the new earth to live in our presence forever.

Those are the marvelous promises that have been made to what the Bible calls "overcomers" (Revelation 21: 1-7) -- that is, to those who have placed their faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior (1 John 5:1-5). As I witness God fulfilling His promises to the Jews, my hope soars concerning the promises God has made to the Church. I know He will fulfill every one of them.

The events in the Middle East are a testimony to God's unfathomable grace. Think about it for a moment - any god created by the mind of Man would have annihilated the Jews a long time ago. Only a God of grace would have put up with the Jews and continued to love them. Their own prophets refer to them as "stiff-necked," "stubborn," and "rebellious." Yet, despite their rejection of God as king of their nation, and their rejection of His Son as king of their hearts, God continues to love them and pursue them with the intention of bringing a great remnant to salvation. That's grace.

When I first started preaching about the Jews, my wife came to me and said, "When you emphasize how much God loves the Jews, you make me want to be a Jew." I made two points in response. First, I told her that she really didn't want to be a Jew because if she were one, the overwhelming odds are that she would have a spiritual veil over her eyes that would keep her from recognizing Jesus as her Messiah. Then I made an even more important point. I stated that God is not doing one thing for the Jews that He is not willing to do for everyone.

The Jews continue to this day to be witnesses of God. Their history shows what it means to have a relationship with God. When they are faithful, He blesses. When they are rebellious, He disciplines. When they repent, He forgives and forgets and starts blessing again. And so it is with any person or nation.

The Jews are currently under discipline. They have not yet repented, and they therefore do not deserve to be regathered to their homeland. They do not merit God's love and care. But neither do you or I. The only thing any of us deserve is death. We have hope only because our God is a God of grace.

The events in the Middle East are evidence that Jesus is returning soon. The Bible says that Jesus will return when the Jews are back in their homeland and their capital city. It also says that it will be a time when all the world has come together against Israel over the issue of the control of Jerusalem. The Jewish state was re-established on May 14, 1948. The Jews re-occupied the city of Jerusalem on June 7, 1967. Since 1991, all the world has been pressuring the Israeli government to surrender all or part of Jerusalem. The fulfillment of these prophecies makes it clear that we are on the threshold of the Tribulation. That means the Rapture of the Church is imminent. Jesus is at the very gates of Heaven, waiting for His Father's command to return. We are living on borrowed time.

MannyIsGod
08-01-2006, 02:43 PM
I stopped reading after the title.

ChumpDumper
08-01-2006, 02:50 PM
If God showed himself to one guy seven times to tell him Israel belonged to the Jews, you'd think he'd at least show up once to reconfirm that in the past 4000 years. Either God got lazy or Abraham was a pretty dense and had to bogart all the appearances to finally get the point.

gtownspur
08-01-2006, 04:21 PM
I stopped reading.

There, fixed it for you.

Extra Stout
08-01-2006, 05:01 PM
As a non-Dispensationalist, I must object to the notions that the article was the definitive Biblical perspective, and that all evangelical Christians believe it.

Crookshanks
08-01-2006, 05:18 PM
Without getting into deep theology and doctrine, would you mind telling me what parts you objected to? I would be interested in what and why. Thanks!

MannyIsGod
08-01-2006, 05:20 PM
There, fixed it for you.I'd post the same about you but you have to start in order to stop.

Crookshanks
08-01-2006, 05:35 PM
Manny - I'm disappointed that you wouldn't take the time to read even part of the article. There is a lot of information contained in it and lots of history regarding the Jews and Arabs and the things that have transpired to get them to the point where they are today.

Christians look at it from a biblical perspective, but the article could also be read from a purely historical perspective.

scott
08-01-2006, 06:16 PM
The Abrahamic Covenant establishes title to the land in the Middle East. That title belongs to the Jewish people forever -- with no ands, ifs, or buts.

This is about where I stopped reading.

Extra Stout
08-01-2006, 06:23 PM
Without getting into deep theology and doctrine, would you mind telling me what parts you objected to? I would be interested in what and why. Thanks!
I believe God's entire covenant with the Jews has been abrogated by the New Covenant. (Hebrews 8:6-13) The land covenant is obsolete. Believers instead have a claim in the New Jerusalem in heaven.

Amos 9:15 refers not to the return of the Jews to earthly Israel, but to the believer's stake in the New Jerusalem, and the assurance of that salvation, because just as nothing can separate believers from the love of God (Romans 8:39), neither can anything pluck believers from their plot in God's kingdom.

The eternal church, rather than the modern political state of Israel, is the fulfillment of all these prophecies about the restoration of Israel.

I do not understand Romans 11 as Dispensationalists do, to say that there will be a Gentile Church Age, followed by a mass Jewish repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Messiah, but rather to say that the church would be dominated by Gentiles (the fullness of the Gentiles) and yet have a small remnant of Jewish Christians, and that two together would form "all Israel."

Gentile Christians then are supposed to accord special respect to Jewish Christians.

In all the speculation about nuking Damascus, the Russian invasion, etc., I find nothing Biblical. It is all wild guessing based upon specious etymology from the Old Testament, Gog and Magog and Meshech and so forth.

Reagan's Dispensational statements I merely disagree with, but regard as coming from a legitimate school of theology. I object only to the insinuation that is the only school of theology. On the other hand, his statements about the Arab claim on Jerusalem deserve rebuke. They are misleading and unnecessary to the point of absurdity. The number of times the city is mentioned in the Qu'ran is completely irrelevant to the importance devout Muslims place upon the city. Muslims have seemingly dozens of holy cities, few of which have any mention in the Qu'ran or Hadith. To argue that because the Bible mentions it 677 times or whatever while the Qu'ran only alludes to it twice is tacitly to say that religious claims are the paramount reason that one group or another should hold the city. To a Jew, the argument that Jerusalem belongs to the Jews is a tautology, as it is to a Muslim that it belongs to the Muslims. People of secular persuasion would not give a flip what the respective holy books have to say on the subject.

gtownspur
08-01-2006, 07:35 PM
I'd post the same about you but you have to start in order to stop.


You spit out quips like a true diva. :lol

gtownspur
08-01-2006, 07:43 PM
I believe God's entire covenant with the Jews has been abrogated by the New Covenant. (Hebrews 8:6-13) The land covenant is obsolete. Believers instead have a claim in the New Jerusalem in heaven.

Amos 9:15 refers not to the return of the Jews to earthly Israel, but to the believer's stake in the New Jerusalem, and the assurance of that salvation, because just as nothing can separate believers from the love of God (Romans 8:39), neither can anything pluck believers from their plot in God's kingdom.

The eternal church, rather than the modern political state of Israel, is the fulfillment of all these prophecies about the restoration of Israel.

I do not understand Romans 11 as Dispensationalists do, to say that there will be a Gentile Church Age, followed by a mass Jewish repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Messiah, but rather to say that the church would be dominated by Gentiles (the fullness of the Gentiles) and yet have a small remnant of Jewish Christians, and that two together would form "all Israel."

Gentile Christians then are supposed to accord special respect to Jewish Christians.

In all the speculation about nuking Damascus, the Russian invasion, etc., I find nothing Biblical. It is all wild guessing based upon specious etymology from the Old Testament, Gog and Magog and Meshech and so forth.

Reagan's Dispensational statements I merely disagree with, but regard as coming from a legitimate school of theology. I object only to the insinuation that is the only school of theology. On the other hand, his statements about the Arab claim on Jerusalem deserve rebuke. They are misleading and unnecessary to the point of absurdity. The number of times the city is mentioned in the Qu'ran is completely irrelevant to the importance devout Muslims place upon the city. Muslims have seemingly dozens of holy cities, few of which have any mention in the Qu'ran or Hadith. To argue that because the Bible mentions it 677 times or whatever while the Qu'ran only alludes to it twice is tacitly to say that religious claims are the paramount reason that one group or another should hold the city. To a Jew, the argument that Jerusalem belongs to the Jews is a tautology, as it is to a Muslim that it belongs to the Muslims. People of secular persuasion would not give a flip what the respective holy books have to say on the subject.


Premillienialist dispensational theology lies with heresy for the simple fact that it claims that the gospel age will end and will usher in a new era of old testament temple relics of which jesus died on the cross to get rid of in the first place.


Gal chapter 4 is a good parable of two women Sarah and Hagar, one who is kept for the kingdom to come, and the other cast away. Sarah represents the church and Hagar the bond woman.

Later on in Revelation you see the same dual woman parable used again, one is the virgin who birthed the son of man, and the other the prostitute who rides on the beast.

IN the book of revelation the prostitutes robes resemble that of the temple preist in Jerusalem at that time, and the beast represented rome.

In revelations, the prostitute persecutes the virgin much like the jews and rome persecuted the church.

And if you look in the OT book of Isiah, there is a passage which describes Israel as a whore who had been unfaithful to Yahweh.

THe church is the fullfillment of the abrahimic covenant, and is an everlasting one.

The GOspel of Jesus christ is everlasting, and there will not be another to take it's place.

Crookshanks
08-01-2006, 07:53 PM
Thank you for sharing your views and beliefs. I guess we can just agree to disagree. When the rapture occurs and world events play out to their end - we'll then see who was right. Until then, I just hope that all of you will be ready. God Bless!

Interesting side note - if the rapture occurs soon, then these threads will be around for all those left behind to refer back to.

gtownspur
08-01-2006, 07:58 PM
Thank you for sharing your views and beliefs. I guess we can just agree to disagree. When the rapture occurs and world events play out to their end - we'll then see who was right. Until then, I just hope that all of you will be ready. God Bless!

Interesting side note - if the rapture occurs soon, then these threads will be around for all those left behind to refer back to.


THere is no rapture, there is only a ressurrection.

E20
08-01-2006, 08:10 PM
I wanna ask some of the well informed Christians here:

Who is Periqlytos?
I google/yahoo it, but I get info from other religons, I want some insight from Christians.

ShackO
08-01-2006, 10:44 PM
1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 :nope "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. :bang 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. 45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Extra Stout
08-01-2006, 10:47 PM
I wanna ask some of the well informed Christians here:

Who is Periqlytos?
I google/yahoo it, but I get info from other religons, I want some insight from Christians.
Periqlytos is a corruption of the Greek word "paracletos." "Paracletos" means counselor or helper, and is taken to refer to the Holy Spirit.

Muslims claim that the word is in fact "Periqlytos" and that it is the Greek translation of "Muhammad."

Extra Stout
08-01-2006, 10:48 PM
Thank you for sharing your views and beliefs. I guess we can just agree to disagree. When the rapture occurs and world events play out to their end - we'll then see who was right. Until then, I just hope that all of you will be ready. God Bless!

Interesting side note - if the rapture occurs soon, then these threads will be around for all those left behind to refer back to.
Well, since I'm not a dispensational premillenialist, I also don't believe in the rapture.

jochhejaam
08-01-2006, 11:21 PM
1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings.
<snip>
36 :nope "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. :bang
<snip>
51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

What's the relevance of this post?

Are you suggesting that the current hostilities are a sign that the end is near?

ShackO
08-01-2006, 11:24 PM
What are you stupid................ READ IT............

jochhejaam
08-01-2006, 11:27 PM
What are you stupid................ READ IT............
I read it and you had no commments in the post, just a couple of emoticons.

What was it you said to gtown about name calling? :lol

(I don't find your posts compelling so there's no real need to respond, especially with a garbage reply)

ShackO
08-01-2006, 11:31 PM
What ever…. The only thing obvious from your take is you have no idea WTF you are talking about… From you, the less said the better…………

You wanna play games so lets play…………

When you figure out the meaning as it pertains to the topic please feel free to reply… Till then STFU……….

Oh and have a great evening and sleep well.......

jochhejaam
08-01-2006, 11:34 PM
What ever…. The only thing obvious from your take is you have no idea WTF you are talking about… From you, the less said the better…………

You wanna play games so lets play…………

When you figure out the meaning as it pertains to the topic please feel free to reply… Till then STFU……….

Oh and have a great evening and sleep well.......
I figured it out, you're schizophrenic.

Extra Stout
08-01-2006, 11:36 PM
I figured it out, you're schizophrenic.
He highlighted the verse about nobody knowing when Jesus was coming back, not even Jesus. One could infer that he was expressing disapproval of David Reagan's rapture "timetable."

ShackO
08-01-2006, 11:39 PM
And I figured you out. You’re a fuxing idiot…….You think you impress anyone with your pretense………… Your just another AOL reject looking for acceptance……..

AGAIN……………………Why not state you own take Mr. Simpleton, not just your two lines of questions………….. Lay it out……………

:monkey :violin

ShackO
08-01-2006, 11:40 PM
He highlighted the verse about nobody knowing when Jesus was coming back, not even Jesus. One could infer that he was expressing disapproval of David Reagan's rapture "timetable."
:madrun Stop giving him hints..............lol

He has never even read the book..................

Nbadan
08-02-2006, 02:23 AM
:madrun Stop giving him hints..............lol

He has never even read the book..................

Nice stuff you've been donating to the forum lately ShackO, remember that even for GTown and his consistently latent homosexual posts, there is a unwritten rule of behavior decorum in the forum that we treat everyone the way we would like to be treated, even those with opinions which disgust us. I don’t think Joch was totally out of line, but sometimes we automatically assume that everyone ‘gets’ the meaning we are trying to convey in certain posts.

ShackO
08-02-2006, 09:20 AM
Thnx for the heads up........... It was about the third or fourth time.... So IMO a little adjustment was needed..............

He seemed to have forgotten to reply........ Perhaps he is studying the bible now in order to respond so it wa not all for not.............lol

jochhejaam
08-02-2006, 10:00 AM
So IMO a little adjustment was needed..............

He seemed to have forgotten to reply
You had a total meltdown...in an internet forum... :lol

ShackO
08-02-2006, 08:03 PM
Well did yo read the bible and find the answer yet..................lol

Guru of Nothing
08-02-2006, 08:43 PM
Dear God, I pray, please don't read this thread. [/brownnose]

Nbadan
08-03-2006, 03:23 AM
But again, the crucial point to keep in mind is that the Jews did not lose their title to the land. They lost only their use and enjoyment of it, as a punishment for their disobedience. To this day, the Jews have remained under discipline. They may be back in a portion of their land, but their enjoyment of it is being deterred by constant Arab attacks.

Since the Jews wrote the bible isn't this like writing your own permenant land deed? Why didn't the American Indians think of this? All they had to do was get it on paper.

BIG IRISH
08-03-2006, 04:38 AM
Since the Jews wrote the bible isn't this like writing your own permenant land deed? Why didn't the American Indians think of this? All they had to do was get it on paper.


Boy am I waiting for an answer :blah :blah :blah

and Dan, depends on Which Version of the Bible
King James Version anyone: LOL
:angel

And speaking of Indian's did they give out visia's to all of us "Americans"

Nbadan
08-03-2006, 04:53 AM
I guess my real point is that when the Spaniards came to the Americas whether it was the American Indians or the Aztecs, the Spaniards and the Europeans spread Christianity in the Americas through the blade of their swords as much as the sermon in their good book.

BIG IRISH
08-03-2006, 05:03 AM
I guess my real point is that when the Spaniards came to the Americas whether it was the American Indians or the Aztecs, the Spaniards and the Europeans spread Christianity in the Americas through the blade of their swords as much as the sermon in their good book.


:tu
Some Spaniards, along with others, spread Christianity in Europe, the same way.

Religion and Wars, how many time have they slept in the same Bed, and than
put land in the bedroom........

Now were talking

"Sarcasm"

Crookshanks
08-03-2006, 09:26 AM
Since the Jews wrote the bible isn't this like writing your own permenant land deed?

The bible is the inspired word of God - he told the men what to write. And since God is the one who created the world and gave the Jews the land in the first place, then I guess he gets to make the rules! Anyway, I don't want to start another argument - the validity of the bible was thoroughly discussed in another thread some time ago.

boutons_
08-03-2006, 09:56 AM
Crookshanks, how old are you, biologically?

Crookshanks
08-03-2006, 01:40 PM
Crookshanks, how old are you, biologically?

I am a 47-year old college-educated female. Mother of 4 great kids and grandmother to two absolutely wonderful children.

I was raised in a christian home and have been a born-again christian since I was nine years old. I have always been a conservative and have never voted anything other than Republican (except for Phil Hardberger, because he was the lesser to two evils).

There, does that give you enough ammunition to criticize and belittle me and my beliefs?

BIG IRISH
08-04-2006, 12:48 AM
I stopped reading after the title.

That is why you will never learn a mucking thing.

I'm not even going to waste my time trying to convince you that GOD
does exists.

LEARN, READ EVERTHING, Even if you don't like the Title or the cover of the book.
You have an advantage, you can read a "History Book" written in a different language and not written/published in America.


DAM I hate people that waste thier life by being young. Yes I've been there and done that.

Case in point, from the article.

The Choice of War
Please note carefully that the Arabs could have peacefully and legally established a second Palestinian state in 1948. They chose war instead, because they were unwilling to tolerate a Jewish state in the Middle East -- even a minuscule one of only 5,000 square miles.

BTW Manual, what is the difference between a JEW, ARAB, and a Persian?

oooops I think I need a Drink, after all I'm just an OLD IRISH TROLL :drunk

ShackO
08-04-2006, 01:54 PM
The bible is the inspired word of God - he told the men what to write. And since God is the one who created the world and gave the Jews the land in the first place, then I guess he gets to make the rules! Anyway, I don't want to start another argument - the validity of the bible was thoroughly discussed in another thread some time ago.


AND THEN SOME MEN SET ABOUT TELLING EVERYONE ELSE WHAT TO BLEIVE AND THINK... FOR SOME REASON THE SAME GOD OF THE JEWS AND MUSLIMS ARE GETTING A DIFFERENT MESSAGE HERE... I READ THE BOOK AND I SEE WERE THE LAND WAS TAKEN FROM THEM..... WHAT PAGE IS IT WRITTEN ON THAT HE GAVE IT BACK TO THEM???



The bible is not intended to clarify many of these issues people purport to get out of reading it……. If you believe God created the universe and is responsible for writing the book I would think if he wanted to tell Muslims and Jews, Protestants and Catholics to kill each other he could have made it a little clearer…..

It is not the book, or God, but the fools who are reading it that come up with this shit…. They merely project their own perversions and idiocies onto it……..

Kinda like the inkblot test………….. It merely reflects that which is already there..


Lots of God’s prophesies in this I bet………

http://i.uk.tickle.com/uk/test/inkblot/inkblot04.jpg


Hagge and all these fools going around talking about the end times…. Hell ppl been doing that for two thousand years and this fool has brought nothing new to the table…….

As I said earlier in the thread……..

The day and the hour no one knows but the father…. Unless these idiots are the father you can be assured of one thing… EVERY DAMN ONE OF THEM IN WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Crookshanks
08-04-2006, 03:41 PM
Hagee is not setting a date and time. He's just saying that the Bible gives us the signs to watch for. Jesus said that when we see these things come to pass, that we will know the time is at hand for Jesus return.

He likened it to birth pains. When a woman goes into labor, she, and everyone else, knows that the birth is imminent. However, no one knows for certain what time the baby will be born. Some women have the baby quickly, while others may take a day or two. But, the bottom line is, THE BABY IS COMING!

ShackO
08-04-2006, 06:33 PM
Well to be honest I am not intimately familiar with what he teaches.. He is the only one that I knew of off the top that teaches this…….

I guess you are a follower of his???

Of course he does not set a date…….. It is the perpetual last days… Hell, the JW’s have been running that “last days” crap for going on a hundred years now…

You would be hard pressed to find a time in history when there weren’t those calling this “the time” etc…
So have you changed your ways knowing that the end is near???

Although I am not up to date on the latest “theories”, I have read many Pre-post-Mid trib theories and they all raise great points and point out the flaws in the other “theories”….

Oh and the birth pangs and other such terms are meaningless and clarify nothing, they are set forth merely to tweak interest in order to sell his books..

ShackO
08-04-2006, 09:30 PM
I guess my real point is that when the Spaniards came to the Americas whether it was the American Indians or the Aztecs, the Spaniards and the Europeans spread Christianity in the Americas through the blade of their swords as much as the sermon in their good book.

I think there were some that were truly interested in the "souls" of the "savages" but certainly not the majority of the ppl that came to the “new world”……. The royal "crowns" of Britain, France, Spain were looking for the money, the natives were threats and nuisance and were dealt with treachery and butchery……

Terms such as genocide and ethnic cleansing don’t seem to do justice to what they did to them…………..Not to mention what continues right up to this very day here and in south and central America …………….

PixelPusher
08-04-2006, 10:31 PM
Yep, Jesus is on his way. 'Cause it's not like there have ever been natural disasters, wars and all manner of human suffering in any other time in history that would cause people to think the end times were nigh.

ShackO
08-07-2006, 12:15 AM
Yep, Jesus is on his way. 'Cause it's not like there have ever been natural disasters, wars and all manner of human suffering in any other time in history that would cause people to think the end times were nigh.


Nice Vladie sig................lol
Maybe on Monday I should call my insurance company and find out if I can add earthquake and the tribulation to my policy……. Hey sooner or later they gotta be right…. :lol :lol :spin

Nbadan
08-07-2006, 01:54 AM
Anyway, the incredible part of all this is that rich people listen to Hagee both live and over the radio and on TV by the thousands, and they buy his books and his apocolypic videos. These people need to ask themselves, if Hagee is so sure that the rapture is immenent, then why isn't he just giving his gear away?

Anyway, Hagee is the worst kind of snake-oil salesmen because he uses religion to push blanket intolerance against a certain race - Muslims. In Hagee world, Muslims are the militant aggressors pushing their Islamofachism because they dare resist foreign occupation. Who would have guessed? Hagee would prefer that we nuke the whole area and start over again with some good Christians and Jews.

ShackO
08-07-2006, 01:45 PM
Anyway, the incredible part of all this is that rich people listen to Hagee both live and over the radio and on TV by the thousands, and they buy his books and his apocolypic videos. These people need to ask themselves, if Hagee is so sure that the rapture is immenent, then why isn't he just giving his gear away?

Anyway, Hagee is the worst kind of snake-oil salesmen because he uses religion to push blanket intolerance against a certain race - Muslims. In Hagee world, Muslims are the militant aggressors pushing their Islamofachism because they dare resist foreign occupation. Who would have guessed? Hagee would prefer that we nuke the whole area and start over again with some good Christians and Jews.

LOL…………… Why now of course, cause if you ain’t wealthy it is cause you a sinnA’…..




I guess they figure when they need to know that Hagee will tell them…… :rolleyes

Muslims are not a race……. And there are many Arab Christians living in the Middle East including Lebanon and Israel/Palestine… Does honest john even know they are there???