Top Point Guards

[mabber]

By Aaron Bronsteter

A basketball team without a point guard is like an airplane without a pilot. Someone needs to get the plane up in the air, just like someone needs to lead the break up the court. While the world’s best airplane pilots are anyone’s guess, we have statistics, highlight reels and All-NBA Teams to prove who the best point guards are in the NBA.

10) Sam Cassell – Los Angeles Clippers

Players get older, they start to break down and they become a shell of their former self at around age 35, but don’t tell Sam Cassell that, because at almost 37 years of age, his 17.2 points-per-game and 6.3 assists-per-game will beg to differ.

Cassell did what no other point guard had done in 30 years; pilot the Clippers beyond the first round of the playoffs. Trading Marko Jaric for Cassell may be one of the most lopsided trades in a very long time.

The Clippers have so much faith in their elder statesman that they re-signed him for an additional two years in hopes that the Clippers can stay out of the NBA Lottery.

Choosing between Cassell and Baron Davis was a tough decision, but if we’re talking about who I would want on my team right now, with health and attitude questions in the mix, I’d take Cassell for this coming year.

9) Kirk Hinrich – Chicago Bulls

Statistically, Kirk Hinrich does not rank above Cassell, but unfortunately, the intangibles that Hinrich brings to his team cannot be measured numerically.

Hinrich is a force on both ends of the floor and averaged 6.4 assists-per-game despite often manning the shooting guard spot when playing alongside Chris Duhon. Bulls coach Scott Skiles once called Hinrich the team’s best player and don’t think that he didn’t mean it.

The Bulls had a great offseason by landing Ben Wallace in free agency and drafting Tyrus Thomas and Swiss stud Thabo Sefolosha. But don’t for a second think that this team’s success is not contingent on the play of Hinrich, because you will only be fooling yourself.

8) Mike Bibby – Sacramento Kings

The Kings had a reformation year in 2005-2006, but someone forgot to tell Mike Bibby who averaged a career high 21.1 points-per-game; the first time that he had broken the 20 point barrier.

With the unpredictability of Ron Artest, this team will look to Bibby for leadership and he will be expected to provide it. With Peja Stojakovic and Chris Webber being sent off, it is clear that Kings management is looking to Bibby as its franchise player.

Even with the team being restructured, they were still able to make the playoffs and challenge the Spurs, but this team will only go as far as Bibby takes them.

7) Jason Kidd – New Jersey Nets

Who would have ever thought that they would see Jason Kidd as number seven on a list of the league’s top point guards? But let’s face the facts, Kidd has slowed down at age 33. But even with his slowing down, Kidd is still a dynamic player who hooks his players up whenever he has the opportunity and is a true leader on the floor.

The next two years will define how Kidd is remembered, as he has a stellar supporting cast consisting of Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson in the league’s most superstar-laden backcourt.

With nine triple doubles this past season, Kidd remains the same threat that he always has. But after missing his first all-star game in a long while, Kidd’s career is showing signs of definite wear and tear.

6) Chris Paul – New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets

In his first NBA season, Chris Paul proved that he was the real deal after he fell to fourth pick in the NBA Draft and was selected one pick behind a point guard that will aspire to one day be as good as Paul was in his rookie season.

If Paul keeps it up, there is no doubt that he will be an all-star next year. In fact, there’s no way that he should have been left off of the team this past year after single-handedly making the rebuilding Hornets a consistent playoff threat in the stacked Western Conference all season long.

With the additions of Peja Stojakovic and Tyson Chandler, Paul will have a lot more to work with in the coming season, but there is absolutely no doubt that Paul has the potential to be the league’s best point guard in a few years from now.

5) Gilbert Arenas – Washington Wizards

At the rate that Gilbert Arenas improves year after year, he’s bound to burst into flames in a few years. This past year, Arenas stepped up his scoring game from 25.5 points-per-game, his previous career best, to 29.3 points-per-game.

While Arenas was unable to lead the Wizards past LeBron and the Cavaliers in the playoffs, he showed why he was All-NBA Third Team calibre with his ability to score on absolutely anybody. Arenas also showed that he was the real deal in the post-season, averaging 34 points-per-game during the team’s series with the Cavs.

All of this comes from a player who was drafted in the second round of the NBA draft.

4) Tony Parker – San Antonio Spurs

When you look at field goal percentage, one would expect that big men have a huge advantage over guards and that is usually the case. This year’s top-two players in terms of field goal percentage are Shaquille O’Neal and Eddy Curry, one of whom is over 300 pounds and the other is close. But who is the player with the third highest field goal percentage? The answer is Tony Parker. In fact, for much of the season, Parker lead the league in points in the paint, a statistic usually reserved for big centers to show that they can dominate inside.

On the topic of field goal percentage, if you only look at point guards, the only two names who register at above fifty per cent from the field: Parker (54.8%) and Nash (51.2%). If you exclude Nash from this list (which would be ludicrous), Parker’s percentage is more than ten per cent higher than any other point guard.

Parker’s ability to score baskets in the paint show how unique he is compared to any other point guard in NBA history. At 6’2” and 177 pounds, Parker weaves his way through opposing defenders like a NASCAR driver would be able to weave an economy vehicle through pylons. If that’s not enough to convince you that Parker is a top-5 point guard, he also managed to lead his team to the best record in a stacked Western Conference.

3) Allen Iverson – Philadelphia 76ers

Every year people say that Iverson will slow down and decline and every year he proves them wrong. This past season was no exception as Iverson posted averages of 33 points-per-game (second highest in the NBA) paired with 7.4 assists-per-game.

Despite rumors of being dealt in the offseason, Iverson is still the franchise player for the 76ers and general manager Billy King has declared “The Answer” to be off the market.

The 76ers failed to make the playoffs this past year and with few offseason moves, the same fate appears to await them once again unless King can muster some sort of miracle that actually puts quality players around Iverson. Either way, Iverson continues to remain in his prime, entering the 2006-2007 season at age 31 with no signs of slowing down.

2) Chauncey Billups – Detroit Pistons

Chauncey Billups or “Mr. Big Shot” had a breakout season at age 29 during his tenth NBA season. Billups shattered his previous points-per-game record with 18.5 points-per-game (previously 16.9 ppg) and 8.6 assists-per-game (previously 5.8 apg).

Billups was an early contender for the MVP award as he lead the Pistons to their best record in franchise history and head-to-head with Steve Nash statistically, he comes very close.

For Billups to be able to improve his statistics to such an extent, while keeping the rest of his team’s on par is a great feat for any point guard to accomplish.

1) Steve Nash – Phoenix Suns

Overrated or simply underappreciated? For the past two years, sceptics have denied Steve Nash of MVP legitimacy, saying that there are better choices out there. After 2004-2005, few could muster superior candidates for the award, but with LeBron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Billups and Arenas having breakout years in 2005-2006, Nash’s back-to-back win was highly contentious.

But here is some food for thought: career highs in points-per-game, field goal and free throw percentage, minutes-per-game and rebounds-per-game and only eight fewer wins than the previous year when they had a healthy Amare Stoudemire for 80 games rather than three. Oh and one more thing, Nash is 32 years of age.

The voters have spoken and while many can contend whether or not Nash is the best player in the league, I doubt that anyone in their right mind will argue that he is not currently the league’s finest point guard.

Just missed the cut: Baron Davis (Golden State Warriors ), Jason Terry (Dallas Mavericks ), Stephon Marbury (New York Knicks )

Names for the future: Raymond Felton (Charlotte Bobcats ), T.J. Ford (Toronto Raptors ), Luke Ridnour (Seattle Sonics), Randy Foye (Minnesota Timberwolves )

[1Parker1]

Ok list...although I think as far as PG's go, Chris Paul>Arenas. Arenas plays more like a SG anyways.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Ok list...although I think as far as PG's go, Chris Paul>Arenas. Arenas plays more like a SG anyways.

I completely agree.

[Vinnie_Johnson]

What no payton or Williams Red Lion must be in tears. :lol

[NBA Junkie]

Surprised to see Jason Kidd fall down to #7.

Of course, it's a "what have you done for me lately" type of ranking as opposed to one that's done from a historical standpoint.

[mabber]

Ok list...although I think as far as PG's go, Chris Paul>Arenas. Arenas plays more like a SG anyways.

I never even considered Arenas a PG in the first place.

[ShoogarBear]

Parker (54.8%)
Look at that again.

If Parker finally develops a decent jump shot, and Manu and Tim are both healthy, I don't give a shit who the Mavs picked up.

[Eva Longoria]

:madrun WHAT??!! TONY SHOULD BE #1!!!! :madrun

[1Parker1]

:lmao @ the Eva Longoria screenname. I'm surprised no one thought of it sooner...

[JamStone]

Here's how I would rank them:

1. Steve Nash (lack of defense not enough to rank him lower)
2. Allen Iverson
3. Chauncey Billups
4. Chris Paul (I suspect he'll be an all star this year)
5. Jason Kidd (still a top 5 PG)
6. Sam Cassell (can still do his thing, and probably the toughest PG after Iverson on this list)
7. Tony Parker
8. Gilbert Arenas (true, he's a combo guard, but he still runs the offense and does most of the ball handling for the Wizards)
9. Mike James bitch (people still don't give him enough credit)
10. Mike Bibby


Just missed/borderline: Stephon Marbury (very strong case for him being a top 10, but despite his stats, he just doesn't help his team win), Kirk Hinrich (could make an argument for top 10), Baron Davis (top 5 talent, but not top 10 due to injury and weight issues), Jason Terry

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

yeh lets put trash before Andre Miller :drunk

this listing is crap :smokin

[G-Money]

a pretty good list. I would rather have Chauncey be 1st but Steve Nash also deserves 1st in my book. Both are close to each other too. I think next year Chauncey can be better then Nash.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

oh, and when i say 'trash', i am referring to Marbury :lol

[JamStone]

Uh, sorry to be the one to inform you, but Stephon Marbury is a better point guard than Andre Miller. And, it's not even close really.

You can hate on Marbury. You can think he's selfish. You can call him a loser. But, he's still a better point guard than Andre Miller.

[NBA Junkie]

9. Mike James bitch (people still don't give him enough credit

He plays with the mentality of a 2-guard. I can't really see him as a top 10 point guard considering he's had a vagabond type career thus far. I would have been more impressedif the 20 points/gm he averaged in '05-'06 had been with a better team than Toronto. Somebody has to score on a bad team.

I agree with you on Marbury. He and KG would have tore it up in Minny if not for his immaturity and petty jealousy of playing in Garnett's shadow.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Uh, sorry to be the one to inform you, but Stephon Marbury is a better point guard than Andre Miller. And, it's not even close really.

You can hate on Marbury. You can think he's selfish. You can call him a loser. But, he's still a better point guard than Andre Miller.


:lol sure he is :rolleyes

[mabber]

Uh, sorry to be the one to inform you, but Stephon Marbury is a better point guard than Andre Miller. And, it's not even close really.

You can hate on Marbury. You can think he's selfish. You can call him a loser. But, he's still a better point guard than Andre Miller.

Yeah, I'd take Marbury over Miller any day.

[mavsfan1000]

My top list.
1. Nash
2. Billups
3. Iverson
4. Parker
5. Chris Paul
6. Jason Kidd
7. Kirk Hinrich
8. Jason Terry
9. Sam Cassell
10. Gilbert Arenas (Though more of a shooting guard)

[Pistons < Spurs]

Yeah, I'd take Marbury over Miller any day.


Me too ... as would everybody ... who's not a Denver fan that is. :lol

[DirkAB]

Me too ... as would everybody ... who's not a Denver fan that is. :lol


Bullshit, Marbury sucks and Miller is a very good playmaker. Anybody that would take Marbury over Miller must enjoy rooting for a loser of a team and huge ballhog running the team, fuck Marbury and his little ballhog mentality. He fucking sucks.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Bullshit, Marbury sucks and Miller is a very good playmaker. Anybody that would take Marbury over Miller must enjoy rooting for a loser of a team and huge ballhog running the team, fuck Marbury and his little ballhog mentality. He fucking sucks.

exactly. At least someone else on this board sees what a joke marbury is :smokin

[JamStone]

It's about the team. 99% of the time, it's about the team. It takes a very rare and special player like a Michael Jordan or Shaquille O'Neal or LeBron James or Tim Duncan to be the one true reason for team success.

Look at Andre Miller with the LA Clippers in 2002-03, on an extremely talented team with the likes of Elton Brand, Lamar Odom, Corey Maggette, Quentin Richardson, Michael Olowokandi. After being the league leader in assists the year before, Andre Miller led that very talented Clippers team to 27 wins.

Now, I could agree that Stephon Marbury has been a loser for most of his career. I can agree that he has demonstrated a bad attitude many times throughout his career. But, just because Andre Miller has a better attitude and is more consistently a more pure point guard, that doesn't mean Miller is better.

Marbury has more talent, has more athleticism, has more explosiveness, is stronger, and is more of a difference maker.

Stephon Marbury has averaged 20 ppg and 8 apg FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER. There are so few players that have done that, it's not even funny.

For all the problems Marbury seems to have, his talent is undeniable. And, while you hang on an Andre Miller testicle, you are left blind to see reality.

Andre Miller is a solid point guard, probably a top 15 point guard in the league. And, I would not go crazy if someone considered him a top 10 point guard. But, he is not a better point guard than Stephon Marbury. He just isn't.

[Obstructed_View]

Never has 20 points and 8 assists a game been so monumentally inconseqential.

[JamStone]

He plays with the mentality of a 2-guard. I can't really see him as a top 10 point guard considering he's had a vagabond type career thus far. I would have been more impressedif the 20 points/gm he averaged in '05-'06 had been with a better team than Toronto. Somebody has to score on a bad team.

I agree with you on Marbury. He and KG would have tore it up in Minny if not for his immaturity and petty jealousy of playing in Garnett's shadow.


Mike James definitely plays with the mentality of a 2-guard. But, that is today's NBA point guard. Look at some of the best point guards in the league, even on the list, and they are scorers, like Allen Iverson, Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Gilbert Arenas. Even a few lead guards who have dropped in ranks like Steve Francis and Baron Davis are combo guards. That's today's NBA. That's why Randy Foye was so coveted in this past draft.

And, vagabond players sometimes turn out to be the real deal. They just took a different route or take longer to find their niche. Look at Chauncey Billups. He went from high lottery pick to journeyman to Finals MVP.

And, actually averaging 20 ppg on a bad team is rather impressive to me, especially for a player who isn't considered an elite player, much less a franchise player. If you look at other lottery teams, several of them did not even have a 20 ppg scorer. Usually, bad teams have players that play for themselves since the team isn't winning ...

Knicks - no 20-point scorer
Blazers - no 20-point scorer
Magic - no 20-point scorer
Bobcats - no 20-point scorer
Hawks - one 20-point scorer (Joe Johnson)
Raptors - two 20-point scorers (Chris Bosh, Mike James)

Joe Johnson and Chris Bosh are considered the "stars" of their respective teams. You said it yourself, Mike James is a vagabond. For James to average 20 ppg on a team with players playing for their own stats and own contracts, it's actually impressive.

Every team he plays for, he helps them and makes them better. He may be a selfish chucker at times, but he plays at both ends of the floor.

I think he's been underestimated for a long time. Obviously, seeing up close every night for half a season and an entire playoff run, I can appreciate the things he brings a little more than the next guy. But, I really do believe he is a top 10 caliber point guard. Now, I wouldn't disagree with a person who didn't believe that. That's just my opinion.

[JamStone]

Never has 20 points and 8 assists a game been so monumentally inconseqential.


Magic did not put up a career 20 and 8. Neither did Walt Frazier or Jerry West or Isiah Thomas or Bob Cousy or Tiny Archibald.

As far as I know, only Oscar Robertson put up 20 and 8. Right now after a 10 year career, Stephon Marbury is averaging 20 ppg and 8 apg.

Never has it been so monumentally inconsequential ... yeah, but there was only one other time, as far as I know.

Hey, listen. I don't even like Stephon Marbury. I don't like him as a player very much at all. But, you got to give it up to him when it comes down to his talent.

[ShoogarBear]

Stephon Marbury is the Derrick Coleman of guards.

[resistanze]

I'm pretty sure Magic averaged 20/11.

Anyways, Marbury is a more talented player than Miller, but I'd probably take Andre over "Starbury." I mean I can't ever imagine Marbury winning anything unless in his late 30s he's starts hanging off the nuts of a young superstar.

[mabber]

I'm pretty sure Magic averaged 20/11.

Anyways, Marbury is a more talented player than Miller, but I'd probably take Andre over "Starbury." I mean I can't ever imagine Marbury winning anything unless in his late 30s he's starts hanging off the nuts of a young superstar.

I'd take a lot of players over Marbury, but not Miller and I believe that was the comparison. WTF has Miller ever done? He's much less talented than Marbury and he's on teams that either don't make the playoffs or lose in the 1st round. So basically, it comes down to talent alone. Bottom line, I wouldn't want either of them as my point but would take Marbury over Miller if I had to choose.

[1Parker1]

:lol The argument is moot. I wouldn't want neither Andre nor Marbury on my team. Andre is good, but he's not exactly the kind of "PG" who who makes a great impact on his team, like the other PG's on that list. Marbury on the other hand is a proven loser. His attitude affects his game way too much.

[DarkReign]

I'm pretty sure Magic averaged 20/11.

Anyways, Marbury is a more talented player than Miller, but I'd probably take Andre over "Starbury." I mean I can't ever imagine Marbury winning anything unless in his late 30s he's starts hanging off the nuts of a young superstar.

You have incurred the wrath of JamStone. Prepare yourself to be inundated with stats and comparison.

[NBA Junkie]

And, vagabond players sometimes turn out to be the real deal. They just took a different route or take longer to find their niche. Look at Chauncey Billups. He went from high lottery pick to journeyman to Finals MVP... but, I really do believe he is a top 10 caliber point guard. Now, I wouldn't disagree with a person who didn't believe that. That's just my opinion.

I'm very familiar with Chauncey Billups as he played a couple years in Minnesota. Many say that he finally found a home in Detroit. He actually found a home here as well. I could make a case that his improved play in Minnesota is what allowed his career to take off as he had a solid 2001-02 campaign after he replaced Terrell Brandon at mid-season. He probably would have stayed in Minnesota had Brandon's injury situation not been up in the air that following off-season.

I hope you're right about James as he's now a Timberwolve. The main things that scare me are his age (31) and that he put up career numbers in a contract year. Many NBA players usually reach their peak at about 28-32 years of age so Mike James' window will close in the next couple seasons. And, that is why Houston, Dallas and Miami were not willing to offer him nothing more than 3 guaranteed years. The Wolves offered him a 4 year deal with a player option for year #4 (which he'll undoubtedly accept) and a 15% trade kicker raise if he's traded. It's definitely a steep price to pay, but that just shows you how desperate Kevin McHale was to land this guy. One thing in James' favor is his confidence, and, that, to me, is a good thing.

[mabber]

I'm very familiar with Chauncey Billups as he played a couple years in Minnesota. Many say that he finally found a home in Detroit. He actually found a home here as well. I could make a case that his improved play in Minnesota is what allowed his career to take off as he had a solid 2001-02 campaign after he replaced Terrell Brandon at mid-season. He probably would have stayed in Minnesota had Brandon's injury situation not been up in the air that following off-season.

I hope you're right about James as he's now a Timberwolve. The main things that scare me are his age (31) and that he put up career numbers in a contract year. Many NBA players usually reach their peak at about 28-32 years of age so Mike James' window will close in the next couple seasons. And, that is why Houston, Dallas and Miami were not willing to offer him nothing more than 3 guaranteed years. The Wolves offered him a 4 year deal with a player option for year #4 (which he'll undoubtedly accept) and a 15% trade kicker raise if he's traded. It's definitely a steep price to pay, but that just shows you how desperate Kevin McHale was to land this guy. One thing in James' favor is his confidence, and, that, to me, is a good thing.

I was always really impressed with Billups when he was in Minnesota. When the Mavs played the T-Wolves in 2 consecutive years in the 1st round of the playoffs, Billups played really well in those series. He really outplayed Nash in both those series IMO. The Mavs ended up winning both series but it wasn't from slowing down Billups.

[NBA Junkie]

I was always really impressed with Billups when he was in Minnesota. When the Mavs played the T-Wolves in 2 consecutive years in the 1st round of the playoffs, Billups played really well in those series. He really outplayed Nash in both those series IMO. The Mavs ended up winning both series but it wasn't from slowing down Billups.

Yeah, you're right. Billups always seemed to play Dallas very well. One of his games that stood out was a regular season game in Dallas in '02 when he scored 24 of his his 36 points in the 3rd quarter of a 117-100 win in Dallas. What's more impressive about that game was that Kevin Garnett missed that game due to a death in the family.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=2001&b=20020219&tm=DAL

[JamStone]

I'm pretty sure Magic averaged 20/11.



You have incurred the wrath of JamStone. Prepare yourself to be inundated with stats and comparison.



Unnecessary. The stats refute him themselves.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

While close, Magic averaged 19.5 ppg, 11.2 apg.

I know it's splitting hairs, but when you're talking about historic marks, 19.5 is still 19.5 and not 20.0 ppg. That's why what Marbury has done is special. Now, it could very well be the case that by the time Marbury retires that he no longer is above 20.0 ppg or 8.0 apg, but over his 10 year career, currently, it's still something to marvel.

[JamStone]

Stephon Marbury is the Derrick Coleman of guards.


Stephon Marbury is a drug abuser?

[DirkAB]

Magic did not put up a career 20 and 8. Neither did Walt Frazier or Jerry West or Isiah Thomas or Bob Cousy or Tiny Archibald.

As far as I know, only Oscar Robertson put up 20 and 8. Right now after a 10 year career, Stephon Marbury is averaging 20 ppg and 8 apg.

Never has it been so monumentally inconsequential ... yeah, but there was only one other time, as far as I know.

Hey, listen. I don't even like Stephon Marbury. I don't like him as a player very much at all. But, you got to give it up to him when it comes down to his talent.


Anybody that tries to compare Marbury to Magic doesn't have a clue. Are you shitting me? Magic, Oscar Robertson, Archibald, Zeke, Jerry West, Cousy, and Walt Frazier!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To try and put him in that group is asinine. I don't give a fuck what numbers he has put up, he sucks because he makes every team he's ever played on worse. The only team he has ever improved is a fantasy team, numbers don't mean shit when they do nothing to improve a team.

Obstructed View couldn't have been more right, never has 20 points and 8 assists a game been so monumentally inconseqential. That is as dead on the money as it gets, his stats contribute nothing to his team. He may be the worst team player in the league and it is only magnified because he plays the PG position; the position that is supposed to be all about unselfishness is being played by the embodiment of selfish. Stats mean shit when you make your team worse, he belongs coming off the bench as a 6th man combo guard.

[1Parker1]

Stephon Marbury is a drug abuser?

Well he did proclaim that he "was the best point guard in the league" so he must be on something... :smokin

[himat]

Anybody that tries to compare Marbury to Magic doesn't have a clue. Are you shitting me? Magic, Oscar Robertson, Archibald, Zeke, Jerry West, Cousy, and Walt Frazier!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To try and put him in that group is asinine. I don't give a fuck what numbers he has put up, he sucks because he makes every team he's ever played on worse. The only team he has ever improved is a fantasy team, numbers don't mean shit when they do nothing to improve a team.

Obstructed View couldn't have been more right, never has 20 points and 8 assists a game been so monumentally inconseqential. That is as dead on the money as it gets, his stats contribute nothing to his team. He may be the worst team player in the league and it is only magnified because he plays the PG position; the position that is supposed to be all about unselfishness is being played by the embodiment of selfish. Stats mean shit when you make your team worse, he belongs coming off the bench as a 6th man combo guard.

Chill out man all he is saying is Marbury is better than Andre Miller.

[ShoogarBear]

Stephon Marbury is a drug abuser?
Like Coleman, he's arguably the most talented person in the league at his position, and also like Coleman, he has no idea how to do anything other than generate his own stats.

Steph does have more enthsiasm for the game.

[NBA Junkie]

Steph does have more enthsiasm for the game.

If you mean enthusiasm as in bickering to the media about coaches and teammates, then yeah, I agree.

[Bruno]

I disagree with some points of this article but Ridnour (and not a player like Deron Williams) as a neme for the future is a joke.

[ShoogarBear]

If you mean enthusiasm as in bickering to the media about coaches and teammates, then yeah, I agree.
Steph wants to play. You couldn't always say the same about Coleman.

[JamStone]

Anybody that tries to compare Marbury to Magic doesn't have a clue. Are you shitting me? Magic, Oscar Robertson, Archibald, Zeke, Jerry West, Cousy, and Walt Frazier!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To try and put him in that group is asinine. I don't give a fuck what numbers he has put up, he sucks because he makes every team he's ever played on worse. The only team he has ever improved is a fantasy team, numbers don't mean shit when they do nothing to improve a team.

Obstructed View couldn't have been more right, never has 20 points and 8 assists a game been so monumentally inconseqential. That is as dead on the money as it gets, his stats contribute nothing to his team. He may be the worst team player in the league and it is only magnified because he plays the PG position; the position that is supposed to be all about unselfishness is being played by the embodiment of selfish. Stats mean shit when you make your team worse, he belongs coming off the bench as a 6th man combo guard.



You are incapable of understanding or following an argument.

I am not comparing Stephon Marbury to any of those players. I only mention them because they are all time greats and they did not average the stats that Stephon Marbury currently averages. That in no way means Marbury is better than them or at the same level as any of them. I understand that being a great player is more than just stats. It's about basketball IQ, leadership, clutch play, sacrifice, determination to win, as well as all of the tangible things in statistics.

Again, I only mention those greats to show you how impressive Marbury's numbers are. You not understanding that is laughable.

Chris Webber's numbers are as good as Tim Duncan's career numbers, but I wouldn't put Webber in Duncan's class. But, just a look at the stats, Webber is just as good as Duncan. But, clearly, Duncan is arguably the best power forward in the history of the game. And, Chris Webber might be a top 10 power forward in his era. Nonetheless, C-Webb's numbers are impressive even though you cannot mention him in the same sentence as Duncan.

That's what I'm doing with Stephon Marbury. Just comparing his stats to all time greats to show how impressive his stats are, not to say he's as good as they are.

Inconsequential or not, his stats are impressive. And, his talent is undeniable.

[resistanze]

Unnecessary. The stats refute him themselves.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

While close, Magic averaged 19.5 ppg, 11.2 apg.

I know it's splitting hairs, but when you're talking about historic marks, 19.5 is still 19.5 and not 20.0 ppg. That's why what Marbury has done is special. Now, it could very well be the case that by the time Marbury retires that he no longer is above 20.0 ppg or 8.0 apg, but over his 10 year career, currently, it's still something to marvel.

LOL, I mean is there a difference? Marbury has also averaged 16.5 FGA (opposed to Magic's 13.2), Marbury has a career FG% of under 44% (opposed to Magic's 52%), and Marbury has 3 fewer assists per game.

Now I know you aren't arguing that Marbury is better than Magic or anything but this "milestone" doesn't warrant some sot of distinction over Magic, Cousy, Zeke, and Jerry West.

Maybe I should have said it would be a toss-up between Miller and Marbury. Because as far as I'm concerned, I see most teams ending up with the same record.

[td4mvp21]

yeh lets put trash before Andre Miller :drunk

this listing is crap :smokin

The Nuggets are crap. So stfu.

[T-Pain]

i think parker shoulda been like 6 or 7. hes still inconsistant as a 3PT shooter. but other than that, he aint scared of attacking the post

[JamStone]

LOL, I mean is there a difference? Marbury has also averaged 16.5 FGA (opposed to Magic's 13.2), Marbury has a career FG% of under 44% (opposed to Magic's 52%), and Marbury has 3 fewer assists per game.

Now I know you aren't arguing that Marbury is better than Magic or anything but this "milestone" doesn't warrant some sot of distinction over Magic, Cousy, Zeke, and Jerry West.

Maybe I should have said it would be a toss-up between Miller and Marbury. Because as far as I'm concerned, I see most teams ending up with the same record.


Yes, there's a difference, and that's the point.

Say you're a high school senior and you get a 1190 on your SAT and the college you want to get into requires a 1200 score on the SAT to get in. Now what's the difference between 1190 and 1200 really?? Well, getting into the college of your choice.

19.5 ppg is not 20.0 ppg.

And, as for adding other statistical categories ... why? You're changing the argument, but what does it matter? I just stated that 20 ppg and 8 apg career numbers was impressive. Leave it at that. You disagree. Ok, that's your opinion.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

The Nuggets are crap. So stfu.

charming

[Edgar Ray Killen]

my top 10

1 Steve Nash

2 Jason Kidd

3 Mike Bibby

4 Luke Ridnour

5 Jason Williams

6 Kirk Hinrich

7 Marko Jarich

8 Dan Dickau

9 Beno Udrih

10 Steve Blake

[himat]

my top 10

1 Steve Nash

2 Jason Kidd

3 Mike Bibby

4 Luke Ridnour

5 Jason Williams

6 Kirk Hinrich

7 Marko Jarich

8 Dan Dickau

9 Beno Udrih

10 Steve Blake

Rascist bitch!

[IceColdBrewski]

Any point guard list that has Parker rated higher than Arenas should automatically be considered a travesty.

[DirkAB]

You are incapable of understanding or following an argument.

I am not comparing Stephon Marbury to any of those players. I only mention them because they are all time greats and they did not average the stats that Stephon Marbury currently averages. That in no way means Marbury is better than them or at the same level as any of them. I understand that being a great player is more than just stats. It's about basketball IQ, leadership, clutch play, sacrifice, determination to win, as well as all of the tangible things in statistics.

Again, I only mention those greats to show you how impressive Marbury's numbers are. You not understanding that is laughable.

Chris Webber's numbers are as good as Tim Duncan's career numbers, but I wouldn't put Webber in Duncan's class. But, just a look at the stats, Webber is just as good as Duncan. But, clearly, Duncan is arguably the best power forward in the history of the game. And, Chris Webber might be a top 10 power forward in his era. Nonetheless, C-Webb's numbers are impressive even though you cannot mention him in the same sentence as Duncan.

That's what I'm doing with Stephon Marbury. Just comparing his stats to all time greats to show how impressive his stats are, not to say he's as good as they are.

Inconsequential or not, his stats are impressive. And, his talent is undeniable.


If you know that stats don't mean shit, then why even bring them up? His stats aren't really impressive to me unless I have him on my fantasy team, aside from that why would anybody give damn about his numbers? His numbers come at the cost of his teams success. His points are obviously a result of him being a huge ballhog, and his assists come from his domination of the ball. If you are a player that has the ball in their hands as much as Francis or Marbury you are going to rack up the assists, but it kills a team.

His talent is undeniable, but not as undeniable as his selfishness. Talent means nothing if you don't use it in the right way. Horrible team player.

It's laughable that I think it is ridiculous you compared Marbury to all-time greats based on stats? It's laughable that you brought those other players stats up to defend Marbury, even though you claim to know how inferior of a player he really is in comparison to them. I believe that you said earlier in this thread that you would rather have Marbury than Miller, I find that laughable.

[JamStone]

Again, you misread and misinterpret.

Not once did I say "stats don't mean shit."

I stated that "being a great player is more than just stats."

How about you read correctly.

Stats are in fact important in evaluating a player. But, they are not the end-all and be-all. And, greatness goes beyond just numbers. But, stats are one step in how a player's greatness is defined. To refute that is illogical. But, similarly, to say a player is great solely on stats is a poor measure as well.

Stephon Marbury is talented. He has shown selfish traits over his career. I don't deny that. But, so has Allen Iverson. So has Kobe Bryant. So has other very good and great players. But, when the team also succeeds, people don't criticize selfishness as much.

Marbuy also helped turnaround not one, but two lottery teams into playoff teams with the Timberwolves and the Phoenix Suns. Sometimes it's the situation and team chemistry that just doesn't allow a very good players to have team success.

Again, I don't even like Stephon Marbury that much. But, I don't hate on him simply because he has been selfish sometimes and most of the teams he's been on were not successful.

People compare stats all the time. And, often times it's comparing an average player with an all time great. Comparing stats don't necessarily mean I'm comparing the level of greatness of the players. Do you still not understand that?

For example, I could be impressed with Jeff Foster's rebounding per 48 minutes stats. And, hypothetically, if I found out his rebounding rate was just about as good as Kevin Garnett and Ben Wallace, I could say that's impressive. That doesn't mean I think Jeff Foster is as good as either of those players. It might just be that I'm impressed by his reboudning stats.

Relax on telling me who I can and cannot compare players with. People post much more ridiculous thoughts on messageboards for you to go berzerk over.

[Rip-Hamilton32]

my top 10

1 Steve Nash

2 Jason Kidd

3 Mike Bibby

4 Luke Ridnour

5 Jason Williams

6 Kirk Hinrich

7 Marko Jarich

8 Dan Dickau

9 Beno Udrih

10 Steve Blake

i'd like to know what this racist SOB is doing here..look at his sig..it proves it

[resistanze]

Yes, there's a difference, and that's the point.

Say you're a high school senior and you get a 1190 on your SAT and the college you want to get into requires a 1200 score on the SAT to get in. Now what's the difference between 1190 and 1200 really?? Well, getting into the college of your choice.

19.5 ppg is not 20.0 ppg.

And, as for adding other statistical categories ... why? You're changing the argument, but what does it matter? I just stated that 20 ppg and 8 apg career numbers was impressive. Leave it at that. You disagree. Ok, that's your opinion.

Well, thank you for explaining the diffrence between 10 points on an SAT score. Nevertheless, your analogy has little relevance to the numbers you bring up for Marbury.

I'm not changing the argument; the reason I identify other relevant stats is because your analysis is based on the superficiality of Marbury's statistics. Averaging 20 points per game while taking 100 shots, for example, is of little value. If there is a difference between 19.5 and 20 PPG as you state, then you must surely endeavor in other relevant statistics which those numbers are based on.

Essentially, pointing out he has career averages of 20/8 is fine, but pointing out that Frazier, Magic, Isaiah or West haven't serves no real purpose on your part, unless you're A) prepared to go deeper into stats or B) trying to argue Marbury's place among those legends.

[DirkAB]

People compare stats all the time. And, often times it's comparing an average player with an all time great. Comparing stats don't necessarily mean I'm comparing the level of greatness of the players. Do you still not understand that?


Please explain the point of comparing stats of all-time greats with one of the biggest underachievers in the game today???? Seriously, what can be gained by doing so? Other than the appearance of making ridiculous comparisons, how does this do anything but show that stats really mean very little in the grand scheme of the game of basketball?

I give Marbury very little credit for the turn around for the Suns or Wolves. IMO those teams had some minor success despite their terrible PG, not because of him.

I guess I'm very amazed that anybody would rather have a guy like Marbury run their team over a guy like Miller. I truly think that Miller is a fine team player with great playmaking ability. Even if he was born with less god-given ability he is still a better player on any given team because of the intangibles he brings. Marbury's biggest contribution he has made to every team he has been on is getting traded, every single team has improved immediately after him getting traded, it's unbelievable.

[SCdac]

my top 10

1 Steve Nash

2 Jason Kidd

3 Mike Bibby

4 Luke Ridnour

5 Jason Williams

6 Kirk Hinrich

7 Marko Jarich

8 Dan Dickau

9 Beno Udrih

10 Steve Blake

It's funny because both of those guys so high on your list are half African American. :lol

[TDMVPDPOY]

my top 10

1 Steve Nash

2 Jason Kidd

3 Mike Bibby

4 Luke Ridnour

5 Jason Williams

6 Kirk Hinrich

7 Marko Jarich

8 Dan Dickau

9 Beno Udrih

10 Steve Blake

nash
billups
arenas
kidd
hinrich
bibby
beno
cp3

[Edgar Ray Killen.]

i'd like to know what this racist SOB is doing here..look at his sig..it proves it

i like your sig

[dirk4mvp]

Nash is easily number 1.

[Rip-Hamilton32]

i like your sig

really? because its you..

[ShoogarBear]

Again, if Nash is so good, why did Dallas get so much better after he left (without getting anything back for him)?

[Mavs_man_41]

Again, if Nash is so good, why did Dallas get so much better after he left (without getting anything back for him)?

If nash isnt so good, then why did the suns immediately get better when he arrived? How were they still in the Western Conference Finals without Amare?

[ShoogarBear]

Phoenix went through a lot of changes when Nash got there; he wasn't the only one.

They got to the WCF because of seeding buffonery; they barely squeaked by two mediocre teams.

And asking two new questions doesn't answer my question; guess you have no response for that.

[mavsfan1000]

Phoenix went through a lot of changes when Nash got there; he wasn't the only one.

They got to the WCF because of seeding buffonery; they barely squeaked by two mediocre teams.

And asking two new questions doesn't answer my question; guess you have no response for that.
The same could be said of the mavs. They got Harris, Terry, and Dampier. Also Josh Howard had a breakout year and Dirk took his game to another level. Dallas is definitely better with Nash but with the new additions this team didn't need Nash to be an elite team.

[Obstructed_View]

Magic did not put up a career 20 and 8. Neither did Walt Frazier or Jerry West or Isiah Thomas or Bob Cousy or Tiny Archibald.

As far as I know, only Oscar Robertson put up 20 and 8. Right now after a 10 year career, Stephon Marbury is averaging 20 ppg and 8 apg.

Never has it been so monumentally inconsequential ... yeah, but there was only one other time, as far as I know.

Hey, listen. I don't even like Stephon Marbury. I don't like him as a player very much at all. But, you got to give it up to him when it comes down to his talent.
Sorry, but this post just reinforces my point. Marbury has talent. He puts up numbers for himself and manages to do it and not make his team any better than it would be without him. There are probably other players in the league that could put up 20 and 8 if that were their only goal.

[Obstructed_View]

I just stated that 20 ppg and 8 apg career numbers was impressive.
It's impressive for what it's worth. It shows what million dollar talent and a fifty cent head can produce.

[ShoogarBear]

The same could be said of the mavs. They got Harris, Terry, and Dampier. Also Josh Howard had a breakout year and Dirk took his game to another level. Dallas is definitely better with Nash but with the new additions this team didn't need Nash to be an elite team.
Again, you're missing the point. Would you take Nash back?

[mavsfan1000]

Again, you're missing the point. Would you take Nash back?
Of course. I'd switch Nash for Terry anytime and have Harris come off the bench to keep Nash's minutes down.

[stretch]

IMO, Nash is the best PG in the NBA, but there are other PG's that are better basketball players (mainly because of nash's extremely poor defense). but no one does the job of a PG better than Steve Nash, IMO.

[Ozzman]

Personally I like Tony Parker the best. He is really one of the best in the game right now. Call me stupid, but that's what I think.

[ShoogarBear]

Of course. I'd switch Nash for Terry anytime and have Harris come off the bench to keep Nash's minutes down.
And the Mavs would immediately revert back to a crappy defensive team.

[Edgar Ray Killen.]

why hesitate to trade the black guy for the white?

[Mavs_man_41]

why hesitate to trade the black guy for the white?

Nobody wants to see that racist shit. You aren't funny. Make another name and take it to the troll forum if you want to be funny.

[ShoogarBear]

Nobody wants to see that racist shit. You aren't funny. Make another name and take it to the troll forum if you want to be funny.I'm like 99% sure that's one of mouse's trolls. You may not know him cause he's been away. Just ignore him; he's harmless.

[dirk4mvp]

And the Mavs would immediately revert back to a crappy defensive team.

Granted they haven't been to the finals, no D all O has been working for the Suns.

[~~Ice Man 2000~~]

jason kidd and chris paull need to be higher JK isnt burn out yet

[ShoogarBear]

Granted they haven't been to the finals, no D all O has been working for the Suns.
It's been working just as well as it did for the Mavs.

[DirkAB]

Personally I like Tony Parker the best. He is really one of the best in the game right now. Call me stupid, but that's what I think.

OK, stupid.

[dirk4mvp]

^ :lol

[dirk4mvp]

It's been working just as well as it did for the Mavs.

The Mavs never made it to the WCF with Steve in what, 6 or 7 years? His first 2 years with the Suns, they make it to the WCF both times. :oops

[ShoogarBear]

The Mavs never made it to the WCF with Steve in what, 6 or 7 years? His first 2 years with the Suns, they make it to the WCF both times. :oopsSigh.

Mav Fans.

[dirk4mvp]

Always those words from.....

...Spurs fans.

[ShoogarBear]

I suppose it's too much to hope for a Mav fan who can remember all the way back to 2003.

Perhaps the image of Steve Nash running away from a wide open Steve Kerr will jog somebody's memory.

[dirk4mvp]

:oops I forgot. It's still only once in all those years.

[Mavs_man_41]

To answer shooger bears question, nash's departure was the signal to the start of a new era, the era where the mavs at least attempt to play a little defense. After nash left, howard took his game to the next level and the mavs finally got a decent center. We were also fortunate enough to get Terry to replace Nash. Not to take anything away from Nash but the mavs defense greatly improved when he left. It wasnt all him, the mavericks improved defense from every position not just PG.