One secular Arab women’s perspective… Must see!!!

[ShackO]

One secular Arab women’s perspective… Must see!!! (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null)

transcript (http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1050)

[Extra Stout]

She is soooooooo going to get stoned if she ever goes back to Arabia.

[ShackO]

I was thinking the same thing..........

She is very powerful speaker and on the money............ IMO......

Check out this one as well..............

#783 (http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=783wmv&ak=null)

[whottt]

I been saying this for years.....

This is why I am of the opinion that anyone that thinks the people we are fighting are just a different side of the coin is an idiot.

I dated a Pakistani Woman(raised as a Muslim now an atheist) and she played a big role in the opinions I now have of the middle east and Islam.


Stories like...

Her little sister was molested at the age of 4 by a male 19 year old house servant...

IT wasn't the house servants fault...it was the 4 year old girls. They didn't even fire they house servant, they shamed the little girl.

She herself was beaten repeatedly by her father and brothers just for voicing her opinion....

My bad...she was held down by her mother, who then called for her father and brothers to come beat her.

When she told them she wanted to get a job they beat her and threatened to institutionalize her.

When she left her first husband she had to leave Pakistan because he was going to kill her.

She got out...

Her entire family lives in Canada now...and she says her family is extremely docile now compared to those of her friends...

And this all was happening in the 80's when Pakistan had a female PM.

She still loves her father and brothers....and her family now lives in Canada...

But she has told them, if they ever even think about touching her daughter or harming her in anyway she will do everything in her power to make sure they spend the rest of their lives on prison...

The thing is...she didn't know there was another way until she got over here...she just thought she was crazy or evil. She had that beat into her...

Just like her little sister was shamed into believing that she was responsible for being molested at the age of 4.

She says most Muslim Women don't know any other way, they haven't got a clue that beatings, rapings, and possible death for disobeying your husband are not a part of life for all women.

Anyone that can't see that this is a battle of an unenlightented culture that wants all the benfits of the enlightenment, vs one that actually is more enlightened...is just an idiot.

A useful idiot....for the terrorists.

[Extra Stout]

whottt, where I would disagree with your series of opinions is that I do not think the onus should be on us to change them, nor do I think we even have the power to change them.

The onus has to be on them to change themselves.

[whottt]

If only it were that simple...it's not.

And frankly it's kind of scary...because I often wonder...that region of the world was the birth place of civilization, words, education, government all the things we value so much over here now, began over there...I wonder, is that where we are going...is that our past, or is that our future....I say we make it our past.

[Sec24Row7]

I say we make it a radioactive hole in the ground.

[spurster]

Sadly, I expect we are making little progress in Afghanistan and Iraq to change these kinds of attitudes.

[Extra Stout]

If only it were that simple...it's not.

And frankly it's kind of scary...because I often wonder...that region of the world was the birth place of civilization, words, education, government all the things we value so much over here now, began over there...I wonder, is that where we are going...is that our past, or is that our future....I say we make it our past.
If we had a few hundred years to drag that area into modernity, maybe it could be done... but Iran will have nuclear weapons in five years, tops.

And once they have them, they will fire away at Tel Aviv, and that will mark the end of nation-building.

I suppose we could desperately plug away for the next few years, hoping that something changes and that this hellbound descent into nuclear war gets halted, but... I don't want us in the mindset that it is our responsibility to save them from themselves.

I wonder, if the attack on Tel Aviv were successful, and let's say the Masada Plan weren't in effect, what would the West do? Would we go to the UN and try to negotiate a verbal condemnation of Iran? Would we cut a deal with them? Would we impose sanctions?

Would we retaliate with token "precision" attacks to avoid civilian casualties?

Would we invade and try to build a democracy and change hearts and minds?

Or would we attack with such horrific power as to make clear to any nation who would ever try that again to the West that the consequence would be its disappearance forever?

Let's say they use a terror group as a proxy. Would we wring our hands about it and just redouble our security efforts? Or would we say, we know who the sponsors of this were, and do what needs to be done?

One of the vectors of current events is toward an existential threat to us, and sometimes I wonder if we've gotten so "sophisticated" and "humane" that we would lack the nerve to defend ourselves if it came to that.

So if we lack the resolve to keep that way of life in our past, it will become our future.

[whottt]

I don't really disagree with anything you are saying ES...but as 9/11 proved...their problems are our problems and turning a blind eye only allows the problem to grow.


Or would we attack with such horrific power as to make clear to any nation who would ever try that again to the West that the consequence would be its disappearance forever?


Most likely this one...


I don't fear a direct attack from any of these countries....I fear them getting nuke tech and letting it trickle down to their sociopaths.

I don't think any of them will directly nuke Israel either....

I do believe that there is a finite amount of nutcases though....finite, yet renewable.

The only alternative to nuke...is Democracy in a muslim or Arab dominated area...so they can see it isn't a West VS Islam thing...it's a they VS their own shitty leaders thing....

And we have to earn back the trust that Europe destroyed after WWI....

It wasn't just the middle east you know...

Britain, and in particular France fucked Germany over too in the settlement...and that lead directly to WWII.


It is true that Islam is very opressive right now, but this is not always true...it's become more true since WWI...because they got a bunch of dictators ruling them.

[ShackO]

whottt, where I would disagree with your series of opinions is that I do not think the onus should be on us to change them, nor do I think we even have the power to change them.

The onus has to be on them to change themselves.

Exactly.........

The approach is ass backwards............

They must be enticed… Drawn in……..

Putting any military in there trained to kill is going to have the opposite effect.. You essentially have ppl trained to kill now “policing” the streets….

[Extra Stout]

I don't really disagree with anything you are saying ES...but as 9/11 proved...their problems are our problems and turning a blind eye only allows the problem to grow.
I'm not arguing that we can turn a blind eye to it... I'm arguing that trying to nurture them into democracies is futile.


I don't think any of them will directly nuke Israel either....
I'm concerned that Iran will make good on its promise from seven or eight years back, when then-President Rafsanjani announced Iran's new nuclear program, the purpose of which was to develop weapons to kill all the Jews in Israel.

He admitted that this policy would result in the deaths of several million Iranians, but asserted that this was an acceptable trade-off, since there would still be about a billion Muslims left, but virtually no Jews left, except in the U.S.

In the intervening several years, nothing has taken place to lead me to believe he was being facetious.


The only alternative to nuke...is Democracy in a muslim or Arab dominated area...so they can see it isn't a West VS Islam thing...it's a they VS their own shitty leaders thing....
I don't believe that Arab culture is compatible with democracy. Not every culture is. SE Asians? Sure. South Asians? If their rugged lands could ever be tamed. Heck, Iran would have a moderate democracy today had we and the UK not fomented a "Communist" uprising as an excuse to oust Mossadegh and install the Shah in order to protect British oil interests in 1953.

But the Arabs... their tribal society would have to be changed radically before democracy could be possible. Iraq I suppose was the best bet because of the secular reforms Saddam Hussein had instituted... and that has gone up in smoke.


It is true that Islam is very opressive right now, but this is not always true...it's become more true since WWI...because they got a bunch of dictators ruling them.
Islam may have been oppressive for a while, but we didn't hear about it because their lands were impoverished backwaters in the last days of the Ottoman Empire.

The Marine Corps songs mention the "shores of Tripoli" for a reason. Around 1800, Berber Muslim pirates were attacking U.S. ships and killing their sailors. Thomas Jefferson told them to stop. They said no, we will slay all you infidels in the name of Allah, so convert or die (sound familiar?). Jefferson then ordered the indiscriminate bombardment of Tripoli. When the Berbers tired of that, they agreed to stop killing the infidels and signed a treaty. (Should we learn from that?)

Maybe in the days of al-Andalus, compared to medieval Europe, Muslim society was the oasis of that part of the world. But ever since the Spanish reconquest, they have not advanced. They are trapped in the Middle Ages.

[whottt]

Good points all the way around...

Islam did stop progrssing, it's stopped embracing scientiffic advancement and that's when Europe and the West passed it, but this current strain we fight is actually less progressive than what was prevalent in the Ottoman Empire at the time of it's demise...it's actually gone backwards, even from the early part of the 20th century. This is early Muhammad era Islam...and almost pre Abrahamic paganism Moon God stuff.

And not all muslims are insane...but in truth most of the ones that aren't have gotten out of the Mid-East.


Iran is a problem but the mid-east is so complex...the Saudis don't want Iran becoming the major power in the Mid-East....Egypt doesn't want that...Jordan doesn't want that.

So it's not like Iran is going to have wholesale support...and honestly, Israel will kick their ass even if Nukes come into play...Iran will destroy itself destroying Israel.

[ShackO]

Exactly… There is no vision for the future.. Merely just tear the MF down, blow it up etc.=Anarchy………

Examples-Afghanistan and now Somalia where you have total chaos and then the stern implementation of “Islamic law” that brings about a primal order and a brutal society along the lines of Pol Pots Cambodia…

[Nbadan]

Islam did stop progrssing, it's stopped embracing scientiffic advancement and that's when Europe and the West passed it, but this current strain we fight is actually less progressive than what was prevalent in the Ottoman Empire at the time of it's demise...it's actually gone backwards, even from the early part of the 20th century. This is early Muhammad era Islam...and almost pre Abrahamic paganism Moon God stuff.

Ever heard of Indonesia? It hosts the largest amount of Muslims in the world and, it's, why it can't be....it's a democracy. But that can't be because according to Whott, Muslims are too primative-minded to understand anything besides straping a bomb onto themselves and walking on a bus. Whott's obvious xenophobia toward Arabs and the ME in general seethes through in every post he makes destroying any remnants of credibility he ever had on the subject (and that wasn't much). Kinda like a Skin-head who's only post surround killing Jews. If you say it enough sooner rather than later people just stop listening to you.

No, it can't be that the Arabs, Sunnis, Shia, and Kurds in the ME are tired of western-aligned puppet government and rich monarchs supported with oil money extorted from their natural resources and want a chance to rule themselves for once, a real democracy in the region if there ever was one, this is obviously about religion and West-hating Arabs who would will send their 6 year old kid to kill you if they had the chance.

:rolleyes

[Extra Stout]

No, it can't be that the Arabs, Sunnis, Shia, and Kurds in the ME are tired of western-aligned puppet government and rich monarchs supported with oil money extorted from their natural resources and want a chance to rule themselves for once, a real democracy in the region if there ever was one, this is obviously about religion and West-hating Arabs who would will send their 6 year old kid to kill you if they had the chance.

:rolleyes
Umm... whottt was arguing for democracy in the Middle East.

I was the one saying they don't want it.

If given a choice of what governments to have, Arabs largely would want Islamic fundamentalist states. More correctly, they would want Islamic fundamentalist states where their own tribe had absolute power.

This idea that everybody picks democracy if given a choice is culturally tone-deaf. It assumes everybody is attuned to the Western notion of the social contract. To people who grow up in the starker strains of Islam, it is blasphemous to think they would decide upon their own laws, since in their minds government belongs to the Almighty. There is no "consent of the governed." There is only submission to God.

South Asian and SE Asian Muslims live in cultures more amenable to moderate governments, as obviously do the Turks. Islam is not the same everywhere you go.

[cheguevara]

One secular arab women...

keyword: "One"

[whottt]

Ever heard of Indonesia? It hosts the largest amount of Muslims in the world and, it's, why it can't be....it's a democracy.

So's Turkey.



But that can't be because according to Whott, Muslims are too primative-minded to understand anything besides straping a bomb onto themselves and walking on a bus.

The ones that choose to matter are that way...yes.


Whott's obvious xenophobia toward Arabs and the ME in general seethes through in every post he makes destroying any remnants of credibility he ever had on the subject (and that wasn't much). Kinda like a Skin-head who's only post surround killing Jews. If you say it enough sooner rather than later people just stop listening to you.

Or kinda like the way you and board libs talk about conservative christians...right Dan?

You fucking hypocrite.


And I bet I can find more posts by the board libs saying the mid east is filled with hopeless savages than I can the board conservatives.


I don't think it's an intelligence thing...it's a cultural thing...and damn right I am xenophobic of it.

I don't think it's hopeless though...we're just going to have to do the fighting for the sane ones. They won't do it.

I am for spreading Democracy and Self Government in the Mid-East...and it if fails I am for nuking them off the fucking planet....or killing as many "civillians" as it takes to get rid of the fantacism.

It's not a conservative thing...it's a human survival and progression thing.


No, it can't be that the Arabs, Sunnis, Shia, and Kurds in the ME are tired of western-aligned puppet government and rich monarchs supported with oil money extorted from their natural resources and want a chance to rule themselves for once, a real democracy in the region if there ever was one, this is obviously about religion and West-hating Arabs who would will send their 6 year old kid to kill you if they had the chance.

:rolleyes


It's pointless to argue this with you...but those in control and willing to fight, just want to replace the dictators...not install democracy and liberty.

THey refuse to admit the flaws in their culture, the backwards direction it is moving...trying to reclaim the past.

And as well...


They don't want to become a bunch of decadent hedonistic faggots and sluts...who kiss jewish ass and cowtow to their women.



You know...Hollywood liberal types, and their immense numbers of adoring sheep...er followers.

[DarkReign]

I am for spreading Democracy and Self Government in the Mid-East...and it if fails I am for nuking them off the fucking planet....or killing as many "civillians" as it takes to get rid of the fantacism.

It's not a conservative thing...it's a human survival and progression thing.

Holy shit. We agree on something.


They don't want to become a bunch of decadent hedonistic faggots and sluts...who kiss jewish ass and cowtow to their women.

You know...Hollywood liberal types, and their immense numbers of adoring sheep...er followers.

Really, who does besides Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon? California is so far away from Michigan, I must be missing something. Half the bullshit that goes on in that part of the world never makes it here. But Texas is close proximity, that must suck.

[whottt]

Really, who does besides Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon? California is so far away from Michigan, I must be missing something. Half the bullshit that goes on in that part of the world never makes it here. But Texas is close proximity, that must suck.

Wow...I am noticing a trend with you.

I am not going to attempt to explain the point I was making to you...I'm just going to let you think you are clever.


In closing I'll just say...

Let me know when you see a gay pride or women's liberation parade anywhere in an Arab country....

[DarkReign]

Wow...I am noticing a trend with you.

I am not going to attempt to explain the point I was making to you...I'm just going to let you think you are clever.


In closing I'll just say...

Let me know when you see a gay pride or women's liberation parade anywhere in an Arab country....

I got the point completely, thank you. Youre a trip.

[Yonivore]

whottt, where I would disagree with your series of opinions is that I do not think the onus should be on us to change them, nor do I think we even have the power to change them.

The onus has to be on them to change themselves.
And, refusing that, for us to marginalize them through force.

[Extra Stout]

And, refusing that, for us to marginalize them through force.
Yes.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Dubya thinks we're winning their hearts and minds, but Dubya is an idiot.

[ShackO]

One secular arab women...

keyword: "One"

That was my choice of words.. Not hers...........

I am sure there are many others in Lebanon and especially in the Syrian, Lebanese/Arab diaspora that have the same or similar views… It is difficult to openly express those views for obvious reasons….

I hope she is taking steps to insure her safety………..

[ShackO]

Umm... whottt was arguing for democracy in the Middle East.

I was the one saying they don't want it.

If given a choice of what governments to have, Arabs largely would want Islamic fundamentalist states. More correctly, they would want Islamic fundamentalist states where their own tribe had absolute power.

This idea that everybody picks democracy if given a choice is culturally tone-deaf. It assumes everybody is attuned to the Western notion of the social contract. To people who grow up in the starker strains of Islam, it is blasphemous to think they would decide upon their own laws, since in their minds government belongs to the Almighty. There is no "consent of the governed." There is only submission to God.

South Asian and SE Asian Muslims live in cultures more amenable to moderate governments, as obviously do the Turks. Islam is not the same everywhere you go.


Well said, it has more to do with culture then necessarily religion..

We have seen it happen in North Africa, Egypt and prob going to happen in almost any Arab country were the wackO’s have been allowed to run amuck and kill anyone that does not believe as they do…..

To many ppl see it as a religious “over” reaction and yet the same feelings and attitudes towards the USA are prevalent in much of Central and South America where the US has supported some tyrant…….

It seems the longer the aspirations of the ppl are suppressed in this manner the more likelihood of a severe swing the other way when that regime is finally toppled…

[ShackO]

I am for spreading Democracy and Self Government in the Mid-East...and it if fails I am for nuking them off the fucking planet....or killing as many "civillians" as it takes to get rid of the fantacism.



I hope you are talking in jest here............

[Phenomanul]

When 'Peace' finally reaches the Middle East, Hagee's wildest dream will have come true because biblically speaking peace will only be attained in the 'holy land' after the battle of Armageddon....

Until then.... all we will hear are, rumors of war, rumors of peace.... rumors of war, rumors of peace.... rumors of war, rumors of peace etc...

Biblically speaking of course....

[ShackO]

Really there is no time when there was not war somewhere on the planet… The middle east has had moments of peace as have most regions have @ one time or another…

I don’t think we have to necessarily be in “the end times” for there to be peace there now… But it surely seems pretty unlikely any time soon………