Another mother who should be shot...

[travis2]

Daughter given away for sex, police say (http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-31/1155307559175400.xml&coll=6)

Friday, August 11, 2006
By Lisa Medendorp
Press News Service

MUSKEGON -- A woman afraid of losing her boyfriend while she was recuperating from surgery arranged to have her 15-year-old daughter be his sex partner for two months.

The man and woman now face felony charges.

Police said evidence against them includes a written contract signed by all three that specifies the sexual services and the "pay" the girl would get, including clothing and body piercings.

The investigation also has led to additional charges against the 37-year-old man for the alleged sexual abuse of a second girl who is younger than 13.

Michael Jon Fitzgibbon, of Muskegon, remains in the Muskegon County Jail after a judge denied bail in one of the cases.

The mother is not being identified to protect the daughter, who is a victim of sex abuse and not facing charges.

The woman posted a $25,000 surety bond after her 60th District Court arraignment Tuesday on three counts of third-degree criminal sexual conduct involving a person 13 to 15 years old. It is a 15-year felony.

Muskegon Heights Detective Calvin Mahan said the woman "helped facilitate" a two-month sexual relationship between her boyfriend and her daughter.

Mahan said the woman "was going to have some surgery and she was afraid she was going to lose her boyfriend."

A written contract between the woman, Fitzgibbon and the 15-year-old was drawn up, with the teen to serve as a sex substitute, authorities said.

In late July, Fitzgibbon was charged with a total of six counts of third-degree criminal sexual conduct in two cases involving the 15-year-old girl, who finally told another adult what was going on, authorities said.

After testimony Monday from the girl during Fitzgibbon's preliminary examination, Mahan arrested her mother in the hallway outside the courtroom.

"It's incredible that any parent would be involved in such a blatant case of abuse against her own daughter," said Muskegon County Prosecutor Tony Tague. "This is one of the most unusual cases of child abuse that has come across my desk."

Police said in exchange for providing Fitzgibbon with sex, the teen would receive a desired item, such as a body piercing, clothing or a visit from her boyfriend.

Mahan said Fitzgibbon and the 15-year-old girl had sex "close to 20 times" during June and July. The girl testified in court that she chose to put on a sleeping mask when she had to have sex with Fitzgibbon.

The girl also said she never wanted to have sex with him.

Fitzgibbon was bound over to 14th Circuit Court to stand trial in the two third-degree criminal sexual conduct cases.

However, since the original charges against Fitzgibbon, authorities say a 12-year-girl disclosed multiple instances of alleged sexual abuse. On Friday, Fitzgibbon was arraigned before visiting 60th District Judge Richard J. Pasarela on six counts of first-degree criminal sexual conduct with a person younger than 13, a potential life felony.

Bond had been set in the earlier cases, but in the latest, Pasarela denied bail. Preliminary examination has been set for Aug. 17. The mother faces preliminary examination Aug. 22.

[tlongII]

sick

[CubanMustGo]

FitzGIBBON. Seems appropriate for this asshole.

[dougp]

Someone pointed out on FARK that this girl did it 20 times for 2 months, on top of signing the contract ... obviously she wanted to do it.

Not saying that it's right, but doesn't that make her a prostitute/whore?

[Duncan Fan]

Someone pointed out on FARK that this girl did it 20 times for 2 months, on top of signing the contract ... obviously she wanted to do it.

Not saying that it's right, but doesn't that make her a prostitute/whore?

I was thinking the same. Why didn't she tell someone before the first encounter took place. It's not like he caught her by surprise, she knew what was coming..

[Mixability]

but doesn't that make her a prostitute/whore?

I didn't want to be the first to say it, but yeah.

[travis2]

Someone pointed out on FARK that this girl did it 20 times for 2 months, on top of signing the contract ... obviously she wanted to do it.

Not saying that it's right, but doesn't that make her a prostitute/whore?


Personally I don't think it's necessarily so "obvious"...

[T-Pain]

thats some crazy shit

[emo serb]

Only in Michigan.

[dougp]

Personally I don't think it's necessarily so "obvious"...
Well - in more recent years, things like this don't happen quite like that for that long and be consenting ... she would have said something, to someone, at some point. Atleast, IMO.

[DarkReign]

Only in Michigan.

Not really.

[emo serb]

Not really.
I know.

[Kori Ellis]

Well - in more recent years, things like this don't happen quite like that for that long and be consenting ... she would have said something, to someone, at some point. Atleast, IMO.

I guess that depends if she was messed up emotionally, felt threatened, or a variety of other factors. A lot of pre-teen/teenagers are molested for years and don't say anything. I don't think anyone here can make the call if she was consenting or not.

[travis2]

Well - in more recent years, things like this don't happen quite like that for that long and be consenting ... she would have said something, to someone, at some point. Atleast, IMO.

If it were some random guy off the street, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. However, in this case, it was family. Mother and (not unreasonable to assume) step-father-figure. Dysfunctional, twisted, inbred...but still family. That complicates things.

[travis2]

I guess that depends if she was messed up emotionally, felt threatened, or a variety of other factors. A lot of pre-teen/teenagers are molested for years and don't say anything. I don't think anyone here can make the call if she was consenting or not.

In violent agreement, Kori...

[1Parker1]

That is a little unusual that she would sign the contract and have sex with the guy for 2 months before telling someone. Not to be cynical and jaded without knowing the whole story, but she was getting clothes, tattoo's, piercing's, etc. as a reward every time right? Maybe that had something to do with her not telling sooner.

Either way, whatever the story is, the girl isn't at fault either way. She's only 15 years old. The fact that her own mother would initiate and propose such a thing is sick.

[emo serb]

Imagine what the girls bf is thinking...

[dougp]

I guess that depends if she was messed up emotionally, felt threatened, or a variety of other factors. A lot of pre-teen/teenagers are molested for years and don't say anything. I don't think anyone here can make the call if she was consenting or not.
This is true - but I'd say not many would sign a freakin contract though, right? I mean c'mon, you gotta admit that is one f'ed up part of the story.

Outside of that, it's a normal case of stat. rape ... but because of that portion of the contract, I feel she's a bit obliged as well to share in some of the punishment ... though could probably get off on what you said.

[TDMVPDPOY]

jerry springer? next!

[Kori Ellis]

Outside of that, it's a normal case of stat. rape ... but because of that portion of the contract, I feel she's a bit obliged as well to share in some of the punishment

What the hell?

The 15-year-old victim deserves some of the "punishment". What do you want them to charge her with?

[Kori Ellis]

That is a little unusual that she would sign the contract and have sex with the guy for 2 months before telling someone. Not to be cynical and jaded without knowing the whole story, but she was getting clothes, tattoo's, piercing's, etc. as a reward every time right? Maybe that had something to do with her not telling sooner.

Or maybe she was afraid? Or maybe she was threatened? Or maybe she was just too emotionally fucked up to tell anyone? Or scared of her mom getting in trouble? Or whatever?

I can't believe people here are saying an abused kid needs to take some of the blame for the abuse.

Y'all have some fucked up line of thinking.

[dougp]

You're automatically assuming that this girl is screwed up in some head and that it's entirely her parents fault. Ever think that maybe the girl thought of this shit too?

What is fucked up is to entirely think that she had nothing to do with it ... I'm not ignoring the fact that she probably has some issues, but I do not dismiss the fact that she signed a freakin CONTRACT. That's an alarm to me, because then she knew she was getting something out of it ... she schemed.

[Mixability]

Or maybe she was afraid? Or maybe she was threatened? Or maybe she was just too emotionally fucked up to tell anyone? Or scared of her mom getting in trouble? Or whatever?

I can't believe people here are saying an abused kid needs to take some of the blame for the abuse.

Y'all have some fucked up line of thinking.

Do you not see the fucked up side of her getting rewards for having sex with the creep?

[DarkReign]

Or maybe she was afraid? Or maybe she was threatened? Or maybe she was just too emotionally fucked up to tell anyone? Or scared of her mom getting in trouble? Or whatever?

I can't believe people here are saying an abused kid needs to take some of the blame for the abuse.

Y'all have some fucked up line of thinking.

Not that I am siding with anyone here, but dont absolve a 15 year old of any blame. I play Devil's Advocate all the time.

15 year olds are repsonsible for Colombine. 15 year olds are sentenced to life in prison every year for 1st degree murder.

15 year olds know the difference between rape and sex. Sounds to me like she was abused and coerced into this situation and seen the "gifts" as a small benefit. But when she got sick of it, and there werent anymore limbs to pierce, she ratted him out (rightfully so).

I just dont agree with your line of thinking that she is somehow.....clueless or naive to not know what was going on. She stood to gain something, she took advantage, got sick of it, ended it the only way she knew how.

Shes a victim, sure. But a smart victim. Sorry if this isnt very PC, but 15 year olds dont get much sympathy from me at all. Youre old enough to knwo better. This American way of thinking is silly. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but the truth is, we are one of a few nations that say a girl has to be 18. Most are 16. So if this were Germany, she would have been less than a year away from not even being able to press charges.

Just perspective. Dont misconstrue what I am saying.

[Kori Ellis]

I just dont agree with your line of thinking that she is somehow.....clueless or naive to not know what was going on. She stood to gain something, she took advantage, got sick of it, ended it the only way she knew how.

That's not my line of thinking at all. Obviously she knew what was going on. In the beginning when it was proposed to her, she probably felt forced but obligated -- it was her mom asking her to do it. Not many kids are willing to rat out their parents for something. So, you are right, she probably rationalized it in her head and thought at least she'd get something out of it.

But enigma is saying she should be PUNISHED and that she probably thought up the idea on her own.

What the hell?

[dougp]

the real victim here is the 15 year old...no matter what anyone says
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/prb993-e.htm

Unless I'm reading that wrong, it looks like the age of consent in Canada is still 14 ... unless this did pass, and it's now 16.

So this would be legal - would she still be a victim?

I'm still not saying this right - I'm just pointing out that someone who is 15 does know they can get stuff out of this.

[flipcritic]

Guys. We weren't there. Please stop judging the girl.

[dougp]

That's not my line of thinking at all. Obviously she knew what was going on. In the beginning when it was proposed to her, she probably felt forced but obligated -- it was her mom asking her to do it. Not many kids are willing to rat out their parents for something. So, you are right, she probably rationalized it in her head and thought at least she'd get something out of it.

But enigma is saying she should be PUNISHED and that she probably thought up the idea on her own.

What the hell?
If she did consent - and by signing a contract, one would think she did - I'd say that taking items for sex would make one a prostitute, right? I'm just saying ... the arguement itself was brought up on FARK.

[Kori Ellis]

You don't think she was coerced into signing the contract?

You think they just presented her the contract and she was like "Sure, sounds like a great part time job."

[DarkReign]

That's not my line of thinking at all. Obviously she knew what was going on. In the beginning when it was proposed to her, she probably felt forced but obligated -- it was her mom asking her to do it. Not many kids are willing to rat out their parents for something. So, you are right, she probably rationalized it in her head and thought at least she'd get something out of it.

But enigma is saying she should be PUNISHED and that she probably thought up the idea on her own.

What the hell?

Oh, oh oh.....no no no. I dont believe even as Devils Advocate that she should be punished. Thats ridiculous. Even if she knowingly knew what she was doing and plotted against her mother and boyfriend is irrelevant.

Whether or not 15 is an old enough age to consent, the law says it is not. Not much debate there, unless the law overturned (highly unlikely).
------------------------

All I was saying is that I dont much see her as a victim, or that she was raped (in the sense that it wasnt consentual). It was consentual, but illegal.

[DarkReign]

Also, any contract signed by a person under 18 is null and void, by law in Michigan.

I know this from first hand experience. Its very very cut and dry.

So legally speaking, even the implications one would take from her signing the contract, legally it dont make a bit of difference. Even is intent was there.

[Kori Ellis]

Anyway, the guy also sexually assaulted a 12-year-old multiple times, so I don't think this is just a case of two consenting people deciding to have sex. The guy is obviously fucked up.

[dougp]

You don't think she was coerced into signing the contract?

You think they just presented her the contract and she was like "Sure, sounds like a great part time job."
She was coerced into signing the contract probably by the "ooo i get new clothes and get to pierce myself" thing going on.

You still seem to think I don't think it was possible that she's innocent - but I do. I just think that someone should kinda investigate it and determine that maybe she is partially to blame?

[DarkReign]

Anyway, the guy also sexually assaulted a 12-year-old multiple times, so I don't think this is just a case of two consenting people deciding to have sex. The guy is obviously fucked up.

Also a good point. If I am going to run all sorts of assumptions over her, I shoudl for him as well.

Hes a pedophile. Jackson State prison here he comes. Good luck in there, tough guy. I knew a guy who did a dime in there, 5 stories was all I needed to never break the law in a significant way as to goto prison.

[dougp]

Also a good point. If I am going to run all sorts of assumptions over her, I shoudl for him as well.

Hes a pedophile. Jackson State prison here he comes. Good luck in there, tough guy. I knew a guy who did a dime in there, 5 stories was all I needed to never break the law in a significant way as to goto prison.
Supposedly that girl is also his daughter from another marriage/woman ... there were some alternate links in the fark thread in regards to that one.

[DarkReign]

Supposedly that girl is also his daughter from another marriage/woman ... there were some alternate links in the fark thread in regards to that one.

Are you saying this 15 year old is related to the "boyfriend" in this story?!

If so, scratch what I said earlier. I dont care what she knew or didnt, hes sick, have fun in prison, buhbye.

[dougp]

Are you saying this 15 year old is related to the "boyfriend" in this story?!

If so, scratch what I said earlier. I dont care what she knew or didnt, hes sick, have fun in prison, buhbye.
No, supposedly he's related to the 12 year old

[1Parker1]

Or maybe she was afraid? Or maybe she was threatened? Or maybe she was just too emotionally fucked up to tell anyone? Or scared of her mom getting in trouble? Or whatever?

I can't believe people here are saying an abused kid needs to take some of the blame for the abuse.

Y'all have some fucked up line of thinking.

Read what I wrote after that.


Either way, whatever the story is, the girl isn't at fault either way. She's only 15 years old. The fact that her own mother would initiate and propose such a thing is sick.

I am not saying that the girl wasn't scared or threatened or is to be blamed/punished in any way. I'm just pointing out that there are two sides to every story. It just seems a little weird to me that she would sign a contract and go on doing it for 2 months...especially when the setup was that she would be getting clothes, piercing's, $$$, in exchange.

[1Parker1]

Anyway, the guy also sexually assaulted a 12-year-old multiple times, so I don't think this is just a case of two consenting people deciding to have sex. The guy is obviously fucked up.

THe guy as well as the Mother...I just don't understand what kind of mother would sell her child off like that...because she couldnt have sex with her BF due to some surgery!

[Mixability]

Has it been said that she was the one that came forward or was it the adult that she told. Maybe she didn't get tired of the "rewards" and was bragging about it.

[boutons_]

I've read that a lot of mothers remain silent, forever, when they suspect or know their kids are being abused by family members.

[tlongII]

The actions of the mother and her BF are absolutely SICK! I don't hold the 15 year-old responsible in any way for this.

[Mixability]

The actions of the mother and her BF are absolutely SICK! I don't hold the 15 year-old responsible in any way for this.


I'm sure they forced her to get the piercings too. :rolleyes

[tlongII]

I'm sure they forced her to get the piercings too. :rolleyes

WTF has that got to do with anything? Teenagers always want stuff and her bitch mother and ass-clown boyfriend seized on this fact to get the dude some underage pussy. Sick.

[Mixability]

WTF has that got to do with anything? Teenagers always want stuff and her bitch mother and ass-clown boyfriend seized on this fact to get the dude some underage pussy. Sick.

She was getting shit for having sex, not for being bitchy or getting good grades in school. She fucked the guy, he gave her what she wanted. She could've refused the stuff and maybe the parents would've seen that she might snitch and maybe they would've stopped. I have a feeling she wasn't the one who told. She wanted to continue getting shit.

[tlongII]

She was getting shit for having sex, not for being bitchy or getting good grades in school. She fucked the guy, he gave her what she wanted. She could've refused the stuff and maybe the parents would've seen that she might snitch and maybe they would've stopped. I have a feeling she wasn't the one who told. She wanted to continue getting shit.


She was presented a contract you dumbass! She didn't go to them with the offer, they came to her! Every teenager wants shit. Maybe this was the only way she could get new clothes...

[Dre_7]

Anyone who is trying to blame the girl have no idea how far some kids will go to please their parents. Just because she signed contract doesnt mean she deserves the punnishment. The mom and the asshole are the ones responsible.

[Mixability]

She was presented a contract you dumbass! She didn't go to them with the offer, they came to her! Every teenager wants shit. Maybe this was the only way she could get new clothes...

Maybe the girls fucked up in the head, I mean cmon, regardless of who made the offer, she got clothes for fucking her moms boyfriend while she was "out sick". When I wanted shit when I was young, I took out the trash, cut the grass, shit like that. They paid her to be quiet and it worked for a while.

[Mixability]

Anyone who is trying to blame the girl have no idea how far some kids will go to please their parents. Just because she signed contract doesnt mean she deserves the punnishment. The mom and the asshole are the ones responsible.

If the girl was younger, a lot younger, then I could see her being confused about the deal. But geez, this YOUNG ADULT was 15.

[tlongII]

Maybe the girls fucked up in the head, I mean cmon, regardless of who made the offer, she got clothes for fucking her moms boyfriend while she was "out sick". When I wanted shit when I was young, I took out the trash, cut the grass, shit like that. They paid her to be quiet and it worked for a while.


Exactly! Only she didn't have that option. She had to fuck her skanky mother's pedophile boyfriend.

[Dre_7]

If the girl was younger, a lot younger, then I could see her being confused about the deal. But geez, this YOUNG ADULT was 15.

I work with youth. Jr Highers. I know a lot of young girls around that age who still are trying to gain love and acceptance from their parents. Its not too hard to believe that she got sucked into this. At that age kids (especaily girls) are going through a lot emotionally. Its easy to manipulate kids that age. Unfortunately it happens alot.

[furry_spurry]

I hope and pray that not a single one of you is ever a victim of sexual abuse or even knows someone who is. Will society ever change? Will it ever quit looking for some way to say she was asking for it- she wanted it- she was getting something for it. And you wonder why females are still so afraid to say anything or to come forward.

[Mixability]

This reminds me of the Naomi Fuentes thread, where everyone was assuming she HAD to be an abused wife and thats why she was missing. The husband HAD to be a suspect. There's NO WAY a mother could just leave her children. :rolleyes The stupid bitch was stealing and left her husband and her kids.

I HOPE, really I do that the girl wasn't in on this. But if she was of sound mind and thought she could get away with being a whore, then hopefully she doesn't try out the "victim" angle.

[travis2]

This reminds me of the Naomi Fuentes thread, where everyone was assuming she HAD to be an abused wife and thats why she was missing. The husband HAD to be a suspect. There's NO WAY a mother could just leave her children. :rolleyes The stupid bitch was stealing and left her husband and her kids.

I HOPE, really I do that the girl wasn't in on this. But if she was of sound mind and thought she could get away with being a whore, then hopefully she doesn't try out the "victim" angle.

Naomi Fuentes wasn't 15 years old...

[Vizzini]

Friday, August 11, 2006
By Theresa D. Mcclellan
The Grand Rapids Press

Lowell- Stanley Lenneman "mocked the suffering" of cancer victims by claiming he had the disease and collecting donations, Circuit Court Judge Dennis Leiber said before sentencing the Saranac man to prison.

Leiber on Thursday sentenced Lenneman, 35, to nearly two years in prison. He previously pleaded guilty to a charge of false pretense of more than $1,000 but less than $20,000.

"You defrauded a whole community and your mother," Leiber said. The judge remarked that Lenneman received letters from true cancer survivors. "You mocked their suffering. You scorned the compassion."

Businesses put canisters on counters to collect money for Lenneman, fund-raisers were organized and family members gave him money, and he eventually collected more than $10,000 before being discovered.

Defense attorney Alida Bryant told the judge that Lenneman's offense should be counted as "one big lie out of control," instead of multiple offenses and asked that he be sentenced between zero and 17 months in prison.

But Leiber listened to her argument, then seemed angry when Lenneman failed to speak for himself.

Lenneman leaned over to his attorney, who told the judge that her client felt remorse for his actions.

"You can't beg forgiveness. You claimed you had cancer, but you can't ask for forgiveness?" Leiber asked.

Lenneman said yes, he could speak, then said he got "caught up" and "it is now time for me to repay. It will take a lifetime



It looks like the Western half of Michigan has a total of three new souls that will be entering hell when their time comes.

BTW, I don't think a 15 year-old whose mom thinks her boyfriend needs to have someone to screw while she is recovering from surgery is someone who raised her daughter with healthy ideas about sex.

[1Parker1]

^:wtf What does that story have to do with this? :lol

[MoSpur]

We're talking about a 15 year old here. She is the victim no matter what. The mother and boyfriend are adults who obviously knew they could get this teenager to go for the deal. Maybe she did see the whole "I get something out it," but she is 15. She is naive. She hasn't experienced life too much. She hasn't even been in high school for more than one year. She just got out of middle school. She isn't even old enough to drive. I'm sure she knows right from wrong when it comes to a lot of things, but the two adults in this case are responsible for her. No matter how you try to spin this, she is not at fault. She is a victim of two adults looking out for themselves.

[Vizzini]

^:wtf What does that story have to do with this? :lol


I live within a 30 mile raduis of where both of these stories took place, so I was just commenting about how f'ed up it is to have both of these stories come to light within a few days of each other.

[1Parker1]

We're talking about a 15 year old here. She is the victim no matter what. The mother and boyfriend are adults who obviously knew they could get this teenager to go for the deal. Maybe she did see the whole "I get something out it," but she is 15. She is naive. She hasn't experienced life too much. She hasn't even been in high school for more than one year. She just got out of middle school. She isn't even old enough to drive. I'm sure she knows right from wrong when it comes to a lot of things, but the two adults in this case are responsible for her. No matter how you try to spin this, she is not at fault. She is a victim of two adults looking out for themselves.

:tu Exactly.

[Mixability]

I guess I'm just hoping that the girl was in on this scheme. That way, it wouldn't seem like she was a perfect little girl who got taken advantage of. If she was part of the plan, then at least she was already fucked up to begin with. I hope everyone understands what I'm saying.

[dougp]

I guess I'm just hoping that the girl was in on this scheme. That way, it wouldn't seem like she was a perfect little girl who got taken advantage of. If she was part of the plan, then at least she was already fucked up to begin with. I hope everyone understands what I'm saying.
I agree with you - I just don't think anyone will understand where we're coming from.

[Mixability]

I agree with you - I just don't think anyone will understand where we're coming from.

Ah well.

[whottt]

It's insane that people are actually questioning the girl in this...

Girl = Child
Children don't know what's best for them.

Even if she was thrilled with this idea...she's still a child.

Mom and Dad = Parents
Parents are supposed to know what's best for their children and nurture and guide them until they are adults.

Whoring your daughter out to keep a worthless POS around and using her as payment to keep him around = shitty parenting.

Wether she thinks it's a good idea or not...

Teaching her to be a whore and selling her is shitty parenting and shitty guidance...


Anyone that doesn't see that is fucking stupid and hopefully you don't have kids.



10 year old shoots someone after Parent buys and loads the gun and points the gun at the victim...

Spurs Talk Dumbass Response...well the kid wanted the gun and wanted to shoot someone....it's his fault for doing it.

Don't reproduce please...if not for the sake of the world, then for the sake of your kids.

[2Blonde]

This is true - but I'd say not many would sign a freakin contract though, right? I mean c'mon, you gotta admit that is one f'ed up part of the story.

Outside of that, it's a normal case of stat. rape ... but because of that portion of the contract, I feel she's a bit obliged as well to share in some of the punishment ... though could probably get off on what you said.
I haven't read the rest of this thread yet but... There is a reason 15 year olds can't legally sign contracts. They aren't mature enough to make rational decisions. The portion of your brain that controls logic, reasoning & rational thought is not completely developed until after you are are 18.
The simple fact is that she was manipulated into sex and that is illegal to do with a 15 year old. It is also illegal and unconscionable for her mother to manipulate and put her into that situation. As a parent your job is to keep your children safe ( and under the law she is still a child). This woman deserves to have her parental rights taken away. If you stick a lollipop or a puppy dog in front of a 6 year old they will follow you anywhere and you can take them and do unimaginable things to them. Same thing goes for teenagers, it just the bait that's different. This time it was piercings, clothes, etc... Predators are experts at knowing how to read their prey. The last thing this girl needs is for people to be second guessing her and telling her that what happened to her is her fault. She needs counseling and help and needs to know it wasn't her fault. She probably didn't speak up because they made her feel guilty because of what she was getting out of it. Pure manipulation!!

[ChumpDumper]

As if it needed to be said, I agree with whottt, Kori, et.al. WTF is wrong with you people?

[dougp]

I haven't read the rest of this thread yet but... There is a reason 15 year olds can't legally sign contracts. They aren't mature enough to make rational decisions. The portion of your brain that controls logic, reasoning & rational thought is not completely developed until after you are are 18.
The simple fact is that she was manipulated into sex and that is illegal to do with a 15 year old. It is also illegal and unconscionable for her mother to manipulate and put her into that situation. As a parent your job is to keep your children safe ( and under the law she is still a child). This woman deserves to have her parental rights taken away. If you stick a lollipop or a puppy dog in front of a 6 year old they will follow you anywhere and you can take them and do unimaginable things to them. Same thing goes for teenagers, it just the bait that's different. This time it was piercings, clothes, etc... Predators are experts at knowing how to read their prey. The last thing this girl needs is for people to be second guessing her and telling her that what happened to her is her fault. She needs counseling and help and needs to know it wasn't her fault. She probably didn't speak up because they made her feel guilty because of what she was getting out of it. Pure manipulation!!
So at 15, one cannot think for themselves?

[dougp]

As if it needed to be said, I agree with whottt, Kori, et.al. WTF is wrong with you people?
1, it's increasing my post count because all I'm posting is dribble with people who don't realize that someone at 15 can think for themselves and heaven forbid they make a decision ... 2) we're not disagreeing that this is probably entirely the parents fault, you guys just can't seem to grasp, yet again, that a 15 year old might think for themselves and see this as a way to gain something, doubly by getting the items and then claiming rape. They can be just as cunning as the parents were feeling.

[2Blonde]

So at 15, one cannot think for themselves?I'm curious, are you or have you ever been a 15 year old girl? Are you the parent of a teenage girl?

[Mixability]

1, it's increasing my post count because all I'm posting is dribble with people who don't realize that someone at 15 can think for themselves and heaven forbid they make a decision ... 2) we're not disagreeing that this is probably entirely the parents fault, you guys just can't seem to grasp, yet again, that a 15 year old might think for themselves and see this as a way to gain something, doubly by getting the items and then claiming rape. They can be just as cunning as the parents were feeling.

They're not gonna understand. Maybe because they believe 15 year olds these days aren't capable of shooting up a school, selling drugs, and being a whore.

[dougp]

I'm curious, are you or have you ever been a 15 year old girl? Are you the parent of a teenage girl?
1) I'm a guy and I was 15 at one point - always pissed me off that people still saw me as a kid.

2) No, I'm not but I interact with a family member who is that age quite a bit - and hear the things she's done and is willing to do ... which I try and talk her out of. Her friends have always said they don't care about sex, because it's just that ... sex. You have a girl that age, am I right? You probably raised her good - and she doesn't think like that ... unfortunately, my her parents are and treat both her and her brother like shit ... so like I said, I'm not fucking dismissing the fact that this is probably her parents fault, BUT SHE CAN MAKE A CONCIOUS DECISION FOR HERSELF. Or do you still think they can't?

[whottt]

1, it's increasing my post count because all I'm posting is dribble with people who don't realize that someone at 15 can think for themselves and heaven forbid they make a decision ... 2) we're not disagreeing that this is probably entirely the parents fault, you guys just can't seem to grasp, yet again, that a 15 year old might think for themselves and see this as a way to gain something, doubly by getting the items and then claiming rape. They can be just as cunning as the parents were feeling.



Claiming it was rape? It was rape....no ifs ands or butts about it...

I don't care if the girl got on the bed, took her clothes off and begged him to do it...

It's still rape.

[ChumpDumper]

Look, it's more than a fair bet that this isn't the only fucked up thing that has ever happened to this girl. The question isn't whether she can think for herself, the question is was she even in a position where she had a real choice. If you think about the real power and influence your parents had on you growing up, you'd realize how faulty this line of thinking is.

[dougp]

Claiming it was rape? It was rape....no ifs ands or butts about it...

I don't care if the girl got on the bed, took her clothes off and begged him to do it...

It's still rape.rape1 http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Frape%2520) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (rhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gifp)
n.

The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.
from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape%20 (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape%20)

From what you just said, that's not the definition bro, sorry. Now, in the middle of intercorse, in Texas, a girl can say no and if the guy doesn't stop, that's rape ... but as long as it's consentual and within the age limits, 17+, that's legal intercourse.

No idea about Michigan.

[ChumpDumper]

Age of consent in Michigan is 16.

It's rape.

[Vizzini]

I'm not fucking dismissing the fact that this is probably her parents fault, BUT SHE CAN MAKE A CONCIOUS DECISION FOR HERSELF.

Assuming of course she was raised properly and had the difference between right and wrong instilled into her as well. Seeing how fucked up the mom is, that is a huge assumption to make.

[Mixability]

Look, it's more than a fair bet that this isn't the only fucked up thing that has ever happened to this girl. The question isn't whether she can think for herself, the question is was she even in a position where she had a real choice. If you think about the real power and influence your parents had on you growing up, you'd realize how faulty this line of thinking is.

She had a choice, plain and simple. Like I said before, if she was 9 or 10 and they were giving her toys and kid stuff like that, then yeah the parents should fry. But at 15?!?! Were all of ya'll THAT gullible at 15? She was getting clothes and piercings by being a slut for her Mom. Hell, for all we know she was probably looking forward to turning 16, so they could get her a car.

[1Parker1]

rape1 http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Frape%2520) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (rhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gifp)
n.

The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.
from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape%20 (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape%20)

From what you just said, that's not the definition bro, sorry. Now, in the middle of intercorse, in Texas, a girl can say no and if the guy doesn't stop, that's rape ... but as long as it's consentual and within the age limits, 17+, that's legal intercourse.

No idea about Michigan.

It's called statutory rape. Having sex with a minor. And in most states 15 year olds are considered minors. It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the girl consents or not. Statutory rape is statutory rape.

[whottt]

15<17

It's called stautory rape...

You have a nice future ahead of you as a registered sex offender...

Best wishes.

[ChumpDumper]

Were all of ya'll THAT gullible at 15?We're you growing up in such a fucked up household at 15 where your mother offered you up to a pervert for her own happiness?

[Mixability]

15<17

It's called stautory rape...

You have a nice future ahead of you as a registered sex offender...

Best wishes.

Nice addition to your argument. :rolleyes

The boyfriend is guilty, the Mom is guilty and shouldn't have been up for bail, the girl needs psychiatric help if she knew no better.

[Mixability]

We're you growing up in such a fucked up household at 15 where your mother offered you up to a pervert for her own happiness?

No, but if I was offered up, I'd be smart enough to go to authorities, before notarizing my signature on a fuck contract.

[ChumpDumper]

No, but if I was offered up, I'd be smart enough to go to authorities, before notarizing my signature on a fuck contract.And who taught you to stand up for yourself?

[whottt]

Shit a 2 month old won't say no either...get after it boys.

[2Blonde]

They're not gonna understand. Maybe because they believe 15 year olds these days aren't capable of shooting up a school, selling drugs, and being a whore.
Actually your the one who doesn't understand... That is entirely the point. They are capable of all of all of those things you mentioned because the portions of their brains that controls rational thought are not fully developed yet. Otherwise they might better choices. It's the same reason a little kid gets manipulated by a predator. Everyone has a choice; stay or go, sell drugs/don't sell drugs, drink alcohol/ don't drink. At that age they still don't do a risk/benefit assessment. They just see 2 options and go with the one that offers the most immediate short term gain for them.

This is why kids will lie about a grade in school to their parents knowing full well that when the report card comes home in two weeks the parents will find out. But in the mean time they still don't get chewed out today and get to attend the concert this weekend and get to go out with their friends one more weekend before they are grounded for 2 months for lying.

They are perfectly capable of lying, cheating, stealing and they are also the perfect victim because they are always looking for acceptance. I watch this every day in my daughter and her friends. Girls that age want so badly to be accepted that they will do almost anything. It's a constant battle to teach your daughters to stand up for themselves and be strong, to not give in to peer pressure and feel the need to do what everyone else is doing. It's a lot worse than when I was a teen back in the stone ages.:spin

[Mixability]

And who taught you to stand up for yourself?

I agree that it's a huge assumption to think that these two could even raise a puppy right, but you have to assume the girl isn't retarted :lol : http://www.wzzm13.com/assetpool/images/0681013935_dailey_shawn.jpg

http://www.wzzm13.com/assetpool/images/06810131021_fitzgibbon_michael.jpg

[whottt]

Danyo...how old are you?

Because if you are over 18 you are proof that even above the age of 18 your brain isn't fully developed...

[ChumpDumper]

I agree that it's a huge assumption to think that these two could even raise a puppy right, but you have to assume the girl isn't retarted :lolI would argue that in many critical aspects, her development has been severly stunted. But it's not congenital.

[Mixability]

Danyo...how old are you?

Because if you are over 18 you are proof that even above the age of 18 your brain isn't fully developed...

I give up, speaking to YOU is a waste of time. If you spoke less like a moron and more like 2Blonde, who disagrees, but speaks intelligently to me, then maybe I wouldn't call you a stupid fuck.

[furry_spurry]

I agree with you - I just don't think anyone will understand where we're coming from.
So you would RATHER believe that the girl is a manipulative whore than that the man is a rapist pedophile?

[DarkReign]

I dont know, when I was 15, I knew some sleazy individuals perfectly capable of totally taking advantage of just this sort of situation. I can recall more girls capable of taking advantage of just such a situation than girls that werent.

Whatever. Sick bastards one way or the other, but this total crumbling of emotions for 15 year olds is amazing. Its like you guys forget what it was like when you were 15. At 15, every single person male or female knew what the fuck was up in the world. Contracts for sex, et all would not have been an issue unless they wanted it to be an issue.

So, maybe I am being tough on the young girl, but I use what I know about that age...my own experience.

Doesnt make it right or legal, its just the implication.

[ChumpDumper]

With whottt, you gotta give as good as you get, but you have to have a real argument to begin with.

[DarkReign]

I give up, speaking to YOU is a waste of time. If you spoke less like a moron and more like 2Blonde, who disagrees, but speaks intelligently to me, then maybe I wouldn't call you a stupid fuck.

Welcome to whotts world.

stupid....idiot...moron....fuckhead....loser....

I am smarter! RAWR!
I am veteran! RAWR!
I am whott, hear me RAWR!

[Mixability]

I would argue that in many critical aspects, her development has been severly stunted. But it's not congenital.

I know my side sounds totally unimaginable, but hear me out. I guess I'm just expecting this girl to be smart despite her stupid parents. I would've hoped she would've had outside guidance where she would've learned that what Mom and Dad say isn't always the right thing. Most of us were lucky to have intelligent parents and grow up to be like them, not you whott. :angel

Hopefully she didn't know it was wrong, so maybe it would hurt her less. Maybe she was tricked into thinking she was helping her Mom. Kinda like in the movies when someone's Dad leaves on a trip and leaves the oldest boy in charge. Maybe that's how these fucks got her to sign the contract. If thats the case, then I'm wrong. I apologize.

[DarkReign]

With whottt, you gotta give as good as you get, but you have to have a real argument to begin with.

Not even remotely true.

[Mixability]

So you would RATHER believe that the girl is a manipulative whore than that the man is a rapist pedophile?

the man is a rapist pedophile regardless, even without taking the 12 year old girl into consideration. I just can't believe that the 15 year old didn't know what she was doing, but with parents like those, it's not hard to believe.

[tlongII]

I dont know, when I was 15, I knew some sleazy individuals perfectly capable of totally taking advantage of just this sort of situation. I can recall more girls capable of taking advantage of just such a situation than girls that werent.

Whatever. Sick bastards one way or the other, but this total crumbling of emotions for 15 year olds is amazing. Its like you guys forget what it was like when you were 15. At 15, every single person male or female knew what the fuck was up in the world. Contracts for sex, et all would not have been an issue unless they wanted it to be an issue.

So, maybe I am being tough on the young girl, but I use what I know about that age...my own experience.

Doesnt make it right or legal, its just the implication.


That is not the point. The issue being debated is who is to blame for this incident. There is no way you can place blame on the 15 year-old in this situation.

[Mixability]

That is not the point. The issue being debated is who is to blame for this incident. There is no way you can place blame on the 15 year-old in this situation.

She was getting gifts, clothes, etc. in exchange for sex. But then again you might call that a "date"

[tlongII]

She was getting gifts, clothes, etc. in exchange for sex. But then again you might call that a "date"

What about that makes you think she is partly to blame for the crime? Your reasoning makes no sense to me.

[whottt]

I give up, speaking to YOU is a waste of time. If you spoke less like a moron and more like 2Blonde, who disagrees, but speaks intelligently to me, then maybe I wouldn't call you a stupid fuck.


Call me a stupid fuck all you want...the only reason you taken off ignore(which you have been on since like your second post ever) is so I could blast you...


I feel sorry for your daughter if you have one...because you are a shitty parent.

If that's insulting to you...good.

[whottt]

Not even remotely true.


Very true...Paed.


Listen to what you guys are saying...

Then think about if you had a daughter...

You have a 15 year old and you don't care if she's getting fucked by some scumbag...becaus she's old enough to know better?

No scratch that...you don't care if your wife whores her out?

What...if your 15 year old wants some attention from Daddy you going to give it to her? I mean she's old enough to make her own decisions right?


Stupid.

[Mixability]

What about that makes you think she is partly to blame for the crime? Your reasoning makes no sense to me.

IF, BIG IF, she knew what she was doing, then she was a prostitute working for her Mom.

if she didn't, then God help her, she'll need major counseling.

[2Blonde]

1) I'm a guy and I was 15 at one point - always pissed me off that people still saw me as a kid.

2) No, I'm not but I interact with a family member who is that age quite a bit - and hear the things she's done and is willing to do ... which I try and talk her out of. Her friends have always said they don't care about sex, because it's just that ... sex. You have a girl that age, am I right? You probably raised her good - and she doesn't think like that ... unfortunately, my her parents are and treat both her and her brother like shit ... so like I said, I'm not fucking dismissing the fact that this is probably her parents fault, BUT SHE CAN MAKE A CONCIOUS DECISION FOR HERSELF. Or do you still think they can't?
I'm trying to raise her right, but believe me every 15 year old girl on this planet thinks about sex! That's called hormones.:lol The raising right part is where you are trying to teach them to hold off on doing anything about it until they are both emotionally and physically ready to handle it. Which hopefully won't be until they are adults.
And I don't think a conscious decision made by a 15 year old is a rational decision. I am basing that on my daughter. She comes up with ideas for things all times that she claims are well thought out that are so freaking insane that I would be put away if I let her do them, and yet she thinks they are perfectly rational. Of course I'm going to let her and a dozen of her closest 14 & 15 year old friends go to a battle of the bands totally unsupervised for 16 hours that has a mosh pit with alcohol involved and no age limit but I can trust them. They wouldn't do anything wrong. She swears. Oh yeah, and she would promise not to take off the tank top she is going to wear over her bikini top that she is also wearing because it's supposed to get so hot there. She'll also take out the trash, not talk back and mop the floors, please, please, please???? NOT!!!! That is trip inside the mind of a teenage girl.

[Mixability]

Very true...Paed.


Listen to what you guys are saying...

Then think about if you had a daughter...

You have a 15 year old and you don't care if she's getting fucked by some scumbag...becaus she's old enough to know better?

No scratch that...you don't care if your wife whores her out?

What...if your 15 year old wants some attention from Daddy you going to give it to her? I mean she's old enough to make her own decisions right?


Stupid.

They were stupid parents, THAT we all agree on. She shouldnt be fucking at 15 regardless. I'd hope my daughter would know better, but any of our daughters WOULD know better. People like these make their kids like this. They grow up to not know better. To not care about anything but doing what Mommy and Daddy says. I think I realize the other side of the argument now.

[tlongII]

IF, BIG IF, she knew what she was doing, then she was a prostitute working for her Mom.

if she didn't, then God help her, she'll need major counseling.

It doesn't matter if she knew what she was doing...in fact I think she probably did since she signed that bogus contract. She's a 15 year-old that wants new clothes, piercings, whatever and her desire for "stuff" allowed those scumbags to take advantage of her. She could be slut for all I know, but she still can in no way be held accountable for this episode.

[Mixability]

I'm trying to raise her right, but believe me every 15 year old girl on this planet thinks about sex! That's called hormones.:lol The raising right part is where you are trying to teach them to hold off on doing anything about it until they are both emotionally and physically ready to handle it. Which hopefully won't be until they are adults.
And I don't think a conscious decision made by a 15 year old is a rational decision. I am basing that on my daughter. She comes up with ideas for things all times that she claims are well thought out that are so freaking insane that I would be put away if I let her do them, and yet she thinks they are perfectly rational. Of course I'm going to let her and a dozen of her closest 14 & 15 year old friends go to a battle of the bands totally unsupervised for 16 hours that has a mosh pit with alcohol involved and no age limit but I can trust them. They wouldn't do anything wrong. She swears. Oh yeah, and she would promise not to take off the tank top she is going to wear over her bikini top that she is also wearing because it's supposed to get so hot there. She'll also take out the trash, not talk back and mop the floors, please, please, please???? NOT!!!! That is trip inside the mind of a teenage girl.

I basing my argument on what I'd expect out of MY daughter too. That's where I went wrong. Imagine we had the mental capabilities of the two moron parents, then how COULDN'T our child be fucked up. It's sad really.

I'd raise my daughter to know what's right and wrong. The girl in this situation didn't have that privelege. I don't think she's to blame anymore.

[Mixability]

It doesn't matter if she knew what she was doing...in fact I think she probably did since she signed that bogus contract. She's a 15 year-old that wants new clothes, piercings, whatever and her desire for "stuff" allowed those scumbags to take advantage of her. She could be slut for all I know, but she still can in no way be held accountable for this episode.

She won't be held accountable regardless of if she knew or not, I agree, which is fucked up, because down the road, who knows how HER kids will turn out.

[dougp]

She won't be held accountable regardless of if she knew or not, I agree, which is fucked up, because down the road, who knows how HER kids will turn out.
The catch here Danyo, is everyone is too fuckin ignorant in this thread to realize that we AGREE WITH THEM THAT THE PARENTS ARE ENTIRELY TO BLAME. They're just too blind to realize that 15 year olds can have minds of their own and can think to themselves, "Well let's see ... I'm horny, I can fuck a dude and get clothes/any piercing I want ... THEN, I can turn him & my mother in, take the innocent victim side."

But, they won't get it ... there's really no point in arguing it because they're going to continue to be ignorant to the fact that there could be a possibility. Hell, I only brought it up because I saw it on fark and thought it'd be interesting to discuss ... now it's just turned into a flame war because some people can't realize shit.

[whottt]

Dark Reign...those Columbine Kid fucked up...

But the difference between those kids and this one...

The parents weren't participating in what those kids did...in this one they were encouraging it and taking full advatange of it.

I mean c'mon...

If she goes out and starts picking up tricks on her own...ok her bad.

In this case her freaking parents were the ones selling and buying her...

There's no excusing it...

And just think if this dumbshit had gotten her pregnant...

How'd you like to grow up with your sister as your mom?

[2Blonde]

They were stupid parents, THAT we all agree on. She shouldnt be fucking at 15 regardless. I'd hope my daughter would know better, but any of our daughters WOULD know better. People like these make their kids like this. They grow up to not know better. To not care about anything but doing what Mommy and Daddy says. I think I realize the other side of the argument now.
Danyo,
On a side note, you brought up a very interesting question for me. How often do we tell our kids to listen to us and do what we say? The old "Because I said so, that's why!" & "I'm your mother and you'll do as I say". I remember hearing those things growing up and I know I've said them to my child as well. Are we sabotaging our children's independent thinking when we talk to the like that?

[whottt]

The catch here Danyo, is everyone is too fuckin ignorant in this thread to realize that we AGREE WITH THEM THAT THE PARENTS ARE ENTIRELY TO BLAME. They're just too blind to realize that 15 year olds can have minds of their own and can think to themselves, "Well let's see ... I'm horny, I can fuck a dude and get clothes/any piercing I want ... THEN, I can turn him & my mother in, take the innocent victim side."

But, they won't get it ... there's really no point in arguing it because they're going to continue to be ignorant to the fact that there could be a possibility. Hell, I only brought it up because I saw it on fark and thought it'd be interesting to discuss ... now it's just turned into a flame war because some people can't realize shit.


The Law doesn't agree with you...and neither will most doctors or most of society.

Parents aren't always responsible for the actions of their children...true enough. But Parents are responsible for doing everything in their power to guide their children...and these parents don't have a leg to stand on.

When they sign the damn contract to buy and sell her they become totally accountable.

She is totally without blame in this...and they are beyond all doubt 100% responsible in this case.

And there's no legitimate argument you can make against it...medically, morally, legally...

[tlongII]

This is true - but I'd say not many would sign a freakin contract though, right? I mean c'mon, you gotta admit that is one f'ed up part of the story.

Outside of that, it's a normal case of stat. rape ... but because of that portion of the contract, I feel she's a bit obliged as well to share in some of the punishment ... though could probably get off on what you said.



She was coerced into signing the contract probably by the "ooo i get new clothes and get to pierce myself" thing going on.

You still seem to think I don't think it was possible that she's innocent - but I do. I just think that someone should kinda investigate it and determine that maybe she is partially to blame?

[dougp]

The Law doesn't agree with you...and neither will most doctors or most of society.

Parents aren't always responsible for the actions of their children...true enough. But Parents are responsible for doing everything in their power to guide their children...and these parents don't have a leg to stand on.

When they sign the damn contract to buy and sell her they become totally accountable.

She is totally without blame in this...and they are beyond all doubt 100% responsible in this case.

And there's no legitimate argument you can make against it...medically, morally, legally...
Actually you could make a medical reason for doing what she did - whether it's depression or just hormones in general.

We never argued that it was moral or legal bro ... just saying that the girl might be fucked up in the head enough to think she could come out in the good at the end ...

[MoSpur]

Who gives a crap whethere she knew what she was doing? It isn't right. She is 15. She probably wasn't brought up in a good home. If her mother was willing to let her daughter have sex with her boyfriend, the girl probably didn't have a good upbringing. The situation is wrong and disgusting. Just because the girl may have known what she was doing doesn't make it right.

[Mixability]

If she goes out and starts picking up tricks on her own...ok her bad.

IF?

[Mixability]

Danyo,
On a side note, you brought up a very interesting question for me. How often do we tell our kids to listen to us and do what we say? The old "Because I said so, that's why!" & "I'm your mother and you'll do as I say". I remember hearing those things growing up and I know I've said them to my child as well. Are we sabotaging our children's independent thinking when we talk to the like that?

I myself wouldn't tell them exactly what to do and what not to do. I would think raising them with common sense and intelligence and we should be able to trust our parenting skills enough to let them make their own decisions. I for example wasn't brought up with a curfew when I started high school. The only implications my parents made were that I make excellent grades in school. I graduated in the top 5% of my class and thats with partying on school nights and doing whatever else I wanted. They KNEW me to know that I'd value my education enough to not fuck it up. And no matter what whott says, I think I turned out alright. :fro

[MoSpur]

A 15 year old can make a lot of decisions and knows right from wrong. No doubt. However, two older people. People who lived with her. One of which is her mom, took advantage of her child's age and agreed to let her boyfriend have sex with her. That is wrong. Don't try to twist or flip it. Its wrong. Two adults who know better than the child took advantage.

[whottt]

Actually you could make a medical reason for doing what she did - whether it's depression or just hormones in general.

That wouldn't excuse the parents...it would incriminate them even more.


We never argued that it was moral or legal bro ... just saying that the girl might be fucked up in the head enough to think she could come out in the good at the end ...

And her parents encouraged it....

[Gatita]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/233279/DeadHorse2.GIF

[dougp]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/233279/DeadHorse2.GIF
http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/idhitit-29848.jpg