WTF are they playing for?

[SequSpur]

Is this the summer rec league for countries or what? It's not the olympics, so wgaf?

Dude, these NBA players are sacrificing the future of their franchises for nothing.

I don't know why it's even on TV.

BS.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Is this the summer rec league for countries or what? It's not the olympics, so wgaf?

Dude, these NBA players are sacrificing the future of their franchises for nothing.

I don't know why it's even on TV.

BS.

They just wanted you to be able to break in your new sports room in style.

[GoSpurs21]

I agree, I have never, or will ever support the decision for any Spur to play in any summer games. It is just stupid and doesnt benifit the Spurs in any way. All it does is burn out the player so that they have nothing left during the playoffs.

I only wish that the Spurs rivals have as many players in the summer games as possible

[zeleni]

Sequ, you are absolutely right. It's a crime. We should play against each other so Slovenia could really beat the USA in style. ;) Any you guys are lucky, you could have the Little Man of the Wayans brothers to play the point.

[ATX Spur]

These people are competition junkies and want to compete at a high level, even in the offseason? Or they're thrilled to represent the countries of their birth? (as i would be)

They like creating fodder for bored NBA fans to lambast against?

Any of these answers are sufficient for me.

[Solid D]

Don't watch it, Sequ. Just go back to watching your figure skating world championships.

[ChumpDumper]

WTF are they skating for?

[velik_m]

i get what they're skating for, but whats with the clothes and music? what does that have to do with sport?

[Renu_]

These are all very interesting questions. I got another one:

Why do they breath? It's all very mysterious..

But serious, u can look at it as preparations for the olympics. The teams can't just show up there and play every four years.. players need more games together.

Well this is just my conspiracy theory.

[T Park]

It is BS.

When supposedly the NBA is your number 1 goal in your career, and a said team plays you 11 million, you commit by fucking off in the offseason getting hurt like Parker, Like Ginobili WILL.


The teams need to start putting there fucking feet down.

[cheguevara]

The ignorance is in full force in this thread.

They are playing to see what country in the world is the best at basketball.

[doldrums]

this thread demonstrates the lowering of American IQ's. I am sometimes mystified at my fellow countrymen. It appears to them that all in life is $ and when you pay someone you basically own their existence. I thought slavery was abolished. Boy I wonder if Cav fans and Heat fans are livid about Lebron and Wade? No, they're probably not. Because you see they are are playing for the US. It's the old double standard combined with cultural imperialism.

[T Park]

this thread demonstrates the lowering of American IQ's. I am sometimes mystified at my fellow countrymen. It appears to them that all in life is $ and when you pay someone you basically own their existence. I thought slavery was abolished. Boy I wonder if Cav fans and Heat fans are livid about Lebron and Wade? No, they're probably not. Because you see they are are playing for the US. It's the old double standard combined with cultural imperialism.

I bet Cav fan and Heat fan would definately pissed if their franchise players broke a finger on their shooting hand.


Especially a season ticket holder who pays a disgusting amount of money to watch them play and then be exhausted or hurt during the season.

[T Park]

They are playing to see what country in the world is the best at basketball.



Id have no problem with that.

If I was a team owner Id say do it without the players I pay freakin 11 million a year to.

[velik_m]

It is BS.

When supposedly the NBA is your number 1 goal in your career, and a said team plays you 11 million, you commit by fucking off in the offseason getting hurt like Parker, Like Ginobili WILL.


The teams need to start putting there fucking feet down.

if you don't support team's policy you can always boycott them.

[picnroll]

Is this the summer rec league for countries or what? It's not the olympics, so wgaf?

Dude, these NBA players are sacrificing the future of their franchises for nothing.

I don't know why it's even on TV.

BS.
Hey if yu were a high ranking FIBA official and could make millions, live like a king off the revenue, while someone else footed the bill for the high priced labor and took all the risks why the fuck wouldn't you do it?

[hendrix]

I bet Cav fan and Heat fan would definately pissed if their franchise players broke a finger on their shooting hand.
Especially a season ticket holder who pays a disgusting amount of money to watch them play and then be exhausted or hurt during the season.

Do something with your life dude.
NBA is not everything. Your TV set is not everything. Your couch is not everything. Hamburgers are not everything.

[zeleni]

A player should never be questioned whether he wants to play for his country. FIBA, FIFA and other world sport organisations with IOC are just superior. Sports are not meant for money, they are meant for recreactional reasons. So owner of a team has no decision over who will attend the tournament.

It is similar wil football, where players get too injured, FIFA's tournament is never altered, but the leagues calendar shortens.

On the other hand you have bussinesmen like Shaq, who decides that taking part in a tournament instead of endorsments doesn't hold up. But that is allright. But no coach or club managment can say something like that instead of him or try to write in something as proposterous in a contract.

Only fans who don't buy players jerseys couse he didn't show up in the Olympics, can motivate a bussines-kind-of-player. NBA is just the greatest league. But it doesn't own the sport and it never should.

[T Park]

Do something with your life dude.
NBA is not everything. Your TV set is not everything. Your couch is not everything. Hamburgers are not everything


Why dont you worry about yourself, dude.



Sports are not meant for money, they are meant for recreactional reasons. So owner of a team has no decision over who will attend the tournament.



Lots of things werent meant for money.


Get your head out of the freakin clouds.

[TDMVPDPOY]

same with soccer/football, not many clubs like to release players to play international friendlies or matches, cause it is the clubs payin their wages and insurance.

[10-tka]

NBA is boring, no passion no tears, no smiles, NBA is just a game...

[zeleni]

Lots of things werent meant for money.
Get your head out of the freakin clouds.

No, horses, pigs and rooster fights were allways for the money. While no one ever owned the amphiteather.

Or let me be more specific:
Birdcage was always a wrapper.

[Pero]

When supposedly the NBA is your number 1 goal in your career

Supposedly is the key word here. While getting in the NBA is a big goal, I think that for most international players number 1 goal is to be a champion with your national team, representing your country. It`s just that americans somehow don`t understand that...

[T Park]

NBA is boring,

No that distinction goes to Soccer.

Guess you missed the NBA Playoffs this year.


Talk about ignorant.


No, horses, pigs and rooster fights were allways for the money

WTF

Now were comparing NBA ball to cock fights?

Good lord.

[T Park]

Supposedly is the key word here. While getting in the NBA is a big goal, I think that for most international players number 1 goal is to be a champion with your national team, representing your country. It`s just that americans somehow don`t understand that

Then don't accept the big money and don't agree to come to america.

THat fucking simple.

[hendrix]

Is the same old story.
Players make their living out of some sport and have lots of fun.
Bored people demand players to entertain them.

Simple put, is like if your boss asked you to not go out on weekends because you will get a cold and will miss some days of work or won't work at 100%, etc, etc.
The employers may cry all they want, but luckily there are still some rights for the people.

[velik_m]

Then don't accept the big money and don't agree to come to america.

THat fucking simple.

Then don't give them big money and don't invite them to america.

That fucking simple.

[Pero]

No that distinction goes to Soccer.

Guess you missed the NBA Playoffs this year.


Talk about ignorant.

Guess you missed the soccer WC this year.

Talk about ignorant....

[hendrix]

Then don't accept the big money and don't agree to come to america.
THat fucking simple.

How about american players you dumbass.
As usual for ignorants like you, trying to blame on the immigrants.

[T Park]

Guess you missed the soccer WC this year.



No i watched.


The 1-0 snore fests were too much for me to bear.



Then don't give them big money and don't invite them to america.

That fucking simple.





:lol


Hey, after the experience with Beno Udrih, Scola, and now Javtokas, I wouldn't have drafted another euro for the rest of existence.


But you euros should just chill out, your as usual, wrong.

[Pero]

No i watched.

Then you should know, that many many millions of people disagree with you.........

[T Park]

How about american players you dumbass.
As usual for ignorants like you, trying to blame on the immigrants.

Trying to blame immigrants?

I blame nothing on immigrants, immigrants are what made this country great.



What about american players?

If your trying to make me sound like a hypocrit, you can't.

I was 100% dead set against ANY Spur playing in this fiasco.


Now with Parker hurt, its proven my fucking point.
But keep talking out of your ass like you know what your talking about.

[Solid D]

It's much better if NBA players get injured in pick-up games down at the Fonde rec center in Houston. Those injuries heal much quicker than FIBA injuries.

Meanwhile, Sequ once again starts stuff and crawls out from under the pile with an impish smirk.

[zeleni]

WTF

Now were comparing NBA ball to cock fights?

Good lord.

Not that you are saying that owner should ban a player representing a country? So he own his employee like ... yes a horse owner.

Hey, it's like the Admiral who hardly ever raced the Seabiscuit couse of the owner who didn't like the chances. And I can find even better examples. Basketball players are not a meat or a pet and NBA is not equal to World Cup, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion.

UEFA's Champions League is like the NBA (not really but, at least similar). Any season the games have more ratings than the NBA playoffs. But World Cup is still the greatest tournament in the sport. The key word is WORLD. not national. WORLD.

UEFA is a Continental alliance. That means as big as the NBA since you have Canada involved. UEFA can follow bussiness logic in making a tournament interesting and clubs happy. But WORLD CUP IS A WORLD CUP.

And so Playoffs can be interesting, NCAA true and inspiring, but that is not more important than an entire world competing in one discipline. And I know you are not a child, so you DO understand that simple logic.

[velik_m]

Sequ is my favourite poster. People take him way too serious.

[Solid D]

http://images.chron.com/photos/2006/07/19/3022361/311xInlineGallery.jpg

Photo of Sam Cassell and T.J. Ford playing at the Fonde. Photo was taken this summer.

[sendman]

I bet Cav fan and Heat fan would definately pissed if their franchise players broke a finger on their shooting hand.


Especially a season ticket holder who pays a disgusting amount of money to watch them play and then be exhausted or hurt during the season.

And I bet that nobody woud give a s**t if you break something.

[Pero]

Meanwhile, Sequ once again starts stuff and crawls out from under the pile with an impish smirk.

:lol :lol :lol

[Kori Ellis]

I don't understand TPark on this subject at all.

In several other threads he talks about the pride of America. He talks about go get 'em Team USA, rah rah. But in this thread, he doesn't understand players having pride and desire to play for their national team.

Sorry TPark but you are the ultimate hypocrite in this thread.

[Kori Ellis]

To answer Sequ's question, to a lot of teams. the WC is as important as the Olympics.

[mavs>spurs2]

WTF are they playing for? Pride. It's that simple.

[T Park]

In several other threads he talks about the pride of America. He talks about go get 'em Team USA, rah rah. But in this thread, he doesn't understand players having pride and desire to play for their national team.

Sorry TPark but you are the ultimate hypocrite in this thread.



I root for the team.

Yes no bones about it.

Do I think pros should be there? Not at all.

It should be the best amateur players, cause thats what the Olympics is, and this is a carry over, olympic competition.

Not at all a hypocrit.



And I bet that nobody woud give a s**t if you break something


I have nothing to do with it, stay on topic 5 year old.



Hey, it's like the Admiral who hardly ever raced the Seabiscuit couse of the owner who didn't like the chances. And I can find even better examples. Basketball players are not a meat or a pet and NBA is not equal to World Cup, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion.

UEFA's Champions League is like the NBA (not really but, at least similar). Any season the games have more ratings than the NBA playoffs. But World Cup is still the greatest tournament in the sport. The key word is WORLD. not national. WORLD.

UEFA is a Continental alliance. That means as big as the NBA since you have Canada involved. UEFA can follow bussiness logic in making a tournament interesting and clubs happy. But WORLD CUP IS A WORLD CUP.

And so Playoffs can be interesting, NCAA true and inspiring, but that is not more important than an entire world competing in one discipline. And I know you are not a child, so you DO understand that simple logic.


You do nothing to contend the point of players that get paid by NBA teams, big money, shouldn't play.

Nothing.


Photo of Sam Cassell and T.J. Ford playing at the Fonde. Photo was taken this summer.

Im sure Clipper fan wouldn't be happy.

THere isn't a Raptor fan so its hard to gauge the give a shit level of them.

[Kori Ellis]

TPark, yes you are a hypocrite. You constantly talk about national pride. So why do you think these guys don't have a right to play for their national teams?

You act like if they weren't playing for their national teams, they'd be laying at home in a bubble not getting hurt.

You don't think Bruce Bowen is going to play basketball every day even though he got cut. Of course he is. You don't think that NBA players play scrimmage games all summer long where they can get hurt. Of course they do.

[mavs>spurs2]

I like watching NBA players in these games. It adds alot to the excitement. At the same time i would be pissed if Dirk somehow got hurt. I think the choice should be between the player and the team. The team that overpays that player should have a say in whether or not they risk injury in these games. But this competition is a great way to get better, and you can also argue that a player could get hurt just as easily in pick-up games at a gym. When it's all said and done it should be between the player and their respective team.

[ATX Spur]

Why create lame threads with little substance to watch a couple dozen people call you an idiot?

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

NBA is just the greatest league. But it doesn't own the sport and it never should.


Amen to that. The NBA isnt the be all and end all of basketball. It is the best and most exciting league but not the onle basketball competition that is important.

Its just ur unfortunate yet typical American ignorance that makes some people think their country and leagues are all that matters.

[SequSpur]

Hey if yu were a high ranking FIBA official and could make millions, live like a king off the revenue, while someone else footed the bill for the high priced labor and took all the risks why the fuck wouldn't you do it?


BINGO!!

Where was this shit uh.... lets say 5 or so years ago?

[SequSpur]

It's much better if NBA players get injured in pick-up games down at the Fonde rec center in Houston. Those injuries heal much quicker than FIBA injuries.

Meanwhile, Sequ once again starts stuff and crawls out from under the pile with an impish smirk.

Hey blow me....

I don't see any reason why a real NBA should participate in these bullshit games.

I don't see these dudes playing in the summer leagues....

[SequSpur]

To answer Sequ's question, to a lot of teams. the WC is as important as the Olympics.

Maybe to Slovenia...

The Americans and the Argentineans are concerned about the Olympics.

The Americans don't want to lose again because they were embarassed last time.

It would've been better to throw a college team in there, let them get blown out and the USA would've had a reason.

Now, when they drop again, there is no reason, its just a stupid idea.

[Kori Ellis]

BINGO!!

Where was this shit uh.... lets say 5 or so years ago?

The basketball World Championships have been going on since 1950.

Where have you been?

You didn't watch the US lose in Indianapolis in 2002? :wtf

[Solid D]

I don't see any reason why a real NBA should participate in these bullshit games.

I don't see these dudes playing in the summer leagues....

NBA players, even good ones, play during the summer. The photo I posted is an example of a Summer League that goes on in Houston. Lots of NBA stars have played at the Fonde in the summer. Why you don't know this is beyond me but hey, if you don't know...you don't know.

[Solid D]

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/hoops-tours-events/houston-pro-city-summer-league-ar33086.html

Houston Pro City Summer League07.7.2006 - Updated on 07.7.2006

Fonde Community Center located at 110 Sabine Street
Houston , TX

July 10 - August 16, 2006
Every Mondays and Wednesdays

Last year’s participants included, Sam Cassell, Cuttino Mobley, Rashard Lewis, Damon Jones, Ron Artest, Steve Francis, Moochie Norris, Reggie Evans, James Posey, Royal Ivey, Kendrick Perkins, Mike James, Nick Van Exel, J.R. Smith, Damon Stoudamire, Ansu Sesay, Charles Smith, Jonathan Bender, Terrance Morris, Jumaine Jones, Derek Anderson and Ndudi Ebi. This year the list will increase with names like Penny Hardaway, Rasual Butler, Anthony Goldwire, Emeka Okafor, Mo Williams, Jason Williams (ex-Duke star), Gerald Green and T.J. Ford just to name a few.

For more info on the Houston Pro City Summer League, click here. Houston Pro City Summer League (http://www.houstonprocity.com/)

[picnroll]

No problem. Play the games. But then, after expenses are accounted for (and not the lavish ones that the FIBA officials alot themsleves) apportion the revenue from selling TV rights, etc. back to the pro teams that provide their players. Afterall there is nothing non-profit about the World Championship or the Olympics for that matter so why should teams provide players who they are paying for playing basketball to let someone else make money off of them playing basketball for free.

[ducks]

did not ron artest play in the summer leagues?

[SequSpur]

Exhibition games... :rolleyes

[cheguevara]

plain and simple. National pride beats club pride. It's like your job vs. your country, what would you pick. Get over it Tpark, tough shit, players value more Olympics + WC than old boring ass NBA.

and as we speak Argentina is the owner of the world in basketball, let's see if US can take it away from them...

[Cherry]

I don't see any reason why a real NBA should participate in these bullshit games.



Why not? Are they made of cristal or what? :lol

The players accepted the risk, they took up the challenge with pride, heart, sacrifice, and you have nothing to do about that.

But...of course...they are phenomena that are beyond your understanding. :lol

.

[smeagol]

But you euros should just chill out, your as usual, wrong.
It's not only Euros who have an opposite view to yours. It's Argentines and other Latins and even many Americans. Actually the only ones who opine like you are Sequ (when Sequ is on your side, you're are sure you are right!) and picnroll (I'm really surprised about one of the most intelligent posters taking such a narrowminded position).

So, who's wrong again?

[ducks]

no one is right or wrong in this issue
I can see both sides views

I know if james gets hurt and can not play at all in the nba
stern may think differently about this games

[Pero]

Maybe to Slovenia...

The Americans and the Argentineans are concerned about the Olympics.

The Americans don't want to lose again because they were embarassed last time.

It would've been better to throw a college team in there, let them get blown out and the USA would've had a reason.

Now, when they drop again, there is no reason, its just a stupid idea.

I bet right now the Argentine team wants the WC title more than the olympic title, since they`d want revenge after the loss on the previous WC, and they already have an olympic title. And americans didn`t look much concerned about the olympics last time...
Though you are right, the last US WC team was embarassed, and couldn`t handle their losses...

Why do you think the US team will drop again? It`s the strongest team in years, and look like it has a good mentality.

[Pero]

No problem. Play the games. But then, after expenses are accounted for (and not the lavish ones that the FIBA officials alot themsleves) apportion the revenue from selling TV rights, etc. back to the pro teams that provide their players. Afterall there is nothing non-profit about the World Championship or the Olympics for that matter so why should teams provide players who they are paying for playing basketball to let someone else make money off of them playing basketball for free.

You forget, not every national association is as rich as NBA, a lot are much poorer. The players get some money, and for some it`s not so little, except the ones that play in the NBA. How could national associations afford to pay so much to their players?
Though you are maybe right in that FIBA should take care of this better. And I can`t really think of where the money is going, though I believe some of it goes to national associations. And they do have to pay for the NBA players that play for their teams, though it might look like nothing compared to their wages...
Were people complaining about the same thing when it was the first time that NBA players played? I`d imagine it was the same back then.

[picnroll]

A few years back they had a piece on 60 Minutes called "The Princes of the Olympics" about the lifestyle the high ranking International Olympic Committee members lived. They can hold their own with Saudi princes.

[WalterBenitez]

Is this the summer rec league for countries or what? It's not the olympics, so wgaf?

Dude, these NBA players are sacrificing the future of their franchises for nothing.

I don't know why it's even on TV.

BS.

I asume that Pride and Honor doesn't mean anything for you :rolleyes

[BgT]

Do something with your life dude.
NBA is not everything. Your TV set is not everything. Your couch is not everything. Hamburgers are not everything.

:lol I think you really got the point here. Fat ass with a guy named TPark sitting on it can't really see beyond his TV and some juicy chicken wings. :lol

[Renu_]

These are all ways to see great things happen: NBA, WC, Olympics.. We all like to see winners do their thing. Now, what we don't want to see is our heroes getting beat from some guys we don't even know. So we like to play on our territory on our rules so nothing can get wrong. It's all very natural. USA is still nb1 in the world so lose your fear. Show little courage. Beat FIBA, beat the refs, "win" the crowd, and most important - beat the teams. C'mon you can do it. I'll be rooting for your team, but not on tuesday against slovenia. ;)

[hendrix]

"Magic" Johnson. Michael Jordan. Larry Bird and so on... have played for the US National Team in Olympic Competition.
Reggie Miller, Alonzo Mourning, Shaquille O'Neal, Joe Dumars, Dominique Wilkins, etc, etc have played for US National Team in a World Championship (1994).
So I think Stern can risk to lose "Lebron" (ooooh...incomparable Lebron... Jordan is nothing compared to you... oohhh).

[ALVAREZ6]

T Park is a proven retard.











End.

[danyel]

There is an obvious difference between international fans and at least some USA fans. For us is national team 1st, local team 2nd.

We couldnt care less how much a player is being paid, how much money the owner losses if that player gets injured, its their problem. Tickets or t-shirts wont cost more whether someone gets injured or not.

We don't mind the money side of the issue.

Of course I can see there is an issue there, but thats something they will have to work out between FIBA and team owners. Same thing is happening between FIFA and soccer teams and soccer national teams play way more often, not just for a couple of months every year.

[WalterBenitez]

There is an obvious difference between international fans and at least some USA fans. For us is national team 1st, local team 2nd.

We couldnt care less how much a player is being paid, how much money the owner losses if that player gets injured, its their problem. Tickets or t-shirts wont cost more whether someone gets injured or not.

We don't mind the money side of the issue.

Of course I can see there is an issue there, but thats something they will have to work out between FIBA and team owners. Same thing is happening between FIFA and soccer teams and soccer national teams play way more often, not just for a couple of months every year.

I do agree, not saying one point of view is better than the other, only saying that Intl speaking, the National Team is higher and bigger than any other thing, at least for me

[nbascribe]

Okay Sequ let me answer your first question. They, meaning the US team, is playing for an Olympic berth into Beijing. USA Basketball has been so dismal in the past few international tournaments that we have to actually re-qualify for the Olympics. That is what this team is playing for.

Now should NBA players be in this mix? I don't think so. I do not think that NBA players are the best players for this style of tournament. I have consistently proposed that use players who understand the FIBA rules, who have played overseas and who are hungry enough. I've actually said it this past week on Ticket 760 and of course David Chancellor doesn't ge the reasoning behind it. Right now I've even penned an op/ed piece that says that Team USA needs to scrap this "Dream Team" concept once and for all and find twelve players from the NBDL, CBA, FIBA and the top four players WHO WERE NOT DRAFTED this year, form a barn storming team with corporate sponsorship, find a coach who wants to win on the international level, and then let this team barn storm across Europe in exhibition play against the top FIBA teams in Europe.

In my scenario this team not only gets the experience of playing against the best Europe has to offer, but this is the team that represents us at the World Championships and at the Olympics.

But of course that doesn't make too much sense to those who think that the NBA should be dictating Team USA and USA Basketball. Believe it or not, David Stern is being a serious hypocrite on this issue. He will chastize American basketball but he will not allow USA Basketball pick a diverse team that has the best American ball players representing this country in these tournaments.

[picnroll]

Why does the Olympics have an age limit for its soccer competition. Probably because the clubs got tired of having their players getting "borrowed" every other day and that's the deal they made with the Olymic committee robber barons. They should put the same age limit on basketball.

[smeagol]

Why does the Olympics have an age limit for its soccer competition. Probably because the clubs got tired of having their players getting "borrowed" every other day and that's the deal they made with the Olymic committee robber barons. They should put the same age limit on basketball.
Soccer clubs have to "lend" their players to the NTs much more often than NBA teams do. There's continental tournaments (Copa America, the Euro Cup), there's the World Cup qualifiers, the World Cup itself . . . hell, there's fucking friendly games where clubs allow their international players play for their NTs (there is one game between Brazil and Argentina coming up in September where Messi, Tevez and other Argies playing abroad are part of the squad)).

Actually, soccer teams have to do it in the middle of the local tournament (WorldCup qualifiers are year round) which would be the equivalent of the NBA teams letting their stars go an play for their NTs in March.

Don't bring a soccer analogy. You will probably get you ass handed in this discussion if you do.

[picnroll]

I don't know the soccer situation well at all but I don't think teams "have" to release players and I do think there are some teams that don't release their star players for a lot of "minor" competitions. and there are some tournaments that star players chose not to go to. I know that's the case for some US players like Claudio Reyna and some US goalies that play or have played in the British leagues.

[picnroll]

So why does the Olympics have an age limit on soccer?

[velik_m]

So why does the Olympics have an age limit on soccer?

because FIFA doesn?t want competition with their WC.

[nbascribe]

somehow it's always easy to slide a football reasoning into a basketball thread.....lol

[picnroll]

because FIFA doesn?t want competition with their WC.
So how does FIFA set the age limits for the Olympic competition?

[smeagol]

I don't know the soccer situation well at all but I don't think teams "have" to release players and I do think there are some teams that don't release their star players for a lot of "minor" competitions.

I told you not to bring the soccer analogy. You do not listen to me :lol

All soccer clubs have to release their players for the WC, it's qualifiers, the continental tournaments (which you have dubbed as "minor") and some friendlies, which are call FIFA dates (fechas FIFA in Spanish).

You started the paragraph with the right concept "I don't know the soccer situation well at all . . .", but screwed it up later :lol


and there are some tournaments that star players chose not to go to.

I have never heard of a star soccer player not wanting to play for their NT in one of the tounaments I have stated above. It is unheard of.


I know that's the case for some US players like Claudio Reyna and some US goalies that play or have played in the British leagues.

Name the torunament please. I can bet half of what I own it is not the qualifiers or the WC.

[smeagol]

So why does the Olympics have an age limit on soccer?

I don't know the exact answer. I will try to find out by doing some googling.

I suppose it is because soccer, being the most popular sport in the World, already has mayor competitions, therefore, the Olympic games are not that prestigious (for soccer fans).

I would not be surprised if in the future, the age limit is eliminated. Already you can have 3 players per squad which are over the age limit of (is it 23?)

[picnroll]

I'll bow out of soccer discussion. :lol.

But Reyna was playing some important game with his Scottish team and didn't play in a regional qualifier for the US.

If it's true thet FIFA supercedes a team and it's contractedplayers then it must be some communist organization. :lol

[v2freak]

It's not only Euros who have an opposite view to yours. It's Argentines and other Latins and even many Americans. Actually the only ones who opine like you are Sequ (when Sequ is on your side, you're are sure you are right!) and picnroll (I'm really surprised about one of the most intelligent posters taking such a narrowminded position).

So, who's wrong again?

To say that everyone who does not agree with your position is "wrong" is quite narrowminded in itself, wouldn't you agree?

I can see where TPark and Sequ are coming from. Injuries have been a common fear for Spurs fans. We all know how they can make or break a season. Let's admit it: Plantar Fascitis was something we all knew and hated. But as TPark pointed out, the whole Parker-injury situation has only served to validate these concerns. This is a Spurs forum, first and foremost. That's why we're all here; we're all Spurs fans, although it's become evident that others are player first - Spurs second.

I didn't mean that to be a knock on anyone. I understand everyone's priorities are different. The flaming is quite senseless, as are the 'getting hit by a bus' or 'catching a cold' analogies. I'm not saying that US management is completely not to blame. One astute poster has already mentioned that the US shouldn't pay these guys so much and I agree. It's stupid to blame the international players that make money here - why blame a dog for eating the food that was placed in front of him? But to use American arrogance/ignorance as a scapegoat is asinine.

Sequ, the players play for their countries. They value their teams differently. I don't like it, but I can certainly understand it. And because I'm not Pop, RC or whoever can actually do something about it, I've been pretty quiet about expressing my opinions on such a touchy matter. Props to those who did.

[smeagol]

Guys, it's simple.

For almost every huma being, NT >>>>>>>>>>>>>> local team.

I'd rather have Argentina win the next 5 WC than my local team, River Plate, ever win a local tornament in my lifetime.

[velik_m]

But Reyna was playing some important game with his Scottish team and didn't play in a regional qualifier for the US.


It could be that his club "suggested" or "hinted" that it might be better that he plays for them instead. This happens in basketball too, we're missing Sasha and last year Smodis, because of that player putting his club career infront of his NT. Some players are like that, others not.

[picnroll]

Just curious. I wonder if some of it has to do with the fact that the best basketball players from most countries gravitiate to a foreign team in the US so you only have peripheral involvement with the player and the team. Same goes for Latin soccer fans who see their best players going to clubs in Europe.

Question: Would a rabid English Manchester United fan rather see Man win the highest club level championship or England win the WC? I know I'd rather see the Spurs win the next NBA championship than the US win the next 5 Olympics.

[velik_m]

So how does FIFA set the age limits for the Olympic competition?

competitions in the olympics are organized by their respective federation. FIFA sets the refs and rules for Olympic soccer.

EDIT: also OC might not want a too big/good soccer tournament, since it might overshadow all their other competitions.

[picnroll]

competitions in the olympics are organized by their respective federation. FIFA sets the refs and rules for Olympic soccer.

EDIT: also OC might not want a too big/good soccer tournament, since it might overshadow all their other competitions.
Thanks.

Like I said it's always about the money and the power/control in the end.

btw no way the OC wouldn't want a bigger soccer tournament if they could get it. $$$

[velik_m]

Thanks.

Like I said it's always about the money and the power/control in the end.

btw no way the OC wouldn't want a bigger soccer tournament if they could get it. $$$

yes they wouldn't, if getting it meant no air time for other sports. Many sports federation main income is olympics.

[WalterBenitez]

So why does the Olympics have an age limit on soccer?

FIFA :sleep
You know nothing is compared with FIFA World Cup

[WalterBenitez]

Guys, it's simple.

For almost every huma being, NT >>>>>>>>>>>>>> local team.

I'd rather have Argentina win the next 5 WC than my local team, River Plate, ever win a local tornament in my lifetime.

hmmmmm, I DO AGREE with your reasoning :wakeup

[WalterBenitez]

Just curious. I wonder if some of it has to do with the fact that the best basketball players from most countries gravitiate to a foreign team in the US so you only have peripheral involvement with the player and the team. Same goes for Latin soccer fans who see their best players going to clubs in Europe.

Question: Would a rabid English Manchester United fan rather see Man win the highest club level championship or England win the WC? I know I'd rather see the Spurs win the next NBA championship than the US win the next 5 Olympics.

I am not English, but please English people let me answer .... YES ... FIFA WC is the biggest event form almost every Human being in this Planet (ok, we know USA doesn't share our passion). :king

When you represent your contrypeople, you are playing for your colours, for your COUNTRY, it is a question of pride and honor; it is hard to explain starting from Intl point of view ... for us sound so natural ... even for those little devils from Manchester. :vomit:

[ShoogarBear]

Guys, it's simple.

For almost every huma being, NT >>>>>>>>>>>>>> local team.

I'd rather have Argentina win the next 5 WC than my local team, River Plate, ever win a local tornament in my lifetime.I would guess that for most US citizens, it's exactly the opposite.

Ask how many Spur fans here would give up any of their three NBA titles for the 02 WC or the 04 Olympics.

I think the WC and Olympics are important and want to see our players there, but they're not as important as the NBA.

[hendrix]

Question: Would a rabid English Manchester United fan rather see Man win the highest club level championship or England win the WC? I know I'd rather see the Spurs win the next NBA championship than the US win the next 5 Olympics.

mmm... tough one.
I'd rather see my local soccer team win a local championship than Argentina to win a WC heheh.
But thats maybe because my team has 4 local titles... and Smeagol's River Plate has more than 30 :)

[MannyIsGod]

People do not own athleates. They are employees, but employees in the end will still do as they wish. If someone wants to play for their national team - which I think is a much greater honor than playing for the San Antonio Spurs or any other NBA team - then I think they should take advantadge of the opportunity to its fullest.

If an NBA owner feels strongly against this, they can write it into their contracts. But that is just another thing you have to bargain for. If you make players agree to your terms, you will have to agree to theirs. It is a negotiation and just because the owners pay the checks doesnt' mean they wield all the power. Not by a huge longshot.

The bottom line is that people like Tpark want their desires - in this case the Spurs chances for a title - to be addressed first. I think the players are allowed a say in what they want to do well before anyone is allowed to decide for them.

[zeleni]

People do not own athleates. They are employees, but employees in the end will still do as they wish. If someone wants to play for their national team - which I think is a much greater honor than playing for the San Antonio Spurs or any other NBA team - then I think they should take advantadge of the opportunity to its fullest.

If an NBA owner feels strongly against this, they can write it into their contracts. But that is just another thing you have to bargain for. If you make players agree to your terms, you will have to agree to theirs. It is a negotiation and just because the owners pay the checks doesnt' mean they wield all the power. Not by a huge longshot.

The bottom line is that people like Tpark want their desires - in this case the Spurs chances for a title - to be addressed first. I think the players are allowed a say in what they want to do well before anyone is allowed to decide for them.

No, no one can write in a contract for a player not to play in FIBA tournaments. No court would back it up. That would be possible only as a protection after already harboring an injury ( omnipresent Spurs medical staff etc). Slovenian players had problems especialy in football, since they were in and out of club while they never had a true spot in their team. Club cannot touch them, since they are protected as a member of a national team. But club can take serious measures like putting them on a bench or inactive list. That can even happen to a great player in football, if he doesn't behave.

Thought is that every nation deserves a good and stabile national team. Every club deserves just what his manager and players are willing to put in. Owner can always make mistakes and managers can be stupid, but national teams have to produce the optimum performance.

Clubs have so smart owners and genious coaches, but national teams have the glory of inspiring the youth who likes the sport being played. Thats how it should always be.

[smeagol]

Ask how many Spur fans here would give up any of their three NBA titles for the 02 WC or the 04 Olympics.
If the US wins three or four olympic bronce medals in a row while sending teams of NBA players who are very talented but simply not good enough (a la 2004), let's see if Americans still think the same way, or many would start trading their NBA (or future NBA) titles for a gold medal.

[ShoogarBear]

If the US wins three or four olympic bronce medals in a row while sending teams of NBA players who are very talented but simply not good enough (a la 2004), let's see if Americans still think the same way, or many would start trading their NBA (or future NBA) titles for a gold medal.I can almost guarantee you that will never happen. The only ones who would say that would be people who are college-only fans, but I can also guarantee that none of them would trade an NCAA championship for their favorite team for any gold medals.

Just look at baseball. Nobody really cares how the US does in the Olympics or the World Baseball Classic. I bet not one fan would give up an NCAA or World Series title for one of those others.

Sure, people will get upset if the US doesn't win gold medals, but that will NEVER be the priority in this country.

[smeagol]

I can almost guarantee you that will never happen. The only ones who would say that would be people who are college-only fans, but I can also guarantee that none of them would trade an NCAA championship for their favorite team for any gold medals.

Just look at baseball. Nobody really cares how the US does in the Olympics or the World Baseball Classic. I bet not one fan would give up an NCAA or World Series title for one of those others.

Sure, people will get upset if the US doesn't win gold medals, but that will NEVER be the priority in this country.
Interesting

[smeagol]

This is a Spurs forum, first and foremost. That's why we're all here; we're all Spurs fans, although it's become evident that others are player first - Spurs second.
No, it's country first (National Team), Spurs second.

[Spurologist]

But Reyna was playing some important game with his Scottish team and didn't play in a regional qualifier for the US.



:lol

Reyna plays for an English club, Manchester City, that got demolished 3-0 by Chelsea. He probably didn't play in the qualifier because he was injured for most of the months leading to the world cup.

Soccer is definately important to me and I am a HUGE soccer fan. It was Cameroon that won the olympics in 2000 by beating spain. I will never forget that moment. It would be nice if an African team can also win the World Cup. Maybe in South Africa in 2010

[MannyIsGod]

One reason these things aren't as important here is because Americans automaticaly assume they are the best. Seriously, we don't care how much we stack up against other teams because we feel we're the best hands down. Even when we don't win these competitions, we never for a second think Argentina is better.

I wouldn't trade the Spurs title for Olympic Gold, but if I was a player, I would cherish the Olympic Gold way more than an NBA title. I simply feel its a great honor to play for your country. When your country comes to you and says that you are the best and they want you to represent them, I think is is huge.

[WalterBenitez]

One reason these things aren't as important here is because Americans automaticaly assume they are the best. Seriously, we don't care how much we stack up against other teams because we feel we're the best hands down. Even when we don't win these competitions, we never for a second think Argentina is better....
I don't know where this these differences come from, but exist.

Sometimes our passion becomes crazy a Football (your soccer) game between ARG against BRA is always an EVENT for us, we only want to defeat them as much as they want to defeat us.

I do not travel so much to say this happen in every corner of the planet, but sounds like that for me; when we heard that some NBA's star says "oh .. Dear I won't go there because I am tired or the food is not ok", or whatever reason; for mostly of non USA people sounds xtrange.

Some of the players that are nominated for NT aren't my favorites in the local tournament, but since he/she is playing for NT automatically I support them, I think in some cultures the NT is one of those things that unify the country.

Like my sister in law said (she's from States) "You have to see to believe, you even have a metro that works and smell godd" :oops

[smeagol]

One reason these things aren't as important here is because Americans automaticaly assume they are the best. Seriously, we don't care how much we stack up against other teams because we feel we're the best hands down. Even when we don't win these competitions, we never for a second think Argentina is better.
:depressed

[ShoogarBear]

I wouldn't trade the Spurs title for Olympic Gold, but if I was a player, I would cherish the Olympic Gold way more than an NBA title.
The only reason that might be true is that it is a lot harder to make the US Olympic team than to be on the roster of an NBA champion.

Having said that, you really think Barkley, Stockton, or Malone wouldn't give up their gold medals in a nanosecond in exchange for an NBA title? I bet they would.

[zeleni]

local/national?

YES. I would think it would be better if my local basketball club who is not even in 1.League to be the Euroleague champions. And after that I would want Slovenia to win the Olympics, and then I would like the Spurs to be the NBA champions.

BTW, I would like Olimpija in football and basketball become the world club champions.
It is not important what are you aspiring to. It is just about what can really happen.
The world doesn't have a world club championship but in football. And that is like ultra special and unique place for any club to be in. Won't happen. Spurs can happen. Slovenia might someday happen. Local? Nah.

[v2freak]

One reason these things aren't as important here is because Americans automaticaly assume they are the best. Seriously, we don't care how much we stack up against other teams because we feel we're the best hands down. Even when we don't win these competitions, we never for a second think Argentina is better.

Nice generalization


No, it's country first (National Team), Spurs second.

That's pretty much what I'm saying...if it's not out of line to ask, how did you become a Spurs fan?

[SequSpur]

damn... shooga made some damn good points up in here.

[MannyIsGod]

Nice generalization

And how else do you address large groups of people? In generalizations. Are you saying that Americans do not think they are the best in basketball?

[MannyIsGod]

The only reason that might be true is that it is a lot harder to make the US Olympic team than to be on the roster of an NBA champion.

Having said that, you really think Barkley, Stockton, or Malone wouldn't give up their gold medals in a nanosecond in exchange for an NBA title? I bet they would.I don't know. I would like to think it'd be a tough decision, and maybe it would, but in the end I feel you're right.

[ALVAREZ6]

Shooger brings a good point, but with the US it's a little different. Winning international basketball games really isn't that important to them considering that they have dominated the fuck out of the world for decades, and the whole world still knows that the best players in the world are mostly Americans.


I think a lot of it has to do with the size of the country in population, and the population itself. There's like 300 million people in the US, but out of all of them, how many are hispanic, black, asian, or from any other part of the world??? The population is so diverse in the US that you can't really establish unity and shit like that. Most countries are a lot smaller in population, and if they aren't (China, India, etc), everyone in the country is basically the same race.

Do you guys get where I'm getting at???

[MannyIsGod]

Shooger brings a good point, but with the US it's a little different. Winning international basketball games really isn't that important to them considering that they have dominated the fuck out of the world for decades, and the whole world still knows that the best players in the world are mostly Americans.


I think a lot of it has to do with the size of the country in population, and the population itself. There's like 300 million people in the US, but out of all of them, how many are hispanic, black, asian, or from any other part of the world??? The population is so diverse in the US that you can't really establish unity and shit like that. Most countries are a lot smaller in population, and if they aren't (China, India, etc), everyone in the country is basically the same race.

Do you guys get where I'm getting at???I think thats pretty valid, but there are definetly things that bond Americans together, but they usually don't have to do with sports.

[V-2]

Alvarez,
The China and India-same race stuff is stretched.
Americans are as patriotic as any other nation no matter the diversity.

[ShoogarBear]

Yeah, things that bond Americans together are shit like American Idol.

I agree with Alvie. If the US had been struggling to win Olympic medals for years, then it would mean much more to us.

Maybe in another 10 years, or when the NBA becomes the IBA and the semifinals are between the winners of the North American, South American, European, and Asia/African Conferences then we'll be talking different.

[Kori Ellis]

Alvarez,
The China and India-same race stuff is stretched.

Not really stretched, over 90% of China is Han Chinese.

[V-2]

10% of Chinese is a considerable amount of people, more than 1/3 of US population. :)

[Kori Ellis]

10% of Chinese is a considerable amount of people, more than 1/3 of US population. :)

Number of people, of course. But a huge majority, 90%, of the country is of one ethnicity.

I think that was the point.


Han Chinese 91.9%, Zhuang, Uygur, Hui, Yi, Tibetan, Miao, Manchu, Mongol, Buyi, Korean, and other nationalities 8.1%

[ALVAREZ6]

And of those 8.1%, they still are asian, and look pretty similar, not to be an asshole.


It's not like 90% of China is Han Chinese, and the other 10% is black.

[MannyIsGod]

And of those 8.1%, they still are asian, and look pretty similar, not to be an asshole.


It's not like 90% of China is Han Chinese, and the other 10% is black.Oh man, sometimes it is better to quit while you're ahead. If you don't think Korean, Japanese and Chinese people are very different you're very wrong.

[1Parker1]

And of those 8.1%, they still are asian, and look pretty similar, not to be an asshole...

:lol Alvie...you should know when to stop.

[v2freak]

And how else do you address large groups of people? In generalizations. Are you saying that Americans do not think they are the best in basketball?

You may think Americans are the best/ are not the best at basketball and that's fine. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but you need not speak for anyone else, much less an entire nation.

[smeagol]

That's pretty much what I'm saying

We are saying two different things.


...if it's not out of line to ask, how did you become a Spurs fan?

It's not, although I'm sure you know the answer. Because of Manu.

[smeagol]

I agree with Alvie. If the US had been struggling to win Olympic medals for years, then it would mean much more to us.

Shoog, this is pretty much what I said and you brushed me off :depressed

[v2freak]

We are saying two different things.



It's not, although I'm sure you know the answer. Because of Manu.

You watch the Spurs because of Manu..Manu plays for your country..with all due respect, how are we conveying different messages?

[MannyIsGod]

You may think Americans are the best/ are not the best at basketball and that's fine. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but you need not speak for anyone else, much less an entire nation.Oh please. It is far from a stretch to say that vast majority of Americans feel they are the best at basketball in the world. In fact, I think to say the contrary is flat out foolishness. It is more of a fact than a generalization.

I'm not speaking for an entire nation. I am telling you what is obvious.

[MannyIsGod]

In general, Americans have this awful sense of entitlement when it comes to basketball. We all were spoiled by the 1992 Dream Team with Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. But that was a once-in-a-lifetime deal and it was only a matter of time before the world became better in basketball, particularly with the NBA's emphasis on global outreach.


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/local/orl-hill1506aug15,0,7962024.column?coll=orl-sports-headlines

[MannyIsGod]

In the past, American players and fans treated the quadrennial world championship as a non-event. Basketball had not yet become a global mania and it was universally acknowledged that the best players in the world were the American professionals and that the true world championship was the NBA title.

This complacency was reinforced by the 1994 world championship, which was the first one to feature NBA players – the US team won all eight games and beat its opponents by an average of 37.7 points a game.


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14410459/

[ShoogarBear]

Shoog, this is pretty much what I said and you brushed me off :depressedYou're not as cute.

:lol

I'll have to go back and read it again.

[ShoogarBear]

Actually, I don't think you were saying the same thing.

You were saying if the US started struggling NOW, they would start to care. I don't think so. I don't think anything will ever mean more than the NBA.

Alvie's point was if the US had always historically struggled in the Olympics and WCs, (i.e., we didn't have the past history of dominance) then maybe we'd value it more. That I'd agree with.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Ah, Sequ, king of the controversy thread...

Y'know, there was a time not so long ago that winning a gold medal in a WORLD CLASS sporting competition (ie. Olympics, World Championships) was the pinnacle of sporting achievement, and something all athletes AND FANS aspired to and respected. However, the all-consuming power of money (in this case represented by the NBA) has put that silly notion to rest!

These athletes?! How dare they, owned as they are by us, THE FANS, through our monetary support of NBA franchises, how dare they even consider jeopardising their contribution to the NBA in favour of selfish agrandisement at a world class international competition! How DARE they!!!

:oops

[ShoogarBear]

Sorry, but the whole point many of us have been trying to get across is that in the US, winning an Olympic or WC medal was NEVER considered the "pinnacle of sporting achievement" as far as basketball was concerned. That was the case long before our pros started playing in those events.

It was a nice cherry to the top of the sundae if you got one, but the bottom line here has always been and will always be an NBA or NCAA championship.

[smeagol]

You watch the Spurs because of Manu..Manu plays for your country..with all due respect, how are we conveying different messages?

Please read all my posts in this thread. I have stated that I would rather see my soccer NT win the next five WCs than my local Argentine team (River Plate) ever win a local championship in my lifetime. This is to give you an example which is unrelated to te Spurs and involves a team I have been a fan of, probably same as you with the Spurs, for all my life.

This applies to any team sport: bball, rugby, volley, etc.

So it's not about the player, it's about the NT.

[BgT]

I don't know the soccer situation well at all but I don't think teams "have" to release players and I do think there are some teams that don't release their star players for a lot of "minor" competitions. and there are some tournaments that star players chose not to go to. I know that's the case for some US players like Claudio Reyna and some US goalies that play or have played in the British leagues.
Look, I don't have a slightest intention to offend you, but - let's just stay with the facts, if they are available.
Football clubs must release their players, when national associations request them. They have to release them even for friendly games. However to make the things easier for the clubs, friendly games schedules are decided at the start of every season by UEFA/FIFA. Si it's "If you want a friendly, play it at these days." At these days there can be other national team games, as for instance qualifications for big events. The dates for 06/07 season are: 15/8, 2/9, 6/9, 7/10, 11/10, 15/11, 7/2, 24/3, 28/3, 2/6, 6/6. Of course, when it happens, NT's have the players for more than just a single day.
Can the players stay at their clubs instead of playing for the national squad? Yes, they can. Clubs can ask the national association (NA) if they could keep the player - whatever the reason would be. Sometimes the national associations allow this, but in 99% of cases it doesn't happen. The clubs can, however, get a day "off" for their players. for instance a player could join the national team training camp a day later. But the club officials should be really nice to NA officials. So, yeah, maybe Reyna was excused, but it has nothing to do with FIFA. It's the national football association who decides about that (in his case American Football Association)
Football clubs are usually proud to have a national team player at their squad, especially if they raised him. They say "Look, we've managed to raise a national squad member, our youth academy is great." or maybe "Look, our training facilities are excellent, a player has managed to get a national team spot. He was nowhere, before he came to our clubs. Our scouts did an excellent job". Even the clubs who have 10 NT players in their team and could be unhappy with it sometimes, usually don't say it at loud, because fans of the club wouldn't accept it easily.

This is one of the main differences between NBA and rest of the world even in basketball - fans have bigger impact on life in Europe. In NBA, there are club owners and the profits are, in some extent, divided between teams. In Europe/South America, there are no owners (except for the rare exceptions) and it's all about making the fans happy. If the fans are not happy with a coach, they let that know and the coach/FO can usually pack their bags. For instance, how is a FO of a huge team named F.C. Barcelona (the name of the basketball and handball team is the same) decided? By voting of team members every 4 years. There are more than 100 000 members all over the world and you too can be one of them, if you want. You would just be paying a small amount every year, it's probably around $50.

I really don't know a case where a star football player would reject playing playing for his national team. There is an event called "international retirement", when a player decides, he just had enough and his age/condinition+family life prevents him to play for the country anymore. Usually it happens at 32+ years of age, when there are plenty of younger players to play at their position. If the NT team really needs the player, he will almost never do that.
Football players want to play for their teams, because it's the top career achievement and there is always the pride playing for their country. However in football the top trophy is World Cup, not the Olympic games or continental Champions league. Football world cup is the top sport event on the planet. It is so huge, that it would really not be appropriate to replicate it at the Olympic games - regarding finances and competition. So FIFA has the age limit, which suits well for both clubs and older players. The limit is 23 but 3 players can be of any age, don't forget that. How did FIFA achieve that and NBA can't? Well the first reason is that FIFA is FIFA and NBA is NBA. FIFA is much more infuential, football is the sport number one almost everywhere. The other reason would be that basketball national competitions are not THAT influential compared to World Cup.

For the rest of the world, it's country first, club second. It is the way that most (nonUSA) basketball players think. They consider playing in NBA as their job, but playing for their country is for their soul. You just don't get the mentality. NBA title is an important club achievement, but for them, winning a major natioanal competition is at least that important.

Bottom line, if NBA club owners are not happy with that, they should just stop buying foreign players, it's just that easy. Top Euro talents would just remain undrafted. Why is that not happening? Because they are not stupid (most of them). Anyway you have some top american players playing World Championships as well, so I'm not sure they would be "safe" with this approach.


One reason these things aren't as important here is because Americans automaticaly assume they are the best. Seriously, we don't care how much we stack up against other teams because we feel we're the best hands down. Even when we don't win these competitions, we never for a second think Argentina is better.

I wouldn't trade the Spurs title for Olympic Gold, but if I was a player, I would cherish the Olympic Gold way more than an NBA title. I simply feel its a great honor to play for your country. When your country comes to you and says that you are the best and they want you to represent them, I think is is huge.
That's an excellent post. I've always wondered, how the hell some guys just don't recognize the importance of NT participation for these players. And more important... how they can't be happy for them?! Bowen was disappointed because of not being selected and some of you are even happy about that? That's sick.

Bottom line... why do we care about what TPark and Sequ write? They are two unimportant persons, they can have their opinion, so what? Why do we give a fuck about their opinion? Everyone can see they are "strange" (not using other words), why do we care?

[smeagol]

Good post BgT

[Slo spurs fan]

:clap @ BgT

[v2freak]

Please read all my posts in this thread. I have stated that I would rather see my soccer NT win the next five WCs than my local Argentine team (River Plate) ever win a local championship in my lifetime. This is to give you an example which is unrelated to te Spurs and involves a team I have been a fan of, probably same as you with the Spurs, for all my life.

This applies to any team sport: bball, rugby, volley, etc.

So it's not about the player, it's about the NT.

May I assume that most of/all the players on your local Argentine team are Argentinean?



http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14410459/

That was quite a while ago, wasn't it? There are no blurred lines between facts and opinions.

[picnroll]

Bottom line, if NBA club owners are not happy with that, they should just stop buying foreign players, it's just that easy. Top Euro talents would just remain undrafted. Why is that not happening? Because they are not stupid (most of them). Anyway you have some top american players playing World Championships as well, so I'm not sure they would be "safe" with this approach.

There are clearly MAJOR differences between the way basketball and soccer are goverened. In terms of participation at this point most major players who are more senior would just as soon pass on international competition. Even with the US reputation in need of repair look how many players took a pass on the '04 Olympics. Now you have a bunch of kiddies trying to make their bones. Give them a go around or two and unless they're a LeBron seeing a billion $s to be made they'll pass.

In terms of "Bottom line, if NBA club owners are not happy with that, they should just stop buying foreign players" nobody is putting a gun to their heads to sign with NBA teams. They can go the Vasquez route. It's their choice.

I think MannyIsGod is WAY int the minority of US fans getting more jacked about international play than his club team play.

[SequSpur]

welcome to the forum bigt. if you don't give a shit about my opinion, then go post in the club. my opinion must be important because this topic is still here and the count just keeps climbing. that's called scoreboard. learn it doob.....

btw, good insight...

[hendrix]

May I assume that most of/all the players on your local Argentine team are Argentinean?


"Most"... yes, sure... that happens everywhere, there is a limit for foreigners.
But there are a lot of players from:
Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, etc.

[hendrix]

welcome to the forum bigt. if you don't give a shit about my opinion, then go post in the club. my opinion must be important because this topic is still here and the count just keeps climbing. that's called scoreboard. learn it doob.....

btw, good insight...

You can win at "post count scoreboard", but you lose in every other aspect of the forum and probably in your life.
One thing I'm sure is that you had dirt floors when child, since you are soo traumatized with it. And the Commodore-64 is a sure thing, since you have the age.

[ducks]

so if you can not post in a forum you suck at life?
oh my god

[SequSpur]

You can win at "post count scoreboard", but you lose in every other aspect of the forum and probably in your life.
One thing I'm sure is that you had dirt floors when child, since you are soo traumatized with it. And the Commodore-64 is a sure thing, since you have the age.

:smokin

[DarkReign]

I could care less about International....anything. Dont care at all. I am not even going to DVR any of these games in the WC.

Why? Because this American squad isnt even the best we could send. Im sorry, unless you got Shaq in center, and TD in the 4, this isnt Americas best shot by a longshot.

This team is undersized but SUPER-athletic, young and hungry.

I just dont care at all. I hope, at some point, these games will be on at some reasonable time. Until its on in the US timeframe, I dont give a shit. Win or lose, so what. What league is every player worth his salt dying to play for. The NBA.

I am not trying to come off as rude or aloof. But ask any American with half a brain if they think <insert international tournament winner here> is better than the US at basketball?

Because they arent. The pride your players feel isnt the same here. They love $$, they make alot of it, and they dont want to get injured in some silly exhibition.

Off topic a little bit,

How do you think the NBA Champs would fare in these tournaments? Like if America sent the Miami Heat to represent for example.

[cheguevara]

:lol Shaq? gimme a break. and TD was there last year along w/Iverson,etc.

That excuse that USA doesn't send their best team is OLD and BS.

[ShoogarBear]

How do you think the NBA Champs would fare in these tournaments? Like if America sent the Miami Heat to represent for example.

All things being equal, it's not impossible they would fare better than the All-Star teams we're currently sending.

However, that's very team-dependent because of the differing degrees of foreign talent. The Spurs without Tony or Manu would get their heads handed to them. Same with Dallas without Dirk or Phoenix without Nash or Diaw.

Miami and Detroit would probably do okay.

[ShoogarBear]

:lol Shaq? gimme a break. and TD was there last year along w/Iverson,etc.

That excuse that USA doesn't send their best team is OLD and BS.

No, if Shaq and Duncan and LeBron and Kobe played together year after year as part of a national team, the rest of the world would be back to square one.

[cheguevara]

then why don't they?

IF this, IF that. blah, blah

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

the dirt floors make a comeback.

[ShoogarBear]

then why don't they?

IF this, IF that. blah, blah

Haven't you been paying attention to a single thing that's been said?

BECAUSE IT'S NOT THAT IMPORTANT TO THEM, OR TO THE U.S. IN GENERAL.

Yes, they would like to win, but not at the expense of their NBA titles or careers. And the vast majority of this country is in agreement with them.

[tlongII]

Haven't you been paying attention to a single thing that's been said?

BECAUSE IT'S NOT THAT IMPORTANT TO THEM, OR TO THE U.S. IN GENERAL.

Yes, they would like to win, but not at the expense of their NBA titles or careers. And the vast majority of this country is in agreement with them.


It doesn't matter. The USA team at the WC's this year will kick everybody's ass. This team doesn't need Shaq or Kobe. LeBron, D-Wade, Carmelo, Howard, and the others are definitely elite enough.

[smeagol]

:lmao

the dirt floors make a comeback.

And the C64. I’m still waiting for Sequ to ask is Chips Ahoy are sold in Argentina

[cheguevara]

Haven't you been paying attention to a single thing that's been said?

BECAUSE IT'S NOT THAT IMPORTANT TO THEM, OR TO THE U.S. IN GENERAL.

Yes, they would like to win, but not at the expense of their NBA titles or careers. And the vast majority of this country is in agreement with them.

I agree that many american superstars would preffer to drive their hummers and smoke their blunts in clubs than to represent their country in the WC.

I am just saying that the excuse that SOME americans give that THE REASON WE DON"T WIN WC/OLYMPICS ANYMORE BECAUSE WE DON"T SEND THE BEST TEAM is OLD and BS.

The reason being like Tlong says Wade, Lebron, Mello, etc are elite enough.

[ShoogarBear]

I agree that many american superstars would preffer to drive their hummers and smoke their blunts in clubs than to represent their country in the WC.

I am just saying that the excuse that SOME americans give that THE REASON WE DON"T WIN WC/OLYMPICS ANYMORE BECAUSE WE DON"T SEND THE BEST TEAM is OLD and BS.

The reason being like Tlong says Wade, Lebron, Mello, etc are elite enough.

The only thing that's old and BS is your stereotyping of "American superstars".

You putting Tim Duncan in that category?

[cheguevara]

The only thing that's old and BS is your stereotyping of "American superstars".

You putting Tim Duncan in that category?

ok, some also prefer to play playstation :lol

[ShoogarBear]

Point taken. :lol

But that fact is that Team Argentina represents the absolute best 12-15 players in the country. Or at least you aren't going to find 5 other Argentinians good enough to bump off members.

Same with every other country. Except the US.

KG, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Allen. None of those guys would be sitting out an NBA Finals.

And it isn't a lack of patriotism. The priorities are just different in this country when it comes to basketball.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Sorry, but the whole point many of us have been trying to get across is that in the US, winning an Olympic or WC medal was NEVER considered the "pinnacle of sporting achievement" as far as basketball was concerned. That was the case long before our pros started playing in those events.

It was a nice cherry to the top of the sundae if you got one, but the bottom line here has always been and will always be an NBA or NCAA championship.

Yes, indeed, then the world started playing basketball, and the players decided that it was important for them to play against the best players from across the world once in a while. If the players didn't see it as important to represent their country, why would they play, and why would a guy like Bowen be disappointed to miss out?

You are seeing it only from the fan's side. The players see it differently. It is important for them to play for their country.

[v2freak]

All things being equal, it's not impossible they would fare better than the All-Star teams we're currently sending.

However, that's very team-dependent because of the differing degrees of foreign talent. The Spurs without Tony or Manu would get their heads handed to them. Same with Dallas without Dirk or Phoenix without Nash or Diaw.

Miami and Detroit would probably do okay.

I don't know if the Spurs would get their 'heads handed to them' but they certainly wouldn't do as well!


:lol Shaq? gimme a break. and TD was there last year along w/Iverson,etc.

That excuse that USA doesn't send their best team is OLD and BS.

It's true. TD was there - he has splinters in his ass from his days of riding the bench, foul ridden.


"Most"... yes, sure... that happens everywhere, there is a limit for foreigners.
But there are a lot of players from:
Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, etc.

Okay. Thank you


You can win at "post count scoreboard", but you lose in every other aspect of the forum and probably in your life.
One thing I'm sure is that you had dirt floors when child, since you are soo traumatized with it. And the Commodore-64 is a sure thing, since you have the age.

I hope you don't honestly believe that this statement was justified.


ShoogarBear's makes some good points, although I believe nothing should be held against the countries that DO send their best players.

Also: pardon my ignorance, but what is the 'Vasquez' way?

[ShoogarBear]

Yes, indeed, then the world started playing basketball, and the players decided that it was important for them to play against the best players from across the world once in a while. If the players didn't see it as important to represent their country, why would they play, and why would a guy like Bowen be disappointed to miss out?

You are seeing it only from the fan's side. The players see it differently. It is important for them to play for their country.

Bowen is a terrible example. He is the most atypical US team selectee of all time. Using Bruce Bowen's attitudes are representative of the typical NBA player is completely inaccurate.

Other countries are sending their very best players, bar none.

I repeat again:
Duncan
Garnett
Shaq
Kobe
Allen
Redd

Does Argentina have any players of on that level who are not participating? Does Spain? Any country at all except the US?

No.

Why? Because it's more important to those countries than it is to the US.

[hendrix]

Bowen is a terrible example. He is the most atypical US team selectee of all time. Using Bruce Bowen's attitudes are representative of the typical NBA player is completely inaccurate.

Other countries are sending their very best players, bar none.

I repeat again:
Duncan
Garnett
Shaq
Kobe
Allen
Redd

Does Argentina have any players of on that level who are not participating? Does Spain? Any country at all except the US?

No.

Why? Because it's more important to those countries than it is to the US.

Duncan, Garnett, Shaq and Allen already played for Team USA.

[ShoogarBear]

Okaaay . . . and Manu, Scola, and Oberto already played for Argentina. Why aren't they sitting this one out?

Could it be because the NT is the single most important team in Argentina, whereas in the US it is not?

[BgT]

Bowen is a terrible example. He is the most atypical US team selectee of all time. Using Bruce Bowen's attitudes are representative of the typical NBA player is completely inaccurate.

Other countries are sending their very best players, bar none.

I repeat again:
Duncan
Garnett
Shaq
Kobe
Allen
Redd

Does Argentina have any players of on that level who are not participating? Does Spain? Any country at all except the US?

No.

Why? Because it's more important to those countries than it is to the US.
First to say there are countries who haven't sent all of their best players and because of injuries. For instance Smodis comes to my mind, probably one of the top 5 PF's in Europe currently. Why? Because he wants to rest. The national team is not that important.
Which brings me to another point... it's not that their contries are not sending the best players - the countries send the best players AVAILABLE. And that's what ALL countries do, from USA to Lebanon. They send the best players available. A player can be unavailable because... he is injured. Because... he has some problems with the coach/teammates. Or... because he doesn't give a fuck about his team and his country. Every country has players in each of these categories. USA... USA just happen to have lots of players who don't give a fuck about their country. It's just that easy.

Take one example. Shaq (not a good example, for his health and career playing for NT would really be a bad move, but let's forget that for a moment) doesn't want to play for his country at the moment? Ok, what if he would take another citizenship, for instance, Japanese? He would also return the American citizenship. What would you say then, would you still talk about "we are still so cool, we just don't care about these exhibition game, Shaq doesn't care for those games"? Wouldn't it be true, that Shaq is just unavailable and you can't count him on the list of AVAILABLE players? I mean he just took a Japanese citizenship and returned American. Well, for me there is no difference between this crazy scenario and a situation where a player doesn't want to play for his national team just without a solid reason - in both cases he doesn't give a fuck for his country.

What is all this obsession with "we are too strong for any country on the planet. Even if we loose, it would be because best players don't play." Face the truth: best available players play for every country, including USA. If someone doesn't care about national team, it's your problem, he is not an available player. Russians could make an excuse, that they haven't won a WC title for a long time, because some top basketball players from middle of Russian freezing north don't want to play at such unimportant events. "But but but we have Shaq and KG and... " -- "yeah, yeah, we have Aleksey, Grigoriy and Leonid and they all kick your ass."

I used to give some credit to "who is not playing". I don't do that anymore. You want to prove you have the strongest team? Send it in and we'll see if it's true. Nobody asks some nonUSA team who's missing, even if he could be the most important part of the team.

Anyway a team is more than just a bunch of individuals. A team is tactics, spirit, brain. Putting in the mix someone who you think is a better individual doesn'r neccessary make a better team. I think this would especially be true for USA team.

[ShoogarBear]

USA just happen to have lots of players who don't give a fuck about their country. It's just that easy.Okay, congratulations, you've crossed the threshold into complete fucking piece of shit morondom.

The US--players and fans alike--just doesn't care enough about international play to make it a priority over the NBA or the NCAA. Sorry but we just don't. It hurts your feelings to hear that? Tough luck. It's the truth.

We don't look down on Olympics or the WC. We'd like for our best players to go, but if that doesn't happen we don't get all that worked up about it. I guess we should just keep quite and not say the truth about that either, to protect your wittle feewlings.

Oh, no, that's right, I forgot, according to you every other country has a Tim Duncan sitting at home, too. :lmao

We don't need to prove jack shit. The day your players stop aspiring to play in the NBA, maybe there'll be something to talk about.

It has nothing to do with how much you care for your country, and only a pathetic piece of shit moron would feel need to continually rationalize that somehow it does.

[SequSpur]

WBCs < WNBA

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Bowen is a terrible example. He is the most atypical US team selectee of all time. Using Bruce Bowen's attitudes are representative of the typical NBA player is completely inaccurate.

Other countries are sending their very best players, bar none.

I repeat again:
Duncan
Garnett
Shaq
Kobe
Allen
Redd

Does Argentina have any players of on that level who are not participating? Does Spain? Any country at all except the US?

No.

Why? Because it's more important to those countries than it is to the US.

I said "why was Bowen disappointed" to illustrate the point that the players really care about playing at the WBCs (regardless of what NBA fans think), which you completely ignored.

Sure the rest of the world's fans probably care more than US fans about the WBCs, that's not in dispute. I was suggesting that the US players care a lot more than the US fans.

As for the players who are in the team, it is about depth of talent. The players you list above have already played for the US (except Redd?), and by in large did poorly or are getting older, so no wonder they aren't playing.T To compensate, the US has a far deeper pool of talent than any other country by a factor of at least 10, so you can afford to play younger star players when the aging ones opt out and not lose much in the way of talent. There is no other country that can do that. (BTW, Turkoglu and Okur aren't playing for Turkey due to difference of opinion with the coach...)

Anyway, MY POINT was that regardless of what we fans think, the players obviously see it as important and good on them.

I'll also mention that US fans saw it as pretty important WHEN THE US WAS UNBEATABLE (ie. all throughout the 90s). Now that you've had a few failures in a row the old pride is dented and people aren't that interested - no-one wants to get behind a loser... except true fans who will stick with their team no matter what happens. I'm sure most of us here feel that way about our Spurs. ;)

[TDMVPDPOY]

i was readin sumshit,

this team, 9 of its members wear nike shoes, this is the nike team, goin to asia to get money, ft.

[ShoogarBear]

I said "why was Bowen disappointed" to illustrate the point that the players really care about playing at the WBCs (regardless of what NBA fans think), which you completely ignored.You stay fixated on one player and conveniently ignored the 5-6 I listed. Tell me why they aren't coming if it's so important.

And is the WC more important to Bruce than an NBA title? No. You have no point at all.



Sure the rest of the world's fans probably care more than US fans about the WBCs, that's not in dispute. I was suggesting that the US players care a lot more than the US fans.
Again, you convienently ignored all the top-level players who clearly haven't made it a priority. Once again, how many top level players from other countries are sitting it out?



As for the players who are in the team, it is about depth of talent. The players you list above have already played for the US (except Redd?), and by in large did poorly or are getting older, so no wonder they aren't playing.T To compensate, the US has a far deeper pool of talent than any other country by a factor of at least 10, so you can afford to play younger star players when the aging ones opt out and not lose much in the way of talent. There is no other country that can do that. If it was as important to the US players as you need to believe, Duncan and Garenett would be there.

Tell me again how many players pack it in because they already have an NBA championship.



Anyway, MY POINT was that regardless of what we fans think, the players obviously see it as important and good on them.
NBA title/NCAA title >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WC. If that's your defintion of "important".

The US players see it as important and want to win. It's just not a huge priority. Just like the US fans feel.



I'll also mention that US fans saw it as pretty important WHEN THE US WAS UNBEATABLE (ie. all throughout the 90s). Now that you've had a few failures in a row the old pride is dented and people aren't that interested - no-one wants to get behind a loser... except true fans who will stick with their team no matter what happens. I'm sure most of us here feel that way about our Spurs. ;)Thanks for the cultural insight. No, the US saw the ORIGINAL DREAM TEAM as important. Once that novelty was achieved, interest rapidly dropped.

The difference between interest in the 1992 and 1996 teams was orders of magnitude. And even if the US maanged to get all their best players together again, the interest will be nowhere near even 1996.

[Slo spurs fan]

WBCs < WNBA
Dwarf > Sequ

[sendman]

NBA claims that it is the best league in the world (and I agree). But, just claiming something without proving it, doesn't hold water. Since NBA would like to have global influence they must show the rest of the world that they are the best. So I expect to see an NBA selection on every big international competition (its business). Players they send must be good enough to win that competition and circle is closed.

[zeleni]

Now, let us say that next year we have a tournament...Euroleague v NBA Champion

We really have a promotion spectacle, but let's say.

5 years from now Euroleague wins that tournament. What remains to the USA? Then even NBA is not the strongest league. USA is fighting for dominance.

Comparison FIFA v NBA...is comparing UEFA to the Estonian basketball league. NBA means National basketball association and is important just as long as the league has money and TV time all over the world. As an institution...you are Estonia (if we would presume that an Estonian guy went to Italy to invent calcio). You have money and that is all. Even China could dominate in 10 years and NBA goes to history. It's that simple. NBA is under FIBA as is Euroleague. FIBA is here to stay.

WTF are they playing for?
How can USA v Slovenia happen without the WBC?

[diego]

SOME of you americans are pathetic. You send a super duper dream team at a time where there is practically no competition and its "we are the best ever we own everyone we can demolish people in our sleep this is our sport". I mean if this was so irrevelant then why send half of the greatest 50 ever! Moreover at a time when there was practically no competition! Then, you send really good players (#1 picks, MVPs, allstars, etc) and get your ass handed to you and its "oh we just dont care about the WC. we REALLY care about the olympics." So you send a couple more MVPs and get your ass handed to you again, and its "well, we still have the best players. if we sent the best players we would have the best team."

ARGENTINA, LEBANON, PUERTO RICO, ETC, DO NOT CHOSE TEAM USA'S NATIONAL TEAM. THAT IS YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM NOT OURS. IF YOU DONT CARE ABOUT THIS SHIT, DONT WATCH IT, DONT TALK ABOUT IT, AND DONT POST ABOUT IT. IF YOU REALLY DONT CARE THEN WHY DO YOU BITCH EVERY TIME YOU LOSE??

"our imaginary team is the best, its never lost a game!!!" whoop de fucking doo, congratulations. My team is there and it will try and beat whoever stands in front of them, your super team of duncan garnett shaq is the four HOFers for all i care, punked by a starless detroit team. Remember that? Ive come to the conclusion the US will never send its best team again, because if they lost they'd lose their favorite cop-out: "if we sent our best..."

ah, but if you had some balls....

[Obstructed_View]

SOME of you americans are pathetic. You send a super duper dream team at a time where there is practically no competition and its "we are the best ever we own everyone we can demolish people in our sleep this is our sport". I mean if this was so irrevelant then why send half of the greatest 50 ever! Moreover at a time when there was practically no competition! Then, you send really good players (#1 picks, MVPs, allstars, etc) and get your ass handed to you and its "oh we just dont care about the WC. we REALLY care about the olympics." So you send a couple more MVPs and get your ass handed to you again, and its "well, we still have the best players. if we sent the best players we would have the best team."

ARGENTINA, LEBANON, PUERTO RICO, ETC, DO NOT CHOSE TEAM USA'S NATIONAL TEAM. THAT IS YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM NOT OURS. IF YOU DONT CARE ABOUT THIS SHIT, DONT WATCH IT, DONT TALK ABOUT IT, AND DONT POST ABOUT IT. IF YOU REALLY DONT CARE THEN WHY DO YOU BITCH EVERY TIME YOU LOSE??

"our imaginary team is the best, its never lost a game!!!" whoop de fucking doo, congratulations. My team is there and it will try and beat whoever stands in front of them, your super team of duncan garnett shaq is the four HOFers for all i care, punked by a starless detroit team. Remember that? Ive come to the conclusion the US will never send its best team again, because if they lost they'd lose their favorite cop-out: "if we sent our best..."

ah, but if you had some balls....
So they win, and you have something shitty to say. They lose, and you have something shitty to say. You tell people if they don't like it they shouldn't talk about it, but then you bitch incessantly for three paragraphs about americans, whether they win or lose. Get off your high horse, you ignorant hypocrite. You are pathetic, and it doesn't matter where you are from.

[samikeyp]

You send a super duper dream team at a time where there is practically no competition

If that team was in this competition....the same thing would happen. That was a once in a lifetime acheivement which was never and will never be repeated again.


your super team of duncan garnett shaq is the four HOFers for all i care, punked by a starless detroit team.

Duncan, Garnett and Shaq play on the same team?


ARGENTINA, LEBANON, PUERTO RICO, ETC, DO NOT CHOSE TEAM USA'S NATIONAL TEAM. THAT IS YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM NOT OURS. IF YOU DONT CARE ABOUT THIS SHIT, DONT WATCH IT, DONT TALK ABOUT IT, AND DONT POST ABOUT IT. IF YOU REALLY DONT CARE THEN WHY DO YOU BITCH EVERY TIME YOU LOSE??


ah, but if you had some balls....

Yes because We choose the team.

dude...why the American hate? The rest of the world has gotten way better than 1992 and I think its a good thing. I have no problem when Team USA gets challenged. When they get beat, its because the other team played better and I give props accordingly. If your country loses, its for the same reason. Are you a good sport and give the opponents credit? That is the way it should be. Fear none, respect all.

[diego]

ok I get two misunderstood replies from totally different viewpoints...

Obstructed view:

I said some americans. specifically, the ones that say "if we sent." Well you didnt send them! The ones that were sent are the ones that are going to get criticized if they lost, and praised if they won. I'm just tired of hearing "if we sent." Live with the team you did send, and if you really don't care and are so sure you have the best team regardless of outcomes, don't follow the god damn tournament! And since you are convinced I talk shit about the US when they win, show me, I love to learn new things about myself..

SAMikeyP: I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. I dont hate the US, its team, or its people- I've lived in the US for over a decade and have friends and family there. The government is a different story but hey its hard to find any good ones! What I meant to say is that those hypothetical teams of duncan, garnett, shaq, kobe, etc are only paper teams and SOME people use them as copouts to cover the failures of these "lesser" teams, when as the four HOFer team showed paper teams aren't guaranteed championships. Believe me, most fans around the world would rather the US sent its best but we have no control over that. Every basketball forum ive been to in recent weeks is covered with posts along the lines of "we could own even more" and "it doesnt matter if we lose we're still the best". Im just tired of some people wanting it both ways, "we won, we're the best" and "it doesnt matter we lost we're still the best, we just dont care about this tourney"

I think its pathetic to have that double standard and really would prefer if the US would just send the best or send no one at all. Its unfair to compete in a tournament and then just copout when any failure comes along, but grab the glory when it comes.

[samikeyp]

I agree...the best should always be sent. I also think that a committment has to be made by those players for a length of time which is finally happening here. Has the US had the most talent on paper since '92? Definetly. But what made us lose was not superior talent but rather a lack of cohesion that other teams have. If the 2004 team had been together as long as Argentina's team has been...I think the result would have been different. I think if this team stays together from now until the 08 games...they will be the favorite.

I also agree that cop-outs are for pussies. If you win, celebrate, if you lose, be a man and give credit to the other team and come back better.

[tlongII]

This thread is worthless. Why argue about the importance of the WC's to Americans? Team USA is going to kick the shit out of everybody in this competition. After this happens all the other nationalities on this board will shut their pie-holes. The team we have in Japan currently is as good as any we've sent since 92 in my opinion.

[Pero]

Team USA is going to kick the shit out of everybody in this competition. After this happens all the other nationalities on this board will shut their pie-holes. The team we have in Japan currently is as good as any we've sent since 92 in my opinion.


You must not have been reading all the posts much.... Or you read poorly...

[Pero]

I think if this team stays together from now until the 08 games...they will be the favorite.

They are a favorite still, no matter how long they`ve been together.

[DarkReign]

This thread is worthless. Why argue about the importance of the WC's to Americans? Team USA is going to kick the shit out of everybody in this competition. After this happens all the other nationalities on this board will shut their pie-holes. The team we have in Japan currently is as good as any we've sent since 92 in my opinion.

Quoted for fucking truth.

[Pero]

........

[Slo spurs fan]

This thread is worthless. Why argue about the importance of the WC's to Americans? Team USA is going to kick the shit out of everybody in this competition. After this happens all the other nationalities on this board will shut their pie-holes. The team we have in Japan currently is as good as any we've sent since 92 in my opinion.
:rolleyes

[smeagol]

This thread is worthless. Why argue about the importance of the WC's to Americans? Team USA is going to kick the shit out of everybody in this competition. After this happens all the other nationalities on this board will shut their pie-holes. The team we have in Japan currently is as good as any we've sent since 92 in my opinion.
I wouldn't particularly define today's game against Italy as an "ass-kicking".

[zeleni]

:rolleyes

No, that team is great. Really great. They are perhaps a kindergarten version of that Dreamteam. But Ginobili is no kindergarten guy. Dirk is mature. Kutulay is more mature than this team. They will not win without a serious meltdown of all of those guys.

[DarkReign]

I wouldn't particularly define today's game against Italy as an "ass-kicking".

If Italy is supposed to be the first or second best team in this tournament (Argentina is the other), then yup, thats an ass-whooping.

Got beat by double digits. How many NBA games end with less than 10 points between them? Dont know, buts its alot (i would think anyway).

[Pero]

If Italy is supposed to be the first or second best team in this tournament (Argentina is the other), then yup, thats an ass-whooping.

Shows how much you know...

[velik_m]

If Italy is supposed to be the first or second best team in this tournament (Argentina is the other), then yup, thats an ass-whooping.

Got beat by double digits. How many NBA games end with less than 10 points between them? Dont know, buts its alot (i would think anyway).

Italy second best? Italy got to the WC via wild card. there are what, 2 players from that olympics silver team left?

[DarkReign]

No, that team is great. Really great. They are perhaps a kindergarten version of that Dreamteam. But Ginobili is no kindergarten guy. Dirk is mature. Kutulay is more mature than this team. They will not win without a serious meltdown of all of those guys.

WTF...you have no fucking idea what youre talking about anymore.

Who the fuck won Finals MVP?! Over your mature Dirk, who beat your vaunted Ginobli. The fucking difference is Dirk doesnt have Terry, Stack and Co. The difference is Ginobli doesnt have the best damn BIG in the world, Tim Duncan or starting PG on France, Tony "I lead the league in points in the paint" Parker.

Youre fucking delusional. Hate hate hate...we see thru it. Youll be crying, it will funny, dont expect sympathy. Get used to it.

[DarkReign]

Italy second best? Italy got to the WC via wild card. there are what, 2 players from that olympics silver team left?

Hey, I am just going by what analysts said about the competition. I personall dont know, but when 5 out of 7 analysts say "Yup, Italy, damn fine team. Could be top 3 in the tourny if they get it right." I will go with their opinon over anyone elses. Theyre paid big $$ to do so.

[Pero]

You see through as much as I can see through womens clothes.... :lol

[Slo spurs fan]

Hey, I am just going by what analysts said about the competition. I personall dont know, but when 5 out of 7 analysts say "Yup, Italy, damn fine team. Could be top 3 in the tourny if they get it right." I will go with their opinon over anyone elses. Theyre paid big $$ to do so.
Link to those "analyists", please.

[Slo spurs fan]

WTF...you have no fucking idea what youre talking about anymore.

Who the fuck won Finals MVP?! Over your mature Dirk, who beat your vaunted Ginobli. The fucking difference is Dirk doesnt have Terry, Stack and Co. The difference is Ginobli doesnt have the best damn BIG in the world, Tim Duncan or starting PG on France, Tony "I lead the league in points in the paint" Parker.

Youre fucking delusional. Hate hate hate...we see thru it. Youll be crying, it will funny, dont expect sympathy. Get used to it.
Are you 10 or 11 y/o?

[Pero]

Hey, I am just going by what analysts said about the competition. I personall dont know, but when 5 out of 7 analysts say "Yup, Italy, damn fine team. Could be top 3 in the tourny if they get it right." I will go with their opinon over anyone elses. Theyre paid big $$ to do so.

Yeah sure, and so is half the other teams in the WC......
So what if they`re paid big bucks? You agree with everyone then who gets a lot of money?

[Fabbs]

The *Love of Country* bullcrap.

``I say all the time, and I tell my friends and teammates, that you have to go global,'' James said. ``In basketball and business.''

James and his new company, LRMR Marketing, have made China and Japan huge targets. As they outlined at a seminar last month in Akron, James has a strategy to increase his exposure in Asia by Aug. 8, 2008, the opening of the Beijing Olympics.

That's why it was a lock that he would be playing for Team USA this summer in the world championship. Additionally, the Cavaliers are in talks to open the NBA season next year playing in China, and he's planning on being back in 2008 for the Olympics.

``It is only going to help my business,'' James said. ``Once I knew the world games were going to be in Japan, I knew I was going to be on board .''
entire article:
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48601

[Pero]

:rolleyes

[cheguevara]

am I reading wrong or did Lebron say he went to WC mainly to help his biz???

[zeleni]

WTF...you have no fucking idea what youre talking about anymore.

Who the fuck won Finals MVP?! Over your mature Dirk, who beat your vaunted Ginobli. The fucking difference is Dirk doesnt have Terry, Stack and Co. The difference is Ginobli doesnt have the best damn BIG in the world, Tim Duncan or starting PG on France, Tony "I lead the league in points in the paint" Parker.

Youre fucking delusional. Hate hate hate...we see thru it. Youll be crying, it will funny, dont expect sympathy. Get used to it.

Wade--- the rest of the starting 5 are veteran players in Heat. Wade is actually like the TP of the Spurs. He has talent and dare, but needs to gain the experiance.

Ginobili didn't have Duncan when he played Olympics and that tournament in the USA.

Hate? LOVE, dear God, LOVE. I absolutely love this team and I was pissed that players on this team have no respect only for the rules of the game...simple gentlemen sense for playing like sportsmen. They are talents without limit, kindergarten Dreamteam...
What more would you like? I am not crying and rarely I would cry about NT failures. Slovenia had a player who nearly played for the Bulls, but became a huge bully and I couldn't care less about him now. Basketball is a game and it takes a smart mature team to explore their optimum. You have no mature leader and that is all I am saying.. Did it hurt too much?!

Slovenia will meet you again, I hope. That would be too fine. I would take the plane ticket just for that game. No questions asked.

[cheguevara]

Hey, I am just going by what analysts said about the competition. I personall dont know, but when 5 out of 7 analysts say "Yup, Italy, damn fine team. Could be top 3 in the tourny if they get it right." I will go with their opinon over anyone elses. Theyre paid big $$ to do so.

:lol you are so wrong.

Italy is not even a top 5 team. They are in a "rebuilding" stage.

they are freaking kids. Didn't you see them give up the lead to the US by shooting crazy shots from way outside??

[zeleni]

Greece, Spain, Turkey, Argentina, Germany, France, Lithuania

all better

[tlongII]

Greece, Spain, Turkey, Argentina, Germany, France, Lithuania

all better


*cough* bullshit *cough*

[Pero]

*cough* bullshit *cough*

*cough* ignorant *cough*

[Slo spurs fan]

*cough* ignorant *cough*
And cough...stupid...cough

[Pero]

Though I don`t completely agree with it either. The truth is, Italy might quite possibly beat any team if they have their day. Including the US. Not likely though, considering they really are in rebuild mode. I think even their coach said it. They got here on a "wild card", not because they managed to qualify through the European Championship.

[Pero]

And cough...stupid...cough

Hmm, not sure, but is that going at me?

[zeleni]

*cough* bullshit *cough*


yeah? I am listening.

[samikeyp]

Greece, Spain, Turkey, Argentina, Germany, France, Lithuania

all better

better than Italy or the US?

[Pero]

better than Italy or the US?

Italy. If there`s anyone better than the US remains to be seen. The only ones I think might possibly beat them are Argentina and Spain, maybe Greece. I don`t think the rest have a chance.

[samikeyp]

I think Argentina has a good shot. I am just not impressed with Spain or Greece. Then again..who knows.

[zeleni]

Italy. If there`s anyone better than the US remains to be seen. The only ones I think might possibly beat them are Argentina and Spain, maybe Greece. I don`t think the rest have a chance.
None of the Spaniars showed a heart of a champion. Navarro is too hasty, Gasol too angry, Calderon was in Toronto for a year and should recover this year, Garbajosa remains the only strong body with enough hunger, but they don't play on him. We will see in close games. They are well matched against the USA, but they can absolutely slaughter Italy.

[samikeyp]

None of the Spaniars showed a heart of a champion

I agree with that....that has also plagued Gasol in the NBA.

[vanvannen]

None of the Spaniars showed a heart of a champion.


That's how it's been for them ever since they started playing international, and I mean any sport. They look scary at first, and then they pull off their disappearing act every time around.

[cheguevara]

That's how it's been for them ever since they started playing international, and I mean any sport. They look scary at first, and then they pull off their disappearing act every time around.

not only in sports. The mighty spanish armada got its ass kicked by the british when it really mattered too back in the day. :lol

[V-2]

The loss of Zisis may be a huge loss for Greece. Varejao is a pussy.
Italy's a strong team, rebuilding or not.

[v2freak]

SOME of you americans are pathetic. You send a super duper dream team at a time where there is practically no competition and its "we are the best ever we own everyone we can demolish people in our sleep this is our sport". I mean if this was so irrevelant then why send half of the greatest 50 ever! Moreover at a time when there was practically no competition! Then, you send really good players (#1 picks, MVPs, allstars, etc) and get your ass handed to you and its "oh we just dont care about the WC. we REALLY care about the olympics." So you send a couple more MVPs and get your ass handed to you again, and its "well, we still have the best players. if we sent the best players we would have the best team."

ARGENTINA, LEBANON, PUERTO RICO, ETC, DO NOT CHOSE TEAM USA'S NATIONAL TEAM. THAT IS YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM NOT OURS. IF YOU DONT CARE ABOUT THIS SHIT, DONT WATCH IT, DONT TALK ABOUT IT, AND DONT POST ABOUT IT. IF YOU REALLY DONT CARE THEN WHY DO YOU BITCH EVERY TIME YOU LOSE??

"our imaginary team is the best, its never lost a game!!!" whoop de fucking doo, congratulations. My team is there and it will try and beat whoever stands in front of them, your super team of duncan garnett shaq is the four HOFers for all i care, punked by a starless detroit team. Remember that? Ive come to the conclusion the US will never send its best team again, because if they lost they'd lose their favorite cop-out: "if we sent our best..."

ah, but if you had some balls....

I thought I'd have this to share with everyone here. It's from an issue of Slam (I know, not the greatest magazine for basketball knowledge but...)

Game Point
by Scoop Jackson
November '04

...So in 1988, when a team stocked with America's best amateur players and coached by John Thompson suffered the worst US showing ever, true to American form, we panicked. Went into elite mode, decided to show and prove dominance, used what we got to get what we wanted. We constructed the greatest pro sports team the world will ever see. The Dream Team changed the game forever. For the worst. For America. And we got no one to blame but we.

In '92, when Magic, Michael, Bird, Barkley, Isiah (oh, sorry), Shaq (oops) and Laettner showed the world what the game was all about, the world took notice. Kids didn't just watch, they studied. Instantly, rims started popping up on soccer fields like they were Escalades. Little Serbian kids began to shoot like Larry, Lithuanians started passing like Earvin, kids in China began rebounding like Karl and running like Clyde. In Argentina, they learned to play D like Scottie, and even Angolans learned how to elbow opponents like Charles. They fell in love...



The world got good for a reason. This wasn't the only one, but it served as a wake up call to the world. I don't think that bitching about the Dream Team bolsters your argument very much.

[diego]

all I meant to say was that everyone was in love with the dream team and then it mattered. But now when they lose, supposedly americans dont care about international competition anymore...

[Bob Lanier]

I'm disturbed to completely agree with Tpark's first post. At least I can reassure myself that I completely disagree with the hidden reasoning behind it. :grim:

[ShoogarBear]

all I meant to say was that everyone was in love with the dream team and then it mattered. But now when they lose, supposedly americans dont care about international competition anymore...Skulls are so thick that they ignore the repeated message that NOBODY REALLY CARED ONCE 1992 WAS OVER!

I bet every in here can name 5 of the Dream Team, and a large percentage can name every one of them.

I bet very few remember who was on the 1996 team or the 2000 team.

Once the Dream Team was over and done with, interest waned.

I love how people come in here and try to tell us our history.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

We don't care. Really, we don't.

Stockton making it over Zeke still bugs me. Good thing Thomas lit him up like a pinball machine...

What was it, 44 and 11?

[spurschick]

Wow... I understand national pride and everything but, last I checked, we were all on this big planet together.

[Sway]

SOME of you americans are pathetic. You send a super duper dream team at a time where there is practically no competition and its "we are the best ever we own everyone we can demolish people in our sleep this is our sport". I mean if this was so irrevelant then why send half of the greatest 50 ever! Moreover at a time when there was practically no competition! Then, you send really good players (#1 picks, MVPs, allstars, etc) and get your ass handed to you and its "oh we just dont care about the WC. we REALLY care about the olympics." So you send a couple more MVPs and get your ass handed to you again, and its "well, we still have the best players. if we sent the best players we would have the best team."

ARGENTINA, LEBANON, PUERTO RICO, ETC, DO NOT CHOSE TEAM USA'S NATIONAL TEAM. THAT IS YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM NOT OURS. IF YOU DONT CARE ABOUT THIS SHIT, DONT WATCH IT, DONT TALK ABOUT IT, AND DONT POST ABOUT IT. IF YOU REALLY DONT CARE THEN WHY DO YOU BITCH EVERY TIME YOU LOSE??

"our imaginary team is the best, its never lost a game!!!" whoop de fucking doo, congratulations. My team is there and it will try and beat whoever stands in front of them, your super team of duncan garnett shaq is the four HOFers for all i care, punked by a starless detroit team. Remember that? Ive come to the conclusion the US will never send its best team again, because if they lost they'd lose their favorite cop-out: "if we sent our best..."

ah, but if you had some balls....


Damn dude step away from the computer before you have an aneurism. You are just making an ass of yourself throwing around all those generalizations. Most American basketball fans did not pull out the, “we didn’t send our best players” BS. Also, a lot of American basketball sports fans do care about international competition. So you were wrong on both points.

So on to the “best player” BS. Did the U.S. player selection process contribute to our failures the last two go a rounds? Yes it did, but that doesn’t change the fact that Argentina won it all fair and square. It doesn’t take anything away from all the clubs that spanked the USA Basketball Team.

But, that is all in the past. Team USA is back. So keep up your USA hating because it’s going to make it that much sweeter when we win it all and I get to throw in your face.

[SequSpur]

But, that is all in the past. Team USA is back. So keep up your USA hating because it’s going to make it that much sweeter when we win it all and I get to throw in your face.

Yeah.. but the question is.....

WTF are they playing for? No NBA Championship, no gold medal....

Why bother? What if they get injured by playing for nothing?

[SequSpur]

Wow... I understand national pride and everything but, last I checked, we were all on this big planet together.


Nice guys finish last on this planet.

[spurschick]

WTF are they playing for? No NBA Championship, no gold medal....

It's like the World Cup, instead it's for basketball. They're playing for the Naismith trophy and an automatic bid for the 2008 Olympics.

[milkyway21]

Yeah.. but the question is.....

WTF are they playing for? No NBA Championship, no gold medal....

Why bother? What if they get injured by playing for nothing?Sequ, you are a hypocrite :rolleyes

how about for the GLORY?

for brotherhood?

okay don't watch TV. ignore the WC.

act alone and you die alone.

[Obstructed_View]

Obstructed view:

And since you are convinced I talk shit about the US when they win, show me, I love to learn new things about myself.


You send a super duper dream team at a time where there is practically no competition and its "we are the best ever we own everyone we can demolish people in our sleep this is our sport". I mean if this was so irrevelant then why send half of the greatest 50 ever! Moreover at a time when there was practically no competition!

[zeleni]

Nice guys finish last on this planet.

Now that's wisdom right there. Respect!

[velik_m]

Yeah.. but the question is.....

WTF are they playing for? No NBA Championship, no gold medal....

Why bother? What if they get injured by playing for nothing?

But Sequ, they do get gold medals... :)

[diego]

I already said its best when you send your best, the point is make up your mind, are international tournaments irrelevant or not?? already some people are saying yes and others no.

I lived in the US from 84 to 94 (also 01 to 04) and i think most people cared a lot about the original dream team. and among basketball fans, more so. I can give you links to other BB forums full of evidence of the double standard I am criticizing.

I stand by my initial statement, some Americans only care about international competition when they win, and that is weak. If argentina loses this tournament, which is likely (ive been stating weaknesses of the team for weeks), I'll be the first to congradulate whoever wins. But I wont pull a "it doesnt matter, we dont really care about this, we're really a soccer nation and this is just a hobby of a few people" or some such BS.

[Obstructed_View]

If argentina loses this tournament, which is likely (ive been stating weaknesses of the team for weeks), I'll be the first to congradulate whoever wins. But I wont pull a "it doesnt matter, we dont really care about this, we're really a soccer nation and this is just a hobby of a few people" or some such BS.
So you are fine with pulling a "I told you we wouldn't win" after the fact by making sure your prediction of failure is on the record. Some might call that weak fandom. At least the saddle on your high horse is shiny.

[samikeyp]

Diego...if Argentina loses (personally I think they can still win this thing) will you feel it was because the team that beat them was better or because Argentina was weaker?

[zeleni]

So you are fine with pulling a "I told you we wouldn't win" after the fact by making sure your prediction of failure is on the record. Some might call that weak fandom. At least the saddle on your high horse is shiny.
I have to agree with diego on this one. To be a fan of a team and notice a team cannot achieve the optimum reserved for a championship is an educated fandom.
A person who is capable to explain in great detail why his team is not capable of winning the title is as big of a fan then who is screaming Go!Go! without knowing the rules of the game.
Weakest is a fan who doesn't look, doesn't care, but can bet on the events and pull up a flag, if by chance his side wins. That would be like a mechanic in San Antonio who never goes out of his garage and on the day of the Riverwalk puts out a sign: YEAH! GO SPURS GO! and drinks a beer to celebrate that sign. (I'm using the Spurs case, since the sign would be used almost annualy)

[samikeyp]

To me...a true fan stays with his or her team despite the circumstances. As a Spurs fan I have lived through the highs (three titles) and the lows (the days after Ice and before DRob) and I have never waivered and I know there are a lot of people here that are the same.

[diego]

I will always hope the team wins, now or in 10 years, and a part of me expects them to- this generation of players has earned a lot of faith, to the point where anything but 1st would be a disappointment. but i feel that the loss of certain vets and more importantly the new coach has subtracted some quality from argentina, and the competition has always been close. Im worried about Spain because we havent beaten them in over a decade and they have been in good form for a while now. The US is always tough but Im not too worried about this version of the team because i dont feel they have enough bigs to exploit argentinas biggest weakness, and they are very young. It still wont be easy to defeat them, for us or anyone else. As talented as Argentina is right now, we wont ever be close to the US in terms of skill level. but that still doesnt mean we cant play better ball.

I never said I expect Argentina to lose. But in these competitions it just takes one bad game to go out and Hernandez is nowhere near Magnano in terms of making a game plan and adjusting in game. That is why I have reservations, and it wouldnt surprise me if we were eliminated by spain before even reaching the final.

So it would depend on how we lost whether Ill attribute it to the other team being better or us not playing well. For ex: USA beat arg in the olympic qualifier by outplaying us; Yugoslavia beat us in 02 without our best player and with a horrible non-call in the last 10 sec.

In any case Im not going to stop watching basketball and rooting for my teams just because Arg or the Spurs get overcome by younger teams.

My club team in soccer is a disaster, in over 100 years of league play we have never won anything, and on several occasions we have lost the title on the last day of competition (Gimnasia y Esgrima de La Plata for my fellow argentines). I still wear their jersey and follow their games regardless of where I am.

[tlongII]

I will always hope the team wins, now or in 10 years, and a part of me expects them to- this generation of players has earned a lot of faith, to the point where anything but 1st would be a disappointment. but i feel that the loss of certain vets and more importantly the new coach has subtracted some quality from argentina, and the competition has always been close. Im worried about Spain because we havent beaten them in over a decade and they have been in good form for a while now. The US is always tough but Im not too worried about this version of the team because i dont feel they have enough bigs to exploit argentinas biggest weakness, and they are very young. It still wont be easy to defeat them, for us or anyone else. As talented as Argentina is right now, we wont ever be close to the US in terms of skill level. but that still doesnt mean we cant play better ball.

I never said I expect Argentina to lose. But in these competitions it just takes one bad game to go out and Hernandez is nowhere near Magnano in terms of making a game plan and adjusting in game. That is why I have reservations, and it wouldnt surprise me if we were eliminated by spain before even reaching the final.

So it would depend on how we lost whether Ill attribute it to the other team being better or us not playing well. For ex: USA beat arg in the olympic qualifier by outplaying us; Yugoslavia beat us in 02 without our best player and with a horrible non-call in the last 10 sec.

In any case Im not going to stop watching basketball and rooting for my teams just because Arg or the Spurs get overcome by younger teams.

My club team in soccer is a disaster, in over 100 years of league play we have never won anything, and on several occasions we have lost the title on the last day of competition (Gimnasia y Esgrima de La Plata for my fellow argentines). I still wear their jersey and follow their games regardless of where I am.


Dude, the USA is going to spank everybody in the WC's! I have already predicted that no team will get within 6 points of us. Look out cause we are going to PARTY!

[v2freak]

Although I probably would have gone about saying it in a different way, I do believe the US will finish first. That's not to say that they won't get a fight from other countries however.