Not in MY Country

[BIG IRISH]

DAMMIT

CHRISTOPHER LEAKE and ANDREW CHAPMAN / UK Daily Mail | August 20 2006

British holidaymakers staged an unprecedented mutiny - refusing to allow their flight to take off until two men they feared were terrorists were forcibly removed.

The extraordinary scenes happened after some of the 150 passengers on a Malaga-Manchester flight overheard two men of Asian appearance apparently talking Arabic.

Passengers told cabin crew they feared for their safety and demanded police action. Some stormed off the Monarch Airlines Airbus A320 minutes before it was due to leave the Costa del Sol at 3am. Others waiting for Flight ZB 613 in the departure lounge refused to board it.

The incident fuels the row over airport security following the arrest of more than 20 people allegedly planning the suicide-bombing of transatlantic jets from the UK to America. It comes amid growing demands for passenger-profiling and selective security checks.

It also raised fears that more travellers will take the law into their own hands - effectively conducting their own 'passenger profiles'.

The passenger revolt came as Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary was accused of using the terror crisis to make money. Government sources say he boasted to an official at the Transport Department: "Every time I appear on TV, I get a spike in sales."

The Tories said the Government's failure to reassure travellers had led the Malaga passengers to 'behave irrationally' and 'hand a victory to terrorists'.

Websites used by pilots and cabin crew were yesterday reporting further incidents. In one, two British women with young children on another flight from Spain complained about flying with a bearded Muslim even though he had been security-checked twice before boarding.

The trouble in Malaga flared last Wednesday as two British citizens in their 20s waited in the departure lounge to board the pre-dawn flight and were heard talking what passengers took to be Arabic. Worries spread after a female passenger said she had heard something that alarmed her.

Passengers noticed that, despite the heat, the pair were wearing leather jackets and thick jumpers and were regularly checking their watches.

Initially, six passengers refused to board the flight. On board the aircraft, word reached one family. To the astonishment of cabin crew, they stood up and walked off, followed quickly by others.

The Monarch pilot - a highly experienced captain - accompanied by armed Civil Guard police and airport security staff, approached the two men and took their passports.

Half an hour later, police returned and escorted the two Asian passengers off the jet.

'There was no fuss or panic'

Soon afterwards, the aircraft was cleared while police did a thorough security sweep. Nothing was found and the plane took off - three hours late and without the two men on board.

Monarch arranged for them to spend the rest of the night in an airport hotel and flew them back to Manchester later on Wednesday.

College lecturer Jo Schofield, her husband Heath and daughters Emily, 15, and Isabel, 12, were caught up in the passenger mutiny.

Mrs Schofield, 38, said: "The plane was not yet full and it became apparent that people were refusing to board. In the gate waiting area, people had been talking about these two, who looked really suspicious with their heavy clothing, scruffy, rough, appearance and long hair.

"Some of the older children, who had seen the terror alert on television, were starting to mutter things like, 'Those two look like they're bombers.'

"Then a family stood up and walked off the aircraft. They were joined by others, about eight in all. We learned later that six or seven people had refused to get on the plane.

"There was no fuss or panic. People just calmly and quietly got off the plane. There were no racist taunts or any remarks directed at the men.

"It was an eerie scene, very quiet. The children were starting to ask what was going on. We tried to play it down."

Mr Schofield, 40, an area sales manager, said: "When the men were taken off they didn't argue or say a word. They just picked up their coats and obeyed the police. They seemed resigned to the fact they were under suspicion.

"The captain and crew were very apologetic when we were asked to evacuate the plane for the security search. But there was no dissent.

"While we were waiting, everyone agreed the men looked dodgy. Some passengers were very panicky and in tears. There was a lot of talking about terrorists."

Patrick Mercer, the Tory Homeland Security spokesman, said last night: "This is a victory for terrorists. These people on the flight have been terrorised into behaving irrationally.

"For those unfortunate two men to be victimised because of the colour of their skin is just nonsense."

Monarch said last night: "The captain was concerned about the security surrounding the two gentlemen on the aircraft and the decision was taken to remove them from the flight for further security checks.

"The two passengers offloaded from the flight were later cleared by airport security and rebooked to travel back to Manchester on a later flight."

A spokesman for the Civil Guard in Malaga said: "These men had aroused suspicion because of their appearance and the fact that they were speaking in a foreign language thought to be an Arabic language, and the pilot was refusing to take off until they were escorted off the plane."

[Nbadan]

A spokesman for the Civil Guard in Malaga said: "These men had aroused suspicion because of their appearance and the fact that they were speaking in a foreign language thought to be an Arabic language, and the pilot was refusing to take off until they were escorted off the plane."

Maybe we should make 'them' wear yellow stars?

[Ocotillo]

Maybe we should make 'them' wear yellow stars?

Let's really piss them off and make them wear "Star of Davids"

[Nbadan]

I think the best argument against racial profiling is that to win the war on terra, if there is such a thing, is that the West will need the cooperation of moderate Muslims and Muslim groups and when they are searched and questioned 6 times on the same flight, that tends to make them a little bit less cooperative and weary of law enforcement.

[BIG IRISH]

No Dan hear is the best argument for racial profiling:

Racial profiling: A matter of survival
By Michelle Malkin
When our national security is on the line, "racial profiling" — or more precisely, threat profiling based on race, religion or nationality — is justified.

Targeted intelligence-gathering at mosques and in local Muslim communities, for example, makes perfect sense when we are at war with Islamic extremists.


Yet, last week, the FBI came under fire for questioning Muslims in Seattle about possible terrorist ties. Members of a local mosque complained to Rep. Jim McDermott, D-Wash., who called for a congressional investigation of the FBI's innocuous tactics. The American Civil Liberties Union of Washington accused the agency of "ethnic profiling."

But where else are federal agents supposed to turn for help in uncovering terrorist plots by Islamic fanatics: Buddhist temples? Knights of Columbus meetings? Amish neighborhoods? :lol

Some might argue that profiling is so offensive to fundamental American values that it ought to be prohibited, even if the prohibition jeopardizes our safety. Yet many of the ethnic activists and civil-liberties groups who object most strenuously to the use of racial, ethnic, religious and nationality classifications during war support the use of similar classifications to ensure "diversity" or "parity" in peacetime.

The civil-rights hypocrites have never met a "compelling government interest" for using racial, ethnicity or nationality classifications they didn't like, except when that compelling interest happens to be the nation's very survival.
"remember internment camps of WWII"

Missed opportunities

Consider what happened in summer 2001, when Phoenix FBI agent Kenneth Williams urged his superiors to investigate militant Muslim men whom he suspected of training in U.S. flight schools as part of al-Qaeda missions.

Williams' recommendation was rejected, FBI Director Robert Mueller later said, partly because of concerns that the plan could be viewed as discriminatory racial profiling.

Mueller acknowledged that if Williams' Phoenix profiling memo had been shared with the agency's Minneapolis office, which had unsuccessfully sought a special intelligence warrant to search suspected terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui's laptop computer, the warrant might have been granted.

If the FBI had taken Williams' advice, the feeling of some Arabs and Muslims might have been hurt. But the Twin Towers might still be standing and 3,000 innocent people might be alive today.

Absolutists who oppose national-security profiling often invoke the World War II experience of Japanese-Americans. When asked whether the 12 Muslim chaplains serving in the armed forces should be vetted more carefully than military rabbis or priests, Sarah Eltantawi of the Muslim Public Affairs Council raised the specter of Japanese internment.

The analogy is ridiculous. The more extensive screening of 12 military officers is a far cry from the evacuation of 112,000 individuals on the West Coast. The targeted profiling of Muslims serving in sensitive positions is not a constitutional crisis.

Some argue that the dismissal of charges against Army Capt. James Yee, a former Muslim chaplain who ministered to enemy combatants at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and was initially suspected of espionage, undermines the case for profiling of any kind. Not at all. As the Defense Department has acknowledged, the military's 12 Muslim chaplains were trained by a radical Wahhabi school and were certified by a Muslim group founded by Abdurahman Alamoudi, who was charged in September 2003 with accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars from Libya, a U.S.-designated sponsor of terrorism. These associations cannot be ignored.

Unfortunately, the Pentagon caved in to Eltantawi and her fellow travelers. Rather than focus exclusively on the 12 Muslim chaplains, it pressed forward with a review of all 2,800 military chaplains.

The refusal to be discriminating was, as Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., acknowledged, the "height of politically correct stupidity."

Smoke-and-mirrors arguments

In the wake of 9/11, opponents of profiling have shifted away from arguing against it because it is "racist" and now claim that it endangers security because it is a drain on resources and damages relations with ethnic and religious minorities, thereby hampering intelligence-gathering. These assertions are cleverly fine-tuned to appeal to post-9/11 sensibilities, but they are unfounded and disingenuous. The fact that al-Qaeda is using some non-Arab recruits does not render profiling moot. As long as we have open borders, Osama bin Laden will continue to send Middle East terrorists here by land, sea and air. Profiling is just one discretionary investigative tool among many.

Post-9/11, the belief that racial, religious and nationality profiling is never justified has become a dangerous bugaboo. It is unfortunate that loyal Muslims or Arabs might be burdened because of terrorists who share their race, nationality or religion.

But any inconvenience is preferable to suffering a second mass terrorist attack on American soil. Now do you get it :rolleyes

[ChumpDumper]

"It was an eerie scene, very quiet. The children were starting to ask what was going on. We tried to play it down."We're just being paranoid prisoners of our own fear, honey. With any luck, you will be too, soon.

[Nbadan]

But any inconvenience is preferable to suffering a second mass terrorist attack on American soil. Now do you get it

What does MM know about sacrafice? What has she sacraficed for the war on terra. Not a god-damn thing I bet.

[Nbadan]

But where else are federal agents supposed to turn for help in uncovering terrorist plots by Islamic fanatics: Buddhist temples? Knights of Columbus meetings? Amish neighborhoods?

Try the strip clubs. That's where some of the 911 conspirators hung out, including Mohamed Atta, and they bragged about what they were going to do.

[BIG IRISH]

Let's not get into MM but lets discuss what she has said:
and for that Matter what has the majority of people suffered/sacrficed except for delays at the airport and higher cost of gas?
A little fear, a surge of "America is # 1"
Hell even MAnny tried to enlist after 9/11 but he was to fat.
The only one that have my empathy are those that have familiy in the Military.

[Nbadan]

Mueller acknowledged that if Williams' Phoenix profiling memo had been shared with the agency's Minneapolis office, which had unsuccessfully sought a special intelligence warrant to search suspected terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui's laptop computer, the warrant might have been granted.

Would'a, could'a, should'a, Mueller can play these games every day of the week, but the fact remains he was at the helm of the FBI during one of the worst domestic intelligence fuck-ups ever!

[Nbadan]

Hell even MAnny tried to enlist after 9/11 but he was to fat.

:wow :lol

[BIG IRISH]

:wow :lol
He said he talked to the recuiter but the recuiter said he would have to loose weight. :lol

[Nbadan]

Consider what happened in summer 2001, when Phoenix FBI agent Kenneth Williams urged his superiors to investigate militant Muslim men whom he suspected of training in U.S. flight schools as part of al-Qaeda missions.

Williams' recommendation was rejected, FBI Director Robert Mueller later said, partly because of concerns that the plan could be viewed as discriminatory racial profiling.

Mueller spin. The FBI was caught with its pants down. It and the CIA lost track of Muhamed Atta when he re-entered the U.S. after Dubya took office in 2000, despite repeated warning from Hansburg Germany intelligence that Atta was meeting with Muslim Men who were suspected of planning terra activities. That group was later busted.

[BIG IRISH]

The constitutional test of whether and when racial classifications are legally permissible - the "compelling interest test" are clearly met given the current dire situation


British Police have created a clear profile of the terrorist: they are more likely to be young, male, Muslim, and non-white; the British have waved their interest in being "politically correct" and are applying this profile as they search tube passengers backpacks in London.



It simply makes sense and would be more efficient to target the minority groups that have proven to be most likely to commit terrorist crimes


Random searches make no sense: grandmas and girl scouts are unlikely terrorists


Unlike racial discrimination in hiring practices, for example, the payoff for targeting those who resemble the profile of a terrorist is potentially huge (e.g. saving hundreds if not thousands of lives) while the harm done is minimal (e.g. minor inconveniences, delays, hurt feelings)

There are two kinds of mistakes we could potentially make in regards to terrorism:

one is failing to identify terrorists because we don't want to offend anyone, and two, i
nvestigating someone who resembles the profile of a terrorist and upsetting them as a result if they are not a terrorist.

We as a society can learn to live with one of these mistakes, not the other


Yes there are Timothy Mcveighs and Unibombers, but if you look at just about every terrorist who has attacked American targets and interests, these are not the people currently posing the greatest level of threat


Profiling is misunderstood - it should be acceptable for law enforcement to establish a profile where multiple characteristics, including race and ethnicity, are defined

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Sure, racial profiling is fine if you're Irish... unless you were in Britain when the IRA was bombing pubs and garbage bins.

My point is, we whities are fine, but what about the millions of peaceful non-whites, and I use that term deliberately because most (ignorant) people will tell you that people outside their racial group "all look the same", how is it in any way fair to them? Do we not trust the tightened security? If we do, why do we need profiling? We don't, and it will only further inflame the anger in the world towards you and me, the big bad white man.

But now, after incidents like these, of course profiling will soon become a matter of course. We are heading for a worldwide race war, it will happen. It's just a matter of time. :depressed

[boutons_]

"But any inconvenience is preferable to suffering a second mass terrorist attack on American soil"

Easy to say when you're not a law-abiding, American citizen or legal immigrant of Arab/Muslim ethnicity. This situation is just like the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII.

Obviously, ethnic/religious profiling has its advantages, but the way it's done is often very crude, with people locked up (extra-ordinarily renditioned) and not charged for years for lack of evidence.

[Nbadan]

Eh, the whole war on terra is just a ploy to keep Mericans scared anyway. It's the whole Evil-Soviet threat play, again for the next generation, only this time it's Islamo-fascists who are the boogey-men that gonna come and take over your stuff, and tell ya how to live. True, there are radicalized Muslims who hate the U.S., and hate Israel, but the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, and just want to be free to live the American life of unbridled capitalism and taking advantage of the little guy.

[BIG IRISH]

True, there are radicalized Muslims who hate the U.S., and hate Israel, but the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, and just want to be free to live the American life of unbridled capitalism and taking advantage of the little guy.

A one word reply:









NOPE

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

A one word reply:









NOPE

See, that's where people like you doom us all. Yeah, just because they are "them", they don't love their families like we do or want to live in peace... they are THEM!

We, of course, are US! Us rule, because we love democracy and justice and peace love respect.

What UTTER HORSESHIT.

Yes, the small percentage of extremists out there want to slaughter you and me. By the same token, we have extremists like you who don't even believe people who are from different races/religions are human.

As I said, the race war is coming. And it is inevitable because of PEOPLE LIKE YOU on both sides of the divide.

The world is most definitely doomed by the ignorant. :depressed

[Nbadan]

As I said, the race war is coming. And it is inevitable because of PEOPLE LIKE YOU on both sides of the divide.

Don't be so hard on the I-man, at least he shares, most people would just as likely keep views like these to themselves. There are many, many people who think just like him. Some are scared, some are driven by a sense of nationalistic bravado, some are still traumatized by the memory of 9/11.

[BIG IRISH]

Don't be so hard on the I-man, at least he shares, most people would just as likely keep views like these to themselves. There are many, many people who think just like him. Some are scared, some are driven by a sense of nationalistic bravado, some are still traumatized by the memory of 9/11.

Thanks Dan

I'm really a TROLL
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48560

fully understand the difference between the classical definition and the Realpolitik of "trolling" (i.e. a verb/gerund describing the unbearable lightness of being a troll) we need to understand the difference between the vulgar English expression "shit disturber" and the French word "emerdeur". The very nature of the phrase "shit disturber" connotes someone who stirs up a pre-existing cauldron. An emerdeur, on the other hand, creates the (ahem) milieu and then immerses everyone into it. :angel



I'm not scared- I have inspected Nuke's, repaired Chemical Weapons,
had mortars and rockets explode around me. I've even been shot at!
and the only time I crapped in my pants was when I saw Becky Whetstone
without makeup. :lol

BTW if a race war comes, which side will my kids be on?
The Mexican side or the Gringo Side. :lol

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

That is true, Dan.

However I still cannot fathom the idea he is putting forth - that Muslims as a whole are somehow sub-human killing machines filled only with hate and bent entirely on destruction of whitey. That is a very dangerous idea, and an obvious lie.

[BIG IRISH]

That is true, Dan.

However I still cannot fathom the idea he is putting forth - that Muslims as a whole are somehow sub-human killing machines filled only with hate and bent entirely on destruction of whitey. That is a very dangerous idea, and an obvious lie.
Islamic Prophecies

The Final Signs of Qiyaamah (Islam)

The ground will cave in: one in the east, one in the west, and one in Hejaz, Saudi Arabia.

Fog or smoke will cover the skies for forty days.

The nonbelievers will fall unconscious, while Muslims will be ill (develop colds).

The skies will then clear up.

A night three nights long will follow the fog. It will occur in the month of Zil-Hajj after Eidul-Adha, and cause much restlessness among the people.

After the night of three nights, the following morning the sun will rise in the west.

People's repentance will not be accepted after this incident.

One day later, the Beast from the earth will miraculously emerge from Mount Safaa in Makkah, causing a split in the ground.

The beast will be able to talk to people and mark the faces of people, making the believers' faces glitter, and the nonbelievers' faces darkened.

A breeze from the south causes sores in the armpits of Muslims, which they will die of as a result.

The Ka'aba will be destroyed by non-Muslim African group.

Kufr will be rampant.

Haj will be discontinued.

The Qur'an will be lifted from the heart of the people, 30 years after the ruler Muquad's death.

The fire will follow people to Syria, after which it will stop.

Some years after the fire,

Qiyaamah begins with the Soor (trumpet) being blown.

The year is not known to any person.

Qiyaamah will come upon the worst of creation.


Fundamental practices and institutions of Islam
The Five Pillars

During the earliest decades after the death of the Prophet, certain basic features of the religio-social organization of Islam were singled out to serve as anchoring points of the community's life and formulated as the "Pillars of Islam." To these five, the Khawarij sect added a sixth pillar, the jihad, which, however, was not accepted by the general community.
Do your own research on this.

The shahadah, or profession of faith

The first pillar is the profession of faith: "There is no god but God; Muhammad is the prophet of God," upon which depends the membership in the community. The profession of faith must be recited at least once in one's lifetime, aloud, correctly, and purposively, with an understanding of its meaning and with an assent from the heart. From this fundamental belief are derived beliefs in (1) angels (particularly Gabriel, the Angel of Revelation), (2) the revealed Books (the Qur'an and the sacred books of Judeo-Christian revelation described in the Qur'an), (3) a series of prophets (among whom figures of the Judeo-Christian tradition are particularly eminent--although it is believed that God has sent messengers to every nation), and (4) the Last Day (Day of Judgment).

Prayer

The second pillar consists of five daily congregational prayers. These prayers may be offered individually if one is unable to go to the mosque. The first prayer is performed before sunrise, the second just after noon, the third in the later afternoon, the fourth immediately after sunset, and the fifth before retiring to bed.

Before a prayer, ablutions, including the washing of hands, face, and feet, are performed. The muezzin (one who gives the call for prayer) chants aloud from a raised place (such as a tower) in the mosque. When prayer starts, the imam, or leader (of the prayer), stands in the front facing in the direction of Mecca, and the congregation stands behind him in rows, following him in various postures. Each prayer consists of two to four genuflection units (rak'ah); each unit consists of a standing posture (during which verses from the Qur'an are recited--in certain prayers aloud, in others silently), as well as a genuflection and two prostrations. At every change in posture, "God is great" is recited. Tradition has fixed the materials to be recited in each posture.

Special congregational prayers are offered on Friday instead of the prayer just after noon. The Friday service consists of a sermon (khutbah), part of which consists of preaching in the local language and part of recitation of certain formulas in Arabic. In the sermon, the preacher usually recites a verse of the Qur'an and builds his address on it, which can be of a moral, social, or political content. Friday sermons have usually considerable impact on public opinion regarding sociopolitical questions.

Although not ordained as an obligatory duty, nocturnal prayers (called tahajjud) are encouraged, particularly during the latter half of the night. During the month of Ramadan (see below Fasting), lengthy prayers are offered congregationally before retiring and are called tarawih.

In strict doctrine, the five daily prayers cannot be waived even for the sick, who may pray in bed and, if necessary, lying down. When on a journey, the two afternoon prayers may be combined into one; the sunset and late evening prayers may be combined as well. In practice, however, much laxity has occurred, particularly in modern times, although Friday prayers are still well attended.

The Zakat

The third pillar is the obligatory tax called zakat ("purification," indicating that such a payment makes the rest of one's wealth religiously and legally pure). This is the only permanent tax levied by the Qur'an and is payable annually on food grains, cattle, and cash after one year's possession. The amount varies for different categories. Thus, on grains and fruits it is 10 percent if land is watered by rain, 5 percent if land is watered artificially.

On cash and precious metals it is 21/2 percent. Zakat is collectable by the state and is to be used primarily for the poor, but the Qur'an mentions other purposes: ransoming Muslim war captives, redeeming chronic debts, paying tax collectors' fees, jihad (and by extension, according to Qur'an commentators, education and health), and creating facilities for travellers.

After the breakup of Muslim religio-political power, payment of zakat has become a matter of voluntary charity dependent on individual conscience. Some Muslim countries are seeking to reintroduce it, and in several Middle Eastern countries zakat is officially collected, but on a voluntary basis.

Fasting

Fasting during the month of Ramadan (ninth month of the Muslim lunar calendar), laid down in the Qur'an (2:183-185), is the fourth pillar of the faith. Fasting begins at daybreak and ends at sunset, and during the day eating, drinking, and smoking are forbidden. The Qur'an (2:185) states that it was in the month of Ramadan that the Qur'an was revealed. Another verse of the Qur'an (97:1) states that it was revealed "on the night of determination," which Muslims generally observe on the night of 26-27 Ramadan. For a person who is sick or on a journey, fasting may be postponed until "another equal number of days." The elderly and the incurably sick are exempted through the daily feeding of one poor person.



The Hajj
The fifth pillar is the annual pilgrimage (hajj) to Mecca prescribed for every Muslim once in a lifetime--"provided one can afford it" and provided a person has enough provisions to leave for his family in his absence.

A special service is held in the Sacred Mosque on the 7th of the month of Dhu al-Hijjah (last in the Muslim year). Pilgrimage activities begin by the 8th and conclude on the 12th or 13th. All worshippers enter the state of ihram; they wear two seamless garments and avoid sexual intercourse, the cutting of hair and nails, and certain other activities. Pilgrims from outside Mecca assume ihram at specified points en route to the city.

The principal activities consist of walking seven times around the Ka'bah, a shrine within the mosque; the kissing and touching of the Black Stone (Hajar al-Aswad); and the ascent of and running between Mt. Safa and Mt. Marwah (which are now, however, mere elevations) seven times. At the second stage of the ritual, the pilgrim proceeds from Mecca to Mina, a few miles away; from there he goes to 'Arafat, where it is essential to hear a sermon and to spend one afternoon. The last rites consist of spending the night at Muzdalifah (between 'Arafat and Mina) and offering sacrifice on the last day of ihram, which is the 'id ("festival") of sacrifice.

Many countries have imposed restrictions on the number of outgoing pilgrims because of foreign-exchange difficulties. Because of the improvement of communications, however, the total number of visitors has greatly increased in recent years. By the early 1990s the number of visitors was estimated to be about 2,000,000, approximately half of them from non-Arab countries. All Muslim countries send official delegations on the occasion, which is being increasingly used for religio-political congresses. At other times in the year, it is considered meritorious to perform the lesser pilgrimage ('umrah), which is not, however, a substitute for the hajj pilgrimage.


http://www.brainshavings.com/images/vaporized.jpg

[Nbadan]

That is true, Dan.

However I still cannot fathom the idea he is putting forth - that Muslims as a whole are somehow sub-human killing machines filled only with hate and bent entirely on destruction of whitey. That is a very dangerous idea, and an obvious lie.

Obvious to us, since we see through the 'all-Muslims are evil' spin, but not so obvious for some to play on others people's discomfort with people of other ethnicity and religion. Americans have been socially isolated for so long by natural 'cultural-barriers’, some people view ethnicity and proud displays of heritage as being disrespectful of American culture and society. Why can't they assimilate? We assimilated?

[BIG IRISH]

Obvious to us, since we see through the 'all-Muslims are evil' spin, but not so obvious for some to play on others people's discomfort with people of other ethnicity and religion. Americans have been socially isolated for so long by natural 'cultural-barriers’, some people view ethnicity and proud displays of heritage as being disrespectful of American culture and society. Why can't they assimilate? We assimilated?


Muslims do not want to assimilate.

In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin.

But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all.

We have room for but one flag, the American flag ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

He went on to say:
"The effort to keep our citizenship divided against itself," the colonel continued, "by the use of the hyphen and along the lines of national origin is certain to a breed of spirit of bitterness and prejudice and dislike between great bodies of our citizens.

If some citizens band together as German-Americans or Irish-Americans, then after a while others are certain to band together as English-Americans or Scandinavian-Americans, and every such banding together, every attempt to make for political purposes a German-American alliance or a Scandinavian-American alliance, means down at the bottom an effort against the interest of straight-out American citizenship, an effort to bring into our nation the bitter Old World rivalries amd jealousies and hatreds."

I'm sure he would have included Muslim-American, Mexican-American, etc

[Nbadan]

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

Ah, the patron-saint of old school Republicans. T.R. loved San Antonio.

[BIG IRISH]

Ah, the patron-saint of old school Republicans. T.R. loved San Antonio.

Yep:
among his many notable achievements was his selection as a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate for his part in the negotiations leading to the Treaty of Portsmouth that ended the Russo-Japanese War in 1905.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, that turned out well.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin.

But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all.

We have room for but one flag, the American flag ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.

wow... scary

[Yonivore]

wow... scary
Okay, put another way, we should not allow our government to facilitate an emigree's ability not to assimilate.

1) Make English the official language of the United States.

2) Don't provide any government service or publication in any other language.

3) Deport those who are here illegally.

4) Arrest those who harbor or transport illegal aliens for money, fine the rest.

5) Don't provide welfare resources to non-citizens.

That'd about do it.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

1) Make English the official language of the United States.

2) Don't provide any government service or publication in any other language.
these first two are MORONIC! what the hell do you think they are going to accomplish?

[Yonivore]

these first two are MORONIC! what the hell do you think they are going to accomplish?
Assimilation.

[1369]

these first two are MORONIC! what the hell do you think they are going to accomplish?

Question Manu, does Argentina produce documents in languages other than Spanish? Are there (since I don't konw) a large influx of Brazilians needing Portuguese translations (even though when I worked in Brazil, Spanish was passable for them to understand)? How about folks from China or other Asian countries that would require translations to languages they can understand?

[Mr. Peabody]

Assimilation.

Assimilate to what? What group are you using as your standard to which these immigrants must assimilate?

[Mr. Peabody]

Question Manu, does Argentina produce documents in languages other than Spanish? Are there (since I don't konw) a large influx of Brazilians needing Portuguese translations (even though when I worked in Brazil, Spanish was passable for them to understand)? How about folks from China or other Asian countries that would require translations to languages they can understand?

Is there a large Chinese speaking population in Argentina?

[1369]

Is there a large Chinese speaking population in Argentina?

In my work experience in South America, not only are countries importing Asian workers, but the Chinese government is making large in roads into some of those countries (Forestry and roads/bridges). I'm not looking to throw rocks at Manu, I was just curious to see if Argentina had language/immigration issues to deal with, and how they were dealing with them.

[FromWayDowntown]

I don't know how one can begin to accurately profile "muslims" in any meaningful way. I mean, you could begin with investigating those who have a "middle eastern" look, but radical muslims aren't just "middle eastern." You could expand that to include those who have the earmarks of the stereotypical radical muslim, but of course, the 9/11 gang showed that it's rather easy to convincingly change one's appearance to apparently assimilate, if one wanted to. I guess you could expand that even further to include those with "middle eastern" surnames, but I don't suppose that a name like Richard Reid would have aroused much suspicion in that scenario.

Maybe we should compel individuals to disclose their religious preferences when buying airline tickets -- or, better yet, compel such disclosures for the purposes of issuing state or federal identification cards.

In other news, XENOPHOBIA rules!

[RandomGuy]

Humiliating and marginalizing people is the fastest way to create new extremists, as Gitmo and Abu Gharaib et al. demonstrate. Take a moderate and subject him/her to the above and you get an extremist.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Thank you for some sense there RG.


Muslims do not want to assimilate.

In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin.

But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all.

We have room for but one flag, the American flag ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

He went on to say:
"The effort to keep our citizenship divided against itself," the colonel continued, "by the use of the hyphen and along the lines of national origin is certain to a breed of spirit of bitterness and prejudice and dislike between great bodies of our citizens.

If some citizens band together as German-Americans or Irish-Americans, then after a while others are certain to band together as English-Americans or Scandinavian-Americans, and every such banding together, every attempt to make for political purposes a German-American alliance or a Scandinavian-American alliance, means down at the bottom an effort against the interest of straight-out American citizenship, an effort to bring into our nation the bitter Old World rivalries amd jealousies and hatreds."

I'm sure he would have included Muslim-American, Mexican-American, etc

I totally disagree with your premise. To "assimilate" suggests that somehow the person must be Borgified, entirely lose their identity, which is absurd. No-one can move from one place to another and instantly understand the language and cultural rules of the new place. We are not the Borg, nor should we want to be, so forcing people to "assimilate" is ridiculous. Adjust? Fine. Swear loyalty to? No problem with that either. And what actually happens is that people do slowly become one with their new surroundings and those new surroundings become home. It just can't happen overnight.

Also, do you realise you are espousing exactly what you despise! You claim all Muslims want to kill us, when you effectively want to do the same thing to the identity of anyone who comes to the US!? Do you see the absudity of that?

What is wrong with people coming to our countries, becoming loyal citizens, but still retaining their religious/cultural heritage? Australia is becoming quite multicultural and I have friends, mostly 2nd-generation immigrants (ie. their parents came here 15-30 years ago), who retain some of the culture and language of their parents but are as Australian as I am. The speak with an Aussie accent, think like Aussies, behave like Aussies - THEY ARE AUSSIES! However, they were not forced to "assimilate" as you describe it.

If you look into the history of immigration, that is the typical path. The first generation arrive in their new country, struggle with language and culture but create a better life for their kids (often by opening businesses or doing menial jobs for 16 hours a day). The second generation grow up in Australia/US and are as Australian/American as you and I, but also have an understanding of their heritage through their parents. What the hell is wrong with that?


Okay, put another way, we should not allow our government to facilitate an emigree's ability not to assimilate.

1) Make English the official language of the United States.

2) Don't provide any government service or publication in any other language.

3) Deport those who are here illegally.

4) Arrest those who harbor or transport illegal aliens for money, fine the rest.

5) Don't provide welfare resources to non-citizens.

That'd about do it.

You know what the irony here is...who do you think does most of the back-breaking, soul-destroying menial labour in the US??? It sure ain't the white middle-class... it's recent IMMIGRANTS, both legal and illegal.

Taking away the massive population of underpaid, underprotected cheap immigrant labour in the US would have a disastrous effect on your economy, not to mention the other side of the equation which is the demand created by those people for basic goods and services. You'd actually be shooting yourself in the foot.

Your society is not in trouble because of the immigrants, they actually revitalise and diversify a culture and an economy. It is the moral vacuum, the lack of meaningful direction, the immense luxury taken for granted that afflicts the entire developed world.

Shortly before the fall of Rome, its reach had gone as far as it could and the populace became obsessed with their own comfort. Today, we stand on the same precipice, only the stakes are far higher, global-scale.

[BIG IRISH]

Breathe from the heart, not the lungs,
Speak from the heart, not the tongue
-Michael Frante

.
Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds.

The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.

Albert Einstein

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48727

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Irish, did you even bother to read what I wrote?

The left are the ones "who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly", the right controls the entire frame of the debate!

How long has your family been in the US? 4 or 5 generations? Mine is a 5 generation Australian family.

We come from immigrant nations, we all emigrated here in the recent past fer christsake. And guess what, your people and the Italians were persecuted by the locals less than a century ago when you all started flooding to America... shall we continue the cycle, or try out something better?

[BIG IRISH]

Irish, did you even bother to read what I wrote?

The left are the ones "who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly", the right controls the entire frame of the debate!

Have you ever talked with a Born-Again Christian? They choose to express thier opinions, courageously, honestly and may I say blindly!! also, try the Jews, Catholics, etc

How long has your family been in the US? 4 or 5 generations? Mine is a 5 generation Australian family.

Since the early 1700's and yes I am aware of the many NINA and
No Irish or Dogs allowed signs, my Great-Grandfather had a collection of them.

We come from immigrant nations, we all emigrated here in the recent past fer christsake. And guess what, your people,

nope it was only recently that everybody started to want to be Irish
and the Italians were persecuted by the locals less than a century ago
Wrong-the Irish have been looked down upon, almost since we set foot on Plymouth Rock.
when you all started flooding to America...
Your point? shall we continue the cycle, or try out something better?
What do you have in Mind?


BTW- I was in Sidney in December 1968, however as a young GI on R&R
from Nam, I didn't get out of the Kings Cross Area, excpet for a Dinner
with a family from Philly that had settled there.

I was in a Bar and the Bartender told me my money was no good. I wasn't
allowed to buy drinks, they loaded me in a taxi and sent me to my hotel
somewhere around 4 in the morning. Good times :elephant

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

What I have in mind is not blindly believing that all Muslims are subhuman killing machines and instead welcoming the people who come to our countries (remember, they are carefully screened by our govts before they are allowed to enter), offering them help to adjust, and rebuilding communities and connections between communities in general.

I'm suggesting not writing people off because of their colour or creed, and giving them a chance to become loyal, productive members of our societies as the vast majority of them, INCLUDING OUR PARENTS, have done. As I wrote above, by the 2nd generation, immigrants are generally as Aussie/American as you or I. I have seen this first hand growing up!

Anyway, whatever. If I have to spell it out it has no chance. Obviously I am the crazy one here.

[BIG IRISH]

What I have in mind is not blindly believing that all Muslims are subhuman killing machines and instead welcoming the people who come to our countries (remember, they are carefully screened by our govts before they are allowed to enter), offering them help to adjust, and rebuilding communities and connections between communities in general.

I'm suggesting not writing people off because of their colour or creed, and giving them a chance to become loyal, productive members of our societies as the vast majority of them, INCLUDING OUR PARENTS, have done. As I wrote above, by the 2nd generation, immigrants are generally as Aussie/American as you or I. I have seen this first hand growing up!

Anyway, whatever. If I have to spell it out it has no chance. Obviously I am the crazy one here.

I don't believe that "ALL' Muslims are subhuman killing machines, but I do believe that the majority of Muslims are devout and do not stand a chance
to be productive members of an american society.


they are carefully screened by our govts before they are allowed to enter), offering them help to adjust, and rebuilding communities and connections between communities in general

Maybe in your country, they are screened carefully, not in mine.
The first thing they get is a fistload of credit cards and government/small business loans, that most 4th and 5 generation americans, Blacks,
American Indians,Mexicans, cannot get!

It would be nice to get along with everyone, but It is not going to happen.

No matter how many right wingers are waiting for the War in the ME to be over so they can go save the Heathens! or how many liberals think if just Bush was not President this would all go away..


IMO the difference in Religion, Greed, Want for Land/resources, Culture,Skin tones, along with Close minded individuals, both from the left and the right.
will allow the world to continue as it has for years: but the muslim religion is a threat to the american way of life.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Yeah, you know what, I guess our countries are in very different situations too. I don't agree with what you say, but then I'm not American.

However, the one idea I totally oppose is that Islam is any more dangerous than any other religion... to me, extremism is the enemy, in any religion or ideology. Extremist terrorists have come from every religion, even Tibetan buddhists in the 50s resisting CHina resorted to guerilla and terorist tactics. It is poverty, persecution and injustice that pushes people to extremism.

I KNOW peaceful Muslim people, and they are just like peaceful Chistians, Mormons, Buddhists, etc. I live in the same building as a Muslim family. They are good neighbours. One of my best friends in Okinawa was a New Yorker from a Muslim family who was just resigned to being strip searched every time he went through the airport. This guy loves breasts and beer and baseball - he is as American as any American I know!? There is not an ounce of terrorist in him yet he is persecuted for his looks and name.

I just wish my country would get out of your wars and start focusing on our own country and region.

[BIG IRISH]

Yeah, you know what, I guess our countries are in very different situations too. I don't agree with what you say, but then I'm not American.

However, the one idea I totally oppose is that Islam is any more dangerous than any other religion... to me, extremism is the enemy, in any religion or ideology. Extremist terrorists have come from every religion, even Tibetan buddhists in the 50s resisting CHina resorted to guerilla and terorist tactics. It is poverty, persecution and injustice that pushes people to extremism.



I KNOW peaceful Muslim people, and they are just like peaceful Chistians, Mormons, Buddhists, etc. I live in the same building as a Muslim family. They are good neighbours. One of my best friends in Okinawa was a New Yorker from a Muslim family who was just resigned to being strip searched every time he went through the airport. This guy loves breasts and beer and baseball - he is as American as any American I know!? There is not an ounce of terrorist in him yet he is persecuted for his looks and name.

I just wish my country would get out of your wars and start focusing on our own country and region.

I just wish my country would get out of your wars and start focusing on our own country and region I can understand that, However I am thankful
that your country has been in "OUR" wars, i.e, WWII & Nam. The world would be quite different had in not, trust me.


While I can agree with a point of view, that not all Muslim are bad. I do believe the the Muslim religion, itself teaches extremism. To say that all Muslims are bad would be like saying all Irish are drunks.

I still feel that the True Muslim religion is a threat to the American Way of life and you would have to rip that idea from my mind and replace it with something else.

G-Day
Mate

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I would replace "True Muslim" with "extremist Muslim".

U mean G'Day! ;)

Hey pal.

WWII we all had to be in, and fair enough. Vietnam I can't really comment on, it was before my time and I don't know which history to believe. But the two gulf wars and Afghanistan... we shouldn't be there. We have East Timor, Fiji, the Solomons and PNG to worry about, not to mention those genocidal Indonesians (what they are doing in West Papua and Aceh is dispicable).

Sadly, Australia has fought in every major war for the last 120 years, first for the Brits, then the US. We should keep more to ourselves like NZ and Canada. We have anough work to do peace-keeping the Pacific Fringe.

[BIG IRISH]

I would replace "True Muslim" with "extremist Muslim".

U mean G'Day! ;)

Hey pal.

WWII we all had to be in, and fair enough. Vietnam I can't really comment on, it was before my time and I don't know which history to believe. But the two gulf wars and Afghanistan... we shouldn't be there. We have East Timor, Fiji, the Solomons and PNG to worry about, not to mention those genocidal Indonesians (what they are doing in West Papua and Aceh is dispicable).

Sadly, Australia has fought in every major war for the last 120 years, first for the Brits, then the US. We should keep more to ourselves like NZ and Canada. We have anough work to do peace-keeping the Pacific Fringe.

I'm not so sure about Afganistan, but I agree that you have your hands full enough at home.

Psssssssst Maybe just a little bit more of isolation by America would be nice.
Oh Shit-here comes the liberals and the New World order-repubs.

[Jelly]

Muslims do not want to assimilate.

In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin.

But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all.

We have room for but one flag, the American flag ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

He went on to say:
"The effort to keep our citizenship divided against itself," the colonel continued, "by the use of the hyphen and along the lines of national origin is certain to a breed of spirit of bitterness and prejudice and dislike between great bodies of our citizens.

If some citizens band together as German-Americans or Irish-Americans, then after a while others are certain to band together as English-Americans or Scandinavian-Americans, and every such banding together, every attempt to make for political purposes a German-American alliance or a Scandinavian-American alliance, means down at the bottom an effort against the interest of straight-out American citizenship, an effort to bring into our nation the bitter Old World rivalries amd jealousies and hatreds."

I'm sure he would have included Muslim-American, Mexican-American, etc

Big Irish, please read the words in bold. So, are you going to assimilate and become American or continue to identify yourself as Irish?

[Yonivore]

assimilation is a two-way street. God I love Tex-Mex.
That's cultural aquisition not assimilation.