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View Full Version : is priest holmes greater then e smith



ducks
10-24-2004, 11:35 PM
when he was in his prime?

I say yes

Mark in Austin
10-25-2004, 09:08 AM
if Priest Holmes was running behind the offensive line Emmitt had in Dallas's title years, he would be putting up video game numbers.

IcemanCometh
10-25-2004, 11:08 AM
uhm no

2pac
10-25-2004, 12:24 PM
Holmes is yet another example of talent not developing at Texas.

samikeyp
10-25-2004, 12:29 PM
actually when Holmes was there...they won the Big XII....B.M. (Before Mack)

Ducks only says that because he is anti-Cowboy. :)

2pac
10-25-2004, 01:24 PM
Being on a team that won a championship doesnt mean that his talent was developed while on the team.

Holmes had a lot more to offer Texas and Baltimore, but his abilities weren't brought out until well coached in KC.

Its a shame that Texas has a legacy of under-developing players.

Roy Williams came into the NFL and started tearing things up - as everyone suspected, but if you look at his 4 years in orange, he never really honed his skills.

Chris Simms said that he wasnt any better when he left Texas than when he got there.

IcemanCometh
10-25-2004, 01:37 PM
uhm priest was so underdeveloped that ricky williams (you know the guy that broke the all time rushing record) had to play his fullback. what happened was he tore his acl in spring of 95 missing the entire season, he bounced back and had a pretty good year but ricky had already emerged as a stud. billick was just a moron with the ravens and he exploded with the chiefs.

FromWayDowntown
10-25-2004, 01:43 PM
I've known Priest for a long time. Personally, I thought he got lost in the shuffle at Texas because Mackovic fell in love with Williams and, for whatever reason, Mitchell. When Mitchell got hurt against Nebraska in the first Big XII title game, and when the black shirts rendered Ricky ineffective, Priest saved the day for the Horns. I don't think it was a matter of his talent going undeveloped at Texas, I think it was more a matter of concern that his lack of either size or pure speed would make him an ineffective every-down back.

If UT underutilized Priest, so did Brian Billick -- and for much the same reason. After all, Priest goes for 1,000 yards in 1998, gets hurt in 1999, and then gets uprooted when the Ravens drafted Jamal Lewis in 2000. Billick has said that the Ravens never thought Priest could be effective getting 35-40 touches per game -- that he was too brittle. Guess he was wrong about that one.

I personally think it's hard to compare Priest to Emmitt. Emmitt is clearly one of the top 5 backs to ever play football. Priest has had 3 fantastic years (among the greatest in league history) and is in the midst of a 4th. Hopefully it continues -- he's an absolutely wonderful guy and deserves every bit of success he's achieved. I think he's nudging himself into the Hall-of-Fame discussion. If you look at his numbers, he's butting up into Terrell Davis territory; but that also puts him in the range of guys like Chris Warren, Freeman McNeil, and James Brooks -- all of whom were nice players, but none of whom were hall-of-fame worthy.

2pac
10-25-2004, 01:44 PM
Ricky played full as a fish because the starting job was already won.

How many coaches bench a senior in favor of a freshman?

FromWayDowntown
10-25-2004, 01:51 PM
Ricky played full as a fish because the starting job was already won.

How many coaches bench a senior in favor of a freshman?

That's not right. Ricky played fullback as a fish because Mackovic played Shon Mitchell. Priest was a 3rd down back who got some carries on the goalline. I'll try to find the statistics, but I'm sure that I can prove that to be true.

2pac
10-25-2004, 01:55 PM
That's not right. Ricky played fullback as a fish because Mackovic played Shon Mitchell. Priest was a 3rd down back who got some carries on the goalline. I'll try to find the statistics, but I'm sure that I can prove that to be true.

That would only go to prove what I am saying - Texas does not utilize and develop talent. Shon Mitchell playing over Priest as a senior? Priest as a 3rd dn back.

Ricky could have probably used a little less time in the weight room and a little more in a shrink's office.

FromWayDowntown
10-25-2004, 02:04 PM
That would only go to prove what I am saying - Texas does not utilize and develop talent. Shon Mitchell playing over Priest as a senior? Priest as a 3rd dn back.

Fair enough. There's no doubt that Priest didn't get much burn at UT (or in Baltimore) and that his underutilization in both places has made the coaches in those situations look foolish.

The question in this thread isn't about how well UT utilizes talent, but whether Priest is comparable to Emmitt Smith. I'll change the question a bit: given what Priest has done, does anyone think he's worthy of hall-of-fame consideration, and why or why not?

samikeyp
10-25-2004, 02:41 PM
Priest was MVP of the Sun Bowl one year and was a big part of the Big XII championship game. Must have been doing something right. You can't blame the whole history of the school. There were different coaching staffs with different philosophies. He was also fighting injuries at UT which, unfairly to him, did not help his cause. Besides, sometimes players do not hit their strides until the NFL. Guys like Terrell Davis and Jamal Anderson. Just like a lot of players are great in college and can't make it in the pros. Wondering why Priest would be a third down back at UT doesn't make sense because you are thinking of the player as he is now instead of then. FWD is right, the question is about Holmes now and not at UT. IMO, if he continues what he is doing for at least five more years, he should merit serious consideration for the HOF.

2pac
10-25-2004, 02:47 PM
RIght now he doesnt warrant consideration for the HOF. He hasnt been a top back long enough. His career more closely resembles Terrell Davis than Walter Payton.

samikeyp
10-25-2004, 02:48 PM
Agreed. Hopefully, he has a lot more football left in him.

FromWayDowntown
10-25-2004, 03:01 PM
Okay, here's a little fodder for that hall-of-fame discussion:

Priest (as of this moment) is 33rd all-time in rushing and is 52nd all-time in total yards from scrimmage. I agree that neither is hall-worthy at this point. But, he owns several NFL records, including single-season touchdowns. An another point: of the 50 greatest single season yards from scrimmage totals, Priest owns 3 (he has the 6th, 19th, and 29th best seasons) -- only three players in NFL history own more of the top 50 marks, Marshall Faulk, Walter Payton, and Eric Dickerson (each has 4) and all of them are either in the hall-of-fame, or are sure bets to get there. Preist Holmes and Marshall Faulk are the only 2 players in NFL history to exceed 2,100 total yards in at least 3 seasons.

To me, Priest is becoming the Terrell Davis argument. There are those who say that Terrell Davis is in the Gale Sayers category, and warrants hall-of-fame consideration despite the limited number of years he played. Priest is butting into that territory, if only because he got a late start. But he's putting up sublime seasons -- if he can stay healthy, this should be his 4th straight 2,100+ yard season, and he should finish with somewhere around 20 TD's. I guess the question is whether those types of all-time seasons -- even in the absence of huge career numbers -- warrant consideration for the hall-of-fame.

pooh
10-25-2004, 04:22 PM
I think that Holmes needs to put up some more big years before he can even be put up there with the Paytons' and Smiths'. Granted breaking the rushing TD record in a season is impressive, lets see something else.

Where's the heroic performance? I.E. Payton playing with flu and running for 277 yds? Emmitt playing with a badly separated shoulder to lead the Cowboys to a division clinching win over the Giants in '93?

He's good...but not great. Least not yet that is.

FromWayDowntown
10-25-2004, 04:44 PM
I think that Holmes needs to put up some more big years before he can even be put up there with the Paytons' and Smiths'. Granted breaking the rushing TD record in a season is impressive, lets see something else.

Where's the heroic performance? I.E. Payton playing with flu and running for 277 yds? Emmitt playing with a badly separated shoulder to lead the Cowboys to a division clinching win over the Giants in '93?

He's good...but not great. Least not yet that is.

I don't think anyone (well, anyone other than ducks) is trying to cast Priest among the elite of the elite, but as time goes by, I do think that Priest is beginning to separate himself from many of his contemporaries and a lot of players who've been treated well historically. I agree that he probably needs another year or two to firmly get himself into the hall-of-fame mix -- that, or 10,000 rushing yards, which is much like 500 home runs (it's gold for everyone but Ottis Anderson so far). With that said, he's closing in rapidly on some pretty good company -- assuming no injuries and continued successes, he'll likely pass Larry Csonka on the all-time rushing list at some point this season. Again, assuming all goes well, he'll be in range to pass guys like Roger Craig, Jim Taylor, Joe Perry and Herschel Walker next season. That doesn't count those he's passing on the total yardage and touchdown lists.

I don't think a heroic performance is a necessary prerequisite for entry into the hall-of-fame. There aren't any heroic performances for guys like Franco Harris, Earl Campbell, or John Riggins. But his guttiness in coming back from that hip injury/surgery last year was pretty remarkable. And the guy just doesn't miss games. It's unfortunate for Priest that in an era of self-promoters, he's one of the most self-effacing guys in the NFL and, therefore, one of the more underrated players in the league.

2pac
10-25-2004, 04:57 PM
Priest doesnt have to promote himself for people to reconize. People know the records. People know he, Tony G and Dante Hall carry the Chiefs.

No way in hell is Priest underrated.

FromWayDowntown
10-25-2004, 05:01 PM
No way in hell is Priest underrated.

I guess we'll disagree about that. I hear him mentioned behind guys like Tomlinson, Green, and Portis in discussions about the best back in the game today. I rarely hear the wonks who talk football on Sundays mention Priest before any of those guys. Maybe I'm sensitive about it because I know the guy, but I just don't think he's universally recognized for being the best back in the game today, and I don't see how anyone can really dispute his place as the best back going for the last 4 years.

2pac
10-25-2004, 05:18 PM
I dont think he has been the best in each of the last few years. I think Tomlinson is the best RB in the NFL.

On a sorry team with no passing last year, Tomlinson stood out. At least Green can throw the ball. Last year's Chargers were so inept at passing that teams could stack against LT.

Tomlinson
1645 Yards
5.3 YPC
725 receiving yards
2 Fumbles (both kept by the Chargers)

Holmes
1420 Yards
4.4 YPC
690 receiving
1 fumble (lost)

Green
1883 yards
5.3 YPC
367 receiving

IcemanCometh
10-25-2004, 05:49 PM
like i said priest was injured ricky's freshman year in 95. Ricky was the fullback for mitchell the replacement. even then ricky still managed to break earl campbell's freshamn rushing record. when priest came back the next year ricky still was the fb in mackovics crazy system, but he got like 1000+ yards and priest got like 13 tds. Priest getting sun bowl mvp was in 94, priest scoring against nebraska was in 96 off a ricky block btw.

whottt
10-25-2004, 06:05 PM
Man that must be some good crack..

Priest Holmes greater than Emmitt? Um no.

Oh you mean right now? Sure...a little bit better...but Emmitt's 35 years old.

Priest is a great running back though...just not in Emmitt's league.

Incidentally, Emmitt had his 78th career 100 yard game yesterday and is on pace for 1200 yards and 13 TD's.

If the man rushes for 1200 yards at the age of 35 for the Arizona Cardinals...it's pretty much going to put to rest that his was all his O line. As Jimmy Johnson said...Emmitt's best talent was seeing the holes before they were there...he made his O line better and his best skill was utilizing his O line.

Also Emmitt has been hit more than any other player in history...he's one of the toughest players ever, if not the toughest.

FromWayDowntown
10-25-2004, 06:20 PM
Like I said, I'll have to agree to disagree on the Priest being underrated thing. I happen to think the guy is the best back going because his week-to-week numbers show only small variation (for the most part). Tomlinson will get you 200 one week and get you 50 the next. To take them back a generation, to me Tomlinson is a bit like Barry Sanders, and Priest is like Emmitt Smith (but not better than Emmitt). I will always take a guy who will consistently get me 4.5 over a guy who can occasionally break it 80, but will lose yardage 10 times per game.

To settle the UT thing once and for all, here are the relevant UT numbers:

1995
Ricky Williams - 166 carries, 990 yards, 8 TD
Shon Mitchell - 176 carries, 1,099 yards, 10 TD
Priest Holmes - DNP

1996
Ricky Williams - 205 carries, 1272 yards, 12 TD
Shon Mitchell - 117 carries, 625 yards, 4 TD
Priest Holmes - 59 carries, 324 yards, 13 TD

scott
10-25-2004, 08:51 PM
Priest sure was a bad ass for Marshall High School, I can tell you that much... but no, not better than Emmitt.

2pac
10-25-2004, 09:40 PM
I thought he went to Judson, when the Rockets were so good?

(I never followed HS ball so I could easily be wrong.)

FromWayDowntown
10-26-2004, 10:34 AM
I thought he went to Judson, when the Rockets were so good?

I think you're thinking of Jerod Douglas. I'm absolutely certain that Priest played at Marshall, since we were teammates there. And he did play at Marshall when the Rams were so good -- 1989-91, culminating in a State Finals appearance against Permian at Texas Stadium; the first state football final for any Northside school.

samikeyp
10-26-2004, 10:36 AM
No, he went to Marshall, where he went by his middle name, Anthony.

FWD...did you know someone on that team by the name of Dusty Baker?

FromWayDowntown
10-26-2004, 01:44 PM
FWD...did you know someone on that team by the name of Dusty Baker?

I know a guy named Dusty Baker from Marshall around that time, but I don't recall him playing football beyond his freshman or maybe sophomore year.

samikeyp
10-26-2004, 03:17 PM
did you graduate with Priest in '91?

FromWayDowntown
10-26-2004, 05:03 PM
Actually, Priest graduated in 1992.

I graduated a couple of years before that in 1990. In the fall of 1989, when Priest played his first varsity season as a sophomore, I was a senior.

samikeyp
10-26-2004, 06:23 PM
my bad.

cool....I know Dusty and he said he played varsity football at Marshall and he graduated in 1991. He also said he played QB....I have always followed HS football, especially NISD being a graduate, and I never heard his name mentioned. I figured he was pulling my chain.

FromWayDowntown
10-26-2004, 06:30 PM
cool....I know Dusty and he said he played varsity football at Marshall and he graduated in 1991. He also said he played QB

Treading cautiously, because I don't want to rat anyone out, but here's what I know about that guy: He played QB as a freshman, but I'm pretty certain that he never played a down of varsity football, much less any downs at quarterback in that era. Earliest he could have played varsity would have been the fall of 1988, but I was the Center on that team and I can assure you that Dusty didn't play QB that year. Tim Yarbrough and Richard Mundine platooned at QB in 1989, but Dusty wasn't either of those guys. In 1990, the last year he could have played, Marshall platooned with guys named Marc Saldana and David Sammon, both of whom were juniors and split time the next season, too, when Marshall went to the state final. Unless Dusty played some mop up time behind those guys in 1990 (and I'm almost absolutely certain that he didn't -- Marshall coaches didn't keep 3 quarterbacks back then; they had 2 and an emergency QB who primarily played another position) he couldn't have played QB at Marshall.

samikeyp
10-26-2004, 06:43 PM
That's what I thought too. No problem bro. It's all good.

timvp
10-26-2004, 06:43 PM
cool....I know Dusty and he said he played varsity football at Marshall and he graduated in 1991. He also said he played QB....I have always followed HS football, especially NISD being a graduate, and I never heard his name mentioned. I figured he was pulling my chain.

Somehow I'm not surprised.

:hat

samikeyp
10-26-2004, 06:53 PM
:lol

Louae
10-27-2004, 11:35 AM
If the man rushes for 1200 yards at the age of 35 for the Arizona Cardinals...it's pretty much going to put to rest that his was all his O line. As Jimmy Johnson said...Emmitt's best talent was seeing the holes before they were there...he made his O line better and his best skill was utilizing his O line.

Also Emmitt has been hit more than any other player in history...he's one of the toughest players ever, if not the toughest.

truer words were never spoken

2pac
10-27-2004, 11:40 AM
Zona's line ain't bad.

Leonard Davis
LJ Shelton
Wells
Bridges

Zona has always had a strong emphasis on the OLine.

Morphgizmo
10-27-2004, 03:12 PM
I graduated from Holmes in '91 and vivdly remember watching the Huskies get killed versus Marshall that year (or was it '90?). As I recall, Marshall played a power offense featuring a full-house backfied with Holmes and a few other good backs. I think they threw like 8 passes the entire game choosing instead to cram it down the D's throat. If memory serves, Marshall's defense was pretty bad-ass that year too. Were you the Center on that team FWD? Wow, that was a great team.

FromWayDowntown
10-27-2004, 06:07 PM
Using the express-news archives, I found out that Marshall beat Holmes in 1989 (42-26), 1990 (28-17), and 1991 (14-7).

I played tackle in 1989. Priest and our other tailback both went for 200+ in that game (and oddly, while Priest did nothing in the first half, the other went crazy; then when the guy who went crazy was out, Priest went nuts).

We were certainly blessed with 2 really nice tailbacks -- Priest, for obvious reasons, and V.J. Villarreal, who was bigger, faster, and more elusive than Priest. Unfortunately, V.J. blew out a knee as a junior (against Holmes), was rushed back without proper treatment, and was never the same. He had been running low 4.5's and high 4.4's as a sophomore in high school, but never got close to those times again. He would have been great.

We pretty much ran a 3-back, 2 tight end offense and ran the ball between the tackles all night long. My senior year, in the 12 games we played, I think we completed something like 12 passes and accumulated less than 200 yards passing for the season (the only reason we even exceeded 100 was that we had a 60 yard play in one game). We were decidedly a running team that controlled the clock and played some pretty tough defense. If we ever fell behind by much, we were sunk.

There were some really bad-ass defenses back then, too. They took most of the athletes and threw them on the defensive side. Guys like N.D. Kalu, for example. Between '89 and '92, that defense sent players to UT, Nebraska, Rice, SMU, and Tech. There were (I think) 3 or 4 other guys who went to Southwest and a few other undersized guys who ended up playing at smaller colleges.

It was the heyday for Marshall, but we never could really escape Judson's shadow, and things have pretty steadily gone downhill since then.

Louae
11-05-2004, 05:28 PM
if Priest Holmes was running behind the offensive line Emmitt had in Dallas's title years, he would be putting up video game numbers.

I totally disagree. If that were true, any backup would've put up Smith numbers behind that line as it occurs with the current Broncos. But when Smith went down, so did the great run blocking offensive line.

Louae
11-05-2004, 05:30 PM
Holmes is yet another example of talent not developing at Texas.

Holmes was always good, but he never got the chance to play. For some stupid reason Mackovic wanted to play Shon Mitchell (I think that's who it was) over Holmes. What a stupid decision in my opinion.

I'll never forget when he graduated, I was hoping the cowboys would pick him up to back up Emmitt. I thought he would've been a great backup and very productive. But never and I mean never did I think he would be as good as he is today.

samikeyp
11-05-2004, 06:30 PM
I totally disagree. If that were true, any backup would've put up Smith numbers behind that line as it occurs with the current Broncos. But when Smith went down, so did the great run blocking offensive line.

Man I know that is the truth!

Sincerly,
Derrick Lassic.