Islam & Democracy

[BIG IRISH]

Islam is incompatible with democracy, therefore in places in Iraq democracy will never flourish.

Just look at the case of the apostate in Afghanistan who converted to Christianity and who was up for a death sentence.

Then, after all the nations of the earth applied pressure on Hamid Karzai, he got spirited away.

This is the reality under Islam: you take your life in your hands for criticizing the faith. A Muslim is simply not free to wake up in the morning and decide he no longer wants to be a Muslim. Such a change of mind is really punishable by death. So unless Muslims reform this feature of their religion, at a minimum, there is not much hope for Muslim democracy.

Were not tending to talk about all of the deal-breakers that lurk in the mainstream theology of Islam.

Were pretending as though theyre not there, and were invading countries and creating constitutional democracies, apparently in ignorance of the fact that a majority of the people still want their neighbors killed for thought crimes.


Until you change peoples minds on this subject, until you get them to run a different moral calculus, where cartoons cease to be the thing that most animates them, and a genuine compassion for other peoples suffering is the real gold standard of their morality

I dont see how putting the structures of democracy in place will help anyone. You need a civil society before you have a democracy.

[BIG IRISH]

A Question

Why is it, that everywhere in the world where a Muslim population or nation borders a non Muslim area there is war, terror and conflict? Why does Islam have such a damn hard time getting along with its neighbors? Aside from the obvious problems in the Middle East, we've got Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Armenia, India, The Philippines, East Timor, Nigeria, southern Sudan...and I'm sure I've left out a few. All of these areas are regions under Muslim attack. Certainly Muslims aren't the innocent besieged victims in all of these areas as they claim to be in the Middle East.


Bush's recent use of the term Islamic fascists has created quite a stir, but there is ample historic evidence for Islams ties to fascism.


The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, had close ties with the Nazi's in WWII. The Mufti visited Germany in 1941 and was warmly greeted. Linked by their rabid anti-semitism Hitler made a public declaration, saying among other things that the Nazis "recognized and sympathized with the Arab struggles for independence and liberation and that it would support the elimination of a national Jewish homeland. The Mufti was also key to establishing the Bosnia SS Handschar division of Muslims soldiers in the Balkans.
The Mufti was also behind an attempted chemical weapon attack on Tel Aviv water system. He was also behind the Farhud, an attempt at the systematic extermination of the Jews living in Baghdad in 1941.
All of this Muslim hatred of the Jews was long before the establishment of the state of Isreal, the west bank occupation, gaza, Lebanon, or any of the other Muslim excuses for war and violence.



So please, someone enlighten me as to why Islam, as a whole, just can't play well with others???

[Nbadan]

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, had close ties with the Nazi's in WWII. The Mufti visited Germany in 1941 and was warmly greeted. Linked by their rabid anti-semitism Hitler made a public declaration, saying among other things that the Nazis "recognized and sympathized with the Arab struggles for independence and liberation and that it would support the elimination of a national Jewish homeland. The Mufti was also key to establishing the Bosnia SS Handschar division of Muslims soldiers in the Balkans.
The Mufti was also behind an attempted chemical weapon attack on Tel Aviv water system. He was also behind the Farhud, an attempt at the systematic extermination of the Jews living in Baghdad in 1941.
All of this Muslim hatred of the Jews was long before the establishment of the state of Isreal, the west bank occupation, gaza, Lebanon, or any of the other Muslim excuses for war and violence.

(cough) (cough) Prescott Bush (cough) (cough)

[Obstructed_View]

(cough) (cough) Prescott Bush (cough) (cough)
Facts vs. unsubstantiated accusations. You never fail to come up with something stupid.

[E20]

Mostly because that unlike the West where they have chosen seperation from Church and State, most Muslim countries always decide to include Islam in there republic since the Quran is the word and law from God to Muslims which is why I think most Muslims are more devout to there religon than any other practictioner. That doesn't mean they have to always be in war with there neighbors. It's usually like military power hungry leaders, (i.e your Saddams and Adhmendjiads(sp)) that rile everybody up. There a lot of Muslim dominated countires living in peace with it's neighbors.

[BIG IRISH]

..... There a lot of Muslim dominated countires living in peace with it's neighbors.

Name some!

Aside from the obvious problems in the Middle East, we've got Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Armenia, India, The Philippines, East Timor, Nigeria, southern Sudan...and I'm sure I've left out a few.

All of these areas are regions under Muslim attack.

Certainly Muslims aren't the innocent besieged victims in all of these areas as they claim to be in the Middle East.

[Nbadan]

Facts vs. unsubstantiated accusations. You never fail to come up with something stupid.


...new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.

Remarkably, little of Bush's dealings with Germany has received public scrutiny, partly because of the secret status of the documentation involving him. But now the multibillion dollar legal action for damages by two Holocaust survivors against the Bush family, and the imminent publication of three books on the subject are threatening to make Prescott Bush's business history an uncomfortable issue for his grandson, George W, as he seeks re-election.

While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade. The Guardian has seen evidence that shows Bush was the director of the New York-based Union Banking Corporation (UBC) that represented Thyssen's US interests and he continued to work for the bank after America entered the war.

Tantalising

Bush was also on the board of at least one of the companies that formed part of a multinational network of front companies to allow Thyssen to move assets around the world.

Thyssen owned the largest steel and coal company in Germany and grew rich from Hitler's efforts to re-arm between the two world wars. One of the pillars in Thyssen's international corporate web, UBC, worked exclusively for, and was owned by, a Thyssen-controlled bank in the Netherlands. More tantalising are Bush's links to the Consolidated Silesian Steel Company (CSSC), based in mineral rich Silesia on the German-Polish border. During the war, the company made use of Nazi slave labour from the concentration camps, including Auschwitz. The ownership of CSSC changed hands several times in the 1930s, but documents from the US National Archive declassified last year link Bush to CSSC, although it is not clear if he and UBC were still involved in the company when Thyssen's American assets were seized in 1942.

Three sets of archives spell out Prescott Bush's involvement. All three are readily available, thanks to the efficient US archive system and a helpful and dedicated staff at both the Library of Congress in Washington and the National Archives at the University of Maryland.

The first set of files, the Harriman papers in the Library of Congress, show that Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder of a number of companies involved with Thyssen.

The second set of papers, which are in the National Archives, are contained in vesting order number 248 which records the seizure of the company assets. What these files show is that on October 20 1942 the alien property custodian seized the assets of the UBC, of which Prescott Bush was a director. Having gone through the books of the bank, further seizures were made against two affiliates, the Holland-American Trading Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation. By November, the Silesian-American Company, another of Prescott Bush's ventures, had also been seized.

The third set of documents, also at the National Archives, are contained in the files on IG Farben, who was prosecuted for war crimes.

A report issued by the Office of Alien Property Custodian in 1942 stated of the companies that "since 1939, these (steel and mining) properties have been in possession of and have been operated by the German government and have undoubtedly been of considerable assistance to that country's war effort".

GUARDIAN (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html)

Fact versus Fiction Indeed.

[BIG IRISH]

Hey Dan do You think he knows your talking about Prescot Bush?
Who was that envoy to China and how did he Fuck things up, but that is a different story. Maybe the same players. :rolleyes

Why don't you tell him about some of the other Anti-Jewish, Nazi-loving, so-called Great-Americans that gave support to Hitler, :madrun prior to Dec 7, 1945 and blow some peoples minds.

Nah they would not believe your source :lol :lol :lol

[E20]

Dominate Muslim countires that aren't under attack or at war with anybody:

Turkey
Egypt
Indonesia
Pakistan (They don't like India, but they're not bombing anybody)
Afghanistan
Saudi Arabia
Yemen
Nigeria
Morocco
Niger
Algeria

I can list some more, but I'm not.

[Nbadan]

It's not that Democracy and Islam are mutually exclusive, it's that Islam and Western-style Democracy are mutually exclusive. We've got to let the Iraqis and the Afghan form their own governments and make their own mistakes like we did in the U.S., but we learned as they will.

[Obstructed_View]

Hey Dan do You think he knows your talking about Prescot Bush?
Who was that envoy to China and how did he Fuck things up, but that is a different story. Maybe the same players. :rolleyes

Why don't you tell him about some of the other Anti-Jewish, Nazi-loving, so-called Great-Americans that gave support to Hitler, :madrun prior to Dec 7, 1945 and blow some peoples minds.

Nah they would not believe your source :lol :lol :lol
You mean like General Motors and Standard Oil? All of this pales in comparison to one Joe Kennedy, who was actually an anti-semite and was removed as British embassador for meeting with the Germans behind FDR's back and accusing FDR of being under "Jewish influence".

Kennedy, the worst of the examples so far, pales in comparison to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Nbadan's bestest buddy.

By the way, Irish, you are four years too late.

[Obstructed_View]

It's not that Democracy and Islam are mutually exclusive, it's that Islam and Western-style Democracy are mutually exclusive. We've got to let the Iraqis and the Afghan form their own governments and make their own mistakes like we did in the U.S., but we learned as they will.
Wow, you just made a case for not pulling out. Amazing.

[Obstructed_View]

wow you just made a case FOR pulling out. equally amazing :lol sorry couldn't resist
I don't get it, but I don't get a lot of your posts.

[RandomGuy]

Islam is incompatible with democracy

Islam or your perceptions of Islam? :rolleyes

My experience with those who believe as you seem to is that they have never had any meaningful encounters with muslims, i.e. have never really talked to one.

Would that be wrong here?

[RandomGuy]

I don't get it, but I don't get a lot of your posts.

He was making fun of you for a grand pronouncement with no supporting evidence or argument.

It was irony and not the kind that gets wrinkles out of shirts.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, Iran did have a democratically elected government in the 40s and 50s, however imperfect it may have been. We helped put a stop to that bullshit.

[Obstructed_View]

He was making fun of you for a grand pronouncement with no supporting evidence or argument.

It was irony and not the kind that gets wrinkles out of shirts.
Ah. You guys are smart.

[RandomGuy]

Ah. You guys are smart.

aw com'on, ya gotta admit it was a *little* bit clever.

[DarkReign]

Shit, I thought elpimp was talking about his father pulling out, but thats neither here nor there I guess.

[Phenomanul]

Islam and Democracy are mutually exclusive... Women don't really have a voice in Islamic run states... how is that democratic?

[ChumpDumper]

Islam and Democracy are mutually exclusive... Women don't really have a voice in Islamic run states... how is that democratic?You mean like the first 144 years of the United States?

[101A]

You mean like the first 144 years of the United States?

Damn, Heg...you walked into that one.

[Phenomanul]

You mean like the first 144 years of the United States?

Exactly.... it wasn't until the women's suffrage movement successfully amended our Constitution that we were fully democratic....

that and the nullification of the 3/5ths rule...

the civil rights movement... etc...

Democracy heeds the voice of the people.... sometimes it calls for change. But that is the nature of a democratic run state.

[Phenomanul]

Damn, Heg...you walked into that one.


NO... don't think so.

[BIG IRISH]

Exactly.... it wasn't until the women's suffrage movement successfully amended our Constitution that we were fully democratic....

that and the nullification of the 3/5ths rule...

the civil rights movement... etc...

Democracy heeds the voice of the people.... sometimes it calls for change. But that is the nature of a democratic run state.

America is still not democratic.

Ever hear of the electoral college: :depressed
The United States Electoral College is the name of the group of Presidential Electors who are chosen every four years to cast the electoral vote and thereby elect the President and Vice President of the United States.

The "electoral college" was established by Article Two, Section One of the United States Constitution, which provides for a quadrennial election of Presidential Electors in each state.

The electoral process was modified in 1804 with the ratification of the 12th Amendment and again in 1961 with the ratification of the 23rd Amendment, and still sucks.

If we could junk the above than we might be real close to a democracy

[Phenomanul]

America is still not democratic.

Ever hear of the electoral college: :depressed
The United States Electoral College is the name of the group of Presidential Electors who are chosen every four years to cast the electoral vote and thereby elect the President and Vice President of the United States.

The "electoral college" was established by Article Two, Section One of the United States Constitution, which provides for a quadrennial election of Presidential Electors in each state.

The electoral process was modified in 1804 with the ratification of the 12th Amendment and again in 1961 with the ratification of the 23rd Amendment, and still sucks.

If we could junk the above than we might be real close to a democracy

But aren't those electors the senators and congressmen, who in turn were elected by the people?

[boutons_]

but aren't those electors the senators and congressmen"

no. that's what they do in England, where the elected parliamentarians elect the PM.

electoral college electors are not the members of Congress.

In the closely divided and deeply porlarized USA, the electoral college is more like in the future to have popular vote opposite from electoral vote, as it was in 2000 by 600K votes more for Gore.

[ChumpDumper]

Exactly.... it wasn't until the women's suffrage movement successfully amended our Constitution that we were fully democratic....

that and the nullification of the 3/5ths rule...

the civil rights movement... etc...

Democracy heeds the voice of the people.... sometimes it calls for change. But that is the nature of a democratic run state.Again, Iran once had the voice of the people, imperfect as it was -- not too unlike the US was imperfect as we have pointed out. We just didn't like what they were saying -- namely threatening to nationalize their oil industry -- so we helped to stop it. Then the people spoke again twenty years later by overthrowing the Shah and now look what we have.

If Islam is so antithetical to democracy, how do you explain Kuwait since 1962? In the past two years, its elected parliament has given women the vote and actually removed the hereditary Emir during a succession crisis. Pretty extraordinary stuff.

And how about Turkey, that has had multiparty elections since 1945 and women's suffrage since 1929? There has been the occasional miitary coup replacing weak, instable governments, but they have always managed to return to civilian control in time. It took nothing short of a revolution there to remove many of the oppressive aspects of traditional Islamic law, but Turkey's population is still 99% Muslim.

Democracy in Islamic lands is not impossible, but it will be heavily influenced by Islam and won't be exactly what we think it should be, but that's what happens with self-determination. There are definitely huge obstacles to it in a place like Iraq, many caused by its arbitrary borders that have thrown together three groups that may be better off trying to install democracies in three seperate states.

[Phenomanul]

Again, Iran once had the voice of the people, imperfect as it was -- not too unlike the US was imperfect as we have pointed out. We just didn't like what they were saying -- namely threatening to nationalize their oil industry -- so we helped to stop it. Then the people spoke again twenty years later by overthrowing the Shah and now look what we have.

If Islam is so antithetical to democracy, how do you explain Kuwait since 1962? In the past two years, its elected parliament has given women the vote and actually removed the hereditary Emir during a succession crisis. Pretty extraordinary stuff.

And how about Turkey, that has had multiparty elections since 1945 and women's suffrage since 1929? There has been the occasional miitary coup replacing weak, instable governments, but they have always managed to return to civilian control in time. It took nothing short of a revolution there to remove many of the oppressive aspects of traditional Islamic law, but Turkey's population is still 99% Muslim.

Democracy in Islamic lands is not impossible, but it will be heavily influenced by Islam and won't be exactly what we think it should be, but that's what happens with self-determination. There are definitely huge obstacles to it in a place like Iraq, many caused by its arbitrary borders that have thrown together three groups that may be better off trying to install democracies in three seperate states.


But both examples you gave are not countries I would associate with having 'theocratic run' governments. And Iran..... well, let's just say that their government has lost the will of the people. And yet the people can't do anything about it.

[ChumpDumper]

So fundamentalist theocracies can't be democracies.

Wow, that's deep.

What's next? Dogs can't be airplanes?

[Phenomanul]

but aren't those electors the senators and congressmen"

no. that's what they do in England, where the elected parliamentarians elect the PM.

electoral college electors are not the members of Congress.

In the closely divided and deeply porlarized USA, the electoral college is more like in the future to have popular vote opposite from electoral vote, as it was in 2000 by 600K votes more for Gore.


You are right (for once)....

The number of electoral college votes matches the number of elected (congressmen + senators)... but the electoral vote of a state goes directly to the candidate who won the state on the popular vote count.

I can't say the system is without its flaws.

[Phenomanul]

So fundamentalist theocracies can't be democracies.

Wow, that's deep.

What's next? Dogs can't be airplanes?


Now we're on the same page.

[RandomGuy]

America is still not democratic.

Ever hear of the electoral college: :depressed
The United States Electoral College is the name of the group of Presidential Electors who are chosen every four years to cast the electoral vote and thereby elect the President and Vice President of the United States.

The "electoral college" was established by Article Two, Section One of the United States Constitution, which provides for a quadrennial election of Presidential Electors in each state.

The electoral process was modified in 1804 with the ratification of the 12th Amendment and again in 1961 with the ratification of the 23rd Amendment, and still sucks.

If we could junk the above than we might be real close to a democracy

The electoral college is a great idea, as it gives smaller states a bit more voice in the national debate, and keeps seccessionist movements at bay.

[E20]

hegamboa, you sound like there is no other way to run a government besides using a democratic way and more so it sounds like you want to shove down your beliefs onto other people. So far you sound more authoritarian than democratic.

[Phenomanul]

hegamboa, you sound like there is no other way to run a government besides using a democratic way and more so it sounds like you want to shove down your beliefs onto other people. So far you sound more authoritarian than democratic.

I've just expressed my views on some democratic principles.... I've not expressed anything remotely implying how to enforce or establish said ideology... so your assessment of my stance in said light was rather premature and incorrect...

[smeagol]

Dominate Muslim countires that aren't under attack or at war with anybody:

Turkey
Egypt
Indonesia
Pakistan (They don't like India, but they're not bombing anybody)
Afghanistan
Saudi Arabia
Yemen
Nigeria
Morocco
Niger
Algeria

I can list some more, but I'm not.

Turkey is a secular country and their is freedom of religion.

Other countries are surrounded by other Muslim countries, i.e. SA, Yemen

By the way, Pakistan and India don't get along and in Nigeria there are constant problems between Christians and Muslims.

[velik_m]

Turkey is a secular country and their is freedom of religion.

Other countries are surrounded by other Muslim countries, i.e. SA, Yemen

By the way, Pakistan and India don't get along and in Nigeria there are constant problems between Christians and Muslims.

Niger is not Nigeria.

[smeagol]

Niger is not Nigeria.
Huh?

Nigeria has religious problems between Christians and Muslims. I don't know about Niger.

[velik_m]

Huh?

Nigeria has religious problems between Christians and Muslims. I don't know about Niger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger


''Niger'', officially the ''Republic of Niger'', is a landlocked Sub-Saharan country in Western Africa, named after the Niger River. It borders Nigeria and Benin to the south, Burkina Faso and Mali to the west, Algeria and Libya to the north and Chad to the East.

you learn something new everyday.

[E20]

Turkey is a secular country and their is freedom of religion.

Other countries are surrounded by other Muslim countries, i.e. SA, Yemen

By the way, Pakistan and India don't get along and in Nigeria there are constant problems between Christians and Muslims.
I successfully responded to the question by BIG_IRISH if there are any Muslim countries that are not attacking anybody. Well so far I read up and Nigeria does have some Muslim and Christian conflicts, so okay scratch off Nigeria And I already know that Pakistan and India didn't get along that's why I said:

Pakistan (They don't like India, but they're not at war with them)

Also, Pakistan and Afghanistan border China. Yemen borders Eithiopia.
Niger, Algeria, Morroco, Egypt all border countries in Africa that are not predominatly Muslim. Indonesia borders Papa New Guinea.

http://eprentice.sdsu.edu:16080/j023/caputo/favorite%20folder/World-Map-1200.jpg

Also, the land masses are all also seperated by religon as well. Some areas have dominant Christian countries and other countries other religons, which I also think keeps peace around. Starting from the left you have Christianity, Islam/Judasiam, then Hinduism/Buddihism. ALSO:I am not saying that if the United States or Britain/France bordered Yemen they would start to attack them.