And, yet, the appeasing whiners of the world...

[Yonivore]

...wonder from where civilian casualties come (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060907/481/d5fb8724ed254cc48ac7a51cfa898da9).


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060907/capt.d5fb8724ed254cc48ac7a51cfa898da9.aptopix_mide ast_israel_palestinians_jrl132.jpg

A Palestinian militant points his rifle towards Israeli troops as other gunmen and civilians look on during an Israeli army raid in the village of Qabatiya, near the West Bank town of Jenin, Thursday, Sept. 7, 2006. Three Palestinians, including a wanted militant, were killed Thursday when Israeli troops raided the West Bank town, Palestinian hospital officials said. Two unarmed Palestinians were killed in the exchange of fire, and 11 others were injured, the officials said. The Israeli army confirmed that troops were making arrests in Qabatiya and that a shootout had erupted. (AP Photo/Mohammed Ballas)

[George Gervin's Afro]

...wonder from where civilian casualties come (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060907/481/d5fb8724ed254cc48ac7a51cfa898da9).


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060907/capt.d5fb8724ed254cc48ac7a51cfa898da9.aptopix_mide ast_israel_palestinians_jrl132.jpg



well let's just round up 200 million people and kill them..problem solved..

[Yonivore]

well let's just round up 200 million people and kill them..problem solved..
Would it be too much to just recognize that Palestinian and Lebanese "civilians" probably die needlessly because it appears they treat armed conflict as a spectator sport to be engaged in by the entire family instead of, say, like the Israelis who bunker their innocents in bomb shelters?

Just asking.

[johnsmith]

well let's just round up 200 million people and kill them..problem solved..

Agreed, turn the fuckers into glass.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Would it be too much to just recognize that Palestinian and Lebanese "civilians" probably die needlessly because it appears they treat armed conflict as a spectator sport to be engaged in by the entire family instead of, say, like the Israelis who bunker their innocents in bomb shelters?

Just asking.


would it be to mush to recognize that just because people don't support your party's way of fighting this war as not necessarily whining appeasers?

just asking.

[johnsmith]

would it be to mush to recognize that just because people don't support your party's way of fighting this war as not necessarily whining appeasers?

just asking.

Answer the question posed to you.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Answer the question posed to you.


when you answer mine.

[johnsmith]

when you answer mine.

First of all, he asked you first, second, I'm but an innocent bystander in this and just curious to your answer.......as well as his. But again, he asked you first.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Would it be too much to just recognize that Palestinian and Lebanese "civilians" probably die needlessly because it appears they treat armed conflict as a spectator sport to be engaged in by the entire family instead of, say, like the Israelis who bunker their innocents in bomb shelters?


I can recognize that these people are accustomed to settling their differences using violence. Their culture seems to be predicated on violence and the glory of death.

[Crookshanks]

when you answer mine.

Typical liberal response. Whenever they are asked a question, they respond by spouting their talking points or else by asking a question. This just shows that they don't have any real answers!

[George Gervin's Afro]

Typical liberal response. Whenever they are asked a question, they respond by spouting their talking points or else by asking a question. This just shows that they don't have any real answers!


Wow a typical cons repsonse who claims dems use talking points... :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

hey kettle the pot is on the other line..

[Yonivore]

would it be to mush to recognize that just because people don't support your party's way of fighting this war as not necessarily whining appeasers?

just asking.
I'm specifically addressing the whining appeasers that claimed Israel was indiscriminately killing civilians when, as is evidenced by this and other photos from the region, it is probably the fault of said civilians hanging around as spectators when bullets and bombs are being exchanged.

If you're not one of those people why the fuck are you even engaging in this conversation? I think you just feel the need to reflexively disagree with me. I'm flattered.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I'm specifically addressing the whining appeasers that claimed Israel was indiscriminately killing civilians when, as is evidenced by this and other photos from the region, it is probably the fault of said civilians hanging around as spectators when bullets and bombs are being exchanged.

If you're not one of those people why the fuck are you even engaging in this conversation? I think you just feel the need to reflexively disagree with me. I'm flattered.


don't be flattered I just enjoy exposing you for what you are..

[johnsmith]

don't be flattered I just enjoy exposing you for what you are..


And that is?

[George Gervin's Afro]

And that is?


someone who lacks common sense.

[johnsmith]

someone who lacks common sense.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they lack common sense. In fact, judging by the last presedential vote, I'd say that around 51% of Americans seem to agree with the other guy. And I reserve the right to use the 51% thing up until Novembers elections.

[Spurminator]

In fact, judging by the last presedential vote, I'd say that around 51% of Americans seem to agree with the other guy.

Your evidence is short-sighted and out of date.

[johnsmith]

Your evidence is short-sighted and out of date.

Jackass, it was a joke, read the rest of the quote, "I reserve the right to use the 51% thing until the November elections". I see sense of humor and ability to pick up on sarcasm isn't one of your strong suits. :rolleyes :rolleyes

Fuck, RandomGuy might drive me insane, but at least he picks up on when I'm joking or not, you're just an idiot.

[Yonivore]

someone who lacks common sense.
A lack of common sense is characterized by recognizing that civilians who hang around armed conflict are more suseptible to death and injury than those who retreat to shelter and that maybe this played a significant role in the apparent disparity between deaths and injuries of Israeli civilians and the deaths and injuries of their most recent opponent's civilians?

Wow, George Gervin's Afro's world is a lot like opposite world.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they lack common sense. In fact, judging by the last presedential vote, I'd say that around 51% of Americans seem to agree with the other guy. And I reserve the right to use the 51% thing up until Novembers elections.


Well many more people now , and rightfully so, seperate Iraq and the war on terror. Does that mean that you now lack common sense?

[johnsmith]

A lack of common sense is characterized by recognizing that civilians who hang around armed conflict are more suseptible to death and injury than those who retreat to shelter and that maybe this played a significant role in the apparent disparity between deaths and injuries of Israeli civilians and the deaths and injuries of their most recent opponent's civilians?

Wow, George Gervin's Afro's world is a lot like opposite world.


I love opposite world, up is down, down is up. Good stuff.

[johnsmith]

Well many more people now , and rightfully so, seperate Iraq and the war on terror. Does that mean that you now lack common sense?


Again, it was a joke. Clearly the count is no longer 51%.

[George Gervin's Afro]

A lack of common sense is characterized by recognizing that civilians who hang around armed conflict are more suseptible to death and injury than those who retreat to shelter and that maybe this played a significant role in the apparent disparity between deaths and injuries of Israeli civilians and the deaths and injuries of their most recent opponent's civilians?

Wow, George Gervin's Afro's world is a lot like opposite world.


I'm still trying to reconcile your title of this thread to your actual post. After reviewing both I came to the conclusion they do not correllate to eachother in anyway. I believe Yoni lacks common sense and is blinded by his political sun glasses.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I love opposite world, up is down, down is up. Good stuff.


Yeah I agree Republicans still believe Iraq is a part of the war on terror.. up down, left right..!

[Spurminator]

My mistake... I have trouble recognizing jokes when they're not funny, especially when they're so unfunny that they don't even resemble an attempt at being funny.

I'll try to do better in the future.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Jackass, it was a joke, read the rest of the quote, "I reserve the right to use the 51% thing until the November elections". I see sense of humor and ability to pick up on sarcasm isn't one of your strong suits. :rolleyes :rolleyes

Fuck, RandomGuy might drive me insane, but at least he picks up on when I'm joking or not, you're just an idiot.


I agree for once!! :lol

[johnsmith]

I'm still trying to reconcile your title of this thread to your actual post. After reviewing both I came to the conclusion they do not correllate to eachother in anyway. I believe Yoni lacks common sense and is blinded by his political sun glasses.

Personally, I think anyone that sides with either the left or the right are blinded by political sun glasses. That's just me though.

[johnsmith]

My mistake... I have trouble recognizing jokes when they're not funny, especially when they're so unfunny that they don't even resemble an attempt at being funny.

I'll try to do better in the future.

I know, you're so sophisticated that humor is just ridiculous to you. That is why you have such a clever name like the "spurminator" :lol

[Yonivore]

I'm still trying to reconcile your title of this thread to your actual post. After reviewing both I came to the conclusion they do not correllate to eachother in anyway. I believe Yoni lacks common sense and is blinded by his political sun glasses.
You don't consider all the hand-wringing and condemnations of Israel over the deaths of Lebanese and Palestinian civilians to be product of appeasing whiners that just wanted Israel to roll-over and give Hezbollah and Hamas whatever they wanted -- just so the civilians deaths would stop?

I think a person with any common sense at all would say, "Damn! they let their kids hang out with people shooting at the IDF? No freakin' wonder so many of them are dead."

Oh, that's right, opposite world. Got it.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Personally, I think anyone that sides with either the left or the right are blinded by political sun glasses. That's just me though.


Believe me I don't subscribe to all of the Democrats actions or words. I am someone who can at least review the options in front of me and decide for myslef what is right and wrong. Now if you ask me John Kerry was a horrible candidate and I had to hold my nose voting for him but he was far better than Bush in my eyes.

[Yonivore]

Believe me...
Why?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Why?


Why? Because I don't have to scour blogs to refute someone's point. There are things in today's political climate that are very simple to see what is going on irregardless of what people say. I don't care if you believe me because I am not a hypocrite nor a kool aid drinking democrat.

[Spurminator]

I know, you're so sophisticated that humor is just ridiculous to you. That is why you have such a clever name like the "spurminator"

Actually, I'm so sophisticated that my humor is on a completely different plane. Thus, it's difficult for me to backtrack and recognize lower levels of humor... Kind of like a 25 year old watching Teletubbies.

For example, "Spurminator" to you might appear to be a lazily-executed alias derived by combining my favorite basketball team with a film character.

However, there are several other layers to it, beyond even the obvious possible sexual connotations. I couldn't possibly explain it in writing. You'll just have to trust me.

[johnsmith]

Actually, I'm so sophisticated that my humor is on a completely different plane. Thus, it's difficult for me to backtrack and recognize lower levels of humor... Kind of like a 25 year old watching Teletubbies.

For example, "Spurminator" to you might appear to be a lazily-executed alias derived by combining my favorite basketball team with a film character.

However, there are several other layers to it, beyond even the obvious possible sexual connotations. I couldn't possibly explain it in writing. You'll just have to trust me.

I can't deny it, that was a good response. :lol

[George Gervin's Afro]

Actually, I'm so sophisticated that my humor is on a completely different plane. Thus, it's difficult for me to backtrack and recognize lower levels of humor... Kind of like a 25 year old watching Teletubbies.

For example, "Spurminator" to you might appear to be a lazily-executed alias derived by combining my favorite basketball team with a film character.

However, there are several other layers to it, beyond even the obvious possible sexual connotations. I couldn't possibly explain it in writing. You'll just have to trust me.


are you the sponge?

[Yonivore]

Why? Because I don't have to scour blogs to refute someone's point.
What do you scour to refute someone's point? That you think relying on your own point of view rather than that of one (or, in many cases, more) people who actually spend their lives informing themselves on particular issues makes you more believable is rather amusing.


There are things in today's political climate that are very simple to see what is going on irregardless of what people say. I don't care if you believe me because I am not a hypocrite nor a kool aid drinking democrat.
Well, if you don't care, why implore us to believe you -- kool aid drinker?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

...wonder from where civilian casualties come (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060907/481/d5fb8724ed254cc48ac7a51cfa898da9).


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060907/capt.d5fb8724ed254cc48ac7a51cfa898da9.aptopix_mide ast_israel_palestinians_jrl132.jpg

I find it hilarious how you can find that photo conclusive. If I was watching that picture without the text you would think that was just target practice, the children and the rest are just staring and don't seem worried at all. Plus we all know how reliable the press is... oh but wait, this one supports your point of view so it must be legit right? I don't see how you are any better than NBADan when it comes to pimping your political views

[johnsmith]

I find it hilarious how you can find that photo conclusive. If I was watching that picture without the text you would think that was just target practice, the children and the rest are just staring and don't seem worried at all. Plus we all know how reliable the press is... oh but wait, this one supports your point of view so it must be legit right? I don't see how you are any better than NBADan when it comes to pimping your political views


That's not really fair, we let croutons come on here every day with articles that only pimp his political views and everyone lets that fly.

[George Gervin's Afro]

What do you scour to refute someone's point? That you think relying on your own point of view rather than that of one (or, in many cases, more) people who actually spend their lives informing themselves on particular issues makes you more believable is rather amusing.


Well, if you don't care, why implore us to believe you -- kool aid drinker?


It's called common sense! Jesus your not as smart as I gave you credit for..

[Yonivore]

It's called common sense! Jesus your not as smart as I gave you credit for..
Okay, got it.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Okay, got it.


I guess I could scour for liberal blogs to make my point. would that make more informed? or would that make me intellectually dishonest for only looking for the liberal point of view?

[Yonivore]

I guess I could scour for liberal blogs to make my point. would that make more informed? or would tha make intellectually dishonest for only looking for the liberal point of view?
What makes you think I only look at the conservative point of view or, that it is the patently partisan conservative blogs from which I form an opinion?

I would quote from liberal blogs more but, like you, they base their rhetoric on what they, themselves, believe to be true and not on any linked source material.

If you look back, you'll find that most of my posts linked to the source material on which the opinions are drawn. I rarely -- if ever -- see that at the Huffington Post, Daily Kos, or Democratic Underground.

My most frequently used blogs for posting in here are Powerline, Belmont Club, Thomas Jocelyn, and Volokh Conspiracy -- none of whom could be characterized as rabid conservatives and all of whom could be characterized as thoughtful and objective.

I'd match them and their opinions of current events against your brain's conception of "common sense" any day of the week.

[MannyIsGod]

Manumania, Yoni will respond to your points when he gets to the appropriate blog.

[Yonivore]

Manumania, Yoni will respond to your points when he gets to the appropriate blog.
Hey, just as the blogosphere set about debunking the myths created by media in their photojournalism of the conflict when it pointed to Israeli atrocities, I would expect nothing less from them now.

If it is a fabricated photo, let's see the evidence.

Maybe Daily Kos, or Huffington Post, or any one of a number of reputable ::cough cough:: liberal blogs will tackle this issue.

That does lead me to a question. Just what are the reputable Liberal Blogs? Seriously, I'd like to read from some that the liberals, in this forum, believe are the most objective, fair, and honest.

[ObiwanGinobili]

2 weeks ago no one was using the word 'appeasers'. Now it's the new Rove-approved playground insult.

It's the 'flip-floper' for 2006.

[Yonivore]

2 weeks ago no one was using the word 'appeasers'. Now it's the new Rove-approved playground insult.

It's the 'flip-floper' for 2006.
You prefer terrorist sympathizer? Collaborator?

[MannyIsGod]

2 weeks ago no one was using the word 'appeasers'. Now it's the new Rove-approved playground insult.

It's the 'flip-floper' for 2006.Thats so right on.

[Yonivore]

Thats so right on.
Well, you know, as conversations evolve new images are evoked.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, you know, as conversations evolve new images are evoked.AKA You repeat what you hear the mouthpieces say. The new buzzwords are great. OMG they're appeasers!

Whether or not there are true historical lines to be drawn between the 2 situations is irrelevant becauses your leaders have uttered the words and it is now your duty to repeat them.

Its regurgitation and repetition. What else is to be expected from a plagerist?

You're a parrot.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, and blog entries are not conversations. Nor are speeches. Its rhetoric. So yes, as rhetoric is repeated new images are evoked...I guess?

[MannyIsGod]

And as for the reason for large volume of civilian deaths, stop trying to lay blame in places it doesn't belong based on one picture. Thats ridiculousness.

In Israeli eyes, the value of the life of an Israeli solider far exceeds the value of a Lebanese civilian. Thats why they die. Its easier to send in a missle to kill a terrorist in an apartment building where you know there will be civilian deaths than to risk sending in troops to avoid some civilian casualties.

But yes, I'm sure the logical explanation is because every militiaman has a personal possee of admirers.

[Yonivore]

And as for the reason for large volume of civilian deaths, stop trying to lay blame in places it doesn't belong based on one picture. Thats ridiculousness.
So, the Palestinians and Lebanese have a civil defense and shelter system?


In Israeli eyes, the value of the life of an Israeli solider far exceeds the value of a Lebanese civilian. Thats why they die.
That's your opinion. Not supported by any facts, just rhetoric.


Its easier to send in a missle to kill a terrorist in an apartment building where you know there will be civilian deaths than to risk sending in troops to avoid some civilian casualties.
Yep. And, when rockets are being launched from that apartment building, a good distance from any ground troops able to attack, it is more expedient as well.

When's the last time you heard of the IDF launching military assets from civilian populations? And, if they did, would you condemn the Palestinians or Hezbollah for launching rockets into their civilian populations in an attempt to take out a military target? Oh wait, you don't even condemn it when they indiscriminately launch rockets into civilian populations of Israel where there are no military assets. Silly me.


But yes, I'm sure the logical explanation is because every militiaman has a personal possee of admirers.
I don't know, what is the logical explanation beyond - the AP is lying. Which, I concede could be the case.

[MannyIsGod]

So, the Palestinians and Lebanese have a civil defense and shelter system?


That's your opinion. Not supported by any facts, just rhetoric.


Yep. And, when rockets are being launched from that apartment building, a good distance from any ground troops able to attack, it is more expedient as well.

When's the last time you heard of the IDF launching military assets from civilian populations? And, if they did, would you condemn the Palestinians or Hezbollah for launching rockets into their civilian populations in an attempt to take out a military target? Oh wait, you don't even condemn it when they indiscriminately launch rockets into civilian populations of Israel where there are no military assets. Silly me.


I don't know, what is the logical explanation beyond - the AP is lying. Which, I concede could be the case.
Are you challenging my statement that Israeli's view the life of their soldiers as more valuable than those of Lebanese and Palestinian civilians?

Sure, launching attacks on rockets coming from apartment buildings is something you love to toss around. Unfortunetly Israel's military goes after suspected terrorist leaders in apartment buildings in the same manner when there is no imminent threat from that location.

As for the AP lying, it is irrelevant because you cannot draw conclusions from one picture. You love to grab onto a sensationalist item like this and spin it to the max. Oh look look look!!!! Only idiots draw conclusions from such a narrow source.

[mookie2001]

Typical liberal responsevery untypical conservative response

[smeagol]

Its easier to send in a missle to kill a terrorist in an apartment building where you know there will be civilian deaths than to risk sending in troops to avoid some civilian casualties.
Well, at least they launch missiles to try to kill terrorists. Which military target do suicide bombers try to go after when they blow themselves up in a market place?

[mookie2001]

youre right governments are better than suicide bombers

[Hook Dem]

Well, at least they launch missiles to try to kill terrorists. Which military target do suicide bombers try to go after when they blow themselves up in a market place?
Damn good question!

[MannyIsGod]

Well, at least they launch missiles to try to kill terrorists. Which military target do suicide bombers try to go after when they blow themselves up in a market place?Thats such a fucking non sequitor. I'm not arguing for terrorists, I'm arguing against Israel's actions. They are not the same argument. It is possible for for BOTH to be wrong.

I'm so damn sick of people busting out the "AT LEAST" card. Stick to the argument at hand and don't use diversionary tactics.

I really doubt dead people are all the concerned with "AT LEAST" arguements.

[smeagol]

Thats such a fucking non sequitor. I'm not arguing for terrorists, I'm arguing against Israel's actions. They are not the same argument. It is possible for for BOTH to be wrong.

I'm so damn sick of people busting out the "AT LEAST" card. Stick to the argument at hand and don't use diversionary tactics.

I really doubt dead people are all the concerned with "AT LEAST" arguements.
No need to blow a gasquet. I asked a simple question.

In any case, I believe my question is related to the argument at hand because Israel is at war with the terrorists. Israel's attacks usually come in response to a terrorist attack or a missile being shot at Israeli civilians. Unfortunately, these are the methods Israel has to use to stop people who are maniacs.

In other words, no suicide attacks, no Israel bombing buidings where terrorists hide (and killing civilians), trying to kill those terrorists so they are unable to commit yet another suicide attack. It's that simple.

I believe, placed in the situation Israel is in, any government in the world would react very similarly. I have no doubt, if people were being blown to pieces in the streets of Manhattan by suicide bombers, and the US had a vague idea in which cities of the Middle East (or wherever else in the World) the perpetrators of those acts were hidding, those cities, and all its civilians, would be blown into oblivion in a nano-second.

[MannyIsGod]

I believe, placed in the situation Israel is in, any government in the world would react very similarly. I have no doubt, if people were being blown to pieces in the streets of Manhattan by suicide bombers, and the US had a vague idea in which cities of the Middle East (or wherever else in the World) the perpetrators of those acts were hidding, those cities, and all its civilians, would be blown into oblivion in a nano-second. Thats a total crock of shit. Take a look at Afghanistan and Iraq. Our military doesn't operate that way.

Isreal is also occuping lands that aren't theirs. People under occupation will find someway to fight back. Do not be suprised if desprate people seek desprate measures.

The point stands that Isreal bombs apartment buildings to get a single person without regard to who else is in there.

I will admit this, if the US found out Osama Bin Laden was in an apartment building somewhere in the world and we had the ability to drop a bomb on that building we woudlnt' give a rats ass who was in there. But Isreal doesn't do this for people of Osama's status, they do this for people who bring Osam his coffee.

[Ya Vez]

if someone is firing missles from my apartment building .. I sure as hell ain't sticking around to see what the response is going to be....

[Yonivore]

if someone is firing missles from my apartment building .. I sure as hell ain't sticking around to see what the response is going to be....
You're obviously not Palestinian or Lebanese then.

[smeagol]

Thats a total crock of shit. Take a look at Afghanistan and Iraq. Our military doesn't operate that way.

You're kidding, right?

Explain to me how all those Afghani and Iraqui civilians died?

I remember vivid images on my TV, in the early stages of the Iraqui invasion, of civilians bieng killed by American bombs.

Nevertheless, your analogy is far from perfect.

Imagin terrorists blowing up themselves in streets and markets San Diego, or San Antonio for that matter, and hiding in Tijuana or Laredo or someplace in Mexico to plan the next attack. Now imagin this goes on for years and years.

That's a better analogy than what you bring to the table.


Isreal is also occuping lands that aren't theirs.

Many countries occupy land that is not theirs. And who's land it is is up for discussion. It's certainlky not you who has the monopoly of the truth in this matter.


People under occupation will find someway to fight back. Do not be suprised if desprate people seek desprate measures.

Ok, so suicide bombings is somewhat justified then?


The point stands that Isreal bombs apartment buildings to get a single person without regard to who else is in there.

The point is Israel tries to defend itself from the next terrorist attack. As I said before, stop the terrorist bombings and Israels attacks will stop almost immediately.


I will admit this, if the US found out Osama Bin Laden was in an apartment building somewhere in the world and we had the ability to drop a bomb on that building we woudlnt' give a rats ass who was in there. But Isreal doesn't do this for people of Osama's status, they do this for people who bring Osam his coffee.

As I said before, America did not target civilians on purposes, but what is going on in Iraq is a war, just like what goes on in Gaza. Americans, as well as Israelis, kill civilians (isn't it called collateral damage in military lingo?). Don't kid yourself.

[Clandestino]

whatever.. those little terrorist fuckers are going to be the next crop of adult terrorists anyway... kill them while they are young and before they turn 16 and blow up a whole marketplace...

[MannyIsGod]

You're kidding, right?

Explain to me how all those Afghani and Iraqui civilians died?

I remember vivid images on my TV, in the early stages of the Iraqui invasion, of civilians bieng killed by American bombs.

Nevertheless, your analogy is far from perfect.

Imagin terrorists blowing up themselves in streets and markets San Diego, or San Antonio for that matter, and hiding in Tijuana or Laredo or someplace in Mexico to plan the next attack. Now imagin this goes on for years and years.

That's a better analogy than what you bring to the table.



Many countries occupy land that is not theirs. And who's land it is is up for discussion. It's certainlky not you who has the monopoly of the truth in this matter.



Ok, so suicide bombings is somewhat justified then?



The point is Israel tries to defend itself from the next terrorist attack. As I said before, stop the terrorist bombings and Israels attacks will stop almost immediately.



As I said before, America did not target civilians on purposes, but what is going on in Iraq is a war, just like what goes on in Gaza. Americans, as well as Israelis, kill civilians (isn't it called collateral damage in military lingo?). Don't kid yourself.No one in the world disuputes that Israel is taking part in an illegal occupation, not even our government, yet you are?

You justify Isreal's actions but not the Palestinians?


You have no clue as to American military tactics if you think we do the same thing Isreali's do. Like I said before, your statement is a crock of shit.

Oh, and if you want to go down the "if there were no ... there would be no .." route then realize that if there were no Isreali occupation there would be no suicide bombing. I know, this is where you go into your rhetoric about how they want to drive the Jews into the sea.

[ChumpDumper]

I believe, placed in the situation Israel is in, any government in the world would react very similarly. I have no doubt, if people were being blown to pieces in the streets of Manhattan by suicide bombers, and the US had a vague idea in which cities of the Middle East (or wherever else in the World) the perpetrators of those acts were hidding, those cities, and all its civilians, would be blown into oblivion in a nano-second.Our invasions of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan after 9/11 support this argument.

[smeagol]

You justify Isreal's actions but not the Palestinians?

I can't believe you equate a suicide bombing which deliverataly targets innocent civilians, including woman an children, and missiles trying to kill those same terrorists.



You have no clue as to American military tactics if you think we do the same thing Isreali's do

Sure Manny, I don't and you do. My eyes were decieving me back in 2002 and 2003 when the US was bombing the shit out of Afghanistan and Iraq and all those civilians were getting killed.


Like I said before, your statement is a crock of shit.

No it is not. By many accounts thousands of civilians died in Afghanistan and Iraq, all of them killed by American bombings, but this is somehow different than what Israel does. Right.


Oh, and if you want to go down the "if there were no ... there would be no .." route then realize that if there were no Isreali occupation there would be no suicide bombing. I know, this is where you go into your rhetoric about how they want to drive the Jews into the sea.

Isreal's occupation of what? Of Gaza and the West Bank? There is a reason why they are there. In any case, they offered a plan to withdraw from there, and Arafat reject it. Remember? which is a good segway to your point: "Radicals want to draw the Jews into the sea". Do you deny this?

[smeagol]

Our invasions of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan after 9/11 support this argument.
Bombing Afghanistan back to the stone age, where the real perpetrators of 9/11 were hidding, supports my argument.

As usual, your one liner makes little sense.

[MannyIsGod]

We didn't bomb Afghanistan back to the stone age numb nuts. You know who attacked Kabul? The Nothern Alliance. Afghanistan natives themselves. Not the United States Military. We bombed the hell out of the mountains but we did very little bombing within cities. We actually sent in troops or let the NA do the fighting.

Same thing in Iraq. We plastered the hell out of military targets but we didn't go after every apartment building that might house a republican guard soldier or a member of Sadaams government.

You can say what you want about our entry into the Iraq war, but to say anything about the restraint and rules of engagement of the US military is simple ignorance. The United States could sit back and bomb the fuck out of the world if we wanted to, but there are many times where they send in troops on the ground to avoid collateral damage.

Arafat was stupid to reject the deal, but that was 10 years ago. He offered to accept it later, but Isreal refused. You should read on the history of those talks and just how well the blame is spread around. There is plenty of it to be had by every party. I dont' dillude myself that either side is anything but a stubborn group of idiots who's hatred drive them to do horrible things. But don't try to paint the Isrealis as angels. Thats a load of shit.

[smeagol]

We didn't bomb Afghanistan back to the stone age numb nuts.

I don't think I have insulted you once in this thread, but whatever.


You know who attacked Kabul? The Nothern Alliance. Afghanistan natives themselves. Not the United States Military. We bombed the hell out of the mountains but we did very little bombing within cities. We actually sent in troops or let the NA do the fighting.

Same thing in Iraq. We plastered the hell out of military targets but we didn't go after every apartment building that might house a republican guard soldier or a member of Sadaams government.

You can say what you want about our entry into the Iraq war, but to say anything about the restraint and rules of engagement of the US military is simple ignorance. The United States could sit back and bomb the fuck out of the world if we wanted to, but there are many times where they send in troops on the ground to avoid collateral damage.

OK, you've convinced me. No civilians were killed by US bombings in Afghanistan and Iraq :rolleyes

In any case, as I said in a prior post. What Israel has to live with, the suicide bombings, is something not many countries have to live with. The Iraq war analogy is not a good one.

If the US were attacked in this way by radical Mexicans, adn these Mexicans would go and hide in appartment buildings full of civilians, those civilians would die together with the terrorists by a US bombing. Do you agree with this or not?

[smeagol]

But don't try to paint the Isrealis as angels. Thats a load of shit.
They are not angels. I never said they were. But they are better than the other side, that's for sure.

Same as the Russian government is better than the Chechnyan terrorists or the Spanish governemnt is better than ETA. I have no sympathy for terrorists. I'm not sure about you.

I have seen terrorists much closer than you have. The only good terrorist is the one that is dead.

[smeagol]

You seem to believe Israel should take it up the ass every time a terrorist blows himself up in a market or a bus stop, killing dozens of Israelis. I believe it's their right to retaliate.

[ChumpDumper]

Bombing Afghanistan back to the stone age, where the real perpetrators of 9/11 were hidding, supports my argument.

As usual, your one liner makes little sense.:lol

Where were the perpetrators from?

Where did the ones hiding in Afghanistan go after that country was invaded?

Sorry to make you think about it.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't think I have insulted you once in this thread, but whatever.



OK, you've convinced me. No civilians were killed by US bombings in Afghanistan and Iraq :rolleyes

In any case, as I said in a prior post. What Israel has to live with, the suicide bombings, is something not many countries have to live with. The Iraq war analogy is not a good one.

If the US were attacked in this way by radical Mexicans, adn these Mexicans would go and hide in appartment buildings full of civilians, those civilians would die together with the terrorists by a US bombing. Do you agree with this or not?I absolutely disagree that Mexican civillians would die in that manner. I never said no civillians died in Iraq or Afghanistan, I said that the Israeli military takes far fewer considerations as far as collateral damage is concerned. If you're going to try to disprove my arguments make sure you get them right.

[MannyIsGod]

They are not angels. I never said they were. But they are better than the other side, that's for sure.

Same as the Russian government is better than the Chechnyan terrorists or the Spanish governemnt is better than ETA. I have no sympathy for terrorists. I'm not sure about you.

I have seen terrorists much closer than you have. The only good terrorist is the one that is dead.Thats great. When people stop trying to control other people then perhaps terrorists will cease to exsist. 50 years ago, violence against Isreal was due to religous ideology. Today it stems - as does much of the other terrorism in the world - to occupations and people fighting for independence. They use shitty methods, but they use them because they work in the long run.

I know its really great to have catch phrases like the only terrorist is a good one, but if you think you can kill every terrorist in the world or if you think this is a fight that will be won with killing then I'll talk to you 50 years from now when people may finally realize that you never end movements like this by killing. Never.

[smeagol]

Where were the perpetrators from?

How is from what country their were originally from relevant, Einstein?

They were AQ and AQ was hidding in Afghanistan, not Saudi Arabia. Therefore, the US invaded Afghanistan.


Where did the ones hiding in Afghanistan go after that country was invaded?

I'm confused. Aren't you the one who claims the US should go after Osama?

In any case, the US got lazy because they should be looking in the mountains of Pakistan, still hunting for OBL, not monkeying around in Iraq.


Sorry to make you think about it.

Don't worry about me. In any case, you did not make me think that hard.

But as I said before, the US-Afghanistan/Iraq analogy is a poor one. Those are more convensional wars, what Israel has to go throuigh is not a convensional war.

[Clandestino]

Thats great. When people stop trying to control other people then perhaps terrorists will cease to exsist. 50 years ago, violence against Isreal was due to religous ideology. Today it stems - as does much of the other terrorism in the world - to occupations and people fighting for independence. They use shitty methods, but they use them because they work in the long run.

I know its really great to have catch phrases like the only terrorist is a good one, but if you think you can kill every terrorist in the world or if you think this is a fight that will be won with killing then I'll talk to you 50 years from now when people may finally realize that you never end movements like this by killing. Never.

terrorists are like cockroaches... they will always be around, but that doesn't mean you don't kill one if you see it.

[jochhejaam]

We didn't bomb Afghanistan back to the stone age numb nuts.


I don't think I have insulted you once in this thread, but whatever.


Other than those "appropiate posters Manny has credibility with" that he recently spoke of, I think most posters interpret his churlish remark as reflecting on him and not his intended target.

[cherylsteele]

...wonder from where civilian casualties come (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060907/481/d5fb8724ed254cc48ac7a51cfa898da9).


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060907/capt.d5fb8724ed254cc48ac7a51cfa898da9.aptopix_mide ast_israel_palestinians_jrl132.jpg

These people remind me of those rubber-neckers on freeway that just have to stop and see what is going on at every little accident and then they cause even more when they create traffic flow problems.

[Ya Vez]

I thought we bombed afghanastan back up to the stone age....

[Clandestino]

Other than those "appropiate posters Manny has credibility with" that he recently spoke of, I think most posters interpret his churlish remark as reflecting on him and not his intended target.

manny is always right... :lol

[Clandestino]

These people remind me of those rubber-neckers on freeway that just have to stop and see what is going on at every little accident and then they cause even more when they create traffic flow problems.


i am suprised he doesn't have the kids in front of him for protection.. that is probably the next picture that we are not seeing

[smeagol]

Other than those "appropiate posters Manny has credibility with" that he recently spoke of, I think most posters interpret his churlish remark as reflecting on him and not his intended target.
Call me crazy but despite his insults, I'm actually fond of Manny :lol

[smeagol]

Thats great. When people stop trying to control other people then perhaps terrorists will cease to exsist.

Terrorists methods are never justified. I would like to see what you think if California ever wants to be independant from the rest of the US using terrorist methods. That's what ETA does with regards to the Basque territories. What I'm trying to say is that it not only about control the way you have implied it.



50 years ago, violence against Isreal was due to religous ideology. Today it stems - as does much of the other terrorism in the world - to occupations and people fighting for independence. They use shitty methods, but they use them because they work in the long run.

What's your solution? Mine is to seperate Israelis and Palestinians, given that they cannot get along. Separate them all together.


I know its really great to have catch phrases like the only terrorist is a good one, but if you think you can kill every terrorist in the world or if you think this is a fight that will be won with killing then I'll talk to you 50 years from now when people may finally realize that you never end movements like this by killing. Never.

Tell this to Bush.

[ChumpDumper]

How is from what country their were originally from relevant, Einstein?There's more where they came from, Einstein. And they are getting money from those countries as well, Einstein.
They were AQ and AQ was hidding in Afghanistan, not Saudi Arabia. Therefore, the US invaded Afghanistan.And where are they now?
I'm confused. Aren't you the one who claims the US should go after Osama?And where is he now? Iraq?
In any case, the US got lazy because they should be looking in the mountains of Pakistan, still hunting for OBL, not monkeying around in Iraq.Thanks for pretending my point is yours.
Don't worry about me. In any case, you did not make me think that hard.Since you didn't know you agreed with me, you definitely didn't think that much.

[Yonivore]

I absolutely disagree that Mexican civillians would die in that manner. I never said no civillians died in Iraq or Afghanistan, I said that the Israeli military takes far fewer considerations as far as collateral damage is concerned. If you're going to try to disprove my arguments make sure you get them right.
Well gee, Manny, how freakin' easy do the Palestinians and Hezbollah make it for Israel to avoid collateral damage?

Seriously, they hold planning session, build their bombs, have their meetings, cache their weapons, and execute their attacks from among innocent Palestinian and Lebanese civilian populations.

If they'd establish typical military installations and conduct their military activities in a more conventional manner, their enemies wouldn't be forced into such tough decisions. Maybe it only looks like the IDF is less considerate of these facts because they've been fighting these types of pathetic imbeciles for a lot longer than most other countries.

[Yonivore]

Thats great. When people stop trying to control other people then perhaps terrorists will cease to exsist. 50 years ago, violence against Isreal was due to religous ideology. Today it stems - as does much of the other terrorism in the world - to occupations and people fighting for independence. They use shitty methods, but they use them because they work in the long run.

I know its really great to have catch phrases like the only terrorist is a good one, but if you think you can kill every terrorist in the world or if you think this is a fight that will be won with killing then I'll talk to you 50 years from now when people may finally realize that you never end movements like this by killing. Never.
Exactly which sovereign Hezbollah land is Israel occupying?

[MannyIsGod]

Isreal occupies Lebanese soil know was Shebaa Farms in the Golan.

[smeagol]

Isreal occupies Lebanese soil know was Shebaa Farms in the Golan.
Where should Israelis live then?

[smeagol]

There's more where they came from, Einstein. And they are getting money from those countries as well, Einstein.

AQ was organized in Afghanistan and that's were the US (rightly) went to fight the war against terrorism.

The fact that the 9/11 terorists were from Saudi Arabia is irrelevant (which is one of the points you made, which makes little sense). They were trained by AQ who, to the best of our knowledge, was and is located in Afghanistan.

With your same logic, given that that Reid fellow was a British citizen, the US should bomb the shit out of England.


Thanks for pretending my point is yours.

I don't know what your point is. It seems to be that because the 9/11 terrorists were from SA, we should attack that country. Obviously a stupid idea and certainly not what I said.


Since you didn't know you agreed with me, you definitely didn't think that much.

I probably agree with you that the war with Iraq was innecesary. There are many other things I do not agree with you.

[ChumpDumper]

AQ was organized in Afghanistan and that's were the US (rightly) went to fight the war against terrorism.No argument there.
The fact that the 9/11 terorists were from Saudi Arabia is irrelevantHardly.
I don't know what your point is. Think harder.
I probably agree with you that the war with Iraq was innecesary. There are many other things I do not agree with you.Amen.

[MannyIsGod]

Where should Israelis live then?Isreal. The settlements are entirely illegal although I'm not even sure there are any in that part of the Golan.

[gtownspur]

Isreal. The settlements are entirely illegal although I'm not even sure there are any in that part of the Golan.


Well manny, when Palestinians, or any other arab group break a peace pact by escalating Israeli deaths, then the land that was given for peace is up for the taking, since the aggressors did not live up to their end of the deal.

I mean that's how pacts/treaties/contracts go. Both parties have to live up to their word. So in that essence, Israel is doing nothing illegal.

[smeagol]

No argument there.

Hardly.

Think harder.

Amen.

Explain to me what your point is Chump (in more than one line, please) because I have thought hard and I don't see it.

You are against the war in Iraq but you sponsor a war against Saudi Arabia because that's where most of the 9/11 terrorists come from?

By the way, OBL is also from SA (another reason to attack that kingdom, tright?)

[smeagol]

Isreal. The settlements are entirely illegal although I'm not even sure there are any in that part of the Golan.
Weren't Israel moving out of those "illegal" settlements some months ago and bulldozing them down?

[smeagol]

Amen.
Funny that you would use a religious word to note our differences, given that politically we probably agree in many respects.

[Gerryatrics]

Isreal occupies Lebanese soil know was Shebaa Farms in the Golan.

Gasp! Oh no, how can those poor Lebanese people live with Israel occupying nearly 10 square miles of mostly worthless land? That just happens to offer the perfect position for launching rockets and shelling Israeli villages. Land that belonged to Syria, not Lebanon, until someone figured it could score a few more anti-Israel points if they said it was stolen Lebanese land.

[MannyIsGod]

Gasp! Oh no, how can those poor Lebanese people live with Israel occupying nearly 10 square miles of mostly worthless land? That just happens to offer the perfect position for launching rockets and shelling Israeli villages. Land that belonged to Syria, not Lebanon, until someone figured it could score a few more anti-Israel points if they said it was stolen Lebanese land.Well, I hope the tactical advantadge gained by the land is worth the strategic, diplomatic, and political disadvantadges it places it at. And Syria has said long ago the land belonged to Lebanon.

Oh, and when people are willing to fight over it so much and die for it, I really doubt you can term it worthless.

[MannyIsGod]

Weren't Israel moving out of those "illegal" settlements some months ago and bulldozing them down?Sure, in Gaza. Too bad they continuing building them in the West Bank.

[ChumpDumper]

Funny that you would use a religious word to note our differences, given that politically we probably agree in many respects.Well, alot of the stuff discussed in here is axiomatic anyway, and no one seems like he would actually change any of the beliefs they bring to the table in the first place. I'd be a little worried if I agreed with everything any one poster had to say. The best I or anyone else could do is try to be more respectful. Fat chance, I know.

[ChumpDumper]

Explain to me what your point is Chump (in more than one line, please) because I have thought hard and I don't see it.

You are against the war in Iraq but you sponsor a war against Saudi Arabia because that's where most of the 9/11 terrorists come from?

By the way, OBL is also from SA (another reason to attack that kingdom, tright?)Invasion was hyperbole, but SA and most definitely Pakistan are not free of connections to AQ. Of course our presence in SA was half the problem Bin Laden had with the US, but the main point is that Arabian/Muslim sympathies toward the US were at their zenith immediately after 9/11, and the Bush administration had critical choices to make about how to turn that will into cooperation. Afghanistan was a good choice. Iraq was a disasterous choice and evaporated the remaining goodwill of the general populations in places like Pakistan and SA, severely restricting our options for operations in those countries (military or otherwise) and making us dependent on the despots in control of those countries whose best interest may just lie in appeasing or coexisting with the terrorists. The latest reports out of Pakistan suggest just that.

[Yonivore]

Isreal occupies Lebanese soil know was Shebaa Farms in the Golan.
No. I was asking about Hezbollah land. Lebanon didn't attack Israel.

Oh yeah. And, instruct the rest of us, if you would Manny, exactly what were the circumstances under which Israel came to occupy Shebaa Farms, The West Bank, The Golan Heights, and The Gaza Strip?