Olbermann sums up 9/11

[CubanMustGo]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/#060911a

Half a lifetime ago, I worked in this now-empty space. And for 40 days after the attacks, I worked here again, trying to make sense of what happened, and was yet to happen, as a reporter.

All the time, I knew that the very air I breathed contained the remains of thousands of people, including four of my friends, two in the planes and -- as I discovered from those "missing posters" seared still into my soul -- two more in the Towers.

And I knew too, that this was the pyre for hundreds of New York policemen and firemen, of whom my family can claim half a dozen or more, as our ancestors.

I belabor this to emphasize that, for me this was, and is, and always shall be, personal.

And anyone who claims that I and others like me are "soft,"or have "forgotten" the lessons of what happened here is at best a grasping, opportunistic, dilettante and at worst, an idiot whether he is a commentator, or a Vice President, or a President.

However, of all the things those of us who were here five years ago could have forecast -- of all the nightmares that unfolded before our eyes, and the others that unfolded only in our minds -- none of us could have predicted this.

Five years later this space is still empty.

Five years later there is no memorial to the dead.

Five years later there is no building rising to show with proud defiance that we would not have our America wrung from us, by cowards and criminals.

Five years later this country's wound is still open.

Five years later this country's mass grave is still unmarked.

Five years later this is still just a background for a photo-op.

It is beyond shameful.

At the dedication of the Gettysburg Memorial -- barely four months after the last soldier staggered from another Pennsylvania field -- Mr. Lincoln said, "we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Lincoln used those words to immortalize their sacrifice.

Today our leaders could use those same words to rationalize their reprehensible inaction. "We cannot dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground." So we won't.

Instead they bicker and buck pass. They thwart private efforts, and jostle to claim credit for initiatives that go nowhere. They spend the money on irrelevant wars, and elaborate self-congratulations, and buying off columnists to write how good a job they're doing instead of doing any job at all.

Five years later, Mr. Bush, we are still fighting the terrorists on these streets. And look carefully, sir, on these 16 empty acres. The terrorists are clearly, still winning.

And, in a crime against every victim here and every patriotic sentiment you mouthed but did not enact, you have done nothing about it.

And there is something worse still than this vast gaping hole in this city, and in the fabric of our nation. There is its symbolism of the promise unfulfilled, the urgent oath, reduced to lazy execution.

The only positive on 9/11 and the days and weeks that so slowly and painfully followed it was the unanimous humanity, here, and throughout the country. The government, the President in particular, was given every possible measure of support.

Those who did not belong to his party -- tabled that.

Those who doubted the mechanics of his election -- ignored that.

Those who wondered of his qualifications -- forgot that.

History teaches us that nearly unanimous support of a government cannot be taken away from that government by its critics. It can only be squandered by those who use it not to heal a nation's wounds, but to take political advantage.

Terrorists did not come and steal our newly-regained sense of being American first, and political, fiftieth. Nor did the Democrats. Nor did the media. Nor did the people.

The President -- and those around him -- did that.

They promised bi-partisanship, and then showed that to them, "bi-partisanship" meant that their party would rule and the rest would have to follow, or be branded, with ever-escalating hysteria, as morally or intellectually confused, as appeasers, as those who, in the Vice President's words yesterday, "validate the strategy of the terrorists."

They promised protection, and then showed that to them "protection" meant going to war against a despot whose hand they had once shaken, a despot who we now learn from our own Senate Intelligence Committee, hated al-Qaida as much as we did.

The polite phrase for how so many of us were duped into supporting a war, on the false premise that it had 'something to do' with 9/11 is "lying by implication."

The impolite phrase is "impeachable offense."

Not once in now five years has this President ever offered to assume responsibility for the failures that led to this empty space, and to this, the current, curdled, version of our beloved country.

Still, there is a last snapping flame from a final candle of respect and fairness: even his most virulent critics have never suggested he alone bears the full brunt of the blame for 9/11.

Half the time, in fact, this President has been so gently treated, that he has seemed not even to be the man most responsible for anything in his own administration.

Yet what is happening this very night?

A mini-series, created, influenced -- possibly financed by -- the most radical and cold of domestic political Machiavellis, continues to be televised into our homes.

The documented truths of the last fifteen years are replaced by bald-faced lies; the talking points of the current regime parroted; the whole sorry story blurred, by spin, to make the party out of office seem vacillating and impotent, and the party in office, seem like the only option.

How dare you, Mr. President, after taking cynical advantage of the unanimity and love, and transmuting it into fraudulent war and needless death, after monstrously transforming it into fear and suspicion and turning that fear into the campaign slogan of three elections? How dare you -- or those around you -- ever "spin" 9/11?

Just as the terrorists have succeeded -- are still succeeding -- as long as there is no memorial and no construction here at Ground Zero.

So, too, have they succeeded, and are still succeeding as long as this government uses 9/11 as a wedge to pit Americans against Americans.

This is an odd point to cite a television program, especially one from March of 1960. But as Disney's continuing sell-out of the truth (and this country) suggests, even television programs can be powerful things.

And long ago, a series called "The Twilight Zone" broadcast a riveting episode entitled "The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street."

In brief: a meteor sparks rumors of an invasion by extra-terrestrials disguised as humans. The electricity goes out. A neighbor pleads for calm. Suddenly his car -- and only his car -- starts. Someone suggests he must be the alien. Then another man's lights go on. As charges and suspicion and panic overtake the street, guns are inevitably produced. An "alien" is shot -- but he turns out to be just another neighbor, returning from going for help. The camera pulls back to a near-by hill, where two extra-terrestrials are seen manipulating a small device that can jam electricity. The veteran tells his novice that there's no need to actually attack, that you just turn off a few of the human machines and then, "they pick the most dangerous enemy they can find, and it's themselves."

And then, in perhaps his finest piece of writing, Rod Serling sums it up with words of remarkable prescience, given where we find ourselves tonight: "The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices, to be found only in the minds of men.

"For the record, prejudices can kill and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own -- for the children, and the children yet unborn."

When those who dissent are told time and time again -- as we will be, if not tonight by the President, then tomorrow by his portable public chorus -- that he is preserving our freedom, but that if we use any of it, we are somehow un-American...When we are scolded, that if we merely question, we have "forgotten the lessons of 9/11"... look into this empty space behind me and the bi-partisanship upon which this administration also did not build, and tell me:

Who has left this hole in the ground?

We have not forgotten, Mr. President.

You have.

May this country forgive you.

[samikeyp]

Well said.

[Zunni]

Bravo.

[FromWayDowntown]

Olbermann will be shredded. But his argument is a coherent criticism of an apparent willingness to capitalize on tragedy without ever really addressing the very thing that caused the tragedy in the first place. I'm not sure that the White House has any say about the WTC site other than some degree of bullying competing interests; but the concern does seem less with honoring the dead than with burying political opposition in a slew of invective.

[PixelPusher]

Five years later this country's wound is still open.

Five years later this country's mass grave is still unmarked.

Five years later this is still just a background for a photo-op.

If I were a cynical person, I might surmise that a "open wound" makes for a better photo-op for someone urging everyone to "stay the course" in this rhetorical monstrosity known as the "War on Terror", than a proud memorial that might signify a sense of progress and healing.

...if I were cynical.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't have a particularly high opinion of Olbermann, but that's easily the best work he has ever produced.

[Ya Vez]

what a load of crap....

[George Gervin's Afro]

I read a great editorial today that criticized 5 deferrment Dick's interview on Meet the Press. CHeney basically said that the terrorists are emboldened by the debate going on in this country. So , as the author pointed out, is debate supposed to stop? The debate necessary for a democracy must stop if you don't buy his or Bush's argument? Pathetic..

[Mr. Peabody]

Finally someone calls out the President for squandering the sense of unity this country experienced following 9-11.

I imagine that Olbermann will be skewered before the day's end by those on the right.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Finally someone calls out the President for squandering the sense of unity this country experienced following 9-11.

I imagine that Olbermann will be skewered before the day's end by those on the right.


Exactly..on one hand the GOP wants untiy on the war in Iraq..and then they turn around and campaign that Dems are not strong enough on defense issues.. but they want unity.. and to not politicize the war in Iraq..

[101A]

The fact that there is a hole in the ground still underlines the point, more than anything, that government in this day and age, at all levels, is inept, incompetent, and unable to get the simplest of initiatives passed. Let's not look beyond the obvious.

Also, there is much revisionist history going on here.

The U.S. did not invade Iraq because of its ties to 9/11 - The Congress gave the President authority to invade Iraq because of Saddam Hussein's past use of WMD, and the belief that he either still had them, or was actively developing them. Saddam was not allowing inspecters unfettered access, was flaunting U.N. resolutions passed because he had invaded a neighboring country a decade earlier; he was a target in the mideast.

I believe the President and his administration WERE NOT forthcoming with the real reason to invade Iraq, and that was to develop a modern, liberal democracy in the Middle East. The administration naively believed they could invade, write a constitution, and BAM - instant freedom and democracy. Soon to follow, in there eyes, was Iran, with its young torrent of apparently non-Islamic, Western-loving adolescents, then Turkey, Syria, etc...

This plan, now that we can see it 4 years later, was flawed. The administration underestimated the resistance to what they had planned, and how much the Islamists would fight them. Osama Bin Laden specifically preaches that the Western Democracies are the MOST UNHOLY forms of government ever conceived specifically because they don't have God at their core - that our laws are written without divine guidance! Islam is religion/government/education and daily life all rolled into a single package; there is NO separation. It is diametrically opposed to everything Western society began evolving from since the reformation/renaissance. People who believe like OBL will fight to the absolute end to prevent us setting up our kind of political structure in their homeland. As much as we think they hate our way of life and liberty, they think we abhore and want to do away with theirs. They are right. We are right.

What is the president guilty of? Not stating his true goals from the outset and GROSS miscalculation. Had Iraq gone as the administration planned (and remember as late as Nov. '04 it was still a winning issue), the war critics would have been silenced, and the international hatred of what we were doing over there would not have gotten momentum. Heck, we'd have a two year old, functioning democratic ally in the mid-east! It didn't work out that way.

Mea Culpa? Yep, I believed it would work. I never thought we were going into Iraq to take out Saddam & his weapons. I ALWAYS thought we were nation building, and I thought it would work. I was wrong. Ultimately, Islam is going to have to have its own reformation. Because of its teachings, ANY interaction we have in that part of the world will be seen a meddling, and will certainly not help our cause. Israel, in this regard, is a HUGE problem. As long as we back them, the Islamists will hate us, and will be able to use that hatred to bolster their power, and keep their political and religious systems from evolving. If we don't bakc them; well we all know what happens if we don't back them.

I think the Administration's biggest sin was not recognizing how hopeless the relationship between the West and the followers of Islam truly is.

[George Gervin's Afro]

The fact that there is a hole in the ground still underlines the point, more than anything, that government in this day and age, at all levels, is inept, incompetent, and unable to get the simplest of initiatives passed. Let's not look beyond the obvious.

Also, there is much revisionist history going on here.

The U.S. did not invade Iraq because of its ties to 9/11 - The Congress gave the President authority to invade Iraq because of Saddam Hussein's past use of WMD, and the belief that he either still had them, or was actively developing them. Saddam was not allowing inspecters unfettered access, was flaunting U.N. resolutions passed because he had invaded a neighboring country a decade earlier; he was a target in the mideast.

I believe the President and his administration WERE NOT forthcoming with the real reason to invade Iraq, and that was to develop a modern, liberal democracy in the Middle East. The administration naively believed they could invade, write a constitution, and BAM - instant freedom and democracy. Soon to follow, in there eyes, was Iran, with its young torrent of apparently non-Islamic, Western-loving adolescents, then Turkey, Syria, etc...

This plan, now that we can see it 4 years later, was flawed. The administration underestimated the resistance to what they had planned, and how much the Islamists would fight them. Osama Bin Laden specifically preaches that the Western Democracies are the MOST UNHOLY forms of government ever conceived specifically because they don't have God at their core - that our laws are written without divine guidance! Islam is religion/government/education and daily life all rolled into a single package; there is NO separation. It is diametrically opposed to everything Western society began evolving from since the reformation/renaissance. People who believe like OBL will fight to the absolute end to prevent us setting up our kind of political structure in their homeland. As much as we think they hate our way of life and liberty, they think we abhore and want to do away with theirs. They are right. We are right.

What is the president guilty of? Not stating his true goals from the outset and GROSS miscalculation. Had Iraq gone as the administration planned (and remember as late as Nov. '04 it was still a winning issue), the war critics would have been silenced, and the international hatred of what we were doing over there would not have gotten momentum. Heck, we'd have a two year old, functioning democratic ally in the mid-east! It didn't work out that way.

Mea Culpa? Yep, I believed it would work. I never thought we were going into Iraq to take out Saddam & his weapons. I ALWAYS thought we were nation building, and I thought it would work. I was wrong. Ultimately, Islam is going to have to have its own reformation. Because of its teachings, ANY interaction we have in that part of the world will be seen a meddling, and will certainly not help our cause. Israel, in this regard, is a HUGE problem. As long as we back them, the Islamists will hate us, and will be able to use that hatred to bolster their power, and keep their political and religious systems from evolving. If we don't bakc them; well we all know what happens if we don't back them.

I think the Administration's biggest sin was not recognizing how hopeless the relationship between the West and the followers of Islam truly is.


I agree with you (see bold) but Bush should have made this case before the war. The dishonest part of us going to Iraq was that he and his inner circle knew the country would not support a nation building experiment so they decided to start the war with the nation still reeling from 9/11.. they used the WMDS threat as a way to scare the country and in the end the Iraq war turned out to be an 'ends justify the means' type action..

[Spurminator]

Bush failed to maintain the unity we experienced after 9/11 with divisive policies and poor communication of his objectives.

Five years later, every issue or policy decision important to America has become another round in an incessant Partisan sport... Republicans vs. Democrats, Bush-haters vs. Bush-apologists. This is due in no small part to the "24-hour news media" trending further and further away from real newsreporting and sinking into the comfortable ratings-cushioned Pundit-dominated format we have today, of which Olbermann is a part. For that reason, his words, while accurate for the most part, ring hollow to me.

[101A]

I agree with you (see bold) but Bush should have made this case before the war. The dishonest part of us going to Iraq was that he and his inner circle knew the country would not support a nation building experiment so they decided to start the war with the nation still reeling from 9/11.. they used the WMDS threat as a way to scare the country and in the end the Iraq war turned out to be an 'ends justify the means' type action..

I should have written that, but my post had already gotten too long. I agree.

[101A]

Bush failed to maintain the unity we experienced after 9/11 with divisive policies and poor communication of his objectives.

Five years later, every issue or policy decision important to America has become another round in an incessant Partisan sport... Republicans vs. Democrats, Bush-haters vs. Bush-apologists. This is due in no small part to the "24-hour news media" trending further and further away from real newsreporting and sinking into the comfortable ratings-cushioned Pundit-dominated format we have today, of which Olbermann is a part. For that reason, his words, while accurate for the most part, ring hollow to me.

The only give/take that I find bearable is the New Hour. Shields and Brooks are level-headed and seemingly w/o an agenda. They each have a position, but are open-minded and informative. The best criticismy and analysis is generally that coming from the same side of the aisle.

[JoeChalupa]

I concur Mr. Olbermann. Well done.

[101A]

So, too, have they succeeded, and are still succeeding as long as this government uses 9/11 as a wedge to pit Americans against Americans.

"Welfare Momma"
"Rich not paying their fare share"
"Corporate handouts/favors/welfare"
"Willie Horton"

...and the list could go on forever. Like THIS administration is the first to pit "American against American"! Olberman is truly just part of the shrill noise of the political "debate" these days. People on "his" side scream, "Take That"...people on the other side: "What a bunch of Crap!". Neither is right.

The administration is incapable of admitting it has made any mistakes, the left won't offer any constuctive suggestions - they just want a pound of the president's flesh; I honestly believe, hell I know, most liberals now consider GW a much bigger enemy than OBL - hell more than a few actually think GW orchestrated THE WHOLE THING! Impossible to have a legitimate discussion about how to proceed in this environment. In fact, even if the Democrats get control of BOTH houses, they are going to spend the next two years investigating, holding hearings, etc...rather than getting on with the business of dealing with the issues that are still out there. If the Republicans hold on? I can't even imagine how shrill it will become.

[JoeChalupa]

"Welfare Momma"
"Rich not paying their fare share"
"Corporate handouts/favors/welfare"
"Willie Horton"

...and the list could go on forever. Like THIS administration is the first to pit "American against American"! Olberman is truly just part of the shrill noise of the political "debate" these days. People on "his" side scream, "Take That"...people on the other side: "What a bunch of Crap!". Neither is right.

The administration is incapable of admitting it has made any mistakes, the left won't offer any constuctive suggestions - they just want a pound of the president's flesh; I honestly believe, hell I know, most liberals now consider GW a much bigger enemy than OBL - hell more than a few actually think GW orchestrated THE WHOLE THING! Impossible to have a legitimate discussion about how to proceed in this environment. In fact, even if the Democrats get control of BOTH houses, they are going to spend the next two years investigating, holding hearings, etc...rather than getting on with the business of dealing with the issues that are still out there. If the Republicans hold on? I can't even imagine how shrill it will become.

Well, there you go again. I see you've fallen for Rove and Cheney's BS. Most "liberals" as you label them are just as much against OBL as "conservatives" are but they belive the BS that they've been fed from the leaders of their party and can't/won't think on their own. I don't buy all the rhetoric coming from either side since it is just crap anyways.
I don't think most conservatives are war hungry cold hearted people 'cause I know it just isn't true. Surely you don't really believe it either.

[boutons_]

"GW a much bigger enemy than OBL"

dubya will very soon have murdered more US military in Iraq than OBL murdered civilians at WTC.

dubya's phony Iraq war will cost the US $1T, many times more than OBL and all other terrorist have cost the USA.

OBL accomplished more, advanced his goals more at the WTC than dubya has accomplished even his bullshit goals in Iraq.

OBL said it was very hard to strike into the US, so his goal was to draw the US into foreign lands.

dubya complied with OBL's plan in the worst possible way in Iraq.

[101A]

Well, there you go again. I see you've fallen for Rove and Cheney's BS. Most "liberals" as you label them are just as much against OBL as "conservatives" are but they belive the BS that they've been fed from the leaders of their party and can't/won't think on their own. I don't buy all the rhetoric coming from either side since it is just crap anyways.
I don't think most conservatives are war hungry cold hearted people 'cause I know it just isn't true. Surely you don't really believe it either.


You're right, I should not have used the word "most", "some" would have been more accurate.

For evidence of "some" I present Boutons:



"GW a much bigger enemy than OBL"

dubya will very soon have murdered more US military in Iraq than OBL murdered civilians at WTC.

dubya's phony Iraq war will cost the US $1T, many times more than OBL and all other terrorist have cost the USA.

OBL accomplished more, advanced his goals more at the WTC than dubya has accomplished even his bullshit goals in Iraq.

OBL said it was very hard to strike into the US, so his goal was to draw the US into foreign lands.

dubya complied with OBL's plan in the worst possible way in Iraq.

[JoeChalupa]

That about somes it up though.

[Mr. Peabody]

OBL accomplished more, advanced his goals more at the WTC than dubya has accomplished even his bullshit goals in Iraq.



I don't understand the point you are trying to make with this statement. The two men have entirely different goals (one to cause terrror and the other to spread Islamic fundamentalism -- :D ).

You would have to admit that causing terror is much easier than setting up a democracy, so I don't think OBL has bested GW in this regard.

[Drive Like Jehu]

Nothing overcomes partisanship like finger pointing.

[NASCARdad]

To hell with Olbermann and all you other chicken shits!!

[CubanMustGo]

To hell with Olbermann and all you other chicken shits!!

Now there's a cogent argument.

[George Gervin's Afro]

To hell with Olbermann and all you other chicken shits!!


CHICKENSHITS= those who do not drink the kool aid

[Crookshanks]

Now there's a cogent argument.

There is no argument that will change people's minds. For instance, someone mentioned "Willie Horton." That is just liberal propaganda - the facts are quite different from how the libs have spun it over the years, but it's so entrenched in liberal talking points that no one even thinks to check the facts.

As evidenced over and over on this forum - certain people have their views and opinions and the other side is never going to change them. So, at some point, some of us get tired of responding to editorials such as this one. We don't believe what is written because we know the political agenda of the one writing it; however, nothing we say will ever change the mind of those on the opposite side - so why bother!

[boutons_]

"OBL accomplished more, advanced his goals more at the WTC than dubya has accomplished even his bullshit goals in Iraq."

As a show of OBL/terror strength, dedication, intelligence, cunning, discipline, understanding of the enemy's weaknesses, WTC attack was fantastically stunning in so many ways. It is right up there as a historical/military legendary success with the Trojan horse. Five years later, that WTC scar is still a gaping wound as NYC egomaniacs fight over $$$ and personal legacies, with no leadership or refereeing from the WH.

4 years after the US attacked Aghanistan, the al-Quaida and Taleban are resurging, the NATO commander is calling for more troops, the opium crop is through the roof, the warlords are re-installed in the provinces, and the Afghan government is barely effective even within Kabul.

So America is cowed and afraid and wimpering, frisking grannies at airports, the Repugs repeating "the terrorists will strike when, not if", the "terrorists can and will strike anywhere, anytime, anyplace", "America is safer, but not safe" Orwellianisms, if the incessant keep-Repugs-in-office scare-mongering is to be believed.

dubya said he went into Iraq for WMD. He totally fucked that up. No WMD. No al-Quaida (not at invasion, but now, al Quaida is the de facto government in the Ramadi area. heckuva job! )

dubya was completely bluffed by Saddam, did not understand Saddam, and totally didn't understand the situation in Iraq ("slam dunk", "greeted with open arms as liberators", no insurgency or civil war foreseen or planned, totally underestimated the number of troops required, "the army you have", etc, etc)

The WTC attack immortalized OBL, made him appear stronger and more dangerous than he really is, while being a huge and effective jihad recruiting poster for millions of Muslims.

History will document that dubya in Iraq has made a humongously stupid and costly strategic blunder, right up there with VN, and French defeats at Waterloo and the Napolean's winter march into Russia. The limits of the US military stregth, along with the Israeli's similar limits recently, have been exposed, while terror flourishes.

Does anybody think OBL didn't know the Repugs and neo-cons had been talking about going into Iraq years before 2000? OBL's WTC attack invited dubya to take out a hated jihad foe in Iraq, while distracting the US military and attenton from OBL's jihad. Brilliant, absolutely fucking brilliant.

In recruiting terms, dubya's Iraq has kept millions of American warriors in front of their TVs rather than enticing them into uniforms. The only way the military can meet its goals is by paying $40K signup bonus, raising the signup age to 42, and lowering the standards to scrape more from the bottom of the barrel. The US military has such a strong stomach for the Iraq war that the Army had to institute stop-loss orders and other service-lengthening tactics.

"much easier than setting up a democracy,"

yes, terror is easier. Setting up a stable and strong democracy in Iraq is being shown to be fucking impossible, and that wasn't why dubya said in Feb 03 why he was invading Iraq.

OBL fought with what he had and accomplished a huge victory. dubya fought the wrong battle with the much more he had, and is bogged down in Iraq with no victory in sight. OBL is way ahead.

( btw, the hustle that was pulled on the Sunnis to back the Constitution a year ago is coming undone. The Sunnis didn't want the federal partitioning of Iraq with local regional autonomy because they knew they would end up wtih oil-less Anbar, while the Shiites got the southern/eastern oil, and the Kurds got the northern oil. The Shiites/US hustle was that they would fix that after the Constituion was approved. The Shiites are now refusing to fix it to the Sunnis' satisfaction. With the Shiite-Sunni slaughter in the streets, the civil war will probably manifest itself soon in a fatally divided, moot parliament. )

The last years have been, and the next years will continue to be, a critical juncture in US history, and in the world. To face this challenge, the Repugs and other sheeple have elected the most stupid, limited, uncreative, unvisionary, incompetent, ignorant chickenshit president and administration in US history.

But the Repugs got those tax cuts for the super-rich, so everything's cool.

[101A]

There is no argument that will change people's minds. For instance, someone mentioned "Willie Horton." That is just liberal propaganda - the facts are quite different from how the libs have spun it over the years, but it's so entrenched in liberal talking points that no one even thinks to check the facts.

As evidenced over and over on this forum - certain people have their views and opinions and the other side is never going to change them. So, at some point, some of us get tired of responding to editorials such as this one. We don't believe what is written because we know the political agenda of the one writing it; however, nothing we say will ever change the mind of those on the opposite side - so why bother!


My views have changed - as reality has, and I mentioned Willie Horton; I know intellectually it was not a divisive add - but popular culture has made it so; it was simply a prop, anyway, in a larger point I was trying to make - that dividing Americans against each other is not unique to this administration; although Olbermann seems to think it is.

[101A]

4 years after the US attacked Aghanistan, the al-Quaida and Taleban are resurging, the NATO commander is calling for more troops, the opium crop is through the roof, the warlords are re-installed in the provinces, and the Afghan government is barely effective even within Kabul.

TRUE


So America is cowed and afraid and wimpering, frisking grannies at airports, the Repugs repeating "the terrorists will strike when, not if", the "terrorists can and will strike anywhere, anytime, anyplace", "America is safer, but not safe" Orwellianisms, if the incessant keep-Repugs-in-office scare-mongering is to be believed.

TRUE


dubya said he went into Iraq for WMD. He totally fucked that up. No WMD. No al-Quaida (not at invasion, but now, al Quaida is the de facto government in the Ramadi area. heckuva job!

TRUE


dubya was completely bluffed by Saddam, did not understand Saddam, and totally didn't understand the situation in Iraq ("slam dunk", "greeted with open arms as liberators", no insurgency or civil war foreseen or planned, totally underestimated the number of troops required, "the army you have", etc, etc)

TRUE


The WTC attack immortalized OBL, made him appear stronger and more dangerous than he really is, while being a huge and effective jihad recruiting poster for millions of Muslims.

TRUE


History will document that dubya in Iraq has made a humongously stupid and costly strategic blunder, right up there with VN, and French defeats at Waterloo and the Napolean's winter march into Russia. The limits of the US military stregth, along with the Israeli's similar limits recently, have been exposed, while terror flourishes.

We probably disagree with just how much terrorists are flourishing, but otherwise: TRUE


Does anybody think OBL didn't know the Repugs and neo-cons had been talking about going into Iraq years before 2000? OBL's WTC attack invited dubya to take out a hated jihad foe in Iraq, while distracting the US military and attenton from OBL's jihad. Brilliant, absolutely fucking brilliant.


Might very well be TRUE


In recruiting terms, dubya's Iraq has kept millions of American warriors in front of their TVs rather than enticing them into uniforms. The only way the military can meet its goals is by paying $40K signup bonus, raising the signup age to 42, and lowering the standards to scrape more from the bottom of the barrel. The US military has such a strong stomach for the Iraq war that the Army had to institute stop-loss orders and other service-lengthening tactics.

Sounds TRUE


yes, terror is easier. Setting up a stable and strong democracy in Iraq is being shown to be fucking impossible, and that wasn't why dubya said in Feb 03 why he was invading Iraq.

TRUE


OBL fought with what he had and accomplished a huge victory. dubya fought the wrong battle with the much more he had, and is bogged down in Iraq with no victory in sight. OBL is way ahead.

OBL is personally margianalized, but as far as winning hearts and minds in the Middle East ... TRUE


( btw, the hustle that was pulled on the Sunnis to back the Constitution a year ago is coming undone. The Sunnis didn't want the federal partitioning of Iraq with local regional autonomy because they knew they would end up wtih oil-less Anbar, while the Shiites got the southern/eastern oil, and the Kurds got the northern oil. The Shiites/US hustle was that they would fix that after the Constituion was approved. The Shiites are now refusing to fix it to the Sunnis' satisfaction. With the Shiite-Sunni slaughter in the streets, the civil war will probably manifest itself soon in a fatally divided, moot parliament. )

I'm not ready to grant this, but in 6 months it could be TRUE


The last years have been, and the next years will continue to be, a critical juncture in US history, and in the world. To face this challenge, the Repugs and other sheeple have elected the most stupid, limited, uncreative, unvisionary, incompetent, ignorant chickenshit president and administration in US history.

For arguments sake: TRUE


But the Repugs got those tax cuts for the super-rich, so everything's cool.

Every single American who pays income tax received a tax cut; since the "Super Rich" pay a disproportianate percentage of those taxes: TRUE

Now, Boutons, that I have ceded just about every one of your points - do you have anything whatsoever to add to the discussion? Any ideas about how to proceed? I can tell you right now every play Mack Brown SHOULDN'T have called last Saturday, but I don't really know what the hell to tell him to do this one.

You are a shrill bully. You offer no suggestions, and seldom add to any debate. You get involved in a thread, and your only purpose seems to be to sling mud and call names. Your act is tired. Please grow up.

[Crookshanks]

You are a shrill bully. You offer no suggestions, and seldom add to any debate. You get involved in a thread, and your only purpose seems to be to sling mud and call names. Your act is tired. Please grow up.

Well said! I couldn't agree more!! Boutons act has grown very old and tiresome - so much so that I usually just scroll through his posts and very rarely read anything he posts. You can only say "dickhead", "shrub" and "repugs" so much - and it's WAAAY past so much!!!

[johnsmith]

Now, Boutons, that I have ceded just about every one of your points - do you have anything whatsoever to add to the discussion? Any ideas about how to proceed? I can tell you right now every play Mack Brown SHOULDN'T have called last Saturday, but I don't really know what the hell to tell him to do this one.

You are a shrill bully. You offer no suggestions, and seldom add to any debate. You get involved in a thread, and your only purpose seems to be to sling mud and call names. Your act is tired. Please grow up.



True

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

ow, Boutons, that I have ceded just about every one of your points - do you have anything whatsoever to add to the discussion? Any ideas about how to proceed? I can tell you right now every play Mack Brown SHOULDN'T have called last Saturday, but I don't really know what the hell to tell him to do this one.

You are a shrill bully. You offer no suggestions, and seldom add to any debate. You get involved in a thread, and your only purpose seems to be to sling mud and call names. Your act is tired. Please grow up.

True and true.

But give him a little bit of credit. He's damn good at Ctrl + C and Ctrl + V.

:lol

[johnsmith]

True and true.

But give him a little bit of credit. He's damn good at Ctrl + C and Ctrl + V.

:lol

True, some people go that whole route of right clicking and then clicking on the paste option, not Boutons though, he hot-keys the hell out of this board. He's always been so efficient.

[Sometimes I Do]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdD6op0l2jk


watch the video

[Mr. Peabody]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdD6op0l2jk


watch the video
Olbermann's been on a roll lately -- first taking it to Rummy and now the pres. He is getting mad love from the left because of this.


The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.

Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.

:lol

[Yonivore]

If you're seeing shades of gray, you're just not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

[Mr. Peabody]

If you're seeing shades of gray, you're just not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

:lol

[boutons_]

"do you have anything whatsoever to add to the discussion?"

my post did add to the discussion, compared with bullshit slung from the resident dickless twerp.

'Any ideas about how to proceed?"

Nothing original or new. all the ideas have been kicked around for years.

When the Dems gain control of the House, impeach dubya and dickhead, recall the Medal of Freedom from Mr Slam Dunk and other undeserving incompetents.

The old, scorned fuck-over-my-career Shinsheki idea of enough troops, like 400+K, as recommended again, today, by these smash-mouth, hard-right wingers:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/11/AR2006091100879.html

If general Iraqi security cannot be assured, reconstruction and political progress is dead in the water, never mind a stable and strong democracy. "The army we have" per Rummy was never enough, the too-small army allowed the security situation to turn disastrously into a civil war, impeding fatally any other goals (reconstruction, popular Iraqi support and patience for the US occupation)