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DieMrBond
09-14-2006, 03:05 AM
Reader's Request: Dirtiest players
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5860712


Note: This is the fifth piece in a series where NBA analyst Charley Rosen takes suggested topics from our readers and expands upon them in great detail. If you have a question that you would like to have Charley give the "Reader Request" treatment, just fire it off in the box below.

I know that you're not afraid of being controversial, so how about identifying the dirtiest players of all time? — Mr. X

A distinction must be made between players who are rough and those who are downright dirty. Although those in the former category play physical, rock-'em-sock-'em basketball, they do so within the boundaries of certain accepted techniques having to do with appropriate placements for aggressive elbows, hip bumps and forearm thumps, plus the execution of deliberate fouls that are not career-threatening, and so on.

Players who are considered to be dirty, however, routinely overstep these boundaries and are more concerned with winning than with the possibility of their tactics inflicting serious injuries on their opponents.

That said, the NBA's inaugural season of 1946-47 (when the league was known as the Basketball Association of America) featured the largest number of truly dirty players. The reason for this was that most of the BAA's 11 charter franchises were administered by men (or their representatives) who owned arenas, and who also were either total or partial owners of the professional ice hockey teams that played in those arenas.

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Accordingly, it was believed that nothing pepped up a game and brought back customers more than a rousing fistfight. Despite the fact that zone defenses were legal (if for only the initial 10 weeks of that first season), the players gleefully assaulted each other on a regular basis. The referees lacked any real authority to curtail this violence &3151; technical fouls incurred a mere $25 fine and were used to pay the commissioner's salary. There were no automatic penalties for blatant punches, elbows to the face, trips, kicks or bites.

# As a result, early BAA action was as much mayhem as it was skilled competition. Even so, one player was deemed to be the most bloodthirsty and physically abusive of them all — Ed Sadowski. But "Big Ed" was more than just a hatchet man. He was a 6-foot-5, 240-pound powerhouse scorer in the low post, who averaged a career-high of 19.4 ppg with the 1947-48 Boston Celtics.

# Wally Osterkorn (1951-55) had his career shortened by a torn muscle in his thigh, but he showed no mercy to opponents while he was healthy. He once greeted a highly-touted rookie named Jack Molinas with a pair of vicious elbows to the stomach before saying, "Welcome to the NBA, Jack." And Osterkorn used to dare Bob Cousy to drive the ball into the middle. But Osterkorn's untrammeled ferocity was tamed when he got involved in a fight with Zeke Zawoluk resulting in Zawoluk's mother racing out of the stands and beating Osterkorn's head with an umbrella. Unwilling to hit a woman, Osterkorn allowed her to chase him around the court until Zawoluk finally corralled her.

# Red Auerbach always liked having a hit-man or two on his roster, the most notable being Bob "The Tank" Brannum (1948-55), Dwight "Red" Morrison (1954-58) and "Jungle" Jim Loscutoff (1955-64).

# How mean was Charlie Share? At 6-11, 245, he played for several teams from 1951-1960, and was noted for setting the most evil moving screens in the NBA. During part of his tenure with the Fort Wayne Pistons, Share's coach was Paul Birch, an infamous hot-head who wasn't very far removed from his own active career to the point where he often scrimmaged with his team. During one such scrimmage, Share enhanced one of his attack screens with an elbow to Birch's head that sent his coach sprawling. No surprise that Share was quickly traded to Milwaukee.

Opposing centers weren't afraid to admit having nightmares in anticipation of facing the Zelmo Beatty's wrath. (Wen Roberts/NBAE / Getty Images)

# Zelmo Beatty (1962-1975) was a certified All-Star who used his elbows to help carve out space for him to operate in the pivot. Opposing centers weren't afraid to admit having nightmares in anticipation of facing the Big Z's wrath.

# Nor was John Stockton quite the choir boy he seemed to be. Indeed, Stockton's elbow-flashing back-screens were a constant menace.

# A pair of Knicks also make the list — Anthony Mason and Xavier "X-Man" McDaniel. This pairing came about when Pat Riley dropped his slick-Showtime game plan in order to mimic the contemporary successes of the Bad Boy Pistons.

# Speaking of which … Chuck Daly claimed that he had nothing to do with the below-the-belt antics of his players, which was, of course, nonsense. In any event, these guys were arguably the dirtiest team of all time.

Bill Laimbeer was the most obvious offender, with his brutal head-hunting and after-the-whistle fouls — and Dennis Rodman wasn't far behind. But the worst offender on that team was Isiah Thomas. Zeke's favorite little trick was exercised on defense, when he was wont to step on an opponent's plant-foot just the unsuspecting player was trying to take off with ball in hand and jump to the basket. If the refs never caught on to this nasty business, Thomas's peers were well aware that their careers were jeopardized whenever they tried to beat Zeke to the hoop. And this was the primary reason why MJ refused to play on the original Dream Team if Thomas was included on the roster.

# Of today's players, Bruce Bowen's grabbing, scratching and under-cutting defense qualifies him as the dirtiest. Kenyon Martin's bully-boy tactics hover on the edge of danger, but only when he plays at home. Ruben Patterson sometimes crosses the line, as does Danny Fortson.

# But the dirtiest player in NBA history was Dave Cowens. Yes, he was skilled. Yes, he was tough. Yet his all-out aggressiveness was frequently mindless and downright sadistic. (In a bar-fight while he was in college, Cowens once bit off a large piece of an antagonist's nose.) Cowens, more than any of his predecessors, was considered by his contemporaries to be the one player whose over-the-top brutality was most likely to send an opponent to the hospital.

OUCH!

Charley Rosen is FOXSports.com's NBA analyst and author of 13 books about hoops, the current one being "The pivotal season, How the 1971-72 L.A. Lakers changed the NBA."

polandprzem
09-14-2006, 03:52 AM
I would love to see Cowens dirty play.
I watched to small amount of his games :(

PM5K
09-14-2006, 04:31 AM
Strange, he makes the distinction between rough and dirty and then totally misclassifies Bowen...

sanman53
09-14-2006, 05:57 AM
I am glad to see Stockton on the list. I always hated his back screens.

ShoogarBear
09-14-2006, 07:12 AM
Strange, he makes the distinction between rough and dirty and then totally misclassifies Bowen...

Yeah, Rosen is inconsistently all over the place, as per usual.

I don't think anybody would place Dave Cowens as the dirtiest player of all time.

Although I too am glad to see Stockton get called out, since there is a small Church of Stockton around these parts.

polandprzem
09-14-2006, 07:28 AM
Yeah, Rosen is inconsistently all over the place, as per usual.

I don't think anybody would place Dave Cowens as the dirtiest player of all time.

Although I too am glad to see Stockton get called out, since there is a small Church of Stockton around these parts.

Stock is there but his teammate should be there also. Damn - sometimes he was elbowing cause he was mad at somebody.

How about Kurt Rambis? Who remember this guy?
Cause I don't but he looked like a sob

Phenomanul
09-14-2006, 08:12 AM
Stock is there but his teammate should be there also. Damn - sometimes he was elbowing cause he was mad at somebody.

How about Kurt Rambis? Who remember this guy?
Cause I don't but he looked like a sob

Yeah.... where is Karl Malone????

ambchang
09-14-2006, 08:14 AM
Rick Mahorn? Jeff Ruland? Karl Malone? Maurice Lucas? AC Green?
Funny how he used every possible opportunity to bash Thomas, because he is Phil Jackson's mouthpiece.

CubanMustGo
09-14-2006, 08:35 AM
Charley Rosen needs to be on the list of "most idiotic sportswriters."

spurs_fan_in_exile
09-14-2006, 08:41 AM
JR Reid threw some pretty nasty 'bows in his time, too. And Danny Fortson "sometimes crosses the line?" Bullshit. He's easy to overlook because he sucks so bad that he doesn't get big minutes, but when he's out there on the floor he's the dirtiest of the dirty from what I've seen.

Personally I'm just amazed that Rosen finally found a topic where he couldn't take an unwarranted shot at David Robinson when the copy really would have written itself. "Some will argue that Karl Malone was dirty, citing the instance in which a blatantly high elbow knocked David Robinson unconscious. However, this instance is simply an example of rough play and highlights how soft 'The Admiral' was."

ShoogarBear
09-14-2006, 08:44 AM
That's a good point. Maybe he didn't mention Malone because it would indirectly be making points in favor of DRob.

samikeyp
09-14-2006, 08:59 AM
Yeah.... where is Karl Malone????

Looking for Pinatas to destroy and little Mexican girls to love up on.

Solid D
09-14-2006, 09:04 AM
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0743444116.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

ShoogarBear
09-14-2006, 09:09 AM
That would have been more apt for Phil and Rosen if the arrow was pointing at Michael Jordan's shorts.

spurs_fan_in_exile
09-14-2006, 09:17 AM
That would have been more apt for Phil and Rosen if the arrow was pointing at Michael Jordan's shorts.

It'd be awful crowded with Bob Costas in there.

samikeyp
09-14-2006, 09:18 AM
It'd be awful crowded with Bob Costas in there.

and Ahmad Rashad.

polandprzem
09-14-2006, 09:18 AM
Search inside

:lol

vanvannen
09-14-2006, 10:13 AM
Can't believe he didn't include Karl Malone on that list. This guy's a dick.

nkdlunch
09-14-2006, 11:27 AM
I can tell Rosen is a pussy and never played ball. I don't see Bowen being diry cause that's how I play ball too. Most of the time my opposing players don't mind, only a few pussies do, just like in the NBA (example: gay allen)

Solid D
09-14-2006, 11:40 AM
I can tell Rosen is a pussy and never played ball. I don't see Bowen being diry cause that's how I play ball too. Most of the time my opposing players don't mind, only a few pussies do, just like in the NBA (example: gay allen)

I'm not a Rosen apologist, however, he did play ball. He was a very good small-college player and he coached in the CBA for 9 years.

Bowen's not dirty and out of control with his temper like some players are, Danny Fortson for instance.

Whenever I have played ball, the only guys I ever considered dirty were the ones who couldn't control their temper or did not respect the game. These are the guys at the gym or court who end up using their 'bows, pushing someone airborne into the pole or even semi-slugging someone in the face on a follow-through block attempt and then saying "'you okay, man?"

George Gervin's Afro
09-14-2006, 12:12 PM
I liked to play Bowne defense back in the day before it was in vouge...moving my feet..beating you to the position..using my hands ..all without fouling.. used to piss of the brothers that a mexican dude could out ball them..

wildbill2u
09-14-2006, 12:40 PM
I remember when Dennis Rodman played for the Spurs briefly that I was shocked at how sometimes he'd deliberately go underneath someone who was going up for the basket or for a rebound.

That is a very dangerous manuver that takes out an opposing players legs and balance and can result in a very nasty fall. I couldn't wait for that guy to be gone from the Spurs.

Bob Lanier
09-14-2006, 01:37 PM
Although I too am glad to see Stockton get called out, since there is a small Church of Stockton around these parts.
Called out? A sport isn't worth watching (much less playing) if it isn't bloody.

ObiwanGinobili
09-14-2006, 01:47 PM
Strange, he makes the distinction between rough and dirty and then totally misclassifies Bowen...


I noticed that too.. makes me think theres is some personal dislike in that article.

polandprzem
09-14-2006, 02:16 PM
I can tell Rosen is a pussy and never played ball. I don't see Bowen being diry cause that's how I play ball too. Most of the time my opposing players don't mind, only a few pussies do, just like in the NBA (example: gay allen)

So you , Bowen and me are playing the same type of game. :tu

mavs>spurs2
09-14-2006, 02:22 PM
Just because Bowen gets away with alot of grabbing and holding doesn't make him a dirty player. I've never seen him intentionally try to hurt someone.

samikeyp
09-14-2006, 04:23 PM
^^^well said.

RON ARTEST
09-14-2006, 06:29 PM
you guys wouldnt have even said anything if bowens name wasnt mentioned and you know it, i agree rosen is a bad writer but you have to agree that bowen is a dirty player.

TheSanityAnnex
09-14-2006, 06:59 PM
bowen is dirty.
I like the guy, but he is dirty.
I remember the kick to the back, the kick to the face, etc. That is dirty.



And Ron Artest ain't dirty, he just crazy.

RON ARTEST
09-14-2006, 07:14 PM
bowen is dirty.
I like the guy, but he is dirty.
I remember the kick to the back, the kick to the face, etc. That is dirty.



And Ron Artest ain't dirty, he just crazy.
yeah Artest is crazy but not dirty, i like bowen two and would love to have him on my team (backing up artest of course) so im not hating on him im just telling the truth.

Mr.Bottomtooth
09-14-2006, 08:44 PM
I admit the Bowen does get away with calls and he can be considered dirty, but Charley Rosen is gay.

judaspriestess
09-15-2006, 12:40 AM
shees, even faux news sportswriters are full of shit. I guess it rolls downhill

PM5K
09-15-2006, 03:17 PM
I'm sorry but if you think Bowen is a dirty player you are just plain fucking stupid, and should go watch another sport.

Certainly Bowen is a rough (physical) player, but to say he's dirty is just plain ignorant.

How can the leagues "dirtiest" player be the same guy that got no flagrant fouls, and isn't among the league leaders for total fouls, fouls per game, or fouls per forty eight minutes? I doubt he's even in the top fifty for any of those categories, the same goes for technical fouls, although that doesn't always coincide with being dirty, it can be an indicator depending on what the technical was assessed for.

Apparently you don't need to know anything about sports to be a sports writer, interesting...

Louis
09-16-2006, 01:03 AM
Bowen is a dirty player I Agree with Rosen...

NuGGeTs-FaN
09-16-2006, 02:35 AM
Bowen is a great guy :smokin:


















.......but he is also dirty

GrandeDavid
09-16-2006, 09:11 AM
Reader's Request: Dirtiest players
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5860712

Kenyon Martin's bully-boy tactics hover on the edge of danger, but only when he plays at home. Ruben Patterson sometimes crosses the line, as does Danny Fortson.

Great, proud products of my alma mater, Cincinnati. That΄s the Bob Huggins legacy for you:

1. Manufacturing NBA thugs
2. Flaming out in the 2nd round of the NCAAs

Thank God Mick Cronin is in and the days of thug ball should be over.

King
09-16-2006, 09:20 AM
The only thing keeping Bowen from being classified as a dirty player is his Spurs jersey. If he played anywhere else, and slapped Manu on defense, people would scream for his head.

Juwan Howard is public enemy #1 for his hard foul on DA - but Howard doesn't have near the rep that Bowen does for pushing the limit.

I love Bowen, I'm glad he's on the team - but open your eyes. He's a dirty player. But, he gets away with what he does - so he'd be stupid not to do it.

Zunni
09-16-2006, 09:24 AM
I noticed that too.. makes me think theres is some personal dislike in that article.
That would be Rosen's blatant dislike for all things Spurs...

Zunni
09-16-2006, 09:43 AM
The only thing keeping Bowen from being classified as a dirty player is his Spurs jersey. If he played anywhere else, and slapped Manu on defense, people would scream for his head.

Juwan Howard is public enemy #1 for his hard foul on DA - but Howard doesn't have near the rep that Bowen does for pushing the limit.

I love Bowen, I'm glad he's on the team - but open your eyes. He's a dirty player. But, he gets away with what he does - so he'd be stupid not to do it.
There's a difference between tough, aggressive, maybe bend the rules a bit defense, and dirty. "Dirty", to me, seeks to hurt or injure someone. Bowen does what 100% of NBA players do: grab, shove, handfight. What makes him better than most is the hours of game video he watches and breaks down that allows him to beat his man to a spot. If you can deny your man his favorite spot, the battle is half won already. Bruce probably knows every wing player in the league's favorite THREE spots, and he never quits. He'll race you from one, to another, to another. THAT'S why most players dislike him. He sells out on defense, gives his all.

ambchang
09-16-2006, 10:29 AM
Can't you see? The reason Bowen is still in the league at 35 (or 36?) years old with minimal offensive talent isn't because worked harder than everybody else to improve his defense year after year, it's simply because he's dirty. Teams love to pay dirty players with little to offer millions of $ a year so that they can just hang around, Team USA select dirty players to try out for their team because they want to intentionally hurt other players on the team during practices.
What a load of BS.

PM5K
09-16-2006, 12:45 PM
but Howard doesn't have near the rep that Bowen does for pushing the limit.

Are you talking about the same Juwan Howard who for his career has twice as many flagrant fouls, almost four times as many technicals, five times as many ejections, and almost twice as many player fouls as Bruce Bowen?

EDIT: And just for the record, I'd probably go with Danny Fortson, and if you can't distinguish between a guy like Fortson and a guy like Bowen, God help you...

Raja Bell has been trying to give Fortson a run for his money the past few years....

Kamnik
09-16-2006, 12:54 PM
So you , Bowen and me are playing the same type of game. :tu

pretty much same here as u guys

i play with friends with lots of hard fouls, really physical and crazy competitive for a bunch who onoly plays for fun and recreation

but noone out the 15-20 ppl doesnt mind or has anthying against it; we just watch out nobody gets hurt and everything is okay

King
09-16-2006, 05:14 PM
"Dirty", to me, seeks to hurt or injure someone. Bowen does what 100% of NBA players do: grab, shove, handfight.

Well, if that's your definition - then we agree. I don't think Bowen (nor any player) tries to intentionally injure another player. I just know Bowen slaps, and grabs, and holds, and does the little things that a lot of people consider dirty. That's where I say he's a 'dirty' player. And I enjoy the hell out of it.

I just think if he was on another team, people would hate him for the things he does to Manu.

Zunni
09-16-2006, 06:03 PM
I don't think Bowen (nor any player) tries to intentionally injure another player.
Raja Bell on Kobe in the playoffs. Danny Fortson almost any game. Karl Malone on Isaiah Thomas when he torched his butt-buddy Stockton for a ton of points after his Dream Team snub. There ARE cheap shot artists out there, and Bowen isn't one of them. They're the ones I consider dirty.

mavsfan1000
09-16-2006, 06:25 PM
Bowen isn't dirty. He is just irritating. There's a big difference.

td4mvp21
09-16-2006, 06:51 PM
The only thing keeping Bowen from being classified as a dirty player is his Spurs jersey. If he played anywhere else, and slapped Manu on defense, people would scream for his head.

Juwan Howard is public enemy #1 for his hard foul on DA - but Howard doesn't have near the rep that Bowen does for pushing the limit.

I love Bowen, I'm glad he's on the team - but open your eyes. He's a dirty player. But, he gets away with what he does - so he'd be stupid not to do it.

I disagree strongly, he is not dirty. Does he try to hurt players on purpose and play mean-spirited? Hell no. Look at him off the court, he's one very classy guy.

zero signal
09-16-2006, 07:10 PM
I disagree strongly, he is not dirty. Does he try to hurt players on purpose and play mean-spirited? Hell no. Look at him off the court, he's one very classy guy.

Agreed. It just depends on how people define dirty - if they think it means pushing, grabbing, elbowing, holding, getting in the way and otherwise pissing his assignment off, then yeah he's dirty.

Personally I think dirty means the malicious shit Malone and Laimbeer used to pull, and Bruce clearly isn't dirty in that regard.

Pistons < Spurs
09-16-2006, 07:17 PM
I don't consider Bowen dirty. As others have mentioned he has no desire to hurt anyone.

He just pushes the envelope of what you are allowed to do. He's feisty, aggressive and has no quit. He pisses people off by always being in their face and slapping at them.

He's only doing what the officials allow him to get away with ... just like every other single player in the league.

I do agree with one point someone else made ... if he was on another team, most of you would not love him or his skills any where near as much as you currently do. Your point of view would be very different, and you'd find yourself cussing him out everytime he played against you.


My question is, if you say it's not Bowen, then who would you say is the dirtiest player currently in the league?

Kori Ellis
09-16-2006, 07:47 PM
What's weird to me is that Rosen sets these guidelines ..


A distinction must be made between players who are rough and those who are downright dirty. Although those in the former category play physical, rock-'em-sock-'em basketball, they do so within the boundaries of certain accepted techniques having to do with appropriate placements for aggressive elbows, hip bumps and forearm thumps, plus the execution of deliberate fouls that are not career-threatening, and so on.

Players who are considered to be dirty, however, routinely overstep these boundaries and are more concerned with winning than with the possibility of their tactics inflicting serious injuries on their opponents.

To me, if you use those guidelines, then Bowen is only "rough" and not "dirty". He's never even come close to inflicting a career-threatening injury on anyone. (Vince Vagina's ankle sprain doesn't count.)

I think Bowen is definitely crafty, rough, tricky, etc. I think he pushes, pulls, elbows, etc. and that might define "dirty" by someone else. But Rosen laid out his own definition and then incorrectly (in my opinion) put Bowen in that category.

AdmiralMVP
09-21-2006, 06:58 PM
If Bowen is as dirty as some people believe, why doesn't he get called for fouls more often? Is he bribing the officials every season to look the other way? You'd think if he had the reputation of being dirty, that officials would keep a closer eye on him. Bowen is a great defender, not a "dirty" player.

RandomGuy
09-24-2006, 06:20 PM
Strange, he makes the distinction between rough and dirty and then totally misclassifies Bowen...

That is what I thought.

Dirty implies a guy who goes out and doesn't worry about injuring an opposing player. I have never seen Bowen deliberately do so.

Would Pop or Duncan stand for such a thing if he did?

No F***ING WAY!!

This "analyst" is an asshat.

He is just parroting what he has heard elsewhere without actually bothering to find out the truth. GRRRRRRRRR :nutkick:

BeerIsGood!
09-24-2006, 06:42 PM
Something tells me that if Bowen was truly a dirty player Bonzi Wells would have been mysteriously suffering a torn MCL or broken ankle or deep thigh bruise after game 3 or 4 of the 1st round playoff series. If a dirty player is getting out played the dirty player goes for the opponents joints, throat, etc. A dirty player also intentionally makes aggressive contact with an opponents knees, neck, etc. out of anger. I've seen Kobe strike a player in the throat out of anger. I've never seen Bowen go for these vulnerable areas on anyone at any time.

LilMissSPURfect
09-25-2006, 10:48 AM
I applaud Bruce for his tenacity on defense...If he was on the Mavs, Lakers or any other team I would demand a RASHO for BRUCE trade immediately! He's the LOVE to HATE guy we all want on our team!!!

TDMVPDPOY
09-25-2006, 11:54 AM
how come karl malone is not mention?