Jesus Camp

[Nbadan]

Speaking in tongues, weeping for salvation, praying for an end to abortion and worshipping a picture of President Bush -- these are some of the activities at Pastor Becky Fischer's Bible camp in North Dakota, "Kids on Fire," subject of the provocative new documentary, "Jesus Camp."

"I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are in Palestine, Pakistan and all those different places," Fisher said. "Because, excuse me, we have the truth."

"A lot of people die for God," one camper said, "and they're not afraid."

"We're kinda being trained to be warriors," said another, "only in a funner way."

ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/print?id=2455343)

Check out these 'holy warriors' in their crusade to take back America and the world for Christ...

Jesus Camp Movie the trailer (http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/)

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

If its worshipping George Bush then its a cult.

Christians shouldnt worship anything but God, the bible makes it very clear

If they distort the truth then its rubbish but it could be that the article is incorrect about the whole worshipping bush thing.

[Nbadan]

If they distort the truth then its rubbish but it could be that the article is incorrect about the whole worshipping bush thing.

I suspect that the movie will clear up any of your doubts that they worship an image of Bush43.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Im all for growing kids in the way that God wants us to live but having them go crazy coz of emotion is not a healthy thing. Following God is a choice and its a daily choice you have to make.

The trailer showed these kids full of emotion and didnt show any real teahcing or discipleship. People who think of christianity as a constant emotional high suddenly get dissappointed. They usually end up turning their back on God during the hard times coz they think its bad when they arent 'on a high emotionally'

Sure, Kids can make choices for Christ but it needs to be a lifelong choice and they should be discipled by friends and family.

Sorry, im just skeptical of anything that looks built on pure emotion. Thats what the trailer made it look like but the whole movie may shed a different light.

The whole 'us' against 'them' attitude isnt healthy either.

[Nbadan]

Watch the video clip on this ABC link (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2455343&page=1). It shows the Kids worshipping a life-size Bush cut-out

[ChumpDumper]

Anything that makes dying funner is probably a good idea at this point.

[jochhejaam]

I suspect that the movie will clear up any of your doubts that they worship an image of Bush43.

The film has caused a split among evangelicals. Some say it's designed to demonize. Others have embraced it,
Other than the Harris editorial comment I didn't see anything about worshipping Bush.
If there was Bush worshipping going on I don't believe it would get more than .01% of support from evangelicals. (that would be those that make up the lunatic fringe that are in total disconnect with the teachings of Christ).

Being passionate > being apathetic. Impassioned is how Christ lived his life.

[Mr. Peabody]

Anything that makes dying funner is probably a good idea at this point.

:lol

[Spurminator]

Watch the video clip on this ABC link (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2455343&page=1). It shows the Kids worshipping a life-size Bush cut-out

Watch it again. The video says kids are worshipping "to" a cutout of Bush... so either the article or the video is wrong, and I'm leaning towards the less sinister option in this case.

Worshipping "to" a cutout of President Bush is not the same as worshipping President Bush. That would be like equating the presence of an American flag in a church to worshipping that flag.

Now I will say it's a bit odd to have a cutout of the President in a worship assembly. I would definitely have a problem with any political indoctrination being associated with worship. I went to several conservative Church Camps growing up, and I was never told what to believe about abortion or homosexuality. We were there for worship, Bible study, and fellowship among Christian peers.

I would imagine a documentary could have been made about our experiences at those camps as well, and I'm sure some moments would look strange to outsiders. But the result of those weeks I spent at camp was a spiritual rejuvenation like I've never experienced since. It would be a shame if that potential was being exploited in an attempt to create little Theocrats.

But I'll see the movie before making assumptions based on an article and video that don't even agree with each other.

[ChumpDumper]

I didn't feel like starting a new thread, but John Hagee is going to be on Fresh Air talking about his new Christians United group. It airs at 11AM in SA and will be archived on npr.org. Should be interesting.

[Extra Stout]

Being passionate > being apathetic. Impassioned is how Christ lived his life.
False dichotomy. Christ also lived his life grounded in truth.

[cheguevara]

remember when good german christians would worship this image?
http://3mpub.com/rhodes/images/hitler%20spy%20web.jpg

[jochhejaam]

False dichotomy. Christ also lived his life grounded in truth.
I assumed that went without saying.
Guess not.

[Extra Stout]

I assumed that went without saying.
Guess not.


The trailer showed these kids full of emotion and didnt show any real teahcing or discipleship.

A chronic problem among charismatics.

[leemajors]

i saw the trailer for this on tv the other day, it looked pretty spooky. not sure if it's the same trailer, but it was kinda a 3-5 minute preview of the movie - bucktoothed kids saying non-christians make them shudder.

[Ya Vez]

who cares it's a stupid movie...

[101A]

remember when good german christians would worship this image?
http://3mpub.com/rhodes/images/hitler%20spy%20web.jpg



How about everybody agree to stop calling people with opposing views Nazis? Adolf Hitler and the German Nazi Party of the '30's and '40's were a personfication of evil quite possibly un-matched in human history. To equate those beliefs with people you debate on this board is an uncalled for insult to that person, an overreaching slander against our president or other politician or leader, and a diminution of the sacrifice miliions of people made to end his reign. It should be out of bounds for discussion here.

[Extra Stout]

remember when good german christians would worship this image?
http://3mpub.com/rhodes/images/hitler%20spy%20web.jpg
No, but I remember when good German Christians were martyred by the Nazis for daring to oppose Hitler.

Thanks for annihilating your own credibility!

[Nbadan]

No, but I remember when good German Christians were martyred by the Nazis for daring to oppose Hitler.

The fact remains that the Nazi Regime also wrapped itself around religion, not that they were good or bad christians, which we all know, they were bad. Just that they malipulated some people's faith.

[RandomGuy]

Heh, a new take on the "what would Jesus do?" bit.

(mental image of Jesus eating smores and telling ghost stories)

I betcha those would be some darn tasty smores.

[RandomGuy]

Watch it again. The video says kids are worshipping "to" a cutout of Bush... so either the article or the video is wrong, and I'm leaning towards the less sinister option in this case.

Worshipping "to" a cutout of President Bush is not the same as worshipping President Bush. That would be like equating the presence of an American flag in a church to worshipping that flag.

Now I will say it's a bit odd to have a cutout of the President in a worship assembly. I would definitely have a problem with any political indoctrination being associated with worship. I went to several conservative Church Camps growing up, and I was never told what to believe about abortion or homosexuality. We were there for worship, Bible study, and fellowship among Christian peers.



Blind faith in Bush on the part of some would explain a lot... :drunk

[Phenomanul]

The actual article is actually quite biased....




Film Shows Youths Training to Fight for Jesus
New Documentary Features Controversial Bible Camp, Evangelical Movement
By DAN HARRIS
Sept. 17, 2006 — - An in-your-face documentary out this weekend is raising eyebrows, raising hackles and raising questions about evangelizing to young people.

Speaking in tongues, weeping for salvation, praying for an end to abortion and worshipping a picture of President Bush -- these are some of the activities at Pastor Becky Fischer's Bible camp in North Dakota, "Kids on Fire," subject of the provocative new documentary, "Jesus Camp."

"I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are in Palestine, Pakistan and all those different places," Fisher said. "Because, excuse me, we have the truth."

"A lot of people die for God," one camper said, "and they're not afraid."

"We're kinda being trained to be warriors," said another, "only in a funner way."

The film has caused a split among evangelicals. Some say it's designed to demonize. Others have embraced it, including Fischer, who's helping promote the film.

"I never felt at any point that I was exploited," Fischer said.

"I think there is a push right now in a lot of evangelical churches to definitely keep the teenagers and keep the children in the faith," said Heidi Ewing, co-director of "Jesus Camp." "And this is one version of that attempt."


A Growing Movement

This camp is, by many accounts, a small -- and perhaps extreme -- slice of what some say is a growing, intensifying evangelical youth movement.

Over the past decade and a half, enrollment at Christian colleges is up 70 percent. Sales of Christian music are up 300 percent. Tens of thousands of youth pastors have been trained.

Young people are targeted through Christian music festivals, skateboard competitions and rodeos.

"This is an enormous youth movement," said Lauren Sandler, a secular, liberal feminist from New York City who spent months among the believers researching her new book, "Righteous."

Sandler says the evangelical youth movement will have a negative impact on the country's future, because even the most moderate young evangelicals are inflexible on issues such as abortion and gay marriage.

"It's an absolute, straight-up us-against-them," Sandler said. "It's, you're either with us or you're against us. … Not only are you a sinner, but you are working for the enemy -- the enemy being Satan."

Chap Clark, an associate professor at the Fuller Theological Seminary who's trained youth pastors for decades, said people who see "Jesus Camp" should not come away with the idea that evangelizing to youth consists mainly of political indoctrination.

Clark said youth pastors focus much more on providing meaning to kids who can't find it in a materialistic culture or in their family lives -- "which is going to translate into much healthier adults who are more able to be into respectful dialogue and come alongside people who disagree with them.

"I think this is a very hopeful time because of the youth ministry movement," he added.

There's disagreement about whether this movement is good for the country and whether the movie is an accurate portrayal of the movement.

But there's growing agreement that these children will have a real impact. One child in "Jesus Camp" goes so far as to say, "We're a key generation to bringing Jesus back."



I guess only she is allowed to make absolutist statements.

[Nbadan]

"It's an absolute, straight-up us-against-them," Sandler said. "It's, you're either with us or you're against us. … Not only are you a sinner, but you are working for the enemy -- the enemy being Satan."

So there is flexibility on social issues like abortion and gay-marriage from evangelicals? I thought so.

[Extra Stout]

So there is flexibility on social issues like abortion and gay-marriage from evangelicals? I thought so.
Sure, every person opposed to abortion or gay marriage regards those with differing opinions as Satan! That's not a hyperbolic misrepresentation at all!

[Extra Stout]

I'm so glad that secular, liberal feminists are around to inform us that having political positions based upon morals and ethics grounded in religious faith makes us mouth-breathing theocrats! I don't know why I was ever concerned that a lot of liberals take "freedom of religion" to mean "elimination of any and all religious influence from any facet of public discourse!"

And I'm so glad such accuracy in that full article! Because we all know that the most extreme elements of a movement can be conflated with the entire movement. All Christian youth groups are the same as one in North Dakota that may be worshipping around a cutout of George W. Bush!

Just like everybody left of center is exactly the same as Joseph Stalin!

[Phenomanul]

So there is flexibility on social issues like abortion and gay-marriage from evangelicals? I thought so.


Her claim was prejudiced... The Bible opposes abortion and homosexuality. We as Christians, however, are taught to embrace the sinner. Shoot... we're all sinners and all need GOD; we are not placed above anybody else. The point was that she was denouncing dogma... and then she ended up spewing dogma of her own.

[Nbadan]

Sure, every person opposed to abortion or gay marriage regards those with differing opinions as Satan! That's not a hyperbolic misrepresentation at all!

The article doesn't say every person, it says every evangelical.

[Extra Stout]

The article doesn't say every person, it says every evangelical.
Oh, OK, that makes it much more reasonable!

[Nbadan]

All Christian youth groups are the same as one in North Dakota that may be worshipping around a cutout of George W. Bush!

Sure, and statues of Mary are just statues.

[Nbadan]

Her claim was prejudiced... The Bible opposes abortion and homosexuality. We as Christians, however, are taught to embrace the sinner. Shoot... we're all sinners and all need GOD; we are not placed above anybody else.

Some Evangelicals would disagree with you.

[Nbadan]

Oh, OK, that makes it much more reasonable!

Reasonable or not, it makes it much more likely. I'm sure if we did a study, there would be a strong statistical correlation.

[Extra Stout]

Sure, and statues of Mary are just statues.
???

Sometimes you have a really hard time making yourself understood.

I'm left to guess your point...

A) "A lot of Catholics revere/beatify/worship the Virgin Mary, so there is precedent for Christians to worship humans, and so worshipping George W. Bush may actually be common."

No, it is not common whatsoever. I've heard of extremists saying that George W. Bush is the President God wants in the White House. I have never heard or seen anyone claiming that Bush is supposed to be worshipped. The reverence of Mary, with which essentially all Protestants disagree, is tied to her being the "mother of God" and is grounded in well over a millenium of Catholic tradition.

Good luck finding so much as one reference to a Christian exposition claiming GWB to be an object of worship.

B) "Don't act as if those kids in North Dakota aren't in fact worshipping George W. Bush! Catholics worship the Virgin Mary, don't they!"

They may well be doing so, but it is heresy, and an extremely rare one at that. It certainly cannot be conflated to evangelical Christians in general.

[Extra Stout]

Reasonable or not, it makes it much more likely. I'm sure if we did a study, there would be a strong statistical correlation.
There would be a strong correlation to opposition to abortion and gay marriage.

Your claim that all evangelicals, or a vast majority of them, believe that people who are pro-choice, or who support gay rights, are actively working for Satan, is baseless.

[Phenomanul]

Some Evangelicals would disagree with you.


Christ embraced the 'sinners' of His time... why wouldn't we?

[Nbadan]

Your claim that all evangelicals, or a vast majority of them, believe that people who are pro-choice, or who support gay rights, are actively working for Satan, is baseless.

Well, not working for Satan, just not following the teachings of Jesus Christ. You know, heretics.

[Extra Stout]

Well, not working for Satan, just not following the teachings of Jesus Christ. You know, heretics.
A heretic is somebody who teaches falsely about Christianity, not somebody that chooses not to follow it.

But hey, keep up with the baseless negative stereotypes about Christians. I've heard that called bigotry before, but we all know enlightened liberals can't be bigots because they are so enlightened.

[Yonivore]

Christ embraced the 'sinners' of His time... why wouldn't we?
And they all immediately repented. I think we'd do more embracing if this were a possiblity.

Not saying that it isn't but, centuries of having Christian missionaries killed for their beliefs has kind of put a damper on the whole love your enemies meme.

[smeagol]

Danny boy, Catholics do not worship the Virgin Mary.

[jochhejaam]

A chronic problem among charismatics.
Because my three sentence post was void of teaching and discipleship in that it didn't include that Christ's teaching is "grounded in truth", I'm associated with a chronic problem you've diagnosed among charasmatics?

Terribly presumptuous if that's the case.

[Nbadan]

There would be a strong correlation to opposition to abortion and gay marriage.

Your claim that all evangelicals, or a vast majority of them, believe that people who are pro-choice, or who support gay rights, are actively working for Satan, is baseless.

Not working for Satan, but certainly not choosing to follow the Catholic version of the interpretation of the life of Jesus Christ.

[Nbadan]

But hey, keep up with the baseless negative stereotypes about Christians. I've heard that called bigotry before, but we all know enlightened liberals can't be bigots because they are so enlightened

Well, if you want to play the bigot card then this conversation isn't going to go very far. Ultimately, it's not what liberals think about evangelicals anyway, but how evangelical-based policy is as inflexible when it's used as a bases in policy by the U.S. government as it is in the Taliban-based government is in Afghanistan, and Shiia-based Government in Iraq.

If that's being a bigot then label me guilty.

[Extra Stout]

Because my three sentence post was void of teaching and discipleship in that it didn't include that Christ's teaching is "grounded in truth", I'm associated with a chronic problem you've diagnosed among charasmatics?

Terribly presumptuous if that's the case.
Had nothing to do with you, really. I was just pointing out that religious passion by itself doesn't accomplish much unless it is grounded in truth, and that passionate worship unadhered to Scripture is a problem in the charismatic movement.

I've had more than one heated discussion with a Word-O'-Faither wherein that person claimed because some people aren't rolling on the floors and crying and raising their arms during worship, they really just aren't passionate about God, and I proceeded to point out key deviations from Scripture in that person's belief system.

I in no way think that is a problem you are having.

[Extra Stout]

Well, if you want to play the bigot card then this conversation isn't going to go very far. Ultimately, it's not what liberals think about evangelicals anyway, but how evangelical-based policy is as inflexible when it's used as a bases in policy by the U.S. government as it is in the Taliban-based government is in Afghanistan, and Shiia-based Government in Iraq.

If that's being a bigot then label me guilty.
Does flexibility to you mean "willing to capitulate to the other side," or does it mean "willing to work with the other side?"

If people disagree on a policy, they disagree on a policy.

If you think evangelicals are so inflexible that they wouldn't work with liberals to provide services to women so that they can find alternatives to abortion, I think you'd be wrong. If you think that evangelicals are so inflexible that they wouldn't even be open to the idea of cohabitating homosexual couples receiving certain civil benefits, again, I think you'd be wrong (even the President you hate is on board with that!).

[RandomGuy]

Well, not working for Satan, just not following the teachings of Jesus Christ. You know, heretics.

Heh, ask what the Roman Catholic church thinks of protestants... :angel

All christians are heretics depending on who you ask.

[Extra Stout]

Heh, ask what the Roman Catholic church thinks of protestants... :angel

All christians are heretics depending on who you ask.
I think the language is something about "impaired fellowship" with God rather than calling us outright heretics.

There are some fundies who call Catholics heretics.

But, by and large, the ecumenical movement is doing pretty well in the U.S. After all, we have to stick together against all those godless heathen secular liberals working hard for Satan.

[101A]

I think the language is something about "impaired fellowship" with God rather than calling us outright heretics.

There are some fundies who call Catholics heretics.

But, by and large, the ecumenical movement is doing pretty well in the U.S. After all, we have to stick together against all those godless heathen secular liberals working hard for Satan.


Amen, brother.

[Nbadan]

Full-length Jesus Camp posted on Google Video.

Jesus Camp (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=540711215076926555&q=jesus+camp)

[ChumpDumper]

islamictorrents.net?

[MannyIsGod]

I didn't realize there was a thread about this but Jess and I saw it awhile back. It was pretty weird how the lady flat out admitted to indoctrination of the children. The camp was flat out insane. It wasn't really eye opening or anything, but it was pretty crazy.

The best scene in the movie - which made it more than worth the price of admission - was the one where Haggard looks right into the camera and says "I know what you did last night!". The entire theater cracked up. Its decent as far as documentaries go.

[Phenomanul]

Extremists....

[ChumpDumper]

Why is the morbidly obese lady talking about fasting?

[MannyIsGod]

Extremists....Indeed. I don't think its very representative of many Christians. However, I think it is a fair representation of what hard core evangelical followers believe and think. These mega churches don't get that way because everyone doesn't believe what is being said.

I did mention to Jess that that what wenton there was NOTHING like my CCD classes.

[sandman]

the definition of "hard core evangelicals" is subjective at best. To some on here, the fact that I am a Baptist and display my faith publicly makes me a hard core evangelical, maybe even an extreme radical to some. Considering the fact that there are over 16 million Southern Baptists alone, it is gross misrepresentation to state that this video is representative of the majority of evangelicals.

Of course, the same ones that argue that this video is representative of the majority of evangelicals will vociferously oppose that same argument against radical Muslims.

[turambar85]

the definition of "hard core evangelicals" is subjective at best. To some on here, the fact that I am a Baptist and display my faith publicly makes me a hard core evangelical, maybe even an extreme radical to some. Considering the fact that there are over 16 million Southern Baptists alone, it is gross misrepresentation to state that this video is representative of the majority of evangelicals.

Of course, the same ones that argue that this video is representative of the majority of evangelicals will vociferously oppose that same argument against radical Muslims.

Amen. The same percent of Christians push the envelope as do Muslims.

The one difference is that we have seperation of church and state, and have secular laws and teachings. If you switched religions from Iran and the United States, but kept the same laws and societal mores, then the Christians would be the Muslims, and the Muslims the Christians.

People should stop pointing fingers at one if they refuse to hear the same about the others.

[PixelPusher]

Why is the morbidly obese lady talking about fasting?

:lmao

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/5/5a/180px-311_sallys.jpeg

[turambar85]

catholicism
protestants
jews/muslims
other monotheists
------------->have a good chance of entering catholic heaven if good people
hindus

-------------Juries still out
atheist buddhists
atheists
----------no chance

LoL, I love it.

I just have a hard time believing that admittance to Heaven is based on belief in God for two reasons, and they both have to do with God's all-loving quality.

1. If God is all-loving, then that means that God has nothing but self-less love for others. To base salvation on worship and acknowledgment is very base and egomaniacal. This contradicts the all-loving claim by introducing a selfish "worship me or burn" claim by God.

2. If God is all-loving, then salvation couldnt be contingent on having heard of God, or having been one of the few to have experienced God. If born a Muslim, you are very likely to die a Muslim. If born a Christian, most likely to die Christian. Thus, God is basing salvation on something that you have very little to do with. This is not all-loving in that we lose our free-will in gaining admittance to Heaven, and have no free-will as to which situation we are born into, yet pay all the penalties (hell) of free-will.

I believe that Heaven is based on the goodness of your actions, and your ability to put other people before yourself.

God created mankind in his image, and, from a Christian view, this image was spoiled with the selfish, evil acts of Adam and Eve. To be in God's image is to act selflessly and lovingly, not just simple falling to your knees to worship. And to be in God's image again is to make God's guest list.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Her claim was prejudiced... The Bible opposes abortion and homosexuality. We as Christians, however, are taught to embrace the sinner. Shoot... we're all sinners and all need GOD; we are not placed above anybody else. The point was that she was denouncing dogma... and then she ended up spewing dogma of her own.

Pray tell, what versus does the bible make mention of Homosexuality and or abortion?

[sandman]

Pray tell, what versus does the bible make mention of Homosexuality and or abortion?

the Bible does not specifically mention internet porn or cocaine, but both are addictive and morally, socially and spiritually destructive. The Bible espouses PRINCIPLES that can be applied to our lives without the use of specific and direct edicts that are for/against everything that we encounter in our day and age.

Oh, as far as the Scritpure for homosexuality, you want Old Testament?

Read the story of Lot in Genesis. There is a reason they are called sodomy laws.

or New Testament?

Try reading the last half of Romans chapter 1. It's fairly specific.

As far as abortion goes, I challenge you to find one Biblical principle that would not be in conflict with abortion.

[DarkReign]

Pray tell, what versus does the bible make mention of Homosexuality and or abortion?

I am no bible student, but I was screwing around once at work and found a former coworkers hand-size Bible. I started reading it out of sheer boredom and found the "God hates homosexuals" passage almost immediately.

It was really, really strange. I believe it is in Romans and goes a little like..

"..and those men who lay with men are [sic] against God"

...something or other. Its actually very, very clear and not much room for interpretation if youre a bible-thumping, hate monger.

Me, I could give two-shits what the Bible says. Faith in God is one thing, faith in humanity is entirely another.

[DarkReign]

Holy hell, we must have been writing at the same time.

[Phenomanul]

LoL, I love it.

I just have a hard time believing that admittance to Heaven is based on belief in God for two reasons, and they both have to do with God's all-loving quality.

1. If God is all-loving, then that means that God has nothing but self-less love for others. To base salvation on worship and acknowledgment is very base and egomaniacal. This contradicts the all-loving claim by introducing a selfish "worship me or burn" claim by God.

Yes, GOD is LOVE, but he is also HOLY and JUST. His presence cannot be defiled by sin or tainted by unholiness. Hell will be the place of eternal separation from GOD, sin will be cast out from creation and sent to Hell precisely because of the fact that GOD is HOLY.

Furthermore, salvation is not based solely on the belief in GOD but rather upon embracing the redeeming role of JESUS. Consider this; Satan and his minions believe in GOD, yet their eternal fate has been sealed in the lake of fire - they will not be 'saved'.

In other words, those who reject the message of JESUS will not be saved. You may find that to be exclusive, and frankly... it is. Some things have to be defined in black and white.... And unlike everthing in our 'Politically Correct' world... not everything has to be gray.



2. If God is all-loving, then salvation couldnt be contingent on having heard of God, or having been one of the few to have experienced God. If born a Muslim, you are very likely to die a Muslim. If born a Christian, most likely to die Christian. Thus, God is basing salvation on something that you have very little to do with. This is not all-loving in that we lose our free-will in gaining admittance to Heaven, and have no free-will as to which situation we are born into, yet pay all the penalties (hell) of free-will.

It's a good point, but if you read Romans Chapter 1... it says that "men are without excuse". Those who choose to reject the message of JESUS do so out of their own stubborness, convenience or hatred. Some people believe that those who earnestly never had a chance of making said decision during their time here on earth, will in fact have an extra opportunity to accept/reject the message of JESUS... To outline the specifics of such circumstances would be speculation on my part however.



I believe that Heaven is based on the goodness of your actions, and your ability to put other people before yourself.

A tad bit subjective don't you think.



God created mankind in his image, and, from a Christian view, this image was spoiled with the selfish, evil acts of Adam and Eve. To be in God's image is to act selflessly and lovingly, not just simple falling to your knees to worship. And to be in God's image again is to make God's guest list.

We were created to fulfill a purpose... for GOD's glory. Obedience then, is one of the quintessential forms of worship because it openly embraces our subservience to the King of Kings. Those who reject GOD, however, fail to acknowledge this order and ultimately fall out of GOD's Grace. A common error is that people don't really understand what worship really means.

[Phenomanul]

Pray tell, what versus does the bible make mention of Homosexuality and or abortion?


Read Romans Chapter 1.

Edit: Already mentioned.....

[sandman]

I am no bible student, but I was screwing around once at work and found a former coworkers hand-size Bible. I started reading it out of sheer boredom and found the "God hates homosexuals" passage almost immediately.

It was really, really strange. I believe it is in Romans and goes a little like..

"..and those men who lay with men are [sic] against God"

...something or other. Its actually very, very clear and not much room for interpretation if youre a bible-thumping, hate monger.

Me, I could give two-shits what the Bible says. Faith in God is one thing, faith in humanity is entirely another.

Not everyone who has a Bible and holds to the teachings therein is a Bible-thumping hate-monger.

I would be confident that the Koran holds the same view as the Bible, and probably with much greater consequences.

[sandman]

Read Romans Chapter 1.

Exactly.

Starting with verse 18, it takes a step by step look at a holy amd righteous God, man as a whole that recognizes through His creation and the cognizance of his own soul (the spirit within) that there is a God, that man lifts himself as the created above the Creator and in doing so thinks himself enlightened yet is a fool, refuses to recognize God and proceeds to spiral down into a litany of base behaviors that directly oppose the holiness and righteousness of God and His intended creation. Very logical and straightforward.

I am not sure how anyone can argue FROM THE BIBLE that God does not have a specific viewpoint regarding homosexuality.

[DarkReign]

Not everyone who has a Bible and holds to the teachings therein is a Bible-thumping hate-monger.

I would be confident that the Koran holds the same view as the Bible, and probably with much greater consequences.

Not too concerned with the Koran, or any other religious text. This was a discussion about the Bible.

I have faith in God, sure. I have no such respect for churches created by man. Those same churches were founded on a molested text crafted in such a way to emit power and prejudice.

The very foundations of the religious are schewed not by ignorance or sin, but by having faith not in God, but in a book. Those who tower the Bible/Koran/whatever as something of significance are nothing more than populists conforming to the status quo of their societal/tribal pressures.

A unique tool that has been responsible (almost singlehandedly) for bringing civilization to the point we stand now. I have no delusions when it comes to weighing the positives/negatives of those religious documents. Their good has far, far outweighed the negatives.

But just to instill blind faith based on the past accomplishments of religion is to deny your humanity, imo. I am not advocating that religion, as a whole, is evil or whatever. Just that this constant touting of the Bible as some sort of relevant scripture that was written by God in our current state of being is....foolhardy.

By no means do I say, forget the past. Grievous error, indeed. But that with the perspective we now hold of our predecessors, our insight into the ways of the universe, the rapid exchange of information, our technology far outreaching our morality, the absolute revolution of lifestyle in the most historic century in all of time, thumping a book supposedly written by God based on no other evidence than the words of a fallible human seems absurd.

The morality taught in the Bible are good things, no question. But not at the expense of logic, science, observation and verifiable, empirical evidence to the contrary.

To be blunt, the only reason people to this day believe Jesus was the son of God in the western world is because you were told he was from the day you were born. Faith in God (or a higher power) does not require faith in the Bible/Koran/etc. Having faith in the Bible/Koran as holy law signifies nothing to me except accepted ignorance, the inability to question accepted authority and the need to feel connected in some special way with others thru the similar worship of a chosen deity.

[sandman]

Dark Reign,

Your opinions brush with very broad strokes (blind/foolhardy/absurd/ignorance), but I respect your right to your opinion based on your personal experiences.

[DarkReign]

Dark Reign,

Your opinions brush with very broad strokes (blind/foolhardy/absurd/ignorance), but I respect your right to your opinion based on your personal experiences.

Things such as this are hard to put a fine point on. I dont think less of a religious individual, I think less of the religious masses.

[101A]

Things such as this are hard to put a fine point on. I dont think less of a religious individual, I think less of the religious masses.


DR,

So, essentially, you're an agnostic? Believe in god but not in any one religion?

[DarkReign]

DR,

So, essentially, you're an agnostic? Believe in god but not in any one religion?

Sure, agnostic sounds like a fitting label, if youre into that.

Religion, as I define it, is a machination of man, not God.

According to religious doctrine, God is an egotist with high demands of wage and worship.

[Phenomanul]

Sure, agnostic sounds like a fitting label, if youre into that.

Religion, as I define it, is a machination of man, not God.

According to religious doctrine, God is an egotist with high demands of wage and worship.


Again, it comes down to the fact that people (many Christians included) don't understand the true meaning of worship....

[clambake]

The problem is not God, it's religious establishment. Watch what happens when a religious leaders influence is challanged or ultimately threatened. The devil will emerge.

[xrayzebra]

Clam, do you include Rev. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton in your statements?

[clambake]

Of course.

[sandman]

The problem is not God, it's religious establishment. Watch what happens when a religious leaders influence is challanged or ultimately threatened. The devil will emerge.

Define a religious leader? A local minister? Televangelist who has a national following? Head of a denomination or convention?

What is a challenge or threat? To their core beliefs? To their alledged "spiritual fiefdoms" that they created? The power of their influence over other influential people?

C'mon, I understand that these statements are opinions, but they are starting to really get arbitrary at this point. Broad brush indeed.

[2centsworth]

Amen. The same percent of Christians push the envelope as do Muslims.

Link?

[sandman]

the sodomites were bad hosts and so were destroyed, not because they were gay

Intriguing. Care to expound?

[DarkReign]

Define a religious leader? A local minister? Televangelist who has a national following? Head of a denomination or convention?

What is a challenge or threat? To their core beliefs? To their alledged "spiritual fiefdoms" that they created? The power of their influence over other influential people?

Bingo. Once upon a time the church ran everything in western society, very similar to (if not moreso) how Islam dictates everything in middle eastern culture today.

The lust for power knows not the limits of piety.


C'mon, I understand that these statements are opinions, but they are starting to really get arbitrary at this point. Broad brush indeed.

Of course theyre broadbrush, they have to be. The need or usefulness of a bloated church and belief system have long since lost its relevance. I dont mean to suggest that humanity do away entirely of religion, but I do mean that humanity should rank its importance far below government, civil service, family and general welfare.

Its very structure and former glories are relics better suited to history books than frontpage tabloidism.

[xrayzebra]

Bingo. Once upon a time the church ran everything in western society, very similar to (if not moreso) how Islam dictates everything in middle eastern culture today.

The lust for power knows not the limits of piety.



Of course theyre broadbrush, they have to be. The need or usefulness of a bloated church and belief system have long since lost its relevance. I dont mean to suggest that humanity do away entirely of religion, but I do mean that humanity should rank its importance far below government, civil service, family and general welfare.

Its very structure and former glories are relics better suited to history books than frontpage tabloidism.


It was called the "dark ages".

[Phenomanul]

Bingo. Once upon a time the church ran everything in western society, very similar to (if not moreso) how Islam dictates everything in middle eastern culture today.

The lust for power knows not the limits of piety.



Of course theyre broadbrush, they have to be. The need or usefulness of a bloated church and belief system have long since lost its relevance. I dont mean to suggest that humanity do away entirely of religion, but I do mean that humanity should rank its importance far below government, civil service, family and general welfare.

Its very structure and former glories are relics better suited to history books than frontpage tabloidism.

That explains part of your dissention.... Religion and spirituallity are two different things. Religion is a wholly humanistic creation. A spiritual bond with GOD, however, is not; it is a divinely sanctioned priviledge that GOD himself extends to any and all who will listen and accept. A spiritually receptive connection with GOD was ordained by the Creator himself; established out of GOD's love for humanity. It is in our nature to seek out truth - guess who placed that desire in the very fabric of our being?

GOD is the full manifestation of absolute TRUTH; when we genuinely seek TRUTH that path should always lead us to GOD. Unfortunately, men foolishly place their own wisdom above GOD's and in doing so, they reject the TRUTH.

Again, people who see themselves as religious see their 'religiousness' as facet of their life... you are right in exposing their inherent hypocrisy... Genuine spirituallity, on the other hand, is a way of life. It is manifested by a person's attitudes, by their show of restraint, by their service, by their integrity, by their love for others - if a person is truly being led by the Holy Spirit one will see these characteristics and attributes manifested in each and every relationship that is nurtured by that person.

Granted of course that people need to realize that no one is perfect; some simply seek to justify their own actions by pointing out the imperfections of those around them. These people usually end up bitter in the end.

[DarkReign]

You and I have reached an absolute agreement. I couldnt agree with your post anymore than I already do. I should have dilineated spirtuality and religion myself, but I dont think I could have put a finer point on it than you did.

:tu

[sandman]

Bingo. Once upon a time the church ran everything in western society, very similar to (if not moreso) how Islam dictates everything in middle eastern culture today.

The lust for power knows not the limits of piety.



Of course theyre broadbrush, they have to be. The need or usefulness of a bloated church and belief system have long since lost its relevance. I dont mean to suggest that humanity do away entirely of religion, but I do mean that humanity should rank its importance far below government, civil service, family and general welfare.

Its very structure and former glories are relics better suited to history books than frontpage tabloidism.

If you don't necessarily have issues with a religious individual, where do you draw the line? I can be religious, but it is a bloated religious system if I choose to locally congregate with a few others who share my same belief system? Or is it only at the denominational or religion level that it is bloated, outdated and self-serving? Is individual worship the only acceptable method of religion?

EDIT: I wholeheartedly agree with the exchange between you and Phenomanul. I just had this in preview mode for a while as I stepped away and did not see your posts.

[clambake]

That was near perfect, Phenomanul.

However, that still will not protect the pawns of sacrifice from the mixture of politics and religion. Mortal man has a goal that's self-serving. It's how to stay on top of the wake of the dying.

[sandman]

That was near perfect, Phenomanul.

However, that still will not protect the pawns of sacrifice from the mixture of politics and religion. Mortal man has a goal that's self-serving. It's how to stay on top of the wake of the dying.

A very valid point. Once you separate people of faith from people of religion, it is easy to see how the trappings of religion has played into that self-serving nature of man.

[turambar85]

Yes, GOD is LOVE, but he is also HOLY and JUST. His presence cannot be defiled by sin or tainted by unholiness. Hell will be the place of eternal separation from GOD, sin will be cast out from creation and sent to Hell precisely because of the fact that GOD is HOLY.

Then, as stated, make hell for people who are bad, sinful people, and heaven for people who are not. Whether or not you have heard of God, or sent her a Christmas card should not be important.


Furthermore, salvation is not based solely on the belief in GOD but rather upon embracing the redeeming role of JESUS. Consider this; Satan and his minions believe in GOD, yet their eternal fate has been sealed in the lake of fire - they will not be 'saved'.

Even more narrow in definition and egomaniacal. They believed in God, but were evil and wicked minded. If they had believed in God, yet had been solid little God-ites, they would have remained. This is further proof for my belief that the Bible has been distorted by translators to strengthen the church, but that the original meaning would suggest that good people go, not idol-worshippers. And yes, I believe every-1 who worships God, yet thinks "he" is a "he" with male anatomical parts is worshipping a false idol, as that is anthropromorphism, applying man-like atttributes to the supreme deity.


In other words, those who reject the message of JESUS will not be saved. You may find that to be exclusive, and frankly... it is. Some things have to be defined in black and white.... And unlike everthing in our 'Politically Correct' world... not everything has to be gray.

It would be black and white. All those who try to follow the teachings of Christ, or Ghandi even, and remain good people go to Heaven. God is a big "boy", "he/she" can handle it.




It's a good point, but if you read Romans Chapter 1... it says that "men are without excuse". Those who choose to reject the message of JESUS do so out of their own stubborness, convenience or hatred. Some people believe that those who earnestly never had a chance of making said decision during their time here on earth, will in fact have an extra opportunity to accept/reject the message of JESUS... To outline the specifics of such circumstances would be speculation on my part however.

No, see I don't buy Romans, or epeleptic Paul who wrote it. It is not stubborness. If you heard of Allah and Mohammed, do you reject because you are stubborn and refuse to believe the truth? No! You do so because you have seen the Christian light. Well, that believe in their religion every bit as strongly as you do, so you can't blame them for not converting. And many Muslims are not sat down with and told the great story about why they are wrong. There aren't enough ballsy missionaries to go around.


A tad bit subjective don't you think.


No, I do not think it is subjective to say that the good, pure people go to heaven, while the selfish egocentric backstabbing bastards do not. God is all powerful, and can surely handle something so simple as deciding who tried to live a good life.


We were created to fulfill a purpose... for GOD's glory. Obedience then, is one of the quintessential forms of worship because it openly embraces our subservience to the King of Kings. Those who reject GOD, however, fail to acknowledge this order and ultimately fall out of GOD's Grace. A common error is that people don't really understand what worship really means.

Again, youre preaching to one who was recently part of the choir. I know the definition of worship here, and wholeheartedly reject this as part of God's plan or wish. I believe mankind has perverted the Bible and God's teachings.

We are likely at an impasse because you will never believe otherwise without risking eternal damnation, and I will never be convinced unless it is with logic and not the Bible, because, as I said, I believe it to have been perverted.

[sandman]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Thanks for sharing yours.

[2centsworth]

All those who try to follow the teachings of Christ, or Ghandi even, and remain good people go to Heaven.
Isiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. "

No one is good when compared to God.


Again, youre preaching to one who was recently part of the choir. I know the definition of worship here, and wholeheartedly reject this as part of God's plan or wish. I believe mankind has perverted the Bible and God's teachings.
There's a reason the bible has sold more copies than any other book. Also, most major religions reference the bible and it's stories (Islam and Mormons).

It's God's devine word and as powerful as God is why would he let man pervert his word?

[xrayzebra]

It's God's devine word and as powerful as God is why would he let man pervert his word?

Because he gave us the one thing no other
animal has. Free Will. And the ability to choose
between right and wrong.

[turambar85]

Because he gave us the one thing no other
animal has. Free Will. And the ability to choose
between right and wrong.


Damn it to hell. X-ray has said something I agree with.

[sandman]

Damn it to hell. X-ray has said something I agree with.

Should I be looking for natural disasters to start occurring globally, or just a funky alignment of the planets in the sky tonight?

[turambar85]

Should I be looking for natural disasters to start occurring globally, or just a funky alignment of the planets in the sky tonight?

The funky alignment of the sky, actually.

[sandman]

The funky alignment of the sky, actually.

Just as long as hell doesn't freeze over. That would Inconvenient to Al Gore.

[turambar85]

Just as long as hell doesn't freeze over. That would Inconvenient to Al Gore.

That, and I will feel bad for saying this, will happen in a few decades when Hillary Clinton finds her way back home.

[DarkReign]

Just as long as hell doesn't freeze over. That would Inconvenient to Al Gore.

:lmao

[turambar85]

There's a reason the bible has sold more copies than any other book. Also, most major religions reference the bible and it's stories (Islam and Mormons).

It's God's devine word and as powerful as God is why would he let man pervert his word?

Uhm, sales has little to do with truth or validity. The Bible has so many sales because there are so many Christians. Just because a ton of people saw "An Inconvenient Truth" did not mean that you automatically decided global warming was real, did it?

As for the divinity of God's word leading to the perfection of the scripture...give me a break. Major fallacy. The Kuran is supposed to be God's word, and it is allowed to exist. God didnt strike the book dead in it's tracks. There are tons of books that are supposed to be God's divine word.

Weak.

[Guru of Nothing]

Random interjection...

For those truly enamored by this topic, I cannot overemphasize my recommendation that y'all watch the film Searching for the Wrong-Eyed Jesus.

Dude does go a bit artsy on the viewer, but the people in the film are unforgettable.

Also, if I may add, this film will not sway anyone's opinion - nor was it meant to.

http://www.searchingforthewrongeyedjesus.com/

[leemajors]

20 minutes into this movie and my stomach is doing flips. the homeschooling part with levi is sickening.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh man, thats nothing. It just gets worse and worse.

[leemajors]

Oh man, thats nothing. It just gets worse and worse.

i would agree now, this is every bit as brutal as requiem for a dream. descent.

[Phenomanul]

Don't judge the whole for the action of a few extremists....


Hmmm where have I heard this before?

[Phenomanul]

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5702
^--this is a good read, despite that this guy differs from my point of view

sadly, as usual the 'scholarly' articles aren't free...dumbass intellectuals pricing themselves out of public discourse --- but here's the best link i could find http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-11959180_ITM


Then care to explain how that is coherent with the message in Romans 1? The sodomites were bad hosts because they wanted to sexually befriend the 'two men' that came to Lot's house. Being sexually perverse describes why they were bad hosts; the two concepts are related and cannot be dissociated.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

That explains part of your dissention.... Religion and spirituallity are two different things. Religion is a wholly humanistic creation. A spiritual bond with GOD, however, is not; it is a divinely sanctioned priviledge that GOD himself extends to any and all who will listen and accept. A spiritually receptive connection with GOD was ordained by the Creator himself; established out of GOD's love for humanity. It is in our nature to seek out truth - guess who placed that desire in the very fabric of our being?

GOD is the full manifestation of absolute TRUTH; when we genuinely seek TRUTH that path should always lead us to GOD. Unfortunately, men foolishly place their own wisdom above GOD's and in doing so, they reject the TRUTH.

Again, people who see themselves as religious see their 'religiousness' as facet of their life... you are right in exposing their inherent hypocrisy... Genuine spirituallity, on the other hand, is a way of life. It is manifested by a person's attitudes, by their show of restraint, by their service, by their integrity, by their love for others - if a person is truly being led by the Holy Spirit one will see these characteristics and attributes manifested in each and every relationship that is nurtured by that person.

Granted of course that people need to realize that no one is perfect; some simply seek to justify their own actions by pointing out the imperfections of those around them. These people usually end up bitter in the end.All this needs is a frame to go around it. I couldn't agree with you any more.

[leemajors]

Don't judge the whole for the action of a few extremists....


Hmmm where have I heard this before?

i think most of us realize christianity as a whole isn't like evangelical christianity. the thinking being shoved down children's throats in this movie is deplorable - intolerance and ignorance in spades.

[ponky]

the best part of the trailer was the ending "this means WAR!"

[Phenomanul]

i think most of us realize christianity as a whole isn't like evangelical christianity. the thinking being shoved down children's throats in this movie is deplorable - intolerance and ignorance in spades.


I don't believe 'evangelical' is quite the right adjective. I consider myself an evangelical christian but I certainly don't condone or agree with 95% of what I saw highlighted in the film.

They are closer to being defined as being a 'sect'... if anything. That would fit the bill more closely.

[Guru of Nothing]

Random interjection...

For those truly enamored by this topic, I cannot overemphasize my recommendation that y'all watch the film Searching for the Wrong-Eyed Jesus.

Dude does go a bit artsy on the viewer, but the people in the film are unforgettable.

Also, if I may add, this film will not sway anyone's opinion - nor was it meant to.

http://www.searchingforthewrongeyedjesus.com/

I must bump my own post.

Searching for the Wrong Eyed Jesus is simply a superb documentary. It's like one of those weird childhood dreams that you never forget; Harry Crews is the most haunting individual I have ever heard.

Please watch.

[Guru of Nothing]

Speaking of Harry Crews, check out this quote:


So far as I can see, nothing good in the world has ever been done by well-rounded people. The good work is done by people with jagged, broken edges, because those edges cut things and leave an imprint, a design.

[ObiwanGinobili]

I saw this DVD 2 nights ago.
That was borderline child abuse IMO.
man I felt so bad for those klids crying and crying... like every single time they had ot listen to this lady "preach" she would rile them up emotionally and soon they'd be crying. :(
and the fact that she was using the example of islamic extremeists as a path to follow..... nutcase. "well they do it and they *think* they are right - so we should do it since we *know* we are right" WTF?

[ThomasGranger]

I just saw it last night--didn't know there was a thread about it until today so coming across this was a nice surprise.

The whole "Harry Potter is a warlock!" diatribe cracked me up, but the way they broke those kids down emotionally . . . that was some spooky cult-like stuff.

[Ya Vez]

where is janet reno and the ATF when you need them?