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Nbadan
09-18-2006, 01:55 AM
Paul Krugman: King of Pain

Paul Krugman wonders why the president is so determined to have torture declared legal:


King of Pain, by Paul Krugman, Commentary, NY Times: (http://select.nytimes.com/2006/09/18/opinion/18krugman.html) A lot has been written and said about President Bush’s demand that Congress “clarify” the part of the Geneva Conventions that, in effect, outlaws the use of torture under any circumstances.

We know that the world would see this action as a U.S. repudiation of the rules that bind civilized nations. We also know that an extraordinary lineup of former military and intelligence leaders, including Colin Powell, have spoken out against the Bush plan, warning that it would further damage America’s faltering moral standing, and end up endangering U.S. troops.

But I haven’t seen much discussion of the underlying question: why is Mr. Bush so determined to engage in torture? ... And bear in mind that the “few bad apples” excuse doesn’t apply; these were officially approved tactics — and Mr. Bush wants at least some of these tactics to remain in use. ... [Also,] Remember that the Bush administration has imprisoned a number of innocent men at Guantánamo, and in some cases continues to imprison them even though it knows they are innocent.

Is torture a necessary evil in a post-9/11 world? No. People with actual knowledge of intelligence work tell us that ... [w]hat torture produces in practice is misinformation, as its victims, desperate to end the pain, tell interrogators whatever they want to hear. Thus Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi — who ABC News says was subjected to both the cold cell and water boarding — told his questioners that Saddam Hussein’s regime had trained members of Al Qaeda in the use of biochemical weapons. This “confession” became a key part of the Bush administration’s case for invading Iraq — but it was pure invention.

So why is the Bush administration so determined to torture people?

To show that it can.

The central drive of the Bush administration — more fundamental than any particular policy — has been the effort to eliminate all limits on the president’s power. Torture, I believe, appeals to the president and the vice president precisely because it’s a violation of both law and tradition. By making an illegal and immoral practice a key element of U.S. policy, they’re asserting their right to do whatever they claim is necessary. ...

The Republican majority in the House ... is poised to vote in favor of the administration’s plan to, in effect, declare torture legal. Most Republican senators are equally willing to go along, although a few, to their credit, have stood with the Democrats in opposing the administration.

Mr. Bush would have us believe that the difference between him and those opposing him on this issue is that he’s willing to do what’s necessary to protect America, and they aren’t. But the record says otherwise.

The fact is that for all his talk of being a “war president,” Mr. Bush has been conspicuously unwilling to ask Americans to make sacrifices on behalf of the cause — even when, in the days after 9/11, the nation longed to be called to a higher purpose. His admirers looked at him and thought they saw Winston Churchill. But instead of offering us blood, toil, tears and sweat, he told us to go shopping and promised tax cuts.

Only now, five years after 9/11, has Mr. Bush finally found some things he wants us to sacrifice. And those things turn out to be our principles and our self-respect.

Nbadan
09-18-2006, 02:20 AM
In Failure of Imagination, by Eric Umansky (http://www.cjr.org/issues/2006/5/Umansky.asp), Umansky writes about some of the torture cases that have made it past U.S. censors and why the media has been complacent in its responsibility to report about torture, here's an excerpt


As it happens, two years later the Times uncovered military investigative files on the Bagram case detailing just how big a story had been buried. The files, the Times reported on May 20, 2005, offered “ample testimony that harsh treatment by some interrogators was routine and that guards could strike shackled detainees with virtual impunity.” The beatings and other interrogation tactics — prisoners deprived of sleep, threatened with dogs, and sexually humiliated — were later used at Abu Ghraib. Dilawar, who officials later acknowledged was innocent, had been repeatedly hit with a “common peroneal strike” — a blow just above the knee. The result, a coroner later testified, was that his legs had “basically been pulpified.” The Times also reported that officers who had overseen the Bagram prison at the time were promoted; another, who had lied to investigators, was transferred to help oversee interrogations at Abu Ghraib and awarded a Bronze Star.

RandomGuy
09-18-2006, 11:27 AM
I really wonder how the people who continue to support him can seriously do so.

I firmly believe that the only way one can support this president is to me ignorant, amoral, or both.

Torture? I mean, seriously, does anybody think that our long-term interests are best served by condoning such things?

PixelPusher
09-18-2006, 11:31 AM
I really wonder how the people who continue to support him can seriously do so.

I firmly believe that the only way one can support this president is to me ignorant, amoral, or both.

Torture? I mean, seriously, does anybody think that our long-term interests are best served by condoning such things?

...b...but, it always works for Jack Bauer!?


:rolleyes

George Gervin's Afro
09-18-2006, 11:36 AM
I really wonder how the people who continue to support him can seriously do so.

I firmly believe that the only way one can support this president is to me ignorant, amoral, or both.

Torture? I mean, seriously, does anybody think that our long-term interests are best served by condoning such things?


haven't you heard? If you don't blindly support Bush you are with the terrorists... you want them to win if you don't drink the kool aid!

spurster
09-18-2006, 12:11 PM
There are always people who are in favor of treating "bad" people badly, and another portion who can be pressured into going along with it. The frightening thing is that it's BushCo and the most of the GOP who fit these categories, respectively. Where the hell is the GOP protecting individual rights and protecting us from the power of the governement?

Yonivore
09-18-2006, 12:55 PM
I guess Krugman didn't bother to read the proposed legislation. Neither have any of you, I'd bet.

Exactly what section proposes torture?

boutons_
09-18-2006, 01:29 PM
the GC has stood for decades without need of clarification.

WH aides admit if the legislation passes, it would be interpreted by the WH that the WH could continue torturing as before, but be able to claim it was authorized by Congress.

RandomGuy
09-18-2006, 01:40 PM
The administration has proposed "redefining" the Geneva Convention.

That alone should make anybody shudder.

One cannot "support the troops" and advocate such a thing, as our troops will be the ones who suffer for our doing so.

Ya Vez
09-19-2006, 03:33 PM
I wonder where he was during the good old clinton torture days... ?

"Developed in the mid-1990s during the Clinton administration, the CIA's rendition program allowed the agency to capture high-value targets anywhere in the world and bring them to a third country for interrogation. Critics argue that rendition is "outsourcing torture"; suspects are believed to have been taken to countries including Egypt, Morocco, Syria and Jordan, which have all been accused by the U.S. State Department and human rights organizations of torture."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/etc/faqs.html

Ya Vez
09-19-2006, 03:43 PM
no wonder bill is a little quiet now...

The procedure was developed by Central Intelligence Agency officials [citation needed] in the mid-1990s who were trying to track down and dismantle militant Islamic organizations in the Middle East, particularly Al Qaeda. At the time, the agency was reluctant to grant suspected terrorists due process under American law, as it could potentially jeopardize its intelligence sources and methods. The solution the agency came up with, with the approval of the Clinton administration and a presidential directive (PDD 39), was to send suspects to Egypt, where they were turned over to the Egyptian mukhabarat, which has a reputation for brutality. This arrangement suited the Egyptians, as they had been trying to crack down on Islamic extremists in that country and a number of the senior members of Al Qaeda were Egyptian. The arrangement suited the US because torture is banned under both US and international law.
The argument for rendition made by defenders of the practice is that culturally-informed and native-language interrogations are more successful in gaining information from suspects. For instance, interrogators of one terrorist suspect prayed to Mecca five times per day in the presence of the suspect until he became willing to talk [15]. Nevertheless, there have been many reports of the use of torture by these governments on suspects rendered to them.
The first individual to be subjected to rendition was Talaat Fouad Qassem, one of Egypt's most wanted terrorists, who was arrested with the help of US intelligence by Croatian police in Zagreb in September 1995. He was interrogated by US agents on a ship in the Adriatic Sea and was then sent back to Egypt. He disappeared while in custody, and is suspected by human rights activists of having been executed without a trial.[citation needed]
In the summer of 1998, a similar operation was mounted in Tirana, Albania. Wiretaps showed that five Egyptians had been in contact with Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's deputy. During the course of several months, Shawki Salama Attiya and four militants were captured by Albanian security forces collaborating with US agents. The men were flown to Cairo for interrogation. Attiya later alleged that he had electric shocks applied to his genitals, was hung from his limbs, and was kept in a cell with dirty water up to his knees.
[edit]
Examples
"'Snatches', or more properly 'extraordinary renditions', were operations to apprehend terrorists abroad, usually without the knowledge of and almost always without public acknowledgement of the host government ... The first time I proposed a snatch, in 1993, the White House Counsel, Lloyd Cutler, demanded a meeting with the President to explain how it violated international law. Clinton had seemed to be siding with Cutler until Al Gore belatedly joined the meeting, having just flown overnight from South Africa. Clinton recapped the arguments on both sides for Gore: Lloyd says this. Dick says that. Gore laughed and said, 'That's a no-brainer. Of course it's a violation of international law, that's why it's a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass.'"[16]
Michael Scheuer said, "In 1995, American agents proposed the rendition program to Egypt, making clear that it had the resources to track, capture, and transport terrorist suspects globally—including access to a small fleet of aircraft. Egypt embraced the idea. "What was clever was that some of the senior people in Al Qaeda were Egyptian," Scheuer said. "It served American purposes to get these people arrested, and Egyptian purposes to get these people back, where they could be interrogated." Technically, U.S. law requires the CIA to seek "assurances" from foreign governments that rendered suspects won’t be tortured. Scheuer told me that this was done, but he was "not sure" if any documents confirming the arrangement were signed."[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Rendition

Ocotillo
09-19-2006, 03:50 PM
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Yonivore
09-19-2006, 03:52 PM
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Krugman's opinion doesn't make the policies wrong either.

The point was, where were all the lefties -- like Krugman -- when Clinton was doing the same thing?

Ocotillo
09-19-2006, 04:58 PM
Clinton did not ask to "clarify" the Geneva Conventions hence the rash of commentary on the subject.

Clinton was doing renditions. Bush wants to bring the stuff in-house.

Yonivore
09-19-2006, 05:04 PM
Clinton did not ask to "clarify" the Geneva Conventions hence the rash of commentary on the subject.
Because no one was threatening his soldier with war crimes charges. Article III language is too vague, someone needs to take a stand and say what will constitute a violation of Article III and what will not.

McCain did in the 2005 legislation and the administration is attempting to do it, using the same exact language, in this piece of legislation.

Otherwise, you'll have some idiot country wanting to try our interrogators for war crimes because they insulted Islam during an interrogation.


Clinton was doing renditions. Bush wants to bring the stuff in-house.
Yeah, and?