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SA210
09-19-2006, 04:07 PM
Olbermann: “The President of the United States owes this country an apology” (http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/09/18/olbermann-the-president-of-the-united-states-owes-this-country-an-apology/)
By: Jamie Holly on Monday, September 18th, 2006 at 6:25 PM - PDT http://static.crooksandliars.com/images/90x16-digg-link-2.gif (http://digg.com/videos_people/Olbermann_The_President_Owe_s_U_S_People_apology_V ideo)
http://static.crooksandliars.com/2006/09/Olbermann-SpecialComment-BushRoseGarden_0001.jpg Keith Olbermann delivered another stunning special comment tonight, this time attacking Bush’s Rose Garden press conference from last Friday.


Video (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Olbermann-SpecialComment-BushRoseGarden.wmv) - WMV Video (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Olbermann-SpecialComment-BushRoseGarden.mov) - QT




Olbermann: Finally tonight, a Special Comment about the Rose Garden news conference last Friday. The President of the United States owes this country an apology.There are now none around him who would tell him - or could. The last of them, it appears, was the very man whose letter provoked the President into the conduct, for which the apology is essential. An apology is this President’s only hope of regaining the slightest measure of confidence, of what has been, for nearly two years, a clear majority of his people.




Rough transcript below the fold.




Finally tonight, a Special Comment about the Rose Garden news conference last Friday.


The President of the United States owes this country an apology. It will not be offered, of course. He does not realize its necessity.

There are now none around him who would tell him - or could. The last of them, it appears, was the very man whose letter provoked the President into the conduct, for which the apology is essential. An apology is this President’s only hope of regaining the slightest measure of confidence, of what has been, for nearly two years, a clear majority of his people.

Not "confidence" in his policies nor in his designs nor even in something as narrowly focused as which vision of torture shall prevail — his, or that of the man who has sent him into apoplexy, Colin Powell. In a larger sense, the President needs to regain our confidence, that he has some basic understanding of what this country represents — of what it must maintain if we are to defeat not only terrorists, but if we are also to defeat what is ever more increasingly apparent, as an attempt to re-define the way we live here, and what we mean, when we say the word "freedom."

Because it is evident now that, if not its architect, this President intends to be the contractor, for this narrowing of the definition of freedom. The President revealed this last Friday, as he fairly spat through his teeth, words of unrestrained fury…

…directed at the man who was once the very symbol of his administration, who was once an ambassador from this administration to its critics, as he had once been an ambassador from the military to its critics. The former Secretary of State, Mr. Powell, had written, simply and candidly and without anger, that "the world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism."

This President’s response included not merely what is apparently the Presidential equivalent of threatening to hold one’s breath, but — within — it contained one particularly chilling phrase. Mr. President, former Secretary of State Colin Powell says the world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism. If a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and former secretary of state feels this way, don’t you think that Americans and the rest of the world are beginning to wonder whether you’re following a flawed strategy? BUSH: If there’s any comparison between the compassion and decency of the American people and the terrorist tactics of extremists, it’s flawed logic. It’s just — I simply can’t accept that. It’s unacceptable to think that there’s any kind of comparison between the behavior of the United States of America and the action of Islamic extremists who kill innocent women and children to achieve an objective.

Of course** it’s acceptable to think that there’s "any kind of comparison." And in this particular debate, it is not only acceptable, it is obviously necessary. Some will think that our actions at Abu Ghraib, or in Guantanamo, or in secret prisons in Eastern Europe, are all too comparable to the actions of the extremists. Some will think that there is no similarity, or, if there is one, it is to the slightest and most unavoidable of degrees.

What all of us will agree on, is that we have the right — we have the duty — to think about the comparison. And, most importantly, that the other guy, whose opinion about this we cannot fathom, has exactly the same right as we do: to think — and say — what his mind and his heart and his conscience tell him, is right.

All of us agree about that.

Except, it seems, this President.

With increasing rage, he and his administration have begun to tell us, we are not permitted to disagree with them, that we cannot be right. That Colin Powell cannot be right.And then there was that one, most awful phrase.

In four simple words last Friday, the President brought into sharp focus what has been only vfocused as which vision of torture shall prevail — his, or that of the man who has sent him into apoplexy, Colin Powell. In a larger sense, the President needs to regain our confidence, that he has some basic understanding of what this country represents — of what it must maintain if we are to defeat not only terrorists, but if we are also to defeat what is ever more increasingly apparent, as an attempt to re-define the way we live here, and what we mean, when we say the word "freedom."

Because it is evident now that, if not its architect, this President intends to be the contractor, for this narrowing of the definition of freedom. The President revealed this last Friday, as he fairly spat through his teeth, words of unrestrained fury…

…directed at the man who was once the very symbol of his administration, who was once an ambassador from this administration to its critics, as he had once been an ambassador from the military to its critics. The former Secretary of State, Mr. Powell, had written, simply and candidly and without anger, that "the world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism."

This President’s response included not merely what is apparently the Presidential equivalent of threatening to hold one’s breath, but — within — it contained one particularly chilling phrase. Mr. President, former Secretary of State Colin Powell says the world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism. If a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and former secretary of state feels this way, don’t you think that Americans and the rest of the world are beginning to wonder whether you’re following a flawed strategy? BUSH: If there’s any comparison between the compassion and decency of the American people and the terrorist tactics of extremists, it’s flawed logic. It’s just — I simply can’t accept that. It’s unacceptable to think that there’s any kind of comparison between the behavior of the United States of America and the action of Islamic extremists who kill innocent women and children to achieve an objective.

Of course** it’s acceptable to think that there’s "any kind of comparison." And in this particular debate, it is not only acceptable, it is obviously necessary. Some will think that our actions at Abu Ghraib, or in Guantanamo, or in secret prisons in Eastern Europe, are all too comparable to the actions of the extremists. Some will think that there is no similarity, or, if there is one, it is to the slightest and most unavoidable of degrees.

What all of us will agree on, is that we have the right — we have the duty — to think about the comparison. And, most importantly, that the other guy, whose opinion about this we cannot fathom, has exactly the same right as we do: to think — and say — what his mind and his heart and his conscience tell him, is right.

All of us agree about that.

Except, it seems, this President.

With increasing rage, he and his administration have begun to tell us, we are not permitted to disagree with them, that we cannot be right. That Colin Powell cannot be right.And then there was that one, most awful phrase.

In four simple words last Friday, the President brought into sharp focus what has been only vaguely clear these past five-and-a-half years - the way the terrain at night is perceptible only during an angry flash of lightning, and then, a second later, all again is dark.

"It’s unacceptable to think…" he said. It is never unacceptable… to think.

And when a President says thinking is unacceptable, even on one topic, even in the heat of the moment, even in the turning of a phrase extracted from its context… he takes us toward a new and fearful path — one heretofore the realm of science fiction authors and apocalyptic visionaries.

That flash of lightning freezes at the distant horizon, and we can just make out a world in which authority can actually suggest it has become unacceptable to think. hus the lightning flash reveals not merely a President we have already seen, the one who believes he has a monopoly on current truth.

It now shows us a President who has decided that of all our commanders-in-chief, ever… he, alone, has had the knowledge necessary to alter and re-shape our inalienable rights. This is a frightening, and a dangerous, delusion, Mr. President.

If Mr. Powell’s letter - cautionary, concerned, predominantly supportive — can induce from you such wrath and such intolerance — what would you say were this statement to be shouted to you by a reporter, or written to you by a colleague?

"Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government…"

Those incendiary thoughts came, of course, from a prior holder of your job, Mr. Bush. They were the words of Thomas Jefferson.

He put them in the Declaration of Independence. Mr. Bush, what would you say to something that annti-thetical to the status quo just now? Would you call it "unacceptable" for Jefferson to think such things, or to write them?

Between your confidence in your infallibility, sir, and your demonizing of dissent, and now these rages better suited to a thwarted three-year old, you have left the unnerving sense of a White House coming unglued - a chilling suspicion that perhaps we have not seen the peak of the anger; that we can no longer forecast what next will be said to, or about, anyone… who disagrees.

Or what will next be done to them. On this newscast last Friday night, Constitiutional law Professor Jonathan Turley of George Washington University, suggested that at some point in the near future…some of the "detainees" transferred from secret CIA cells to Guantanamo, will finally get to tell the Red Cross that they have indeed been tortured.

Thus the debate over the Geneva Conventions, might not be about further interrogations of detainees, but about those already conducted, and the possible liability of the administration, for them. That, certainly, could explain Mr. Bush’s fury.

That, at this point, is speculative. But at least it provides an alternative possibility as to why the President’s words were at such variance from the entire history of this country. For, there needs to be some other explanation, Mr. Bush, than that you truly believe we should live in a United States of America in which a thought is unacceptable.

There needs to be a delegation of responsible leaders — Republicans or otherwise — who can sit you down as Barry Goldwater and Hugh Scott once sat Richard Nixon down - and explain the **reality** of the situation you have created.

There needs to be… an apology from the President of the United States.

And more than one.

But, Mr. Bush, the others — for warnings unheeded five years ago, for war unjustified four years ago, for battle unprepared three years ago — they are not weighted with the urgency and necessity of this one. We must know that, to you…thought with which you disagree — and even voice with which you disagree - and even action with which you disagree — are still sacrosanct to you.

The philosopher Voltaire once insisted to another author, "I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write." Since the nation’s birth, Mr. Bush, we have misquoted and even embellished that statement, but we have served ourselves well, by subscribing to its essence.

Oddly, there are other words of Voltaire’s that are more pertinent still, just now. "Think for yourselves," he wrote, "and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too." Apologize, sir, for even hinting at an America where a few have that privilege to think — and the rest of us get yelled at by the President.

Anything else, Mr. Bush, is truly… unacceptable.
=================================================

Good for Keith, keep up the good work.

Extra Stout
09-19-2006, 04:18 PM
I must have missed Colin Powell's getting thrown in prison for disagreeing with the President.

Oh wait, he didn't? That was just rhetoric from the President? He isn't actually banning any speech? So Olbermann really went so far overboard that the ship has disappeared over the horizon, doesn't have any real point, and is just acting as a blustering demagogue, a right-wing Sean Hannity?

Ocotillo
09-19-2006, 04:52 PM
^^ we may be closer than you think to dissenters being imprisoned in this country. Democrats are regularly branded anti-American or with the terrorists and with the unitary exective powers this regime has been claiming, we are not far from imprisoning the political oppostion because they are '"terrorist sympathizers".

These guys make Nixon look like a lovable imp.

Yonivore
09-19-2006, 04:58 PM
^^ we may be closer than you think to dissenters being imprisoned in this country. Democrats are regularly branded anti-American or with the terrorists and with the unitary exective powers this regime has been claiming, we are not far from imprisoning the political oppostion because they are '"terrorist sympathizers".

These guys make Nixon look like a lovable imp.
For the last fucking six years we've been hearing how martial law and the yanking away of all our freedoms and liberties are just around the next corner. Well, hell, Bush had better shit or get off the pot.

The Patriot Act was supposed to have done this and yet it's been around for five years and, whaddayaknow, I haven't lost a single solitary personal freedom. Not one.

And, as far as being regularly branded anti-American or terrorist sympathizer, that's true but, I don't hear anyone proposing you be imprisoned for having such whacked out, counter productive views. You're just ridiculed.

Ocotillo
09-19-2006, 05:00 PM
^^ that comes first Himmler.

Extra Stout
09-19-2006, 05:00 PM
^^ we may be closer than you think to dissenters being imprisoned in this country. Democrats are regularly branded anti-American or with the terrorists and with the unitary exective powers this regime has been claiming, we are not far from imprisoning the political oppostion because they are '"terrorist sympathizers".

These guys make Nixon look like a lovable imp.
If name-calling meant political imprisonment were imminent, we would have been a police state since 1789.

Stop paying so much heed to the moonbats.

Extra Stout
09-19-2006, 05:02 PM
^^ that comes first Himmler.
Godwin's Law. You lose.

PixelPusher
09-19-2006, 09:28 PM
Godwin's Law. You lose.

That's the problem with incrementalism. No one listens to a frog who complains that the water feels two degrees warmer.

Yonivore
09-19-2006, 10:21 PM
That's the problem with incrementalism. No one listens to a frog who complains that the water feels two degrees warmer.
You listen to frogs?

PixelPusher
09-19-2006, 10:24 PM
You listen to frogs?

Boiling Frog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog)

Yonivore
09-19-2006, 10:27 PM
Boiling Frog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog)
I know the analogy. But, really, exactly what liberties or freedoms have you lost under the Bush administration that would lead me to believe a frog is being boiled here?

Truly the only attempted infringement on any rights I've witnessed were when the Congressional Democrats threated to sic the FCC on ABC if they persisted in showing the "Path to 9/11" movie -- if they took over in November.

C'mon, list one thing you no longer have the constitutional right to do that you had before Bush took office. Just one.

01Snake
09-19-2006, 10:30 PM
C'mon, list one thing you no longer have the constitutional right to do that you had before Bush took office. Just one.

Much like the Dems accuse the Right of using terrorism as a scare tactic, they use the "stripping of our liberties" as theirs.

Yonivore
09-19-2006, 10:31 PM
Much like the Dems accuse the Right of using terrorism as a scare tactic, they use the "stripping of our liberties" as theirs.
The water in my boiling pot is still ice cold.

PixelPusher
09-19-2006, 10:56 PM
C'mon, list one thing you no longer have the constitutional right to do that you had before Bush took office. Just one.

For myself? None.

Of course if I were a muslim, I'd worry about being falsely accused of being a terrorist, arrested and held without charges, subjected to torture...er, "alternative methods of interrogation", and possibly convicted based on secret evidence I and my attorney can't view or challenge.

...but I'm not a muslim so it's all good. Nothin' to worry about. Water is just fine.

Yonivore
09-19-2006, 11:04 PM
the president is kind of stupid sometimes and doesn't seem to know or care about basic constitutional law............and that is pretty damn sad.
And, he's demonstrated this lack of care for basic constitutional law how? Example please.

Yonivore
09-19-2006, 11:05 PM
For myself? None.

Of course if I were a muslim, I'd worry about being falsely accused of being a terrorist, arrested and held without charges, subjected to torture...er, "alternative methods of interrogation", and possibly convicted based on secret evidence I and my attorney can't view or challenge.

...but I'm not a muslim so it's all good. Nothin' to worry about. Water is just fine.
Of course, you personally know Muslims that have lost basic constitutional rights, freedoms, or liberties?

Example please. And, worrying about losing something ain't the same as actually losing it.

PixelPusher
09-19-2006, 11:13 PM
Of course, you personally know Muslims that have lost basic constitutional rights, freedoms, or liberties?

Example please. And, worrying about losing something ain't the same as actually losing it.

Well gee golly whiz, Yoni...I don't personally know any of the detainees at Gitmo. I guess If I don't have a direct personal relationship with someone who's rights are violated then they don't actually exist.

This might be a new one to add to the fallacy list. (http://nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)

Yonivore
09-19-2006, 11:16 PM
Well gee golly whiz, Yoni...I don't personally know any of the detainees at Gitmo. I guess If I don't have a direct personal relationship with someone who's rights are violated then they don't actually exist.

This might be a new one to add to the fallacy list. (http://nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)
Well, then certainly you can point to a case where a Muslim has been denied constitutional rights or where, in this administration's policy, the constitutional rights of a Muslim are different than those of other people.

Right?

PixelPusher
09-19-2006, 11:25 PM
Well, then certainly you can point to a case where a Muslim has been denied constitutional rights or where, in this administration's policy, the constitutional rights of a Muslim are different than those of other people.

Right?
I don't think this administration singles out all muslims as a whole, but as for an example of a muslim being denied constitutional rights...

Yaser Esam Hamdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaser_Hamdi)

...and who know? He probably is a terrorist. But my frog water will feel a lot cooler once it's proven in a court of law.

Trainwreck2100
09-19-2006, 11:47 PM
the president don't need to apologize for shit it's not his fault a moron was elected into office.

Yonivore
09-19-2006, 11:52 PM
I don't think this administration singles out all muslims as a whole, but as for an example of a muslim being denied constitutional rights...

Yaser Esam Hamdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaser_Hamdi)

...and who know? He probably is a terrorist. But my frog water will feel a lot cooler once it's proven in a court of law.
And which constitutional right was Hamdi denied?

PixelPusher
09-20-2006, 12:08 AM
And which constitutional right was Hamdi denied?
Hamdi was denied legal representation and held without charges, which is a violation of...


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

There was a big Supreme Court case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdi_v._Rumsfeld) specifically adressing this. Even Scalia didn't buy the administration's bullshit.

Extra Stout
09-20-2006, 08:15 AM
Hamdi was denied legal representation and held without charges, which is a violation of...



There was a big Supreme Court case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdi_v._Rumsfeld) specifically adressing this. Even Scalia didn't buy the administration's bullshit.
So you mean there is a system of checks and balances in our form of government? Interesting.

So did Bush abide by the decision, ignore it, or dissolve the Supreme Court?

DarkReign
09-20-2006, 08:42 AM
Eh, good read. He went a little too far with his "4 little words" shpeel, but all in all good, imo.

I just cant remember any president who looked so offended and almost angry that there are people in his own country who disagree with him....amazing really because I cant get everyone I know to agree with me and I am not the single most powerful man in the world with more TV airtime than most reality shows.

Yonivore
09-20-2006, 08:47 AM
Hamdi was denied legal representation and held without charges, which is a violation of...

There was a big Supreme Court case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdi_v._Rumsfeld) specifically adressing this. Even Scalia didn't buy the administration's bullshit.
I don't believe Hamdi is a valid case on which to rest your premise the President is disregarding constitutional rights.

Hamdi was captured on the field of battle in Afghanistan, a foreign country. It is my understanding that no other person, in the history of the country, that has been so incarcerated has ever been afforded fourth amendment protections or rights.

It was perfectly reasonable for the Commander in Chief to attempt to get this scumbag designated as an enemy combatant and to treat him as such.

But, that your argument rests on such a circumstance is reassuring to me. After all, I know of no case where an American citizen has had any rights or protections negated and, as Extra Stout pointed out in this case, the matter was settled in court -- as it is supposed to be.

Therefore, even though he didn't deserve it, Hamdi was afforded his fourth amendment protections and rights.

Next?

Yonivore
09-20-2006, 08:48 AM
Eh, good read. He went a little too far with his "4 little words" shpeel, but all in all good, imo.

I just cant remember any president who looked so offended and almost angry that there are people in his own country who disagree with him....amazing really because I cant get everyone I know to agree with me and I am not the single most powerful man in the world with more TV airtime than most reality shows.
Yeah, well the survival of your nation probably isn't riding on you convincing others of your position.

I think it is more frustration, on his part, than anger.

George Gervin's Afro
09-20-2006, 09:15 AM
Yoni,

maybe bush us wrong? it seems in your world bush has been 100% right and if anyone disagrees they are are wrong. I've never heard of anyone ever being 100% correct? on everything? iraq COULD turn into a disaster for our country or it COULD turn into a history making event. iraq MIGHT become a country that leads to the middle east becming more democratic or it MIGHT destablilize the region and make the region worse.. my point is just because bush says we need to do something a certain way doesn't mean he's right. let's be honest his planning of the iraq war was less than desirable and even he has admitted that we have made mistakes..which leads me to believe he's not perfect...

OH, I KNOW THE TERRORISTS WANT TO KILL US OK? you respond with this everytime someone points out problems with bush's idea of fighting terror. bush doesn't get a free pass just because there are people trying to kill us.. he is accouantable to 100% of the country and not just his base!!

cherylsteele
09-20-2006, 09:33 AM
Well gee golly whiz, Yoni...I don't personally know any of the detainees at Gitmo. I guess If I don't have a direct personal relationship with someone who's rights are violated then they don't actually exist.

This might be a new one to add to the fallacy list. (http://nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)
I know several Muslim-American CITIZENS....a couple where I work who have not seem any of there "rights" violated. They have done nothing wrong except struggle like many others in this country. They woukld not agree with you at all. These detaintees' actions make the Muslim religion look bad.

None of my rights have been violated since the patriot act was put in place. I don't agree with many of the things Bush and his administration have done but that does not mean I lose my rights.

cherylsteele
09-20-2006, 09:36 AM
funny these laws were made because the british government was too over-reaching, over-bearing, inconsiderate of the rights of their subjects to due process, and just plain tyrannical...........have we become that??????
sure does sound like it.
I have never had this happen to me personally.....have you?
How about some examples tyranny?

DarkReign
09-20-2006, 09:53 AM
Yeah, well the survival of your nation probably isn't riding on you convincing others of your position.

I think it is more frustration, on his part, than anger.

Also very true. Truman for example.

xrayzebra
09-20-2006, 10:05 AM
Well I see the village Idots and Fools are still in full
voice. Bush hates American and is taking away all its
rights and the Terrorist are good guys and should be
protected. Don't you just love their way of thinking. Thank God we have Bush as President and not them.

George Gervin's Afro
09-20-2006, 10:10 AM
Well I see the village Idots and Fools are still in full
voice. Bush hates American and is taking away all its
rights and the Terrorist are good guys and should be
protected. Don't you just love their way of thinking. Thank God we have Bush as President and not them.


what took you so long? i was beginning to miss your 'protecting the terrorists' posts (if you disagree with bush)... ! you represent karl rove's dream citizen..

xrayzebra
09-20-2006, 10:16 AM
what took you so long? i was beginning to miss your 'protecting the terrorists' posts (if you disagree with bush)... ! you represent karl rove's dream citizen..

Hey just calling it as I see it. The terrorist are
always the ones to be protected, citizens are losing
their rights and it is all Bush's fault. And oh, yes,
lest we forget Carl Rove gave the "secret" information about Valerie "flame". Don't want
to forget that.

:lol

clambake
09-20-2006, 10:37 AM
I don't want to protect the terrorist. I want them dead. I don't want terrorist to have any due process. I don't want them to have any rights at all.

I want to make sure they are terrorist, then procede. I don't want another Abu Gharib(sp) where if your not a terrorist when you go in, you will be by the time you get out.

I'm also tired of hearing bush whine like a baby. God, what a wuss. He is an embarrassment to all of us. The rest of the world hates our leader. What are the prospects for your company if everybody hates the owner?

George W Bush
09-20-2006, 11:00 AM
I don't want to protect the terrorist. I want them dead. I don't want terrorist to have any due process. I don't want them to have any rights at all.

I want to make sure they are terrorist, then procede. I don't want another Abu Gharib(sp) where if your not a terrorist when you go in, you will be by the time you get out.

I'm also tired of hearing bush whine like a baby. God, what a wuss. He is an embarrassment to all of us. The rest of the world hates our leader. What are the prospects for your company if everybody hates the owner?


I want to warn all Americans and put them
on FULL ALERT from posts such as the one above.

These are what I call "my dissenters" or "opposers" or "evil doers" or "truthsayers",
and their only interest is spreading facts about me
and my administration!

And we can't have facts told to the American people
because we would only make the enemy stronger, the Democrats.

So, the facts stop now, so that we can focus on the
"War to End the World.....err..err,

I mean, the "War on Terror".




God Bless America :tu

xrayzebra
09-20-2006, 02:58 PM
I don't want to protect the terrorist. I want them dead. I don't want terrorist to have any due process. I don't want them to have any rights at all.

I want to make sure they are terrorist, then procede. I don't want another Abu Gharib(sp) where if your not a terrorist when you go in, you will be by the time you get out.

I'm also tired of hearing bush whine like a baby. God, what a wuss. He is an embarrassment to all of us. The rest of the world hates our leader. What are the prospects for your company if everybody hates the owner?


Bush is not an embarrassment to "all" of us. He
is someone I am proud of. Quit trying to speak
for "all" of us. Speak for yourself! He is doing a
job that needs to be done.

You want terrorist dead, huh? But you just
don't want anyone to come out of a prison as
a terrorist. Now how do you know they weren't
before they went in? You physic?

Remember one small fact. The terrorist want
you dead too. And the sooner the better and
they really don't mind if they kill a few thousand
women, children and men who are just trying
to do a little everyday shopping. Now there
is a thought for you.

George Gervin's Afro
09-20-2006, 03:06 PM
Bush is not an embarrassment to "all" of us. He
is someone I am proud of. Quit trying to speak
for "all" of us. Speak for yourself! He is doing a
job that needs to be done.

You want terrorist dead, huh? But you just
don't want anyone to come out of a prison as
a terrorist. Now how do you know they weren't
before they went in? You physic?

Remember one small fact. The terrorist want
you dead too. And the sooner the better and
they really don't mind if they kill a few thousand
women, children and men who are just trying
to do a little everyday shopping. Now there
is a thought for you.


AND IT'S POSSIBLE BUSH HAS F*CKED THINGS UP BY INVADING IRAQ

JUST A THOUGHT

xrayzebra
09-20-2006, 03:16 PM
AND IT'S POSSIBLE BUSH HAS F*CKED THINGS UP BY INVADING IRAQ

JUST A THOUGHT

You are authorized to think. Just remember you
can be wrong too. Might want to think about
that, while you are thinking.

Is it also possible he did the right thing, which I
THINK that he did. I may be wrong, but I don't
think so.

Seems he (Bush) hit a nerve in the terrorist
little world by invading Iraq. They seemed to be
expending a whole bunch of resources in fighting
to get us out of there. I wonder why?

ChumpDumper
09-20-2006, 03:23 PM
Seems he (Bush) hit a nerve in the terrorist
little world by invading Iraq.Actually, he almost wiped out the terrorists after invading Afghanistan. He did so with the cooperation of IRAN. Think about that for awhile, along with all the other goodwill and cooperation that evaporated when Bush decided to quit chasing the terrorists from Afghanistan and invaded the place the terrorists weren't.

gtownspur
09-20-2006, 03:51 PM
Actually, he almost wiped out the terrorists after invading Afghanistan. He did so with the cooperation of IRAN. Think about that for awhile, along with all the other goodwill and cooperation that evaporated when Bush decided to quit chasing the terrorists from Afghanistan and invaded the place the terrorists weren't.

Yep, that SHiite Iran giving a damn about Sunni and arch foe Iraq. As if we didn't do them a favor.

Zunni
09-20-2006, 08:53 PM
Yep, that SHiite Iran giving a damn about Sunni and arch foe Iraq. As if we didn't do them a favor.

Actually, Iraq is primarily Shi'ite. Saddam was part of the Sunni minority that was running the country, and yes, Bush DID do a huge favor for Iran, removing the only counterbalance in the area that would oppose them. Dumbshit.

PixelPusher
09-20-2006, 09:20 PM
So you mean there is a system of checks and balances in our form of government? Interesting.

So did Bush abide by the decision, ignore it, or dissolve the Supreme Court?



I don't believe Hamdi is a valid case on which to rest your premise the President is disregarding constitutional rights.

Hamdi was captured on the field of battle in Afghanistan, a foreign country. It is my understanding that no other person, in the history of the country, that has been so incarcerated has ever been afforded fourth amendment protections or rights.

It was perfectly reasonable for the Commander in Chief to attempt to get this scumbag designated as an enemy combatant and to treat him as such.

But, that your argument rests on such a circumstance is reassuring to me. After all, I know of no case where an American citizen has had any rights or protections negated and, as Extra Stout pointed out in this case, the matter was settled in court -- as it is supposed to be.

The Bush Admin violated Hamdi's constitutional rights. Getting swatted down by the Supreme Court doesn't change or erase what was done.


Therefore, even though he didn't deserve it, Hamdi was afforded his fourth amendment protections and rights.

Next?

That's just it, according to the Supreme Court Hamdi DOES deserve constitutional protections. This might be news to you, but matters of constitutionality are decided by the Supreme Court, not the handpicked, like-minded lawyers at the White House and Justice Department.

Yonivore
09-21-2006, 12:55 PM
The Bush Admin violated Hamdi's constitutional rights. Getting swatted down by the Supreme Court doesn't change or erase what was done.



That's just it, according to the Supreme Court Hamdi DOES deserve constitutional protections. This might be news to you, but matters of constitutionality are decided by the Supreme Court, not the handpicked, like-minded lawyers at the White House and Justice Department.
I'm still comfortable with the fact you chose to use Hamdi and that you have no other -- clearly discernible -- cases of where the President has violated anyone's rights.

Many argued that Hamdi didn't deserve constitutional protections. No one, similarly situated in prior conflicts has ever been afforded those protections. The administration relied on precedent. The argument was heard and settled in court -- the constitutional way. And, the administration asceded to the ruling.

Now, can you find me another of the 300 million American citizens the president's blatant disregard for the law has negatively affected?

FromWayDowntown
09-21-2006, 04:43 PM
The fact that some haven't discovered that their liberties have been trampled or that such individuals haven't brought suit based on such deprivations doesn't strike me as persuasive proof that this Administration has toed the line and adhered to the law in all circumstances. The on-going litigation concerning the NSA Surveillance program will shed some light on that issue, if it ever reaches a merits-based disposition. And given the secrecy with which the Administration has attempted to operate to this point, who knows if there are other programs in operation that are routinely violating the civil liberties of American citizens.

I understand your point, but I'd hardly say that there's conclusive proof that this Administration feels bound by the Constitution.

Yonivore
09-21-2006, 04:51 PM
The fact that some haven't discovered that their liberties have been trampled or that such individuals haven't brought suit based on such deprivations doesn't strike me as persuasive proof that this Administration has toed the line and adhered to the law in all circumstances. The on-going litigation concerning the NSA Surveillance program will shed some light on that issue, if it ever reaches a merits-based disposition. And given the secrecy with which the Administration has attempted to operate to this point, who knows if there are other programs in operation that are routinely violating the civil liberties of American citizens.
Haven't discovered? I know when my rights and liberties are taken.

Well, gee, do we have a bunch of American citizens that have gone missing and are unable to hire the ACLU to sue the government on their behalf?

Jeeze, there are nearly 300 million people in this country. You'd think that if the administration were wholesale throwing the constitution out the window a good percentage of those people would have an actionable cause by now. It's only been six years since the left started screaming this nonsense.


I understand your point, but I'd hardly say that there's conclusive proof that this Administration feels bound by the Constitution.
I think, in this case, and considering the obvious lack of injured parties -- that absence of evidence is, indeed, evidence of absence.

Your proposition suggests the administration should expose sensitive and effective counter-terrorism measure just so you can be comfortable that no one's civil rights are being violated.

I say come up with a clear cut -- deliberate -- violation and, then, we'll talk.

You know, something along the lines of say perjury, suborning perjury, and obstructing justice just so you can deny a litigant their due process rights. Something like that.

valluco
09-21-2006, 07:50 PM
Actually, he almost wiped out the terrorists after invading Afghanistan. He did so with the cooperation of IRAN. Think about that for awhile, along with all the other goodwill and cooperation that evaporated when Bush decided to quit chasing the terrorists from Afghanistan and invaded the place the terrorists weren't.
b i n g o.

Yonivore
09-21-2006, 09:03 PM
b i n g o.
So, valluco, exactly when did Zarqawi flee Afghanistan and go to Iraq?

temujin
09-22-2006, 06:38 PM
What this signals is an increasing sense of loosing the grip of power by The Son.

Poor Colin Powel was just saying OBVIOUS things.

temujin
09-22-2006, 06:44 PM
Russians "wiped" out terrorists in Afganistan for 10 years.

British also wiped out some more back then.

It's all a wiping up there.

With some 5 millions mines left behind.

temujin
09-22-2006, 06:54 PM
A couple Interior ministry guys are been prosecuted here for helping CIA law-abiding (American laws-abiding) officers kidnap a presumed islamic terrorist, that vanished from the very city where I live.

Apparently, there is no denial.

I don't know how that sells with the American Constitution, but I am unaware of any article in the ITALIAN Constitution where this act is possibly allowed.

Not that I care too much about this guy, actually, but the methods are VERY disturbing.
VERY.