Iraq Torture worse now than under Saddam

[cheguevara]

Iraq torture 'worse after Saddam'
BBC

Allegations of severe torture have regularly emerged from Iraq
Torture may be worse now in Iraq than under former leader Saddam Hussein, the UN's chief anti-torture expert says.
Manfred Nowak said the situation in Iraq was "out of control", with abuses being committed by security forces, militia groups and anti-US insurgents.

Bodies found in the Baghdad morgue "often bear signs of severe torture", said the human rights office of the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq in a report.

The wounds confirmed reports given by refugees from Iraq, Mr Nowak said.

He told journalists at a briefing in Geneva that he had yet to visit Iraq, but he was able to base his information on autopsies and interviews with Iraqis in neighbouring Jordan.

"What most people tell you is that the situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand," the Austrian law professor said.

"The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it has been in the times of Saddam Hussein," he added.

Brutal methods

The UN report says detainees' bodies often show signs of beating using electrical cables, wounds in heads and genitals, broken legs and hands, electric and cigarette burns.

Bodies found at the Baghdad mortuary "often bear signs of severe torture including acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances".

Many bodies have missing skin, broken bones, back, hands and legs, missing eyes, missing teeth and wounds caused by power drills or nails, the UN report says.

Victims come from prisons run by US-led multinational forces as well as by the ministries of interior and defence and private militias, the report said.

The most brutal torture methods were employed by private militias, Mr Nowak told journalists.

The report also says the frequency of sectarian bloodletting means bodies are often found which "bear signs indicating that the victims have been brutally tortured before their extra-judicial execution".

It concludes that torture threatens "the very fabric of the country" as victims exact their own revenge and fuel further violence.

Mr Nowak said he would like to visit Iraq in person, but the current situation would not allow him to prepare an accurate report, because it would not be safe to leave Baghdad's heavily guarded Green Zone where the Iraqi government and US leadership are situated.

[RandomGuy]

I saw that too. You beat me to it.

Kinda takes the wind out of the newest-grafted-on reason that Bush drones parrot for the war in the first place: "Iraqis are better off without Saddam".

That, like so many other discredited ideas about Iraq, just continually prove just how clueless the administration is about what it is doing in the world.

[Yonivore]

Iraq torture 'worse after Saddam'

Two words: plastics shredder.

[nkdlunch]

I heard there are tours to Iraq for sick ppl who pay to torture ppl for fun. kinda like Hostel. messed up shit, great spread of democracy by our president.

[01Snake]

I heard there are tours to Iraq for sick ppl who pay to torture ppl for fun. kinda like Hostel. messed up shit, great spread of democracy by our president.

Riiight. I heard Lebron James is suiting up for the Spurs next year too and will play for free. I'm soooo happy!

[Yonivore]

I heard there are tours to Iraq for sick ppl who pay to torture ppl for fun. kinda like Hostel. messed up shit, great spread of democracy by our president.
I've heard their are horrendous sweat shops in primarily democratic congressional districts in Los Angeles and Chicago. Wait, I haven't heard that, it's actually been on the news.

What you're describing are, actually, law enforcement issues for the new Democratic government of Iraq to address. Just like we address our crime, I'm confident they will find a way to address theirs -- just as soon as their get a handle on the car bombers.

[nkdlunch]

I've heard their are horrendous sweat shops in primarily democratic congressional districts in Los Angeles and Chicago. Wait, I haven't heard that, it's actually been on the news.

u are actually comparing a sweatshop to a torture chamber where body parts are removed from the live victims???



What you're describing are, actually, law enforcement issues for the new Democratic government of Iraq to address. Just like we address our crime, I'm confident they will find a way to address theirs -- just as soon as their get a handle on the car bombers.

Pontius Pilate, is that you?

good call, Bush will probably wash his hands on this issue as well.

But wasn't the plan from the Bush administration to remove Saddam and help build a stable democratic goverment in Iraq??? how can u have a stable democratic goverment if ppl get tortured worse than under the "terrible dictator"?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

:lol :lol :lol :depressed

That is the laughter of despair, btw.

So, let's see. 150,000 dead, infrastructure destroyed, country in state of civil war AND the torture is a bad as before! Poor freakin Iraqis!

Who didn't see this thing going the way of Vietnam?

Why do we never learn?

[PixelPusher]

What you're describing are, actually, law enforcement issues for the new Democratic government of Iraq to address. Just like we address our crime, I'm confident they will find a way to address theirs -- just as soon as their get a handle on the car bombers.

Yeah, it'll be all peaches 'n cream after we round up those pesky car bombers.

According to the generals on the ground that Bush claims to listen to, the insurgency is being overshadowed by the "not-a-civil-war" violence between the Sunni's and Shia, as well as some old fashioned crime, like rape and kidnapping, that take place in sectors designated by the U.S. military as "secure", since they can drive a Humvee with a 50 caliber mount through the streets and no one attacks them.

The fact that many of the death squads are made up of uniformed Iraqi police doesn't help this "law enforcement issue" either.

[smeagol]

No matter what anybody says, Yoni is here to defend this Administration (the same way Dan and Boutons are here to attack it).

[Yonivore]

No matter what anybody says, Yoni is here to defend this Administration (the same way Dan and Boutons are here to attack it).
In this mater yes.

There are plenty of issues over which I disagree with this administration. Our foreign policy, vis-a-vis, Iraq and the overall war on terror isn't one of them.

[RandomGuy]

"Pay no attention to the disaster behind the curtain". :rolleyes:

[boutons_]

Good old Yoni, down on his knees servicing dubya, dickhead, rummy, and all dubya's cowboys. The HUGE Repug (Iraq) elephant in the room, and Yoni's sucking that one off, too.

[George W Bush]

rumor has it racism exists in primarily repulican congresional districts in the South and Midwest

My old stomping grounds. :tu

[Yonivore]

rumor has it racism exists in primarily repulican congresional districts in the South and Midwest
Exactly...these are all rumors. Thanks for making my point.

[boutons_]

It is well-known by political analysts the Repugs' rise in the south is directly related to Atwater/Rove types making hidden appeals to racism in the South.

And of course, a key Repug campaign tactic is to intimidate and disenfranchise as many blacks as possible.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I'm almost tempted to take Yoni off "Ignore" to get a good laugh at his desperate attempts to defend the bush admin.

[boutons_]

Yoni is martyring himself for his false prophet al-Dubaya :lol

=======

dubya FINALLY goes before the NAACP and sticks his boot in his mouth:

"I value the black vote"

... while the blacks were wondering :

"But does he value the black PEOPLE?"

The Repugs aren't the main home of racism today? GMAFB

[SA210]

"I value the black vote"


:lol What a moron.

[01Snake]

Yoni is martyring himself for his false prophet al-Dubaya :lol

=======

dubya FINALLY goes before the NAACP and sticks his boot in his mouth:

"I value the black vote"

... while the blacks were wondering :

"But does he value the black PEOPLE?"

The Repugs aren't the main home of racism today? GMAFB

What exactly does GW need to do to show the black people he "values" them? Please enlighten us.
:rolleyes

[SA210]

Well, this disaster didn't help him any.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/bush_no_missionaccomplished.jpg

[01Snake]

Well, this disaster didn't help him any.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/bush_no_missionaccomplished.jpg

Yep, that was ALL GW's doing wasn't it?

[George W Bush]

Yep, that was ALL GW's doing wasn't it?

Who leaked this information!

[DFW Spurs]

Wow I guess there are no moderates on this board. Either you're a fat right leaning elephant or a left leaning jack ass... Politics in this country is out of control... Do you really think dems or repubs care about what the citizens of this country want... No they're constantly telling us what we are interested in or what's best for us. Its in my opinion that everyone has their own opinion and because we are forcing our beliefs down each others throats we have forgotten tolerance and duty to this country. To our right to free will. All we have are career politicians who are out of touch with Americans unless we send large contributions to their parties... It’s a plutocracy... Everyone wants to complain but they do not seek action in their communities... It’s easy to hide behind your beliefs on a message board... But will you stand up for your beliefs out in the streets? Probably not... We are all guilty and I'm not excluding myself... Truth of the matter is everyone is afraid of change... the status quo is easier to deal with than the changing of the guard... Where every you pledge your allegiance just remember... We are all Americans here... And we need a change... Its starts with "W's" and "Clintons’"... They all need to go...

:soapbox:

[clambake]

Clinton is gone. Let's start with W.

I pity the fool who has to clean up after this guy. An impossible task. If there is anything left to clean. We will have to do it alone and surrounded by those that despise us. Not the best place to begin a new start. You're right. We are all in this together. We should have acted sooner.

[Yonivore]

Clinton is gone. Let's start with W.

I pity the fool who has to clean up after this guy. An impossible task. If there is anything left to clean. We will have to do it alone and surrounded by those that despise us. Not the best place to begin a new start. You're right. We are all in this together. We should have acted sooner.
I think that if we hadn't had this President in office at this time, there may not have been a successor or, at the very least, we'd of been in much, much worse shape than his successor will find things on January 21, 2009.

[clambake]

Then tell us what would have happened, Yoni?

Enlighten me on my premature death and how it occured. I'll get a snack, sit back and anxiously await for the information on how Mr. Bush saved our lives. Please be specific.

[Yonivore]

Then tell us what would have happened, Yoni?

Enlighten me on my premature death and how it occured. I'll get a snack, sit back and anxiously await for the information on how Mr. Bush saved our lives. Please be specific.
It would all be speculative. And, who said you'd be dead? Maybe you'd just be a Dhimmi.

But, instead, I think I'll wait for the answer from all those who have said Al Gore or John Kerry would have done things better to be specific on exactly what they would have (or would not have) done differently than President Bush.

Enjoy your snack.

[boutons_]

Yoni plays the "mushroom cloud" BS, as if dubya were only impediment possible against OBL nuking the USA into the stone age. you fucking, ridiculous, risible fool. :lol

dubya will actually be leaving the world and USA in much worse shape when he leaves office, by his own murderous, deceitful choices.

[clambake]

I don't think I've ever seen Yoni dodge and backtrack like this before.

[Yonivore]

I don't think I've ever seen Yoni dodge and backtrack like this before.
Cool, new experience for you. You're welcome.

Now, define "dodge" and "backtrack," in the context of my posts. And, please, be specific.

[clambake]

"Without Bush there may not have been a successor"

I asked for more, you left the plate empty. I just want to know why you might believe this statement. I'm not trying to insult you by asking for clarification. I'm genuinely interested in why you believe this.

[xrayzebra]

Yoni plays the "mushroom cloud" BS, as if dubya were only impediment possible against OBL nuking the USA into the stone age. you fucking, ridiculous, risible fool. :lol

dubya will actually be leaving the world and USA in much worse shape when he leaves office, by his own murderous, deceitful choices.

And the Dimm-o-craps answer to all our problems.
"it's bushs fault". And also your answer.

Damn I love it when the village idiots come out
to play.

[xrayzebra]

"Without Bush there may not have been a successor"

I asked for more, you left the plate empty. I just want to know why you might believe this statement. I'm not trying to insult you by asking for clarification. I'm genuinely interested in why you believe this.

Simple answer. Bush did something about
Americans being attacked and killed. What has
your party done or would do. Cut and run, is
the only answer I have heard. Oh, yes, one of
your idols said re-deploy to Okinawa. Yeah,
some really smart people in the dimm-o-craps.

[clambake]

I bet Yoni is really proud of the way you murdered his statement.

Don't let this person speak for you. You deserve better.

[clambake]

Xray, I don't have a party. But feel free to label me. I'm not at all bothered by the way you think about things.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't think I've ever seen Yoni dodge and backtrack like this before.You haven't been paying attention.

[boutons_]

September 25, 2006
Op-Ed Contributor

Do Unto Your Enemy...

By PAUL RIECKHOFF

IN 2002, I attended the Infantry Officer Basic Course at Fort Benning, Ga. At “the Schoolhouse,” every new Army infantry officer spent six months studying the basics of his craft, including the rules of war.

I remember a seasoned senior officer explaining the importance of the Geneva Conventions. He said, “When an enemy fighter knows he’ll be treated well by United States forces if he is captured, he is more likely to give up.”

A year later on the streets of Baghdad, I saw countless insurgents surrender when faced with the prospect of a hot meal, a pack of cigarettes and air-conditioning. America’s moral integrity was the single most important weapon my platoon had on the streets of Iraq. It saved innumerable lives, encouraged cooperation with our allies and deterred Iraqis from joining the growing insurgency.

But those days are over. America’s moral standing has eroded, thanks to its flawed rationale for war and scandals like Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo and Haditha. The last thing we can afford now is to leave Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions open to reinterpretation, as President Bush proposed to do and can still do under the compromise bill that emerged last week.

Blurring the lines on the letter of Article 3 — it governs the treatment of prisoners of war, prohibiting “violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture” and “outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment” — will only make our troops’ tough fight even tougher. It will undermine the power of all the Geneva Conventions, immediately endanger American troops captured by the enemy and create a powerful recruiting tool for Al Qaeda.

But the fight over Article 3 concerns not only Al Qaeda and the war in Iraq. It also affects future wars, because when we lower the bar for the treatment of our prisoners, other countries feel justified in doing the same. Four years ago in Liberia, in an attempt to preserve his corrupt authority, President Charles Taylor adopted the Bush administration’s phrase “unlawful combatants” to describe prisoners he wished to try outside of civilian courts. Today Mr. Taylor stands before The Hague accused of war crimes.

It is not hard to imagine that one of our Special Forces soldiers might one day be captured by Iranian forces while investigating a potential nuclear weapons program. What is to stop that soldier from being water-boarded, locked in a cold room for days without sleep as Iranian pop music blares all around him — and finally sentenced to die without a fair trial or the right to see the evidence against him?

If America continues to erode the meaning of the Geneva Conventions, we will cede the ground upon which to prosecute dictators and warlords. We will also become unable to protect our troops if they are perceived as being no more bound by the rule of law than dictators and warlords themselves.

The question facing America is not whether to continue fighting our enemies in Iraq and beyond but how to do it best. My soldiers and I learned the hard way that policy at the point of a gun cannot, by itself, create democracy. The success of America’s fight against terrorism depends more on the strength of its moral integrity than on troop numbers in Iraq or the flexibility of interrogation options.

Several Republican combat veterans, including former Secretary of State Colin Powell and Senators Lindsay Graham, John McCain and John Warner, have recognized that the president’s stance on Article 3 is a threat to our troops and to our interests. It would be insulting for the president to assume he knows more about war than they do.

But the compromise the president struck with the senators last week leaves the most significant questions unresolved. The veterans must hold their ground — and the White House must recognize that our troops need all the moral authority they can get.


Paul Rieckhoff,the executive director of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, isthe author of “Chasing Ghosts: A Soldier’s Fight for America From Baghdad to Washington.”

===============

Dammit to hell, where the fuck are all these pro-terrorist traitors like Rieckhoff coming from? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

[RandomGuy]

And the Dimm-o-craps answer to all our problems.
"it's bushs fault". And also your answer.

Damn I love it when the village idiots come out
to play.

This from someone who blames Clinton for everything.

Has Bush done anything wrong in the 6 years since he has been president?

As wrong as it is for Democrats to blame Bush for everything, it is equally wrong to blame him for nothing, is it not?

[nkdlunch]

I think that if we hadn't had this President in office at this time, there may not have been a successor or, at the very least, we'd of been in much, much worse shape than his successor will find things on January 21, 2009.


haha this is the funniest post. I guess Saddam would have sent his WMDs to anihilate the US. :lol