Spurs Offseason: an honest question...

[JMarkJohns]

I'm trying to put to gether a season preview for the site I mod and am wondering if I can get some insightful, honest answers with reguards to your guys offseason. Please, try to avoid the emotional responses of "Sucked Donkey Ass" or the like...

For whatever reason, I like Bonner a lot and feel he'll add an additional frontcourt scorer to your squad, something missing for quite a while. Elson was a steal, 'specially if Pops can hone his timing and Butler should be a high impact role player for years to come.

I understand that losing Mohammed and Nesterovic hurts, but both were frightningly inconsistant in Pops' system.

I guess my question is this: What is your opinion of these additions and subtractions and of the lot, who will step up as an impact player and why and which loss will hurt the most?

I know some here fear the Spurs are attempting to go small-ball, but I think with Oberto, Elson and Butler, that you're still pretty well stocked at the center position.

Thanks...

EDIT: Add another question: With all things considered (Dallas, Phoenix, Spurs offseason), what are your expectations (not hopes) for this coming season?

[Zunni]

I understand that losing Mohammed and Nesterovic hurts, but both were frightningly inconsistant in Pops' system.

Wrong. "Losing" Nazr and Rasho was addition by subtraction. The plusses of Elson and Butler are as follows: Elson is quick and athletic enough to NOT make the Spurs go small, and Butler presents a matchup problem on D for Dallas; Dirk would either have to guard Tim or Butler in the post, and he doesn't have the size. Butler is a LOAD.

[SpursWillOwn]

yes, elson makes me see light to the question of, Can we matchup with dallas if they go small??

[ChumpDumper]

I think there is alot of apprehension around here because for all their inconsistencies, Rasho and Nazr were known quantities in the Spurs' system. Rasho knew the defensive schemes very well and could block a shot or two a game, and Nazr could be a very strong rebounder and garbage scorer. Elson and Butler don't really seem to fit either mold at this point, and their signings may actually signal at least a partial abandonment of the offensive and defensive sets and philosphies that have been pretty succesful in the Duncan era. These changes may well be beneficial, and I'm not surprised a Sunfan could see them in a positive light. Many Spurfans agree, but many also had very specific notions about what was going to help this team and aren't afraid to say that the Spurs didn't meet their expectations this summer.

Me? I can see it going either way. Bonner would be a good addition in any case, but Elson and Butler are not good additions without the rather fundamental changes mentioned above, and it remains to be seen whether Pop can pull them off -- although the four guard lineup did do better than I expected in the playoffs. It's going to be an interesting year. We do seem to be building ourselves to counter Dallas and Phoenix now just as we did Utah and LA in the past. In doing so, we may have sacrificed some of our traditional effectiveness against the Shaqs and Yaos of the league, but it seems a choice had to be made.

[RC's Boss]

My opinion, we gave up 2 avg. centers for 2 "cheaper" ones. Rasho didn't learn the system overnight and didn't play much d b4 arriving here. These new guys won't be any different. Plus Nazr never got it (did hit the o glass well though). And while elson is no Mr. Finesse, I'm sure his fingers aren't slippery like Nazr's and when the ball swings his way w/ 12 seconds still on the shot clock he won't try to live out his "Hakeem Dreams" instead of passing the ball back out. I don't think Nazr accepted his role on offense well and never got the defense. Butler, while young, can score around the basket which is why I wouldn't start him. It gives us something we've never had if he can produce like he did in N.Y., and that's post scoring from the bench. Plus, unloading those contracts, keeps us in title contention w/ our current core 3 for at LEAST another 4 years and the flexibility to extend it up to possibly another 5...... GO SPURS, GO!

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

The least we can do is make it the west finals. Anything below that will be a dissappointment.

[ploto]

I think what perplexes me is why all the articles that analyze the Spurs off-season compare the cost of Rasho and Nazr to that of Butler and Elson- like there was not the option of keeping one and bringing in Butler. I thought the Spurs were espousing the idea of needing to be flexible enough to match up with all teams, but they have instead gone too far the other direction, in my humble opinion. I guess they believe that the need to match up with certain teams that employ a tradtional scoring center is not worth the cost of keeping someone around to guard those players, but I think they will pay for focusing so much on matching up to one certain style of play. As stated above, it seems unrealistic to believe that the defensive schemes that the Spurs have long employed will be successful with the players signed this off-season. Supposedly, the big men are supposed to defend, block shots, and rebound and none of these new big men seem to be able to do any of that well. On the other hand, I actually believe that Rasho and Nazr combined did do this-- each did half of what the Spurs wanted their center to do-- Rasho defensively and Nazr rebounding and garbage points wise. It will take some time for me to believe that any of the current big men outside Tim will be able to do even that. It's a fact that in a season where Tim was hurt and Manu was hurt that the team won a franchise record number of games with Rasho and Nazr playing a combined 36 minutes per game-- averaging 10.7ppg; 9 rpg; and shooting a combined 51%. My other fear for the Spurs is that there will be yet another season of musical chairs with the big men. I still think that was a big mistake the Spurs made last season.

[ChumpDumper]

Supposedly, the big men are supposed to defend, block shots, and rebound and none of these new big men seem to be able to do any of that well. On the other hand, I actually believe that Rasho and Nazr combined did do this-- each did half of what the Spurs wanted their center to do-- Rasho defensively and Nazr rebounding and garbage points wise.For $13 million though?
It's a fact that in a season where Tim was hurt and Manu was hurt that the team won a franchise record number of games with Rasho and Nazr playing a combined 36 minutes per game-- averaging 10.7ppg; 9 rpg; and shooting a combined 51%.Yeah, and the team was a Manu foul away from beating Dallas with those two playing a combined nine minutes a game. I said before Rasho had gotten to the point where his contract was expendable; had either center played up to his contract, there would have been no musical chairs last season and at least one would still be here.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

And that's why Oberto is gonna lead the team with only 2.5 a year. :smokin

[ploto]

For $13 million though?
I said they could have kept one-- not both. That is my whole point. Why do people ALWAYS throw out their combined salary? What about Nazr and Butler for $7.4M? Or Rasho and Butler for $9.4M?

Who is going to guard Shaq- or Yao- or Ilgauskas?

Which player alongside Duncan will defend Brand and Kaman-- Camby and Martin-- Howard and Milicic--Okur and Boozer-- Krstic and Jefferson --or for that matter Bosh and Nesterovic?

I see a real problem defensively anytime the Spurs play a team with two decent big men as offensive options. The team has always had the luxury of putting Duncan on the less potent one. In this past season more and more that was the center and Rasho would end up covering the PF (eg, Bosh, Howard, Garnett...) So in these match-ups will we use Elson as the primary big defender-- because I don't see small ball as the answer.

[ploto]

Yeah, and the team was a Manu foul away from beating Dallas with those two playing a combined nine minutes a game.
And maybe had Rasho and Nazr played more minutes then the Spurs might have ACTUALLY WON!! Justifying the tactic employed only works if it was successful- and it wasn't.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I said they could have kept one-- not both. That is my whole point. Why do people ALWAYS throw out their combined salary? What about Nazr and Butler for $7.4M? Or Rasho and Butler for $9.4M?

Who is going to guard Shaq- or Yao- or Ilgauskas?

Which player alongside Duncan will defend Brand and Kaman-- Camby and Martin-- Howard and Milicic--Okur and Boozer-- Krstic and Jefferson --or for that matter Bosh and Nesterovic?

I see a real problem defensively anytime the Spurs play a team with two decent big men as offensive options. The team has always had the luxury of putting Duncan on the less potent one. In this past season more and more that was the center and Rasho would end up covering the PF (eg, Bosh, Howard, Garnett...) So in these match-ups will we use Elson as the primary big defender-- because I don't see small ball as the answer.
Shaq,Yao,Ilgauskas-Duncan
Brand and Kaman-Horry.
Camby and Martin-Martin is frequently injured genius and will probably be traded or suspended by the team by then.
Howard and Milicic-You know you said Darko right?
Okur and Boozer-Okur shoots nothing but 3's against us so Boner can take him.
Krstic and Jefferson-Jefferson is a small forward so he'll be guarded by Manu or Bowen.
Bosh and Nesterovic-Rasho is probably the softest center there is. Anyone can take him.

[T Park]

Bosh and Nesterovic

oh dear.....

[ChumpDumper]

I said they could have kept one-- not both. That is my whole point. Why do people ALWAYS throw out their combined salary?Because you throw out their combined stats.
Who is going to guard Shaq- or Yao- or Ilgauskas?Here's what I don't get - you wanted for the Spurs to keep Rasho. Just say it. Don't pretend you would've been happy with keeping Nazr over Rasho.
Which player alongside Duncan will defend Brand and Kaman-- Camby and Martin-- Howard and Milicic--Okur and Boozer-- Krstic and Jefferson --or for that matter Bosh and Nesterovic?

I see a real problem defensively anytime the Spurs play a team with two decent big men as offensive options.Jefferson? You need to update your depth chart.

Anyway the whole point is Spurs basketball as you knew it is dead.
And maybe had Rasho and Nazr played more minutes then the Spurs might have ACTUALLY WON!! Justifying the tactic employed only works if it was successful- and it wasn't.And if we had Elson and Bonner and Butler we might have won too. That's why changes are made.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

You tell 'em Chump.

[ploto]

Duncan will not start the game covering those centers listed and since when can Horry cover Brand?

The point of all those pairings- including Chris & Rasho and Darko & Dwight- is who gets the KEY assignment- not who gets Rasho but who gets BOSH? Not who gets Darko, but who gets HOWARD? Because it won't be Duncan. Duncan will cover Rasho and Darko.

Do people really believe that Elson can cover Howard, Bosh, Brand, and Garnett-- in addition to Yao, Shaq, and Ilgauskas? Because that is the job of a Spurs big man who plays alongside Tim Duncan. Oh yeah- and Dirk and Amare, too.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Duncan will not start the game covering those centers listed and since when can Horry cover Brand?

The point of all those pairings- including Chris & Rasho and Darko & Dwight- is who gets the KEY assignment- not who gets Rasho but who gets BOSH? Not who gets Darko, but who gets HOWARD? Because it won't be Duncan. Duncan will cover Rasho and Darko.

Do people really believe that Elson can cover Howard, Bosh, Brand, and Garnett-- in addition to Yao, Shaq, and Ilgauskas? Because that is the job of a Spurs big man who plays alongside Tim Duncan. Oh yeah- and Dirk and Amare, too.
Why is it that Duncan will NOT guard Bosh and Howard? Because you said so?

[ploto]

You wanted for the Spurs to keep Rasho. Just say it.
For the Spurs sake- I think they should have kept Rasho.

For Rasho's sake, I am glad they didn't.

[ChumpDumper]

Duncan will not start the game covering those centers listed and since when can Horry cover Brand?Both Kaman and Brand lit us up last season. I don't see our doing a much worse job.
The point of all those pairings- including Chris & Rasho and Darko & Dwight- is who gets the KEY assignment- not who gets Rasho but who gets BOSH? Not who gets Darko, but who gets HOWARD? Because it won't be Duncan. Duncan will cover Rasho and Darko.Well, you have your answer then.
Do people really believe that Elson can cover Howard, Bosh, Brand, and Garnett-- in addition to Yao, Shaq, and Ilgauskas? Because that is the job of a Spurs big man who plays alongside Tim Duncan. Oh yeah- and Dirk and Amare, too.No one is expecting the new big men to guard them like Rasho. We are also not expecting them to have lead feet and a decided fear of dunking orange balls either. We'll see how it works out.

[ChumpDumper]

For the Spurs sake- I think they should have kept Rasho.

For Rasho's sake, I am glad they didn't.I hope he's worth what he's paid up there. He wasn't here.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

elliotfan - Darko is going to be fantastic this year. He and Howard are the next Duncan and Robinson (in two or three years), seriously.

I think this entire discussion is moot until we see what sort of ball we are going to play this year. I think, after last season and the changes we've made, that the style of Spurs basketball is about to change.

Also, why is everyone writing off a 20yo BIG big man with good feet from improving as a defender? Butler is young and long and big, he moves well, why the hell couldn't he develop into a great defender under Pop and Tim???

As for Elson... shucks, I dunno. I say bring in Kelvin Cato for the min (he's still out there, right?), and send Oberto to whoever the hell will take him off our hands. That would give us our floor-running big (Elson), our low-post developing big (Butler), and a banger (Cato).

As for impact players this year, the usual suspects. However I think Bonner will pleasantly surprise (he can knock down the 3, and for a perimeter guy he's not a terrible rebounder - about 7/40 mins). Also, Williams' 12-15 minutes a night of hustle will earn him plenty of home-town fans; he's Malik without the terrible jump shooting and mitten-hands.

I think this year's team is versatile, and if the big 3 have minimal injuries, should be close to as good as last year's Spurs. We are one of four teams (Mavs, Suns, Heat) with a great shot at the championship, although I can also see this being the year of the underdog and the Clippers going all the way (call me crazy, but I've called it...). Someone from the West wins it this year.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

elliotfan - Darko is going to be fantastic this year. He and Howard are the next Duncan and Robinson (in two or three years), seriously.
I think this entire discussion is moot until we see what sort of ball we are going to play this year. I think, after last season and the changes we've made, that the style of Spurs basketball is about to change.

Also, why is everyone writing off a 20yo BIG big man with good feet from improving as a defender? Butler is young and long and big, he moves well, why the hell couldn't he develop into a great defender under Pop and Tim???

As for Elson... shucks, I dunno. I say bring in Kelvin Cato for the min (he's still out there, right?), and send Oberto to whoever the hell will take him off our hands. That would give us our floor-running big (Elson), our low-post developing big (Butler), and a banger (Cato).
Let's wait until he's proven to say that.

[ChumpDumper]

As for Elson... shucks, I dunno. I say bring in Kelvin Cato for the min (he's still out there, right?), and send Oberto to whoever the hell will take him off our hands. That would give us our floor-running big (Elson), our low-post developing big (Butler), and a banger (Cato).Yeah, even Kandi -- some guys are much more attractive when they cost the minimum.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

No, Mr Elliot, the first bit I will say now. Darko will have a breakout year. See him in the last 20 games last year? The world championship?

The second part of my statement I will retract. D&D are the next version of the "Twin Towers" phenomonon... but no-one should be compared to OUR TTs, as they were the greatest ever. Fair enough?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Although I don't admit that Darko will be somewhat similar to the twin towers, he will have enough playing time to give himself a shot. Then there's a good chance of him making good use of it. Just like Beno.

[JMarkJohns]

Thanks to everyone who's added something so far. It's basically what I've figured. Some like the moves for various reasons while others dislike the moves for various reasons.

I still like San Antonio as the favorite going into the season. I think you were a Manu foul from potentially making a fourth Finals and you've done nothing to slip back. Maybe not take too many steps ahead, but certainly not slip back... health permitting.

Elson and Bonner will surprise. Of that I'm farely certain.

[T Park]

pretty bad when a Suns fan is more optimistic about the season, than the team's own fans.

[JMarkJohns]

pretty bad when a Suns fan is more optimistic about the season, than the team's own fans.

Hey, as a Suns fan, I'm a big believer in taking an "if you don't expect too much, you might not be let down" mentality with regards to your team...

Dreams are no fun when your home team repeatedly dashes them against a wall :bang

[my2sons]

i guess my biggest fear is that it normally takes a season for a player to adjust to pops system especially defensively and two new faces is what makes me a little nervous. for that reason alone i give oberto the early edge. If the new faces can catch on then i'll be a bit happier.

[JMarkJohns]

I don't know about this "takes a year" stuff. Nazr came in and got it right away en route to a Title. Mohammed certainly wasn't a smart player. His ability just fit. I see Elson as the same type of player. He's sat behind more talented players but has had solid impact when played. Given the minutes, I think he comes close to Nazr's 2005-06 averages of 6 points, 5 rebounds, 1 block...

Bonner should speak for himself, at least for those who follow basketball beyond the Spurs.

Butler is big, athletic and marginally skilled, but played pretty hard and knows how to score or rebound down low.

You still have Oberto for Shaq, Yao and Ilgauskas.

Plus, you've saved money for the future...

[T Park]

Once again, the Suns fan sees the good stuff.

[angel_luv]

I felt really confused this off season.

While I always assume that coach Popovich etc has a definite agenda, this summer seemed disorderly to me.
It felt to me that the decisions made about whom to bring in were incredibly random.
Granted, that was probably my fault as I know little to nothing about our newbies.
( I am in the process of fixing that.)

About our Centers:
I had absolutely no problem with Nazr walking.

Much as I'll miss him, I would rather Rasho play in Toronto then be stuck sitting on a bench here.

I know he didn't play much, but I am sad the Kiwi left. He's cool.

I am with holding judgement on the new Center canidates until I have seen them play a few games.

I'm happy about all our returning guys.
As for the team as a whole, I'm really looking forward to pre season where I expect to see everyone come together and play strong from the start.

[J.T.]

Not to mention that in addition to the new pieces, we have a chip on our shoulder after that very emotional game 7 loss. During the playoffs I felt like a lot of our guys were hurt, and we wouldn't have gotten as far as we did if Tim didn't step his game up more than he did in the season. I like our chances when we have 4 of the starting 5 returning and 5 returning bench players who are all going to be playing with that chip on their shoulders, plus all the new guys who have the hunger of being able to compete for their first title.

I like the moves we made. Butler will develop well in San Antonio I think. Elson isn't known as dominant or and enforcer, but if he can grab some boards and throw down some dunks for us, he's cool with me. I'm excited about Bonner too, hopefully he settles into a solid bench contributor.

[ChumpDumper]

I felt really confused this off season.

While I always assume that coach Popovich etc has a definite agenda, this summer seemed disorderly to me.
It felt to me that the decisions made about whom to bring in were incredibly random.
Granted, that was probably my fault as I know little to nothing about our newbies.
( I am in the process of fixing that.)

About our Centers:
I had absolutely no problem with Nazr walking.

Much as I'll miss him, I would rather Rasho play in Toronto then be stuck sitting on a bench here.

I know he didn't play much, but I am sad the Kiwi left. He's cool.

I am with holding judgement on the new Center canidates until I have seen them play a few games.

I'm happy about all our returning guys.
As for the team as a whole, I'm really looking forward to pre season where I expect to see everyone come together and play strong from the start.Well, in a nutshell, the Spurs have simultaneously put a premuim on athleticism and decided to pay their big men much closer to what they are worth. We don't know how it's going to work anymore than you do since we probably haven't seen anything like this from the Duncan-era Spurs before. Defintely makes things interesting.

[boutons_]

"Nazr came in and got it right away en route to a Title"

Absolutely not. Nazr "got it" not at all on defense, and was in the way on offense. This situation was a combinatoin of not learning the Spurs system AND having a BB IQ in single digits, and NO fundamentals.

[BigVee]

I doubt this team will be able to match last year's regular season record, but I think they have a good shot at going to the finals. I think they will start somewhat slowly, but as the new guys get more comfortable, they will be an improved team over last year. I think they will have an edge to them this year that we have not seen before. It just feels like every player on the team has something to prove this year. Can't wait to get started.

[FromWayDowntown]

I think you have to look at the offseason in the perspective of addressing the most glaring needs and, contrary to Angel's feeling of discombobulation, I think the Spurs have been quite orderly in going about their business and addressing multiple (and widely varying) needs.

In the aftermath of the Dallas series, it seemed clear to me that the Spurs needed to address a few things: (1) a wing player who can spread the floor on the offensive end and provide some length and athleticism on the defensive end against the longish 3's and perimeter-oriented 4's in the league; (2) a back-up point guard who can offer a net positive on either end of the floor; (3) more athleticism in the middle; (4) contracts that can provide either cap relief or attractive assets to make later deals; and (5) some youth.

I think they addressed needs 1 and 4-5 in acquiring Bonner and Eric Williams for Nesterovic. What Bonner actually will do remains to be seen, obviously. But given his track record, Bonner is a mobile, long-ish wing-oriented player who can offer some modicum of defensive presence against long wings who play outside. In addressing that need, as it particularly applies to #41 in Dallas, I think the Finals made clear that you don't necessarily have to have a Marion-type to get that job done. The length and athleticism of guys like Haslem and Walker were useful enough that Miami didn't have to bring constant doubles to effectively defend Dirk. If Bonner can give the Spurs 12-17 minutes per night of effective nuisance time, where they don't have to bring doubles and can slide Bowen to Howard or Terry (in a matchup with Dallas), they can be effective defensively. If Bonner, in those minutes, can spread the floor on the other end and create driving opportunities for Parker and Ginobili by bringing a big man out to the arc, he'll be effective. Bonner is a smart kid and he appears to be mentally tough to boot. That suggests to me that he's the sort of guy that Pop loves and I suspect he'll be extremely useful to the Spurs for that reason.

In getting Bonner, they got Eric Williams' expiring contract and managed to dump the last few years of the outrageously expensive Rasho Nesterovic Experience. If Williams never plays a minute for the Spurs, he can be exceedingly useful if his deal can be packaged with another moveable asset to address another need down the road. Even if that doesn't happen, the expiration of his deal is worth something to a club that was facing some economic choices down the road, particularly with so much invested in a center who's skill set is pretty much out of vogue in the modern NBA.

Dealing Rasho left the Spurs with a need in the middle, but that need existed already as #3 on my list. I think there are competing concerns with finding a center these days. Obviously, it appears that the Spurs needed someone who brings some athleticism to that spot; but they also need someone with bulk who can bang with the big boys. Other than Ben Wallace, no single guy on the free agent market this summer brought the ability to do both of those things. Przybilla was close, but he's frequently injured and hasn't shown me yet that he can play effectively over the course of an entire NBA season (to say nothing of getting it done at playoff time). Rather than overpay someone who might or might not be able to address the competing needs, the Spurs did the logical thing -- they acquired two guys who seem to fit each aspect of that need. Elson is obviously a long, athletic center who can give the Spurs good minutes against teams with long, athletic front lines. Butler is a project, but if he proves he can play, he's a bulky, strong center who should be able to lay a body on guys like Shaq. In the end, that can be enough.

Finally, while it's conceivable to me that the backup PG situation resolves itself with a renewed commitment to Beno Udrih, I think it was a wise (and understandable) decision to seek out a defensive-minded, pass-first backup who has played relatively well for a taskmaster before. One thing that really killed the Spurs in the Dallas series was the backsliding they did when Parker had to sit; Pop got to the point that he almost had to keep Parker on the floor (and burn him down as a result) because NVE just couldn't get it done anymore. In sheer net terms during the playoffs, the Spurs were +2.6 with Parker on the floor each night and -7.0 with Van Exel on the floor each night (I'm not sure what those numbers were for the Dallas series specifically). In a series that was as close as the Mavericks series was, that's a monumental (and costly) difference. If the Vaughn/Udrih combination can bring the backup numbers up even slightly it could be the difference between winning and losing a close series. If one of those two can play effectively enough to give Parker a few extra minutes of rest every night, the positive of Parker should increase as well. That, again, could make all of the difference.

I'm with the crowd that believes that as long as Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili are healthy, the Spurs are among the 2-3 best teams in the NBA. I think the main complimentary players (Bowen, Finley, Horry) have a great run left in them. And I think the Spurs have done a great job of creating means to improve their useful depth to compliment those groupsby signing players who fit very specific needs while adding flexibility to a roster that became really, really short when exposed at playoff time. It was a systematic and focused makeover that I hope (and think) will end up proving successful.

[leemajors]

you had me after the third paragraph!

[AdmiralMVP]

Duncan will not start the game covering those centers listed and since when can Horry cover Brand?

The point of all those pairings- including Chris & Rasho and Darko & Dwight- is who gets the KEY assignment- not who gets Rasho but who gets BOSH? Not who gets Darko, but who gets HOWARD? Because it won't be Duncan. Duncan will cover Rasho and Darko.

Do people really believe that Elson can cover Howard, Bosh, Brand, and Garnett-- in addition to Yao, Shaq, and Ilgauskas? Because that is the job of a Spurs big man who plays alongside Tim Duncan. Oh yeah- and Dirk and Amare, too.

You know what, who cares that we can't cover some of these guys? In 2004-05, Amare lit us up in the Western Finals. Did it really matter?

It doesn't matter if one guy beats us, it takes more than that to win a basketball game, especially to win 4 in a 7 game series. What does matter is if the entire opposing team beats us.

Also, we create match up problems for many teams, too.

[BeerIsGood!]

JMark - you wanted what the Spurs expectations are for this year, and here is mine:


The Spurs do have a number of new faces, but fortunately they are of the role player variety. Bonner is a player with size that can shoot, and that could prove helpful in drawing a defending big out of the paint from time to time. Could open things up inside for penetration, as well as increased room for TD to operate. I think Vaughn, Bonner, Williams, Elson, and Butler are going to be in a situation where they are not going to be relied upon for big production, and as such may be able to find their role on this team and perform well.

Much talk on this board has been dedicated to the back ups and role players, but the big question is going to be the health and peformance of four players... TD, Tony, Manu, and Finley. If TD, Tony, and Manu can stay practically injury free and head into the playoffs with a lot in the tank - watch out. The fact that the Spurs were a couple of seconds and a bad foul away from beating the Mavs with none of the Big 3 very healthy is amazing in itself. If they are healthy and the role players are filling the gaps, the sky is the limit for this team.

Prediction - The Spurs start slowly (compared to 2005-06) due to a new starting C and many new role players. Wins anywhere from 54 to 62 finishing 1st or 2nd in the West.

Biggest Challenger - Mavs

Dark Horses - Suns, Clippers

Anywhere from Western Conference Finals to NBA Champs is a reasonable expectation of this team - taking into account injuries, team chemistry, and new acquisitions during the season. As long as the Big 3 are healthy and performing this team will be successful.

[Phenomanul]

I think you have to look at the offseason in the perspective of addressing the most glaring needs and, contrary to Angel's feeling of discombobulation, I think the Spurs have been quite orderly in going about their business and addressing multiple (and widely varying) needs.

In the aftermath of the Dallas series, it seemed clear to me that the Spurs needed to address a few things: (1) a wing player who can spread the floor on the offensive end and provide some length and athleticism on the defensive end against the longish 3's and perimeter-oriented 4's in the league; (2) a back-up point guard who can offer a net positive on either end of the floor; (3) more athleticism in the middle; (4) contracts that can provide either cap relief or attractive assets to make later deals; and (5) some youth.

I think they addressed needs 1 and 4-5 in acquiring Bonner and Eric Williams for Nesterovic. What Bonner actually will do remains to be seen, obviously. But given his track record, Bonner is a mobile, long-ish wing-oriented player who can offer some modicum of defensive presence against long wings who play outside. In addressing that need, as it particularly applies to #41 in Dallas, I think the Finals made clear that you don't necessarily have to have a Marion-type to get that job done. The length and athleticism of guys like Haslem and Walker were useful enough that Miami didn't have to bring constant doubles to effectively defend Dirk. If Bonner can give the Spurs 12-17 minutes per night of effective nuisance time, where they don't have to bring doubles and can slide Bowen to Howard or Terry (in a matchup with Dallas), they can be effective defensively. If Bonner, in those minutes, can spread the floor on the other end and create driving opportunities for Parker and Ginobili by bringing a big man out to the arc, he'll be effective. Bonner is a smart kid and he appears to be mentally tough to boot. That suggests to me that he's the sort of guy that Pop loves and I suspect he'll be extremely useful to the Spurs for that reason.

In getting Bonner, they got Eric Williams' expiring contract and managed to dump the last few years of the outrageously expensive Rasho Nesterovic Experience. If Williams never plays a minute for the Spurs, he can be exceedingly useful if his deal can be packaged with another moveable asset to address another need down the road. Even if that doesn't happen, the expiration of his deal is worth something to a club that was facing some economic choices down the road, particularly with so much invested in a center who's skill set is pretty much out of vogue in the modern NBA.

Dealing Rasho left the Spurs with a need in the middle, but that need existed already as #3 on my list. I think there are competing concerns with finding a center these days. Obviously, it appears that the Spurs needed someone who brings some athleticism to that spot; but they also need someone with bulk who can bang with the big boys. Other than Ben Wallace, no single guy on the free agent market this summer brought the ability to do both of those things. Przybilla was close, but he's frequently injured and hasn't shown me yet that he can play effectively over the course of an entire NBA season (to say nothing of getting it done at playoff time). Rather than overpay someone who might or might not be able to address the competing needs, the Spurs did the logical thing -- they acquired two guys who seem to fit each aspect of that need. Elson is obviously a long, athletic center who can give the Spurs good minutes against teams with long, athletic front lines. Butler is a project, but if he proves he can play, he's a bulky, strong center who should be able to lay a body on guys like Shaq. In the end, that can be enough.

Finally, while it's conceivable to me that the backup PG situation resolves itself with a renewed commitment to Beno Udrih, I think it was a wise (and understandable) decision to seek out a defensive-minded, pass-first backup who has played relatively well for a taskmaster before. One thing that really killed the Spurs in the Dallas series was the backsliding they did when Parker had to sit; Pop got to the point that he almost had to keep Parker on the floor (and burn him down as a result) because NVE just couldn't get it done anymore. In sheer net terms during the playoffs, the Spurs were +2.6 with Parker on the floor each night and -7.0 with Van Exel on the floor each night (I'm not sure what those numbers were for the Dallas series specifically). In a series that was as close as the Mavericks series was, that's a monumental (and costly) difference. If the Vaughn/Udrih combination can bring the backup numbers up even slightly it could be the difference between winning and losing a close series. If one of those two can play effectively enough to give Parker a few extra minutes of rest every night, the positive of Parker should increase as well. That, again, could make all of the difference.

I'm with the crowd that believes that as long as Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili are healthy, the Spurs are among the 2-3 best teams in the NBA. I think the main complimentary players (Bowen, Finley, Horry) have a great run left in them. And I think the Spurs have done a great job of creating means to improve their useful depth to compliment those groupsby signing players who fit very specific needs while adding flexibility to a roster that became really, really short when exposed at playoff time. It was a systematic and focused makeover that I hope (and think) will end up proving successful.

And to that we should add that the retention of Sam Presti was as big an offseason move as the other ones we made this offseason...

[Bruno]

BTW, Do you think that Bonner or Elson will be able to defend on Dirk quite decently ?

[JMarkJohns]

"Nazr came in and got it right away en route to a Title"

Absolutely not. Nazr "got it" not at all on defense, and was in the way on offense. This situation was a combinatoin of not learning the Spurs system AND having a BB IQ in single digits, and NO fundamentals.

Huh?! You won a Title with him as a spot-starter at center and he was very good in many games. Last year his flaws got in the way, but that first year, his ability just fit better with what the Spurs both wanted to and were able to do.

I never said he got it mentally. In fact, I referenced his low basketball IQ in that very same post. What he got, was plenty of consistant playing time and situations where he could successfully contribute without doing much. His role was simple, but it worked. He averaged 7 points, 7 rebounds and a block a game in the playoffs in 2004-05 vs. Denver, Seattle, Phoenix and Detroit. That's pretty good for a player with just 23 games of preperation.

So please... Don't tell me he didn't "Get it", because his stats and your Title beg to differ.

[FromWayDowntown]

BTW, Do you think that Bonner or Elson will be able to defend on Dirk quite decently ?

I suspect we'll find out a little bit about Bonner in that role on opening night.

[Kori Ellis]

So please... Don't tell me he didn't "Get it", because his stats and your Title beg to differ.

He didn't get it. :lol The Spurs won the title inspite of him, but he never got it while he was here. Always in wrong position offensively and never had a clue defensively.


You still have Oberto for Shaq, Yao and Ilgauskas.

:lol

I'm not sure what that means. Oberto is the smallest of our bigs. What would he do against those guys?

[JMarkJohns]

That's fine. I respect opinions of others in reguards to Nazr. I'm going to defer to Spurs fans in this regard, but will do so saying the following: I've seen Pop coach for years. He doesn't take lax play or incompetance. If Nazr was as inept as some here claim - that he never got it (with it, in my case, being role on the team) - then I find it very difficult to believe Pops would play him an average of 23 minutes a game, nor do I think Nazr would be capable of putting up 7-7-1 averages. Compare to Rasho's 15 games, 7.6 minute per game average.

Oberto is small, but he's a solid center and has experience and playing time within the system, so he's the smarter and more sure of the centers.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

you had me after the third paragraph!

:lmao

Good job, FromWayDowntown. I think that's a pretty decent assessment of the plan and its execution. Now if we could exchange Oberto for Cato and trade Williams' expiring $4mil for Bonzi, we'd have had a stellar A+ offseason. As it is, they are a solid B+/A- so far.

[boutons_]

"average of 23 minutes a game,"

Nazr started but didn't play even 2 qtrs? indicates to me his time on floor was not valued much.

Somebody had to be out there to make 5 players, and Nazr and Rasho split the space-filling chore. The fact that neither Rasho or Nazr are Spurs now says how much Pop valued them.

[RC's Boss]

That's fine. I respect opinions of others in reguards to Nazr. I'm going to defer to Spurs fans in this regard, but will do so saying the following: I've seen Pop coach for years. He doesn't take lax play or incompetance. If Nazr was as inept as some here claim - that he never got it (with it, in my case, being role on the team) - then I find it very difficult to believe Pops would play him an average of 23 minutes a game, nor do I think Nazr would be capable of putting up 7-7-1 averages. Compare to Rasho's 15 games, 7.6 minute per game average.

Oberto is small, but he's a solid center and has experience and playing time within the system, so he's the smarter and more sure of the centers.
His rebounding kept him in the game during the championship season. But other than that, he was never solid defensively. Rasho was solid on d in the post, but was waaaaay to slow. I understand what you're saying. I truly feel w/ out the Malik trade for Nazr, we would have lost to Detroit. A team like that required rebounding, but a team like Dallas, PHX, and SAC have 3's that rebound like 4 and 5's. They jump w/ a quicker take off which is something neither Rasho nor Nazr could do. I also think Butler and Elson are better offensively. Rasho sucked on O and Nazr scared me whenever he got the ball. He was most productive w/ putbacks, but other than that, all his shots were pure damn luck. The only thing I hate about Nazr leaving was the fact we couldn't trade him for a Jared Jeffries Jumaine Jones type of player (not that those guys were available for S&T situations, but you get the picture... long SF!

[JMarkJohns]

"average of 23 minutes a game,"

Nazr started but didn't play even 2 qtrs? indicates to me his time on floor was not valued much.

Somebody had to be out there to make 5 players, and Nazr and Rasho split the space-filling chore. The fact that neither Rasho or Nazr are Spurs now says how much Pop valued them.

You should brush up a bit more on player rotation and impact because this is pretty ignorant, considering in the 2002-03 postseason, David Robinson started at center, yet played little more than 20 minutes a game while posting very similer averages of 7+ points, 6+ rebounds and 1+ blocks.

Not comparing the player, but merely the situation. If Nazr's 23 MPG, 7 ppg, 7 rpg, 1 bpg can be scoffed at with regards to his role within a rotation and on-court impact, then what should we make of Robinson's?

Probably significantly higher an impact, right?

Why? Because he was David Robinson?

Each player had limitations, yet each made roughly the same contributions within the same amount of playing time to exactly the same cause: a 23-game playoff series ending with a Title.

I'll try to stop overvaluing Nazr (which is very odd, since I say you'll likely get to the Finals next year without him) if you stop belittle his contribution to the point where his production is passed off as laughable.

[ploto]

BTW, Do you think that Bonner or Elson will be able to defend on Dirk quite decently ?
That was part of my question. Many people have claimed that getting Elson will keep the Spurs from having to go small but that must mean that they believe that Elson can guard Dirk. I just don't see that. And Bonner- even less so. Personally, I think Oberto should get that chance. He does pretty well on Gasol, too. As for the person who claimed Oberto is an experienced centre-- for his national team, yes, but not for the Spurs. Oberto has almost exclusively played PF for the Spurs.

[Kori Ellis]

Neither Bonner nor Elson have any rep of being a decent defender. There's probably a better chance old Eric Williams could guard Dirk than either of those two.

As always, the Spurs will end up guarding Dirk by committee.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Oberto is gonna tear it up this year. :smokin

[ploto]

Bosh and Nesterovic-Rasho is probably the softest center there is. Anyone can take him.

Just a reminder-- I know it is old, but just to make a point.




Nov. 24 (Ticker) -- Rasho Nesterovic may be the least likely candidate to outplay Tim Duncan and David Robinson, but it has been that kind of season for the Minnesota Timberwolves.

Nesterovic had a career-high 24 points and 12 rebounds and Terrell Brandon scored 21 points as the Timberwolves avoided their first losing streak of the season with a 99-94 victory over the San Antonio Spurs.

Nesterovic entered the game averaging 8.9 points and 6.1 rebounds but stepped up his game against the league's best frontcourt duo. He made 12-of-23 shots and pulled down eight offensive rebounds.

"I was just trying to get to free areas when they left the basket open," Nesterovic said. "This team has so many good players, I just try to play good defense. Tonight they may have been concentrating on (Kevin Garnett) and (Joe Smith)."

"The most important thing about Rasho's night wasn't the 24 points or 12 rebounds, it was that he had 23 shots," Minnesota coach Flip Saunders said. "There have been times he's had 23 shots after two games, let alone one. He's continuing to get better and better. This was a huge test for him and he played extremely well.

Nesterovic also had Robinson, a four-time All-Defensive First Team selection, baffled.

"He was great," Robinson said. "He was the X factor. I'm just going to have to do a better job, next time we play them, of defending him."

The Timberwolves trailed, 46-39, with 1:38 left in the first half before going on a 19-4 surge to build a 58-50 lead with 9:12 remaining in the third quarter.

Smith scored nine of his 11 points during the run and gave Minnesota the lead for good with a 3-pointer at the halftime buzzer.

Kevin Garnett had 17 points, 12 rebounds and four blocks and Wally Szczerbiak added 13 points and seven assists for the Wolves.

After missing all 10 of his shots in the first half, Duncan finished with 21 points on 7-of-20 shooting and grabbed 18 rebounds. Robinson added 17 points and six boards.

"I played a horrible first half but I thought the team did an excellent job finding other way to score," Duncan said. "We found a way to stay in the game but you can't have halves like that, not in my position."

Rookie Tony Parker scored 19 points Antonio Daniels chipped in 12 for San Antonio, which shot 40 percent (33-of-81) and had a seven-game winning streak snapped.

"The key was our defense was solid," Saunders said. "If we can continue to hold teams to 40 percent, change defenses with zoens and man and keep them off balance, we're going to have some success."

The Timberwolves seemed to be pulling away late in the third quarter when Anthony Peeler, who scored 10 points off the bench, nailed a 3-pointer to give them a 74-63 lead with 1:07 to go.

But Daniels responded with a 3-pointer before the period expired and Duncan matched Minnesota shot-for-shot, scoring the first 12 points of the fourth quarter for the Spurs.

San Antonio closed to 95-91 on a free throw by Robinson with 3:44 left, but Szczerbiak answered with a jumper. A jumper by Steve Smith again cut the deficit to four, but Szczerbiak responded again with a short jump shot.

Minnesota led, 93-84, with with 2:18 remaining, but Parker's 3-pointer capped a 7-2 burst to make it 95-91 with 31 seconds left. Brandon sank two free throws and, after a layup by Parker, Szczerbiak added two more to seal the victory.
http://www.nba.com/games/20011124/SASMIN/recap.html

[angel_luv]

:)

[FromWayDowntown]

If only Rasho would have played with that sort of effort and confidence 82 nights a year . . . errrrr, 41 nights . . . errrrr, 20 nights . . . errrrr, 10 nights

[angel_luv]

Don't be like that.

[FromWayDowntown]

Don't be like that.

Like what? Honest?

I rooted for Rasho while he was here and supported his signing when it happened, but it's very easy to become frustrated with the inconsistency of Rasho's play and effort.

[BeerIsGood!]

Just a reminder-- I know it is old, but just to make a point.

The sun is gonna shine on every dog's ass at least one day.

[withcheese]

"He was great," Robinson said. "He was the X factor. I'm just going to have to do a better job, next time we play them, of defending him."

god i miss david...i think at the age of 41 he'd be a better starting center than elson or butler...bringing those guys off the bench and playing them each 14 minutes per night while starting dave at c and playing him 20 minutes. please please please david come back...even at 38, with a bad back, that guy was the number 3 or 4 post defender in the L. now that hes had a couple years to rest, maybe hed have a little spring in his step if he came back for a year. anyone wanna sign a petition