IAEA: Not 377 tons, at least 138 less, maybe none

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Talk about blowing up in your face...

http://www.abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=204304&page=1


The information on which the Iraqi Science Ministry based an Oct. 10 memo in which it reported that 377 tons of RDX explosives were missing — presumably stolen due to a lack of security — was based on "declaration" from July 15, 2002. At that time, the Iraqis said there were 141 tons of RDX explosives at the facility.

But the confidential IAEA documents obtained by ABC News show that on Jan. 14, 2003, the agency's inspectors recorded that just over 3 tons of RDX was stored at the facility — a considerable discrepancy from what the Iraqis reported.

The IAEA documents could mean that 138 tons of explosives were removed from the facility long before the start of the United States launched "Operation Iraqi Freedom" in March 2003.

The IAEA documents from January 2003 found no discrepancy in the amount of the more dangerous HMX explosives thought to be stored at Al-Qaqaa, but they do raise another disturbing possibility.

The documents show IAEA inspectors looked at nine bunkers containing more than 194 tons of HMX at the facility. Although these bunkers were still under IAEA seal, the inspectors said the seals may be potentially ineffective because they had ventilation slats on the sides. These slats could be easily removed to remove the materials inside the bunkers without breaking the seals, the inspectors noted.

So, basically the IAEA posits that at the most there was 239 tons of explosives, and that there very well could have been just *3*.

Damn, sucks to be John Kerry.

[exstatic]

Damn, sucks to be John Kerry.

He had bad intel. Isn't that absolution? :fro

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Touche.

[Uncle Donnie]

He had bad intel. Isn't that absolution? :fro

Of course, conceding that as a valid excuse basically invalidates Kerry's entire position on the war. :spin

[Nbadan]

The IAEA documents from January 2003 found no discrepancy in the amount of the more dangerous HMX explosives

Details, details, details. There were still tons of the more dangerous HMX explosives at the facility.

[Marcus Bryant]

Note the date assmunch. Also its funny how you seem to miss the point that Saddam Hussein was in possession of hundreds of thousands of tons of explosives prior to the invasion.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Details, details, details. There were still tons of the more dangerous HMX explosives at the facility.

Did you miss this part...


The documents show IAEA inspectors looked at nine bunkers containing more than 194 tons of HMX at the facility. Although these bunkers were still under IAEA seal, the inspectors said the seals may be potentially ineffective because they had ventilation slats on the sides. These slats could be easily removed to remove the materials inside the bunkers without breaking the seals, the inspectors noted.


They basically acknowledged that their own sanction methods could easily be circumvented.

The date on this was also in January, a few months prior to the US invasion. Between this report and the story on the Russian troops, think it doesnt's take much to figure out where the rest went.

[Yonivore]

I just wonder when Nbadanallah and the rest of the world are going to realize that France, Germany, Russia, and the U.N. were involved in a huge scandal involving aid and comfort to Saddam Hussein throughout the past 10 years...

If there's a conspiracy afoot is them trying to bring down Bush so they don't have their dirty laundry aired -- which, I'm certain would happen in a second Bush term.

[Nbadan]

Note the date assmunch.

So what, it doesn't prove that they weren't there after the U.S. invaded.


Also its funny how you seem to miss the point that Saddam Hussein was in possession of hundreds of thousands of tons of explosives prior to the invasion.

These materials, while restricted by the I.A.E.A., where not anything that Saddam had failed to claim to possess under U.N. Security Council Guidelines and the armstices with the U.S. after GW1.

[Nbadan]

The date on this was also in January, a few months prior to the US invasion. Between this report and the story on the Russian troops, think it doesnt's take much to figure out where the rest went

Then prove it and quit making wild conjunctures.

[Yonivore]

So what, it doesn't prove that they weren't there after the U.S. invaded.



These materials, while restricted by the I.A.E.A., where not anything that Saddam had failed to claim to possess under U.N. Security Council Guidelines and the armstices with the U.S. after GW1.
The U.S. (Duelfer) had been imploring the U.N. to force the destruction of these very explosives since 1995.

Really, Nbadanallah, to what extent are you willing to go to defend these bastards? You're one sick puppy.

[Marcus Bryant]

It doesn't prove that those weapons were there when the US invaded, and that is your argument.


These materials, while restricted by the I.A.E.A., where not anything that Saddam had failed to claim to possess under U.N. Security Council Guidelines and the armstices with the U.S. after GW1.

Yes of course he had the materials. But he wasn't supposed to have them per those agreements.

[Nbadan]

I just wonder when Nbadanallah and the rest of the world are going to realize that France, Germany, Russia, and the U.N. were involved in a huge scandal involving aid and comfort to Saddam Hussein throughout the past 10 years...

If there's a conspiracy afoot is them trying to bring down Bush so they don't have their dirty laundry aired -- which, I'm certain would happen in a second Bush term.

The U.S. was doing the same thing. In fact, we supplied Saddam with chemical and biological cultures to help create is WMD arsenal. U.S. companies were also circumventing the Food-for-oil program with vouchers from the Iraqi Government that were traded like currency on the open market.

[Nbadan]

It doesn't prove that those weapons were there when the US invaded, and that is your argument

These materials have been used to attack coalition troops more than once. Where do you suppose they came from?

[Marcus Bryant]

That's nice but it didn't seem to buy Hussein protection from having his country invaded and him locked up.

[Marcus Bryant]

There is no proof that those specific 'missing' materials have been used to attack coalition troops.

As for Iraqi weaponry in general, sure, some of it has been used. What's the preferred alternative, having it end up in the middle of NY or Chicago?

[Nbadan]

That's nice but it didn't seem to buy Hussein protection from having his country invaded and him locked up.

...and for what? A Islamic republic? What the U.S. did what get rid of the only deterent that was keeping Iran in check in the region. With Saddam gone, Iran has free reign to do whatever it wants.

[Nbadan]

There is no proof that those specific 'missing' materials have been used to attack coalition troops.

That is the truely disturbing part of all this. There may have been hundreds of sites that contained the same nasty stuff all over Iraq, but since Rummy wanted to keep this war on the cheap, there weren't enough troops in the initial invasion to secure all these sites.

[Marcus Bryant]

...and for what? A Islamic republic? What the U.S. did what get rid of the only deterent that was keeping Iran in check in the region. With Saddam gone, Iran has free reign to do whatever it wants.

That would be nice if Hussein wasn't buying his way out of the UN sanctions and planning on starting up his WMD programs. Your scenario makes no sense because Hussein clearly had it in for the United States and he had ties to Islamic terrorism and he himself was positioning himself as a much more vocal supporter of Islam in general as well as militant Islam in particular.

Also it should be noted that just about every intel agency in the world believed he had WMDs on hand back in 2002. Only you could try to make a Hussein in power out to be a good thing because you like John F'in Kerry.

And Kerry himself regarded a Hussein in possession of WMDs as a clear threat to the US and a significant part of the War on Terror back in the aftermath of 9/11.

But that was before he started running for the presidency and voted for the $87 Billion before he voted against it.

[Marcus Bryant]

That is the truely disturbing part of all this. There may have been hundreds of sites that contained the same nasty stuff all over Iraq, but since Rummy wanted to keep this war on the cheap, there weren't enough troops in the initial invasion to secure all these sites.

...but Hussein had it secured so that was preferable? Come on.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The U.S. was doing the same thing. In fact, we supplied Saddam with chemical and biological cultures to help create is WMD arsenal.

That was in the 80s dumbass. You're just like Kerry, living way in the past.

Who's going to keep Iran in check?

Where do you think they'll go?

Pakistan? Nope, nuclear weapons.
Iraq? Nope, already hates them (civil war), would have US backing)
Turkey? Can you say U.S. ally?
North into Ajerbaijan? Hello Turkey, hello Russia.
Afghanistan? Again, U.S. backing.

Where else is left? Caspian Sea? Persian Gulf? If the U.S. has a continued presence in Iraq, lran is basically landlocked by the U.S., U.S. allies, or water.

And if they really act up in any way, Israel's a short F-16 hop away.

[Nbadan]

That would be nice if Hussein wasn't buying his way out of the UN sanctions and planning on starting up his WMD programs. Your scenario makes no sense because Hussein clearly had it in for the United States and he had ties to Islamic terrorism and he himself was positioning himself as a much more vocal supporter of Islam in general as well as militant Islam in particular.

Saddam was a secularist who loathed Islamic fundamentalist. He even murdered two prominent Shiite Mullahs who he thought were organizing Shiite rebellion against him. Now that hardly sounds like a man who was trying to cozy up to Al-Queda or the Islamic Jihadists, doesn't it?

[Nbadan]

Also it should be noted that just about every intel agency in the world believed he had WMDs on hand back in 2002. Only you could try to make a Hussein in power out to be a good thing because you like John F'in Kerry

Dick Cheney thought keeping Saddam in power after the first Gulf War was a smart thing to do also, and not because keeping Saddam was a good thing, but because they speculated that what would happen is what has happened. By getting rid of Iran's biggest enemy in the region we have opened the door for radical Islamists to spread into Iraq and beyond.

[Nbadan]

But that was before he started running for the presidency and voted for the $87 Billion before he voted against it.

Had Kerry gotten more of his fellow Senators to agree that more of the Iraqi aid should have been as loans and not unrepayable grants, as W wanted, it would have been W who voted against the $87 billion dollar Iraq give-away.

[Nbadan]

...but Hussein had it secured so that was preferable? Come on.

The I.A.E.A. had it secured. Saddam was living up to his confirmation obligations up to March of 2003, when the U.S. kicked out I.A.E.A inspectors immediately before invading.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

BTW, it wasn't the 101st who cleared/investigated Al Qaqaa, it was the 3rd ID.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/04/iraq/main547667.shtml


He even murdered two prominent Shiite Mullahs who he thought were organizing Shiite rebellion against him. Now that hardly sounds like a man who was trying to cozy up to Al-Queda or the Islamic Jihadists, doesn't it?

You sure don't know much about Islam. The religion's history (hell even the split between Sunnis and Shi'ites) has been marked by rulers/clerics on one side assassinating rulers/clerics on the other side.

So Saddam, who considered himself a modern day apostate, and claimed he would unite all of Arabia in one glorious "nation", killing a few leaders of religious sects, hardly registers as noteworthy in the history of Islam.

How that's supposed to prove that it would somehow prevent him from cozying up to Osama or IJ is beyond me. Osama wouldn't have given a flip, and IJ had bigger things to worry about than who Saddam was killing in his own country.

But again, leaders of countries/religions/sects killing others who opposed them in and around the Arabian Peninsula/Mesopotamia is hardly *shocking*.

But you wouldn't know this, because it's not on the Democratic talking points memo you got in email this morning, nor was it in the archives.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The I.A.E.A. had it secured.

The IAEA's own report said that their seals could easily be circumvented via the ventilation shafts for the buildings at Al Qaqaa.

Try again.

[Nbadan]

That was in the 80s dumbass. You're just like Kerry, living way in the past.

So what? Dick Cheney was there, so was Donald Rumsfeld, and who was President at the time? George H.W. Bush. Only a blind man could avoid seeing the correlation. They knew Saddam possessed WMD's at one time cause they had the receipts.

[Nbadan]

But again, leaders of countries/religions/sects killing others who opposed them in and around the Arabian Peninsula/Mesopotamia is hardly *shocking*.

That maybe true if Saddam was a religious man, but he wasn't. He didn't need to do anything to please his Baathists (Sunni) base cause they would have, out of fear, done anything for him anyway.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Try again dumbfuck. Reagan was in office at the time, hell the Iran-Iraq war finished in '88. That was James Baker, Casper Weinberger, and Co. seeings you don't know your history.

Even blind men know when GHWB was elected, and when the Iraq-Iran war ended.

[Nbadan]

George Bush was director of the CIA at the time dumbfuck. Not president, but still there.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

That maybe true if Saddam was a religious man, but he wasn't. He didn't need to do anything to please his Baathists (Sunni) base cause they would have, out of fear, done anything for him anyway.

You realize that the whole Iraq-Iran war started because Saddam deported or murdered the entire Shi'ite leadership in Iraq, right?

And BTW, Saddam was a religious man. He saw himself as a caliph, and his grand vision was uniting all of Arabia under his rule.

Quick google...

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1023/p01s04-wome.html


Aburish also points to the way Iraqi officials a few years ago stopped using the traditional Arab hug and kiss on the cheek in greeting the president, and instead began kissing his lapels. "That's what you do to a holy man," he says.

Such signs appear to confirm what expert observers have long seen as Hussein's "exaggerated sense of his own heroic role in history," as Cockburn puts it, illustrated by his dedication to rebuilding the ancient city of Babylon even at the height of the Iran-Iraq war.

The Iraqi leader has made no secret of his ambition to build on his deep nationalism to become the undisputed leader of the Arab people, defying the West in the fashion of the late Egyptian president Gamel Abdul Nasser.

And on the eve of the American invasion, this sure sounds like a "secular" speech...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,869642,00.html

Look, I know you're fucking stupid, but wrap your brain (however small it is) around this... Saddam thought he would be the caliphe (religious leader) that would reunite all of Arabia and Mesopatamia into one grand nation, with him as the leader. You can say he was Ba'athist and secular all you want, but fact is, especially from '92 on, his sermons, rhetoric, and actions were all theological in nature.

An Arabic woman from Jordan in my Islam class last spring did her thesis on Saddam Hussein, and all he ever did (when he wasn't thumbing his nose at the US and UN) was preach endlessly about being the grand ruler of Islam and uniting all of the Muslim lands once again under the singular nation of Arabia.

This is lost on you because it doesn't come from democraticunderground or salon, but it's the truth.

have a good day.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

So what if he was involved with the CIA. You said the other day the CIA was busy using the drug trade to run this country, so he was obviously too busy to deal with fucking up the Middle East.

[Marcus Bryant]

Had Kerry gotten more of his fellow Senators to agree that more of the Iraqi aid should have been as loans and not unrepayable grants, as W wanted, it would have been W who voted against the $87 billion dollar Iraq give-away.

Ha. If Kerry hadn't voted that way because Howard Dean was making noise in the primaries his vascillatory self wouldn't have been exposed as badly as it was.

[Marcus Bryant]

The I.A.E.A. had it secured. Saddam was living up to his confirmation obligations up to March of 2003, when the U.S. kicked out I.A.E.A inspectors immediately before invading.

First off, the IAEA didn't even verify that the material was there in March 2003, only that they saw some of the seals in place for the HMX but they apparently didn't even check the structures housing the RDX. Even the IAEA acknowledges that there were other entry points into those buildings.

Secondly, how was the IAEA going to prevent Hussein from doing whatever the fuck he wanted? They couldn't. The only reason he had that material in the first place even though he wasn't supposed to have it originally as you have pointed out is that he opted to do as he pleased and the UN bent over for him.

[JoeChalupa]

Kerry was using the intelligence he had at the time. It happens.

[Useruser666]

That's fine Joe. Just remember how that street runs two ways. Spread the word!

[Yonivore]

http://boortz.com/images/baghdad_bob.jpg

[spurster]

Whether its 380 tons or 200 tons or 500 tons or whatever, I think you are missing the forest for the trees. BushCo thought that once Baghdad fell, the rest of it would be a cakewalk. Iraqis would toss them flowers, love each other, and form a US-friendly democracy. BushCo would pick up the terrorists, the WMDs, and the nukes and go home. Why would you need to guard any of the weapon depots in this scenario? Instead, they allowed anything less than a WMD to walk off. Whatever else you might say about the war, they blew this part big time.

[Marcus Bryant]

So the US had to lead an invasion of Iraq because Hussein had weapons which constituted a grave threat to the United States. Welcome aboard.


Instead, they allowed anything less than a WMD to walk off.

You are assuming those weapons were even there when the US forces first arrived and that is a claim in serious dispute at the moment.

Hussein could have moved those weapons as even the IAEA admits prior to the invasion. Lest we forget the Russian angle which is being looked into at the moment.

Also of note is the fact that the material in dispute is precisely the type of explosive which could be used in a nuclear device, yet the UN/IAEA allowed Hussein to keep the material instead of destroying it because he claimed it was needed for "mining and construction."

[Nbadan]

You are assuming those weapons were even there when the US forces first arrived and that is a claim in serious dispute at the moment

Facts are facts. There were tons and tons of HMX at Al-Qa Qaa when the 3rd ID reached the complex. No one is disputing that, not even the Washington Times, who we have to remember is owned by Reverand Moon who would like nothing better than to see George Bush re-elected. Instead right-wing pundits, like Glen Beck this morning, are harping about there only being 3 tons of BMX. What a fucken asshole.

[Marcus Bryant]

There were tons and tons of HMX at Al-Qa Qaa when the 3rd ID reached the complex. No one is disputing that,

BULLSHIT. That is clearly what is in serious dispute. There is no evidence that it was there. Get up to speed. Where have you been? Arkansas?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

BushCo thought that once Baghdad fell, the rest of it would be a cakewalk.

I never remember hearing this. Even when he declared major combat ops over in Iraq, he said it would be tough going in the future and we'd be there for the long haul. Typical Democratic revisionist BS history.


Facts are facts. There were tons and tons of HMX at Al-Qa Qaa when the 3rd ID reached the complex.

You're right, there could have been "tons and tons", a whole three tons, there by the IAEA's own admission. You got Bush, he's busted.