Question on Hurricane Katrina

[1Parker1]

I know I don't normally post in the Political Forum (partly because I'm a little scared of some of the posters :)), but I need your help. I'm doing a paper for my Morality and Law class on Hurricane Katrina and would like your opinions.

My question is this: Do you consider what happened to the citizens of NO both in the wake of and prior to Hurricane Katrina as an "act of violence?" Perhaps by the government, by "nature," etc. Violence is sort of an ambiguous term that can mean a lot of different things, so I guess your responses will depend on what you think of it.

[FromWayDowntown]

Violence, to me at least, generally means something that isn't really random. A hurricane striking New Orleans is, in a number of ways, a random event. To me, what happened in New Orleans was basically negligence on a great number of levels -- negligence on the part of government at all levels in preparation for a storm of that magnitude; negligence in responding to a storm like Katrina; negligence in perpetuating a socio-economic system in which so many were so deeply impoverished and hopeless that leaving New Orleans was a practical impossibility without further governmental assistance.

From that negligence, violence was visited upon some, but I think that resulted primarily from an immediate and unprecedented exacerbation of the already-existing problems.

[BeerIsGood!]

If you believe that God exists and controls the day to day operations of the earth as an "all knowing" being then I guess you'd have to say God perpetuated a violent act on the people of NO and the Gulf Coast region.

[01Snake]

George Bush hates black people!

http://www.evanroberts.com/movies/thumbs/kanye_west_slander.jpg

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Violence, to me at least, generally means something that isn't really random. A hurricane striking New Orleans is, in a number of ways, a random event. To me, what happened in New Orleans was basically negligence on a great number of levels -- negligence on the part of government at all levels in preparation for a storm of that magnitude; negligence in responding to a storm like Katrina; negligence in perpetuating a socio-economic system in which so many were so deeply impoverished and hopeless that leaving New Orleans was a practical impossibility without further governmental assistance.

From that negligence, violence was visited upon some, but I think that resulted primarily from an immediate and unprecedented exacerbation of the already-existing problems.

Well said, sir.

[BeerIsGood!]

Violence, to me at least, generally means something that isn't really random. A hurricane striking New Orleans is, in a number of ways, a random event. To me, what happened in New Orleans was basically negligence on a great number of levels -- negligence on the part of government at all levels in preparation for a storm of that magnitude; negligence in responding to a storm like Katrina; negligence in perpetuating a socio-economic system in which so many were so deeply impoverished and hopeless that leaving New Orleans was a practical impossibility without further governmental assistance.

From that negligence, violence was visited upon some, but I think that resulted primarily from an immediate and unprecedented exacerbation of the already-existing problems.
Is the government responsible for getting poor people out of a city about to be hit by a hurricane?

They should have just treated NO like a pack of cigarettes:

U.S. Government Warning: Living in a city that is below sea level may result in involuntary loss of life and property due to natural disasters.

[George W Bush]

George Bush hates black people!

http://www.evanroberts.com/movies/thumbs/kanye_west_slander.jpg

Who told you!

[Nbadan]

Katrina was an uncontrollable, destructive force and can thus be characterized as having been ‘violent’ I suppose, but I don’t think the government’s role can be labeled as violent. Even in a meta-physical sense, bureaucracy has no feelings, it just is. That’s why we elect leaders who can cut through the bureaucracy.

[FromWayDowntown]

Is the government responsible for getting poor people out of a city about to be hit by a hurricane?

They should have just treated NO like a pack of cigarettes:

U.S. Government Warning: Living in a city that is below sea level may result in involuntary loss of life and property due to natural disasters.

When the government knows that more than 150,000 people lack independent means to evacuate a city, I'd say that it does have some responsibility to ensure that those individuals are provided a means to comply with a mandatory evacuation.

So, yes.

[101A]

Katrina was an uncontrollable, destructive force and can thus be characterized as having been ‘violent’ I suppose, but I don’t think the government’s role can be labeled as violent. Even in a meta-physical sense, bureaucracy has no feelings, it just is. That’s why we elect leaders who can cut through the bureaucracy.


Well said. I would argue, however, that we elect leaders, usually, who ADD to the bureacracy.

[Yonivore]

In the context of a paper on morality and law, I'd characterize Hurricane Katrina as a destructive act of God.

I believe that's still a legal term of art.

[ChumpDumper]

It was that gay pride parade that did it.

[Clandestino]

many people who didn't want to leave their home..

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It should be a wake up call to everyone who thinks that in the event of a cataclysmic disaster the government will roll down Main Street 5 minutes later to save them.

[FromWayDowntown]

It should be a wake up call to everyone who thinks that in the event of a cataclysmic disaster the government will roll down Main Street 5 minutes later to save them.

. . . even if an educational and economic system in your city deprive you of meaningful opportunity to acquire the assets necessary to own luxuries like cars or other independent means of escaping.

Seriously, were the systemically poor who resided in places like the Lower Ninth supposed to just walk from New Orleans to Baton Rouge to evacuate that city? Were they supposed to sell all of their assets to buy transportation out of the city? Many of those people relied on governmental transportation for movement in their everyday lives, but when their lives depended on being able to move, it's just too bad that government failed them?

I've never understood the "don't be stupid" argument in the NOLA context, because a large number of those who stayed had no realistic other choice. Those who were willfully ignorant of the storm's force and just decided to ride it out are one question; those who had no real chance to get out without governmental assistance are an entirely different question.

If government can't aid people who are otherwise unable to escape an emergency, what is government for? I really don't understand this point because, after all, when Americans were in danger in Lebanon, the government had no real difficulty in chartering luxury boats and evacuating those people from the risk of losing their lives. Americans in Lebanon deserve better threatment than Americans in New Orleans?

[01Snake]

Yes, some didn't have the means to leave BUT a TON of them did but decided not to. The city should have had a plan in place to remove elderly, disabled, etc people that couldn't get out themselves.

A delt with so many people down in NOLA last year and many of them decided to ride it out due to the fact that they have evacuated so many times and the city was never hit. Many took their chances and lost.

[Clandestino]

in the u.s. everyone HAS the chance to get ahead. many are too lazy to try. i have talked to many people who volunteered and many cops who were disgusted by how ungrateful the new orleans people were....

[Nbadan]

It was always estimated that about 10% of the city would stick it out no matter what, but in a city of 1+ million people, your talking ~100,000 stayed behind - that's a crisis during a natural disaster like Katrina. The plan was always to stick people who couldn't get out of town into the Superdome, not put them into buses bound to where-ever. There was no plan for that, no coordination, even if Nagin had confiscated every school bus in N.O. there wouldn't have been the gas to go anywhere because motorists had sucked up all the gas heading the hell out of town. So this whole issue on the buses is a silly issue. The real issue should be the negligent construction of the concrete levees that gave way and the poor local evacuation procedures and State and Federal Emergency coordination and response.

[MannyIsGod]

Funny, cause I volunteered and they were anything but ungrateful.

[MannyIsGod]

Anyone can spin it anyway they want, but the government failed. Thats the bottom line.

[Nbadan]

Funny, cause I volunteered and they were anything but ungrateful.

Blah, that just the standard wing-nut response.

[01Snake]

Anyone can spin it anyway they want, but the government failed. Thats the bottom line.

So nobody is responsible but the Gov huh?
:lol

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

FWD,

My point is that I have a good friend from college who grew up there. He told me many times that if a big storm ever hit NO, they were screwed.

Now, I certainly feel for the people down there who wanted to get out but had no means. But at the same time, you had the director of the hurricane center telling anyone and everyone who would listen to get the fuck out. And then you had the mayor and governor sitting on their asses with lots of resources at their disposal to evacuate sitting in parking lots waiting to be used.

I have a sister in the Army Nurse Corps and they started calling THREE days before it hit, as soon as the NHC called the shot, and offered trucks, etc. to come evacuate. But Nagin and others said they'd get back to them. And then all of a sudden, 24 hours before it hits, it's 'oh shit, we're fucked, what do we do now.'

Then people were bitching when the city flooded and they needed evaced asap. There's only so many helicopters to go around for rescues.

My comment was more directed at post-tragedy security, and all the violence, etc. in the city. When you're talking about a city that big, there's just no way to secure it or expect the police to be able to show up in 30 seconds when the shit hits the fan.

We recently had a pretty heated debate on here about gun control, etc. My comment was partially directed at that.

The biggest problem in NO is that an extremely liberal government, from the city to parish to state level, had created a largely socialist environment in NO and surrounding areas.

People there had become largely content with expecting to just stick out their hands and have the government fill them with whatever it was they were asking for. Bottom line, when something of this enormity comes around, you've got to take responsibility for yourself.

What happened with seniors/medically unable to evacuate/financially unable to evac was deplorable, and hopefully everyone in this country learned from it, because we'll undoubtedly face something again in our lifetimes or our childrens.

My main beef with this situation is the whole race card being played politically. A lot of folks seem to want to play this up. Galveston got wiped out by a similar sized storm back at the turn of the 20th century, and that socioeconomic situation was completely different from that in NO, but the aftermath of the disaster there played out in much the same way.

Did the people of Galveston feel sorry for themselves and play the race card? Fuck no, they dusted off their shoulders, rebuilt their city, and went on with living their lives.

Similarly, you don't hear the people of Alabama and Mississippi, who were hit just as hard as NO, crying for help and coming on with the 'whoa is us', 'George Bush hates black people' shit.

THey rolled up their sleaves and helped their neighbors clean up and rebuild. I'm sorry, I just have a hard time feeling sorry for all the people crying about all the government handouts they're entitled to when their neighbors in Miss. and Alabama are facing the same thing and seem to be dealing with it just fine, despite having a lot of the same socioeconomic makeup as the hapless New Orleanians.

[MannyIsGod]

So nobody is responsible but the Gov huh?
:lolI never said that. I said the government dropped the ball. Its funny, I can make a simple statement and you can even try to spin that.

[Nbadan]

Did the people of Galveston feel sorry for themselves and play the race card? Fuck no, they dusted off their shoulders, rebuilt their city, and went on with living their lives.

:wtf

...but most of the people killed in Galveston w
here white.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f2/Belushi_in_Animal_House.jpg/180px-Belushi_in_Animal_House.jpg
Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

[MannyIsGod]

I'll tell you what. If the people of NO had the lobbies that the finest corporations in America have, they'd have plenty of hand outs and they would have had protection in place and reaction ready to go.

[01Snake]

I never said that. I said the government dropped the ball. Its funny, I can make a simple statement and you can even try to spin that.

Uhh? Not spinning anything. :spin

[MannyIsGod]

Also, You can't issue a city wide evactuation order 3 days before a storm hits because 72 hours out the forcast isn't very accurate. So AHF, I call bullshit on most of what you're saying.

[MannyIsGod]

Uhh? Not spinning anything. :spinUhh? Yes you were. When I make a statement about the government and then you turn around and try to turn it into a statement about the responsibilties I didn't bring up, then that is what is known as spinning.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

but most of the people killed in Galveston w
here white.

And that was my point - you didn't see them blaming the government, etc. Like I said, the whole race card and "republicans hate black people" shit is beyond played out.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Also, You can't issue a city wide evactuation order 3 days before a storm hits because 72 hours out the forcast isn't very accurate. So AHF, I call bullshit on most of what you're saying.

Manny (and if I remember right even you) were calling it here three days out. Max Mayfield was. Army and Air Force weathermen were as well.

[FromWayDowntown]

Now, I certainly feel for the people down there who wanted to get out but had no means. But at the same time, you had the director of the hurricane center telling anyone and everyone who would listen to get the fuck out. And then you had the mayor and governor sitting on their asses with lots of resources at their disposal to evacuate sitting in parking lots waiting to be used.

I have a sister in the Army Nurse Corps and they started calling THREE days before it hit, as soon as the NHC called the shot, and offered trucks, etc. to come evacuate. But Nagin and others said they'd get back to them. And then all of a sudden, 24 hours before it hits, it's 'oh shit, we're fucked, what do we do now.'

Then people were bitching when the city flooded and they needed evaced asap. There's only so many helicopters to go around for rescues.


Oh, I completely understand. And just to clarify, my point was never to point the finger of blame solely at the federal government. I think government at all levels failed the people of New Orleans.

In many ways, I think the least culpable government is the federal government.


My comment was more directed at post-tragedy security, and all the violence, etc. in the city. When you're talking about a city that big, there's just no way to secure it or expect the police to be able to show up in 30 seconds when the shit hits the fan.

We recently had a pretty heated debate on here about gun control, etc. My comment was partially directed at that.

The biggest problem in NO is that an extremely liberal government, from the city to parish to state level, had created a largely socialist environment in NO and surrounding areas.

That's all very true. I think it all highlights why the state and local government failed so many by not adequately preparing for problems that were altogether predictable -- and were, in fact, predicted.


People there had become largely content with expecting to just stick out their hands and have the government fill them with whatever it was they were asking for. Bottom line, when something of this enormity comes around, you've got to take responsibility for yourself.

Again, I don't think the political orientation of those in government is necessarily dispositive of that social condition. The truth is that regardless of political orientation, there have long been systematic failures in Louisiana than have largely created an prepetual underclass of undereducated (and subsequently underemployed) citizens who have no choice but to ask government for help. Those problems have long existed; Katrina brought them into immediate relief. A city of more than a million with a full 10% who are economically incapable of dealing with the needs created by a storm like this one -- in many ways, they can't take economic responsibility for themselves. Liberals, conservatives, moderates alike are all at fault for that failure, because for decades, none have done anything significant to change it.


What happened with seniors/medically unable to evacuate/financially unable to evac was deplorable, and hopefully everyone in this country learned from it, because we'll undoubtedly face something again in our lifetimes or our childrens.

Agreed. I think the rapid response to the Americans in Lebanon is, at least partially, something that can be credited to the failures in the Gulf.


My main beef with this situation is the whole race card being played politically. A lot of folks seem to want to play this up. Galveston got wiped out by a similar sized storm back at the turn of the 20th century, and that socioeconomic situation was completely different from that in NO, but the aftermath of the disaster there played out in much the same way.

Did the people of Galveston feel sorry for themselves and play the race card? Fuck no, they dusted off their shoulders, rebuilt their city, and went on with living their lives.

Similarly, you don't hear the people of Alabama and Mississippi, who were hit just as hard as NO, crying for help and coming on with the 'whoa is us', 'George Bush hates black people' shit.

THey rolled up their sleaves and helped their neighbors clean up and rebuild. I'm sorry, I just have a hard time feeling sorry for all the people crying about all the government handouts they're entitled to when their neighbors in Miss. and Alabama are facing the same thing and seem to be dealing with it just fine, despite having a lot of the same socioeconomic makeup as the hapless New Orleanians.

There are aftermath problems to be certain. There are some who use that as a proxy for regurgitating issues of racism. I find that argument to be a weak one. I certainly think that there are matters that government can see to in situations like those that existed on the Gulf Coast post-Katrina. Frankly, I think one way in which government would best serve those individuals would be to intervene in the efforts by some insurers to avoid liability for total losses. I also think there are complications that exist in NOLA that don't exist in other communities, and I think those complications are frequently overlooked in the effort to compare what's going on in Alabama, Mississippi, and Texas to what's going on in Louisiana and New Orleans in particular. Nevertheless, I think you're right that the path to salvation in New Orleans is not through a government coffer, but through the effort of those who choose to live in NOLA. A little aid from the government with matters like revitalizing infrastructure that will permit reconstruction would certainly help, though.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Just another thought here, good dialog FWD.

We've still got lots of folks living in hotels up here in Dallas that used to call NO home. People talk about the slowness of the repairs/clean up effort, yet up here on the news it's one sob story after another about people not being able to find jobs.

I have several friends from school who quit their jobs and are working in La. as contractors working 50-60 hour work weeks and absolutely banking. It says a lot that these people would rather sit around and play the race card whenever someone talks about cutting off their funding to stay in their $100 a night hotel room than go back to what they used to call their home and help clean up, all the while putting money in their pockets for them and their kids.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not going to give the federal government such a light pass, FWD. When I look at the mountains upon mountains of pork and corporate handouts that our government gives without the slightest mention of socialism I can't bear but get upset when people compare post disaster federal aid to socialism. It is nothing of the sort.

I am extremely libertarian but there are very few places I see more need for strong and rapid government assistance than in a situation like Katrina. While Kanye West got it wrong when he said that what he said about George Bush and black people, I can't help but wonder what kind of a response this would have gotten in a city more like New York?

[MannyIsGod]

Just another thought here, good dialog FWD.

We've still got lots of folks living in hotels up here in Dallas that used to call NO home. People talk about the slowness of the repairs/clean up effort, yet up here on the news it's one sob story after another about people not being able to find jobs.

I have several friends from school who quit their jobs and are working in La. as contractors working 50-60 hour work weeks and absolutely banking. It says a lot that these people would rather sit around and play the race card whenever someone talks about cutting off their funding to stay in their $100 a night hotel room than go back to what they used to call their home and help clean up, all the while putting money in their pockets for them and their kids.Fuck that. You go talk to those people and find the real story first hand and you put it into context. Don't regurgitate 2nd, 3rd, and 4th hand bullshit generalizations and try to pass them off as the way things are. Its just like Clandestino saying that they are all lazy. Shit seems so easy to classify from the outside from your perspective but its all out of context.

Don't try to compare your just out of college friends with very little real world obligations to a person with a family moving somewhere where they don't even have schools.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

in the u.s. everyone HAS the chance to get ahead. many are too lazy to try.

Not on topic, but this idea of yours is pure fantasy land. In an ideal world everyone has a chance to get ahead. In the real world, which has been studied to exhaustion by sociologists, socio-economic status at birth is the major predictor of future success, and socio-economic mobility on a large scale is a myth. Most poor people remain poor, just as most rich people remain rich. This is especially true in a society like the US which has the most expensive tertiary education in the world.

Economic mobility for all is one of the great myths perpetrated upon us all, and a guy named Alain de Botton (Status Anxiety) has a very interesting theory that the unrealistic aspirations it produces are part of the explanation why the massive increase in material possessions over the last half-century has actually accompanied a decrease in overall happiness. The idea goes something like this: a century or two ago people simply accepted their lot in life, whether it be peasantry, working class or nobility, and as such didn't continually have their hopes dashed as they tried to climb the ladder to riches. In contrast, today we are constantly striving for what is unobtainable by most, and this leads to less overall happiness. Makes sense to me.

Just thought I'd point that out.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Don't try to compare your just out of college friends with very little real world obligations to a person with a family moving somewhere where they don't even have schools.

Where did I ever say they had to move their families? I've got two buds who are already married with families, and they go down and work all week and come back to Houston (where they live) on the weekends.

There's a ton of people in Houston that could be doing the same thing.

[MannyIsGod]

With kids AHF? Where do you expect a person living out of a hotel to leave their kids? How do you expect the kids to grow up with their parents not there? This shit isn't as cut and dry as you want to paint it. You can't take a cookie cutter solution and apply it to famlies and expect them to succeed in a situation like this.

Ray Nagin, his 100 day plan, and FEMA are all fucking jokes.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Manny, sorry if I wasn't clear - the wife stays with the kids, the husband goes and works for the week and comes back on weekends.

[mookie2001]

"republicans hate black people" shit is beyond played out. who said that?, even Kaunyeahe West didnt say that

[Melmart1]

Manny, sorry if I wasn't clear - the wife stays with the kids, the husband goes and works for the week and comes back on weekends.
But your friends already had a house or at least an apartment, right? And a vehicle? A diplaced Katrina victim likely has neither of these things. If they had a car to drive from Houston to New Orleans every week, they would have gotten the hell out in the first place.

[MannyIsGod]

No to mentio nyou'd have to pay for 2 places to live. What the fuck? Its not an easy situation to be in, and until you live it or you get your a direct observer and understander of the situation people just don't get it.

[101A]

There are currently houses for rent in New Orleans, and jobs available. The problem right now is one of economics.

The government, stinging from charges of incompetence and racism, currently providing trailers and a monthly stipend for many, many families. The government is also paying for NO '"refugees" to live in other cities, and again, paying a stipend. "FREE" is the best thing in the world to most people (I'm not at all making this a race thing). That is, using market economics, when something is free (Room and Board), no matter how meager it might be, the demand for that is going to be high, and the life improvement required in order to take a job and pay a rent to end the "Free" would have to be quite high.

Right now we are paying for people to be homeless and jobless. You get what you pay for.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

But your friends already had a house or at least an apartment, right? And a vehicle? A diplaced Katrina victim likely has neither of these things. If they had a car to drive from Houston to New Orleans every week, they would have gotten the hell out in the first place.

There are contractors who pick people up in Houston and drive them to NO every Sunday and back every Friday, and put them up in hotels and temp housing for the week.