Ex-military, Thoughts on Torture?

[Guru of Nothing]

I tend to dismiss Yonivore's torture endorsements, simply because he never opted to serve in the military. Correct me if I am wrong Yoni.

... But my skin crawls win I see NeoConIV endorse torture. Granted, Neo-Con's military experience was safely spent in the Navy (as was mine), but ...

If the vote were all mine, I'd eschew torture, in any form.

and spare me the ticking bomb arguments because they are fictional constructs.

So, back to the subject, do any ex-military folks here endorse torture?

NeoCon and ???

[Yonivore]

I tend to dismiss Yonivore's torture endorsements, simply because he never opted to serve in the military. Correct me if I am wrong Yoni.

... But my skin crawls win I see NeoConIV endorse torture. Granted, Neo-Con's military experience was safely spent in the Navy (as was mine), but ...

If the vote were all mine, I'd eschew torture, in any form.

and spare me the ticking bomb arguments because they are fictional constructs.

So, back to the subject, do any ex-military folks here endorse torture?

NeoCon and ???
First you need to determine the definition of torture. Many of us do not hold that the techniques mentioned are torture.

All of the CIA Agents authorized to conduct the harsh interrogations have undergone the same techniques. Normally, one does not torture the torturers. It would like calling tazing or pepper spraying torture.

[Guru of Nothing]

First you need to determine the definition of torture.

I see a problem.

[Yonivore]

I see a problem.
Do you now?

[Melmart1]

Well, I am no ex-military but my brother is in the USAF and has been to Afghanistan twice and is TOTALLY AGAINST this type of torture. Here are his reasons:

1. If he were captured in combat (as many Americans have been) he would not want this to happen to him. Though terrorists don't play fair, he (and many like him, btw) are of the mindset that once you start violating rules and stepping over lines of decency that you are no better than them.

2. He said that stories circulate about men- good men with wives and kids who get addicted to torturing. They start to like it. And they are never the same after that. And by his and almost any military personnel's admission, the military does NOT take care of their own medically, much less psychologically.

3. Like many here, he feels that torturing only fuels the fire of the insurgents, and he fears they will never leave Iraq or Afghanistan this way. I know a lot of you argue against this but you have to undertand this is someone who has already been to war.. THIS war and seen it with his own two eyes. I am not knocking at those who have been to previous wars but this is different in many ways from any other war. He was been there and he does not support it. Does everyone feel the way he does? No, absolutely not. Just one man's opinion.

[Yonivore]

Well, I am no ex-military but my brother is in the USAF and has been to Afghanistan twice and is TOTALLY AGAINST this type of torture. Here are his reasons:

1. If he were captured in combat (as many Americans have been) he would not want this to happen to him. Though terrorists don't play fair, he (and many like him, btw) are of the mindset that once you start violating rules and stepping over lines of decency that you are no better than them.
I would respectfully disagree with your brother in that 1) it doesn't matter what we do or don't do to the terrorists we catch, they're still going to torture, kill, mutilate, and display the bodies of any U. S. Servicemen caught, and, 2) waterboarding doesn't make us "no better than them," particularly when them is torturing (for no intelligence gain but just to torture and to film so it can be used to terrorize), killing (usually by blindfolding and then sawing the live persons head off their shoulders -- note: this isn't a simulated sawing off of the head but, a real one), mutilating (well, you've seen the picture), and then displaying their handiwork.

No, I have to disagree with your brother. I too have a brother. Served a 20 years in the Army and saw combat in a couple of theaters. He thinks we should kill all the bastards. Does the fact that he served make him as right as your brother?

I disagree with my brother as well.


2. He said that stories circulate about men- good men with wives and kids who get addicted to torturing. They start to like it. And they are never the same after that. And by his and almost any military personnel's admission, the military does NOT take care of their own medically, much less psychologically.
Like he said, stories.


3. Like many here, he feels that torturing only fuels the fire of the insurgents, and he fears they will never leave Iraq or Afghanistan this way. I know a lot of you argue against this but you have to undertand this is someone who has already been to war.. THIS war and seen it with his own two eyes. I am not knocking at those who have been to previous wars but this is different in many ways from any other war. He was been there and he does not support it. Does everyone feel the way he does? No, absolutely not. Just one man's opinion.
C'mon, everything fuels the fire of the insurgents. Your sister in a bikini fuels the fire of these insurgents.

Like I said, it matters not to them how we treat those we capture. Their response is always the same.

[AFE7FATMAN]

23 years retired AF, Nam Viet

Short, but not simple

NO

http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/afghanistan_warfare/images/03.jpg
An Afghan boy detained along with two men after an ambush on a U.S. convoy near Kandahar

[Nbadan]

He said that stories circulate about men- good men with wives and kids who get addicted to torturing. They start to like it. And they are never the same after that. And by his and almost any military personnel's admission, the military does NOT take care of their own medically, much less psychologically.

Torture is a phychological slippery-slope and the worst part is these guys will eventually come home to their wives and girlfriends where they will be sadist at home.

[NeoConIV]

There are inbounds interrogation techniques, and then there is torture. Waterboarding is not torture. Is it harsh? Hell yeah it is. Should it be only applied to only high level enemy combatants with very good reason to believe are RIFE with actionable intel? Absolutely.

Again, Brian Ross used Khalid Sheik Mohammed as an example. It broke him mentally temporarily, and he was completely unharmed physically. Most importantly, it got the intel out of him. I fail to grasp why this effective technique has now been banned. Oh I get it, now our troops in custody will no longer have to worry about being waterboarded, only being beheaded and have their body thrown out of a truck somewhere in Baghdad. Great! Or being shot execution style, that's seems to be becoming all the rage again with al qaeda in Iraq again.

And for the record, my Step Dad just left for Camp Salerno, Afghanistan with KBR on Thursday. Not that that adds a shred of credibility to my views mind you.

Waterboarding, imho, is one of the harshest inbounds interrogation techniques we had. But NOT torture.

[Melmart1]

I
No, I have to disagree with your brother. I too have a brother. Served a 20 years in the Army and saw combat in a couple of theaters. He thinks we should kill all the bastards. Does the fact that he served make him as right as your brother?.
I never, EVER said my brother was right. Read the end of my post- JUST ONE MAN'S OPINION.

And these 'stories' that circulate amongst the troops- usually have at least a modicum of truth to them.

But I am glad you disagree with your brother.

[Yonivore]

I never, EVER said my brother was right. Read the end of my post- JUST ONE MAN'S OPINION.
As long as you recognize that.


And these 'stories' that circulate amongst the troops- usually have at least a modicum of truth to them.
Kind of like Kerry's Winter Soldier shit?


But I am glad you disagree with your brother.
Only because he wants to be indiscriminate in the killing. He thinks we're too politically correct about fighting this war. And, to a certain extent, I agree with that sentiment as well.

However, given that we have the Democrats and the Leftist Media openly aiding in the propaganda efforrts of the enemy, it's just not prudent to fight a war like it's a war anymore.

[Melmart1]

As long as you recognize that.
As long as YOU recognize that I FULLY stated in my original post that it was one man's opinion. Did you not read the ENTIRE post, or only responded as soon as you found out his opinion wasn't the same as yours?


Only because he wants to be indiscriminate in the killing. He thinks we're too politically correct about fighting this war. And, to a certain extent, I agree with that sentiment as well.
Though I agree this country is far too politically correct in a lot of ways, I don't agree that it has a place in this war.



However, given that we have the Democrats and the Leftist Media openly aiding in the propaganda efforrts of the enemy, it's just not prudent to fight a war like it's a war anymore.
So it's the MEDIA's fault that we have to resort to torture?

[Yonivore]

As long as YOU recognize that I FULLY stated in my original post that it was one man's opinion. Did you not read the ENTIRE post, or only responded as soon as you found out his opinion wasn't the same as yours?
Why would that one man's opinion be important enough to you to post it unless a) you agreed and b) you wanted everyone else to agree as well?


Though I agree this country is far too politically correct in a lot of ways, I don't agree that it has a place in this war.
Political Correctness? I agree.


So it's the MEDIA's fault that we have to resort to torture?
Well, since I don't consider waterboarding torture, I'm going to assume you mean that I fault the media for our having to use harsh interrogation techniques.

No. I don't. I blame the media for helping the enemy spread their propaganda and causing the United States to have to engage in a debate that is only distracting from our efforts to win.

I blame the media for aiding and abetting the enemy.

[boutons_]

"aiding in the propaganda efforrts of the enemy"

This is where, among so many other places, Yoni typifies his profoundly dishonest position.

Dissenting against the war does not mean the dissenters are traitorous pro-enemy.

Afghanistan and Iraq are being lost, will be lost, excsluviely by Yoni's Repugs' catastrophic initiation, execution, and mis-management of both conflicts.

Propaganda by the enemy won't cause the Repugs to lose the war.

Dissent from the US and other countries won't cause the Repugs to lose the war.

Repugs, and their enablers like Yoni, will lose both Iraq and Afghanistan due to the Repugs' incompetence.

[Melmart1]

Why would that one man's opinion be important enough to you to post it unless a) you agreed and b) you wanted everyone else to agree as well?
Um, did this thread not ask for opinions? I was just giving a perspective of a CURRENT soldier, since we seem to have very little of that here. I mean, isn't the WHOLE POINT of this forum to express opinoins? I NEVER said I wanted everyone to agree. I don't. And I am not naive enough to think that I would be able to change anyone's mind, least of all YOURS. You have proved time and again in here that you will defend your own opinion even in the face of stone-cold facts to the contrary.


I blame the media for aiding and abetting the enemy.
The same media that went to bat for the President when he was trying to drum up support for the war in the first place? You can't have it both ways.

[Yonivore]

Um, did this thread not ask for opinions? I was just giving a perspective of a CURRENT soldier, since we seem to have very little of that here. I mean, isn't the WHOLE POINT of this forum to express opinoins? I NEVER said I wanted everyone to agree. I don't. And I am not naive enough to think that I would be able to change anyone's mind, least of all YOURS. You have proved time and again in here that you will defend your own opinion even in the face of stone-cold facts to the contrary.
See? You wanted to post it unchallenged. I looked back at my initial response and it began, "I respectfully disagree..." followed by my reasons for disagreeing. That, my friend, is the purpose of the forum.

I don't want to debate forum etiquette with you. Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Yes, the thread asked for opinions. However, I assumed you knew people are equally free to disagree with said opinions and, further, free to post that opposition.

Unwad your panties.


The same media that went to bat for the President when he was trying to drum up support for the war in the first place? You can't have it both ways.
Sure you can. The media only supported the war because their Democratic masters told them to.

[Clandestino]

former army... i agree with things that have been done that i don't see as being torture..

harassing them with dogs is not torture... putting them in various poses is not torture..scary and humiliating yes, but not torture..

[xrayzebra]

23 years retired AF, Nam Viet

Short, but not simple

NO

http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/afghanistan_warfare/images/03.jpg
An Afghan boy detained along with two men after an ambush on a U.S. convoy near Kandahar


23 years and AF and also Viet Nam also Korea. I disagreee. What is being talked
about is not bamboo shoots under fingernails, pulling fingernails off people.
We are talking about much different things and it isn't torture. We don't put
them on the rack, break bones. But we do stress them.

I don't want you folks going to what they do to our people. No comparison.
We prosecute those that mistreat prisoners, even the so called mistreatment that can really only be called embarrassment. You folks also
say we are above that sort of thing. Horse Hockey, most of you think
having to standing in line a Wendys is torture and having to read post
made by me and Yoni also torture, get over yourself and understand we
are in a war. We are dealing with thugs who have no conscious and
could care less about you, your family or friends and laugh at your
rantings. They will take advantage of every weakness we show and have
as witnessed by their rantings about abuse in Club Gitmo and having to
stand in the nude in Abu Grab (sp). Hell, I say send them back to their
home country and let them deal with them and when we do that we
are told how bad we are. Get a life folks, we are in a war and the real
world. Every GI I ever knew, knew what would happened if captured
by the VC or North Koreans. And it damn sure wasn't three squares a day and a nice day room.

[xrayzebra]

Torture is a phychological slippery-slope and the worst part is these guys will eventually come home to their wives and girlfriends where they will be sadist at home.

Your an absolute idiot Nbadan, keep to posting you dimm-o-crap blogs and
leave the heavy lifting to the men.

[AFE7FATMAN]

ok I guess I need to expand on my answer, for xrayzebra and others

I'm for basic psychological pressure techniques that are time tested, cause no permanent harm, and work effectively. Some sleep deprivation, threats, psychological pressure, and techniques of disorientation/isolation are appropriate in the war on terror.

Not only do they work, but they are controlled and lack the cruelty of genuine tourture, i.e. waterboarding or what Sen McCain went through.
and as far as I'm concerned "Please turn off that Music, if you do I'll tell you how I helped Kill JFK when I was only 18, just give me a minute for the ringing in my ears to go away.

[Yonivore]

ok I guess I need to expand on my answer, for xrayzebra and others

I'm for basic psychological pressure techniques that are time tested, cause no permanent harm, and work effectively.
Waterboarding is a basic psychological pressure technique that causes no permanent harm and works effectively.

Recommended by 14 out of 14 terrorists.


Some sleep deprivation, threats, psychological pressure, and techniques of disorientation/isolation are appropriate in the war on terror.
Uh, these weren't working. That's why they moved on to waterboarding in some cases.


Not only do they work, but they are controlled and lack the cruelty of genuine tourture, i.e. waterboarding or what Sen McCain went through.
I don't recall Senator McCain claiming to have been waterboarded. I don't think you can equate waterboarding to what Senator McCain went through.



and as far as I'm concerned "Please turn off that Music, if you do I'll tell you how I helped Kill JFK when I was only 18, just give me a minute for the ringing in my ears to go away.
Huh?

[ChumpDumper]

I don't recall Senator McCain claiming to have been waterboarded. I don't think you can equate waterboarding to what Senator McCain went through.Which makes his opinion on waterboarding all the more notable.

[BIG IRISH]

Well, since I don't consider waterboarding torture,


I CONSIDER WATERBOARDING tourture

Current and former CIA officers tell ABC News that they were trained to handcuff the prisoner and cover his face with cellophane to enhance the distress. According to Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., himself a torture victim during the Vietnam War, the water board technique is a "very exquisite torture" that should be outlawed.


"Torture is defined under the federal criminal code as the intentional infliction of severe mental pain or suffering," said John Sifton, an attorney and researcher with the organization Human Rights Watch. "That would include water boarding."
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1356870


I'm going to assume you mean that I fault the media for our having to use harsh interrogation techniques.

No. I don't. I blame the media for helping the enemy spread their propaganda and causing the United States to have to engage in a debate that is only distracting from our efforts to win.

I blame the media for aiding and abetting the enemy.

For a long time the media has been aiding and abetting the enemy but
that is a different story- You report I'll decide :lol

[Mr Dio]

First you need to determine the definition of torture.

Many of us do not hold that the techniques mentioned are torture.

All of the CIA Agents authorized to conduct the harsh interrogations have undergone the same techniques. Normally, one does not torture the torturers. It would like calling tazing or pepper spraying torture.


Yeah, that should be done 1st.



As far as Mel's post.
I see the validity in her post but I'm leaning much more the other way.
I would have no problem be told I'm as lowly as a terrorist if I knew that my nephews/nieces/neighbors/cousins/parents/friends/country would benefit from "torture".
As far as it fuels more of them & that stuff. They've cut heads off, I don't think lesser methods are any worse.

[RandomGuy]

As a former intel analyst, I knew exactly what being captured meant for me. (shudder)

This topic hits very close to home.

It is wrong, and all the rationalising in the world will not alter that.

[RandomGuy]

Torture is a phychological slippery-slope and the worst part is these guys will eventually come home to their wives and girlfriends where they will be sadists at home.--Dan

I concur.

This stuff is simply evil. People that do it lose their humanity, and I wouldn't want to live next door to somebody who did.

Imagine the guy leaves the service and decides to become a teacher. Would you trust your children to a teacher who had done something like this?

[Guru of Nothing]

23 years and AF and also Viet Nam also Korea. I disagreee. What is being talked
about is not bamboo shoots under fingernails, pulling fingernails off people.
We are talking about much different things and it isn't torture. We don't put
them on the rack, break bones. But we do stress them.

I don't want you folks going to what they do to our people. No comparison.
We prosecute those that mistreat prisoners, even the so called mistreatment that can really only be called embarrassment. You folks also
say we are above that sort of thing. Horse Hockey, most of you think
having to standing in line a Wendys is torture and having to read post
made by me and Yoni also torture, get over yourself and understand we
are in a war. We are dealing with thugs who have no conscious and
could care less about you, your family or friends and laugh at your
rantings. They will take advantage of every weakness we show and have
as witnessed by their rantings about abuse in Club Gitmo and having to
stand in the nude in Abu Grab (sp). Hell, I say send them back to their
home country and let them deal with them and when we do that we
are told how bad we are. Get a life folks, we are in a war and the real
world. Every GI I ever knew, knew what would happened if captured
by the VC or North Koreans. And it damn sure wasn't three squares a day and a nice day room.

On behalf of the readers here, please resume quoting others.

[gtownspur]

Which makes his opinion on waterboarding all the more notable.


Yeah, i see where you're coming from.

since he wasn't waterboarded, he's an expert on it.

[RandomGuy]

Of all the dips in congress, I would trust McCain completely when it comes to matters of torture.

I don't mind stress in an interrogation, but anything that approaches torture, such as waterboarding is right out.

[Yonivore]

Yeah, i see where you're coming from.

since he wasn't waterboarded, he's an expert on it.
In my book, the CIA officers that actually were waterboarded, in preperation for them doing the same to others, actually are the experts.

[RandomGuy]

In my book, the CIA officers that actually were waterboarded, in preperation for them doing the same to others, actually are the experts.

Further de-humanizing them, great. :tu [/sarcasm]

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, i see where you're coming from.

since he wasn't waterboarded, he's an expert on it.He's had much, much worse done to him - yet he considers this torture.

I don't expect you idiots to understand or respect McCain - you think watching 24 is supporting the war effort.