Mavs ponder lessons learned in finals

[ducks]

Mavs ponder lessons learned in finals
JEFF CARLTON
Associated Press

DALLAS - Avery Johnson has grown tired of hearing how close the Dallas Mavericks came to winning an NBA title. :elephant

The Mavericks' coach is ready for the next mission: learning from, and then forgetting about the team's collapse in the NBA finals. Miami won four straight games after falling into a 2-0 hole and trailing by 13 points midway through the fourth quarter of Game 3.

"That's all I heard all summer: 'Almost, coach,'" Johnson said Monday on the eve of the team's first training camp as the defending Western Conference champion. "How do we go from almost to all? If they are telling you almost, you probably didn't get what you are looking for."

The Mavericks said they aren't suffering a hangover from a devastating Game 6, when they blew a 14-point first-half lead and opened the second half by missing 14 of 16 shots. But some of those thoughts clearly linger.

The strong play of finals MVP Dwyane Wade haunted guard Jason Terry during the summer. Terry said he was on vacation in the Bahamas and a man at his hotel kept calling him "D-Wade" as a way of reminding him who won.

"We've got to refocus and try to get those memories out," Jason Terry said. "But it's always going to live in our minds."

The loss might have been tougher on Dirk Nowitzki, who had boosted his reputation with a strong postseason that included a series-saving play in the second round against San Antonio. But he spent the summer coming to terms with his erratic finals, while Wade landed on the covers of magazines and cereal boxes.

Although Nowitzki averaged 22.8 points and 10.8 rebounds against the Heat, those totals were was about three points and a rebound off his playoff numbers. He was 4-for-14 in the opener and 2-for-14 in Game 4. He shot 39 percent from the field, down from a high of 53 percent against the Spurs, who lost Game 7 at home after Nowitzki's three-point play in the final seconds forced overtime.

"We all know last season's over now, and we have to start all over again," Nowitzki said. "You never know in this league if you'll make it again. A good year is not enough. You want a great year, and hopefully, get a ring."

The way things ended doesn't obscure what was the finest season in team history. Dallas' 60 regular-season wins tied the franchise mark. The team swept Memphis in the first round of the playoffs, then followed the San Antonio series by beating Phoenix in the conference finals and preventing former teammate Steve Nash from reaching his first finals.

The organization has taken steps to reload, re-signing Terry and locking up Nowitzki, who agreed to a three-year extension that will keep him with the Mavericks through 2010-11. Although details of the deal were not disclosed, it's likely worth around $60 million.

Dallas also signed free agents Austin Croshere, Greg Buckner and Devean George to bolster the defense. Another new face is rookie guard Maurice Ager from Michigan State.

Johnson said his job is to blend the new faces with the team's core. He believes the Mavericks can get another shot at the title if they don't get caught looking ahead.

"You don't skip from October 2nd or 3rd and think about finals," Johnson said. "We'll still go through Basketball 101. Then we'll go to Basketball 201. Maybe because we have been together a little bit, we'll get to Basketball 201 a little sooner."

The biggest logjam on the roster appears to be at guard, where the Mavericks will audition a trio of wannabe Wade-stoppers in Ager, Buckner and George, who won championships with the Lakers. Figuring out how to stop the Heat star was perhaps the most important lesson the Mavs took from the Miami series.

"Well, that would be Basketball 501," Johnson said. "And sometimes you need five people to do that since it's a team sport."

[ducks]

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/sports/basketball/15666412.htm

[nkdlunch]

mavs will ponder some more next summer

[Lebowski Brickowski]

"Terry said he was on vacation in the Bahamas and a man at his hotel kept calling him "D-Wade" as a way of reminding him who won."
:lmao

[Slomo]

"Terry said he was on vacation in the Bahamas and a man at his hotel kept calling him "D-Wade" as a way of reminding him who won."
:lmao:lmao

[LEONARD]

Mavs > Spares

[leemajors]

Mavs > Spares

that quote about terry is still hilarious.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Mavs > Spares



Spurs 3 titles- Mavs 0

Spurs organization > mavs organization

[Dirk Nowitzki]

:rolleyes :rolleyes You fuckers wont be this joyous come June when we win the title. The Mavs are hungier and deeper than anyone in the league this year and you will see what I mean. Our superstar is out to prove why hes a top 5 player in this league!!

[LilMissSPURfect]

"Terry said he was on vacation in the Bahamas and a man at his hotel kept calling him "D-Wade" as a way of reminding him who won."
:lmao




:cheer :cheer :cheer :lmao :lmao :lmao

[George Gervin's Afro]

:rolleyes :rolleyes You fuckers wont be this joyous come June when we win the title. The Mavs are hungier and deeper than anyone in the league this year and you will see what I mean. Our superstar is out to prove why hes a top 5 player in this league!!


Yeah I know it's real easy to get back to the finals.. :rolleyes

[sanman53]

:rolleyes :rolleyes You fuckers wont be this joyous come June when we win the title. The Mavs are hungier and deeper than anyone in the league this year and you will see what I mean. Our superstar is out to prove why hes a top 5 player in this league!!

"D-Wade"

[z0sa]

:rolleyes :rolleyes You fuckers wont be this joyous come June when we win the title. The Mavs are hungier and deeper than anyone in the league this year and you will see what I mean. Our superstar is out to prove why hes a top 5 player in this league!!

Our superstar has been considered top 3 for seven or eight seasons, for stretches number 1. and who said were joyous? I'm personally happy the Mavs think they can beat us. The first step towards your inevitable fall.

[Dirk Nowitzki]

Our superstar has been considered top 3 for seven or eight seasons, for stretches number 1. and who said were joyous? I'm personally happy the Mavs think they can beat us. The first step towards your inevitable fall.

:rolleyes We sent you home round 2 this year so that pretty much means that we did beat/eliminate you. Fact is Mavs improved while the Spurs went backwards. Gonna throw Eric Williams or Bonner on Dirk?? :lol Yeah yeah you have your top 3 and Finley so you will stay contending but your role players wont be good enough to get you past us.

[Zunni]

Dirk's had his "Barkley chance". No more Finals for YOU.

[mavs>spurs2]

How bout we wait till after the season opener to talk shit....

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:rolleyes :rolleyes You fuckers wont be this joyous come June when we win the title. The Mavs are hungier and deeper than anyone in the league this year and you will see what I mean. Our superstar is out to prove why hes a top 5 player in this league!!
Why are you referring to yourself in the 3rd person?

[bendmz]

:rolleyes :rolleyes You fuckers wont be this joyous come June when we win the title. The Mavs are hungier and deeper than anyone in the league this year and you will see what I mean. Our superstar is out to prove why hes a top 5 player in this league!!
:jack

[SAtown]

:rolleyes We sent you home round 2 this year so that pretty much means that we did beat/eliminate you. Fact is Mavs improved while the Spurs went backwards. Gonna throw Eric Williams or Bonner on Dirk?? :lol Yeah yeah you have your top 3 and Finley so you will stay contending but your role players wont be good enough to get you past us.

See, this is exactly the type of "bitch fans" I was talking about seeing all the time at the American Airlines. Seriously, the season hasn't even started, and big fucking deal, you beat us in a scripted series. I'd tell you to "act like you've been there before," BUT, you haven't. The Dallas Mavericks haven't. They've been at the bottom of the league until this guy ( :elephant ) got them out of it.
For real, just keep hugging and kissing that nerdy, big-headed child you have as an owner.
Oh, and have some respect:::::::: 3 rings > 0 rings... son.

OHHHHH, and before I forget, it goes like this:
http://www.fanbay.net/nba/nbachampions.htm

Spurs appear on there 3 times, all 3 they've won.
Mavericks appear on there 1 time, and let's just say, no one remembers 2nd place (losers)... loser.

[judaspriestess]

I just found my official 2005 NBA CHAMPIONS necklace. I had misplaced it. Beautiful.

*sigh* something the mavs fans will never have the pleasure of wearing. A championship necklace, bracelet, watch, tshirt

Spurs = 3 championships
mavs = biggest choke job EVER in the finals broadcast across the globe. Congrats on beating the Spurs, the mavs finest accomplishment

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

"Terry said he was on vacation in the Bahamas and a man at his hotel kept calling him "D-Wade" as a way of reminding him who won."
:lmao:lmao That's awesome

[LEONARD]

you beat us in a scripted series

lmao

[RonMexico]

:rolleyes :rolleyes You fuckers wont be this joyous come June when we win the title. The Mavs are hungier and deeper than anyone in the league this year and you will see what I mean. Our superstar is out to prove why hes a top 5 player in this league!!

The plaque for the alternates is down in the ladies' room.

[RonMexico]

Hmmm - Duncan gets in deciding finals games and posts nearly a quadruple double, while Dirk shoots 39% for the series (after getting every call in the western conference run, which makes it really easy to shoot over 50% when no one can stand within 5 feet of you). Then Dirk goes 2-14 in elimination game to top it off. Championship!!!

[Zunni]

The plaque for the alternates is down in the ladies' room.
This would have been perfect if IcemanCometh had posted it. Still funny as hell, though.

[Obstructed_View]

Why are you referring to yourself in the 3rd person?
He was referring to Devin Harris.

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

mavs will ponder some more next summer


LMAO

[Dirk Nowitzki]

Well from Spurs fans I have been hearing that The spurs are "coming for the Mavs" :rolleyes :blah. Fact is we have many chances left to win while you are about done. Manu wont be anything near 04-05 again, Parker will continue to be awesome tho, and Duncan does have a few good years left but your cast is garbage. Your centers are soft as well and your bench outside of Finley is absolute shit. The Mavs are loaded with youth, depth/talent and athleticism and have a MAJOR chip on their shoulder!

[ShoogarBear]

I bet Dirk spent all summer working on perfecting that clutch pass to Dampier.

[ATX Spur]

I bet Dirk spent all summer working on perfecting that clutch pass to Dampier.

You'd be surprised what you can accomplish when you're listening to Hasselhoff tapes while you practice.

[mavs>spurs2]

I bet Dirk spent all summer working on perfecting that clutch pass to Dampier.

Don't even talk about clutch unless of course you mean Manu Ginobili.

[ShoogarBear]

Manu has a couple of rings and clutch performances in the NBA Finals.

Dirk?

[mavs>spurs2]

Manu has a couple of rings and clutch performances in the NBA Finals.

Dirk?

Got me there no clutch performances in the finals considering he's only been there once, and we all know how that turned out. Although as long as we're talking about last year's playoffs, you have no room to talk.

[ShoogarBear]

Oh, how did I forget that fairly-won Three Point Shootout Championship?

My bad.

[ShoogarBear]

And I bet next time that damn bicycle is GOING DOWN!!!

[mavs>spurs2]

Make all the jokes you want, but guess who got the last laugh? That's right, and we will put you guys out again this season.

[ShoogarBear]

Make all the jokes you want, but guess who got the last laugh? http://www.miami.com/images/miami/miamiherald/14865/220978495715.jpg
Jason Terry clutches the Larry O'Brien trophy.

[mavs>spurs2]

http://www.miami.com/images/miami/miamiherald/14865/220978495715.jpg

Ok jackass, I meant out of the mavs and spurs. All i know is I was so happy in June when everyone around here was pouting and whining.

[RC's Boss]

http://www.miami.com/images/miami/miamiherald/14865/220978495715.jpg
Jason Terry clutches the Larry O'Brien trophy.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :smokin

[SAtown]

Got me there no clutch performances in the finals considering he's only been there once, and we all know how that turned out. Although as long as we're talking about last year's playoffs, you have no room to talk.

I'm sorry, but if you like to talk well about your team, then do so. If you like to talk about how well your team will do this year, then do so. But if you want to talk shit to a fanbase that's been part of "winning and productive" seasons for as long as you have ever heard of the damn sport, just dont. It's not like a Steelers fan talking crap to a Cowboys fan. Or a Lakers fan talking crap to a Spurs fan. Until you win SOMETHING (other than a meaningful series), then don't come here with this crap.

[mavs>spurs2]

I'm sorry, but if you like to talk well about your team, then do so. If you like to talk about how well your team will do this year, then do so. But if you want to talk shit to a fanbase that's been part of "winning and productive" seasons for as long as you have ever heard of the damn sport, just dont. It's not like a Steelers fan talking crap to a Cowboys fan. Or a Lakers fan talking crap to a Spurs fan. Until you win SOMETHING (other than a meaningful series), then don't come here with this crap.

Lol thanks for the warning, internet police. I'm only joking, it's all in good fun lighten up. I'm just ready for the season opener waiting is boring me like crazy. I imagine this place is gonna go crazy with all the mav fans here.

[ponky]

mavs will ponder some more next summer

at least they will have the chance to ponder, whereas the spurs will just go home early....again
:spin

[ponky]

Manu has a couple of rings and clutch performances in the NBA Finals.

Dirk?


typical spurs fan...hey man, it's all about today and the here and now, you can't rest on past accomplishments forever, that is, unless you see no hope for your team's future...it's a new season, man up and stop talking about the past, leave history where it belongs, in the past

[ShoogarBear]

typical spurs fan...hey man, it's all about today and the here and now, you can't rest on past accomplishments forever, that is, unless you see no hope for your team's future...it's a new season, man up and stop talking about the past, leave history where it belongs, in the pastHooookay then.

In the future, we sure look forward to seeing more of that perfected Dirk to Dampier play with the game on the line.

And we'll make sure that lighter, less sturdier exercise bikes are available for Mav postgame workouts.

[Dalhoop]

I actually liked what the article said. Its time to move on the and start thinking about next year. That's what a fan wants to see from his team, no matter where they finished.

As for the Spur / Mavs; It will be another season, and postseason, of close games. All of which will be great to watch. I do happen to think that after the Mavs "getting over the hump" that was the Spurs in the past, have a better chance at defeating them this year then they did last simply because they are no longer "unbeatable in crunch time" in the eyes of the players.

I also think that the Mavs have made better moves then the Spurs this off season, this also gives them a better chance then last year. The Spurs are a very good team and will be hard to beat. Anytime the Mavs and Spurs meet it will be a must see game.

As for the Spurs trash talking .... It is there board, but at the same time I would point out that there are a lot of teams that can hang their hats on winning in the past, because winning now has past them (Celtics and 76'ers come to mind). By always retreating to the "But we won in the Past" comments, you are just showing that you have nothing, Right now, to hang your hat on.

[FromWayDowntown]

I would point out that there are a lot of teams that can hang their hats on winning in the past, because winning now has past them (Celtics and 76'ers come to mind). By always retreating to the "But we won in the Past" comments, you are just showing that you have nothing, Right now, to hang your hat on.

That argument makes no sense. Celtics and Sixers fans can't hang their hats on past titles or successes because nobody on those rosters right now had anything to do with those successes. (Iverson might be the lone exception, because he at least took Philly to a Finals, but they lost). The key players who won rings with the Spurs are, largely, still with the Spurs and (perhaps more importantly) still in their primes. They have contributed mightily to multiple titles in the very recent past. They are still the key players for this team and they were within a hairsbreath of rallying from 3-1 down to send the Mavs fishing in mid-May. It's not as if that past is completely irrelevant to what might happen this season. The Spurs are expected to compete for a title in 2006-07 because they've competed for an won titles in the recent past. Just as the Mavs are expected to compete for a title in 2006-07 because they've now actually competed for a title.

It's ridiculous to discount the recent past.

[BUMP]

who's better right now?

Mavs or Spurs?

thank you :smokin

[Ignorant Spurs fan]

who's better right now?

Mavs or Spurs?

thank you :smokin

shut up Stupid MavBitch!

you guys paid refs, Stern wanted you to win!!!!1 :madrun

Duncan MVP forever!!!!! :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant

[FromWayDowntown]

who's better right now?

Mavs or Spurs?

thank you :smokin

If the past is any indication, the teams are essentially equal.

But, then again, Mavs fan keeps telling me that the past is totally irrelevant. That being the case, I don't know who's better right now. I won't know until they play each other.

[MajorMike]

Lesson learned in Finals: Don't choke.

[FromWayDowntown]

For the record, I think the Mavs have the opportunity to make themselves better because of the Finals experience they went through. How much they do so depends entirely on how willing they are to realize that they lost the Finals because of the things that they did and did not do -- not because they fell victim to some conspiracy or lousy officiating. There was no conspiracy that prevented the Mavs from finishing off Game 3; no officiating held them to 7 points in the 4th Quarter of Game 4. Just as the Spurs have a choice to make about how to respond to what happened in the 2nd Round, the Mavs have a choice to make about how to deal with their collapse in the Finals.

I'd bet that the Mavs will grow from that experience. I'm also betting that the Spurs have grown from their experience. And that should make for another classic showdown between those teams at some point before the playoffs end.

[BUMP]

For the record, I think the Mavs have the opportunity to make themselves better because of the Finals experience they went through. How much they do so depends entirely on how willing they are to realize that they lost the Finals because of the things that they did and did not do -- not because they fell victim to some conspiracy or lousy officiating. There was no conspiracy that prevented the Mavs from finishing off Game 3; no officiating held them to 7 points in the 4th Quarter of Game 4. Just as the Spurs have a choice to make about how to respond to what happened in the 2nd Round, the Mavs have a choice to make about how to deal with their collapse in the Finals.

I'd bet that the Mavs will grow from that experience. I'm also betting that the Spurs have grown from their experience. And that should make for another classic showdown between those teams at some point before the playoffs end.

Thank you.

[BUMP]

See, this is exactly the type of "bitch fans" I was talking about seeing all the time at the American Airlines. Seriously, the season hasn't even started, and big fucking deal, you beat us in a scripted series. I'd tell you to "act like you've been there before," BUT, you haven't. The Dallas Mavericks haven't. They've been at the bottom of the league until this guy ( :elephant ) got them out of it.
For real, just keep hugging and kissing that nerdy, big-headed child you have as an owner.
Oh, and have some respect:::::::: 3 rings > 0 rings... son.


hypocrite

[z0sa]

:rolleyes We sent you home round 2 this year so that pretty much means that we did beat/eliminate you. Fact is Mavs improved while the Spurs went backwards. Gonna throw Eric Williams or Bonner on Dirk?? :lol Yeah yeah you have your top 3 and Finley so you will stay contending but your role players wont be good enough to get you past us.

Dirk isn't who beat us in that playoffs.. it was everyone else. If wed have stuck to our twin tower defense and let dirk have his, we'd have won. I think its fairly simple. And with more mobile big men acquisitions this year, we should be able to play small with the Mavs and thus, beat them.

I think the idea is, we DO let Bonner or Finley on Dirk for three quarters, and let Bowen shut him down come the fourth.

[FromWayDowntown]

Dirk isn't who beat us in that playoffs.. it was everyone else. If wed have stuck to our twin tower defense and let dirk have his, we'd have won. I think its fairly simple. And with more mobile big men acquisitions this year, we should be able to play small with the Mavs and thus, beat them.

I think the idea is, we DO let Bonner or Finley on Dirk for three quarters, and let Bowen shut him down come the fourth.

I think its simpler than that. I don't buy that playing two 7 footers would have changed the outcome.

I do buy that finding guys who can stay with Dirk and make him work for shots while allowing Bowen to play defensively against Howard or Terry would have. I think, in the end, that's what the Spurs have done. Will Elson or Bonner or Oberto or Williams or anyone else stop Dirk? No. But they should be able to do enough, length-wise, to free up Bowen to stay with the Mavs' wings and defend whichever of them gets hot or is giving the Spurs problems. That balances the Spurs defense again and gives them a realistic shot of limiting the number of threats on any given possession. Matchups with Howard, Terry, or Stackhouse are far more favorable for Bruce than a matchup with Dirk. And you're right -- in the end, Bowen can switch to Dirk for key possessions as necessary. That scenario still eliminates any need to have Duncan play Dirk for long stretches, which is useful for keeping one of the league's best rebounders at the rim, where he can end possessions.

I also think that we'll see some usefulness in the Jacque Vaughn acquisition when the Spurs and Mavs matchup. I thought one problem that the Terry/Harris backcourt presented for the Spurs was a matchup problem. Parker can deal with the speed of either of those guys, but Van Exel couldn't, which put guys like Ginobili in bad defensive spots from time-to-time. I actually think that the Spurs went after Vaughn with the specific notion of playing two points on occasion against Dallas and matching up with the Mavs' guards that way. It actually works on both ends. Vaughn isn't a stellar defender, but he's better than average. He's also a decent operator of a team on the offensive end (even if he can't shoot). Pop can play Vaughn for stretches as the point while allowing Parker to play the offensive 2 and defend Terry. It might keep Parker fresher and give the Spurs a better chance to matchup in certain situations.

The Spurs' moves this summer weren't perhaps as flashy as the Mavs' moves, but I do think the Spurs addressed particular schematic problems by finding personnel to address very specific needs.

[Taco]

http://www.nba.com/news/blackbox_060628.html
http://www.nba.com/media/newball_060628_250jd.jpg
The interlocking cross-panel design has one-third the channel area of the previous official ball to provide more material coverage and better grip.

[FromWayDowntown]

And Taco invokes the Chewbacca defense . . . .

[Taco]

And Taco invokes the Chewbacca defense . . . .

:lol

[z0sa]

FromWayDowntown - that's what i was saying. Can we stop Dirk? No. He has officially achieved superstar scorer status. But what we can do is let him have his, while stopping Terry/Howard/Harris from having big games. If Bowen stays on Harris or Terry or Howard for a stretch of time, he will shut them down - i think we can all agree to that. Its when Dirk is having a good game AND terry or howard or harris, thats when we get into trouble.

So what do the Spurs do? Bowen will move around to guard everyone at some point in time, but by default, this is how we do it: We put Parker/Vaughn on Harris or terry, Bowen on Howard, Tim on Dampier/Mbenga (if thats still the correct Mavs roster for centers) and finally Elson, Bonner, or Horry on Dirk. Probably Dirk goes off, but we just keep throwing different defenders at him in hope of throwing him off at least for a stretch or two per game. Now, while we're covering Dirk, we use Bowen to stop the OTHER guy who's having a good game, be it Terry, Harris, or Howard. If none of them are doing great, we leave their proper defenders on them.

The way i see it, Bowen has the length to stop Terry, and the footspeed and sound defensive fundamentals to stop either Harris or Howard. Of course, theres always going to be an x factor we can't plan for: all of them having a good game, or someone coming from the bench. I just think if we stay tall and funnel them to the baseline, we can win much easier - none of that 4-guard bs.

[David Stern]

the less for Mavs and their fans: dont fuck with me :lol

[Dirk41MVP]

We put Parker/Vaughn on Harris or terry,

right, do that and we'll see devin have 20+ point games AGAIN...


The way i see it, Bowen has the length to stop Terry, and the footspeed and sound defensive fundamentals to stop either Harris or Howard.[/Quote}

parker couldn't stay in front of devin, what makes you think a slower, bigger bowen will be able to ?. As far as slowing jho, he could, but you're forgetting about jet, devin, dirk(nobody will be able to guard him), stack, and hopefully AJ.

We got deeper and our depth gave the spurs problems last season, this season doesn't seem like the exception.

And as far as those who think nesterovic or nazr would have slowed dirk down enough for you guys to win, get off the crack pipe. If your best defender couldn't shut him down, what difference would those useless farts have made ?... I'd like to see Nazr covering jho or dirk around the three point line, that would have been fun.

[QUOTE]I just think if we stay tall and funnel them to the baseline, we can win much easier - none of that 4-guard bs.

bottom line: what you morons don't get is that your center (the one guarding dirk or jho) would RARELY, IF EVER be on the baseline on defense. If that's the case, why would you want him out there on the perimeter guarding these 2 mavs ?... seriously, there's sometimes too much stupidity going around.

Face it, you had no answer for dirk, still don't and probably will never have, but nobody does either, he is a matchup nightmare. I think everybody can agree on this. He is one of those players other teams don't have answers for (same for the lebrons, kgs, duncans, etc etc.). We don't expect to shut down duncan, cause nobody in the league can, same for the guys aforementioned.

Saying all this to say I don't see how the REPLACEMENT of 2 centers for another 2 centers is much of an advantage when facing the mavs...

[mavsfan1000]

Saying all this to say I don't see how the REPLACEMENT of 2 centers for another 2 centers is much of an advantage when facing the mavs...

I agree with this. The key is to get a athletic center or athletic power forward that can recover in time to challenge Harris at the basket and challenge Dirk's shot. Those are few and far between though. Elson might be the guy but I kinda doubt it. Duncan has to be the main shotblocker like Shaq was in the Heat series.

[Man In Black]

As always, Dallas homer focuses only on 1 side of the court. The addition of Elson gives the Spurs a bigman that can run.

The centers that Pop used other than Tim Duncan, weren't able to handle the pace of the game,at least that is what Pop felt. Having a guy like Elson, Oberto back for a second year, and a 21 year old True Center in Jackie Butler gives this team more offensive options that last years team. And while it's true that your team finally beat the Spurs in a playoff series, EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE in the hoop world outside of Dallas, feels that had the Spurs been completely healthy...that series would've gone the Spurs way.

[leemajors]

no team is ever completely healthy by the time the playoffs start. they beat us last year, but it's a toss up in the new season. if the spurs or mavs lose this first game, it still doesn't mean jack.

[Dirk41MVP]

EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE in the hoop world outside of Dallas, feels that had the Spurs been completely healthy...that series would've gone the Spurs way.

Ohh right, so I'm the homer for saying that elson and butler won't solve the dirk poblem, but you say you guys were hurt ?.. lol hilarious. duncan was hurt that's why he averaged 30+ and 10+. Ginobili was hurt also, that's why he continued to make bonehead moves, and i'm guessing parker was also hurt...

If that's your argument I can say Dirk was hurt as well (ankle), or we got our 2nd best player suspended, or any # of excuses, but the bottom line is you were healthy and you still lost. I guess Duncan would have averaged 50+ and 30+ had he been "healthy", and ginobili's IQ would be alittle bit higher had he been "healthy" also... lmao good excuses moron.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Ohh right, so I'm the homer for saying that elson and butler won't solve the dirk poblem, but you say you guys were hurt ?.. lol hilarious. duncan was hurt that's why he averaged 30+ and 10+. Ginobili was hurt also, that's why he continued to make bonehead moves, and i'm guessing parker was also hurt...

If that's your argument I can say Dirk was hurt as well (ankle), or we got our 2nd best player suspended, or any # of excuses, but the bottom line is you were healthy and you still lost. I guess Duncan would have averaged 50+ and 30+ had he been "healthy", and ginobili's IQ would be alittle bit higher had he been "healthy" also... lmao good excuses moron.
Why don't you just come out and tell us how you really feel?

[icem]

i think the mavs would beat the spurs again in a series. i think it only went 7 games because jason terry was suspended for game 6. the spurs role players are trash and duncan is in a decline. manu is starting to get injured more and more folks, its all downhill from here....

[Dalhoop]

The moves that the Mavs have made have revealed what they plan to do all season, for the next several season really.

Harris will play PG full time
Terry will play SG full time
Howard will play SF full time
Dirk ...
Dampier will slowly loose minute to Diop.

The main problem with facing this line-up is that your center (by this I mean Duncan) will be playing defense on an island. Dirk will not be near the hoop, therefor, unless you go zone, neither will his defender.

I know that it is nice to think that a defender can stay in front of their man, but reality would indicate otherwise. With picks and set plays, fast guards do get to the rim, I shouldn't have to tell Spurs fans this.

When Parker or Manu gets to rim, Dirk and Diop/Dampier will be there to try for the stop. When Terry or Harris gets to rim ... Only Duncan will be there as Dirks man will be too far out.

If there is a foul under the basket, and only Duncan there, this would be a problem. This is the reason that the Spurs went small in the play-offs. Bowen is quick enough to cover Dirk and recover to the basket. Is Elson quick enough? Butler? Bonner? Oberto?

If not, then Bowen will be moved to Dirk and the Spurs will go small and all you Spurs fans will be on here complaining about small ball again. So when we Mav fans say "Can so-and-so guard Dirk" what we actually mean is "Is he quick enough to get back into defensive position under the basket, while at the same time guarding Dirk"

Now I will admit, I haven't seen much of Butler. I am only going on the fact that he was the third center on the Knicks, who didn't win much last year. Elson was either the second or third Center in Denver, depending on injuries. Neither of those facts would lead me to believe that they are anything special.

I don't think that Parker, Manu and Bowen, can keep Harris, Terry and Howard from the basket. I believe that will set the dominoes in motion that will only lead to the Spurs playing small ball again.

[ShoogarBear]

LMAO at how Mav Fan tries to make this seem like such an unsolvable problem for the Spurs.

If Manu doesn't blow his gasket, all of this would be back to Square One for them.

[Dalhoop]

You know, Maybe if the Spurs hadn't given the Mavs a 20pt lead in game seven, it wouldn't have come down to one play.

You know, If the Spurs weren't outscored 15-7 in OT of an elimination game this confersation wouldn't take place.

Man these Spurs fans think that one play costed them the game. You don't give up a 20 pts lead in game seven on one play. and you don't get outscored in OT on one play either.

You need to get over it and realize that that the Mavs know how to beat the Spurs and proved in Game SEVEN

[mavs>spurs2]

You know, Maybe if the Spurs hadn't given the Mavs a 20pt lead in game seven, it wouldn't have come down to one play.

You know, If the Spurs weren't outscored 15-7 in OT of an elimination game this confersation wouldn't take place.

Man these Spurs fans think that one play costed them the game. You don't give up a 20 pts lead in game seven on one play. and you don't get outscored in OT on one play either.

You need to get over it and realize that that the Mavs know how to beat the Spurs and proved in Game SEVEN


People try to put all the blame on Manu, but Manu didn't give the mavs a 20 point lead by himself in one play. The spurs just got beat, plain and simple.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

The Spurs know how to beat the Mavs too. Look at game 1,5, and 6. Maybe this conversation wouldn't take place if the Mavs kept their lead when they were leading by 20. Maybe this conversation wouldn't take place if Jason Terry didn't punch Michael Finley in the shaboinka. Maybe this conversation wouldn't take place if you didn't let us come back from a 1-3 deficit. There's a lot of maybes. The fact is that one play did cost us that game. Because we were leading by 3 and if Manu didn't foul him we wouldv'e gotten back the ball and we would have been still leading, that is if you remember. That was the past, and this is now. The Spurs are gonna forget about that and go back on the road to a title. :smokin

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

People try to put all the blame on Manu, but Manu didn't give the mavs a 20 point lead by himself in one play. The spurs just got beat, plain and simple.
We got beat because we were winning by 3 and Manu fouled him. If he didn't foul him it could've been a totally different game.

[td4mvp21]

All I see in Mavs fans post are "blah blah we are unguardable blah blah".

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

In a nutshell......yeah, you're right! :lol

[td4mvp21]

They argue in circles, its annoying. Especially considering that the Heat, particularly Haslem, played good defense against Dirk, I wouldn't call the Mavs unguardable at all. The Heat played surprisingly good defense.

[cornbread]

[QUOTE=Dalhoop

You need to get over it and realize that that the Mavs know how to beat the Spurs and proved in Game SEVEN[/QUOTE]


The Mavs know how to beat the Spurs so well that it took them 7 games with the Final game going to overtime to do it. You should be thankful that Ginobili bailed out the Mavs with that bonehead foul. If he hadn't fouled Dirk the Mavs might be remembered for blowing the big lead in the series against the Spurs instead of blowing it against the Heat.

[Dalhoop]

Haslem played Dik very well, far better then I thought that he would. the true star for the Heat though was Zo. I know that Wade did all the flash, but Zo was all substance.

That is what is missing from the Spurs, quality big men. Shaq and Zo in the middle with Haslem and Posey giving speed to PF position. Duncan and ... well .... the depth ends right about there. There is very little speed guarding Dirk, again by that I mean "recovering to the basket while guarding Dirk"

[Dirk Nowitzki]

The series should of ended in 5-6 games in the Mavs favor. You guys couldnt even come close to blowing us out (biggest lead you fuckers had on us that series was like 10 points) while we did it a few times this year. You guys got much worse while we got much better. But hey the Spurs are "gunning" for the Mavs this year! :lol :rolleyes Outside of your big 3 Bowen/Finley your team is full of complete shit yet you think it is enough to beat our squad!! November 2nd we are going to humilate you guys and remind you why you arent on our level this season!! :elephant

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

If you say so, Dirk. Just stick to your opinion and I'll stick to mine.

[Dirk Nowitzki]

If you say so, Dirk. Just stick to your opinion and I'll stick to mine.

Actually I will stick to my FACTS and you can stick to your bullshit opinions. You couldnt get a lead of more then 10 on us while we were up by over 20 on you guys 3 times!! You didnt get better while we did and your supporting cast outside of your Big 5 is SHIT! The truth hurts but it is what it is!

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

You know you are a loser when you are trying to say what ever you say is true and you won't stop talking shit until everyone else's opinion is like yours.

[Dirk Nowitzki]

:rolleyes Why dont you try defending the points I am making about our leads and how we improved while you didnt. My goodness your title says "Oberto will be our center" :lol . Back it up and quit throwing these "loser" comments around

[cornbread]

:rolleyes Why dont you try defending the points I am making about our leads and how we improved while you didnt. My goodness your title says "Oberto will be our center" :lol . Back it up and quit throwing these "loser" comments around

And your center is Ericka "Damn, I'm getting posterized again" Dampier. I'll take Oberto. Atleast he's won something in his career.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Ok fine. Spurs are better than the Mavs. We improved way more than the Mavs. Buckner, Croshere, George, Ager, and Johnson are no comparison for Eric Williams, Elson, Butler, Vaughn, and Bonner. Oberto is gonna kick all the Mavericks's ass. We are gonna go on to win another championship while you are still here trying to make a point about things in the past are gonna effect they ways of the future. We are gonna beat y'all in the west finals because JT is too busy trying to punch people in the shaboinka and Josh Howard will keep calling timeouts when isn't supposed to. Mark Cuban is gonna write in his lame-ass blog how they were cheated because we adapted to the new ball while y'all didn't. There. Are you done, you stupid German piece of shit? By the way, they did they teach how to spell ''didn't'' in Germany? Why don't you make yourself useful and go fight another exercise bike so we can post it on the internet again.

[Dirk Nowitzki]

Ok fine. Spurs are better than the Mavs. We improved way more than the Mavs. Buckner, Croshere, George, Ager, and Johnson are no comparison for Eric Williams, Elson, Butler, Vaughn, and Bonner. Oberto is gonna kick all the Mavericks's ass. We are gonna go on to win another championship while you are still here trying to make a point about things in the past are gonna effect they ways of the future. We are gonna beat y'all in the west finals because JT is too busy trying to punch people in the shaboinka and Josh Howard will keep calling timeouts when isn't supposed to. Mark Cuban is gonna write in his lame-ass blog how they were cheated because we adapted to the new ball while y'all didn't. There. Are you done, you stupid German piece of shit? By the way, they did they teach how to spell ''didn't'' in Germany? Why don't you make yourself useful and go fight another exercise bike so we can post it on the internet again.


:lmao :lmao Oh man I needed a laugh yet I did love the sarcasm. Yep the Spurs will beat the Mavs this year and their cast is so much better! :drunk :drunk

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

You wanted me to say that the Spurs are better just so you can try to ridicule me? LOSER!

[Dirk Nowitzki]

You wanted me to say that the Spurs are better just so you can try to ridicule me? LOSER!

:lol :lol stop my stomach is hurting from laughing! Season cant start any sooner!! :spin :spin

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

How old are you Dirk wannabe?

[mavs>spurs2]

And while it's true that your team finally beat the Spurs in a playoff series, EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE in the hoop world outside of Dallas, feels that had the Spurs been completely healthy...that series would've gone the Spurs way.


Who gave you this inside information? Link? Lmao what a dumbass statement.

[mavs>spurs2]

And your center is Ericka "Damn, I'm getting posterized again" Dampier. I'll take Oberto. Atleast he's won something in his career.

Actually the starting center is Diop, who is better than any spurs center. And Dampier is still better than Oberto. At least Dampier appears to try to rebound and finish inside.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

And how would you know that Oberto doesn't try to rebound?

[mavs>spurs2]

Fixed.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Despite of what anyone will say, I think Oberto will breakout by a lot this season. He isn't the starter for the Olympic champions for nothin'.

[Dirk Nowitzki]

Despite of what anyone will say, I think Oberto will breakout by a lot this season. He isn't the starter for the Olympic champions for nothin'.


:drunk :drunk

I honestly think Mbenga has a better chance of having a better season

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Remember, Dirk. It's my opinion. Don't go all Hitler on me.

[FromWayDowntown]

There's no desire among some Mavs fans to have a real conversation about this. Anyone here would hard-pressed to get those bandwagoners to believe that the Mavs won't go undefeated this year, or at the very least that the Mavs won't end up among the very best teams in the history of the NBA -- good enough to make a run at the 96 Bulls or something along those lines.

It makes me appreciate the reasonable Mav fans. Both of them.

[cornbread]

[QUOTE=mavs>spurs]Actually the starting center is Diop And Dampier is still better than Oberto.

MY bad. Everybody knows Lasanga Diop is the difference maker. I guess I'd be bragging if he was starting center on the Spurs. We'll have to disagree about Dampier and Oberto. Damp's been in the league for 10 years and hasn't done shit besides redefining the word "posterized".

[cornbread]

Despite of what anyone will say, I think Oberto will breakout by a lot this season. He isn't the starter for the Olympic champions for nothin'.

That's what I'm saying! Gold Medal! The dude is a winner.

[Zunni]

Pop quiz Dirk: if SA beats Dallas 4 times by 1 point and Dallas beats SA 3 times by 20, who advances? One word answer only, please.

[mavs>spurs2]

Lasanga Diop

:lol

[ambchang]

I really do not understand how the Mav fans can believe the Mavs improved "a lot" this offseason. Other than Buckner, none of the new additions are worth anything, and they lost Marquis Daniels.
Besides, the Mavs STILL don't have a point guard who can dictate the tempo of the offense, still don't have a decent low post scorer, and Nowitzki still requires help on D. The Mavs are in no way in sure fire finalist this year, and quite frankly, this team reminds me of the Kings a few years back, good, but not good enough. When you have something as sure fire as the a series vs. the Heat, and you lose, you just have a LOT of convincing to do.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I thnk I have figured out why we have so many dickhead Mav posters: championship envy..It's ok mav fans ponder your one shot at winning a championship

[dirk4mvp]

They argue in circles, its annoying. Especially considering that the Heat, particularly Haslem, played good defense against Dirk, I wouldn't call the Mavs unguardable at all. The Heat played surprisingly good defense.


Do you Spurs fans not argue in circles? "Yall won't get back to the Finals!!1! Choke choke choke!! Hasselhoff won't help"

That's about all I hear from the Spurs fans.

[dirk4mvp]

I thnk I have figured out why we have so many dickhead Mav posters: championship envy..It's ok mav fans ponder your one shot at winning a championship


Yeah, I'm sure the Spurs are going to the Finals in 07. They're so much better than the Mavs now it's not even funny.

[phyzik]

Its funny to think how we Spurs fans can have so much respect for one team's fans on this board... but this other teams fans just dont seem to get it. Ignore the idiotic statements by some Spurs fans and step back to realize this is a Spurs board first and foremost.... you should EXPECT some homerism here.


While your taking a step back and pondering that, take a look at yourselves mav fans at how brazen and full of shit some of you have become all because you barely squeeked by the Spurs in a 7 game series.

[mavs>spurs2]

Other than Buckner, none of the new additions are worth anything, and they lost Marquis Daniels.

Anthony Johnson? It's ok, maybe you just don't know shit about baskeball.

I forgive you.

[Emily Rose]

I really do not understand how the Mav fans can believe the Mavs improved "a lot" this offseason. Other than Buckner, none of the new additions are worth anything, and they lost Marquis Daniels.
Besides, the Mavs STILL don't have a point guard who can dictate the tempo of the offense, still don't have a decent low post scorer, and Nowitzki still requires help on D. The Mavs are in no way in sure fire finalist this year, and quite frankly, this team reminds me of the Kings a few years back, good, but not good enough. When you have something as sure fire as the a series vs. the Heat, and you lose, you just have a LOT of convincing to do.


:tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu

[FromWayDowntown]

Anthony Johnson? It's ok, maybe you just don't know shit about baskeball.

I forgive you.

Some Mav fans think Anthony Johnson is a top 10 point guard because he had one really high-scoring playoff game . . . which his team lost.

Of course, those same Mav fans think that Devean George played a substantial role in the Lakers' successes in the early part of the 2000's and that they now have one of the elite role players in the game stashed on their bench.

[Emily Rose]

Some Mav fans think Anthony Johnson is a top 10 point guard because he had one really high-scoring playoff game . . . which his team lost.

Of course, those same Mav fans think that Devean George played a substantial role in the Lakers' successes in the early part of the 2000's and that they now have one of the elite role players in the game stashed on their bench.


:lol :lol so true

[ShoogarBear]

:tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu
Hmmm. Interesting. That's not what you originally posted.

[mavsfan1000]

Some Mav fans think Anthony Johnson is a top 10 point guard because he had one really high-scoring playoff game . . . which his team lost.

Of course, those same Mav fans think that Devean George played a substantial role in the Lakers' successes in the early part of the 2000's and that they now have one of the elite role players in the game stashed on their bench.
Who would think that? They are solid bench players but no one expects a ton out of them. Anthony Johnson just has to do what Darrell Armstrong couldn't do last year. When Harris is struggling or starting you got a guy that can come off the bench and not lose anything. The biggest help was replacing Van Porn with Croshere.

[phyzik]

Game 1: SAS 87, DAL 85 - 2 points
Game 2: DAL 113, SAS 91 - 22 points (only large margin of victory)
Game 3: DAL 104, SAS 103 - 1 point
Game 4: DAL 123, SAS 118 OT - 5 points
Game 5: SAS 98, DAL 97 - 1 point
Game 6: SAS 91, DAL 86 - 5 points
Game 7: DAL 119, SAS 111 - 8 points

Anyone got the regular season stats? I couldnt find them.


You dont have any young athletic wingmen

On the same token, you dont have as many seasoned playoff/championship veterans


Lack a backup pg

Last I checked we picked up a few people that should be able to handle a few minutes, nevermind the fact if Paino Udrih finally decides to stop being a Puss, he is quite capable as a backup. Besides all that, Parker seems to be willing to up his game even more this year.


full of scrubs/pieces of shit

Despite Horry's age you should NEVER count him out, thats a huge mistake people have made more times then I can remember.

Just because you havnt seen Oberto play doesnt make him a scrub, People thought the same about Parker after his first couple of years as PG... look at him now.

Barry stunk it up last year and I wouldnt mind a trade with him involved but I think this year he has something to prove and when he is hot no one can deny his presence on the court, plus I like his hustle, he doesnt give up easily.

Besides all that, if we really ARE full of scrubs/pieces of shit... what does that say about your team that was taken to a full seven game series? Come on, Im trying not to be a homer, cant you?


have proven that we can blow you fuckers out in some games while you can barley win by 2-4 points

see stats above.... one game, and yes it was an embarassment, but dont make it out like The Mavericks can do that on a whim, we have proven over the last 10+ years that we can dominate you... what does that prove?

[mavsfan1000]

The only player on the spurs that I think will get better this year is Parker. No one else will get better so it is Dallas playing pretty much the same team this year. Dallas is slightly improved so we'll see what happens.

[mavs>spurs2]

Some Mav fans think Anthony Johnson is a top 10 point guard because he had one really high-scoring playoff game . . . which his team lost.

Of course, those same Mav fans think that Devean George played a substantial role in the Lakers' successes in the early part of the 2000's and that they now have one of the elite role players in the game stashed on their bench.

Nobody said he was top 10, but he is a good backup. The arguement someone made was that the only improvement the mavs made was buckner, but Anthony Johnson is obviously an improvement over DA.

[phyzik]

The only player on the spurs that I think will get better this year is Parker. No one else will get better so it is Dallas playing pretty much the same team this year. Dallas is slightly improved so we'll see what happens.

I also honestly feel that there is no way Dirk has a year like the last one. If he does, he better get MVP.

[FromWayDowntown]

It strikes me as asinine to think that Tim Duncan will average less than 20 ppg and closer to 10 rpg than to 13 rpg.

And if Tim proves me right, he will have improved.

[phyzik]

It strikes me as asinine to think that Tim Duncan will average less than 20 ppg and closer to 10 rpg than to 13 rpg.

And if Tim proves me right, he will have improved.

exactly... call it what you will but a large number of the Spurs main roster was injured for the majority of last season, to say they wont improve over that is a bit of a stretch.

[mavs>spurs2]

It strikes me as asinine to think that Tim Duncan will average less than 20 ppg and closer to 10 rpg than to 13 rpg.

And if Tim proves me right, he will have improved.

But will he improve upon his 32ppg and 12rpg during the semifinals?

[phyzik]

But will he improve upon his 32ppg and 12rpg during the semifinals?

He probably CAN do it, but does he really need to? That remains to be seen. All this talk about Spurs are better then mavs and Mavs are better then spurs is all just supposition. Until we see how each team plays towards the end of the season EVERYONE is just blowing smoke out of their internet asses.

[FromWayDowntown]

But will he improve upon his 32ppg and 12rpg during the semifinals?

If he's defended the same way in a playoff series, I'd be shocked if he didn't.

Given that the Spurs have added depth to their roster and likely won't be running out of gas at the end of such games, I'm also inclined to believe that he'll make those end-of-game shots that he missed last spring, even if his numbers aren't as crazy-good as they were last May.

If he makes those shots -- and I do think he will -- it's not going to be pretty for the Mavericks.

[ambchang]

Anthony Johnson? It's ok, maybe you just don't know shit about baskeball.

I forgive you.

It is quite a bold statement to label someone you have never talked to about don't knowing anything about basketball.
And you are talking about Anthony Johnson? The some player who played for 6 teams in 8 years (now his 7th in 9 years)? The slower than tortoise PG who fits into the Pacers system, but is now on a Mavs team that relies on quickness on perimeter defense? The player who played relatively well as a Pacer because of their PG oriented offense vs. the free flowing offense on the Mavs?
In retrospect, the only thing that showed me not knowing anything about basketball is that I actually think Buckner could be of significant impact.

[FromWayDowntown]

And you are talking about Anthony Johnson? The some player who played for 6 teams in 8 years (now his 7th in 9 years)? The slower than tortoise PG who fits into the Pacers system, but is now on a Mavs team that relies on quickness on perimeter defense? The player who played relatively well as a Pacer because of their PG oriented offense vs. the free flowing offense on the Mavs?

but . . . but . . . but . . . he scored 40 points in a playoff game last spring.

[ambchang]

The only player on the spurs that I think will get better this year is Parker. No one else will get better so it is Dallas playing pretty much the same team this year. Dallas is slightly improved so we'll see what happens.
So who do you see as someone who would improve on the Mavs this year? People continue to talk about how the Mavs are better, but how?
Nowitzki is as good as you can get offensively, he might improve this year, but if he could improve significantly over last year, he would be Larry Bird, and since Bird is a once in a lifetime kind of player, and I am not dead yet, I doubt Dirk would be that good.
Josh Howard has improved last year based mostly on increased minutes (at least statistically). He is probably the player with the most upside this year on the Mavs. He reminds people of a young Pippen, which is fair, but it remains to be seen whether he could mature into a prime Pippen.
Devin Harris is quick as hell, and has no jumpshot, his next significant improvement comes from a consistent jumper, and I have seen little evidence of this developing.
Who else is there to improve?
BTW, I don't think Parker will improve too much this year. He is already pretty damned good, and after 5 years, he is probably as good as he will ever get.
Young != going to get better.

[ambchang]

Nobody said he was top 10, but he is a good backup. The arguement someone made was that the only improvement the mavs made was buckner, but Anthony Johnson is obviously an improvement over DA.
So you would think Anthony Johnson is going to make some impact with the minutes he is going to get behind Jason Terry and Devin Harris? How many minutes do you expect him to get anyways? 10? 20? 30?
I am guessing somewhere close to 10 to 12 minutes a game, too few for him to make any real impact.

[Emily Rose]

Hmmm. Interesting. That's not what you originally posted.


Yes it was called sarcasm but I responded to the wrong person then decided to just forget even posting it to prevent this thread from going even more insane. :fro

[mavs>spurs2]

So you would think Anthony Johnson is going to make some impact with the minutes he is going to get behind Jason Terry and Devin Harris? How many minutes do you expect him to get anyways? 10? 20? 30?
I am guessing somewhere close to 10 to 12 minutes a game, too few for him to make any real impact.

I think he will get somewhere around 15-18 minutes per game, enough time to provide solid backup minutes for Terry and Harris. This is more than we could have gotten from DA, that's why I say he's an improvement.

[mavsfan1000]

So who do you see as someone who would improve on the Mavs this year? People continue to talk about how the Mavs are better, but how?
Nowitzki is as good as you can get offensively, he might improve this year, but if he could improve significantly over last year, he would be Larry Bird, and since Bird is a once in a lifetime kind of player, and I am not dead yet, I doubt Dirk would be that good.
Josh Howard has improved last year based mostly on increased minutes (at least statistically). He is probably the player with the most upside this year on the Mavs. He reminds people of a young Pippen, which is fair, but it remains to be seen whether he could mature into a prime Pippen.
Devin Harris is quick as hell, and has no jumpshot, his next significant improvement comes from a consistent jumper, and I have seen little evidence of this developing.
Who else is there to improve?
BTW, I don't think Parker will improve too much this year. He is already pretty damned good, and after 5 years, he is probably as good as he will ever get.
Young != going to get better.

Harris will improve his jumper and his strength this year which will make him better.
Howard will continue to improve his jumper as well and more post moves hopefully.
Diop will get in even better shape this year and be a shotblocking force and be able to be out there longer without wearing down.
That is possibly 3 out of the 5 starters that could be better.

[remingtonbo2001]

Harris will improve his jumper and his strength this year which will make him better.
Howard will continue to improve his jumper as well and more post moves hopefully.
Diop will get in even better shape this year and be a shotblocking force and be able to be out there longer without wearing down.
That is possibly 3 out of the 5 starters that could be better.


Let's give it up for this year's KINGS.....The Dallas Mavericks

Dallas has a very talented group of players....No doubt
A very talented coach, whom by the way, has taken more than a few pages from SPURS management

Then why, OH WHY, are the MAVS still RINGLESS

ONE ANSWER, as it always will be, MARK CUBAN

Just like Flip Saunders, Chris Webber, the entire Sacremento Kings for that matter, Charles Barkely, ect....The Mavericks will not win an NBA CHAMPIONSHIP under Mark Cuban

Why....................No Humulity, as well a deep lack of respect towards opposing teams

[George Gervin's Afro]

Let's give it up for this year's KINGS.....The Dallas Mavericks

Dallas has a very talented group of players....No doubt
A very talented coach, whom by the way, has taken more than a few pages from SPURS management

Then why, OH WHY, are the MAVS still RINGLESS

ONE ANSWER, as it always will be, MARK CUBAN

Just like Flip Saunders, Chris Webber, the entire Sacremento Kings for that matter, Charles Barkely, ect....The Mavericks will not win an NBA CHAMPIONSHIP under Mark Cuban

Why....................No Humulity, as well a deep lack of respect towards opposing teams


It's called karma.. and no answer for Tim Duncan. :lol

[Dalhoop]

Mavs

I see Harris improving. With starters minutes comes more time on the floor, that translates to stats and experience. He is very likely to improve.

Terry, moving to SG will make him more of a pure shooter, already his main strength. I can see some improvement in his points, but not by an large amount.

Howard will get better, not necessarily in the scoring, though that could happen, but mostly in his defensive and rebounding .... I really like the player he is becoming.

I here Dirk is emphasizes his passing this off season, he should work on Dampiers ball handling. I don't see much improvement or decline.

Dampier will still have his hands of stone, but this year they will only show themselves when he is alone under the basket ... Unfortunately I don't see much change with him.

Diop will now be in his second year of getting steady minutes. Though still sharing minutes, I see him taking more and more minutes from Dampier. I expect a slight improvement in his game, mostly in the defensive area.

Our back-up PG job goes from Harris (Now the starter) to Jackson. I would expect less mistakes, but slower speed .... This is a push.

The Starting SG goes from Griffen (gone) to Terry. This is a massive improvement. Back-ups go from Danials (gone) to Buckner (If Buckner gets minutes, its an improvement.

Spurs

Parker doesn't have much room for improvement, if any, it would be slight.

Manu, maybe is just me, but it seems as though injuries are a part of his game now. I don't think he can return to the Manu of a few years ago, but he could improve a little over last year.

Bowen will be the same player that he has been for most of his career, unless age catches him, but he is pretty quick vs Age. No improvement.

Duncan, This is a tough call. The Spurs are a three man team, any improvement on the score board will be at the cost of Parker and Manu's shots. Can he get better defensively? I think that his numbers will improve (at the expense of Parker), but for the most part he will still be MVP caliber Duncan.

With minutes comes development and experience. Both Elson and Butler will like the minutes, what kind of games they have (or don't) with these minutes is anyone's guess. Improvement is assured

Back-up PG goes from NVE (gone) to Vaughn, if Vaughn gives anything, its an improvement.

Back-up PF goes from Horry (aging, may retire) to Bonner (if he wins the job). Horry gave nothing in the playoffs last year and looked very tired, Bonner at least has youth. I am going to say push on this one. The amount of minutes will not be something to write home about.

Centers go from Rasho and Nasr (both gone) to Elson and Butler. Neither new guy has put up numbers like the old guys, but then they have never gotten the opportunity with the minutes. I can't see the new combo doing more then 12-10 combined, this would be a push.

Both teams have improved, but the move of Terry to SG will be the biggest change for the Mavs. They will no longer have Griffen (No shot), someone you could "play off of", on the floor. All Mavs would have to be guarded full time. This is an big improvement, more-so then the Spurs.

[FromWayDowntown]

Wow. Color me shocked that Mav fan thinks that most of the players on his team, as well as the team as a whole, will improve significantly, while believing that the Spurs are basically topped out.

http://mud.mm-a2.yimg.com/image/352897276

[Dalhoop]

Wow. Color me shocked that Mav fan thinks that most of the players on his team, as well as the team as a whole, will improve significantly, while believing that the Spurs are basically topped out.

WOW, you didn't read it, but you did post on it. I mentioned three Mavs that would improve (Harris, Howard and Diop) and one that may improve slightly (Terry)

I mentioned three Spurs that would improve (Duncan, Butle and Elson) and two that would improve slightly (Parker and Manu)


Both teams have improved

Only a Spurs fan would think this is "topped out"

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Mavs

I see Harris improving. With starters minutes comes more time on the floor, that translates to stats and experience. He is very likely to improve.

Terry, moving to SG will make him more of a pure shooter, already his main strength. I can see some improvement in his points, but not by an large amount.

Howard will get better, not necessarily in the scoring, though that could happen, but mostly in his defensive and rebounding .... I really like the player he is becoming.

I here Dirk is emphasizes his passing this off season, he should work on Dampiers ball handling. I don't see much improvement or decline.

Dampier will still have his hands of stone, but this year they will only show themselves when he is alone under the basket ... Unfortunately I don't see much change with him.

Diop will now be in his second year of getting steady minutes. Though still sharing minutes, I see him taking more and more minutes from Dampier. I expect a slight improvement in his game, mostly in the defensive area.

Our back-up PG job goes from Harris (Now the starter) to Jackson. I would expect less mistakes, but slower speed .... This is a push.

The Starting SG goes from Griffen (gone) to Terry. This is a massive improvement. Back-ups go from Danials (gone) to Buckner (If Buckner gets minutes, its an improvement.

Spurs

Parker doesn't have much room for improvement, if any, it would be slight.

Manu, maybe is just me, but it seems as though injuries are a part of his game now. I don't think he can return to the Manu of a few years ago, but he could improve a little over last year.

Bowen will be the same player that he has been for most of his career, unless age catches him, but he is pretty quick vs Age. No improvement.

Duncan, This is a tough call. The Spurs are a three man team, any improvement on the score board will be at the cost of Parker and Manu's shots. Can he get better defensively? I think that his numbers will improve (at the expense of Parker), but for the most part he will still be MVP caliber Duncan.

With minutes comes development and experience. Both Elson and Butler will like the minutes, what kind of games they have (or don't) with these minutes is anyone's guess. Improvement is assured

Back-up PG goes from NVE (gone) to Vaughn, if Vaughn gives anything, its an improvement.

Back-up PF goes from Horry (aging, may retire) to Bonner (if he wins the job). Horry gave nothing in the playoffs last year and looked very tired, Bonner at least has youth. I am going to say push on this one. The amount of minutes will not be something to write home about.

Centers go from Rasho and Nasr (both gone) to Elson and Butler. Neither new guy has put up numbers like the old guys, but then they have never gotten the opportunity with the minutes. I can't see the new combo doing more then 12-10 combined, this would be a push.

Both teams have improved, but the move of Terry to SG will be the biggest change for the Mavs. They will no longer have Griffen (No shot), someone you could "play off of", on the floor. All Mavs would have to be guarded full time. This is an big improvement, more-so then the Spurs.

How the fuck can you say Tony doesn't have room for improvement? HE'S 23!!! And replacing Marquis Daniels with Greg Buckner is not an improvement. And you say that Harris looks like he's gonna improve. The same could be said for Parker. They are both young and are gonna be given a lot of minutes. So how does Harris improve but Tony doesn't?

[LEONARD]

Mavs >>> Spares...

EASILY!!! :fro

[George Gervin's Afro]

Mavs >>> Spares...

EASILY!!! :fro


Spurs > Mavs easily..

[Dalhoop]

How the fuck can you say Tony doesn't have room for improvement? HE'S 23!!!

Last year he had an All-Star year, most of this was do to an injury to Duncan. Parker had to do more for the team to win. He came through with flying colors. With Duncan back to full strength (we think). He will once again be the focus of the offense, taking more touches from Tony. I didn't say he wouldn't improve, I said it would be slight.


And replacing Marquis Daniels with Greg Buckner is not an improvement.

Danials didn't have the trust of the coach, he didn't get the minutes. Like I said, anyone that gets minutes, is better then someone that doesn't.


And you say that Harris looks like he's gonna improve. The same could be said for Parker. They are both young and are gonna be given a lot of minutes. So how does Harris improve but Tony doesn't?

Parker has been getting starter minutes for several years now, he has been running the offense for several years now. He is about as far from a player being named the starting PG for his team then you can get. Harris will be given the keys to the car for the first time .... without need to look over his shoulder. This will be his first year of getting 30-35 minutes at the point, instead of coming off the bench as a back-up.

These are two different situations. Parker will get the same minutes as last year, and in those same minutes, he is expected to do more then he did last year? Thats a little hard to ask. Harris will be given more time ... Just based on the minutes alone his production should go up, even if, as a player, his game doesn't improve. The minutes alone will give him more shots, passes and drives to the hoop.

It is much more likely that Harris PPG and APG will jump simply buy getting more minutes. Parker has to do more with the same minutes and a healthy cast .... a much more difficult task to accomplish given his high standard of last year.

And again I didn't say he wouldn't improve, I said it would be slight

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Last year he had an All-Star year, most of this was do to an injury to Duncan. Parker had to do more for the team to win. He came through with flying colors. With Duncan back to full strength (we think). He will once again be the focus of the offense, taking more touches from Tony. I didn't say he wouldn't improve, I said it would be slight.



Danials didn't have the trust of the coach, he didn't get the minutes. Like I said, anyone that gets minutes, is better then someone that doesn't.



Parker has been getting starter minutes for several years now, he has been running the offense for several years now. He is about as far from a player being named the starting PG for his team then you can get. Harris will be given the keys to the car for the first time .... without need to look over his shoulder. This will be his first year of getting 30-35 minutes at the point, instead of coming off the bench as a back-up.

These are two different situations. Parker will get the same minutes as last year, and in those same minutes, he is expected to do more then he did last year? Thats a little hard to ask. Harris will be given more time ... Just based on the minutes alone his production should go up, even if, as a player, his game doesn't improve. The minutes alone will give him more shots, passes and drives to the hoop.

It is much more likely that Harris PPG and APG will jump simply buy getting more minutes. Parker has to do more with the same minutes and a healthy cast .... a much more difficult task to accomplish given his high standard of last year.

And again I didn't say he wouldn't improve, I said it would be slight

How do you know Parker will be given the same amount of minutes? We don't have a backup that's developed enough in the Spurs system right now so he can be given more time. He's very athletic so he can handle it. But you have Anthony Johnson and I don't think anyone knows if he's developed a lot yet. You say now that he won't have bigger numbers because he'll share the ball with Duncan and Manu, but the same can be said with Harris not improving much because he'll have to share the ball with Dirk and JT and Josh. So both players can stay the same, but both players apg can go up by having to share it so much.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I think the biggest question to ponder is if the Mavs have that parade route planned out yet? :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Hey Dalhoop, would you rather have Bonzi or Ager? Just a quick question of curiosity.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Then we can go back to arguing.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Mavs rookie Ager lays it on thick

Ager making impact with compact frame, aggressive style of play


01:42 AM CDT on Monday, October 9, 2006

By EDDIE SEFKO / The Dallas Morning News

The Mavericks toyed with the idea of signing Bonzi Wells before the swingman landed in Houston.

They opted not to make a strong play for Wells for many reasons. One of those reasons is because they feel they have a Bonzi starter kit in their possession – without the potential headaches that could come along with the original version, who has had his share of off-court situations.

Maurice Ager is built like Wells. He has the same, rare combination of thickness and quickness. He's a good rebounder for his height, which is the same as Wells' 6-5. And he's quick, tough and doesn't mind working hard at the defensive end of the court.

In short, the Mavericks think the rookie out of Michigan State has the potential to play like Bonzi. That would give the team plenty of options at small forward and shoot- ing guard beyond this season.

Jerry Stackhouse will be a free agent next season, as will Josh Howard, although Howard will be restricted. Because of this, the Mavericks feel they need to see how strong Ager can be this season.

"I've always tried to be aggressive," Ager said Sunday. "If you're tentative, you're not going to play as well. We lift a lot of weights at Michigan State. You got to be tough. And that toughness has helped me get to this level. Honestly, I like going to the basket. Sometimes I'll settle for the 3. But my game is driving the paint."

He's definitely not afraid to be assertive, which is a nice way to say that a rookie is shooting too much.

Through the first week of training camp, Ager has been, as Mavericks coach Avery Johnson says, a typical rookie. He has flashed some solid signs of his considerable ability. And he's dribbled the ball off his feet a few times, too.

But mostly, Ager has shot whenever the opportunity presented itself. And, sometimes, even when it didn't. As Johnson said during two-a-days in Denton, "his name is not listed next to 'passing' in Webster's dictionary."

Maurice Ager, shown holding his jersey at the Mavericks news conference welcoming him, took more shots than anyone in a scrimmage in Sunday's Fan Jam. That much was clear Sunday during a scrimmage that was part of the Fan Jam at American Airlines Center. Ager had a long jumper and a tough layup in traffic in the first half. He finished 4-of-11 from the field and had 13 points for the victorious Blue team, which beat the White squad, 61-57. Ager took more shots than anybody else in the 40-minute game.

"He's aggressive," Johnson said. "He's full of energy. And he was really excited to put on his uniform. We want him to continue to feel that way in March and May and maybe June."

Ager said it was an indescribable feeling putting on the official uniform for the first time in a game situation. He told Jason Terry before the game that he was overwhelmed at the thought of finally reaching the NBA.

"This doesn't feel real," he said. "It's been a dream all my life. A lot of people don't get this far."

The Mavericks are banking on Ager getting even further before his career is done.

[ambchang]

I think he will get somewhere around 15-18 minutes per game, enough time to provide solid backup minutes for Terry and Harris. This is more than we could have gotten from DA, that's why I say he's an improvement.

I suppose that is what we disagree on.
BTW, the improvement the Mavs need is not in the regular season, they are potent there, and that is where depth makes the most impact.
In the playoffs, a team runs 7, maybe 8 deep, so depth at the 3rd backup PG is minimal. You can argue that his play at 3rd backup PG can relief Terry and Harris in the regular season, keeping them fresh, but then history has proved that a team does not need an incredibly deep team to win the championship, in fact, outside of the Pistons of the late 80's, I can't think of a team that won the title based on depth (2004 Pistons won on their starting five). A team usually win on the account of 3 or 4 players.
In fact, come to think of it (new theory here), a team that relies on multiple players to peak runs a higher risk in the playoffs than a team that relies on 2 or 3 players.
For example, we all know the Spurs title hopes are done with if Duncan goes down in the playoffs, no matter who his backup is. An injury to either Ginobili, Parker and Bowen significantly impacts the chances of the Spurs advancing. In the span of 82 games, the chances of injury to any of the 4 players is high, and given that there is a high level of disparity between the talent in teams, the Spurs can have a decent backup at any of the position, and still maybe keep the momentum going, BUT if an injury happens in the playoffs, which happens between 16 to 28 games, and because the talent of your competition improves so much more in the playoffs, it matters little who your replacement for the 4 is, your chance at a championship is severely compromised.
Now for a team like the Mavs, who require more parts to function. Nowitzki is obviously the one the whole team's title hopes lie on, but if an injury happens to Terry, Stackhouse, Howard, and maybe even Harris, the chances of a title gets severely compromised. But of course, injuries (freak injuries I mean) are a chance incident, the Mavs reliance on 5 players, vs. the Spurs reliance on 4 players, is actually a disadvantage.
I haven't really thought this through thoroughly, and obviously haven't, and will not, create a model to prove/disprove this, so feel free to discuss.

[z0sa]

I think this is right... the less players you rely on, the better off you generally are. Just look at Team USA.

[ambchang]

Harris will improve his jumper and his strength this year which will make him better.
Howard will continue to improve his jumper as well and more post moves hopefully.
Diop will get in even better shape this year and be a shotblocking force and be able to be out there longer without wearing down.
That is possibly 3 out of the 5 starters that could be better.

Harris HAS to improve his jumper and strength to improve.
Howard HAS to improve his jumper to improve.
Diop HAS to improve some way, the guy has been in the league for 5 years and has been a total bust
And yes, they COULD be better, but will they? Frankly, I am not so sure.
Howard has improved from 1st the 2nd year based mostly on more minutes, and 2nd to 3rd year based mostly on a changed role (namely, more on the offensive end). We have seen his steals, blocks, and rebounds drop on a per 48 minute basis over the last few years, and increase in FGA and FTA. Is he a better player than his rookie year? Absolutely! But his efficiency stayed relatively constant over that period. Which means that his improvement came mostly at the expense of his teammates'.
Harris is the latest of the super quick with no jump shot PG. Jump shots don't happen to just fall. Good shooters usually starts off as good shooters. In fact, look at a guy like Jason Kidd, he can't shoot, and he can't shoot, it doesn't matter how much he practice, he still can't! Sure, there are guys like Magic, Isiah, Jordan and Drexler who improved their outside shot dramatically through their careers, but that's why they are legends.
Spurs fan could just as easily say that Parker can be a 3 point threat, Butler is going to be a monster down low, Ginobili and Duncan will be the healthiest they have been in 6 years, and that holds just as much water as your argument.

[ambchang]

Mavs

I see Harris improving. With starters minutes comes more time on the floor, that translates to stats and experience. He is very likely to improve.
That means he is going to take it away from somebody else.


Terry, moving to SG will make him more of a pure shooter, already his main strength. I can see some improvement in his points, but not by an large amount.
At 6'2" he will be KILLED on defense if this happens.


Howard will get better, not necessarily in the scoring, though that could happen, but mostly in his defensive and rebounding .... I really like the player he is becoming.
Please see my previous post, his defensive stats have actually declined on a per 48 minute basis over the last 3 years.


I here Dirk is emphasizes his passing this off season, he should work on Dampiers ball handling. I don't see much improvement or decline.

Dampier will still have his hands of stone, but this year they will only show themselves when he is alone under the basket ... Unfortunately I don't see much change with him.
Agreed


Diop will now be in his second year of getting steady minutes. Though still sharing minutes, I see him taking more and more minutes from Dampier. I expect a slight improvement in his game, mostly in the defensive area.
Again, he has shown ZERO improvement in 5 years, and still averges over 6 fouls per 40 minutes.


Our back-up PG job goes from Harris (Now the starter) to Jackson. I would expect less mistakes, but slower speed .... This is a push.
I suppose you mean Johnson. I seriously cannot see how replacing Harris with Johnson is a push. He can run the team better, but then the Mavs run their offense through their PF, not PG, anyways. His lack of speed on the perimeter requires a LOT of help defense for quick PG, say .... Parker?


The Starting SG goes from Griffen (gone) to Terry. This is a massive improvement. Back-ups go from Danials (gone) to Buckner (If Buckner gets minutes, its an improvement.
But you lost a backup at point! (I disagree on how Johnson is an equivalent with Harris). And Buckner is NOT an improvement over Daniels, no matter how you spin it. That's why Daniels got such a huge contract (well, we all know Cuban overpays unnecesarily, but still). He may be more disciplined, but I am not sure if he is better.


Spurs

Parker doesn't have much room for improvement, if any, it would be slight.

Manu, maybe is just me, but it seems as though injuries are a part of his game now. I don't think he can return to the Manu of a few years ago, but he could improve a little over last year.

Bowen will be the same player that he has been for most of his career, unless age catches him, but he is pretty quick vs Age. No improvement.

Duncan, This is a tough call. The Spurs are a three man team, any improvement on the score board will be at the cost of Parker and Manu's shots. Can he get better defensively? I think that his numbers will improve (at the expense of Parker), but for the most part he will still be MVP caliber Duncan.

With minutes comes development and experience. Both Elson and Butler will like the minutes, what kind of games they have (or don't) with these minutes is anyone's guess. Improvement is assured

Back-up PG goes from NVE (gone) to Vaughn, if Vaughn gives anything, its an improvement.

Back-up PF goes from Horry (aging, may retire) to Bonner (if he wins the job). Horry gave nothing in the playoffs last year and looked very tired, Bonner at least has youth. I am going to say push on this one. The amount of minutes will not be something to write home about.

Centers go from Rasho and Nasr (both gone) to Elson and Butler. Neither new guy has put up numbers like the old guys, but then they have never gotten the opportunity with the minutes. I can't see the new combo doing more then 12-10 combined, this would be a push.

Both teams have improved, but the move of Terry to SG will be the biggest change for the Mavs. They will no longer have Griffen (No shot), someone you could "play off of", on the floor. All Mavs would have to be guarded full time. This is an big improvement, more-so then the Spurs.
Again, Terry will be KILLED on defense at SG, Buckner is as weak an offensive player as Griffen is.
As for the Spurs, I don't think much was improved in terms of talent, and in terms of a change in philosophy change, we will have to wait a few games to see.

[z0sa]

I think the Spurs addressed specific problems, while the Mavs just tried to get generally better. In the end, I think Terry is the x factor in every prediction about who wins. If he can find a way to go off like he did against the Spurs during the playoffs last season, then it will be a another tough series. If not, Spurs in 6. Dirk has never been able to take his team over the top alone - before he had Nash and Finley when they got to the conference finals; now Terry and Howard are stepping up to fill in their spaces. But I think, just like before, the Spurs can stop everyone but dirk and let dirk have his.

Its just about playing twin tower defense, not going small. You have to think about it: sure, when Dirk is isolating at the top of the key, our help big man will be by himself to stop someone who would be driving in. BUT, when someone like Harris or Howard are driving in, technically we will have help big men, because you must remember that Dirk is going to be going for the rebound if they miss, and if they pass it out to him, we shift and someone like Bowen or Bonner gets on him, so I think we can shut down all the other players and throw dirk off a little bit. At least, thats my theory.

[mavsfan1000]

Again, Terry will be KILLED on defense at SG, Buckner is as weak an offensive player as Griffen is.
As for the Spurs, I don't think much was improved in terms of talent, and in terms of a change in philosophy change, we will have to wait a few games to see.
Harris will guard the better player. Either the point guard or shooting guard. Unless Kobe Bryant or Mcgrady play shooting guard I don't think it is that bad of a mismatch.

[td4mvp21]

Do you Spurs fans not argue in circles? "Yall won't get back to the Finals!!1! Choke choke choke!! Hasselhoff won't help"

That's about all I hear from the Spurs fans.

I'm sure we do at times but its not as prevalent. Most of our arguements can be backed up too.

[ambchang]

Harris will guard the better player. Either the point guard or shooting guard. Unless Kobe Bryant or Mcgrady play shooting guard I don't think it is that bad of a mismatch.
And that is precisely the problem, it's either Harris or Terry who will guard the opposition's SG if both are on the floor at the same time. One is a skinny 6'3", the other is a skinnier 6'2", any team with a long SG, which basically is every elite team will take advantage of this matchup.
It's the classic example of giving up defense for the sake of offense, which was the old Mavs, but I doubt Avery Johnson would go for that, because that coach is defense first and foremast.
Anyways, the Mavs MAY improve, but I see the improvement as minimal, and by as about the same amount as the Spurs, if that.

[Amarelooms]

And that is precisely the problem, it's either Harris or Terry who will guard the opposition's SG if both are on the floor at the same time. One is a skinny 6'3", the other is a skinnier 6'2", any team with a long SG, which basically is every elite team will take advantage of this matchup.
It's the classic example of giving up defense for the sake of offense, which was the old Mavs, but I doubt Avery Johnson would go for that, because that coach is defense first and foremast.
Anyways, the Mavs MAY improve, but I see the improvement as minimal, and by as about the same amount as the Spurs, if that.


Umm you know nothing about basketball. The mavs lineup will change based on the opponent. If they need to guard an athletic taller SG then Harris will come off the bench and Buckner or George will start.

Secondly only a Spurs homer would say the Spurs had a better offseason than the Mavs. The Mavs got deeper and more athletic.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm shocked that the Spurs are even bothering to go forward with the 2006-07 season, given the changes the Mavs have made.

[Dalhoop]

Hey Dalhoop, would you rather have Bonzi or Ager? Just a quick question of curiosity.

This question was a while back, but I think that ... Right now, with the team as it is, I would rather have Ager.

We have a great deal of SG-SF's on the team. (Terry, Buckner, Stackhouse, Howard, Brown and Ager) Having one or more of them that are not expecting many minutes is a blessing in disguise.

As the situation stands right now, there are too many bodys. Adding a personality like Wells would not match with the minutes that would be on the table.

Now if the question was for Buckner and Brown for Bonzi, I would go with Wells as he would be getting the minutes to make him happy. We simply don't have the minutes at the positions to make him happy.

[mavsfan1000]

And that is precisely the problem, it's either Harris or Terry who will guard the opposition's SG if both are on the floor at the same time. One is a skinny 6'3", the other is a skinnier 6'2", any team with a long SG, which basically is every elite team will take advantage of this matchup.
It's the classic example of giving up defense for the sake of offense, which was the old Mavs, but I doubt Avery Johnson would go for that, because that coach is defense first and foremast.
Anyways, the Mavs MAY improve, but I see the improvement as minimal, and by as about the same amount as the Spurs, if that.
Well Ginobili wasn't able to exploit that matchup as much as he would with someone slower like Griffin or Daniels on him. Terry at shooting guard works fine against the spurs.

[mavs>spurs2]

I'm shocked that the Spurs are even bothering to go forward with the 2006-07 season, given the changes the Mavs have made.

Shut the hell up. The mavs had a better offseason, get over it. Don't even try to argue, there is nothing to argue about. The spurs offseason sucked. Just shut up and hope Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili can carry most of the load.

[FromWayDowntown]

Shut the hell up. The mavs had a better offseason, get over it. Don't even try to argue, there is nothing to argue about. The spurs offseason sucked. Just shut up and hope Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili can carry most of the load.

It's curious that a subject as to which "there is nothing to argue about" has spawned a thread that is already 6 pages (and more than 150 posts) long, with most of those posts dealing with teh very thing as to which you say "there is nothing to argue about."

Good call on your part.

[FromWayDowntown]

Besides, if there's nothing to argue about, then you've made my point -- the Spurs weren't better than the Mavericks last season and the Mavericks have had a better offseason, which presumably makes them even better than the Spurs. If that's the case, why bother with the season? Understandably, then, I'm surprised the Spurs are even bothering.

[mavs>spurs2]

Besides, if there's nothing to argue about, then you've made my point -- the Spurs weren't better than the Mavericks last season and the Mavericks have had a better offseason, which presumably makes them even better than the Spurs. If that's the case, why bother with the season? Understandably, then, I'm surprised the Spurs are even bothering.

I guess if that's the way you feel. It's not like the mavs won by much, but if you want to give up on your team that's your choice. All im saying is the spurs offseason sucked and that it really isn't much of an argument.

[FromWayDowntown]

I guess if that's the way you feel. It's not like the mavs won by much, but if you want to give up on your team that's your choice. All im saying is the spurs offseason sucked and that it really isn't much of an argument.

I do. I don't understand why the Spurs don't just concede and let the Mavericks get on to the business of winning their next title, or having it stolen from them by the NBA's officials.

Actually, I disagree with pretty much everything you've said, other than the completely valid point that "it's not like the mavs won by much." I also think the Spurs are likely to go deeper into the 2007 playoffs than the Mavericks. I wish I was willing to be as strident as you and claim that nobody can reasonably argue with me, but, well, I choose not to be unreasonable.

[Dalhoop]

Not many teams have a "Star SG" and a "Star SF" (the Rockets are very close, and will be a problem now)

What the Mavs do is to put Howard on the one that they are most worried about (With the Spurs its Manu, because Bowen isn't an offensive threat)

The defensive liability of Terry at SG often is off set by to corresponding miss-match on the other end of the floor having to deal with his speed. That is the Mavs game, making match-ups that other teams don't want to deal with.

The Mavs, by doing this, get teams to play the way that the Mavs play, not the other way around. By going what the Spurs fans call "Small" we forced the Spurs to do the same, even though we didn't go "Small" at all (We still had or SF, PF and C in the game)

[dbreiden83080]

I guess if that's the way you feel. It's not like the mavs won by much, but if you want to give up on your team that's your choice. All im saying is the spurs offseason sucked and that it really isn't much of an argument.

Right and what huge moves did you make in the offseason that make you guys a lock for the finals again, did KG get traded to the MAVS and i missed it. You think your role players are going to get you to the title this year. Last time i checked the Mavs supposed versatility and bench was going to crush the HEAT, did not work out that way did it. The Mavs lost because your boy Dirk was Duncan's equal in the series vs the Spurs and then played like his usual self in game 6 of the finals. I thought Dirk was finally ready to be a champion, well when i saw him jacking up half assed 3pt shots in game 6 instead of driving to the hole like he did against us i knew otherwise. Spurs, Suns and Mavs are all about even as teams and it will be a dogfight in the west this year.

[mavs>spurs2]

Right and what huge moves did you make in the offseason that make you guys a lock for the finals again, did KG get traded to the MAVS and i missed it.

No huge moves, just slight improvements and tweaks here and there. They players the mavs added aren't necessarily all improvements, but they add more defensive toughness. We need that defense and toughness more than we needed an improved bench, our bench was already one of the best.

[ambchang]

Well Ginobili wasn't able to exploit that matchup as much as he would with someone slower like Griffin or Daniels on him. Terry at shooting guard works fine against the spurs.
So who will Harris or Terry guard? Finley? Bowen? Both can shoot over either of them all day, and Finley can post him up pretty good. You can't just say Ginobili will be guarded by somebody else without address who both of these players will guard. No matter who, they are going to give up a LOT of length.
And of course, if they pull this again Miami, Wade is going to eat them alive in the post, McGrady, Kobe, Richardson, and even Raja Bell are ALL going to destroy them.

[ambchang]

Not many teams have a "Star SG" and a "Star SF" (the Rockets are very close, and will be a problem now)

What the Mavs do is to put Howard on the one that they are most worried about (With the Spurs its Manu, because Bowen isn't an offensive threat)

The defensive liability of Terry at SG often is off set by to corresponding miss-match on the other end of the floor having to deal with his speed. That is the Mavs game, making match-ups that other teams don't want to deal with.

The Mavs, by doing this, get teams to play the way that the Mavs play, not the other way around. By going what the Spurs fans call "Small" we forced the Spurs to do the same, even though we didn't go "Small" at all (We still had or SF, PF and C in the game)

That's the touchy point that has been dividing the Spurs fan base over summer. Should the Spurs have played Mavs ball?
As for the speed issue, both Terry and Harris needs the ball to be effective (Terry less so), and if either of them gets it, it means the ball off of Nowitzki's hand. In the case vs. the Spurs, Parker can deal with one, while Ginobili can deal with the other, with Bowen on Howard, Elson/Finley/Oberto/Horry/whoever on Dirk, and Duncan on the last guy, readily helping out on drives by the Mavs.

[Amarelooms]

That's the touchy point that has been dividing the Spurs fan base over summer. Should the Spurs have played Mavs ball?
As for the speed issue, both Terry and Harris needs the ball to be effective (Terry less so), and if either of them gets it, it means the ball off of Nowitzki's hand. In the case vs. the Spurs, Parker can deal with one, while Ginobili can deal with the other, with Bowen on Howard, Elson/Finley/Oberto/Horry/whoever on Dirk, and Duncan on the last guy, readily helping out on drives by the Mavs.

Haha good one.....do you even know the Spurs players or basketball? Bowen and Finley are going to shoot over em....I'm sure Avery is shaking at the thought lol. In case you haven't figured it out, BOWEN SUCKS AT SHOOTING!!!

Secondly, Parker can't guard anyone did you watch Harris tear him up like Parker does to everyone else? We all know Bowen will guard Dirk 90% of the time cause if not your group of Elson/Finley/Oberto/Horry/whoever (including Duncan) will get lit the f up.

Face it homers the Mavs and Spurs are 2 great teams and if they meet again it will be another classic. Spurs surely can win the series but the edge at this time must go to the Mavs since they are younger/more athletic and the defending WCF. BTW in case you are all wondering AMARE LOOMS!!!!

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Haha good one.....do you even know the Spurs players or basketball? Bowen and Finley are going to shoot over em....I'm sure Avery is shaking at the thought lol. In case you haven't figured it out, BOWEN SUCKS AT SHOOTING!!!

Secondly, Parker can't guard anyone did you watch Harris tear him up like Parker does to everyone else? We all know Bowen will guard Dirk 90% of the time cause if not your group of Elson/Finley/Oberto/Horry/whoever (including Duncan) will get lit the f up.

Face it homers the Mavs and Spurs are 2 great teams and if they meet again it will be another classic. Spurs surely can win the series but the edge at this time must go to the Mavs since they are younger/more athletic and the defending WCF. BTW in case you are all wondering AMARE LOOMS!!!!
Say that to his 43 percent from the 2point and 42 from the 3point line.

[phyzik]

Haha good one.....do you even know the Spurs players or basketball? Bowen and Finley are going to shoot over em....I'm sure Avery is shaking at the thought lol. In case you haven't figured it out, BOWEN SUCKS AT SHOOTING!!!


Those are some big words against one of the top 3point shooters in the league last season, as a matter of fact, I think he was number 1 for the better part of the first half of last season.

I agree about Dirk though, I dont think he can be stopped... but he can have his points.. Its the others that we need to stop, just like we did to Amare in the Suns series in 2005. He got his points because we let him, we shut everyone else down with maybe the exception of Nash, but even that can be argued.

And I disagree that the Mavs have the advantage, as far as Im concerned its dead even until proven otherwise. As I said before I doubt Dirk has such a career year again.... If he does, win or lose, he should be the regular season MVP and if not he was robbed.

[phyzik]

Say that to his 43 percent from the 2point and 42 from the 3point line.

bah, beat me to it, but I typed alot more then you :elephant

[Amarelooms]

Say that to his 43 percent from the 2point and 42 from the 3point line.

FYI genius 43% from the field SUCKS. Also, his career stats are 41% from the field and 39% from 3's...granted he only takes corner 3's which are closer. In addition, he's a mind blowing 57% from the FT line. If you are counting on BRUCE F'N BOWEN to score or do ANYTHING OTHER THAN play D and HIT a couple 3's YOU HAVE ALL LOST YOUR MINDS!!! :elephant

[phyzik]

FYI genius 43% from the field SUCKS. Also, his career stats are 41% from the field and 39% from 3's...granted he only takes corner 3's which are closer. In addition, he's a mind blowing 57% from the FT line. If you are counting on BRUCE F'N BOWEN to score or do ANYTHING OTHER THAN play D and HIT a couple 3's YOU HAVE ALL LOST YOUR MINDS!!! :elephant

take a look at your whole teams 3pt line FG% and how many shots they took (its important to take both into account) vs Bowens 3pt FG% and how many shots he took. Show the stats here.... go ahead.

If you honestly think Bowens stats sucked last year then YOU have no idea what you are talking about and YOU have lost your mind. Lookin gat Bowens stats last year from beyond the arc (regardless of where he shoots it from) most people would think he played for the Suns.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

FYI genius 43% from the field SUCKS. Also, his career stats are 41% from the field and 39% from 3's...granted he only takes corner 3's which are closer. In addition, he's a mind blowing 57% from the FT line. If you are counting on BRUCE F'N BOWEN to score or do ANYTHING OTHER THAN play D and HIT a couple 3's YOU HAVE ALL LOST YOUR MINDS!!! :elephant
Career Stats:
Jason Terry:44% 2point, 38% 3point
Devin Harris:45% 2point, 32 3point
Dirk Nowitzki:46% 2point, 38% 3point
Josh Howard:46% 2point, 33% 3point

He beat out y'all at 3s while y'all beat him out at 2s.

[phyzik]

Career Stats:
Jason Terry:44% 2point, 38% 3point
Devin Harris:45% 2point, 32 3point
Dirk Nowitzki:46% 2point, 38% 3point
Josh Howard:46% 2point, 33% 3point

He beat out y'all at 3s while y'all beat him out at 2s.

lol, thanks #1EF, thats exactly the shit Im talking about.... now WHO doesnt know basketball?

but wait, let me guess, 41% sucks but 46% is TONS better..... right? :rolleyes

(EDIT..put 43%, meant to put 41%)

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

How is it that a difference of 5% tells you whether someone sucks or is your jumpshot threat?

[mavs>spurs2]

Career Stats:
Jason Terry:44% 2point, 38% 3point
Devin Harris:45% 2point, 32 3point
Dirk Nowitzki:46% 2point, 38% 3point
Josh Howard:46% 2point, 33% 3point

He beat out y'all at 3s while y'all beat him out at 2s.

Are you seriously trying to make the argument that Bowen is as good as those guys offensively? If not, then what is the point of posting stats? I surely hope that's not the point you are trying to make because if so you just lost all respect that you might have had.

[Amarelooms]

How is it that a difference of 5% tells you whether someone sucks or is your jumpshot threat?

Ummm 1st of all it's basic math and common sense...gald to see Spurs fans are such homers that they fail to see this.

1. Bruce Bowen does not CREATE his own shot...he gets OPEN LOOKS. If you even try to argue this you are a moron.

2. Secondly, way to round down on those percentages for the Mavs players homer. Math review...46.6% is not 46% it's closer to 47%

3. Lastly, 5% difference is HUGE!!!! If you don't think so then you my friend need to go back to high school.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

He isn't because he doesn't get as many touches.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Ummm 1st of all it's basic math and common sense...gald to see Spurs fans are such homers that they fail to see this.

1. Bruce Bowen does not CREATE his own shot...he gets OPEN LOOKS. If you even try to argue this you are a moron.

2. Secondly, way to round down on those percentages for the Mavs players homer. Math review...46.6% is not 46% it's closer to 47%

3. Lastly, 5% difference is HUGE!!!! If you don't think so then you my friend need to go back to high school.
So if you are saying that 5% is HUGE then you would be willing to admit that Josh Howard is no match for Bowen at 3s right?

[Amarelooms]

He isn't because he doesn't get as many touches.


Saying the only thing that separates Bruce Bowen and players like Dirk/Howard is that Bruce doesn't get as many shots MIGHT BE THE STUPIDEST THING EVER.

HAHAHA....this shit can't be for real can it? Are you Jessica Simpson....is it chicken or fish? Sure hope that you are acting like a moron on purpose.

[phyzik]

Are you seriously trying to make the argument that Bowen is as good as those guys offensively? If not, then what is the point of posting stats? I surely hope that's not the point you are trying to make because if so you just lost all respect that you might have had.

No, we are making the arguement that 43% from the field DOESNT suck.... as Amarelooms pointed out it does.... dont cover his assinine tracks for him.


3. Lastly, 5% difference is HUGE!!!! If you don't think so then you my friend need to go back to high school.

no, YOU need to go back to school.... the whole BASIS for percentages is based on how many repititions there where.... take a look at the ammount of shots taken beyond the arc.... I could easily say I have a 100% freethrow shooting ability if I only take 2 freethrows.... does that make me better then someone with a Ft% of 76% when they shoot over 200? no.

5% is only huge if they took the same ammount of shots.

to give you an idea what 5% would be... if they both took 200 3pt shots, 5% would mean they made 10 more 3pt shots then the other person out of 200.

[Amarelooms]

So if you are saying that 5% is HUGE then you would be willing to admit that Josh Howard is no match for Bowen at 3s right?

Sure I'll give you that Bruce Bowen can shoot corner 3's better than any Maverick...congrats Now tell him to work on his inept skills like...shooting shots other than corner 3's, dribbling, creating his own shot, passing, and I don't know something fundamental like making free throws?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Saying the only thing that separates Bruce Bowen and players like Dirk/Howard is that Bruce doesn't get as many shots MIGHT BE THE STUPIDEST THING EVER.

HAHAHA....this shit can't be for real can it? Are you Jessica Simpson....is it chicken or fish? Sure hope that you are acting like a moron on purpose.
Well if Bruce got as many shots as Dirk and Josh would it still be THE STUPIDEST THING EVER if he got around the same amount of points as them? If they both shoot 20 shots and make between 8-12 of them is it still THE STUPIDEST THING EVER just because you stupid head can't get the fact through that anyone can average just about the same amount of points if they got the same amount of touches. If Diop got like 20 touches down low, don't you think he'd get a good amount of points?

[phyzik]

Sure I'll give you that Bruce Bowen can shoot corner 3's better than any Maverick...congrats Now tell him to work on his inept skills like...shooting shots other than corner 3's, dribbling, creating his own shot, passing, and I don't know something fundamental like making free throws?

and I contend, since when has he been required to do ANYTHING other then defend? (which he obviously is at the top of that game) Why should he focus on being an offensive threat when he already is one without trying? All we expect bowen to do is defend, and if the shot is there, then take it.

[Amarelooms]

No, we are making the arguement that 43% from the field DOESNT suck.... as Amarelooms pointed out it does.... dont cover his assinine tracks for him.



no, YOU need to go back to school.... the whole BASIS for percentages is based on how many repititions there where.... take a look at the ammount of shots taken beyond the arc.... I could easily say I have a 100% freethrow shooting ability if I only take 2 freethrows.... does that make me better then someone with a Ft% of 76% when they shoot over 200? no.

5% is only huge if they took the same ammount of shots.

to give you an idea what 5% would be... if they both took 200 3pt shots, 5% would mean they made 10 more 3pt shots then the other person out of 200.

Are you claiming Bruce Bowen is taking the same type of shots Dirk is? Has Bruce Bowen EVER DRAWN A DOUBLE FREAKIN DOUBLE TEAM? I would be NO.

CONVERSATION OVER.....YOU ARE ALL OBVIOUSLY TRYING TO BE
SILLY (at least I sure hope so) Congrats :elephant

[Dalhoop]

Bowen is a good shooter from the corner three, almost automatic, but I am certain that the Mavs would much rather have Bowen taking the shots then any of the big three.

As for Harris having the ball .... That is what PG's do. You should know this, his game is the same as Parkers only three years ago. Did Parker get the ball to the people that counted? Yes, you know why? Because its what PG's do.


Should the Spurs have played Mavs ball?

They couldn't have done otherwise, the centers were not quick enough to recover on Defense


As for the speed issue, both Terry and Harris needs the ball to be effective (Terry less so), and if either of them gets it, it means the ball off of Nowitzki's hand.

A PG needing the ball to be effective? Name one that doesn't. When Parker has the ball, is he taking it out of Duncans hands? Or is it just the way things are. You see what Harris does is use blinding speed to get to the rim, and as the defense collapses, he dumps it off to his All-Star PF, or kicks it out to shooter .... Does that sound familiar ... It should, its exactly what the Spurs do with Parker and Duncan, you should know that it works rather well.


Parker can deal with one, while Ginobili can deal with the other

Did this work last year? Do you think that the Mavs will move away from what worked last time, or do you think its more likely that they keep doing what works?


Bowen on Howard, Elson/Finley/Oberto/Horry/whoever on Dirk,

None of these guys did very good last year either (Oberto didn't even see the floor), that's why Bowen got the job. You see. That is the first domino to fall. If none of those guys can slow Dirk, Bowen has to be moved to him (domino #1), That leave no-one to guard Howard, if Terry and Harris are on the floor, The Spurs are forced to bring in a "Small" to guard Howard (The center can't handle him) (Domino #2) As you can't play 6 men, the center has to come out (He has no-one to guard), because Duncan isn't going to sit (Domino #3). And what happens?

Spurs go small with Parker, Manu, Finley, Bowen and Duncan.

As Finley and Horry couldn't guard him last year, I guess your hopes rest on Oberto and Elson being able to do it and staying out of foul trouble.

To be honest, the chances don't look good. The Spurs are much better off going Zone, at least Zone works.

[mavs>spurs2]

Well if Bruce got as many shots as Dirk and Josh would it still be THE STUPIDEST THING EVER if he got around the same amount of points as them? If they both shoot 20 shots and make between 8-12 of them is it still THE STUPIDEST THING EVER just because you stupid head can't get the fact through that anyone can average just about the same amount of points if they got the same amount of touches. If Diop got like 20 touches down low, don't you think he'd get a good amount of points?

What is your point? Why would they give it to Diop when they have plenty of players who are better scorers than him? Same reason they don't give it to Bowen, he's terrible offensively. Other than spotting up in the corner, he has no offensive skills.

[phyzik]

Are you claiming Bruce Bowen is taking the same type of shots Dirk is? Has Bruce Bowen EVER DRAWN A DOUBLE FREAKIN DOUBLE TEAM? I would be NO.

CONVERSATION OVER.....YOU ARE ALL OBVIOUSLY TRYING TO BE
SILLY (at least I sure hope so) Congrats :elephant

dont be stupid, you know I never claimed that... you are just trying to avoid your fuckup in claiming Bruce is some mediocre player on offense... dont play dumb, I know your not. I never mentioned Dirk, or any other maverick by name for that matter. Besides that, EVERY team knows Bowen is going to camp the corner... why NOT send someone at him and force him to take those "Dirk" shots? Until they do, you cant claim that Bruce is NOT an offensive contributor.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Sure I'll give you that Bruce Bowen can shoot corner 3's better than any Maverick...congrats Now tell him to work on his inept skills like...shooting shots other than corner 3's, dribbling, creating his own shot, passing, and I don't know something fundamental like making free throws?
While I'm at it, I'll be sure to tell Dampier, Diop, Buckner, Johnson, George, and Josh.

[Amarelooms]

Well if Bruce got as many shots as Dirk and Josh would it still be THE STUPIDEST THING EVER if he got around the same amount of points as them? If they both shoot 20 shots and make between 8-12 of them is it still THE STUPIDEST THING EVER just because you stupid head can't get the fact through that anyone can average just about the same amount of points if they got the same amount of touches. If Diop got like 20 touches down low, don't you think he'd get a good amount of points?

HAHA...HAHAHAHA.....HAHAHAHAHA :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol


Ok you win I can't take it....SPURS RULE...MAVS SUCK.


BRUCE BOWEN is BETTER THAN ALL THE MAVS inclduing DIRK, Terry, Howard, Stackhouse, etc. Bruce Bowen is a future HOF.
In fact, BOWEN >>>>> JORDAN. Kobe wishes he had the talent Bruce does...I mean Bruce has a higher 3% percentage so Bowen is better than him right?

GET THE F OUTTA HERE WITH YOUR RETARD LOGIC LOL!!!

[mavs>spurs2]

dont be stupid, you know I never claimed that... you are just trying to avoid your fuckup in claiming Bruce is some mediocre player on offense... dont play dumb, I know your not. I never mentioned Dirk, or any other maverick for that matter. Besides that, EVERY team knows Bowen is going to camp the corner... why NOT send someone at him and force him to take those "Dirk" shots? Until they do, you cant claim that Bruce is NOT an offensive contributor.

You can never win an argument here at Spurstalk. You say something that's common knowledge, such as "Bruce Bowen is not an offensive threat," and they twist things around and back peddal while getting no where. Bowen is good at what he does, defense, but don't ever try to act like he's this great scorer. Aside from spotting up in the corner, he can't dribble, create his own shot, shoot free throws, or shoot from anywhere outside of the deep corner. HE IS NOT A FREAKING OFFENSIVE THREAT.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

dont be stupid, you know I never claimed that... you are just trying to avoid your fuckup in claiming Bruce is some mediocre player on offense... dont play dumb, I know your not. I never mentioned Dirk, or any other maverick by name for that matter. Besides that, EVERY team knows Bowen is going to camp the corner... why NOT send someone at him and force him to take those "Dirk" shots? Until they do, you cant claim that Bruce is NOT an offensive contributor.
And that is the conversation-ender. :smokin

[mavs>spurs2]

While I'm at it, I'll be sure to tell Dampier, Diop, Buckner, Johnson, George, and Josh.

None of whom besides Diop are as bad as Bowen from the line. Your argument is useless.

[Amarelooms]

What is your point? Why would they give it to Diop when they have plenty of players who are better scorers than him? Same reason they don't give it to Bowen, he's terrible offensively. Other than spotting up in the corner, he has no offensive skills.


Wow someone else who knows basketball. Don't try to argue with them it's pointless.....

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

HAHA...HAHAHAHA.....HAHAHAHAHA :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol


Ok you win I can't take it....SPURS RULE...MAVS SUCK.


BRUCE BOWEN is BETTER THAN ALL THE MAVS inclduing DIRK, Terry, Howard, Stackhouse, etc. Bruce Bowen is a future HOF.
In fact, BOWEN >>>>> JORDAN. Kobe wishes he had the talent Bruce does...I mean Bruce has a higher 3% percentage so Bowen is better than him right?

GET THE F OUTTA HERE WITH YOUR RETARD LOGIC LOL!!!
You are such a hypocrite. You were first saying that 5% is a HUGE matter. Now you are saying Bowen is better than Kobe because he has 3% on him. What point are you trying to make? Bowen is a great 3-point threat. That is what makes him a theat on offense. I don't know what you are trying to pull.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

None of whom besides Diop are as bad as Bowen from the line. Your argument is useless.
Because Bowen isn't as much in traffic as those guys, so we don't have to worry about him at the line as much as those guys. YOUR argument is useless.

[phyzik]

You can never win an argument here at Spurstalk. You say something that's common knowledge, such as "Bruce Bowen is not an offensive threat," and they twist things around and back peddal while getting no where. Bowen is good at what he does, defense, but don't ever try to act like he's this great scorer. Aside from spotting up in the corner, he can't dribble, create his own shot, shoot free throws, or shoot from anywhere outside of the deep corner. HE IS NOT A FREAKING OFFENSIVE THREAT.

Let me enlighten you to what sparked this debate.....


FYI genius 43% from the field SUCKS.

We never WHERE talking about FT%, running the court, turnovers, ect. we where talking about FG%. Leave it to a Mavs fan to try and win an arguement by changing what they argued against in the first place.... Look. I got NO problem with the Mavs, except perhaps the owner, but you guys need to quit your spin act.

[mavs>spurs2]

Because Bowen isn't as much in traffic as those guys, so we don't have to worry about him at the line as much as those guys. YOUR argument is useless.

WTF? How many times they get to the line is irrelevant to how good of free throw shooters they are. The guys you say need to work on free throws all shoot better from the line than Bowen, YOUR ARGUMENT is useless.

[Amarelooms]

You are such a hypocrite. You were first saying that 5% is a HUGE matter. Now you are saying Bowen is better than Kobe because he has 3% on him. What point are you trying to make? Bowen is a great 3-point threat. That is what makes him a theat on offense. I don't know what you are trying to pull.

Not trying to pull anything....going back to my original point which is a fact even if you don't like it. One poster said the Mavs can't put Terry on Bowen cause he will "shoot over him". To which I responded that Bowen can shoot all he wants...the Mavs WANT HIM TO SHOOT.

Why you ask with your simpleton mind? Because Bruce Bowen is a role player and offensively all he can do is shoot corner 3's when he is WIDE OPEN. Other than that HE SUCKS ASS IN EVERY ASPECT OF THE OFFENSIVE GAME. Sad fact I know...but the truth hurts sometimes.

[phyzik]

I STILL dont get how this went from "FYI genius 43% from the field SUCKS." to free throws....

[mavs>spurs2]

Let me enlighten you to what sparked this debate.....



We never WHERE talking about FT%, running the court, turnovers, ect. we where talking about FG%. Leave it to a Mavs fan to try and win an arguement by changing what they argued against in the first place.... Look. I got NO problem with the Mavs, except perhaps the owner, but you guys need to quit your spin act.

What the hell? Your the one with the spin act. You idiots think that just because Bowen has a slightly lower field goal % than say Howard or JET, that he is as much as an offensive threat? That's complete bullshit and you know it, otherwise you're just plain stupid.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

WTF? How many times they get to the line is irrelevant to how good of free throw shooters they are. The guys you say need to work on free throws all shoot better from the line than Bowen, YOUR ARGUMENT is useless.
Although it is irrelevant, why should we worry so much about Bowen's FT% if he's barely gonna be there anyway? Although it is not a fact, you can agree with me that Bowen won't be at the line as much as those guys. At the most he'll be at the line for at least 2 attempts per game.

[mavs>spurs2]

Not trying to pull anything....going back to my original point which is a fact even if you don't like it. One poster said the Mavs can't put Terry on Bowen cause he will "shoot over him". To which I responded that Bowen can shoot all he wants...the Mavs WANT HIM TO SHOOT.

Why you ask with your simpleton mind? Because Bruce Bowen is a role player and offensively all he can do is shoot corner 3's when he is WIDE OPEN. Other than that HE SUCKS ASS IN EVERY ASPECT OF THE OFFENSIVE GAME. Sad fact I know...but the truth hurts sometimes.

Yes, back to the original point. Having both Terry and Devin Harris start against the spurs works because either one can guard Bowen. Who cares about the height disadvantage? If the spurs want to run isolations for Bruce Bowen then they can be my guest......

[mavs>spurs2]

Although it is irrelevant, why should we worry so much about Bowen's FT% if he's barely gonna be there anyway? Although it is not a fact, you can agree with me that Bowen won't be at the line as much as those guys. At the most he'll be at the line for at least 2 attempts per game.

You're right, you don't have to worry about that. But you are a hypocrite if you criticize those guys for their free throw shooting while at the same time defending Bruce Bowen.

[phyzik]

Not trying to pull anything....going back to my original point which is a fact even if you don't like it. One poster said the Mavs can't put Terry on Bowen cause he will "shoot over him". To which I responded that Bowen can shoot all he wants...the Mavs WANT HIM TO SHOOT.

Why you ask with your simpleton mind? Because Bruce Bowen is a role player and offensively all he can do is shoot corner 3's when he is WIDE OPEN. Other than that HE SUCKS ASS IN EVERY ASPECT OF THE OFFENSIVE GAME. Sad fact I know...but the truth hurts sometimes.



FYI genius 43% from the field SUCKS. Also, his career stats are 41% from the field and 39% from 3's...granted he only takes corner 3's which are closer. In addition, he's a mind blowing 57% from the FT line. If you are counting on BRUCE F'N BOWEN to score or do ANYTHING OTHER THAN play D and HIT a couple 3's YOU HAVE ALL LOST YOUR MINDS!!!


Haha good one.....do you even know the Spurs players or basketball? Bowen and Finley are going to shoot over em....I'm sure Avery is shaking at the thought lol. In case you haven't figured it out, BOWEN SUCKS AT SHOOTING!!!

WHERE in this conversation did it start out that you said Bowen sucks at every other aspect.... WE NEVER ARGUED THAT! We where just argueing your point that Bowen cant shoot from over an undersized Terry and Harris. Again, quit playing like a polotician that said something stupid and try to back out of it.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Not trying to pull anything....going back to my original point which is a fact even if you don't like it. One poster said the Mavs can't put Terry on Bowen cause he will "shoot over him". To which I responded that Bowen can shoot all he wants...the Mavs WANT HIM TO SHOOT.

Why you ask with your simpleton mind? Because Bruce Bowen is a role player and offensively all he can do is shoot corner 3's when he is WIDE OPEN. Other than that HE SUCKS ASS IN EVERY ASPECT OF THE OFFENSIVE GAME. Sad fact I know...but the truth hurts sometimes.
I'm not saying that Bowen is good at all aspects of offense, but if you leave Bowen at the 3point line WATCH OUT! And as you said before, Bowen can't do much on offense, and that's why he is left open for 3s. Some defenders don't think he is able to make it because of all the other stats he has, but that is one of the best 3points shooters out there. All I'm saying is when we are playing against each other, DO NOT LEAVE HIM OPEN. Because he will hit them.

[mavs>spurs2]

We where just argueing your point that Bowen can shoot from over an undersized Terry and Harris.

Who cares? Let him, as long as he's not spotting up from the corner he won't make the shot.

[Amarelooms]

WHERE in this conversation did it start out that you said Bowen sucks at every other aspect.... WE NEVER ARGUED THAT! We where just argueing your point that Bowen cant shoot from over an undersized Terry and Harris.

FYI Bowen is not going to shoot over anyone....not even a midget. For the last time he only takes open shots.

[mavs>spurs2]

All I'm saying is when we are playing against each other, DO NOT LEAVE HIM OPEN. Because he will hit them.

WRONG AGAIN!! This only applies to wide open shots in the corner. He can't make them from the top of the key or anywhere else! No one is scared to death over here because of Bruce Bowen's offensive capabilities. He is the least of the Mavericks worries.

[phyzik]

Who cares? Let him, as long as he's not spotting up from the corner he won't make the shot.

As far as Im concerned your right, but we where arguing the FACTS with Amarelooms that 43% from the field sucks. Not about every aspect of Bowens game which Amarelooms is trying to claim this conversation was all about in the first place.

[phyzik]

WRONG AGAIN!! This only applies to wide open shots in the corner. He can't make them from the top of the key or anywhere else! No one is scared to death over here because of Bruce Bowen's offensive capabilities. He is the least of the Mavericks worries.

Actually, Bowen, as a FACT, can make it from anywhere else from beyond the arc, I see him do it quite often.... he just prefers the corners for some reason (Im guessing because of the way the Spurs offense rotates) it leaves him wide open because teams dont beleive he is part of the offensive rotation... Which they are right... but when the rotation doesnt create.... he is there as an option.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

You're right, you don't have to worry about that. But you are a hypocrite if you criticize those guys for their free throw shooting while at the same time defending Bruce Bowen.
If it is being a hypocrite saying that we shouldn't worry that a bad free throw shooting Bowen won't be at the line as much compared to borderline free throw shooting players of the Mavs that will be there plenty of more times than him, then a hypocrite I shall be. :)

[mavs>spurs2]

As far as Im concerned your right, but we where arguing the FACTS with Amarelooms that 43% from the field sucks. Not about every aspect of Bowens game which Amarelooms is trying to claim this conversation was all about in the first place.

43% isn't great, but it really depends on what kind and how many shots you are taking. Jason Terry is always going to be a better shooter than shaq, even though shaq will always have the higher FG%.

[Amarelooms]

As far as Im concerned your right, but we where arguing the FACTS with Amarelooms that 43% from the field sucks. Not about every aspect of Bowens game which Amarelooms is trying to claim this conversation was all about in the first place.

That was not the initial arguement, I suggest you go back and look at my first post. Also, I stand behind my point that Bowen's career average of 41% SUCKS AND IS HORRIBLE given the fact that he is a role player does not create or take tough shots.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

WRONG AGAIN!! This only applies to wide open shots in the corner. He can't make them from the top of the key or anywhere else! No one is scared to death over here because of Bruce Bowen's offensive capabilities. He is the least of the Mavericks worries.
No one has ever seen him shoot from other than the corner, so who knows...

[mavs>spurs2]

That was not the initial arguement, I suggest you go back and look at my first post. Also, I stand behind my point that Bowen's career average of 41% SUCKS AND IS HORRIBLE given the fact that he is a role player does not create or take tough shots.

Agreed.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

43% isn't great, but it really depends on what kind and how many shots you are taking. Jason Terry is always going to be a better shooter than shaq, even though shaq will always have the higher FG%.
Good point.

[mavs>spurs2]

Actually, Bowen, as a FACT, can make it from anywhere else from beyond the arc, I see him do it quite often.


No one has ever seen him shoot from other than the corner, so who knows...

You two just totally contradicted eachother.....Lol one of you obviously doesn't know anything about Bowen or the spurs.

[phyzik]

That was not the initial arguement, I suggest you go back and look at my first post. Also, I stand behind my point that Bowen's career average of 41% SUCKS AND IS HORRIBLE given the fact that he is a role player does not create or take tough shots.

Again, your not looking at the NUMBER of shots, I wouldnt be suprised if he took at least 25% more shots then any Mav from beyond the arc.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

You two just totally contradicted eachother.....Lol one of you obviously doesn't know anything about Bowen or the spurs.
That was a blooper. :lol Unless phyzik has seen him play more than me. I got into basketball in the 03 season.

[phyzik]

You two just totally contradicted eachother.....Lol one of you obviously doesn't know anything about Bowen or the spurs.

I cant speak for Elliotfan but I have seen him do it plenty of times..... he does it a few times during the season but most often he does it during practice.

[mavs>spurs2]

I cant speak for Elliotfan but I have seen him do it plenty of times..... he does it a few times during the season but most often he does it during practice.

You said you've seen him do it quite often, you must go to alot of spur practices. What relationship do you have with the spurs organization?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

What if HE'S Bruce Bowen??????

[mavs>spurs2]

What if HE'S Bruce Bowen??????

No but I think I caught him in a little white lie.

[phyzik]

What if HE'S Bruce Bowen??????

Shhh.... :fro

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

If we were all NBA players in a game, we'd all sooooo get ejected because of that new rule.

[phyzik]

No but I think I caught him in a little white lie.


what white lie? Are you talking about the practices? Its pretty well known around here he can shoot from other spots from beyond the arc.... In fact Im looking for the interview in which several Spurs say he can do it... just give me a few minutes.

He also does it in Warmup too.... maybe you should watch.

[phyzik]

If we were all NBA players in a game, we'd all sooooo get ejected because of that new rule.


lol, true.

nothing but some spirited message board competition though..... We got home court advantage :lol

[mavs>spurs2]

what white lie? Are you talking about the practices? Its pretty well known around here he can shoot from other spots from beyond the arc.... In fact Im looking for the interview in which several Spurs say he can do it... just give me a few minutes.

He also does it in Warmup too.... maybe you should watch.

You said you've seen him do it quite a few times, and that he mainly does it during practice. I was just asking an honest question, How are you so priviledged to get to go to spur practices?

[phyzik]

I cant find the interview right now but you can probably find it on http://www.brucebowen.com/home.html . If you still havnt found it by tomorrow I will look it up, its already late and I have to get to bed for an EARLY work day :depressed

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

God damn, we need the season to start.

[phyzik]

You said you've seen him do it quite a few times, and that he mainly does it during practice. I was just asking an honest question, How are you so priviledged to get to go to spur practices?


honestly, when I said practice I meant warmup (seriously)... but there is an interview with him and several other Spurs from last season (after he lead the league in 3pt% for half the season) about how he can shoot from other spots... he just prefers the corner.

[mavs>spurs2]

God damn, we need the season to start.

Amen.

[phyzik]

Amen.


At least we can agree on something :lol

ok, I really need to get to bed... just gonna check a few other posts (damn work :madrun )

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I now declare this Mavs-Spurs fan meeting adjourned! Hopefully y'all agree.

[ambchang]

Haha good one.....do you even know the Spurs players or basketball? Bowen and Finley are going to shoot over em....I'm sure Avery is shaking at the thought lol. In case you haven't figured it out, BOWEN SUCKS AT SHOOTING!!!

Secondly, Parker can't guard anyone did you watch Harris tear him up like Parker does to everyone else? We all know Bowen will guard Dirk 90% of the time cause if not your group of Elson/Finley/Oberto/Horry/whoever (including Duncan) will get lit the f up.

Face it homers the Mavs and Spurs are 2 great teams and if they meet again it will be another classic. Spurs surely can win the series but the edge at this time must go to the Mavs since they are younger/more athletic and the defending WCF. BTW in case you are all wondering AMARE LOOMS!!!!

Sigh, another Mav fans who claim to know all in the basketball universe, sometimes I wonder why I even would discuss basketball topics with basketball encyclopaedias.

In the 5 years with the Spurs, Bowen shot 37.8%, 44.1%, 36.3%, 40.3% and 42.4% from 3pt land, I wouldn’t particularly called those “suck at shooting”, oh, sorry, I mean “SUCKS AT SHOOTING!!!”.

Parker can’t guard anyone? He got 2 All-defensive team votes last year. That is one less than the Mavs’ defensive ace Josh Howard. And if he gets burned on D just like he will burn everyone else on O, I am fine with it, it balances out.

Bowen on Dirk last year was out of necessity. Nobody thought Haslem can shut Dirk down either, but guess what? He did! Elson is long, quick and atheletic, and could be a decent defensive option on Dirk, we will wait and see whether there is anything left on Eric William’s tank.

I agree that it’s going to be a tough series, no doubt, and the edge definitely is on the Mavs right now, I am just arguing how the Mavs have improved so much more than the Spurs this off season.

[ambchang]

Sure I'll give you that Bruce Bowen can shoot corner 3's better than any Maverick...congrats Now tell him to work on his inept skills like...shooting shots other than corner 3's, dribbling, creating his own shot, passing, and I don't know something fundamental like making free throws?

Man, I really don't know about basketball. Could you please explain to me how shooting corner 3's is not part of shooting, and dribbling, creating his own shot and passing is?
Also, why would his FT be a huge problem if we are talking about him shooting over Harris/Terry for jumpshots?

[z0sa]

You said you've seen him do it quite a few times, and that he mainly does it during practice.

I've seen Bowen makes about 25% of his three's from the other areas of the court, he just prefer the corners -- who knows why. But hes a threat from all over.

[ambchang]

Bowen is a good shooter from the corner three, almost automatic, but I am certain that the Mavs would much rather have Bowen taking the shots then any of the big three.

This is true, but it still doesn’t change the fact that Harris or Terry will be a defensive liability if both are on the court at the same time.


As for Harris having the ball .... That is what PG's do. You should know this, his game is the same as Parkers only three years ago. Did Parker get the ball to the people that counted? Yes, you know why? Because its what PG's do.

That’s why Parker was sitting on the bench 3 years ago. He is now much of effective in moving w/o the ball, and in distributing the ball to the right people (no perfect, just better). I don’t see Harris having THAT dramatic an improvement over one year.


They couldn't have done otherwise, the centers were not quick enough to recover on Defense

A PG needing the ball to be effective? Name one that doesn't. When Parker has the ball, is he taking it out of Duncans hands? Or is it just the way things are. You see what Harris does is use blinding speed to get to the rim, and as the defense collapses, he dumps it off to his All-Star PF, or kicks it out to shooter .... Does that sound familiar ... It should, its exactly what the Spurs do with Parker and Duncan, you should know that it works rather well.

Sorry, it was poorly explained in my last post. What I meant is that with Harris’ passing and distributing abilities right now, he can only be effective with the ball in his hands through scoring. My argument is that he is not as effective in passing the ball as he is scoring it.


Did this work last year? Do you think that the Mavs will move away from what worked last time, or do you think its more likely that they keep doing what works?

None of these guys did very good last year either (Oberto didn't even see the floor), that's why Bowen got the job. You see. That is the first domino to fall. If none of those guys can slow Dirk, Bowen has to be moved to him (domino #1), That leave no-one to guard Howard, if Terry and Harris are on the floor, The Spurs are forced to bring in a "Small" to guard Howard (The center can't handle him) (Domino #2) As you can't play 6 men, the center has to come out (He has no-one to guard), because Duncan isn't going to sit (Domino #3). And what happens?

Spurs go small with Parker, Manu, Finley, Bowen and Duncan.

As Finley and Horry couldn't guard him last year, I guess your hopes rest on Oberto and Elson being able to do it and staying out of foul trouble.

To be honest, the chances don't look good. The Spurs are much better off going Zone, at least Zone works.

My hopes are actually on Eric Williams. Raptors don’t play much defense, and as a result, have little use for a defensive SF like Williams. I hope at his age (is it 34?) that he still has some quickness left in him.

I think Elson has the same body type to guard someone like Dirk. Long, quick and athletic. Whether he could actually do it remains to be seen.

[ambchang]

You can never win an argument here at Spurstalk. You say something that's common knowledge, such as "Bruce Bowen is not an offensive threat," and they twist things around and back peddal while getting no where. Bowen is good at what he does, defense, but don't ever try to act like he's this great scorer. Aside from spotting up in the corner, he can't dribble, create his own shot, shoot free throws, or shoot from anywhere outside of the deep corner. HE IS NOT A FREAKING OFFENSIVE THREAT.
He never said "Bruce Bowen is not an offensive threat,", he said "BOWEN SUCKS AT SHOOTING!!!". Two completely different things.

[Dalhoop]

This is true, but it still doesn’t change the fact that Harris or Terry will be a defensive liability if both are on the court at the same time.

This is a liability that the Mavs can live with, as we did in the playoffs. Our belief is that the other team will have to adjust to the speed to hoop, before we have to adjust to having a defender that is two inches too small.

In short, the Mavs will live with players shooting over Terry/Harris (Jump shot) for as long as the other team is happy with Terry/Harris exploiting their speed to get to the rim and getting a lay-up.


Sorry, it was poorly explained in my last post. What I meant is that with Harris’ passing and distributing abilities right now, he can only be effective with the ball in his hands through scoring. My argument is that he is not as effective in passing the ball as he is scoring it.

Actually its exactly the opposite. Harris has to develop a shot (Like most PG's do) this is why he penetrates when he has the ball ... Its an easier shot. Remember he almost led the team in assist last year and that was as a back-up. I don't see him improving to All-Star level, but improving from where he is right now, would make him a pretty good player.


My hopes are actually on Eric Williams. Raptors don’t play much defense, and as a result, have little use for a defensive SF like Williams. I hope at his age (is it 34?) that he still has some quickness left in him.

I understand that he is on the team, I was not aware that the Spurs planned on using him as anything other then trade-bait else I would have included him.


I think Elson has the same body type to guard someone like Dirk. Long, quick and athletic. Whether he could actually do it remains to be seen.

That is the key .. and staying out of foul trouble. He has shown quickness in Europe, but quickness down the floor and defensive quickness are two different things ... We will see.

[ambchang]

This is a liability that the Mavs can live with, as we did in the playoffs. Our belief is that the other team will have to adjust to the speed to hoop, before we have to adjust to having a defender that is two inches too small.

In short, the Mavs will live with players shooting over Terry/Harris (Jump shot) for as long as the other team is happy with Terry/Harris exploiting their speed to get to the rim and getting a lay-up.

The Heat played that well by leaving Harris open and daring him to shoot jumpers. The Spurs should have done that, but didn’t. This year, unless Harris improves his jumpers immensely, all the teams are going to pull this on him.


Actually its exactly the opposite. Harris has to develop a shot (Like most PG's do) this is why he penetrates when he has the ball ... Its an easier shot. Remember he almost led the team in assist last year and that was as a back-up. I don't see him improving to All-Star level, but improving from where he is right now, would make him a pretty good player.

He is already a pretty good player, no arguments here. I just believe that he is a better finisher than passer. Again, if you left him wide open for jumpers, and can’t penetrate, his effectiveness on offense would be severely limited.


I understand that he is on the team, I was not aware that the Spurs planned on using him as anything other then trade-bait else I would have included him.

That is the key .. and staying out of foul trouble. He has shown quickness in Europe, but quickness down the floor and defensive quickness are two different things ... We will see.

As for Williams, I am a fan of his, and originally thought that the Rasho trade was to get Williams, and not Bonner. I don’t see how Bonner can fit in with the Spurs with his extremely slow lateral quickness and limited defensive skills, but I may have been wrong on that.

Elson, as long as he makes Dirk works hard for his shots, and can guard him without a double team, that is all the Spurs ask.

BTW, another problem with Terry and Harris on the floor; who is going to double Duncan? It used to be the guy guarding Bowen, but if you have Finley, Parker and Ginobili, along with Bowen and Duncan on the floor, you cannot leave any of the other guys opened to double Duncan, you also do not send a Terry/Harris (who I assume would be guarding Bowen) to double Duncan, because that is a small double, and Duncan can easily pass or shoot over that.

[z0sa]

I hope against the Mavericks we never have Finley, Ginobili, Parker and Bowen on the floor all at once - at least, never again.

[Dalhoop]

Playing that Line-up is what the Mavs want, it means that the Mavs are dictating the flow of the game.

As for doubling Duncan, we don't do that. We have a lot of big bodies that have fouls to give. Duncan goes off on the Mavs because we don't double. We pick our poison and stay home on the other players.

Now in some cases the man guarding Bowen (Terry or Harris, Howard is he is in foul trouble) would double down. When a guard doubles down, it is not to block the shot, its to use the quick hands to go for the steal or knock to ball out of bounds. Big's go for blocks, small's go for steals.

[ambchang]

Playing that Line-up is what the Mavs want, it means that the Mavs are dictating the flow of the game.

As for doubling Duncan, we don't do that. We have a lot of big bodies that have fouls to give. Duncan goes off on the Mavs because we don't double. We pick our poison and stay home on the other players.

Now in some cases the man guarding Bowen (Terry or Harris, Howard is he is in foul trouble) would double down. When a guard doubles down, it is not to block the shot, its to use the quick hands to go for the steal or knock to ball out of bounds. Big's go for blocks, small's go for steals.

Strictly using fouls on Duncan is pretty drastic measures. As poor a FT shooter as Duncan is, he is still way over 48% (his FG%), which means that he has a better chance on the line than from the field (unless you foul him on layups and dunks, etc ...)

By holding the ball up top, the double can't steal the ball, and Duncan, easily seeing over the double team, can pass the ball to any one of his shooters on the perimeter. And most of the Spurs perimeter players can shoot.

[z0sa]

Playing that Line-up is what the Mavs want, it means that the Mavs are dictating the flow of the game.

If you mean us playing two bigs and not playing small, i think you're wrong. Thats how the Spurs have always won, imo - WE dictated the pace by going through Tim offensively, then using Tim and another big to make penetrators think twice. I think if we had done that, we would have won. Putting some 6'7-8 on Dirk is definitely not the answer.

[Dalhoop]

Strictly using fouls on Duncan is pretty drastic measures. As poor a FT shooter as Duncan is, he is still way over 48% (his FG%), which means that he has a better chance on the line than from the field (unless you foul him on layups and dunks, etc ...)

Drastic and "what it takes to win" are very close to the same thing. You did watch the play-offs last year didn't you, It is what we do.


By holding the ball up top, the double can't steal the ball, and Duncan, easily seeing over the double team, can pass the ball to any one of his shooters on the perimeter. And most of the Spurs perimeter players can shoot.

By holding the ball, even a guard can jump to reach it. What the double does is make him make the decision quickly, right or wrong and get the ball out of his hand ... but this is a mute point as the Mavs like to play his straight up with Diop/Dampier/Mbenga fouling him (again, you did watch the games didn't you?) One of the fouls out in the first half and the other by the end of the game .... don't laugh, it worked.


If you mean us playing two bigs and not playing small, i think you're wrong. Thats how the Spurs have always won, imo - WE dictated the pace by going through Tim offensively, then using Tim and another big to make penetrators think twice. I think if we had done that, we would have won. Putting some 6'7-8 on Dirk is definitely not the answer.

The Spurs do need to keep two bigs on the floor, not just for the defense, but for the foul protection for Duncan. The big question is whether they can keep their center on the floor when the Mavs have Terry and Harris on the floor. Luckily we will get a clue to that answer very early on in the season. I know that it will be just one game, but the match-up of ... Well, everyone, on Dirk and whether they can guard him without putting Bowen on him will be the thing to watch, If not, the Spurs will have to either pull a trade to find someone, or start working on a zone if they intend to beat the Mavs.

[td4mvp21]

Dalhoop, you have very good basketball intellect. You're a good poster. :tu

[z0sa]

By holding the ball, even a guard can jump to reach it. What the double does is make him make the decision quickly, right or wrong and get the ball out of his hand ... but this is a mute point as the Mavs like to play his straight up with Diop/Dampier/Mbenga fouling him (again, you did watch the games didn't you?) One of the fouls out in the first half and the other by the end of the game .... don't laugh, it worked.

The problem with letting an MVP-caliber player go off on you is the very fact - when you're trying to get stops down the stretch, you can't. Especially against someone like Tim, who uninjured and allowed to have his way, will hang 40/20/6 on you.

The way I see w/ Harris and Terry on the floor, you just stay tall and let Harris shoot. You cant improve your jumpshot so substantially over just one summer that you can knock down every shot you need to in a high stakes play off game - so we keep parker on Harris, let Bowen or Manu cover Terry, and the same with Howard. Then if they put in another guard, you just switch off by whos doing the best. Bowen can shut down any guard. Besides, I'm not worried so much about Harris if we go tall, cause he'll think twice about entering the paint if we've got two bigs. The person who scares me is Terry.

[Obstructed_View]

Playing that Line-up is what the Mavs want, it means that the Mavs are dictating the flow of the game.

As for doubling Duncan, we don't do that. We have a lot of big bodies that have fouls to give. Duncan goes off on the Mavs because we don't double. We pick our poison and stay home on the other players.
Substitute the word "Spurs" for "Mavs" and change the word "Duncan" to "Stoudamire" and you have the strategy for winning the WC the previous year. Too bad the Spurs let themselves fall right into their own trap less than a year later.

[Dalhoop]

The problem with letting an MVP-caliber player go off on you is the very fact - when you're trying to get stops down the stretch, you can't. Especially against someone like Tim, who uninjured and allowed to have his way, will hang 40/20/6 on you.

We did last year. We did it against Grizzlies (Gasol), we did it to the Spurs (Duncan, I am not sure of his numbers, but it seemed like they were 40-20 :) ), we did it to the Suns (Nash) and we did it to the Heat (They played a Zone .. You should learn from this)

We don't care of someone gets fifty in a loss, as long as its a loss. Remember in the playoffs last year when Parker, Manu and Duncan all went for 30+ in the same game because we refused to double? Do you remember the score? It was a Mavs win.

If your offense relies too much on the double, the Mavs WILL NOT DO IT. The Mavs believe, right or wrong, that it is better to get the other team out of their game, then to allow them to play their game. If this means letting a MVP get 50, then that's what it means.

Whether you play off of Harris or up on him doesn't matter all that much, with screens and picks. Quick PG's get to the rim ... Its what they do. I know that you think that someone can keep up with them, but your fooling yourself. Parker may be fast going forward, but is he that fast back peddling? Nobody is.

Go ahead and watch any game that has a "quick" PG playing and you will see that when he wants to get to the rim ... He does, it is that simple. The only question is whether the Spurs will be able to cover the drive and recover to their man fast enough.

How you cover Harris will not determine the winner in the Mavs / Spurs games, neither will the way the Mavs cover Duncan ... It will all come down to whoever is covering Dirk. How they are doing and their foul situation will effect the entire Spurs line-up and how they play as a team

[ambchang]

Drastic and "what it takes to win" are very close to the same thing. You did watch the play-offs last year didn't you, It is what we do.


By holding the ball, even a guard can jump to reach it. What the double does is make him make the decision quickly, right or wrong and get the ball out of his hand ... but this is a mute point as the Mavs like to play his straight up with Diop/Dampier/Mbenga fouling him (again, you did watch the games didn't you?) One of the fouls out in the first half and the other by the end of the game .... don't laugh, it worked.

I agree that it worked last year, barely, but that is back to the original point, why would anybody say that the Mavs have improved more than the Spurs did this off season IF the Mavs are planning on using the same personnel and strategy to play the Spurs?
Besides, Duncan averaged a lot of points (was it like 32?) vs. the Mavs last year in the playoffs. Yes, the Mavs won the series, but it was by a hairline, and given the way the composite ball could bounce this year, both the Spurs and the Mavs should think of better strategies to combat each other rather than relied on what worked last year.


The Spurs do need to keep two bigs on the floor, not just for the defense, but for the foul protection for Duncan. The big question is whether they can keep their center on the floor when the Mavs have Terry and Harris on the floor. Luckily we will get a clue to that answer very early on in the season. I know that it will be just one game, but the match-up of ... Well, everyone, on Dirk and whether they can guard him without putting Bowen on him will be the thing to watch, If not, the Spurs will have to either pull a trade to find someone, or start working on a zone if they intend to beat the Mavs.

Again, I am counting on Eric Williams being that other big, and perhaps even Elson.
BTW, to echo td4mvp21’s comments, you know your hoops. It’s actually very enjoyable to argue hoops with you.