The Fence: Good/Bad Idea?

[01Snake]

Looks like Mexico is going to go to the UN about the proposed fence the US is going to construct.

What is your take on the The Fence?

[JoeChalupa]

I'm on the fence on this one.

[JoeChalupa]

Okay, seriously I don't have any serious issues with it.

Build it and they will still come.

[101A]

It think that just because Mexico is whining about it to the U.N....we ought to build that bitch to the sky.

[01Snake]

Okay, seriously I don't have any serious issues with it.

Build it and they will still come.

I'm for it but, like you said, its not going to stop the problem. Slow it maybe. (a little :lol )

[desflood]

Bad idea, generally speaking (but only because it would not work).

[Spurminator]

I do have to wonder if it would make enough of a difference to offset the embarrassment of building a friggin fence to keep immigrants out.

[NASCARdad]

How in the hell do we know it won't work if we don't build it?

Build that sucker NOW and save America for it's citizens not the illegals.

[clambake]

Who knows. Bush is pretty good at putting up walls.

[01Snake]

I do have to wonder if it would make enough of a difference to offset the embarrassment of building a friggin fence to keep immigrants out.

Why is it an embarassment?

[clambake]

The embarassment and waste of time and money on building something that everyone knows is, at best, a bonehead idea.

[Spurminator]

Why is it an embarassment?

I don't have a good answer for that. Sort of like I couldn't tell you why "Freedom Fries" was embarrassing. It just is.

I guess it's just a silly example of paranoia overriding good judgment. It's not going to do a lot of good, but it is going to be very expensive. I think it's just an easy means to pacify simple-minded folk who think the root cause of the illegal immigrant problem is the Mexicans.

[clambake]

It will simplify planning for crossing the border.

"Meet me at the fence at midnight"

[boutons_]

It always helps to look for facts, history, hard experience to date.

It's pretty clear the fence won't work, based on San Diego's negative results.

=======================


Fence Meets Wall of Skepticism

Critics Doubt a 700-Mile Barrier Would Stem Migrant Tide

By John Pomfret
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 10, 2006; A03

CALEXICO, Calif. -- Legislation passed by Congress mandating the fencing of 700 miles of the U.S. border with Mexico has sparked opposition from an array of land managers, businesspeople, law enforcement officials, environmentalists and U.S. Border Patrol agents as a one-size-fits-all policy response to the nettlesome task of securing the nation's borders.

Critics said the fence does not take into account the extraordinarily varied geography of the 2,000-mile-long border, which cuts through Mexican and U.S. cities separated by a sidewalk, vast scrubland and deserts, rivers, irrigation canals and miles of mountainous terrain. They also say it seems to ignore advances in border security that don't involve construction of a 15-foot-high double fence and to play down what are expected to be significant costs to maintain the new barrier.

And, they say, the estimated $2 billion price tag and the mandate that it be completed by 2008 overlook 10 years of legal and logistical difficulties the federal government has faced to finish a comparatively tiny fence of 14 miles dividing San Diego and Tijuana.

"This is the feel-good approach to immigration control," said Wayne Cornelius, an expert on immigration issues at the University of California at San Diego. "The only pain is experienced by the migrants themselves. It doesn't hurt U.S. consumers; it doesn't hurt U.S. businesses. It only hurts taxpayers if they pay attention to spending on border enforcement."

Congress has decreed that five sections of reinforced fencing -- most probably a double fence with stadium lighting -- will be built along a third of the border, in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. The biggest section is planned from east of Calexico stretching more than 300 miles to west of Douglas, Ariz.

There also are questions of whether the fence will be more of a symbol to be used in elections than a reality along the border. For one thing, shortly before Congress adjourned, the House and Senate gave the Bush administration leeway to distribute the money allocated for the fence to other projects, including roads, technology and other infrastructure items to support the Department of Homeland Security's preferred option of building a "virtual fence."

Currently, less than 100 miles of the border is fenced, primarily in populated areas. San Diego has become a symbol for the efficacy of fences, but a closer look at the experience of that seaside city also illustrates the potential pitfalls.

In the mid-1990s, the city was awash in illegal immigrants. Hundreds would gather by a soccer field near Otay Mesa, east of San Diego, and rush into the United States on what the Border Patrol termed "banzai runs." During those years, Border Patrol agents routinely apprehended 200,000 illegal entrants a year in the sector. Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-Calif.) got funding to build a fence and thousands more Border Patrol officers were dispatched to the area. The number of crossers plummeted.

But the fence, originally estimated at $14 million, incurred huge cost overruns and logistical and legal hurdles. It took $39 million to build the first nine miles, and the fence has yet to be finished. For a decade, litigation has delayed construction of 3.5 miles of the structure because environmental groups have opposed a federal plan to lop the tops off two mesas and pour 5.5 million cubic feet of dirt into a valley, called "Smuggler's Gulch," to flatten the terrain. Environmental groups lost the case when the Department of Homeland Security invoked a law exempting it from federal and state regulations in the interest of national security. DHS recently appropriated an additional $35 million to complete the fence -- for a total of $74 million, or more than $5 million a mile.

The fence in San Diego forced illegal traffic into the deserts to the east, leading thousands of migrants to their death. In response, the Border Patrol shifted thousands of agents to Arizona to deal with the flow. But many of those agents came from the San Diego and El Centro sectors. So once again, the number of crossers in San Diego and El Centro is increasing even though the two sectors are the most heavily fenced in the nation.

"Tucson now has 2,600 agents. San Diego has lost 1,000 agents. Guess where the traffic is going? Back to San Diego." said T.J. Bonner, the president of the National Border Patrol Council, the main union for Border Patrol agents. "San Diego is the most heavily fortified border in the entire country, and yet it's not stopping people from coming across."

There are concerns along the border that the congressionally mandated fence could overshadow new, cheaper technologies that show some promise. For example, 30 miles of reinforced vehicle barriers, which cost on average $1 million a mile, have reduced by 95 percent road traffic from drug and migrant smugglers into the Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument, where a park ranger was shot and killed by narcotics traffickers in 2002, said Kathy Billings, superintendent of the territory. "We used to have two to three high-speed chases a month," she said. "Now we have less than six a year."

But even the vehicle barriers, posts in the ground connected to each other by railroad ties, need year-round maintenance. The barriers at Organ Pipe have already been breached four times since they were completed this summer. A full-scale double fence in the Arizona desert, where summer rains cause flash floods that often rip up anything in their path, would be extremely costly to build, let alone maintain, Billings said.

The ecological effect of a fence would be significant, according to Roger Di Rosa, manager of the Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge in Arizona, which runs along about 50 miles of the Mexican border. Efforts to protect pronghorn sheep and encourage the jaguar to return to the United States could be seriously affected, he said. "If it doesn't fly, it's not getting across," he said. "The law is pretty straightforward but the border is very unique."

Marine Corps officers in the region also have questioned the need for a fence. Using a combination of vehicle barriers and ground-based radar, they had blocked a significant portion of smuggling traffic through their land on the Yuma Proving Ground, which runs along 30 miles of the border, Di Rosa and others said. In recent months, however, the Pentagon for unknown reasons ordered the base to install a fence. Marine Corps officers at the facility did not return a call seeking comment.

Di Rosa and others cited other potential unintended consequences of fence-building. In some regions along the border, the nearest main road can be 80 miles away. So to build the barrier, roads must be created. That could end up facilitating movement into the United States rather than blocking it. Officials along the border challenged optimistic timelines that the wall could be built in two years, citing the high probability of lawsuits from environmental agencies and land owners.

In Texas, which is to get 200 miles of fencing, opposition to the plan has come from law enforcement and city governments. The City of El Paso has officially opposed the plan, as has the Texas Border Sheriff's Association.

Maverick County Sheriff Tomas S. Herrera predicted ranchers would sue the federal government to fight the installation of a fence on their property. One reason is that ranchers want access to the Rio Grande, which snakes 1,254 miles along the border, to water their herds and for sport fishermen who pay to use the waterway.

Perhaps because of these objections, Congress, in a late-night concession just before adjournment, pledged that Native American tribes, members of Congress, governors and local leaders would get a say in "the exact placement" of any structure, and that Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff has discretion to use alternatives "when fencing is ineffective or impractical."

Herrra thinks flexibility might be needed. He echoed a widespread skepticism about federal programs, hatched in Washington, designed to deal with the border problems.

"A few years ago, they installed cameras and said the cameras would solve things," he said. "Those cameras can pick up a tick on a cow's back. But when half the monitors are all busted like they are now, they don't work."

His prediction for how illegal immigrants would deal with the wall: "They will get ladders made out of mesquite and climb it."

© 2006 The Washington Post Company

[01Snake]

folk who think the root cause of the illegal immigrant problem is the Mexicans.

I'd say thay are 1/2 of the equation. :lol

[PixelPusher]

The Fence: Good/Bad Idea?

For historical reference, see: Berlin Wall, Maginot Line, Great Wall of China, Hadrian's Wall...

[clambake]

Bush doesn't do things based on whether they work or not.

[smeagol]

I don't have a good answer for that. Sort of like I couldn't tell you why "Freedom Fries" was embarrassing. It just is.

I guess it's just a silly example of paranoia overriding good judgment. It's not going to do a lot of good, but it is going to be very expensive. I think it's just an easy means to pacify simple-minded folk who think the root cause of the illegal immigrant problem is the Mexicans.
:tu :worthy: :clap

[Zunni]

How in the hell do we know it won't work if we don't build it?

Build that sucker NOW and save America for it's citizens not the illegals.
Because they're tunnelling RIGHT NOW under the walls and fences along the Cali border? And that's with TONS of people and Law around. Give them a chance at an unpatrolled area, and they'll be under in an hour, tops. You're paying a HUGE price to merely slow them down by minutes. Typical of this administration to waste money on non-productive "solutions".

[ducks]

How in the hell do we know it won't work if we don't build it?

Build that sucker NOW and save America for it's citizens not the illegals.

it is working in cal where they have it


build it high and deep and then shot the people that try to cross
I bet that solves the problem

[ducks]

Because they're tunnelling RIGHT NOW under the walls and fences along the Cali border? And that's with TONS of people and Law around. Give them a chance at an unpatrolled area, and they'll be under in an hour, tops. You're paying a HUGE price to merely slow them down by minutes. Typical of this administration to waste money on non-productive "solutions".

so you suggest they spend my money on paying themselves and instead of trying to protect the boulder

how would you solve the problem?

[ducks]

Bush doesn't do things based on whether they work or not.


congress passed it
bush just signed it
but blame bush though

[RobinsontoDuncan]

IIRC I believe Mexico has a fence on its own southern border, making this exchange rather commical to me.... that and I'm not sure why the Mexican government would care if a fence existed...it's not like the US would be stopping trade, this just tells me that the government is sponsoring illegal immigration...or that's what it sounds like...kind of interesting.

That being said, illegal immigration will never end until dollar diplomacy and US imperalism in Latin America is no more.

[Guru of Nothing]

Annex Mexico - that'll show'em!

[spurster]

Fences? Obstacles are only effective if covered by fire. Any fool should know that. No, I wouldn't shoot; I'd forget fences.
From a TR Fehrenbach column.

[smeagol]

it is working in cal where they have it


build it high and deep and then shot the people that try to cross
I bet that solves the problem
I did not now this disgusting side of ducks

[Clandestino]

it is a big fucking waste of money... the only thing that would stop people is having armed guards every 50 feet that shoot on site... and that is a big waste of manpower, time and money too..

[boutons_]

"it is working in cal where they have it"

No, the San Diego and other fences AREN'T working.

[Ozzman]

Hell I don't support it. It is just wasting money, it's not like it's gonna stop anything. Heck I like illegals. Mainly because they do their jobs and rarely bitch bout it if they are paid well and treated well . Why the heck wouldn't you? I mean, americans bitch about how they can't get jobs because of the Illegals, but they are offered jobs of the sort that illegals usually take, and then say "Oh the pay is not good enough" or "The conditions are too harsh" or BS like that. Try going and getting paid $5 a day for 6 days a week in Guatemala! Or living in Ethiopia where there are NO jobs to take! Or sometimes they will bitch about shit that is part of life and then sue their boss because "he didn't give us copius amounts of water" and "I'm allergic to asphalt or whatever the hell you are using" and Shit like that. I mean, there is a such thing as sucking it up and not being a pussy about the water not tasting like beef or some gay shit like that. I mean, where has the COMMON SENSE and THINKING FOR YOURSELF gone?

I'll tell you where it's gone......it's gone to your waistlines. You're getting fatter and dumber and more wasteful than ever, and that's why people don't like you! You think you can think for yourself, but why do you dumbasses have all these new laws like the patriot act and gay stupid dumb shit like that? it's because the vast majority of your god damn nation can't distinguish between normal, abnormal, and suspicious activities, AND you can't think for yourself! You Government has to do it for you! There is something WRONG with this picture! That is why when I am done with my semester at UA-Alaska (yea, I transfered), I am fucking back in canada. You americans are so stupid sometimes it makes me want to vomit my guts out. I compare it a lot to What Yoni's sig says: "after a day with interacting with americans, I feel like I have wasted a day trying to reason with poo flinging monkeys. And the next day, they will be exactly the same, and I wonder why I waste my days with them."

American values these days are fucked up.......of course the rest of the world's is, too, but your's is bad because you all are so rich....

[Guru of Nothing]

the only thing that would stop people is having armed guards every 50 feet that shoot on site... and that is a big waste of manpower, time and money too..

Not if you hire Mexicans.

[ATX Spur]

so you suggest they spend my money on paying themselves and instead of trying to protect the boulder

how would you solve the problem?

How is it a problem? Is the immigrant going to steal that job you were gunning for? Minimum wage, picking in fields and no bathroom breaks?

[ATX Spur]

it is working in cal where they have it


build it high and deep and then shot the people that try to cross
I bet that solves the problem

Maybe the Native Americans should have done that to your ancestors when they came to the US.

[ATX Spur]

His prediction for how illegal immigrants would deal with the wall: "They will get ladders made out of mesquite and climb it."

Best part of the whole article.

[BIG IRISH]

The "Fence" as we were lead to believe is not going to happen


No sooner did Congress authorize construction of a 700-mile fence on the U.S.-Mexico border last week than lawmakers rushed to approve separate legislation that ensures it will never be built, at least not as advertised, according to Republican lawmakers and immigration experts.

GOP leaders have singled out the fence as one of the primary accomplishments of the recently completed session. Many lawmakers plan to highlight their $1.2 billion down payment on its construction as they campaign in the weeks before the midterm elections.

But shortly before recessing late Friday, the House and Senate gave the Bush administration leeway to distribute the money to a combination of projects -- not just the physical barrier along the southern border. The funds may also be spent on roads, technology and "tactical infrastructure" to support the Department of Homeland Security's preferred option of a "virtual fence."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15149231

and more from the local level
Border fence won't happen, GOP lawmaker says

Eunice Moscoso
Cox News Service
Oct. 3, 2006 02:28 PM


WASHINGTON - Sen. John Cornyn, a Texas Republican and key liaison to the White House on immigration, said Tuesday that 700 miles of fencing approved by Congress will probably not be built because of a lack of money and other practical considerations.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1003immig-fence03-ON.html


Even if they built 700 miles it would still leave 1300 miles. We need to put the Military on the border, maybe after Bush, Cuts and runs in IRAQ.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't see why you guys are so hot to destroy the construction, restaurant, hotel maintenence and government official nanny industries in one fell swoop.

[jochhejaam]

I don't see why you guys are so hot to destroy the construction, restaurant, hotel maintenence and government official nanny industries in one fell swoop.
Obviously that's not the purpose of the wall. Futile or not, it's being built (or not) for security purposes.

[velik_m]

i don't know if it's good or bad idea, but it sure looks like an expensive one. i'm glad it's not my money.

[ATX Spur]

Obviously that's not the purpose of the wall. Futile or not, it's being built (or not) for security purposes.

Security purposes? How so?

[NASCARdad]

Enforce the borders with our military if necessary. We MUST stop the illegal immigration before we become Northern Mexico.

[xrayzebra]

Hell I don't support it. It is just wasting money, it's not like it's gonna stop anything. Heck I like illegals. Mainly because they do their jobs and rarely bitch bout it if they are paid well and treated well . Why the heck wouldn't you? I mean, americans bitch about how they can't get jobs because of the Illegals, but they are offered jobs of the sort that illegals usually take, and then say "Oh the pay is not good enough" or "The conditions are too harsh" or BS like that. Try going and getting paid $5 a day for 6 days a week in Guatemala! Or living in Ethiopia where there are NO jobs to take! Or sometimes they will bitch about shit that is part of life and then sue their boss because "he didn't give us copius amounts of water" and "I'm allergic to asphalt or whatever the hell you are using" and Shit like that. I mean, there is a such thing as sucking it up and not being a pussy about the water not tasting like beef or some gay shit like that. I mean, where has the COMMON SENSE and THINKING FOR YOURSELF gone?

I'll tell you where it's gone......it's gone to your waistlines. You're getting fatter and dumber and more wasteful than ever, and that's why people don't like you! You think you can think for yourself, but why do you dumbasses have all these new laws like the patriot act and gay stupid dumb shit like that? it's because the vast majority of your god damn nation can't distinguish between normal, abnormal, and suspicious activities, AND you can't think for yourself! You Government has to do it for you! There is something WRONG with this picture! That is why when I am done with my semester at UA-Alaska (yea, I transfered), I am fucking back in canada. You americans are so stupid sometimes it makes me want to vomit my guts out. I compare it a lot to What Yoni's sig says: "after a day with interacting with americans, I feel like I have wasted a day trying to reason with poo flinging monkeys. And the next day, they will be exactly the same, and I wonder why I waste my days with them."

American values these days are fucked up.......of course the rest of the world's is, too, but your's is bad because you all are so rich....


Yeah, we are so damn dumb that you want to go to our
Universities. We really are dumb because we let you.

Tell me all about your most wonderful country of Canada.
I lived there for four years and talk about laws....WOW!
They had a female mayor in Ottawa who couldn't crank out
new laws fast enough, all liberal BS. Like if you splashed
someone with the numerous potholes in the winter that
was walking on the sidewalk, they could take your license
number and make you pay for the cleaning of their
clothes. Or the great idea of a green belt.....wonder if
they ever got that done....I doubt it.

Yep, go to Canada and good riddance.

[xrayzebra]

"it is working in cal where they have it"

No, the San Diego and other fences AREN'T working.

Better check your stats again. It is working and illegal
crossings are down in SD area.


Also, do you know how many emergency rooms have closed
in California because of the illegals. Hospitals couldn't
absorb the cost and remain in business.

[johnsmith]

I don't see why you guys are so hot to destroy the construction, restaurant, hotel maintenence and government official nanny industries in one fell swoop.


I know this is a joke, but I agree, let them come over, just so as long as they continue to mow my lawn and take care of my flower beds, I'm fine with it.

[xrayzebra]

I know this is a joke, but I agree, let them come over, just so as long as they continue to mow my lawn and take care of my flower beds, I'm fine with it.

You know you are putting out one of the biggest mis-conceptions.

No one wants to stop immigration. Just the illegals coming
across. What is so hard to understand about that.

Another thing, you may want to look around at some who
take care of people's yards. Many are Anglo. So there are
those that will do the work other than illegals.

[johnsmith]

You know you are putting out one of the biggest mis-conceptions.

No one wants to stop immigration. Just the illegals coming
across. What is so hard to understand about that.

Another thing, you may want to look around at some who
take care of people's yards. Many are Anglo. So there are
those that will do the work other than illegals.


I know what conception I'm putting out there. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the guys working on my yard aren't here legally, so again, keep 'em coming...........oh, and most of the anglo's are their foreman/crew chiefs/etc.

[Murphy]

my friend is a former Border Patrol Agent from San Diego, in his words "You just park and they come to you"

[ATX Spur]

You know you are putting out one of the biggest mis-conceptions.

No one wants to stop immigration. Just the illegals coming
across. What is so hard to understand about that.

Another thing, you may want to look around at some who
take care of people's yards. Many are Anglo. So there are
those that will do the work other than illegals.

But why do you want to stop the illegals? No one has even touched on answering this question. And why through such drastic means as a $2 billion wall?

[Yonivore]

But why do you want to stop the illegals? No one has even touched on answering this question.
How else would you suggest we discern the terrorists, criminals, and violent gang members from those that just want to make a better life for themselves?

There isn't any other way other than exerting control over the entire border. Period.


And why through such drastic means as a $2 billion wall?
Anybody remember the price tag for two one-hundred and ten story buildings in lower Manhattan, its occupants, furnishings, and capital? How 'bout the price of lost revenue in the Travel and Service sector after 9-11?

$2 Billion dollars is a bargain if it means stopping the terrorists from coming across our Southern Border.

[valluco]

$2 Billion dollars is a bargain if it means stopping the terrorists from coming across our Southern Border.

What about our Northern Border? You know, the same border that most of the 9/11 hijackers came across.

[boutons_]

If the $25B+ / year FBI/NSA/CIA would do their jobs aggressively, professionally, with tools they had before 9/11, there would have been a very good chance that 9/11 would have been aborted.

The fence is not going to cost $2B but many times more that, and all the people directly involved along the border think its a bad idea. The fence is pure electioneering bullshit, just another Rove talking point parroted by the Yoni's and other right-wing bots.

FBI/NSA/CIA/etc get $2B+ PER MONTH.

The Repug DHS fiasco gets $3B+/month

[PixelPusher]

How else would you suggest we discern the terrorists, criminals, and violent gang members from those that just want to make a better life for themselves?

There isn't any other way other than exerting control over the entire border. Period.

So when are we building the Canadian fence?


Anybody remember the price tag for two one-hundred and ten story buildings in lower Manhattan, its occupants, furnishings, and capital? How 'bout the price of lost revenue in the Travel and Service sector after 9-11?

$2 Billion dollars is a bargain if it means stopping the terrorists from coming across our Southern Border.

considering thats what we are spending per week in Iraq, yeah I guess it is a bargain.

[Ocotillo]

The fence is a waste of money.

When it doesn't stop people from coming what then? A moat? With alligators? How about landmines in the desert? Let's build two fences and let pit bulls run between the two so if you jump the fence you are caged between two fences with crazed pit bulls. What next?

[ducks]

I did not now this disgusting side of ducks

build the fence warn them and shot them
it is not legal what they are doing so they pay the price

[ducks]

Better check your stats again. It is working and illegal
crossings are down in SD area.


Also, do you know how many emergency rooms have closed
in California because of the illegals. Hospitals couldn't
absorb the cost and remain in business.
:elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant

[ducks]

How is it a problem? Is the immigrant going to steal that job you were gunning for? Minimum wage, picking in fields and no bathroom breaks?
how is it a problem
letting people in without passports is dangerous
that is how the terrious got in in the first place

they could just go to mexico and come in

[ducks]

Security purposes? How so?
do you want those people that are breaking the law break into a bank and rob your money and shoot you on the way out

[ATX Spur]

how is it a problem
letting people in without passports is dangerous
that is how the terrious got in in the first place

they could just go to mexico and come in

You see, this is actually a good point to argue. Good. Why don't you actually say this stuff, instead of a dumb 'shoot people at the border' remark?

[PixelPusher]

how is it a problem
letting people in without passports is dangerous
that is how the terrious got in in the first place

they could just go to mexico and come in

nope. The 9/11 hijackers entered the U.S. legally with tourist and student visas.

[Phenomanul]

Bad idea...


Waste of money if you ask me.

Not to mention it will make the US an icon of intolerance... ironic when one considers that the US is the supposed spreader of the ideals of democracy and freedom.

Somehow U.S. citizens see themselves as more important than everyone else... that reeks of greed...



how is it a problem
letting people in without passports is dangerous
that is how the terrious got in in the first place

they could just go to mexico and come in

Which terrorists came in through Mexico?

[bendmz]

Enforce the borders with our military if necessary. We MUST stop the illegal immigration before we become Northern Mexico.

I take it you have not been to a border town lately... Northern Mexico is growing by the day. English is no longer the first language there spanish has become the first language, english is the second.
No sir, Mr. Nascardad, I'm afraid we're too late for that..... :oops

[01Snake]

Which terrorists came in through Mexico?

Who knows. Kinda scary though.

[Phenomanul]

Who knows. Kinda scary though.

It was stated as a fact.... that's all I was trying to point out...

[ATX Spur]

build the fence warn them and shot them
it is not legal what they are doing so they pay the price

Jaywalking in the street isn't legal either, but I'm not about to shoot you for it.

[ATX Spur]

Surely you all have more ammunition to argue with, not more of this zenophobic messiness. We're talking about billions of our money. Yours, mine, everyone's.

[smeagol]

they could just go to mexico and come in
There have been more terrorists caught coming in from Canada than from Mexico.

Build a wall accross the Canadian border, I say.

Maybe, it it can also bee seen from outer space (a la great wall of China).

[smeagol]

do you want those people that are breaking the law break into a bank and rob your money and shoot you on the way out
Nah, Americans are lining up to do this kind of job, or shoot people in schools, or abduct kids.

But lets blame crime on the indocumentados. That surely raises the avergae Joe's fears.

[johnsmith]

Nah, Americans are lining up to do this kind of job, or shoot people in schools, or abduct kids.

But lets blame crime on the indocumentados. That surely raises the avergae Joe's fears.

Wow, Mass media has sucked you in.

[Ozzman]

Why not just merge Canada, the U.S. and Mexico? And calle it the United North American Country or something like that, and then just have like three national languages? Just a thought, not looking for serious posts on this....

[smeagol]

Wow, Mass media has sucked you in.
No it hasn't.

It's simply that ducks takes on this threa are pretty stupid.

[Phenomanul]

As an aside... Mexicans aren't sympathetic to terrorists or their causes....

So I don't know where the idea that they are somehow getting across through Mexico is even a valid, and statistically founded argument... much less the suggestion that they are coming across with their help.

Could terrorists get in through Mexico? Sure, if they wanted to get in to the U.S. really bad. But that goes the same for Canada, and our coastal borders. Using terrorist xenophobia as an excuse to build a multi-billion dollar fence will not solve the key problem. Using it as a mask for national security will only expose a deeper rooted problem; one that supposedly doesn't 'exist' in today's uber-tolerant, multi-ethnic 'American' society.

Anyhow, Mexicans don't like terrorists any more than Americans do... But if we wanted to get technical about it... Americans have historically dealt with more terrorists emanating from within than from Mexico...

Timothy McVeigh?... anyone?
The Columbine High-School Shooters... and countless of other spin-offs.
The DC Area Sniper...
even David Koresh to an extent...

The only Mexican bandit (that comes to mind) to cause national strife in the U.S. was Pancho Villa... and I would hardly consider his actions, as illegal as they were, terrorist acts by any stretch of the term... he was simply a criminal... not someone trying to push a political or religious cause via violence conducted against the U.S.

[Yonivore]

The fence is a waste of money.

When it doesn't stop people from coming what then? A moat? With alligators? How about landmines in the desert? Let's build two fences and let pit bulls run between the two so if you jump the fence you are caged between two fences with crazed pit bulls. What next?
The San Diego fence works fine.

And, sure, build one on the Canadian border as well. It might cost a bit more though.

[xrayzebra]

As an aside... Mexicans aren't sympathetic to terrorists or their causes....

So I don't know where the idea that they are somehow getting across through Mexico is even a valid, and statistically founded argument... much less the suggestion that they are coming across with their help.

Could terrorists get in through Mexico? Sure, if they wanted to get in to the U.S. really bad. But that goes the same for Canada, and our coastal borders. Using terrorist xenophobia as an excuse to build a multi-billion dollar fence will not solve the key problem. Using it as a mask for national security will only expose a deeper rooted problem; one that supposedly doesn't 'exist' in today's uber-tolerant, multi-ethnic 'American' society.

Anyhow, Mexicans don't like terrorists any more than Americans do... But if we wanted to get technical about it... Americans have historically dealt with more terrorists emanating from within than from Mexico...

Timothy McVeigh?... anyone?
The Columbine High-School Shooters... and countless of other spin-offs.
The DC Area Sniper...
even David Koresh to an extent...

The only Mexican bandit (that comes to mind) to cause national strife in the U.S. was Pancho Villa... and I would hardly consider his actions, as illegal as they were, terrorist acts by any stretch of the term... he was simply a criminal... not someone trying to push a political or religious cause via violence conducted against the U.S.

"The only Mexican bandit (that comes to mind) to cause national strife in the U.S. was Pancho Villa... and I would hardly consider his actions, as illegal as they were, terrorist acts by any stretch of the term... he was simply a criminal... not someone trying to push a political or religious cause via violence conducted against the U.S."

Just wondering, ever heard of the Narco's that are fighting a war in
Mexico and have stated they would not be opposed to do a little
smuggling for AQ. Money is money as they put it. They already cause
us problems with their drugs and drug money here in the U.S. Like you
know the Mexican Mafia which likes to go around killing people who
disagree with them.

[ChumpDumper]

Who is the official spokesman for the Mexican Evil Narco Terraist Organization of Scariness (MENTOS) and when did he pimp AQ?

[01Snake]

Mara Salvatrucha 13 anyone??

[Yonivore]

http://www.fbi.gov/terrorinfo/elshukrijumah.htm

Is believed to have entered the United States of America, illegally, across the Mexican border.

Has been seen in Austin area.

You guys don't pay attention very well.

And then, as Snake pointed out, there's MS-13.

[Yonivore]

Besides, maybe a few refugee camps popping up on the Mexican side of the border would bring some needed sunlight to the plight of the Mexican people.

Having them all move here to escape the squalor that is Mexican life, brought on by years of a corrupt political process, is just not a realistic option.

[La Migra]

We don't need no damn fence. All we need is more funding and more officers to get the job done and the 9/11 Hijackers didn't come across the border that I cover.

[ChumpDumper]

Mara Salvatrucha 13 anyone??
And then, as Snake pointed out, there's MS-13.
[FBI task force director Robert] Clifford said MS-13 has no ties to al Qaeda.

http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20050504-115113-3615r.htm

[01Snake]

We don't need no damn fence. All we need is more funding and more officers to get the job done and the 9/11 Hijackers didn't come across the border that I cover.


The BP is simply overwhelmed. Even with more officers, they still couldn't put an end to the problem.

[01Snake]

http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20050504-115113-3615r.htm

No ties to AQ? Well hell, let those fuckers in! woohoo! :lol

[ChumpDumper]

Just clarifying that the AQ linkage is bogus.

[Yonivore]

http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20050504-115113-3615r.htm
Who said they had ties to Al Qaeda?

Does a murderous gang have to have ties to al Qaeda before we want them prevented from crossing the border illegally?

[ChumpDumper]

Who said they had ties to Al Qaeda?Xray. Try to keep up.
Does a murderous gang have to have ties to al Qaeda before we want them prevented from crossing the border illegally?Build all the fences you want.

[Yonivore]

Just clarifying that the AQ linkage is bogus.
Just to clarify, this is the same bogus, red-herring, type logic the left used to try and claim the Bush administration said Iraq was involved in the 9-11 attacks.

MS-13 is a credible national security threat. It doesn't matter if they know Osama bin Laden or not.

[JoeChalupa]

Yonivore will come up with every excuse in the book. I say we put up a fence around the Statue of Liberty to keep out the Russian Mafia, all the European criminals, the Asian Gangs, and anybody else.

[Yonivore]

Yonivore will come up with every excuse in the book. I say we put up a fence around the Statue of Liberty to keep out the Russian Mafia, all the European criminals, the Asian Gangs, and anybody else.
Excuse for what? What am I excusing?

What's your solution for stopping the criminals while letting the needy through?

[ChumpDumper]

Just to clarify, this is the same bogus, red-herring, type logic the left used to try and claim the Bush administration said Iraq was involved in the 9-11 attacks.
Just to clarify, you're a dumbass who can't read.
MS-13 is a credible national security threat. It doesn't matter if they know Osama bin Laden or not.Then there's no reason for Xray to link them, is there?

[JoeChalupa]

Excuse for what? What am I excusing?

What's your solution for stopping the criminals while letting the needy through?

More border patrol agents and more funding. If we can spend billions on Iraq we sure as hell can spend billions giving the border patrol what they need.

[Yonivore]

More border patrol agents and more funding. If we can spend billions on Iraq we sure as hell can spend billions giving the border patrol what they need.
A fence is less expensive than employing enough people to monitor the border 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

So, why not give the border patrol a fence?

[JoeChalupa]

Fences will be broken, which will costs money to repair. They will still need to be patrolled so why not give the Border Patrol what it WANTS, which is more agents.

[Yonivore]

Fences will be broken, which will costs money to repair. They will still need to be patrolled so why not give the Border Patrol what it WANTS, which is more agents.
The cost will still be lower.

Hell, give 'em more agents too. Again, why are you opposed to a fence?

[bendmz]

If the Border Patrol was allowed to perform their jobs without the intervention of every self-rightous, my cause banner carrying, loud mouth idiot jumping in, well maybe we can make some progress. Until this society sees itself for what it is and take a stand and not sway to the pressure of the loudest sreaming, then we can control the direction of OUR goverment's actions......

[ChumpDumper]

Until this society sees itself for what it isWhat is it?

[Yonivore]

What is it?
Apparently, a good portion of them are self-rightous, my cause banner carrying, loud mouth, jumping in idiots.

[ChumpDumper]

So why would they do anything different?

[Phenomanul]

http://www.fbi.gov/terrorinfo/elshukrijumah.htm

Is believed to have entered the United States of America, illegally, across the Mexican border.


Remarks: El Shukrijumah occasionally wears a beard. He has a pronounced nose and is asthmatic. El Shukrijumah speaks English and carries a Guyanese passport, but may attempt to enter the United States with a Saudi, Canadian, or Trinidadian passport.

Committing passport fraud to get into the U.S. is not the same thing as trying to cross the border through the desert or across the river...

A criminal act yes... but not one a fence would have prevented.




Has been seen in Austin area.

You guys don't pay attention very well.

And then, as Snake pointed out, there's MS-13.

When did I suggest that criminals weren't a problem? I'm talking about using terrorism as a facade for building the fence.

Not all criminals are terrorists.

All terrorists, however, are criminals. Catch the logic?

Anyhow, the MS-13 are from El Salvador, not Mexico. Mexican authorities are trying to weed these gangs out of the country as well. They just don't have enough (dedicated) resources to combat them.

You and snake01 act as if Mexico is harboring them willingly.

[01Snake]

You and snake01 act as if Mexico is harboring them willingly.


Never said they were harboring them...they are simply using Mexico for one point of entry into the US.

[clambake]

Fuck the fence. Use landmines and claymores and bear traps and republicans. You know thats what you really want.

[Ozzman]

Fences will be CLIMBED, and therefore a waste of money. That and those nifty things called WIRE CUTTERS!!!!

[Ocotillo]

The cost will still be lower.



And you get what you pay for. People climb fences, cut fences, dig under fences.......

[smeagol]

When people are desperate, they'll do anything.

A fence will not stop desperate people who have nothing to eat at home, and cannot provide the basics for their families.

Until the rest of the World develops, much as like the US, people will continue coming into this country becaus ethey have the opportunities they will never have at home.

If it's terrorist you are worried about, build a fence accross every border, not just Mexico.

[clambake]

The idea of a fence is laughable.

It will only hender the honest hard working people looking for work.

A fence will triple the corruption of coyotes on both sides of that fence.

Border guards will become part time coyotes.

We can't even build a prison that can keep drugs out and you think you can fence off a country. Bush has had 6 years and this is his response?

[ducks]

maybe they can send stephen jackson on community service and guard the border with his gun!