First of a three article collaboration with Hoopworld's Bill Ingram about our Spurs

[nbascribe]

http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_18878.shtml

I think we're going to be better than some experts think. Bill things some things may have hurt this team. Should be good banter.

Of course my homerisms could be showing for our boys.... :lol

[ducks]

Spurs: Too Weak in the Middle?
By Bill Ingram with Gregory Moore
Oct 9, 2006, 12:16


Many NBA pundits feel that the San Antonio Spurs have finally taken a step down. After six straight seasons of championship-caliber basketball the team traded away their starting center and then lost the man they had pegged to replace him on a full-time basis. Rasho’s departure was not a huge loss, but Nazr Mohammed’s defection to Detroit may have been the move that set the Spurs back a step. Sure, they signed Jackie Butler, but can a third-string New York Knick evolve into a Western Conference starter soon enough to keep the Spurs ahead of the curve? HOOPSWORLD’s Bill Ingram and the San Antonio Informer’s Gregory Moore break it down:

GM: When it came to Rasho Nesterovic and the Spurs, I always thought that he was the best choice they could have gotten the year that they signed him as a free agent. The biggest problem with Rasho's game is that he did not play with any fire. As a center, he was not very 'explosive' in defense and offensively he wasn't really a viable option. Maybe that was the fault of him filling the shoes of David Robinson but that's the price you pay sometimes when you follow a player who was the franchise in the center position.

BI: Greg makes a good point about filling The Admiral’s shoes, but I think a bigger issue was that Rasho’s game is basically identical to Tim Duncan’s on the offensive end. He likes to operate in the same space, taking mid-range jumpers and playing the middle of the paint rather than the back-to-the-basket style of a traditional NBA center. We saw that he was quite effective when Duncan was out with injuries – less so when he was playing alongside Tim. Rasho was not asked to do very much in the Spurs’ offensive set, and he’s one of those players who needs a few touches to get himself involved in the game. Gregg Popovich repeatedly said that Rasho was doing what was asked of him during the 2004-05 season. When his playing time became sporadic in the 2005-06 season I think Rasho just gave up. Now that he’s in a system that will look for him to do more, and with an outstanding floor leader in TJ Ford, Rasho will probably have a career year for the Raptors.

GM: When the Spurs obtained Nazr Muhammad two seasons ago from the New York Knicks, many thought that he was going to be a bust. Surprisingly Nazr did exceptionally well during the 2005 season and helped the Spurs win their second NBA title. So last season should have been his break out season, right? Wrong. It was probably the worst season of his six-year career. Muhammad didn't play like the player from the championship season. He didn't rebound exceptionally well. He played extremely soft in the middle on defense; so much so that he lost the starting position to Rasho.

When it came to the playoff run, Nazr failed to be effective against the Dallas Mavericks in the second round but that was endemic to how he played the whole season. Despite his grumblings of not being used effectively, the Spurs had to find an answer and they let Muhammad go even though he received an equal offer from the team that he has in Detroit now.

BI: We were all pleasantly surprised by Nazr’s production when he arrived in San Antonio. In his first full season as a Spur he averaged close to 10 points, eight rebounds, and better than a block per game, which is impressive given that he was not even the fifth option on the team in terms of offense. Most of his points came on put-backs and hustle plays that were not actually drawn up for him. He was making something out of nothing. Unlike Greg, I see his shortcomings in 2005-06 as more a part of his lack of consistent playing time than anything else. Nazr averaged 25.1 minutes per game the previous season, making his averages even more impressive. There are plenty of NBA centers who record 30 plus minutes per game who don’t give their teams a nightly double-double threat.

Nazr appeared in only eight playoff games for the Spurs, and I would say the reason he wasn’t a factor in the Dallas series had as much to do with his lack of playing time as anything else. Popovich decided to go small against Dallas and play the run-and-gun game. It’s easy to second-guess that decision in retrospect, but it does seem that the Spurs decided to play Avery Johnson’s game instead of forcing the Mavs to play Popovich’s. Today’s NBA lends itself to a more up-tempo style of play and punishes teams for playing too much defense, so Pop’s decision made a degree of sense. But at the end of the day the reason Nazr left for Detroit was because they guaranteed that he would play and they are as much a contender as the Spurs. The Pistons found themselves another Ben Wallace type who didn’t cost nearly as much as Ben would have. All Nazr has to do is grow his hair out and make the most of his opportunity.

GM: With the Spurs acquiring Jackie Butler, the team may have found a center that is hungry enough to want to play the position in a scheme that is very defense-oriented. I was highly impressed with him while he played for the Knicks. What this team has is just raw talent ready to be channeled in the right direction. Can Butler be a starter for this team? Not off the bat. That job will most likely go to Francisco Elson. But Butler can definitely benefit from being versatile enough to play with not only Tim Duncan but also Matt Bonner or Robert Horry. He can become a very good player in this system but he will have to be ready to work and learn from his veterans on the floor.

BI: I agree Butler has potential, but the Spurs are not a team that can afford to wait too long for him to realize it. This is a team that is built to win now – they are in the middle of a peak in their franchise’s development. They are considered to be a championship team every season, and Butler doesn’t exactly fit that mold. If the Spurs were rebuilding, I’d say Butler is exactly the kind of player they should gamble on, but that’s not where this franchise is.

As for Francisco Elson, it seems like wishful thinking to say that he’s ready to be the starter for the Spurs. More prepared than Butler, sure, but still not what a championship team needs in the middle. Elson gave the Nuggets 4.9 points and 4.7 rebounds in 72 games last season. It’s clear he’ll get more playing time in San Antonio, but will he immediately become a force in the paint? What if Duncan gets hurt? Can he hold down the fort? I don’t think so. Duncan’s injury status and Robert Horry’s age seem to be the biggest factors facing the Spurs as they try to get back to the NBA Finals this season. I’m not sure it’s a realistic expectation with the platoon of sub-par players who will be logging minutes at the five.

NEXT UP: Tony Parker shot an incredible 55% from the field last year in what was easily his best season as a pro. How effective will he be this season, given that teams will be looking to stop his penetration? On the other side of the backcourt, does Manu need to evolve in order to be the force the Spurs need him to be this season? Is his frenetic style of play actually hurting the team? The answers to these questions coming soon in our next edition of The Spurs Report!

Got a comment for Gregory Moore? He can be reached at: [email protected].


© Copyright 2005 by HOOPSWORLD.com, a Basketball News Services Exclusive

[FromWayDowntown]

The argument begins from the false premise that the Spurs had pegged Nazr to replace Rasho. I don't think the Spurs had any interest in bringing back either Rasho or Nazr and I think those decisions had been made long before the free agency period began. I'm still at a loss to figure out how the loss of someone who didn't do anything during the playoffs can be a huge step back; it's a bit like saying that the Spurs took a huge step back in 2003-04 when they let Steve Smith go to New Orleans.

[angel_luv]

BI: Greg makes a good point about filling The Admiral’s shoes, but I think a bigger issue was that Rasho’s game is basically identical to Tim Duncan’s on the offensive end. He likes to operate in the same space, taking mid-range jumpers and playing the middle of the paint rather than the back-to-the-basket style of a traditional NBA center. We saw that he was quite effective when Duncan was out with injuries – less so when he was playing alongside Tim. Rasho was not asked to do very much in the Spurs’ offensive set, and he’s one of those players who needs a few touches to get himself involved in the game. Gregg Popovich repeatedly said that Rasho was doing what was asked of him during the 2004-05 season. When his playing time became sporadic in the 2005-06 season I think Rasho just gave up. Now that he’s in a system that will look for him to do more, and with an outstanding floor leader in TJ Ford, Rasho will probably have a career year for the Raptors.

Overall, I agree with Bill's take on this. Well said. :tu

[Solid D]

Gregory, I'm surprised at you with your assessment of Rasho's offensive game...that it is "basically identical" to Tim Duncan's offensive game.(?) I agree that Rasho and Tim liked to work in similar areas, however, Tim is probably the best post player the Spurs have had...ever, excepting perhaps A-Train. Yes, he likes to get out on the floor and work in space and he does so very well, but Tim frequently does this and then ends up, half the time, turning his back and deftly uses his stellar post moves to score.

What? No Oberto? He may have a role worth mentioning this year.

[FromWayDowntown]

BI: Nazr appeared in only eight playoff games for the Spurs, and I would say the reason he wasn’t a factor in the Dallas series had as much to do with his lack of playing time as anything else. Popovich decided to go small against Dallas and play the run-and-gun game.

Popovich decided to go small when his team got run out of the gym in Game 2 and in the first half of Game 3. Nazr got time during each of those efforts and immediately showed that he couldn't play at the pace that the Mavericks were dictating. It was equally clear that the Spurs weren't able to dictate pace, making their bigs look like glaciers drifting into the South Pacific -- they weren't going to last very long. This is a ridiculous point to me.


It’s easy to second-guess that decision in retrospect, but it does seem that the Spurs decided to play Avery Johnson’s game instead of forcing the Mavs to play Popovich’s. Today’s NBA lends itself to a more up-tempo style of play and punishes teams for playing too much defense, so Pop’s decision made a degree of sense.

I'm convinced that Pop made the only decision that gave his team a chance to win that series. Pop's decision was the only sensible decision to be made.


But at the end of the day the reason Nazr left for Detroit was because they guaranteed that he would play and they are as much a contender as the Spurs. The Pistons found themselves another Ben Wallace type who didn’t cost nearly as much as Ben would have. All Nazr has to do is grow his hair out and make the most of his opportunity.

Nazr as a Ben Wallace type?

:lmao

[boutons_]

"I'm still at a loss to figure out how the loss of someone who didn't do anything during the playoffs can be a huge step back;"

exactly. Logical fallacies and prejudice like this are fairly typical from sports "journalists".
:lol

[nbascribe]

Gregory, I'm surprised at you with your assessment of Rasho's offensive game...that it is "basically identical" to Tim Duncan's offensive game.(?) I agree that Rasho and Tim liked to work in similar areas, however, Tim is probably the best post player the Spurs have had...ever, excepting perhaps A-Train. Yes, he likes to get out on the floor and work in space and he does so very well, but Tim frequently does this and then ends up, half the time, turning his back and deftly uses his stellar post moves to score.

What? No Oberto? He may have a role worth mentioning this year.

Solid D, I didn't say the quote you put to me. Bill made that assessment.

I didn't put Oberto into my center comparison because he's not a center; he's a forward.

[nbascribe]

If Nazr gets ten boards on a consistent basis in Detroit...I'll be shocked.

Heck Rashweed may go postal on him if he doesn't!! lol

[easjer]

Interesting read, but the arguments themselves have inherent fallacies, I think, as FWD has ably pointed out.

[FromWayDowntown]

If Nazr gets ten boards on a consistent basis in Detroit...I'll be shocked.

Heck Rashweed may go postal on him if he doesn't!! lol

Even if he got 10 boards a night in Detroit, that wouldn't make him a Ben Wallace type. What makes Ben Wallace such a fantastic defender is his athleticism and ability to competently guard most spots on the floor, his ability to defend the rim as an on-the-ball defender and as a rotating helper, as well as his ability to rebound. Nazr would struggle to defend a chair in the middle of the lane in a one-on-one situation; the first time someone runs a 1-5 pick and roll at the Pistons and Nazr is two steps slow on his show, or when the Pistons can't comfortably switch any pick-and-roll play involving the center, it will be quite evident that he's not a Ben Wallace type.

[nbascribe]

It's not complete gang.

This is the first article of three that was written on the team.

So don't jump to any big conclusions. We had to break things up or else the piece would have been a "War and Peace" type thing. Not good for a sports website.

I think the second installment is going to be good too. Guard play and expectations from Tony, Manu, etc.

[FromWayDowntown]

It's not complete gang.

This is the first article of three that was written on the team.

So don't jump to any big conclusions. We had to break things up or else the piece would have been a "War and Peace" type thing. Not good for a sports website.

I think the second installment is going to be good too. Guard play and expectations from Tony, Manu, etc.

That may be, but unless Bill's intending to come back and say that he was joking about his points in this installment, I'm not sure he has much credibility(at least with me) on any of the points he makes. Most of his assertions in this piece are laughable to me -- it seems as if he hasn't watched the Spurs since 2005.

[Solid D]

Solid D, I didn't say the quote you put to me. Bill made that assessment.

I didn't put Oberto into my center comparison because he's not a center; he's a forward.

Oops, I see that now, G-Moore. I apologize profusely for that. I guess that was why I was surprised, it didn't sound like something that would come out' your mouth.

When Oberto is out there, Timmy is the 5...and Oberto PF, or at least that's the way it's gone so far this preseason. 4s and 5s are fairly interchangeable for the Spurs. Oberto is most def' a 4 unless the Spurs go small, and he gives Tim a breather... then he plays the 5.

[nbascribe]

Even if he got 10 boards a night in Detroit, that wouldn't make him a Ben Wallace type. What makes Ben Wallace such a fantastic defender is his athleticism and ability to competently guard most spots on the floor, his ability to defend the rim as an on-the-ball defender and as a rotating helper, as well as his ability to rebound. Nazr would struggle to defend a chair in the middle of the lane in a one-on-one situation; the first time someone runs a 1-5 pick and roll at the Pistons and Nazr is two steps slow on his show, or when the Pistons can't comfortably switch any pick-and-roll play involving the center, it will be quite evident that he's not a Ben Wallace type.

I think what they want is just someone who can rebound. Nobody is going to be able to replace what Wallace could do for that team. It's almost like my Rasho reference to Big Dave.....sometimes the replacement just isn't the same thing.

Nazr needs to find that drive to play and stop being complacent. He had such a dramatic fall off from two seasons ago when he got here last season.

It's 95% mental by the time you're a pro but that 5% athleticism and talent still takes 100% effort to continue to be a top player in the league. Nazr is like third tier right now.

[nbascribe]

That may be, but unless Bill's intending to come back and say that he was joking about his points in this installment, I'm not sure he has much credibility(at least with me) on any of the points he makes. Most of his assertions in this piece are laughable to me -- it seems as if he hasn't watched the Spurs since 2005.

FWD Bill has seen plenty of Spurs games. The reason why I'm coming on board is to actually relieve him of some pressure. He was covering three teams last season and that was with help.

He's not going to be a homer on the Spurs (that's my job!!).

Plus you gotta realize we were focusing more on the center spot and acquisitions in the off season, not a current roster player.

The assertions that we got nothing out of the five spot were very accurate. That was a weak position for this team last year.

Solid D, I think you'll see more guys playing their 'natural' positions this season. With Butler and Elson, the Spurs can swap centers. If Tim goes to the five spot, I'd look more for Bonner and Williams THEN Oberto unless Tim is out of the mix.

I think it's important that the team compliment Tim at the big positions as much as possible and if you have a guy who can play a traditional center role and let Tim work his usual game, things are just that much better for the wing players and spacing on the floor.

[FromWayDowntown]

I think what they want is just someone who can rebound. Nobody is going to be able to replace what Wallace could do for that team.

That may be so -- my point was to respond to Mr. Ingram's assertion that Nazr is a "Ben Wallace type." I think that characterization is laughable.

Nazr might prove to be useful player for the Pistons, who seem likely to push pace a bit more and worry less about locking teams down for 48 minutes, but he'll never be a Ben Wallace type.

[FromWayDowntown]

FWD Bill has seen plenty of Spurs games. The reason why I'm coming on board is to actually relieve him of some pressure. He was covering three teams last season and that was with help.

He's not going to be a homer on the Spurs (that's my job!!).

I'm not criticizing him for not being a Spurs homer. I'm criticizing him for apparently not having a clue in assessing the Spurs' situation.


Plus you gotta realize we were focusing more on the center spot and acquisitions in the off season, not a current roster player.

I'm absolutely sure I don't know what this means. It seems like the point of the column is to debate whether the Spurs are better or worse off for having lost Rasho and Nazr and replaced them with Elson and Butler -- which would be a discussion about both acquisitions in the off season and the current player roster. That notwithstanding, the argument that keeping either Nazr or Rasho was ever a point of emphasis for the Spurs in the off-season is completely incorrect. And the notion that the Spurs are worse off for having gotten rid of both of those guys is a curious one to me, particularly in light of what went on in the 2006 playoffs, when neither contributed much of anything.


The assertions that we got nothing out of the five spot were very accurate. That was a weak position for this team last year.

Sure it was. If it was a weak position last year though and the Spurs got nothing out of it, how on Earth can they have taken a step backwards by getting rid of two guys who did nothing? Are Elson, Oberto, and Butler going to do less than nothing? For crissakes, if one of those guys can play even 10 minutes a night in a playoff series against a quality opponent, the Spurs are leagues better off than they were last year.

[nbascribe]

FWD....the question was asked did the loss of Rasho and Nazr hurt the Spurs; not that it did.

We're agreeing on a lot of things, you and me.

The bottom line from my point of the article was that I think that the Spurs made an upgrade with Butler and Elson. Bill isn't putting much stock into a rookie coming off the bench last year being a capable player for a 'championship caliber' team this season and that a bench player from Denver may not be much better than Rasho.

It's the old "inside looking out"/"outside looking in" debate structure...I'm on the inside and he's on the outside....lol

[SequSpur]

The Spurs have no Center to date. Just an FYI.

[ploto]

I think that for the regular season, the Spurs from the perspective of the non- Duncan center position - by itself- did take a step back.

People say that Oberto did not get a chance last year- but if Nazr and Rasho were so awful, then why didn't he? You have to admit that no matter what the reasons- rookie, adjustment,...- that Oberto did not show enough last season to move above the #5 big man spot on the Spurs. Moving him to a starter is by most measures at least initially seen as a step back from those who started and played AHEAD of him even in their worst season with the team. I don't think that most went into the off-season with the idea that the Spurs best chances were to promote Oberto to starter.

As for the article, people have pointed out some incorrect info already.

I will have to disagree with one statement- I would not say that Rasho gave up. He still worked as hard as always and had the same team-first attitude he always did. I think that he knew- as did most who watched the Spurs this season- that in a play-off series with Dallas that he would hardly see the floor. It may not be fun or enjoyable, but he knew. Now, if the Spurs had gotten to Miami and faced Shaq, it would have been a different story. I think that for him it really came down to the feeling that the Spurs had little use for him. He said himself after the trade that when the team does not see that you can fill a role for them, they do not play you and they trade you. The West changed and the role for Rasho diminished.

I think that this article left out what I consider the MAIN factor with regards to the Spurs center position- Tim Duncan. Success depends on Duncan playing center ALOT - with Oberto and Horry at PF. I really don't expect to see Elson on the floor in the play-offs anymore than Nazr and Rasho. It's not like he can guard Dirk either.

[Supergirl]

The Pistons found themselves another Ben Wallace type who didn’t cost nearly as much as Ben would have. All Nazr has to do is grow his hair out and make the most of his opportunity.

it was at this point that I stopped taking anything these guys had to say seriously.

Nazr even in the same league as Ben Wallace? What's that they're smoking again? Com on. Ben Wallace is a good defender, good rebounder, and has good hands. NAzr is a crummy defender, but provides decent offense and rebounding, provided he doesn't have to touch the ball too much, because then he'll turn it over.

I did like the point about Rasho liking to play from the same spots as Duncan, and therefore not always meshing well with TD on the floor.

All of them miss the fundamental point - Rasho and Nazr are slow and less athletic, therefore useless against the style of game the NBA is encouraging, against teams like PHoenix and Dallas, Detroit under Flip. Elson, Oberto, Bonner, and Butler are all more athletic and fast than Rasho and Nazr, so we're already in better shape. Who plays and who gets the starting spot will depend on injuries and who fits in with the rest of the team. At this point I'm betting on Oberto and Elson, but Butler could take over by midseason. Bonner will play an Horry-like role and come in off the bench to stretch the defense, which should help Horry be fresher if nothing else.

[ploto]

Elson, Oberto, Bonner, and Butler are all more athletic and fast than Rasho and Nazr, so we're already in better shape.
I have never seen the words Oberto and athletic used together-- nor Butler and fast.

[diego]

I have never seen the words Oberto and athletic used together-- nor Butler and fast.

and that right there tells you how slow rasho is, although nazr does have more of an argument.

i think if nazr had rasho's brain or rasho nazr's body (minus the limited coordination!) then we'd be fine, but both couldnt play at the same time and that god damn dallas small ball killed us. In that sense I would have preferred Pop try to impose instead of adapt, but i think we all agree we couldnt adapt because we didnt have the players. Horry didnt bring us anything last year, and Oberto did ok but fouled himself out of playing time and the other team to the line. Im an argie homer and i think oberto will be much improved his second season and it looks like pop is giving him a chance so who knows, we always have the chance at a midseason trade

Of course on paper nazr and rasho are better more accomplished players than oberto, elson and butler. But that doesnt mean they cant make more valuable contributions to the team. and hell we got bonner and a nice expiring contract for rasho, more shooters is never a bad thing on this team!

[samikeyp]

You're still 10X better, Greg. Good job.

P.S. Watch your back with that guy.

[timvp]

Bill Ingram is a scrub who knows nothing about the NBA. Rocket fans don't even take him seriously.

[101A]

... during the 2005 season and helped the Spurs win their second NBA title.

Nit picking, but THIRD.

[ploto]

I agree that Oberto will improve- I just don't see him or any of the additions being able to address the shortcomings that needed to be addressed. The Spurs need rebounding and NONE of them are even good rebounders. None of those guys are going to be any more capable of guarding Dirk and preventing small ball. The Spurs needed to get younger and more athletic- but they swapped Rasho and Nazr for Oberto and Elson-- about the same average age. While Elson has speed for a big man- that is about it- he does not have the speed to cover a perimeter playing PF. Oberto has neither speed nor athleticism. And if your plans are for Bonner to handle Dirk, well then keep wishing.

I understand the decision to make a change, but I keep reading how people think these changes will help. I just dont. I see it more as change made for the sake of change but not going to produce improvement.

[ChumpDumper]

I see it as being possibly just as crappy a center rotation as before, but at half the price.

[timvp]

The Spurs need rebounding and NONE of them are even good rebounders.

Butler and Oberto are both much better rebounders than Rasho. Elson is a bad rebounder for his size and he's even better at rebounding the ball than Rasho. If you are saying the Spurs will miss Nazr's rebounding, then you may have point.


I understand the decision to make a change, but I keep reading how people think these changes will help. I just dont. I see it more as change made for the sake of change but not going to produce improvement.

The reason for the change was because Rasho and Nazr were both way overpaid. That's the number one reason. Rasho is going to make $7.3 million this year. That is outrageous. Basically the Spurs have Elson, Oberto and Butler for what Rasho would make this year.

I know you are a big Rasho fan but I don't think even you could justify Rasho on this team for over $7M.

[Solid D]

^ Welp, that just about nets it out.

[Obstructed_View]

Popovich decided to go small when his team got run out of the gym in Game 2 and in the first half of Game 3.
Let's stop right there. All but one of the Spurs played like shit in game 2 and the one guy who showed up got into foul trouble early. Pop decided that he was John Wooden and needed to try to beat an inferior team at their own game which put the Spurs in a position to try to win back a series on the road with a hand tied behind their back. To their credit, they almost pulled it off, but it was a stupid, stupid decision. Game 2 was an aberration and the Spurs turned their back on the success they'd had over the previous 90 games because of it?

If the Spurs are going to have their centers on the bench when the playoffs come around, I'd much rather have the less expensive Butler and Elson there so the Spurs can either pay the guys who will be logging the minutes or can decide to release certain useless players that have a guaranteed contract and no trade value or hope of backing up TP in meaningful games.


The reason for the change was because Rasho and Nazr were both way overpaid. That's the number one reason. Rasho is going to make $7.3 million this year. That is outrageous. Basically the Spurs have Elson, Oberto and Butler for what Rasho would make this year.

I know you are a big Rasho fan but I don't think even you could justify Rasho on this team for over $7M.

Amen.

[SenorSpur]

At 30 years old, it's a long shot to think Elson will be able to raise his game. As far as Oberto is concerned, he's somewhat of a wild card. Since Butler will likely not play much this season, it is vital that the Spurs get steady production from Elson and Oberto. Nothing less than 8 pts and 7 rebs will be acceptable from whoever plays this position.

[SenorSpur]

Let's stop right there. All but one of the Spurs played like shit in game 2 and the one guy who showed up got into foul trouble early. Pop decided that he was John Wooden and needed to try to beat an inferior team at their own game which put the Spurs in a position to try to win back a series on the road with a hand tied behind their back. To their credit, they almost pulled it off, but it was a stupid, stupid decision. Game 2 was an aberration and the Spurs turned their back on the success they'd had over the previous 90 games because of it?

Amen.

We'll never know how the series would have turned out if Pop has stayed with his traditional lineup. After all, Miami did and look how they fared against the Mavs. OF course, they had much better rebounding than the Spurs.

[ploto]

I think though that there is one aspect people have not considered--

the possible effects of a regular season in which I believe that Tim will be more worn down due to the players the Spurs have signed. Tim will be required- in my opinion- to take on more of the primary defensive assignments in the regular season in order for the Spurs to win. Also, Tim's best defense is his help defense and he gets alot of his blocks from the weak side- but what will happen when some big guy goes off on Oberto and Elson? Will Tim be forced to cover those players that he has never been called upon to cover? Pop has talked many times about the luxury of not having to use Tim in that way- for physical purposes and the avoidance of foul trouble- obviously first with David and then even with Rasho. And how does that impact his rebounding as well if he spends more time covering the shooting big man?

People keep acting as if Rasho and Nazr did nothing so getting rid of them somehow means nothing. But they did contribute to the winningest season in Spurs history. There are things they did during the regular season and even agianst Sacramento that contributed to the team's success. There are specific games in which they made important contributions and ways in which they set up the play-off run.

As for your points LJ, I said that I understand the Spurs choosing to make a change- but that does not mean that I have to think that the particular changes they made will make the team better. I simply do not. And I am not so sure that you do either.

[SenorSpur]

Good points. No way Tim is going to guard traditional 5's like Yao, Dampier and Shaq. In fact, I don't know that the Spurs have anyone on their roster to guard guys these players on a consistent basis.

[wildbill2u]

"but I think a bigger issue was that Rasho’s game is basically identical to Tim Duncan’s on the offensive end. He likes to operate in the same space, taking mid-range jumpers and playing the middle of the paint rather than the back-to-the-basket style of a traditional NBA center. We saw that he was quite effective when Duncan was out with injuries – less so when he was playing alongside Tim. Rasho was not asked to do very much in the Spurs’ offensive set, and he’s one of those players who needs a few touches to get himself involved in the game."

The logical implication of the above is that Tim makes the players around him at the center position worse--and that may be true.

there's no question that the team is built around Tim and his game. If another player has the same type of game, he has to defer to Tim and back off.

[leemajors]

Let's stop right there. All but one of the Spurs played like shit in game 2 and the one guy who showed up got into foul trouble early. Pop decided that he was John Wooden and needed to try to beat an inferior team at their own game which put the Spurs in a position to try to win back a series on the road with a hand tied behind their back. To their credit, they almost pulled it off, but it was a stupid, stupid decision. Game 2 was an aberration and the Spurs turned their back on the success they'd had over the previous 90 games because of it?

If the Spurs are going to have their centers on the bench when the playoffs come around, I'd much rather have the less expensive Butler and Elson there so the Spurs can either pay the guys who will be logging the minutes or can decide to release certain useless players that have a guaranteed contract and no trade value or hope of backing up TP in meaningful games.



Amen.

pop was smart enough to see that keeping rasho and nazr in there would get the spurs burned again and again, and made the necesssary moves to stay in the series. it would have been over in 5 or 6 forcing the issue and keeping them in there. i don't know why you can't understand that. as timvp said, evolve or die.

[Obstructed_View]

pop was smart enough to see that keeping rasho and nazr in there would get the spurs burned again and again, and made the necesssary moves to stay in the series. it would have been over in 5 or 6 forcing the issue and keeping them in there. i don't know why you can't understand that. as timvp said, evolve or die.
Evolve or die? I hate to inform you, but the Spurs died, and they died from getting burned again and again on the inside because there were no shot blockers. Pop wouldn't even put one of them in the game when Horry and Duncan were in foul trouble, which should tell you something. It would have been over in 4 if not for the heart of the players that were actually allowed to play. Smallball was stupid and it allowed an inferior team to squeak past the Spurs. I repeat: If the Mavericks were the better team, they would have been the higher seed, and benching the entire center rotation for the balance of the series made Dallas look like they could compete, which they barely did due to the Spurs' inability to stop layups and dunks.

If you are going to evolve, you are supposed to do it during the regular season so your team has a chance to get used to it. Making a fundamental change to a 63 win team just because you think you need to act like a coach is completely stupid. Besides, evolution implies small changes. What the Spurs did is closer to implosion.

[diego]

Ploto, we most certainly havent improved, on paper, in the defense and rebounding department, and if we plan to stick to the same game plan it will put that load all on duncan. but we may have improved offensively. bonner may not be able to guard dirk, but he is able to shoot threes over josh howard. likewise, elson may not rotate as well as rasho, but he can beat the other team down for an easy two points. oberto is not going to rebound as much as nazr, but he will catch the ball on cuts to the basket, etc.

i think the spurs have realized that with the new rules the funnel to the baseline D is just going to send the other team to the line and that it will be more important to get offense from their frontcourt than defense. and personally, i would have rather the rules didnt change so we could stick to the roster and gameplan that worked so well for us. but it is obvious that the new rules undermine rasho's strengths the most (at least the ones highlighted in the spurs system), and in nazr's case it seems he just doesnt have the iq and coordination to contribute what pop wanted of him.

[leemajors]

Evolve or die? I hate to inform you, but the Spurs died, and they died from getting burned again and again on the inside because there were no shot blockers. Pop wouldn't even put one of them in the game when Horry and Duncan were in foul trouble, which should tell you something. It would have been over in 4 if not for the heart of the players that were actually allowed to play. Smallball was stupid and it allowed an inferior team to squeak past the Spurs. I repeat: If the Mavericks were the better team, they would have been the higher seed, and benching the entire center rotation for the balance of the series made Dallas look like they could compete, which they barely did due to the Spurs' inability to stop layups and dunks.

If you are going to evolve, you are supposed to do it during the regular season so your team has a chance to get used to it. Making a fundamental change to a 63 win team just because you think you need to act like a coach is completely stupid. Besides, evolution implies small changes. What the Spurs did is closer to implosion.

you can repeat it all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that rasho and nazr were not gonna produce and playing them gave the mavs more signifigant matchup advantages. the mavs were the better, more athletic team in that particular series and that is why they won. i do agree with your point in the second paragraph about getting used to that sort of change in the regular season but that simply did not happen. if rasho or nazr had shown anything production-wise in those first two games i'm sure pop wouldn't have gone small, but they stunk up the joint. nazr is not a shot blocker, and one of the big men would have had to been on the perimeter anyway, unless you want duncan fouling out in the first half trying to guard dirk or howard full time.

[Bruno]

Tim will be required- in my opinion- to take on more of the primary defensive assignments in the regular season in order for the Spurs to win.

Now look at other teams : when they have a dominant big, it's almost always a PF and not a C. Rasho is a true C who is too slow to defend on PFs. I'm not sure that Elson will be a worse defender than Rasho against PFs.

[ploto]

Now look at other teams : when they have a dominant big, it's almost always a PF and not a C. Rasho is a true C who is too slow to defend on PFs. I'm not sure that Elson will be a worse defender than Rasho against PFs.
Rasho did a much better than expected job on Bosh, Howard, and KG last season. I truly don't think Elson can guard them as well as Rasho did- nor can Oberto- so who?

[ploto]

In general I think there is a natural tendency to look at what a player is lacking and get all excited when a new player possesses that quality-- all the while forgetting the positives that the other player did have and admitting that the new one does not have them. When Nazr came people already hated that Rasho did not dunk. So, once Nazr threw down a couple of dunks, he was proclaimed as so much better than Rasho for this one aspect of his game. Nobody seemed to care that he could not understand the defense or learn the plays on offense- all they cared was that he dunk.

I see the same thing now. People got all excited because Elson actually got a ball under the basket- bobbled it- but did not turn it over. So he is proclaimed as so superior to Nazr because he has better hands than him. Well, even Malik had better hands than Nazr. People forget that Nazr's rebounding was good and that Elson's is not as good; they just focus on the one area of improvement.

Similarly, people get all excited because Elson is faster than Rasho. Well, if the criteria for excitement was finding someone faster than Rasho, then the Spurs chances of success this off-season were pretty much 100%- especially since the retirement of Greg Ostertag. But while Elson may be faster, he is not as good of a defender- or shot blocker- and from what I have seen his understanding of screen setting rivals that of Nazr.

My point- in the process of heralding all the improvements, don't forget what has been lost- and there are losses that go with changing players. It's not like the team found someone as smart and as good of a defender as Rasho AND fast.

Different does not necessarily equal better. Now you can debate that the differences will lead to more success in this system and this age of the NBA if that is your belief, and that argument has its merits, but it is not ridiculous for someone to believe that these changes could be simply different-- and not necessarily better.

[Solid D]

Miami had personnel matchups who could defend Dallas, particularly Dirk, better. Haslem & Walker are physical, mobile bigs and Haslem, in particular, did a nice job in bodying-up on Dirk on the perimeter or wherever Dirk went.

The Spurs were a break, here or there, short of moving on in the playoffs, so I guess we will see how these new, "value" players mesh and match up.

I still think Oberto will have a more prominent role this year at the 4/5.

[FromWayDowntown]

Using Miami as a basis to say that the Spurs should have stayed big is ridiculous.

The Spurs didn't have a center like Shaq or Alonzo Mourning last year. To the extent that they did, that guy was Tim Duncan. And when Duncan plays that role, the Spurs absolutely didn't have another big who could play the game as athletically as Udonis Haslem, which is why I believe Pop made the right decision to play the best group he could cobble together. Obstructed View and others can believe all they wish that Rasho and Nazr would have been shot-blocking forces for the Spurs at the rim and would have changed the game with rebounding. But the functional truth in the moment was that the only way those guys would have been playing at the rim like that was if they were assigned to defend Diop/Dampier with Timmy left to defend either Dirk or another Maverick wing. That would have been a horrendous state of affairs for the Spurs. It worked initially in Game 1, but only because AJ played Adrian Griffin -- a wing player that Tim could guard without risking foul trouble. Once AJ made the lineup change, Game 2 and the first half of Game 3 made it rather apparent that the Spurs had to rethink how they were going to matchup from a personnel standpoint. Pop did what he had to and it damned near worked. Maybe if he had done it earlier in Game 3, the Spurs would have survived.

[nbascribe]

I'm not going to say whether he knows basketball or not. He offered me the opportunity to write for a national site/magazine and I'm running with it.

Nobody really is an expert in this field. If that were the case, any one of us would be sitting in Bristol or in New Jersey on the NBA TV set.

Bill and I know the same people in Dallas and in other parts and those individuals I trust because they trust him.

Stay tuned for part two when it comes out.

gm

[Obstructed_View]

Using Miami as a basis to say that the Spurs should have stayed big is ridiculous.
I used the fact that the Spurs lost as a basis to say that the Spurs should have stayed big. All I get in response is a prediction that Dirk would have scored fifty points a game on Timmy. Instead we had the guards scoring fifty points a game on Timmy, which he may have done once in his entire career. You don't have to be a dominant shot blocker to stop the layup line that the Mavericks enjoyed, you just have to be tall and in the middle. I'd have preferred Rasho and Nazr being put in there and told to use up all twelve of their fouls preventing three point opportunities. Fouling them out gives you plenty of time to play small ball, without having to spot the Mavericks a fifteen to twenty point lead because they can't miss a fucking shot in the first half.

The only value the Miami series has is to show what happens when the Mavericks settle for jump shots instead of parading to the foul line for and-1 free throws.

[SenorSpur]

As was stated earlier by someone, the Spurs were a horrendously bad rebounding team last year - even with the regular contributions of Duncan and occasional help from Rasho and Nazr.

The Spurs consistently were outrebounded by more physical teams during stretches. Anyone remember the 3 early season blowouts to Detroit (twice) and Dallas? Then there were last second regular season defeats to inferior teams like Phi and Mil. In addition to poor defense, the Spurs were absolutely killed in the rebounding department in each of those games.

Befiore the playoffs started, I warned everyone on this forum about the Spurs season-long rebounding deficiencies and how that should be of a primary concern. We saw it first against the Sac Kings (Bonzi Wells and Abdur-Rahim), then against a team like the Mavs (Dirk, Dampier, Diop) - who ranked in the top 3 or 4 teams in the league during the regular season.

It's tough to put a team away when you're constantly giving them second-chance basket opportunities. I worry that defense and rebounding will again be an "achilles heel" for this team during the season - especially being an older team and with Pop utilizing more of a smaller lineup. It's clear this team will go as far as Duncan can carry them, but I fear he will have little help in the rebounding and shot-blocking area.

I don't see how inserting either Oberto or Elson into the lineup changes that for this season. In short, the Spurs got cheaper, not necessarily better.

[FromWayDowntown]

I used the fact that the Spurs lost as a basis to say that the Spurs should have stayed big. All I get in response is a prediction that Dirk would have scored fifty points a game on Timmy.

That's a load of crap, too. Dirk might have socred 50 in those games -- I doubt it -- but the bigger issue wasn't Dirk scoring points as much as it was Timmy getting rung up with fouls and: (1) ending up on the bench because of foul trouble; (2) ending up playing passively because of foul trouble; (3) ending up gassed from having to chase all over the floor; or (4) all of the above. Pop couldn't ask Tim to defend Dirk for 42-44 minutes every night --as great a defender as Timmy is, that's not his defensive game. Had Pop stayed big, it his choices were to run Timmy at Dirk, run one of Rasho/Nazr at Dirk, or put Bowen on Dirk and create a mismatch elsewhere on the floor. Given those options, how exactly was Pop supposed to keep Rasho or Nazr on the floor without seriously jeopardizing the Spurs' chances to win? Seriously.


Instead we had the guards scoring fifty points a game on Timmy, which he may have done once in his entire career. You don't have to be a dominant shot blocker to stop the layup line that the Mavericks enjoyed, you just have to be tall and in the middle.

If only it were that easy. If you put a tall guy in the rotation to just stnad there and be tall, again, you're sending your best rebounder out on the floor and asking him to take on a defensive mismatch while working him down to the point that he likely wouldn't have been as effective offensively. Do you really think that would have been a good idea?


I'd have preferred Rasho and Nazr being put in there and told to use up all twelve of their fouls preventing three point opportunities. Fouling them out gives you plenty of time to play small ball, without having to spot the Mavericks a fifteen to twenty point lead because they can't miss a fucking shot in the first half.

Great. And where are you going to get offense when they're in foul trouble along with Tim Duncan?

[Obstructed_View]

but the bigger issue wasn't Dirk scoring points as much as it was Timmy getting rung up with fouls
Which he was.

and: (1) ending up on the bench because of foul trouble;
Which he did.

(2) ending up playing passively because of foul trouble;
Remember that lame charge he tried to draw against Dirk one on one?

(3) ending up gassed from having to chase all over the floor;
Having to rely on Horry and Finley as your shot blockers meant Timmy had to patrol the lane by himself, at least when Horry and Finley weren't screening him.

Pop couldn't ask Tim to defend Dirk for 42-44 minutes every night --as great a defender as Timmy is, that's not his defensive game. Yet he could ask Duncan to be the only offensive weapon and the only hope of stopping the entire Mavericks team when they got into the paint again and again and again. Tim Duncan is one of the top defenders in the league every single year. And oh by the way, he also has a teammate who is one of the top defenders in the league, so he wouldn't have been defending Dirk for nearly that long a stretch. Defense was not going to be the Spurs' weak point going into that series if they played it the way they knew it with the people that were on the team for that purpose. Dallas has had better offensive teams in the past, and the Suns from the previous year was even better, and the Spurs didn't scrap their defensive mentality, and they won. You can make stupid little jokes about what a terrible shot blocker Rasho was, but he was light years ahead of Horry or Finley, and he played good team defense. Funny that people that never appreciated it when it was there don't understand why the Spurs got burned so bad once it was gone.


Had Pop stayed big, it his choices were to run Timmy at Dirk, run one of Rasho/Nazr at Dirk, or put Bowen on Dirk and create a mismatch elsewhere on the floor. Given those options, how exactly was Pop supposed to keep Rasho or Nazr on the floor without seriously jeopardizing the Spurs' chances to win? Seriously.

All three of those options would have worked. All three of those options were better than ending up with Devin Harris and Jason Terry going past their defenders only to score on Horry and Finley for the entire game. Did it occur to you or to Popovich that all three of the above that you mentioned can be thrown at a team at different times which disrupts their offensive flow? That's what defensive minded teams do to good offensive players. Instead the Spurs allowed the Mavericks to play within their comfort level for the entire series because they trotted out a team that couldn't do what they were good at because they were too busy trying to make up for the handicap placed on them by their coaching staff.


If only it were that easy. If you put a tall guy in the rotation to just stnad there and be tall, again, you're sending your best rebounder out on the floor and asking him to take on a defensive mismatch while working him down to the point that he likely wouldn't have been as effective offensively. Do you really think that would have been a good idea?
Again, I only have years of success by the Spurs and 63 regular season wins to fall back on. When your philosophy is to funnel dribblers to the shot blockers and then you suddenly put your two worst defenders in there as shot blockers, I'm curious as to why you don't question if Pop had money on the fucking Mavericks. Duncan did more chasing in the paint and had more bad fouls because Rasho and Nazr weren't there.


Great. And where are you going to get offense when they're in foul trouble along with Tim Duncan?Tim Duncan was in foul trouble during the series. What are you saving Nazr and Rasho's fouls for? Can they use them on their new teams?