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boutons_
10-17-2006, 07:23 PM
Lower Deficit Sparks Debate Over Tax Cuts' Role

By Lori Montgomery
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 17, 2006; D01


With great fanfare, President Bush last week claimed credit for a striking reversal of fortune: New figures show the federal budget deficit shrinking by 40 percent over the past two years, a turnaround the president hopes will strengthen his push for further tax cuts.

Bush hailed the dwindling deficit as a direct result of "pro-growth economic policies," particularly huge tax cuts enacted during his first term. "Tax relief fuels economic growth. And growth -- when the economy grows, more tax revenues come to Washington. And that's what's happened," Bush said.

( thank you, dubya, you're a candidate for the Economics Nobel. You mastered Economics the way you've mastered ..... English :lol )

Economists said Bush was claiming credit where little is due. The economy has grown and tax receipts have risen at historic rates over the past two years, but the Bush tax cuts played a small role in that process, they said, and cost the Treasury more in lost taxes than it gained from the resulting economic stimulus.

"Federal revenue is lower today than it would have been without the tax cuts. There's really no dispute among economists about that," said Alan D. Viard, a former Bush White House economist now at the nonpartisan American Enterprise Institute. "It's logically possible" that a tax cut could spur sufficient economic growth to pay for itself, Viard said. "But there's no evidence that these tax cuts would come anywhere close to that."

Economists at the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office and in the Treasury Department have reached the same conclusion. An analysis of Treasury data prepared last month by the Congressional Research Service estimates that economic growth fueled by the cuts is likely to generate revenue worth about 7 percent of the total cost of the cuts, a broad package of rate reductions and tax credits that has returned an estimated $1.1 trillion to taxpayers since 2001.

Robert Carroll, deputy assistant Treasury secretary for tax analysis, said neither the president nor anyone else in the administration is claiming that tax cuts alone produced the unexpected surge in revenue. "As a matter of principle, we do not think tax cuts pay for themselves," Carroll said.

( I hear Grover Norquist put out a contract on this Carroll punk :lol )

But, he said, "we do think good tax policy can lead to important economic benefits. . . . The size of the tax base is larger than it would have been without the tax relief."

The subtleties of that argument have been lost on the campaign trail. With less than three weeks to go until the Nov. 7 election, Republicans are promoting the good fiscal news, eager to talk about something other than the House page scandal and mounting casualties in Iraq.

House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) claimed credit for "driving down the deficit" and accused Democrats of plotting to roll back the tax cuts if they win a majority in the House, a move Hastert said "would destroy jobs and hurt the economy." Bush, meanwhile, called on Congress to permanently extend the cuts, which are scheduled to expire by 2010, at an additional cost to the Treasury of $2.2 trillion by 2016, according to CBO estimates.

Democrats criticized the president for celebrating a deficit that still ranks among "the largest in our nation's history," as House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi of California put it. And they pointed to CBO projections that the deficit will rise again next year and balloon in coming decades as 78 million retiring baby boomers make claims on Social Security and Medicare.

"The truth is that the administration's fiscal policies have failed," said Sen. Kent Conrad (N.D.), the senior Democrat on the Senate Budget Committee. "They have not benefited most Americans. They have dramatically worsened our long-term budget outlook. And they are putting our fundamental economic security at risk."

Without question, the deficit is receding. Despite spending swollen by storm cleanup on the Gulf Coast and the war in Iraq, the deficit fell to $248 billion in the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30, down from a record $413 billion in 2004, as higher tax receipts poured into the government's coffers.

If growth induced by Bush's cuts doesn't explain the surge, where did all those extra tax dollars come from?

The short answer is spectacularly high corporate profits and the advancing fortunes of wealthy Americans, economists said.

( enriching and protecting the super-rich and corps, the only reason the Repugs wanted to win office )

Skyrocketing profits caused corporate tax receipts to jump 27 percent, to $354 billion, in 2006, the largest increase in any tax category. "After three years of strong profits, corporate tax receipts as a share of [the economy] are at levels not seen since the late 1970s," the CBO said in its August budget report.

Meanwhile, individual income tax receipts rose 12 percent, to more than $1 trillion, largely on the strength of higher salaries, bonuses and non-wage income from stock market gains, a subcategory that climbed by 20 percent, according to CBO estimates.

Why those earnings are increasing so rapidly is, at the moment, a bit of a mystery, economists said, noting that details of individual tax returns will not be available for analysis until 2008. A robust economy and a strong stock market deserve the bulk of the credit, the economists said, but tax collections are growing far faster than the economy as a whole, so those factors cannot completely explain the Treasury's good fortune or suggest how long it might last.

As recently as March, the CBO was projecting a 2006 deficit of $371 billion, despite a strong economic outlook. And administration officials in February predicted that Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath would help push the 2006 deficit to $423 billion, the largest ever in nominal dollar terms. The record is held by the 2004 deficit, though that budget gap was smaller than some deficits of the 1980s when measured against the size of the economy.

"The money flowed in in a way that no one expected," said Douglas Holtz-Eakin, a former Bush White House economist who retired last year as CBO director. "Good economic growth is not the surprise. The surprise is that profits as a whole are so much higher."

Over the past decade, the budget deficit has tracked the economy with seeming indifference to federal tax policy, shrinking during good times and swelling during downturns. The Treasury last saw a huge influx of unexpected revenue in the 1990s, after the Clinton administration and a Democratic Congress raised taxes.

In 2000, the economy was booming and the budget was in surplus when Bush campaigned for president on a promise to cut taxes. The nation then slid into a recession soon after he took office, a downturn exacerbated by the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the cost of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and big job losses. Tax revenue plunged, spending rose, and the budget swung into deficit.

The White House successfully pushed tax cuts in 2001 and 2003, partly as remedies for an ailing economy. At the same time, the Federal Reserve slashed interest rates to four-decade lows to spur consumer spending. The economy gradually gained steam, growing at a faster-than-average pace of more than 3 percent in 2004 and 2005. The housing market took off, corporate profits surged, the stock market rebounded and many upper-income Americans pocketed big gains.

Holtz-Eakin and other economists said they can only speculate about why that economic growth generated a disproportionate jump in revenue. There have been changes in the tax code, such as the 2004 expiration of a tax that allowed businesses to immediately deduct half the value of new assets. Economists said corporations chastened by recent accounting scandals may also be paying more taxes on more of their income. And with large and growing incomes going to chief executives, athletes, entertainers, and even star lawyers and academics, those people are paying more taxes.

"The simplest way to think about it, I think, is we know we have growing income inequality, especially at the top," said Isabel V. Sawhill, a Brookings Institution economist who worked for the Clinton administration. "The very rich are pulling away from the ordinary rich and the middle class. Those very rich people pay higher tax rates. When the distribution of income shifts upward, as it has in recent years, you get a revenue kicker from that."

Staff writer Nell Henderson contributed to this report.


© 2006 The Washington Post Company


======================

Ah, man, you mean the tax cuts were NOT for the good of all America but to enrich the super-rich and "starve the beast". I feel so betrayed.

Super-rich Crooky will certainly be in here to defend her martyred, over-taxed top 1%. :lol

Aggie Hoopsfan
10-18-2006, 12:27 PM
enriching and protecting the super-rich and corps, the only reason the Repugs wanted to win office

I'm just curious, and I want an answer from you on this. No partisan bullshit or trashing of Bush, etc....

Q: What do you think the Democrats do when they are office?

101A
10-18-2006, 12:39 PM
You bolded the term "Record Corporate Profits".

You do know that the top Corporate Tax Rate is 35%, same as an individual's?

Record profits = Record Taxes

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

RandomGuy
10-18-2006, 12:42 PM
I'm just curious, and I want an answer from you on this. No partisan bullshit or trashing of Bush, etc....

Q: What do you think the Democrats do when they are office?

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/debtfull.gif

Balance the budget.

ObiwanGinobili
10-18-2006, 12:46 PM
Oh the days of Surplus! How I miss you!

RandomGuy
10-18-2006, 12:48 PM
You bolded the term "Record Corporate Profits".

You do know that the top Corporate Tax Rate is 35%, same as an individual's?

Record profits = Record Taxes

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

I think what irks him, as it does me is that workers don't see much of that. Given how stagnant wages have been, I don't see why compensation can't reasonably follow corporations' ability to pay.

I know why it doesn't as the owners of the company demand to be paid first, but this is one example of where the free market breaks down and produces sub-optimal results for most people.

boutons_
10-18-2006, 12:49 PM
The Dem whores are just as for sale as the Repugs.

Nobody can speak for how the Dems will behave in the future, but these Repugs have astonished serious observers in how unserious these Repugs have been about actually governing, running the machinery of government well, even to make it more efficient. From day one, top to bottom, these WH Repugs have been nothign but "all politics, all the time", the tipoff being a pure scumbug political animal like Rove with no Exec experience being put in charge of Exec branch policy as well as the WH political dossier.

Clinton was extremely popular for his political/personal skills and the fucking POLICIES that his Exec branch implemented, esp
paying DOWN the national debt,
his environmental policies were extremely popular,
his FEMA was extremely well managed and effective,
his diplomatic team got NK to agree to stop making plutonium,
etc, etc.

The Clinton Exec actually respected and cared for the Exec branch as responsibility of the presidency. These Repugs, based on their well-known ideological hate for govt, have shown no respect for govt.

Nobody has the impression that dubya/dickhead are actually involved in directing the machinery of government. For the Reugs, the federal govt is Golden Goose to be abused and farmed for govt contracts to Repug campaign contributors.

And let's NOT ever forget that the Repug unseriousity from Jan - Sep 2001, their dismissal of the chatter and security warnings in Jul/Aug 2001, their total inaction on NatSec and Al-Quaida in that period absolutely allowed the 9/11 attack to occur unimpeded.

101A
10-18-2006, 01:07 PM
I think what irks him, as it does me is that workers don't see much of that. Given how stagnant wages have been, I don't see why compensation can't reasonably follow corporations' ability to pay.

I know why it doesn't as the owners of the company demand to be paid first, but this is one example of where the free market breaks down and produces sub-optimal results for most people.

Profits = noone's "Pay" Not the owners or anyone. If its profit, it's still there.

Why are wages staying low? Competition for the jobs. It is against human nature to pay more for something when you can get the equivalent thing for less. It's not just the owners of companies who practice this. Why do you think Wal-Mart is doing so damned well?

Rebuilding the world after WWII, the interstate expansion, etc..has given Americans a false sense of what historic upward mobility is. COLA's beyond well beyond inflation, middle class income for lower class jobs are all remnants of a historical economic abberation. Ultimately the free market spawned the idea of communism for a reason. People thought there HAS to be a better way than this. Unfortunately, noone has come up with one yet.

People are self-interested, and can't see much beyond there personal self-interest. It's why "rich" people overwhelmingly favor Republicans, and people on food-stamps almost exclusively vote for Democrats, isn't it? It's not that everybody who believes in lowering the top marginal rate is in it, or that everybody who thinks the government ought to receive more revenue than it does is receiveing assistance - people vote, spend, hire, fire and pay in the way that best helps THEMSELVES.

101A
10-18-2006, 01:09 PM
his diplomatic team got NK to agree to stop making plutonium,
etc, etc.



Because KJI is so trustworthy.

His administration gave NK the reactors it needed to enrich the plutonium they are now trying to build a bomb with. Surprise, Surprise, they didn't keep their word.

RandomGuy
10-19-2006, 08:55 AM
People are self-interested, and can't see much beyond there personal self-interest. It's why "rich" people overwhelmingly favor Republicans, and people on food-stamps almost exclusively vote for Democrats, isn't it? It's not that everybody who believes in lowering the top marginal rate is in it, or that everybody who thinks the government ought to receive more revenue than it does is receiveing assistance - people vote, spend, hire, fire and pay in the way that best helps THEMSELVES.

...and in the process lose the moral duty to help each other?

I understand self-interest, but I don't buy the argument that we have to give up morality for "the greater good" of the "free market".

101A
10-19-2006, 09:39 AM
...and in the process lose the moral duty to help each other?

I understand self-interest, but I don't buy the argument that we have to give up morality for "the greater good" of the "free market".

No, they never lose the moral duty; they just can't often see beyond their own interest.

We ought not give up moralty; and I don't argue the "goodness" of the free market! The free market, simply, in my view, is the most effective economic tool at encouraging Human Beings to be productive (and there is not a close 2nd place). Depends on your definition of goodness, I guess.

RandomGuy
10-19-2006, 12:00 PM
No, they never lose the moral duty; they just can't often see beyond their own interest.

We ought not give up moralty; and I don't argue the "goodness" of the free market! The free market, simply, in my view, is the most effective economic tool at encouraging Human Beings to be productive (and there is not a close 2nd place). Depends on your definition of goodness, I guess.


I agree. We ought not to give up morality.

BUT

We are giving up morality. One has to be alarmed about the hyper-individualism that has started to pervade political thinking in the US. "Me first" thinking that abdicates all duty to society. The social darwinism that drives the conservative war on the poor disgusts me.

101A
10-19-2006, 02:46 PM
I agree. We ought not to give up morality.

BUT

We are giving up morality. One has to be alarmed about the hyper-individualism that has started to pervade political thinking in the US. "Me first" thinking that abdicates all duty to society. The social darwinism that drives the conservative war on the poor disgusts me.


I would suggest the war on the poor is more effectively being waged from the Left. It is since LBJ's famous war on poverty that mobility out of poverty has slowed to a near crawl.

Your using too much of the left-speak for conservatism, and assuming it to be true. I no more want to see a Les-Misables- esque poverty class with no safety net than I want to see Taliban at every street corner. Nor do I want a society which encourages its poor to stay that way by paying them to do it. BTW; raising the minimum wage will not get more people out of this dilemna, but may, in fact, increase the number in it.

I don't want a large poverty class, but my intentions or desires are not going to help shrink it; nor are yours. I would suspect that at least 95% of this country would agree with that. We need to look at what works (not what we THINK will work or SOUNDS like it might work), to come up with a plan to attack the issue.

Unfortunatley, the discussion is filled with rhetoric like "Welfare Mother" and "Bush hates poor people" and "Bigot" and "Bleeding Heart" etc..etc..

101A
10-19-2006, 02:49 PM
"Me first"

I'm afraid that is hard-wired. It always has been.

My best poli-sci professor defined conservatives as people who understood this, and liberals who wished it wasn't so.

"Self-Interest" is reality.

"Common Good" is a fantasy.

If a political or economic philosophy fails to recognize and even exploit this, it will fail.

xrayzebra
10-19-2006, 02:51 PM
Hey I have a suggestion for all those that are against tax cuts. Why don't you
just send extra money every week/month/year in to the feds/state/county/city
and tell them you just don't feel like you are doing your part and want to give
them more. And leave the rest of us alone. Okay?

xrayzebra
10-19-2006, 02:58 PM
I agree. We ought not to give up morality.

BUT

We are giving up morality. One has to be alarmed about the hyper-individualism that has started to pervade political thinking in the US. "Me first" thinking that abdicates all duty to society. The social darwinism that drives the conservative war on the poor disgusts me.

What a crock. Individualism is what made this country. Income tax didn't
even come about except in my lifetime. I was a youngster and still
remember the arguments over it.

SOC taxes were 1 percent when I first started paying them, how much
are they now? Now how much is your Medicare taxes. Scary isn't it?

How many ways you want to be taxed. Well check out phone bills, water
bills, every damn utility (necessities of life) and see how much you paying
in "fees" (taxes). Like sewage fees, what a damn joke. And the one
great one storm water fees. Holy smokes. We pray for rain and then
pay a fee for runoff......

And you think people are not paying enough.

101A
10-19-2006, 03:10 PM
What a crock. Individualism is what made this country. Income tax didn't
even come about except in my lifetime. I was a youngster and still
remember the arguments over it.

SOC taxes were 1 percent when I first started paying them, how much
are they now? Now how much is your Medicare taxes. Scary isn't it?

How many ways you want to be taxed. Well check out phone bills, water
bills, every damn utility (necessities of life) and see how much you paying
in "fees" (taxes). Like sewage fees, what a damn joke. And the one
great one storm water fees. Holy smokes. We pray for rain and then
pay a fee for runoff......

And you think people are not paying enough.

You're over 90??!!!

:wow

xrayzebra
10-19-2006, 04:22 PM
^^Not hardly, and I stand corrected. I too know how to google. I remember my
Father and other men arguing about Roosevelt wanting to tax income at 10 percent
and if I remember correctly, no one much paid an income tax at the time. Hell, no
one made much over a thousand dollars a year. In 1950 I was making less than
3000 a year. The first time I broke 10,000 was in the 70's. So what I am saying is
that income tax was something most didn't pay.

RandomGuy
10-19-2006, 04:58 PM
What a crock. Individualism is what made this country. Income tax didn't
even come about except in my lifetime. I was a youngster and still
remember the arguments over it.

SOC taxes were 1 percent when I first started paying them, how much
are they now? Now how much is your Medicare taxes. Scary isn't it?

How many ways you want to be taxed. Well check out phone bills, water
bills, every damn utility (necessities of life) and see how much you paying
in "fees" (taxes). Like sewage fees, what a damn joke. And the one
great one storm water fees. Holy smokes. We pray for rain and then
pay a fee for runoff......

And you think people are not paying enough.

I'm not talking about individualism. I am talking about it's extreme form. Hence the prefix "HYPER".

Complex economies aren't cheap. If you don't like paying taxes move to Somalia. They pay less than .4% of their annual incomes in taxes, if memory serves.

RandomGuy
10-19-2006, 04:59 PM
Hey I have a suggestion for all those that are against tax cuts. Why don't you
just send extra money every week/month/year in to the feds/state/county/city
and tell them you just don't feel like you are doing your part and want to give
them more. And leave the rest of us alone. Okay?


This is exactly what I am talking about. This isn't individualism, it is hyper-individualism.

You don't feel any duty whatsoever to anybody else but your own materialistic self. :greedy

boutons_
10-19-2006, 05:02 PM
XZ's position is Bowling Alone. The bowling ball would have better smarts :lol

01Snake
10-19-2006, 05:15 PM
XZ's position is Bowling Alone. The bowling ball would have better smarts :lol

Wow! Looks like we have another Chris Rock on our hands.

johnsmith
10-19-2006, 05:17 PM
Wow! Looks like we have another Chris Rock on our hands.


No shit, that was fucking hilarious. "You're as dumb as a bowling ball, HAHAHAHAHAH".

xrayzebra
10-19-2006, 06:41 PM
So send your money in and quit bitching.

RandomGuy
10-20-2006, 09:26 AM
So send your money in and quit bitching.

I am not the one "bitching". I never really complain about taxes when I have to pay them. I wish it were otherwise, but I understand their function.

Serious question for you:

Just what DO you owe your fellow citizens? What is your perception of duty to others?