Ludden : Spurs shrug off blowout with starting five in tune

[Bruno]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA102006.01D.BKNspurs.bulls.gamer.359093d.html

Spurs shrug off blowout with starting five in tune

Web Posted: 10/20/2006 12:07 AM CDT
Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer

Oh, the joys of preseason basketball. With a little less than two weeks before the start of the season, the Spurs know this much about themselves: If they intend to win another championship, they'll probably need Tim Duncan, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili.
With the Spurs' starters playing only the first quarter, Chicago rolled to a 99-67 victory Thursday night at the AT&T Center. The only people fleeced worse were those among the 16,224 fans in attendance who paid to watch.

Coach Gregg Popovich gave the team's new additions and the players trying to make the roster most of the minutes in the second half. They helped generate 67 points, the second-fewest the Spurs have ever scored in a preseason game.

Aside from struggling to contain Chicago guard Ben Gordon, who scored 11 of his 19 points in the first quarter, the Spurs' starters looked like they have for much of the preseason. In 12 minutes of work, Tim Duncan scored 11 points (making 5 of 6 shots), grabbed four rebounds and rejected Bulls rookie Tyrus Thomas at the rim.

"The first five is fine," Popovich said. "They know what we want to do, and they're getting in shape.

"The first seven or eight guys know exactly what's going on, but we want to find out about eight, nine, 10 and 11 and how that's going to work for us over an 82-game schedule."

Melvin Sanders didn't play because Popovich wanted to take a longer look at the other five players with non-guaranteed contracts. He made his first three cuts after the game, waiving center Jared Reiner and swingmen Rich Melzer and Olu Famutimi.

The Spurs now have 17 players on their roster. They have to cut at least two more before the start of the season.

"We got a good look at some of the guys we might want to keep, or not keep," Popovich said, "so hopefully we got a little bit smarter."

Fabricio Oberto started at center for the fourth consecutive game and had five points, one rebound and a nifty pass to Parker for a reverse layup in eight minutes. Francisco Elson had nine rebounds in 24 minutes, which were nine rebounds more than he had in Saturday's game against Orlando.

While recognizing that Elson is still learning the system, Popovich likes the potential of the team's new 7-foot center.

"He's shown me some things I didn't think he had," Popovich said. "I think he can play one-on-one basketball. I think I can isolate him in certain situations with the right people. I'm not sure if he even believes that yet.

"He's got some really quick feet. He's got a great first step. I think a big, big dose of confidence and understanding the role might make him a much better player than people have seen in the past."

Elson, who had four turnovers Thursday, has yet to show much of his offensive skills. He hopes to use the final three exhibition games to get more acclimated to his new teammates.

"Pop has given me a lot of freedom to do some stuff," Elson said. "But right now I'm just trying to get comfortable playing and doing what I've got to do to make myself feel comfortable on the team.

"I can do that stuff in practice, but I have to carry it over into the game."

Injury update: Beno Udrih (sore right hamstring) and Eric Williams (bruised right Achilles' tendon) didn't play.

Popovich said Williams hopes to play Saturday against Miami. He said Udrih, who has been out the entire preseason, could be cleared for contact early next week.

"He has to pass a fitness test first before he can play," Popovich said.

Notebook: Parker's free-throw shooting has improved enough that he took a technical foul shot in the first quarter even though Ginobili was on the floor. Parker made the free throw, making him 15 for 15 in the preseason. ... The only time the Spurs scored fewer points in a preseason game was when they lost 83-64 to Houston on Oct. 25, 2003.

[ATX Spur]

I don't think I've ever seen or heard of Tony taking a technical before.

[Solid D]

"He's got some really quick feet. He's got a great first step. I think a big, big dose of confidence and understanding the role might make him a much better player than people have seen in the past."

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2005/local/03/16/noon/bob.gif

[Bruno]

I don't think I've ever seen or heard of Tony taking a technical before.

Parker's goal is to be a 80% FT shooter this year. If he reaches his goal, he will be the best FT shooter in the starting lineup. Maybe he will become Spurs technical FT shooter when Finley isn't on the floor.

[timvp]

Melzer being in the first wave of cuts is pretty surprising. As I said after summer league, I didn't think he was an NBA athlete. That said, I was hoping that the Spurs had found their Long Three. Guess not. :depressed

Out of Melvin Sanders, Jamar Smith and Charles Lee, I'm really hoping for Lee now. He looks like a guy who can play both guard spots and plays with a good pace. He's never going to be a great player but with the lack of point guards on this team and two-guards around the league getting smaller, he'd be a nice addition.

Smith would be decent but I just don't think he has the offensive game to last in the league. Unless he's tearing up practice, I just don't understand how he's lasted this far. He could be the Long Three defensively and he can rebound pretty well, but this guy makes Linton Johnson III look like LeBron James offensively.

As far as Sanders goes, he's just isn't an NBA player. He's been around the Spurs' system for a while now and I just don't see it. At best he could be a Bruce Bowen type player minus like five inches.

[timvp]

"He's shown me some things I didn't think he had," Popovich said. "I think he can play one-on-one basketball. I think I can isolate him in certain situations with the right people.

Are you freakin' serious Pop? Isolate him? Have you watched him play anytime over the last five years?


I'm not sure if he even believes that yet.

I don't think his mom believes it.


"He's got some really quick feet. He's got a great first step.

He's pretty quick but I don't think the world has witnessed him taking a first step toward anything.


I think a big, big dose of confidence and understanding the role might make him a much better player than people have seen in the past."

You might want to add in a few more "bigs" in there. Big doses of confidence, talent and basketball skills may do the trick.

I really hope you are right Pop but I have a feeling that in two years if I bump this thread, thate will go down as the funniest quote in Spurs history.

[Solid D]

1. Duncan
2. Parker
3. Ginobili
4. Bowen
5. Oberto
6. Finley
7. Horry
8. Barry
9. Elson
10. Udrih
11. Bonner
12. Butler
13. E. Williams
14. Vaughn

The trade winds, they may be a stirrin' up, again.

[timvp]

Parker's goal is to be a 80% FT shooter this year. If he reaches his goal, he will be the best FT shooter in the starting lineup. Maybe he will become Spurs technical FT shooter when Finley isn't on the floor.

Most of Parker's problem at the line in the past has been lack of concentration. He just doesn't stay focused at the line during the regular season. He shoots them like he doesn't really care.

That's why when it comes to the playoffs and late in games, he's usually much better. If he concentrates at the line this year, there's no reason he should shoot 82-85%.

[Bruno]

Even if I think that Elson will be a solid role player, I'm quite surprised with what Pop said. Maybe he thinks that he can be quite good against slow centers like Rasho or maybe Pop has drunk too much wine.

[Solid D]

If Pop plans on teachng-up Elson on his isolation idea, Elson will need to improve his jumper.

[timvp]

Even if I think that Elson will be a solid role player, I'm quite surprised with what Pop said. Maybe he thinks that he can be quite good against slow centers like Rasho or maybe Pop has drunk too much wine.

:lol Ran through my mind.

Perhaps he was saying it sarcastically. Kinda like the time he said "other than Shaq, I don't know any other center I'd rather have than Rasho." Two weeks later, Spurs trade for Nazr :rollin

[TMTTRIO]

I just hope our whole team works on free throws because they need it including Manu because he sucked last year.

[timvp]

If Pop plans on teachng-up Elson on his isolation idea, the Spurs will need to equip the AT&T Center with vomit bags.

That was just uncalled for, Solid D.

:fro

[Bruno]

I guess that Spurs main offense now will be 5-down. :spin

[Solid D]

I changed your quote, Solid D :downspin: .

:fro

[Solid D]

I just hope our whole team works on free throws because they need it including Manu because he sucked last year.

Manu dropped from 80% to 78% in the regular season but he shot 84% in the playoffs last season. Not really too bad. 52-60 (.866) versus Dallas in the playoffs, including 12-13 in Game 6 and 9-9 in Game 7.

[PM5K]

Same ole same ole, the good teams couldn't care less about their preseason records and try to work who they want to keep on their bench for the season, while teams that aren't as good try to win as many as possible to up their confidence...

[ChumpDumper]

Smith would be decent but I just don't think he has the offensive game to last in the league. Unless he's tearing up practice, I just don't understand how he's lasted this far. He could be the Long Three defensively and he can rebound pretty well, but this guy makes Linton Johnson III look like LeBron James offensively.The thing I noticed about Smith last season in Austin is that he took direction well and filled whatever role Dennis Johnson assigned him. That might have carried over to the Spurs.

I don't know why anyone would think there is a death of point guards on this team. I count four if everyone is healthy. If I'm thinking a Udonis Haslem type is the kind of player that will help against Dirk, Jamar is as close as we have right now.

And don't look now, but LJ3 is averaging 12 and 7 in the preseason.

[timvp]

The thing I noticed about Smith last season in Austin is that he took direction well and filled whatever role Dennis Johnson assigned him. That might have carried over to the Spurs.

The thing I noticed about Smith last season is that there wasn't one Toros fan who was like hey, we have a guy over here who can help the Spurs.


I don't know why anyone would think there is a death of point guards on this team. I count four if everyone is healthy.

Uh yeah but let's see ... there is one good point guard, a point guard who is probably injuring himself as a type this, a point guard who is at most a third string point guard and a shooting guard who used to play point guard four years ago. Perhaps I should have said quality point guards.


If I'm thinking a Udonis Haslem type is the kind of player that will help against Dirk, Jamar is as close as we have right now.

Good thing we figured this out after losing to the Mavs :clap


And don't look now, but LJ3 is averaging 12 and 7 in the preseason.

Yeah, no kidding. I was saying earlier how Thorn stole the Spurs' Long Three.

[ChumpDumper]

The thing I noticed about Smith last season is that there wasn't one Toros fan who was like hey, we have a guy over here who can help the Spurs.It was me, although I was talking about Derrick Zimmerman.
Uh yeah but let's see ... there is one good point guard, a point guard who is probably injuring himself as a type this, a point guard who is at most a third string point guard and a shooting guard who used to play point guard four years ago. Perhaps I should have said quality point guards.Yeah, you should have. This team simply won't carry that many point guards. If you want to keep Lee, pray for a trade.
Good thing we figured this out after losing to the MavsBut the answer then was Rasho and Nazr, wasn't it?
Yeah, no kidding. I was saying earlier how Thorn stole the Spurs' Long Three.I have much more faith in Jamar's offensive potential than I ever did Linton's. If that means Smith is a Cliff Robinson replacement, so be it.

[timvp]

It was me, although I was talking about Derrick Zimmerman.

Jamar Smith must have really been tearing it up then . . .

Oh and you wanted Zimmerman even though the Spurs had four point guards on the roster. :madrun


Yeah, you should have. This team simply won't carry that many point guards.

Why not? The 15th spot on the roster won't play much anyways. Why not have an emergency point guard rather than a guy like Smith who would be lucky to play a dozen minutes in the season?


But the answer then was Rasho and Nazr, wasn't it?

I don't think I could be confused for a fan of that duo.


I have much more faith in Jamar's offensive potential than I ever did Linton's. If that means Smith is a Cliff Robinson replacement, so be it.

Smith can run and jump. That's about as advanced as he is right now.

And if he's the second-coming of Cliff Robinson, how come he wasn't mentioned once on the forum before the Spurs added him to the summer league roster despite playing just up the road?

[ChumpDumper]

Jamar Smith must have really been tearing it up then . . .He didn't play alot until Fizer got called up.
Oh and you wanted Zimmerman even though the Spurs had four point guards on the roster. I gave up on Beno early. I was hoping for a trade.
Why not? The 15th spot on the roster won't play much anyways. Why not have an emergency point guard rather than a guy like Smith who would be lucky to play a dozen minutes in the season?So Lee would play more? The stated need of this team is a long small forward. Between Lee and Smith, who come closer to fitting that role?
Smith can run and jump. That's about as advanced as he is right now.Somehow that was enough for the Spurs to keep him over Melzer.
And if he's the second-coming of Cliff Robinson, how come he wasn't mentioned once on the forum before the Spurs added him to the summer league roster despite playing just up the road?I said I thought he needed at least one more year in the D-League, but he could might be the kind of guy who could benefit from a season learning the system here on the IR. If you pimped Lee before summer league, props to you -- otherwise I simply think the point guard situation is a little better covered on this team than the long small forward situation. If you have a better solution for it going forward from here, I'm all ears.

[angel_luv]

The article said Beno has to pass a fitness test before he can be cleared for contact in practice.

What all does that involve? What does he have to be able to do?

[Kori Ellis]

The article said Beno has to pass a fitness test before he can be cleared for contact in practice.

What all does that involve? What does he have to be able to do?

I am assuming that they are talking about just a physical test that they will give him to make sure that he is really healed and will be able to do things that he needs to do in a game (run, pivot, stop quick, etc.)

I thought for a second that they were talking about the league-mandated conditioning test that's part of the physical all players have to take at the beginning of each season. I wasn't sure that he had taken it yet because he's been banged up.

[angel_luv]

That makes sense. Thanks. :)

[timvp]

He didn't play alot until Fizer got called up.

That's probably a bad sign right there.


I gave up on Beno early. I was hoping for a trade.

Good luck with that. The last team who supposedly had interest was Philadelphia, and they called the newspaper source and forced them to correct the mistake.


So Lee would play more? The stated need of this team is a long small forward. Between Lee and Smith, who come closer to fitting that role?

Just because he's a Long Three (more like a small four, though) doesn't mean that he should make the team. Melzer was more of a three than Smith was but that didn't help him.

Smith reminds me of a poor man's Noel Felix.


Somehow that was enough for the Spurs to keep him over Melzer.

Yeah and Stephen Graham was cut earlier than others last year and he ended up in the NBA. The Spurs' domestic scouting is pretty shaky.


I said I thought he needed at least one more year in the D-League, but he could might be the kind of guy who could benefit from a season learning the system here on the IR.

You said that after the Spurs signed him.


I simply think the point guard situation is a little better covered on this team than the long small forward situation.

The Spurs have won three championships without a Long Three. Not having a decent backup point guard has killed a couple seasons. In 2005 Beno was barely decent ... but that's better than being out with idontwanttoplayintrainingcampbecauseiwouldratherju stcashmycheck-itis.



If you have a better solution for it going forward from here, I'm all ears.


http://www.hoopsvibe.com/IMG/Devin_Brown-arton20887-240x240.jpg

[GrandeDavid]

Are you freakin' serious Pop? Isolate him? Have you watched him play anytime over the last five years?



I don't think his mom believes it.



He's pretty quick but I don't think the world has witnessed him taking a first step toward anything.



You might want to add in a few more "bigs" in there. Big doses of confidence, talent and basketball skills may do the trick.

I really hope you are right Pop but I have a feeling that in two years if I bump this thread, thate will go down as the funniest quote in Spurs history.

LJ, I'm not guaranteeing anything about a player I know next to nothing about, but have some faith! Let's see how this guy pans out in the regular season.

[boutons_]

I'm sure Pop knows he's trying to make silk purse from a pig's ear.
What other choice does he have?
He certainly has a pig's ear of player in Elson
Publicly believing and supporting Elson as ploy to increase his confidence can't hurt.
Pop knows the Spurs big men are really weak next to Duncan.

[Bruno]

Popovich said Williams hopes to play Saturday against Miami.

I'l really curious to see him. In the first game in France, he looks fat but he has done too some good things.
If he isn't done, he can really help spurs.

[Mr. Body]

Pop is embarrassed the Front Office screwed this up so badly. There's nothing that can be done about this team until next summer. Why not goad Elson into playing above his station? But the guy's a dog. A real dog. It was a bad pick-up. Pop knows it, and this stuff about getting him to play some new way is never going to work. Isolate him - - when we have three dominant offensive players already?

Isolate him on offense - because we realize he can't rebound and can't block shots?

I realize some chowderheads on this board, like MannyIsGod and that AggieHoops guy, were really big on Elson and were happy with the money we gave him, but I fail to see how we couldn't get Javtokas - a rebounder and shot-blocker, probably stronger on the post, a guy with the same full-court speed, and with a good attitude.

I will never get this. The guy is four years younger, too. And scoring? Javtokas just scored 11 points in a quarter the other day. Elson won't score 11 points in a game all year. A senseless, stupid mistake.

[Bruno]

Pop knows it, and this stuff about getting him to play some new way is never going to work. Isolate him - - when we have three dominant offensive players already?

Pop has said " I think I can isolate him in certain situations with the right people."
He hasn't said that isolate Elson will be a play that Spurs will use a lot.

Just an example of what Pop says :
A Spurs-Heat game. Shaq make a foul on a Manu pentration after 2 minutes. Spurs will run a play where Elson will be isolated against Shaq with the goal of drawing a second foul on Shaq. Even if Elson isn't a great offensive talent, he is quick enough to give some troubles to Shaq.



Isolate him on offense - because we realize he can't rebound and can't block shots?

Do you realize that what you says make no sense ?
You don't block shots when you are on offense and you don't grab defensive rebounds on offense.
Isolate Elson won't be a play often used, it has nothing to do with rebounding and shotblocking.




I will never get this. The guy is four years younger, too. And scoring? Javtokas just scored 11 points in a quarter the other day. Elson won't score 11 points in a game all year. A senseless, stupid mistake.

I take Elson 21 points / 11 rebounds game against Lakers last year over Javtokas 14 points / 6 rebounds game against Aris Salonica.

[z0sa]

alot of people on this board need to cry already and get it over with

[Mr. Body]

Elson looks like a poor pick-up.

Bruno - read again. Pop is trying to find good things to say about the guy. He picks his offensive potential (as if that's what we need) because he doesn't look to block shots or rebound much.

[Fabbs]

Melzer being in the first wave of cuts is pretty surprising. As I said after summer league, I didn't think he was an NBA athlete. That said, I was hoping that the Spurs had found their Long Three. Guess not. :depressed

Melzer played last night and was 2-3 and made his only trey.
Is he cut already?

[Kori Ellis]

I'l really curious to see him. In the first game in France, he looks fat but he has done too some good things.
If he isn't done, he can really help spurs.

I'm interested about Williams too. Yeah he looked fat, but if he can try to get even close to 2004 form, he'll be useful.

[ChumpDumper]

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/IMG/Devin_Brown-arton20887-240x240.jpg

Neither a point nor a long three. The only thing that will come of a Brown signing is a bunch of phone calls to game night react asking why he doesn't play. Thin the herd and maybe there would be a place for him.

[Bruno]

read again. Pop is trying to find good things to say about the guy. He picks his offensive potential (as if that's what we need) because he doesn't look to block shots or rebound much.

:lol
Pop is known to be a coach who tries to say good things about his players. Last week, he did a great job by going that with Beno.

[Bruno]

Melzer played last night and was 2-3 and made his only trey.
Is he cut already?

Yes, they cut him yesterday.
I think that Spurs won't keep a 15th player.

[Mr. Body]

:lol
Pop is known to be a coach who tries to say good things about his players. Last week, he did a great job by going that with Beno.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Yes, Elson is a person who good things can be said about. Same as Udrih. It still doesn't make up for the fact they got the wrong player.

[ChumpDumper]

Javtokas would be just as lost as this point. Anyone who thinks this team is going to fly out of the gate in preseason has a screw lose.

[Mr. Body]

It's not that they lost badly - it's realizing how weak this team is, after the Big Three. It's not like it materialized in my head all of a sudden that Elson was a sub-par player and that Javtokas should now be a Spur. (I detect a bout of "Javtokas is not that great" arguments - that's not the point, he has better tools than Elson does.)

All summer we were waiting for the F.O. to add some youth, athleticism, and talent to the bench. It never happened. Why are we suddenly supposed to be happy about it? They recognize what most of us do at this point - this team is geriatric and has tons of holes, and they didn't get the job done in the offseason.

[ChumpDumper]

How much did you want to give Javtokas?

What did you want to do be done with the rest of the money?

[Mr. Body]

How much did you want to give Javtokas?

What did you want to do be done with the rest of the money?

Same as they gave Elson. He probably could have been had for less. The posters that have claimed he would have been more expensive, in my opinion, are making shit up.

The F.O. boxed themselves into a corner with the relatively expensive Oberto contract, for a player who doesn't produce much, and did the same exact thing a year later with Elson. Neither player can be traded, at least Javtokas would have attracted some attention as a cheap shot blocker, if he didn't work here.

After the brilliant drafts of Manu and Parker, this Front Office has barely lived up to its reputation. The Finley and Barry pick-ups were decent, but the last several years has been barren of young, athletic talent.

[Bruno]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Let me explain this point more clearely.

You've said :

Pop is trying to find good things to say about the guy.

Pop isn't the kind of coach who "try to find good things to say". Just look at what he said to Udrih one week ago : "we have to move on and look at other people because we can't count on him because he's so injury-prone.”

Most of the time, the simplest explication is the right one : Pop has said that Elson offensive upside was better than what people think just because that is what he thinks.

[ChumpDumper]

Same as they gave Elson.:lmao

If he was the Greek league MVP so far, I might agree.

[Mr. Body]

Bruno, fine. I never said Elson didn't have untapped offensive capabilities. My take was: who cares? We don't need offense from him. We need strong defense, good rebounding, and shot-blocking. None of which he does exceptionally well, or even average.

Don't expect big applause for this idea that we can spend lots of time this season developing Elson's offensive repertoire. How many lost possessions does that equal?

[Solid D]

Having a quick first step for a big man is great, but if the opposing Big drops off and basically gives the jumpshot away...then that quick first step doesn't figure-in unless he has can be a threat from at least 12-15 feet.

[Bruno]

Having a quick first step for a big man is great, but if the opposing Big drops off and basically gives the jumpshot away...then that quick first step doesn't figure-in unless he has can be a threat from at least 12-15 feet.

Elson was 52/111 (46.8%) for 16ft - 24ft jumpshots last season

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Irs funny that some people have given up on Elson after 3 preseason games but want to bring back a guy who got cut from a crappy team coz they think he can stop Dirk :lol :drunk

Elson will get better when he knows the system, its the same with most players

As a starter last year he doubled his ppg and rpg but only played an extra 11mpg when starting.

He wont be a star this season but he will be solid and reliable, thats all the Spurs need from that position, isnt it?

[T Park]

Irs funny that some people have given up on Elson after 3 preseason games but want to bring back a guy who got cut from a crappy team coz they think he can stop Dirk

Elson will get better when he knows the system, its the same with most players

As a starter last year he doubled his ppg and rpg but only played an extra 11mpg when starting.

He wont be a star this season but he will be solid and reliable, thats all the Spurs need from that position, isnt it?



Im sure TIMVP or others will shout you down, and tell you how absolutely pathetic and horrible he is and how they should have brought in an undersized power forward who grabs nuts, or a buzz cut lithuanian who looked pahtetic in the world championships.

[Kori Ellis]

6 and 6 from whoever is the starting center and 5 and 5 from whoever is the backup, while playing decent D. That's all they Spurs will really need and I think they can get it.

[Extra Stout]

It's not that they lost badly - it's realizing how weak this team is, after the Big Three. It's not like it materialized in my head all of a sudden that Elson was a sub-par player and that Javtokas should now be a Spur. (I detect a bout of "Javtokas is not that great" arguments - that's not the point, he has better tools than Elson does.)

All summer we were waiting for the F.O. to add some youth, athleticism, and talent to the bench. It never happened. Why are we suddenly supposed to be happy about it? They recognize what most of us do at this point - this team is geriatric and has tons of holes, and they didn't get the job done in the offseason.
I get the irritation at the thin, old lineup behind the big 3 -- but seriously, Javtokas sucks too. You're mistaking the 21-year-old RJ who could jump out of the gym, with the surgically-reconstructed 26-year-old RJ who is a serviceable Euro player.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Im sure TIMVP or others will shout you down, and tell you how absolutely pathetic and horrible he is and how they should have brought in an undersized power forward who grabs nuts, or a buzz cut lithuanian who looked pahtetic in the world championships.

Unless they have watched have the Nuggets for the the last 3 seasons then they have no grounds
:fro

Elson is a solid big man who does what is asked. Ive never seen him play alot of games at 30mpg but if that happened in San Antonio then i know he would perform

His main stats last season in games where he played 30 mpg+ were 9.1ppg and 7.8rpg.