Pat Tillman's brother writes about U.S. Leadership (lack thereof)

[PixelPusher]

After Pat’s Birthday (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/)

Posted on Oct 19, 2006

By Kevin Tillman

Editor’s note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005, has written a powerful, must-read document.

It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we get out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.

Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.


Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,

Kevin Tillman

...nuff said.

[clambake]

HOLY SHIT!!! Did he lay it out for autopsy or what.

Bush has stained the Tillmans.

[PixelPusher]

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Of all of the above quotes, this one comes from personal experience. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/22/AR2005052200865.html)

[clambake]

I couldn't pull up "personal experience"

This thread is compelling. It should have received more attention. A dose of reality that too many here are afraid to acknowledge.

Thanks Pixel.

[PixelPusher]

I couldn't pull up "personal experience"


it was a link to an article about how the military lied about his death for PR purposes.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/22/AR2005052200865.html(hope this link works)

that's just one of many out there.

[clambake]

I say "GIVE THIS THREAD LIFE".

Thanks Bush. A scar on the face of American Heros.

Soak it in.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

A very articulate and thoughtful letter, I didnt expect that at all.

[ChumpDumper]

A whole day without a neoconbot response? These guys are slipping. I guess they are waiting for some blogger to tell them how to handle this one.

[boutons_]

Kevin Tillman may end up in Guantanamo.

A laundry list of why these mofo's MUST be voted out of office, and/or dubya/dickhead impeached.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm pretty sure that even the bloggers don't know how to rebut that piece. Pretty tough to question the patriotism of a Tillman. Kevin Tillman has been on the front lines of the war on terror, a battle for which he volunteered after 9/11. With that being the case, the boilerplate venom for those who question the Administration seems to be quite inapt here.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Tillman owns. That was quite a compelling read and thanks for posting it Pixel. This should be turned into a short commercial to get his message heard more.



In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity

[clambake]

This is the most sensible description ever written about this administration.

Beware this thread republicans.

[jochhejaam]

I'm pretty sure that even the bloggers don't know how to rebut that piece. Pretty tough to question the patriotism of a Tillman. Kevin Tillman has been on the front lines of the war on terror, a battle for which he volunteered after 9/11.
Since enlisting is voluntary I'm not sure why you deem it necessary to point out that Tillman volunteered, and it's pretty tough to question the patriotism of all of our men and women in the mililtary.


I appreciate and respect the many differing sentiments of all of those who put their lives on the line on a daily basis and I have no desire to rebut any of them.

[clambake]

What this letter says, Joch, is this administration has destroyed the true meaning of being an American.

[judaspriestess]

here is the other story: Pat Tillmans brother Kevin speaks out against War

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2633793

this has not been posted on freerepublic either. my how sheltered those retards truly are.

[Clandestino]

just as war makes people do and say things they normally wouldn't, so does losing a family member..

[FromWayDowntown]

Ah! So, Kevin Tillman has taken leave of his senses -- he couldn't possibly have meant any of this.

Got it.

[ducks]

HOLY SHIT!!! Did he lay it out for autopsy or what.

Bush has stained the Tillmans.
bush caused tillman's brother to sign up :ihit

[ducks]

:ihit
here is the other story: Pat Tillmans brother Kevin speaks out against War

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2633793

this has not been posted on freerepublic either. my how sheltered those retards truly are.


I suppose he would say that since his brother died
but I wonder what he would say if his brother died in the towers in new york on american soil

[PixelPusher]

:ihit


I suppose he would say that since his brother died
but I wonder what he would say if his brother died in the towers in new york on american soil

9/11 was why they joined in the first place. And if you read the responses of those who had family members who died in those towers, their responses are as varied and divided as the rest of America. Which reminds me...don't forward this article to Ann Coulter.

[clambake]

I understand all the silence from the right. Chasing your tail is futile, but, at least you get dizzy.

A punch in the face.

Now the right is looking at the Tillmans and wanting to label them as jaded, fallen heros. And to think, you rode their backs all the way to the front.

[01Snake]

What this letter says, Joch, is this administration has destroyed the true meaning of being an American.

Holy fuck you're an idiot. Yep, I now hang my head in shame as I am an American. I'm actually contemplating suicide as I type this. How can I still go on living now that Bush has destroyed the true meaning of being American?

Better yet, what IS the true meaning of being an American? Enlighten me Asshat.
:lol

[clambake]

Truth and Justice, snake.

Whether you want to keep on living is up to you.

I will try to talk you down..............don't jump..........we can help you.

[clambake]

PS. Hang your head. I am willing to forgive you.

[gtownspur]

You're right, Tillman's oppinion matters more than others who also have lost loved ones in the war.


Have fun circle jerking with this as much as you can.

[Nbadan]

All Those Lies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWEymBLObb8)

[01Snake]

PS. Hang your head. I am willing to forgive you.

Unlike you, and others, I'd never hang my head as an American.

[clambake]

I understand your pain, snake. The weight of truth from the Tillmans is crushing. Maybe they have worn out their usefullness for you. Who and what else would you like to bury?

[clambake]

Apologies to snake.

It took me thirty minutes to recognize that Nascar, wrestling, or Jerry Springer might not be on at this hour.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

You're right, Tillman's oppinion matters more than others who also have lost loved ones in the war.


Have fun circle jerking with this as much as you can.

(Un)luckily, Kevin Tillman has both served and lost a loved one.

[PixelPusher]

You're right, Tillman's oppinion matters more than others who also have lost loved ones in the war.


Have fun circle jerking with this as much as you can.

Don't worry your pretty little head about it. Just slap another yellow ribbon bumper sticker on your car and keep voting for the "tough talkin' guys".

Circle Jerk indeed.

[PixelPusher]

Better yet, what IS the true meaning of being an American? Enlighten me Asshat.
:lol

Perhaps a better question would be, what is it about being an American that makes you "proud"? I guessing our anwers will be very different.

[ChumpDumper]

The bots should have sat this one out.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

You're right, Tillman's oppinion matters more than others who also have lost loved ones in the war.


Have fun circle jerking with this as much as you can.

Oh, right, just like Dumbya's opinion matters more than others. Not much YOU can do but circle jerk. :rolleyes

[jochhejaam]

What this letter says, Joch, is this administration has destroyed the true meaning of being an American.
Thanks CB, I did understand the point of his letter. I was trying to make the point that each soldier has a unique, subjective take on the conflict, and it should be respected regardless of whether or not it's a view that I share (I think the views of most of us are evolving to some extent). Their current takes run the gauntlet from, bleeding Red, White and Blue, to wanting to hang our leadership from the nearest tree.
I have no arguement with the opinions of any of them who are putting their lives on the line, and I believe it's a disservice to them for someone else to exploit their story by hammering a political opponent with them.
Okay, great, you scored a point over him losing a brother. Way to commiserate.


(John 15: 13 - Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends)

[Clandestino]

this is his OPINION... many people who have served or are currently serving have totally opposite OPINIONS... the same goes for people who have lost loved ones. what makes his opinion carry more weight than others?

[01Snake]

I understand your pain, snake. The weight of truth from the Tillmans is crushing. Maybe they have worn out their usefullness for you. Who and what else would you like to bury?


I care about his take about as much as I do Cindy Sheehan's. Because he's a soilder, am I suppose to put more stock into what he has to say? You'll find soilders who are at odds with what Tillman thinks.

So what's your point?

[01Snake]

Perhaps a better question would be, what is it about being an American that makes you "proud"? I guessing our anwers will be very different.

Answering with asking a question. Where have we seen this before? :rolleyes

[turambar85]

this is his OPINION... many people who have served or are currently serving have totally opposite OPINIONS... the same goes for people who have lost loved ones. what makes his opinion carry more weight than others?

1. It matters because people on the right consistently say that anybody who says things such as that are not supporting the troops, and are treasonous liberal snakes. So, when you receive soldiers saying the same things your rhetoric has fully completed its circle to bite you in the ass. The question now is, which one will you allow to falter? Will you then say that it is ok to question the war, so that you can honor a soldier, or will you say that you only support the troops who support the war? The question is mine, but the answer is left in your hands.

2. His opinion may matter more because soldiers are, through years of hearing the same speeches, singing the same songs, and donning the same uniform, taught to believe that America is doing the right thing. It is so much easier to believe what you are told, so much easier to believe that the reason your friends and brothers are dying is right and just, that for someone to take this more difficult stance counts for a lot.

Patrick Tillmans memory, and his brothers words, will do more to silence the idiotic talk of treason and "anti-Americanism" by the right in regards to people saying ill about the war than anything I have seen thus far. It has found the unquenchable hypocrisy and lunacy in the claim that to doubt the war is to not support the troops. Have fun chewing on your own tail, but do not let it get you down too much, I have a feeling that a lot of people will be hacking hairballs after reading this article.

The rhetorical circle is complete.

[Clandestino]

it is one person's opinion... it doesn't change anything. and tillman is not the first soldier in history to ever challenge the government. this is nothing earth shattering...

[boutons_]

The positive opinions of those who served have to do, in my bet, with their own personal sacrifice and bona commitment, including being killed or maimed, physically and/or psychologically, done with courage and in good faith.

"instant history" indicates now and history will show, as it was in VN, all the US military contribution in Iraq is wasted.

Thanks to the US military for doing your job under murderously incompetent political leaders, but you knew (since you know history of VN) that was possibility when you signed up, didn't you?

[turambar85]

it is one person's opinion... it doesn't change anything. and tillman is not the first soldier in history to ever challenge the government. this is nothing earth shattering...

No, he is most assuredly not. And I suggest that you, and everybody else, see The Ground Truth. It is about 6-8 Iraq veterens who have come home and had a difficult time readjusting due to physical trauma or doubts over the war itself. They have knowingly shot and killed what ended up being civilians, and 1 from the group hung himself in his parents basement when he came home.

So, you are correct, it is not a 1-person thing. But this is something that is even worse for the cause. Many troops have come home and voiced their problems with this war, one from the film was even jailed for doing so.

But the difference is that the Tillmans are public figures in a way. Everybody knows about them, and you could probably even find them on wikipedia. They not only have a certain power about them to attract national media, but we all respect that family, we know them to be true patriots, not liberal-terrorist mouthpieces. They went because they wanted to fight for the country that they loved, not because they needed some spare cash for college or felt they had no future like a large percentage of recruits. They actually went down, and volunteered themselves, they weren't hammered by a recruiter. And now, one of these national patriots is voicing his problems with the war, and what is the right to do? His patriotism is unimpeachable, so how now (brown cow) do you go about continuing on your path of labeling all protestors treasonous liberal assholes?

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=turambar85]1. It matters because people on the right consistently say that anybody who says things such as that are not supporting the troops,

So, if people on the "right" weren't saying these things, it wouldn't matter?
Poor reasoning.

[Clandestino]

No, he is most assuredly not. And I suggest that you, and everybody else, see The Ground Truth. It is about 6-8 Iraq veterens who have come home and had a difficult time readjusting due to physical trauma or doubts over the war itself. They have knowingly shot and killed what ended up being civilians, and 1 from the group hung himself in his parents basement when he came home.

So, you are correct, it is not a 1-person thing. But this is something that is even worse for the cause. Many troops have come home and voiced their problems with this war, one from the film was even jailed for doing so.

But the difference is that the Tillmans are public figures in a way. Everybody knows about them, and you could probably even find them on wikipedia. They not only have a certain power about them to attract national media, but we all respect that family, we know them to be true patriots, not liberal-terrorist mouthpieces. They went because they wanted to fight for the country that they loved, not because they needed some spare cash for college or felt they had no future like a large percentage of recruits. They actually went down, and volunteered themselves, they weren't hammered by a recruiter. And now, one of these national patriots is voicing his problems with the war, and what is the right to do? His patriotism is unimpeachable, so how now (brown cow) do you go about continuing on your path of labeling all protestors treasonous liberal assholes?

the only one who we knew about was pat tillman... we had never even heard of the rest of the family until he died. so, honestly, they are just like the millions of others who have served. nothing makes their opinions hold any more weight.

wow, 6-8 iraqi veterans have had trouble adjusting? hundreds of thousands have served and you are talking about 6-8???

and just because he once volunteered doesn't mean shit... ALL SOLDIERS ARE VOLUNTEERS...and some decide later they don't like it and desert or voice their OPIONS.. regardless, his OPINION holds no more weight than anyone else.

[turambar85]

[QUOTE]

So, if people on the "right" weren't saying these things, it wouldn't matter?
Poor reasoning.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite see where you are going, or what you mean, with this post.

But I do know that you must be mistaken, that the only poor reasoning is the people who say that if you do not support the troops, which, to them means put a sticker on your car and never say anything ill about the war, that you support the terrorists. Well, what do these same people say when troops "don't support the troops"?

This, to me, is not about proving how wrong the Iraq war is, since this has been done by millions of people on multiple occasions, and the poor horse has long been dead, it is about eliminating the disgustingly foolish and naive rhetoric by some on the right in regards to being "anti-American."

[turambar85]

the only one who we knew about was pat tillman... we had never even heard of the rest of the family until he died. so, honestly, they are just like the millions of others who have served. nothing makes their opinions hold any more weight.

wow, 6-8 iraqi veterans have had trouble adjusting? hundreds of thousands have served and you are talking about 6-8???

and just because he once volunteered doesn't mean shit... ALL SOLDIERS ARE VOLUNTEERS...and some decide later they don't like it and desert or voice their OPIONS.. regardless, his OPINION holds no more weight than anyone else.

Actually, clandestino, there is a large difference in how Tillman and the average soldier joined the ranks of the elite. The common soldier is found at the mall by a military recruiter during a time of peace. He/she is told that the army will be a fun experience, a way to get out of the mundane, and that they will get thousands of dollars for school when they are done. They rarely think they might actually be sent into a terrible war-zone, or that they might die. Tillman, however, approached them and said that, after war was inevitable, that he would like to go fight for his country. That is infinitely more patriotic than doing it for cash or excitement, and that is why it is worth mentioning. His patriotism is unimpeachable.

He needed no money, his life was exciting, and he knew he was going to war and could die, but he did it anyway.

Now, the fact that 6-8 people were on the movie does not mean that only 6-8 people think this war is wrong. There are large groups/organizations of veterens against the war. The movie is just to see in order to understand what it is like for them. That is completely ignorant to try to dismiss it because of the number of people within the movie itself. I could, by that logic, watch a movie about a serial killer and assume that there is only 1 in the world, and that it is no problems whatsoever. Come on...

[clambake]

There is a strict regimen of what is hammered, daily, into the heads of our troops.

Too bad so many had to die before finding out the truth.

By the way, every right wing lie supporter knew everything about the Tillman's before they left to go fight, and you rode their backs all the way to the front. They were the poster child of this foolish endeavour. Now you pretend their honor is fleeting, and it doesn't mean anything anymore.

I guess they have worn out their usefullness for you. I guess it's time to throw them away.

[Clandestino]

honestly, i had never heard of pat tillman before he died..

[Clandestino]

Actually, clandestino, there is a large difference in how Tillman and the average soldier joined the ranks of the elite. The common soldier is found at the mall by a military recruiter during a time of peace. He/she is told that the army will be a fun experience, a way to get out of the mundane, and that they will get thousands of dollars for school when they are done. They rarely think they might actually be sent into a terrible war-zone, or that they might die. Tillman, however, approached them and said that, after war was inevitable, that he would like to go fight for his country. That is infinitely more patriotic than doing it for cash or excitement, and that is why it is worth mentioning. His patriotism is unimpeachable.

He needed no money, his life was exciting, and he knew he was going to war and could die, but he did it anyway.

Now, the fact that 6-8 people were on the movie does not mean that only 6-8 people think this war is wrong. There are large groups/organizations of veterens against the war. The movie is just to see in order to understand what it is like for them. That is completely ignorant to try to dismiss it because of the number of people within the movie itself. I could, by that logic, watch a movie about a serial killer and assume that there is only 1 in the world, and that it is no problems whatsoever. Come on...

oh really? at the mall? that is where most of our soldiers are found? where did you find that information? also, we have been in many wars lately. 91, 95, 98, etc... so, the part about never thinking they'd have to go to war is ridiculous.

on another note. i joined the military before my senior year of high school. i did it because i always wanted to be a soldier growing up. i didn't need money for school or a way out, etc... but that doesn't make me anymore heroic than the next guy. heroism is not based on why you joined the military. it also doesn't make my opinion carry any more weight than the next guy either

[PixelPusher]

Thanks CB, I did understand the point of his letter. I was trying to make the point that each soldier has a unique, subjective take on the conflict, and it should be respected regardless of whether or not it's a view that I share (I think the views of most of us are evolving to some extent). Their current takes run the gauntlet from, bleeding Red, White and Blue, to wanting to hang our leadership from the nearest tree.
I have no arguement with the opinions of any of them who are putting their lives on the line, and I believe it's a disservice to them for someone else to exploit their story by hammering a political opponent with them.
Okay, great, you scored a point over him losing a brother. Way to commiserate.
nope. It's more like he takes a way a point from those who sought to portray his brother's death as a heroic sacrifice by lying about how he died.

[turambar85]

oh really? at the mall? that is where most of our soldiers are found? where did you find that information? also, we have been in many wars lately. 91, 95, 98, etc... so, the part about never thinking they'd have to go to war is ridiculous.

on another note. i joined the military before my senior year of high school. i did it because i always wanted to be a soldier growing up. i didn't need money for school or a way out, etc... but that doesn't make me anymore heroic than the next guy. heroism is not based on why you joined the military. it also doesn't make my opinion carry any more weight than the next guy either

Lol, you have a very annoying habit of attempting to pick apart pieces of an argument that aren't actually to be taken literally. At the mall simply was used to say that they are approached in their daily lives, and talked into joining by a recruiter. Whether it is at school, at wal-mart, or at the mall is not relavent to the point, and you know that.

And no, not many soldiers believe they will go to war, and you know that as well. When a military recruiter approaches you they make it sound like the thought of going to war is obscene and that it will never happen. That you will spend your time in a U.S military base on U.S soil enjoying your free trip across the country. And I got this piece of information from me and my friend both having been approached by military recruiters. The telemarketers and dregs of our military.

[Clandestino]

i like how you didn't even respond to me saying i joined w/o needing money for school or a way out

[turambar85]

i like how you didn't even respond to me saying i joined w/o needing money for school or a way out

Ok, I will play your game then, Clandestino.

How many U.S soldiers are there, around 1 million? And you are how many people, i believe the number is a lonely 1. So how can your lone experience be of any relevance in determining the way that themajority of soldiers come about being inlisted?

Over 300,000 soldiers were recruited between October 05 and September 06, and over 20% of all military recruits come from the poorest 10% of the population. While that number is not as high as it used to be, or as high as I would have expected, it still shows a lack of proportion within the enlistment numbers. And I have also talked to military recruiters, and so have friends, and they consistently hammer out shit about how you get money and you get to travel and get away. 90% of their speech is about these amazing things you get, the other 10% is just discussing things about you personally. They never, ever mention anything about being shipped to an overseas combat zone and potentially dying. With 1,000,000 troops in our military, and the rarity of a major war using even a solid percentage of these troops, you just don't expect to actually go somewhere like Iraq.

[leemajors]

Lol, you have a very annoying habit of attempting to pick apart pieces of an argument that aren't actually to be taken literally. At the mall simply was used to say that they are approached in their daily lives, and talked into joining by a recruiter. Whether it is at school, at wal-mart, or at the mall is not relavent to the point, and you know that.

And no, not many soldiers believe they will go to war, and you know that as well. When a military recruiter approaches you they make it sound like the thought of going to war is obscene and that it will never happen. That you will spend your time in a U.S military base on U.S soil enjoying your free trip across the country. And I got this piece of information from me and my friend both having been approached by military recruiters. The telemarketers and dregs of our military.

military recruiters have been making the same pitch for thousands of years, yet you just now catch on. congrats! :toast

[01Snake]

Ok, I will play your game then, Clandestino.

How many U.S soldiers are there, around 1 million? And you are how many people, i believe the number is a lonely 1. So how can your lone experience be of any relevance in determining the way that themajority of soldiers come about being inlisted?



And how do you know the way the majority of soilders come about being listed? Are you quoting something as fact or are you talking out of your ass?

[Clandestino]

Ok, I will play your game then, Clandestino.

How many U.S soldiers are there, around 1 million? And you are how many people, i believe the number is a lonely 1. So how can your lone experience be of any relevance in determining the way that themajority of soldiers come about being inlisted?

Over 300,000 soldiers were recruited between October 05 and September 06, and over 20% of all military recruits come from the poorest 10% of the population. While that number is not as high as it used to be, or as high as I would have expected, it still shows a lack of proportion within the enlistment numbers. And I have also talked to military recruiters, and so have friends, and they consistently hammer out shit about how you get money and you get to travel and get away. 90% of their speech is about these amazing things you get, the other 10% is just discussing things about you personally. They never, ever mention anything about being shipped to an overseas combat zone and potentially dying. With 1,000,000 troops in our military, and the rarity of a major war using even a solid percentage of these troops, you just don't expect to actually go somewhere like Iraq.

i would say that if you join he MILITARY and never think about the possibilty of being called to war then you are just retarded.. a recruiter shouldn't have to tell someone, "oh, did you know that you are joining the military, our job is war." haha. wtf?

[clambake]

The reality of this letter is a club to the head. I feel for ya. Out in the middle of nowhere, people jumping ship because it's taking on water. Your numbers are dwindling as the truth unfolds.

Bush is not the most hated man on earth because its trendy. He has earned this distinction.

[01Snake]

The reality of this letter is a club to the head. I feel for ya. Out in the middle of nowhere, people jumping ship because it's taking on water. Your numbers are dwindling as the truth unfolds.

Bush is not the most hated man on earth because its trendy. He has earned this distinction.

It appears this story means more to you than anyone else. Guess what, I feel the same today about Iraq as I did last week.
:lol

[Zunni]

i would say that if you join he MILITARY and never think about the possibilty of being called to war then you are just retarded..
That's their target market. If young men and women knew what they were REALLY letting themselves in for, the pool of applicants would be cut by about 90%. They have to soft sell it.

[Clandestino]

The reality of this letter is a club to the head. I feel for ya. Out in the middle of nowhere, people jumping ship because it's taking on water. Your numbers are dwindling as the truth unfolds.

Bush is not the most hated man on earth because its trendy. He has earned this distinction.

more than osama? hussein? etc..

that, my friend, is why YOU ARE UN-AMERICAN

[01Snake]

more than osama? hussein? etc..

that, my friend, is why YOU ARE UN-AMERICAN


Can't you just picture the absolute rage some of these guys have here on this forum? I can just see them scanning web pag after web page looking for ANYTHING negative to say about Bush/Iraq. :wakeup

I love it! :lol

[01Snake]

That's their target market. If young men and women knew what they were REALLY letting themselves in for, the pool of applicants would be cut by about 90%. They have to soft sell it.

If you believe that, you really are an idiot. :lol

[Clandestino]

Can't you just picture the absolute rage some of these guys have here on this forum? I can just see them scanning web pag after web page looking for ANYTHING negative to say about Bush/Iraq. :wakeup

I love it! :lol

:lol that is funny...especially with that picture..

[Zunni]

Can't you just picture the absolute rage some of these guys have here on this forum? I can just see them scanning web pag after web page looking for ANYTHING negative to say about Bush/Iraq. :wakeup

I love it! :lol
You don't have to look very hard for that kind of material. Pretty much everything that Bush and the GOP have touched in the last 5.5 years has turned to shit.

[Clandestino]

you must have a hard life. i am surprised you didn't leave the u.s. when bush was re-elected. i remember all those people saying they would move, but didn't do anything.. just like everything else they do... all talk and no action..

[01Snake]

You don't have to look very hard for that kind of material. Pretty much everything that Bush and the GOP have touched in the last 5.5 years has turned to shit.

I don't know about you but things have been GREAT for me personally since Bush was elected. Sure there have been fuckups in Iraq but you can be perfect. I'm sure of Kerry or Gore were elected everything would be rosey. :lol

[01Snake]

you must have a hard life. i am surprised you didn't leave the u.s. when bush was re-elected. i remember all those people saying they would move, but didn't do anything.. just like everything else they do... all talk and no action..

Exactly! Blah..Blah..Blah. Tell Alec hi on the way outta the country. :spin

So where are the grand plans the Demo's have to "right the ship"? Oh wait, they don't have anything but "we won't do what Bush is doing/has done".

[clambake]

Worldwide, Bush is easily the most hated person alive.

Some people are slower to get it.

Then, others lack the courage to admit it when their wrong.

Don't worry, you'll end up being that Nixon dad of the future.

[Clandestino]

who do you hate more? bush or osama?

[ChumpDumper]

:lol The bots went into "you hate America mode." Does Tillman hate America?

[clambake]

Who said I hate? They both deserve capture.

[clambake]

Funny how they turn on their poster children.

Pat Tillman practically replaced "Uncle Sam needs you".

Well Pat, for some, you have worn out your welcome.

[Zunni]

Who said I hate? They both deserve capture.
...and prosecution.

[Zunni]

I don't know about you but things have been GREAT for me personally since Bush was elected. Sure there have been fuckups in Iraq but you can be perfect. I'm sure of Kerry or Gore were elected everything would be rosey. :lol
Typical GOP attitude. Things are good for me, so things must be good for everyone.

[clambake]

I don't think the GOP thinks its that anymore. It's more and more starting to resemble the Gestapo.

Beware Kevin Tillman.

[Clandestino]

Funny how they turn on their poster children.

Pat Tillman practically replaced "Uncle Sam needs you".

Well Pat, for some, you have worn out your welcome.

no one said anything about pat ... we're talking about kevin, who's opinion wouldn't even be an issue if he weren't the brother of pat, tillman...

it is kind of sad he is disgracing his brother like this... basically saying his brother died for nothing, when his brother died for something he believed in

[Clandestino]

Who said I hate? They both deserve capture.

putting bush in the same category as osama? wow, i am suprised you post on spurstalk and aljazeera

[clambake]

He died for something he was tricked into thinking.

[clambake]

Osama killed innocent Americans because he says we're evil.

Bush has killed innocent Iraqis because he said their evil.

[Clandestino]

He died for something he was tricked into thinking.

he wasn't tricked into thinking that killing terrorists was good for the world. that it what he was doing...

[Clandestino]

Osama killed innocent Americans because he says we're evil.

Bush has killed innocent Iraqis because he said their evil.

you truly should move out of the united states if you think bush is trying to kill innocent iraqis.. you really can't believe that...

osama goes after innocent easy targets... bush is trying to kill the osamas and make the world a safer place. the u.s. military doesn't just randomly kill innocent people. now, you are sounding anti-military too.

[clambake]

I think Kevin is a little more qualified than you when knowing what his brother would think.

But go ahead and smear them both. Thats what republicans do to those that refuse to embrace this criminal administration.

[Clandestino]

i'm not smearing either one of them... but i do know that pat VOLUNTEERED to fight terrorism. and he could have got out of the military at any time he wanted to.

[clambake]

"could have gotten out anytime he wanted to"?

hahahahahahaha

[clambake]

arrest or confinement to camps without recourse to law
eliminate who they want to consider their enemy
sabotage the truth to mask their reason to complete their intentions
propaganda to convince the weak of their "purity of actions"
using religion for purposes of propaganda
their actions and orders are not subject to judicial review for consequences
more of a "political police force"


GESTAPO.

[Clandestino]

"could have gotten out anytime he wanted to"?

hahahahahahaha

you can if you are like tillman... or anyone can if they say, come into a lot of money. there are many ways to get out of the military... do you remember riddick bowe? or whoever that boxer was...joined for like 3 days and got out..

[Clandestino]

arrest or confinement to camps without recourse to law
eliminate who they want to consider their enemy
sabotage the truth to mask their reason to complete their intentions
propaganda to convince the weak of their "purity of actions"
using religion for purposes of propaganda
their actions and orders are not subject to judicial review for consequences
more of a "political police force"


GESTAPO.

so why are you still here? because the gestapo won't allow you to leave?

[PixelPusher]

Answering with asking a question. Where have we seen this before? :rolleyes
I grew up proud that my nation was the champion for liberty, democracy and human rights, not just for ourselves, but for the rest of the world. This has been reduced to shallow sloganeering by our leaders who who don't see a need to practice what they preach.

I do not take any pride in this "my nation is richer/stronger than your nation" tribalist pissing contest that passes for "patriotism" in this country by chickenhawk warmongers these days.

[clambake]

I'll stay here and do whatever I can to cure the country of this GOP infection.

Read the letter again, Clandestino. It's the dawning of the discovery of truth.

or just devour another bowl of dogma, they know there are people out there.....people that will eat it.......eat their dogma.....people like you.......all you can eat.

[PixelPusher]

no one said anything about pat ... we're talking about kevin, who's opinion wouldn't even be an issue if he weren't the brother of pat, tillman...

it is kind of sad he is disgracing his brother like this... basically saying his brother died for nothing, when his brother died for something he believed in

"Disgrace" is lying to Pat Tillman's family about how he died in order to preserve their "poster hero" image of noble sacrifice. The irony is, it is a noble sacrice regardless of whether he died by enemy fire or not, but this ends up being emblematic of the bullshit narratives this administration insists on shoving down the publics throat.

You and Snake ask what's so special about this particular soldier's opinion. The reason we know about Pat Tillman is because your side made him famous; the NFL player who ended a lucrative career to fight for what he believes in. He was the ultimate symbol of American Patriotism. But your side pissed it all away with lies. Now his brother who fought along with him want to hold your side to account and you pretend he's "just another asshole with an opinion".

That disgraceful.

[Clandestino]

I'll stay here and do whatever I can to cure the country of this GOP infection.

Read the letter again, Clandestino. It's the dawning of the discovery of truth.

or just devour another bowl of dogma, they know there are people out there.....people that will eat it.......eat their dogma.....people like you.......all you can eat.

i have a feeling all you are really doing is bs'ing on message boards, maybe bitching at work, but that is probably it...

if not, what are you doing? what solutions do you propose?

btw. i am not a republican. i vote for the person. i voted for clinton and bush.

[Clandestino]

"Disgrace" is lying to Pat Tillman's family about how he died in order to preserve their "poster hero" image of noble sacrifice. The irony is, it is a noble sacrice regardless of whether he died by enemy fire or not, but this ends up being emblematic of the bullshit narratives this administration insists on shoving down the publics throat.

You and Snake ask what's so special about this particular soldier's opinion. The reason we know about Pat Tillman is because your side made him famous; the NFL player who ended a lucrative career to fight for what he believes in. He was the ultimate symbol of American Patriotism. But your side pissed it all away with lies. Now his brother who fought along with him want to hold your side to account and you pretend he's "just another asshole with an opinion".

That disgraceful.

right, either way he is still a hero...

however his brother's opinion carries no more weight than anyone else's.

[xrayzebra]

Clandestino and clambake. You are both dummies.
Your type is the norm for liberals and socialist. Accuse others of
what you do. You have no argument, just hate for
yourself, your country and others who do not agree with
you. Thank God we have people like Tillman who will
give their life for their country and beliefs. More than
you would ever think of doing.

[Clandestino]

Clandestino and clambake. You are both dummies.
Your type is the norm for liberals and socialist. Accuse others of
what you do. You have no argument, just hate for
yourself, your country and others who do not agree with
you. Thank God we have people like Tillman who will
give their life for their country and beliefs. More than
you would ever think of doing.

oh really? i have already served in the army and as a civilian in several different countries.

oh yeah, go fuck yourself for that comment.

[xrayzebra]

No thank you. That is your style. Big deal you served
so did I for many years in many countries. So I still
stand by my original statement about you. You are a
dummie.

[Clandestino]

No thank you. That is your style. Big deal you served
so did I for many years in many countries. So I still
stand by my original statement about you. You are a
dummie.

:rolleyes

[gtownspur]

:lol The bots went into "you hate America mode." Does Tillman hate America?


I was more into the "you're a big dumbass" mode, Tillman's letter doesn't change that.

[PixelPusher]

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

[gtownspur]

Thank God for the Tillman's letter, or else liberals would'nt have had a convincing argument.

Is that what it boils to...

one lone oppinion.

[PixelPusher]

Thank God for the Tillman's letter, or else liberals would'nt have had a convincing argument.

Is that what it boils to...

one lone oppinion.
It echos the opinions of many, indeed the majority of Americans. For more singular, "lone" opinions, you'll have to go to Dick Cheney, who still insist the Iraq war is "going remarkably well".

[ChumpDumper]

Thank God for the Tillman's letter, or else liberals would'nt have had a convincing argument.So you're saying it's a convincing argument.

ok.

[turambar85]

Thank God for the Tillman's letter, or else liberals would'nt have had a convincing argument.

Is that what it boils to...

one lone oppinion.

Jesus H. Christobal....the purpose of the letter, at least to myself, is not proof that the Iraq war is bad. That has been said and basically proven so many times that it is a straw-man. The letter shows a blatant hypocrisy in the argument of many far-right neo-cons. They claim that people like myself who have attended war protests don't support our troops. They claim that to question the war, to say it is wrong, and to demand a recall of troops at some point is to side with the terrorists.

Now, as I have said before in this thread, your rhetoric has now come full circle, and you are left with 2 choices. Will you...
1. Say that you were mistaken, and it is not wrong to publicly condemn the Iraq war, that it is not against the troops.
or
2. Say that you only support the troops who support Bush, in which case it is not that we don't support the troops, but we don't support Dubya.

You have the choice, but you must make one. You have said that it is unpatriotic to fight against this war, that your are aiding and abetting the terrorists, and you have also said that we need to fully support the troops. When things like Haditha happen, it is said that it is wrong to demand military trials for the soldiers, that they are fighting for our freedom and need our support. So, will you say that you were wrong to comdemn those such as myself, or will you say that Tillman is an unpatriotic treasonous piece of commie shit? You absolutely have to pick one of the two.

Have some dignity and make the right choice, and enjoy the rhetorical grave which you have dug for yourselves.

[turambar85]

Thank God for the Tillman's letter, or else liberals would'nt have had a convincing argument.

Is that what it boils to...

one lone oppinion.


Actually, Gtown, there are entire groups and organizations made up of veterans against the war. Uninformed and arrogantly ignorant as usual.

"Thank God for dogmatic views, or else neo-conservatives would be left absolutely speechless."

[jochhejaam]

nope. It's more like he takes a way a point from those who sought to portray his brother's death as a heroic sacrifice by lying about how he died.
The truth that he was killed by friendly fire has been out for quite some time. With that being the case, it's ridiculous to suggest that he, and I hate to even repeat your phraseology, has taken a point away!

I'm not accusing Tillman's brother of anything. I am accusing you of using his opinions for political expediency's sake.
Exploitation, nothing less.

[boutons_]

$40K enlistment bonuses sure expose enlistees burning patriotism to serve in dubya's fucked over military.

[PixelPusher]

The truth that he was killed by friendly fire has been out for quite some time. With that being the case, it's ridiculous to suggest that he, and I hate to even repeat your phraseology, has taken a point away!

I'm not accusing Tillman's brother of anything. I am accusing you of using his opinions for political expediency's sake.
Exploitation, nothing less.
How is linking to his publicly posted letter "exploitation"? Did you even bother to read it? Exploitation is certainly a theme running through it, it just that this administration is the one doing the exploiting.

[gtownspur]

So you're saying it's a convincing argument.

ok.

Not convincing to me if you wanted to ask. :donkey

[gtownspur]

Actually, Gtown, there are entire groups and organizations made up of veterans against the war. Uninformed and arrogantly ignorant as usual.

"Thank God for dogmatic views, or else neo-conservatives would be left absolutely speechless."


Actually jackass, i'm not denying their existence either, quit assuming.

There's also groups dedicated towards supporting the war who are littered with vets.

Does that mean that the existence of both cancels out both viewpoints... no!


It's just goes to show that both sides will post whatever suits their viewpoints.

I didn't know Tillman's veiwpoint going into the war and don't care.

Sound arguments, not emotional letters, will sway me.

[gtownspur]

Jesus H. Christobal....the purpose of the letter, at least to myself, is not proof that the Iraq war is bad. That has been said and basically proven so many times that it is a straw-man. The letter shows a blatant hypocrisy in the argument of many far-right neo-cons. They claim that people like myself who have attended war protests don't support our troops. They claim that to question the war, to say it is wrong, and to demand a recall of troops at some point is to side with the terrorists.

Now, as I have said before in this thread, your rhetoric has now come full circle, and you are left with 2 choices. Will you...
1. Say that you were mistaken, and it is not wrong to publicly condemn the Iraq war, that it is not against the troops.
or
2. Say that you only support the troops who support Bush, in which case it is not that we don't support the troops, but we don't support Dubya.

You have the choice, but you must make one. You have said that it is unpatriotic to fight against this war, that your are aiding and abetting the terrorists, and you have also said that we need to fully support the troops. When things like Haditha happen, it is said that it is wrong to demand military trials for the soldiers, that they are fighting for our freedom and need our support. So, will you say that you were wrong to comdemn those such as myself, or will you say that Tillman is an unpatriotic treasonous piece of commie shit? You absolutely have to pick one of the two.

Have some dignity and make the right choice, and enjoy the rhetorical grave which you have dug for yourselves.



Hey, douchebag.

Quit assuming again. Find me a post where i called anyone unamerican for opposition for the war.

ANd then you can apply that to me.


You're just full of yourself.

[turambar85]

Actually jackass, i'm not denying their existence either, quit assuming.

There's also groups dedicated towards supporting the war who are littered with vets.

Does that mean that the existence of both cancels out both viewpoints... no!


It's just goes to show that both sides will post whatever suits their viewpoints.

I didn't know Tillman's veiwpoint going into the war and don't care.

Sound arguments and not emotional letters will sway me.

Actually, jackass, you did assume that they didn't exist. You said one lone opinion of one lone soldier means nothing. However, I then say that its more than 1 soldier, and then you say that more than one person believes the opposing side is the truth. So, now numbers mean nothing as validation, so one lone opinion is just as valuable.

And, again, its to show the damned hypocrisy and ignorance in the claims of protestors being anti-American. Should Tillman "get the hell out"?

[PixelPusher]

The next "sound arguement" I hear from the Bush Administration will be the first.

[turambar85]

Hey, douchebag.

Quit assuming again. Find me a post where i called anyone unamerican for opposition for the war.

ANd then you can apply that to me.


You're just full of yourself.

You wasn't referring to YOU, it was like the royal we, but not. You, in that statement, referred to neo-cons in general.

Now that thats past us, try refuting the post itself.

[gtownspur]

Actually, jackass, you did assume that they didn't exist. You said one lone opinion of one lone soldier means nothing. However, I then say that its more than 1 soldier, and then you say that more than one person believes the opposing side is the truth. So, now numbers mean nothing as validation, so one lone opinion is just as valuable.

And, again, its to show the damned hypocrisy and ignorance in the claims of protestors being anti-American. Should Tillman "get the hell out"?


What a fucking :dramaquee you are.

You are reading a whole paragraph when i've only typed one sentence.

Even a fucking 7 year old would comprehend that i was only talking about one individual and i wasn't implying that only this individual existed.

[gtownspur]

You wasn't referring to YOU, it was like the royal we, but not. You, in that statement, referred to neo-cons in general.

Now that thats past us, try refuting the post itself.


It doesn't refer to me, so ask the ghost neocon boogeymen if they still think you're unamerican.

[turambar85]

lol, I give up. A waste of time. If you can't even handle trying to refute an argument rather than make up mindless shit like that then its a waste of time.

[Clandestino]

$40K enlistment bonuses sure expose enlistees burning patriotism to serve in dubya's fucked over military.

not everyone gets those... also, many of the jobs that gets the best bonuses aren't in combat related fields. they are the highly technical, need an intelligent person field...

[01Snake]

lol, I give up. A waste of time. If you can't even handle trying to refute an argument rather than make up mindless shit like that then its a waste of time.

Whats a waste of time is people like you coming on here and trying to "make us see the truth". Look, you see things one way while other see it another. Been like that forever. Stop trying to ram your opinions down the throats of those who don't agree with you.

This is not directed at you turambar85 but it goes both ways.

[01Snake]

not everyone gets those... also, many of the jobs that gets the best bonuses aren't in combat related fields. they are the highly technical, need an intelligent person field...

Croutons simply thinks the military is made up borderline retards. You'll have to excuse his ignorance.

[ChumpDumper]

Not convincing to me if you wanted to ask. :donkeyBut you said it was convincing.

Make up your mind.

[clambake]

We need people that are easily convinced.

Something to confirm their enability to evolve.

It separates the real from the tool.

This would be a pretty boring place without a handful of Archie Bunkers.

[Clandestino]

Inability

[clambake]

Thank you clandy. My spelling has always suffered.

[clambake]

Let us not forget that the dead know more than some of the living.

[jochhejaam]

How is linking to his publicly posted letter "exploitation"? Did you even bother to read it? Exploitation is certainly a theme running through it, it just that this administration is the one doing the exploiting.

Uhm...Because it supports your political views of the war?

Were you seeking or hoping for objective discourse by posting extreme and subjective opinions in this Forum? Of course you weren't.

Be real, and don't pretend that you brought it in for any other reasons than those that I've stated.

[JoeChalupa]

Like the republican's use of 911 to exploit their political views?

[johnsmith]

I'll stay here and do whatever I can to cure the country of this GOP infection.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol :lol :lol Oh man, I read this entire thread and this is what stuck out to me the most. So tell me Clambake, what is it that you plan on doing to cure the country of the GOP infection? Are you planning to rid them by posting three line comments all over Spurstalk.com?

[turambar85]

Uhm...Because it supports your political views of the war?

Were you seeking or hoping for objective discourse by posting extreme and subjective opinions in this Forum? Of course you weren't.

Be real, and don't pretend that you brought it in for any other reasons than those that I've stated.

Uhm, Joch, I can't say I follow. By the logic that you use, anything we say on this forum, no matter what our intent or personal views, is either exploiting a situation or playing political games. Is it not possible to simply have views and opinions? Is it not possible to simply want to show a great letter by a great soldier, one that has the balls to stand up against the administration under which he "served"?

In trying to get people to read this letter I am playing no political game. No election will be swayed by me discussing its contents in a spurstalk forum, I don't have that big of a head. Every single thing that some people say on this board is tainted with their right-wing views, every single thing that some of the others utter is tainted with their left-wing ideas, but that does not mean that every single thing that any of you clowns say out loud is political exploitation and maneuvering. Come on.

You can't find anything to say because you know that I am right. You know that your circle of rhetoric has led you to an inescapable point in which you must give up either your comments, or your idealogical views. They are incompatable.

So, in short, stop making up bullshit about how it is political games. When you say something about the terrorists after another bombing, do you think that George Bush has you by the strings? I hope not. Start refuting arguments and stop making up absurd arguments such as this, it is just not cutting it.

[clambake]

The plan would go something like this:

1. Clean up this shit storm that Bush dropped in our lap. Send in more troops to secure all the borders and squeeze out the trouble makers, or get out.

2. Restore our image on the world stage. Recognize how important cooperation is.

3. Convince others that we won't allow that rabid dog in the White House to start any more stupid shit. Convince them that they won't need nukes to repel another Bush fuck up.

4. Address terror with our newly repaired relations with all countries.

5. Do something that resembles anything regarding social security and healthcare.

6. Gut the GOP.

[Extra Stout]

The plan would go something like this:

1. Clean up this shit storm that Bush dropped in our lap. Send in more troops to secure all the borders and squeeze out the trouble makers, or get out.

2. Restore our image on the world stage. Recognize how important cooperation is.

3. Convince others that we won't allow that rabid dog in the White House to start any more stupid shit. Convince them that they won't need nukes to repel another Bush fuck up.

4. Address terror with our newly repaired relations with all countries.

5. Do something that resembles anything regarding social security and healthcare.

6. Gut the GOP.

Items 2-4 are impossible. The damage done is irreversible. The old world of American exceptionalism will never be restored, and all Administrations going forward must learn to deal in a world where most nations will work together to constrain American power.

[clambake]

If 2 and 4 are impossible, then what you are saying is Bush has destroyed my sons future.

I hope your wrong.

[johnsmith]

If 2 and 4 are impossible, then what you are saying is Bush has destroyed my sons future.

I hope your wrong.


If your son is as worthless as his old man, then yes, his future is ruined. If not, I don't see how not being able to accomplish 2 and 4 will "destroy his future". I think you're being a little melodramatic don't you?

[Extra Stout]

If 2 and 4 are impossible, then what you are saying is Bush has destroyed my sons future.

I hope your wrong.
Why does it destroy your son's future?

[johnsmith]

Why does it destroy your son's future?


Is Clambake not talking to me? Is that why you had to repost the same thing I just wrote? Of course, you were a little more pleasant about it then me.

[Crookshanks]

My sister is in town visiting and we were talking about politics and the war last evening over dinner. Her son was in the Army and got back from Afghanistan in March. He spent over a year there. My sister said he doesn't understand why people here are saying the young men and women who enlisted don't know what they're doing.

He said the people he served with all understood the importance of what they were doing and that no one "tricked" them into enlisting. For the most part, they are all very patriotic and very supportive of the President.

So there's another point of view from someone who's been there. Will it change anyone's mind here on this forum? Probably not, but I think it's important to underscore the fact that the Kevin Tillman's are the exception, not the rule!

BTW, if you think ANYONE who enlists in the Army or Marines now is oblivious to the fact that they will most certainly end up in Iraq or Afghanistan - then you are an idiot and you make them out to be idiots also!

[Extra Stout]

Is Clambake not talking to me? Is that why you had to repost the same thing I just wrote? Of course, you were a little more pleasant about it then me.
The vagaries of not refreshing the window every 5 minutes...

Question: How much does the average American benefit from the expanse of American power, as contrasted with other Western industrialized nations?

[ChumpDumper]

So there's another point of view from someone who's been there. Will it change anyone's mind here on this forum? Probably not, but I think it's important to underscore the fact that the Kevin Tillman's are the exception, not the rule!Ah, the highly scientific Crookshanks fourth-hand information poll.

[01Snake]

If your son is as worthless as his old man, then yes, his future is ruined. If not, I don't see how not being able to accomplish 2 and 4 will "destroy his future". I think you're being a little melodramatic don't you?

Bahahahaha.

Yep, his kids future is ruined because the French wont like him. :lol

[01Snake]

Ah, the highly scientific Crookshanks fourth-hand information poll.

Should Crookshanks friend write down his thoughts? Then it would carry as much weight as Tillmans does. :lol

[JoeChalupa]

A very powerful statement indeed. No matter what side of the fence you are on you cannot deny that he has valid points.

[ChumpDumper]

Should Crookshanks friend write down his thoughts? Then it would carry as much weight as Tillmans does. :lolSure would. There's a difference between that and Crookshanks' "facts".

[01Snake]

Sure would. There's a difference between that and Crookshanks' "facts".

:lol

[Crookshanks]

Sure would. There's a difference between that and Crookshanks' "facts".

Why? My nephew is a pretty typical recruit. He was about 21 when he went to Afganistan, raised in a middle-class family in Michigan. He is very smart, he just didn't want to go to college at that time.

So why are his observations and opinions any less valid than Kevin Tillman's? I challenge any of you naysayers to go to Fort Hood or any other Army base and talk to the young men and women there. I doubt you'd find many Kevin Tillman's!

If you'd read or listen to other sources than your liberal media outlets, you'd hear story after story after story of soldiers and marines who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've yet to hear one who thinks like Kevin Tillman. I've also heard from many mothers and fathers of these brave young men and women and none of them are like Cindy Sheehan.

My point was that there are differing opinions from those who have served - why do the negative ones carry more weight and importance?

[ChumpDumper]

Why? My nephew is a pretty typical recruit.There you go again.
So why are his observations and opinions any less valid than Kevin Tillman's? You predictably miss the point.
If you'd read or listen to other sources than your liberal media outletsI do. I see all kinds of opinons from soldiers.
My point was that there are differing opinions from those who have servedYour point was trying to invalidate Tillman's POV by pretending he's the only soldier who feels this way.

[Crookshanks]

You know Chump - you are the most irritating and annoying person on this forum, with the exception of boutons.

Don't put words in my mouth and don't try to tell me what my point was - you know nothing about what my intentions were!

As far as my nephew is concerned - isn't it the general consensus in here that the majority of recruits come from lower and middle class America? So why is my assumption so ridiculous?

I wasn't invalidating Tillman's point of view, I was just stating that liberals seem to put way more importance on his point of view, but tend to dismiss the views of soldiers like my nephew and his buddies. And you've proved that point!

[ChumpDumper]

You know Chump - you are the most irritating and annoying person on this forum, with the exception of boutons.Thanks. You aren't very intelligent.
Don't put words in my mouth and don't try to tell me what my point was - you know nothing about what my intentions were!I know what you wrote -- it's all there.
I wasn't invalidating Tillman's point of viewYou were trying.
I was just stating that liberals seem to put way more importance on his point of view, but tend to dismiss the views of soldiers like my nephew and his buddies.Nah, you were going out of your way to say he was the exception, a lone voice of dissent.
And you've proved that point!Nah, I didn't try to invalidate their opinions, just your characterizations of them.

[johnsmith]

Thanks. You aren't very intelligent.I know what you wrote -- it's all there.You were trying.Nah, you were going out of your way to say he was the exception, a lone voice of dissent.Nah, I didn't try to invalidate their opinions, just your characterizations of them.


Sorry Chump, I've grown to like you over the past few weeks (not that you really care), but I'm going to have to side with Crookshanks on this one. He's making an obvious point and you are trying to argue it by just being "cute".

[ChumpDumper]

Not really. I accept that there are differing viewpoints throughout the armed services -- I simply think it's impossible to get a real consensus of feeling and speak for them all given whatever tiny sample size anyone is exposed to -- Tillman's letter or tv snippets or nephew anecdotes.

[johnsmith]

Not really. I accept that there are differing viewpoints throughout the armed services -- I simply think it's impossible to get a real consensus of feeling and speak for them all given whatever tiny sample size anyone is exposed to -- Tillman's letter or tv snippets or nephew anecdotes.


Yeah, I know that this is how you think but I don't think you ever expressed your view in those posts by including Tillman's letter as an example. You can thus see where the confusion comes in, no?


Having said that, I'm still confused why Clambake's son's future is in such jeopardy?

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, I know that this is how you think but I don't think you ever expressed your view in those posts by including Tillman's letter as an example.I don't know why I expressly had to do so -- you were smart enough to figure it out, right?
You can thus see where the confusion comes in, no?I can see where someone like shanks could get confused.
Having said that, I'm still confused why Clambake's son's future is in such jeopardy?Dunno -- maybe he sees him getting drafted if we invade all the bad countries.

[Extra Stout]

Sorry Chump, I've grown to like you over the past few weeks (not that you really care), but I'm going to have to side with Crookshanks on this one. He's making an obvious point and you are trying to argue it by just being "cute".
Crookshanks is a "she."

[clambake]

Had to step out, but thanks for all the kind words.

I'm not interested in him having to feel isolated from the world or having to protect the likes of morons that put us in this situation to begin with.

Some of you will be happy to know that we are weaker, we are burying our kids everyday for no reason and there is no end in sight.

So feel comfortable about being considered the most ignorant saps in our schools future history classes.

[johnsmith]

Had to step out, but thanks for all the kind words.

I'm not interested in him having to feel isolated from the world or having to protect the likes of morons that put us in this situation to begin with.

Some of you will be happy to know that we are weaker, we are burying our kids everyday for no reason and there is no end in sight.

So feel comfortable about being considered the most ignorant saps in our schools future history classes.


????

[clambake]

I think Tillman is suggesting that anyone that supports this president is of equally low character.

Didn't W's parents ever tell him that lies will only bite you in the ass?

[clambake]

If Pat were still alive, I wonder if he would plant one of his patented running forearms to the head of Bush?

[DarkReign]

Good read. Its his opinion, hes entitled to it. Him serving his country and losing a family member to the same operation makes his opinion a little more valid than my own, for example.

Take it for what its worth. Does it echo a large section of Americans? Sure. A majority? No idea.

[clambake]

He talked with his brother about everything. All the time. Right to the end. They always had that kind of relationship.

He knows what his brother would think.

[PixelPusher]

Not really. I accept that there are differing viewpoints throughout the armed services -- I simply think it's impossible to get a real consensus of feeling and speak for them all given whatever tiny sample size anyone is exposed to -- Tillman's letter or tv snippets or nephew anecdotes.
Here another snippet to add to the mix:

Active troops ask congress to end Iraqi occupation (http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/2006/10/active-troops-ask-congress-to-end.html)

[Winehole23]

tl;dr

the US Army lied and covered up their own responsibility for the death of Pat Tillman


A friendly fire death, a platoon's 20 years of trauma (https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/41849751/pat-tillman-friendly-fire-death-20-years-trauma-platoon)