Should CNN be airing footage of Iraqi sniper attacks on U.S. soldiers?

[IceColdBrewski]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/10/19/entertainment/e173930D42.DTL


CNN Airs Footage of Iraq Sniper Attacks
By DAVID BAUDER, AP Television Writer

Thursday, October 19, 2006


(10-19) 17:39 PDT New York (AP) --


A CNN executive said Thursday the network's effort to present the "unvarnished truth" about the Iraq war led it to televise portions of a video that shows insurgent snipers targeting U.S. military personnel.


The tape, which came to the network unexpectedly through contact with an insurgent leader, was aired first Wednesday night on "Anderson Cooper 360" and repeated on Thursday.


In one instance, the tape shows a uniformed member of the U.S. military milling in a public area with Iraqis. A shot rings out. CNN fades the screen to black before the result — described as a victim falling forward — is visible.


It's one of 10 separate sniper attacks on Americans documented on the tape, which CNN technicians concluded was authentic, said David Doss, executive producer of Cooper's show, in a Web log entry describing the network's decision what to show.


CNN could not determine the identity of any of the sniper victims, spokeswoman Christa Robinson said.


Baghdad correspondent Michael Ware had been in contact through intermediaries with Ibrahim al-Shammari, a leader for the rebel group Islamic Army. Ware had sent al-Shammari a series of questions about the insurgency in Iraq, Doss explained.


In reply, al-Shammari sent two tapes. One reportedly showed him, with face concealed, responding to the questions. The other showed the sniper incidents, seemingly taken by the insurgents themselves, CNN said.


CNN understood that some critics might find that the tape had public relations benefits for the insurgency, Doss wrote.


"We also understood that this kind of footage is upsetting and disturbing for many viewers," he said. "But after getting beyond the emotional debate, we concluded the tape meets our criteria for newsworthiness."


The decision was subject to "hours of intense editorial debate" at CNN's highest levels, he said.


Doss said he had already received several angry responses from viewers of Wednesday's five-minute report, some wondering whether CNN was helping the enemy and others concerned that the tape was inappropriate for young viewers who may have happened upon it.


"Whether or not you agree with us in this case, our goal, as always, is to present the unvarnished truth as best we can," Doss said.

Maybe it's just me, but obtaining homemade footage from terrorists killing our soldiers and airing it on U.S. televisions seems a bit...counterproductive. I guess the maximization of profit is more important for CNN.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Or it could just be that whole thing about putting as much as possible about a story out there so that readers/viewers can decide for themselves what to think.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

CNN understood that some critics might find that the tape had public relations benefits for the insurgency, Doss wrote.


If the insurgency had anybody's "benefit" based on the airing of the tapes, they were getting their benefit regardless of the airing.

I am glad CNN did the fade-to-black during the immediate shootings.

[dougp]

Or it could just be that whole thing about putting as much as possible about a story out there so that readers/viewers can decide for themselves what to think.
What part of the story are we missing here, that we want to watch our troops be killed?

CNN shouldn't be showing this stuff, but hey - maybe it'll remove the stupid RoEs regarding our troops and let them just beat the fuck out of people and kill those who present an actual danger instead of waiting to be attacked.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

What part of the story are we missing here, that we want to watch our troops be killed?

You don't have to watch. CNN gave ample warning before the airing of the footage.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Thursday, October 19, 2006
Why we aired the sniper video

Last night, we ran a controversial piece produced by our Baghdad correspondent Michael Ware. The backstory is that through intermediaries Michael had been communicating with Ibrahim Al-Shimary, a shadowy leader and spokesman for the Islamic Army. Michael had sent him a series of questions concerning the insurgency in Iraq and its motives. He was surprised when he received two videotapes in response. We aired portions of both last night.

One had Al-Shimary himself on camera -- his face electronically concealed -- responding to Michael's questions. The second tape surprised us even more. It documented 10 incidents of insurgent snipers attacking U.S. military personnel. To be clear, insurgents shot the tape themselves. This group has released similar tapes in the past. Indeed, you can find them on the Internet. But this tape uniquely included audio from the sniper team as they selected targets, waited for their opportunities and then praised Allah as they made their escapes.

We are assuming they included the sniper tape to prove the authenticity of the Al-Shimary interview tape and to establish their credibility. Of course, we also understood that some might conclude there is a public relations benefit for the insurgents if we aired the material, especially on CNN International. We also understood that this kind of footage is upsetting and disturbing for many viewers. But after getting beyond the emotional debate, we concluded the tape meets our criteria for newsworthiness.

Moreover, with 73 U.S. military casualties so far this month, October is already the third highest month for U.S. deaths in Iraq since the war began. In fact, many of them are victims of sniper attacks.

For those who did not see the piece, you can watch it here now: (Watch CNN's report on the insurgent video)

You should know we dipped to black at the moment of actual impact of the rounds. A number of us felt airing that precise moment was simply too horrific. That decision, as well as the decision to build a piece around the sniper tape -- in fact, all the decisions about this story -- were subject to hours of intense editorial debate at the highest levels here at CNN.

You should also know we tried to put all of this in context. Our reporting included an interview with a current U.S. sniper in Iraq. He's been both under attack from insurgent snipers and he has himself operated as a sniper. We also heard from Major General William Caldwell, a coalition forces spokesman in Iraq, and CNN military analyst General David Grange, formerly with the Green Beret, Delta Force and Army Rangers.

Instantly, the piece received many strongly-worded responses from viewers.

Many viewers thought it inappropriate for us to air video of Americans being shot: "If I had a son or daughter over there serving, I would be outraged by what I feel is your aiding and comforting the enemy."

Some worried about kids who might have watched the program. (We clearly warned viewers the video was not appropriate for children before we aired it.)

Others praised us for showing the threats U.S. military personnel actually face: "Thanks for having the guts to show the sniper update and to show us the other side of the story. Please continue to give us the truth; I know the network is bound to be taking heat."

And still others thought by dipping to black and not showing the moment of impact of the sniper rounds we were sanitizing the horror of war: " ... I think the reason it took Americans so long to come around on this war is because they somehow did not think it was real because they never saw anyone hurt ... you guys need to show the unvarnished truth."

Whether or not you agree with us in this case, our goal, as always, is to present the unvarnished truth as best we can.

Posted By David Doss, "360" Executive Producer: 12:59 PM ET

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

And as far as Tony Snow saying that the airing of this will break the will of the American people...I disagree.

Seeing something like that pisses me off even more that these insurgents can pick off Coalition soldiers (and like you said, they have to wait before they engage and that's bullshit).

EDIT: I misread Snow's statement. His original statement said that the President "worries that insurgents are providing such images in an effort to break the will of the American people," but that they weren't going to work.

[Solid D]

The video certainly aids in discouraging military recruiting. The use of snipers is common in war. It's not normally shown on video, though.

US showing video of multiple airstrikes on "targets" is a little less personal than the insurgent video. If the nation hadn't tired of the war in Iraq and US and Allied countries leadership weren't under such severe criticism, that 10-target sniper video would probably not have been presented as news.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

The video certainly aids in discouraging military recruiting. The use of snipers is common in war.

US showing video of multiple airstrikes on "targets" is a little less personal than the insurgient video. If the nation hadn't tired of the war in Iraq and US and Allied countries leadership weren't under such severe criticism, that 10-target sniper video would probably not have been presented as news.

If thet threat of the insurgency wasn't there, there would have been no video to begin with.

You know, I've never been in the military and I've always known that it wasn't for me, but I've had many friends and family members in the military, so take my next statement for what it's worth.

I would think if the airing of a video on CNN introduced a thought of possible death while serving your country, you probably wanted to pass on the military in the first place.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Or it could just be that whole thing about putting as much as possible about a story out there so that readers/viewers can decide for themselves what to think.

That's why CNN didn't air any atrocities going on while Saddam was still in power, to present 'as much as possible'. :rolleyes

It's gutless and demoralizing what CNN is doing, but then again the same people leading that network and its direction were the ones doing the same against our country and its troops during Vietnam, and it looks like in the end they'll have the same affect.

Pretty pathetic, but that's what you get with the liberal media...

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

That's why CNN didn't air any atrocities going on while Saddam was still in power, to present 'as much as possible'. :rolleyes

It's gutless and demoralizing what CNN is doing, but then again the same people leading that network and its direction were the ones doing the same against our country and its troops during Vietnam, and it looks like in the end they'll have the same affect.

Pretty pathetic, but that's what you get with the liberal media...

I'm not saying they're perfect and that they haven't screwed up many times before, but isn't it quite possible that the thoughts of what journalism is have changed many times since CNN held back footage to keep their Iraqi credentials.

Let me ask this question, then.

If CNN is to be taken to task for not reporting what they could very easily prove in order to keep their credentials, why are some lawmakers asking for CNN's credentials to be pulled based on the airing of this footage? Do they hold the video or show it?

[Jimcs50]

I wish Bush would watch the footage.

[Solid D]

If CNN got ahold of a Muhammed/Malvo tape of their sniper killings and aired it on TV and on the website with only the moment of impact blanked out, and then showed the victim falling would that be deemed "newsworthy"?

[Jimcs50]

Americans need to get their heads out of the sand and know what the hell is going on.


The number of direct attacks(not suicide bombers) on US soldiers has increased 1500% over just one year ago.

The don't shoot unless you are fired upon first policy is asinine, and it is causing a huge loss of life of our soldiers.

I wish Bush would go to Bagdad and sit in the street on a corner and "wait" to be shot at before he does anything about it.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

If CNN got ahold of a Muhammed/Malvo tape of their sniper killings and aired it on TV and on the website with only the moment of impact blanked out, and then showed the victim falling would that be deemed "newsworthy"?

You know what, I don't know what CNN would determine and I can't really answer. I don't know whether or not I would air that footage (the length of time since then would play a large part in my decision).

I keep sitting and typing and realizing that I don't know what I would do in that situation and any attempt to explain that wouldn't truely explain what I'm thinking.

[johnsmith]

Americans need to get their heads out of the sand and know what the hell is going on.


The number of direct attacks(not suicide bombers) on US soldiers has increased 1500% over just one year ago.

The don't shoot unless you are fired upon first policy is asinine, and it is causing a huge loss of life of our soldiers.

I wish Bush would go to Bagdad and sit in the street on a corner and "wait" to be shot at before he does anything about it.


If Bush were to do this and actually go and sit on a street corner, he would have even more in common with Fillmoe's mother.

[IceColdBrewski]

Americans need to get their heads out of the sand and know what the hell is going on.


The number of direct attacks(not suicide bombers) on US soldiers has increased 1500% over just one year ago.

The don't shoot unless you are fired upon first policy is asinine, and it is causing a huge loss of life of our soldiers.

I wish Bush would go to Bagdad and sit in the street on a corner and "wait" to be shot at before he does anything about it.

They don't need to show that war is hell. We all know that war is hell. The footage doesn't communicate anything that we didn't already know.

[SA210]

It's gutless
This coming from a coward who likes sending others to fight and die in a war that You want, but won't go fight it yourself.

[Jimcs50]

They don't need to show that war is hell. We all know that war is hell. The footage doesn't communicate anything that we didn't already know.


That is so naive.

We do not know 1% of what the real story is.

This war is bullshit, and the only person in America that thinks it is going well is Bush. Even his dad knew it would be a huge mistake to take Saddam out of power, which is why he did not do it in 91. Bush is an idiot who has sold us out to the oil companies and Halliburton.

[IceColdBrewski]

That is so naive.

We do not know 1% of what the real story is.

This war is bullshit, and the only person in America that thinks it is going well is Bush. Even his dad knew it would be a huge mistake to take Saddam out of power, which is why he did not do it in 91. Bush is an idiot who has sold us out to the oil companies and Halliburton.

So you think CNN providing the terrorists a service is going to change all that?

Who's the naive one again?

[Trainwreck2100]

I do believe they can show anything hey want as said by the second ammendment. But that's okay because Bush can just cal them terrorists and torture them for no reason

[Jimcs50]

So you think CNN providing the terrorists a service is going to change all that?

Who's the naive one again?


Do you think the terrorists give a rat's ass about public opinion?

Their job is to inflict terror, that is all they care about. The all want to go to paradise and fuck 72 virgins for eternity......nothing else matters to them. Their lives are a shithole, and paradise is the only way out.

You heard the song Me and Bobby Magee?

"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose" They got nothing to lose, we do....hence they have a huge advantage over us.

This war is unwinable, and until you naive people realize that, we will continue to lose American lives and Exxon and Moble(And Bush) will continue to profit from it

Wake up and smell the napalm.

[Trainwreck2100]

Wake up and smell the napalm.

Can't use napalm, it will ignite the oil, then we would have no reason to be there.

[Jimcs50]

Can't use napalm, it will ignite the oil, then we would have no reason to be there.

:spin



napalm is a petrolium product...we need the oil to make it.

:)

[Solid D]

Okay, Jim has convinced me. Airing the video was a great idea. I am no longer a naive homer.

[Trainwreck2100]

:spin



napalm is a petrolium product...we need the oil to make it.

:)

That my good sir, is what we call a paradox

[SA210]

That my good sir, is what we call a paradox
Thank you Mr. Costello.

[Jimcs50]

Okay, Jim has convinced me. Airing the video was a great idea. I am no longer a naive homer.

Good to know that you listen to reason, Solid.


:)

[Good 'N Plenty]

I didn't have a problem with it.

[IceColdBrewski]

I didn't have a problem with it.

I bet you'd have a problem with it if CNN showed one of your friends or family members getting killed by sniper. At least I hope you would.

[IceColdBrewski]

Do you think the terrorists give a rat's ass about public opinion?

Their job is to inflict terror, that is all they care about. The all want to go to paradise and fuck 72 virgins for eternity......nothing else matters to them. Their lives are a shithole, and paradise is the only way out.

You heard the song Me and Bobby Magee?

"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose" They got nothing to lose, we do....hence they have a huge advantage over us.

This war is unwinable, and until you naive people realize that, we will continue to lose American lives and Exxon and Moble(And Bush) will continue to profit from it

Wake up and smell the napalm.

I guess the meaning of this thread went right over your head. Your problem seems to be with the war itself. I didn't post this to get into a war debate. My problem is with CNN showing footage like this just to shamelessly get ratings. Not to mention putting our troops in harms way by giving terrorists an incentive to go out and do more of the same.

Ware was doing a piece on the terrorists, asking them basically, "WTF is up with you?" They send back the answers as well as 10 snipings from their camera POV. The first part should've made the cut, the Q&A with the terrorists. But that wouldn't have garnered as many viewers and CNN felt like a little gore and horrorshow (at the expense of our soldiers) would spike the ratings a bit.

Sorry, but I'm not the naive one here. I know how things work in the real world. Especially in the sick world of the media.

[jman3000]

i say show whatever needs to be shown... it's up to the viewer in the end whether they choose to view it or not.

[Solid D]

Good to know that you listen to reason, Solid.


:)

:rolleyes Maybe this will spawn a new video game, "Jihad Sniper takes on the West". Fair and balanced gaming for a better world perspective.

[IceColdBrewski]

i say show whatever needs to be shown...


Even if it involves airing enemy propoganda? Do you think the American public is smart enough to identify propoganda when they hear it? You'd be dead wrong if you did. Remember when this whole mess got started? The American media (including CNN) was 100% behind the advancement of the war, both before it and during it. Only recerntly have they come to question it or criticize it. They knew the bonanza in ratings that would come from War-Live, and they designed all sorts of catchy names and programming to go with it (e.''g... COUNTDOWN TO WAR on MSNBC)

It absolutely was propoganda at it's worst and the American people bought it hook, line, and sinker.

[CosmicCowboy]

We all know that soldiers are getting shot. I'm just not sure that we need to see them "getting hit and falling down" on CNN...but if CNN will shamelessly do anything for ratings, why not go ahead and do closeups of blood and brains all over the sidewalk...it's just the "unvarnished truth" after all...

[dougp]

:rolleyes Maybe this will spawn a new video game, "Jihad Sniper takes on the West". Fair and balanced gaming for a better world perspective.
There is already game like that ... check on the web man, but if you d/l it I'm going to assume you're sick as fuck.

[IceColdBrewski]

We all know that soldiers are getting shot. I'm just not sure that we need to see them "getting hit and falling down" on CNN...but if CNN will shamelessly do anything for ratings, why not go ahead and do closeups of blood and brains all over the sidewalk...it's just the "unvarnished truth" after all...


Carefull now. You're obviously taking the "naive" approach to this whole thing.

[Solid D]

No, I don't think I'll be downloading that game.

[Good 'N Plenty]

I bet you'd have a problem with it if CNN showed one of your friends or family members getting killed by sniper. At least I hope you would.

No. It is WAR. People die. At least I'd know how it really happened and the not the Government's story.

[MannyIsGod]

So, people are upset at what CNN airs? Don't watch. Its a pretty simple solution.

If Tony Snow is worried about the will of the American people breaking, then perhaps he and the rest of the administration should worry about winning the war. Wars are won on the ground, not on cable news channels.

[IceColdBrewski]

So, people are upset at what CNN airs? Don't watch. Its a pretty simple solution.

Agreed. Lets all ignore a major news network in our country airing terrorist footage of our fighting men and women getting killed. That'll make the problem go away.

Brilliant!
http://www.mustangmods.com/data/10900/brilliant.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

You're suggesting that a display without an audience is an effective display? Thats utter foolishness. (But who's suprised, really?)

There are horrible things coming out of Iraq, and some of them will be shown. What gets me is the outrage directed at our news network who is merely reporting what happens. They're not the one pulling the triggers or putting our soldiers there.

With news channels is always about ratings. Thats a given. So don't give them the ratings, and they won't show these things.

But if you got as outraged at your public officials as you do at a news network, then perhaps things might be a bit more well run in our country. But hey, your psuedo internet anger is probably at least entertaining for you, right?

[Bob Lanier]

:lol Only in America, so to speak.


terrorist
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[boutons_]

sure, why not?

The US military releases or leaks videos of missile strikes and helicopters strafing the enemy.

Remember the whole scripted "shock-and-awe" dog-and-pony show business the military put on when starting to hit Bagdad in 2003?

The sheeple love watching that shit as long as its the other side getting killed.

People are not squeamish about seeing dead Iraqis lying around, but get upset seeing dead/injured Americans?

The Repugs don't even want you to see the re-patriated coffins, bringing them back secretly in the middle of the night, off limits to photographers, lest people get too close to the horror of dubya's phony war.

What's good for the (Iraqi) goose, is good for the (American) gander.

[Jimcs50]

I guess the meaning of this thread went right over your head. Your problem seems to be with the war itself. I didn't post this to get into a war debate. My problem is with CNN showing footage like this just to shamelessly get ratings. Not to mention putting our troops in harms way by giving terrorists an incentive to go out and do more of the same.

Ware was doing a piece on the terrorists, asking them basically, "WTF is up with you?" They send back the answers as well as 10 snipings from their camera POV. The first part should've made the cut, the Q&A with the terrorists. But that wouldn't have garnered as many viewers and CNN felt like a little gore and horrorshow (at the expense of our soldiers) would spike the ratings a bit.

Sorry, but I'm not the naive one here. I know how things work in the real world. Especially in the sick world of the media.


Hey dumbass, the terrorists DO NOT NEED any more incentive.

The US is in their country.

We are the enemy...if they were in our country, I would shoot them too.

Our policies make out soldiers targets.

The terrorists hate American because of our middle east policies and our greed of our politicians...I hate our politicians who are on the take too....they only look out for their own bank accts and I hate that they are killing our own soldiers to satisfy their personal gains.

If Bush was hurt by a terrorist, I would not shed a tear, I would not condone it, but I woulld not lose any sleep over it. Bush and his policies have turned our country into the most loathed country in the world, and I hate him for that.

[IceColdBrewski]

Fine. I'm wrong. I guess it's really OK to show our soldiers getting killed by snipers. Who cares that it's someone's brother, someone's friend, someone's son. None of that really matters. The dead don't deserve any dignity anyway. Screw it. Forget about keeping our fighting men and women safe. Collaborating with the enemy to broadcast their propaganda is much more important. :tu

[Cant_Be_Faded]

ICB you're like half as smart as I thought you were--its almost as if you truely believe a terrorist watching CNN will be substantially more motivated to be a terrorist...if you say these things out loud maybe you'll realize how stupid it is.


I think you need to look up the definition of "safe" and "propaganda". WTF is Mr. Dictionary?

[IceColdBrewski]

Hey dumbass,...

:rolleyes

I stopped reading right there. All this time I thought you were above resorting to name-calling. I stand corrected.

[IceColdBrewski]

ICB you're like half as smart as I thought you were--

So why bother responding?


its almost as if you truely believe a terrorist watching CNN will be substantially more motivated to be a terrorist...

Think about it now. Those particular soldiers were shot specifically to make the video. I think this was in the nature of: "lets make a propoganda video of us shooting US soldiers, and use it to recruit some help." So in my view, CNN sort of completed or fulfilled the intent by posting it. If am an insurgent I'd go out now and do more of it, because it's working.

Maybe I just take this a little too personally since I'm a veteran, but I don't see how this is benefitting our soldiers (or the American public) at all.

[dougp]

Hey dumbass, the terrorists DO NOT NEED any more incentive.

The US is in their country.

We are the enemy...if they were in our country, I would shoot them too.

Our policies make out soldiers targets.

The terrorists hate American because of our middle east policies and our greed of our politicians...I hate our politicians who are on the take too....they only look out for their own bank accts and I hate that they are killing our own soldiers to satisfy their personal gains.

If Bush was hurt by a terrorist, I would not shed a tear, I would not condone it, but I woulld not lose any sleep over it. Bush and his policies have turned our country into the most loathed country in the world, and I hate him for that.
I hate to break it to you, but obviously you haven't been paying attention the past 50 years. Terrorism exists against the US no matter WHO is the president, regardless of their foreign policy or party affiliation.

They dislike our culture, and our way of life ... last I checked, what you wear and the rights you give people (freedom of choice in religion, what you wear, how you treat criminals, etc.) will not be severely impacted by 1 Presidential term. We're over there, and if they wanted to, the next President could pull out regardless of what the world thinks - but hey, if that's what you want, so be it. If you think you could be president, go do all this shit they bash Bush for doing, faking your education and paying off the school, being a drunk party boy at the frat, etc.

Cause we all know that 99% of our politicians are self made ...

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

If am an insurgent I'd go out now and do more of it, because it's working.

I'm no insurgent, but I doubt they would need the airing of a video to want to go kill more troops.

[clambake]

What it shows is how dire a situation we've placed our young men and women. It also shows how easy it is for them to operate in the field. CNN might have aired it to spur americans to demand change.

[MannyIsGod]

Propaganda? How exactly is the airing of this footage over American TV going to hurt our troops? Their moral is already incredibly low. The American people already don't want to be there. If anything, the airing is a reflection of where the general American opinion currently is, not where it will go.

[dougp]

Propaganda? How exactly is the airing of this footage over American TV going to hurt our troops? Their moral is already incredibly low. The American people already don't want to be there. If anything, the airing is a reflection of where the general American opinion currently is, not where it will go.How many friends in the military do you have? I have quite a few, including family ... the reason why moral is low is because of the shit they do show over here, and the American media not always showing the truth. Believe what you will, but I'll take the word of the soldiers I know personally over the mass media.

[MannyIsGod]

How many friends in the military do you have? I have quite a few, including family ... the reason why moral is low is because of the shit they do show over here, and the American media not always showing the truth. Believe what you will, but I'll take the word of the soldiers I know personally over the mass media.It has nothing to do with them dying in Iraq?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If CNN is to be taken to task for not reporting what they could very easily prove in order to keep their credentials, why are some lawmakers asking for CNN's credentials to be pulled based on the airing of this footage? Do they hold the video or show it?

Considering it is essentially propaganda against us (it's why it was released to CNN in the first place), I would hold that up as argument enough why it shouldn't be aired.



This coming from a coward who likes sending others to fight and die in a war that You want, but won't go fight it yourself.

What's cowardly about getting a college education and having a job where going and fighting isn't at the top of my list of things to do? I guess I'm just supposed to abandon my life and go fight so pissy little liberals such as yourself can sit around and bitch about it.

And further, I've sent exactly zero troops to go fight, but I like your logic. Typical of liberals when they don't have an argument, just pull out the ol' "if you support it, why don't you go fight it?"

I could ask you, Dan, croutons, etc. the same thing about the jihad against the West.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

How exactly is the airing of this footage over American TV going to hurt our troops? Their moral is already incredibly low

Most of the guys I know over there feel good about being there. The only thing that they get bummed about is their perceived lack of support by the folks back home and (thanks to the good ol' liberal left media outcry/peace activists) the overly restrictive rules of engagement that require them to wait for someone to shoot at them before they can shoot back.

[dougp]

It has nothing to do with them dying in Iraq?
Ok, not to sound like an asshole, but when people join the military they should know that there's a possibility they will die in military exercises. Period.

I knew that when I was going through signing up, and my uncle is well aware of it also. He gets to meet people everyday who try and get out (he's an instructor for mental health science, and deems people Section 8.)

So yah, it's the lack of support in the US that lowers their moral.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

How many friends in the military do you have? I have quite a few, including family ... the reason why moral is low is because of the shit they do show over here, and the American media not always showing the truth. Believe what you will, but I'll take the word of the soldiers I know personally over the mass media.

A family member will soon be there, and I can assure you he gives exactly two shits about what they show on CNN or any channel, he is just counting down the days until he gets back.

I sincerely doubt that a soldier who is forced to fight a war he does not care about really fucking cares about what chicken hawks think when CNN shows something they don't agree with.



the American media not always showing the truth. .


I agree!!! Like when the media was not allowed to show the throngs of dead soldiers returning home via airplane.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Most of the guys I know over there feel good about being there. The only thing that they get bummed about is their perceived lack of support by the folks back home and (thanks to the good ol' liberal left media outcry/peace activists) the overly restrictive rules of engagement that require them to wait for someone to shoot at them before they can shoot back.
perceived by whom? Surely not america...I see support our troop ribbons a dime a dozen up here in dtown and im sure you do to.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

.

[dougp]

I agree!!! Like when the media was not allowed to show the throngs of dead soldiers returning home via airplane.
It's called respect.

[MannyIsGod]

So the biggest thing effecting moral is CNN programing as opposed to the number of dead or injured American soldiers in a war that is floundering?

[dougp]

So the biggest thing effecting moral is CNN programing as opposed to the number of dead or injured American soldiers in a war that is floundering?
The biggest thing affecting moral is the American public's lack of support for the war, and thusly, the troops. What affects the support for the war/administration is how the mainstream media portrays what is happening.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

When will you marriotts realize that no matter how many of us become chickenhawks, neocons, or no matter how many of us buy support our troop ribbons that it has relatively little or no effect on what the generals' plan of attack (defense?) is, no effect on how many terrorists pick up an AK, no effect on how many more soldiers are sent over, no effect on how long this civil war will last, no effect on practically ANYTHING, except your dead set chicken hawk minds

[MannyIsGod]

The biggest thing affecting moral is the American public's lack of support for the war, and thusly, the troops. What affects the support for the war/administration is how the mainstream media portrays what is happening.But see, you fail to come to the root of the problem. The media is not the one killing soldiers or wasting money in Iraq. They merely report what is happening. They don't make it up!

Oh, and support for the war is not the same for as support of the troops. I believe most troops understand this.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Its totally asanine, its like they're using the media as a scapegoat

[dougp]

Its totally asanine, its like they're using the media as a scapegoat
I'll take the opinion of troops who are serving over your fuckin dumb ass, period.

[IceColdBrewski]

I have a question for the "I don't have a problem with it" crowd. Have any of you ever served in the military? I'm guessing the answer is no.

[MannyIsGod]

I have a question for the "I don't have a problem with it" crowd. Have any of you ever served in the military? I'm guessing the answer is no.Oh, and that makes our opinion less valid right? Ok.

[IceColdBrewski]

Oh, and that makes our opinion less valid right? Ok.

In this case, it makes a helluva difference. Veterans don't see some mindless drone getting shot in footage like this as most civilians do. We see an old army buddy, someone who could be an old friend, and in some instances, we even picture ourselves being shot and used by CNN to boost ratings. The military is brotherhood. We look out for our own. I wouldn't expect you to understand. Anyhow, I'll take that as a no. Next.

[MannyIsGod]

In this case, it makes a helluva difference. Veterans don't see some mindless drone getting shot in footage like this as most civilians do. We see an old army buddy, someone who could be an old friend, and in some instances, we even picture ourselves being shot and used by CNN to boost ratings. The military is brotherhood. We look out for our own. I wouldn't expect you to understand. Anyhow, I'll take that as a no. Next.You're unreal. You look out for your own but you display more anger at a new network than the government that is getting them killed? Save me your bullshit. Its a damn shame when CNN uses you for ratings but its not a shame when Bush uses the military as a political ploy. Open your damn eyes.

As I said before, if you're upset at CNN, then don't provide them with your patronage. What more would you suggest? You blew that off as though you had a better option.

Thanks for fighting for the right to live in a society where we only show what the right wing wants us to see....

Oh wait...

[IceColdBrewski]

OK. We have Manny's rant. Anyone else from the "it doesn't bother me" crowd care to elaborate on their military experience?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Ok i get it, the military is fighting so that they will keep their morale up, and we need to change the country so that their morale stays up, i get it i get it.

[MannyIsGod]

OK. We have Manny's rant. Anyone else from the "it doesn't bother me" crowd care to elaborate on their military experience?
Maybe somewhere in your military training you recived training on evading questions because you're doing it damn well.

But then again, bitching on the internet against that damn media is fun, isn't it? You'e a joke.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

It doesn't bother me, either. How is different than anything else on the news?

Maybe if we'd stop being pussies about airing things like this we could focus on more important things(grand scheme of things) like winning the war...

[IceColdBrewski]

Maybe somewhere in your military training you recived training on evading questions because you're doing it damn well.

But then again, bitching on the internet against that damn media is fun, isn't it? You'e a joke.

Fine. I'm a joke. Whatever you say man. You can now join Jimcs50 in the "had to resort to name-calling" line.


The question still stands for the "It doesn't bother me." crowd.

[MannyIsGod]

It doesn't bother me, either. How is different than anything else on the news?

Maybe if we'd stop being pussies about airing things like this we could focus on more important things(grand scheme of things) like winning the war...CNN IS the reason we're losing the war!

This is what I don't get, with a horrible situation on the ground in Iraq and a government who can't get shit done, why do people even give a shit what CNN does? You have plenty to be angry about in DC.

[MannyIsGod]

Fine. I'm a joke. Whatever you say man. You can now join Jimcs50 in the "had to resort to name-calling" line.


The question still stands for the "It doesn't bother me." crowd.That evasion training was good! You want people to answer your questions but you ignore the others?

[MannyIsGod]

As I said before, if you're upset at CNN, then don't provide them with your patronage. What more would you suggest? You blew that off as though you had a better option.

[Jekka]

OK. We have Manny's rant. Anyone else from the "it doesn't bother me" crowd care to elaborate on their military experience?
The fact that you think my opinion means less because I haven't been in combat is bullshit. Not all of us are meant to serve in the armed forces - anyone who has met me would probably agree that I would suck at it because physically I'm not up for it - I'm short and I have child-bearing hips and generally suck at things like sprinting. However, my brain is still fairly intact, and I believe that it has the capacity to make informed decisions without necessarily having to dodge bullets.

Besides, I am serving my country. I'm not in the line of fire, but I am in AmeriCorps working with trauma victims, and I'm sorry if that does not qualify me to have an opinion about current events :rolleyes

[Cant_Be_Faded]

[waits for the oh i didn't mean women comeback]

[IceColdBrewski]

The fact that you think my opinion means less because I haven't been in combat is bullshit.

Try telling that to someone who has been in combat.


Besides, I am serving my country. I'm not in the line of fire, but I am in AmeriCorps working with trauma victims, and I'm sorry if that does not qualify me to have an opinion about current events :rolleyes

I never said you weren't qualified to have an opinion. In an attempt to get back on track, what's your opinion on the CNN footage?

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

...

[MannyIsGod]

Evasion! Is that the new ABC show? No! Its IceColdBrewski's method!

[Jekka]

Try telling that to someone who has been in combat.



I never said you weren't qualified to have an opinion. In an attempt to get back on track, what's your opinion on the CNN footage?
Obviously, "it doesn't bother me". Thus my response.

And yes, you basically did say that I'm not qualified to have an opinion, seeing as how you're telling me that my opinion is worthless because I haven't been in combat.

[IceColdBrewski]

Obviously, "it doesn't bother me". Thus my response.

And yes, you basically did say that I'm not qualified to have an opinion, seeing as how you're telling me that my opinion is worthless because I haven't been in combat.

Never said your opinion was worthless. that's just you trying to put words in my mouth. Nice try though.

No. Your opinoin isn't worthless, but those of us who have served obviously have a more informed point of view.

[MannyIsGod]

Never said your opinion was worthless. that's just you trying to put words in my mouth. Nice try though.

No. Your opinoin isn't worthless, but those of us who have served obviously have a more informed point of view.:lmao

Now thats rich.

What exactly did you do in the miltary? What exact training did you recieve that gives you a better handle on media and its effects?

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, you're still evading.

[Jekka]

Never said your opinion was worthless. that's just you trying to put words in my mouth. Nice try though.

No. Your opinoin isn't worthless, but those of us who have served obviously have a more informed point of view.
If your opinion trumps mine, then you are essentially saying that mine does not matter. If mine does not matter, then you are saying that, yes, it is indeed worthless. That's not putting words in your mouth, that's interpreting what you have already said.

You know, if what you say is true, then why can those of us who haven't been in combat vote? Why should our opinion matter? Why don't we just make it a prerequisite for those public office, those folks making our major decisions, to have been in combat? At least that would have kept Bush out of the White House.

[willie]

nothing better than seeing that some pampered kids think it's fine to watch their own country's troops gunned down by the enemy.

sure, you're free to express your opinion. in part because some poor schleps bother to put on that uniform and commit to going wherever they are told to go, including halfway around the world to some godforsaken desert to take part in a war which many of them didn't agree.

this is a new low in broadcast journalism. of course, that's a bit redundant.

[MannyIsGod]

Pampered kid, now theres a new one. BRB while I run to my Tahoe parked outside. I think thats where I left my response.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

They are dying whether we can watch them or not. It's happening, CNN is not creating it. Many of us feel a disconnenct to what is happening over there, whether we admit it or not. Things like this video bring the War back to forefront, where it should be.

[Melmart1]

They are dying whether we can watch them or not. It's happening, CNN is not creating it. Many of us feel a disconnenct to what is happening over there, whether we admit it or not. Things like this video bring the War back to forefront, where it should be.
This is EXACTLY what my brother who is in the AF and about to go for the THIRD time to a combat area soon said.

ICB, Enigma and AHF act like all troops feel the same way. THEY DON'T. Between my brother and an ex who I am still friendly with, I know better than to think that when a person says "the people I know over there all" are telling the truth. The soldiers are as deeply divided as the rest of America is.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Honestly, at least it gets the majority to remember we are still at war. Most people can name you all the people Paris Hilton and Jessica Simpson fucked before naming where are troops have been in the last three years. And good luck having them try to find the countries on a map.

Anybody acting like there are simple solutions to all complex issues raised by this engagement are certainly a tad myopic. Some have valid reasons to be, some are just plain ignorant.

[SA210]

What's cowardly about getting a college education and having a job where going and fighting isn't at the top of my list of things to do? I guess I'm just supposed to abandon my life and go fight so pissy little liberals such as yourself can sit around and bitch about it.

And further, I've sent exactly zero troops to go fight, but I like your logic. Typical of liberals when they don't have an argument, just pull out the ol' "if you support it, why don't you go fight it?"

I could ask you, Dan, croutons, etc. the same thing about the jihad against the West.
It's simple. It's cowardly, just like your administration, who wouldn't send their own or have never fought anything themselves, but they are so quick to support others to go fight and die in a war that You want.

It's easy to evade the truth by labeling me a "typical liberal". You don't want to abandon Your own life, but you're ok with others losing theirs to fight a phony illegal war for You? Yea, that's cowardly.

Hey AHF, read my sig.

[CuckingFunt]

If there's one thing that makes my skin crawl more than this ridiculous war, it's the various measures that have been taken to make it look like something less than a war.

People are dying. Our people are dying. Innocent people are dying. Things are ugly over there.

As much as I would hate to have to see it plastered on my TV every night, I am vehemently opposed to the idea of making it easier for people to stomach what's happening. There are some things in this world that we shouldn't be allowed to hide from so easily.

[SA210]

This is EXACTLY what my brother who is in the AF and about to go for the THIRD time to a combat area soon said.

ICB, Enigma and AHF act like all troops feel the same way. THEY DON'T. Between my brother and an ex who I am still friendly with, I know better than to think that when a person says "the people I know over there all" are telling the truth. The soldiers are as deeply divided as the rest of America is.
October 23rd, 2006 7:13 pm
Active-Duty Troops Launch Campaign to Press Congress to End U.S. Occupation of Iraq

65 Members to Send "Appeals for Redress" Under the Military Whistle-blower Protection Act

News Advisory (http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=74796):

For the first time since the U.S. invasion of Iraq, active- duty members of the military are asking Members of Congress to end the U.S. occupation of Iraq and bring American soldiers home.

Sixty-five active-duty members have sent Appeals for Redress to Members of Congress. Three of these people (including two who served in Iraq) and their attorney will speak about this on Wednesday, Oct. 25 at 11 a.m. EDT.

Under the Military Whistle-Blower Protection Act (DOD directive 7050.6), active-duty military, National Guard and Reservists can file and send a protected communication to a Member of Congress regarding any subject without reprisal.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

ICB, Enigma and AHF act like all troops feel the same way. THEY DON'T. Between my brother and an ex who I am still friendly with, I know better than to think that when a person says "the people I know over there all" are telling the truth. The soldiers are as deeply divided as the rest of America is.

I'm not arguing there aren't troops over there who feel like we shouldn't be there. There's quite a few who signed up several years ago thinking they'd get their GI Bill grants, do some weekend mock combat duty at Ft. Hood, and get on with their lives.

All but one of the people I know over there are (or are going to be) career military types. I guess you can probably argue their perspectives are different from some of the grunts who just planned on the 4 year tour and thanks for my GI Bill loan. Fair enough.


It's simple. It's cowardly, just like your administration, who wouldn't send their own or have never fought anything themselves, but they are so quick to support others to go fight and die in a war thet You want.

It's easy to evade the truth by labeling me a "typical liberal". You don't want to abandon Your own life, but you're ok with others losing theirs to fight a phony illegal war for You? Yea, that's cowardly.

Hey AHF, read my sig.

Couple of things here...

First, I'd like to point out that McCain's own son has joined the military. I guess you're probably criticizing Bush and Cheney though? Let's see, Bush has got two daughters who are far from soldier caliber unless you're looking for some PR reps. Cheney? Same for him. I think his *youngest* child is in the mid-30s, which is basically past enlistment.

But hey, call them out, you look like a bad ass to your liberal brethren for doing so, and you can beat off to your post at night.

As for me, like I said - you've got no problem wishing I abandon my life to go sign up, but I don't see you signing up for your beliefs. Just hiding behind the skirt of liberal criticism. Yay for you.

I'm not going to get into it on a public board, but my dad's a Vietnam vet, and he and I made a deal when I was very young about the military. As I respect him more than I do pretty much any other human being on the face of this earth, I'm going to live and honor his request. Not just about the military, but what he's asked of me as a person.

If you've got a problem with that, I don't really know what else to say other than fuck off.

And seeings you seem to think that you know how I feel about shit... I'm not okay with anyone losing their lives over a phony war.

BUT....

First, it's not a phony war, although that is a cute liberal saying these days. More power to your pansy asses.

Second, I'd sign up in a minute, even against my father's wishes, if I knew it meant my children wouldn't have to face a world wide conflict against radical Islam, which, like it or not, is where we're headed.

And we're not headed there because of what Pres. Bush has done since he got into office. We're headed there because it's the only path in the future of radical Islam, and one that we're going to have to fight whether we like it or not.

So our armed forces can either step up now and do what needs to be done, or both yours, mine, and our childrens generation will be paying the ultimate price for it.

History will show two things, if I'm unfortunately right:

1. George W. Bush was right for taking the fight to radical Islam.

2. We don't currently have the stomach to do what needs to be done, largely due to the pacifistic left, and we'll end up suffering even greater losses going down the path we're going down now to stop it than if we'd deal with it now.

[Good 'N Plenty]

I have a question for the "I don't have a problem with it" crowd. Have any of you ever served in the military? I'm guessing the answer is no.

I served honorably and have seen combat and like I said before, I don't have a problem with it.

[MannyIsGod]

You can blame the 'pacifcist left' all you want, but the blame is going to lie soley at the feet of the administration when history is done with things. There was plenty of bipartisan support in DC untill we went on a fools errands for WoMD, errr Deomcracy, errr (insert new reason here) in Iraq.

There is still plenty of across the board support for the war on terror, but very few people are left who see what we are currently doing in Iraq as furthering that goal. Do not mistake that for pacificism. I know its cute to sit back and say that anyone who is against the war in Iraq is obviously appeasing terrorists, but the fact remains that this administration keeps fucking up in Iraq. Bush can't even get his own priorities straight, but then again he never was for staying the course, was he?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

That's a fucking stupid argument. It's all the left's fault we can't do what needs to done? Why must it be partisan? Why can't we just acknowledge that we'll never understand these people which directly affects our ability to change them and their societal values? It's a hornet's nest, has always been a hornet's nest and, honestly, up to this point all we've done is whack it with a stick, IMO.

Save the Left/Right bullshit for the politicians and their agendas, which has nothing to do with what they say and everything to do with winning elections.

[Good 'N Plenty]

First, it's not a phony war, although that is a cute liberal saying these days. More power to your pansy asses.

Second, I'd sign up in a minute, even against my father's wishes, if I knew it meant my children wouldn't have to face a world wide conflict against radical Islam, which, like it or not, is where we're headed.

And we're not headed there because of what Pres. Bush has done since he got into office. We're headed there because it's the only path in the future of radical Islam, and one that we're going to have to fight whether we like it or not.


How can you call somebody a "pansy ass" yet you yourself are not willing to go fight yourself? Sounds pretty pansy ass to me.

Oh, and I'm no liberal.

[SA210]

Couple of things here...First, I'd like to point out that McCain's own son has joined the military.
Wow, you named one. Whoop-dee-doo! Is he in Iraq, by the way?



I guess you're probably criticizing Bush and Cheney though? Let's see, Bush has got two daughters who are far from soldier caliber unless you're looking for some PR reps. Cheney? Same for him. I think his *youngest* child is in the mid-30s, which is basically past enlistment.

But hey, call them out, you look like a bad ass to your liberal brethren for doing so, and you can beat off to your post at night.
Why did they go AWOL and get deferments when it was their time to fight for America?


As for me, like I said - you've got no problem wishing I abandon my life to go sign up, but I don't see you signing up for your beliefs. Just hiding behind the skirt of liberal criticism. Yay for you.
Actually, I don't want you to go fight and die, just pointing out the hypocrite that you are for wanting others to fight Your war. And I have many of my beliefs that I sign up for. I'm against this illegal phony war and I protest it everyday.


I'm not going to get into it on a public board, but my dad's a Vietnam vet, and he and I made a deal when I was very young about the military. As I respect him more than I do pretty much any other human being on the face of this earth, I'm going to live and honor his request. Not just about the military, but what he's asked of me as a person.:sleep


If you've got a problem with that, I don't really know what else to say other than fuck off. And seeings you seem to think that you know how I feel about shit... I'm not okay with anyone losing their lives over a phony war.
Really? But thousands are dying in this phony war, and you want it to stay the course. Do you understand that? Thousands of people have died needlessly. Thousands of innocent people on both sides, for what!

We are hated now by most of the world, with no support.


First, it's not a phony war, although that is a cute liberal saying these days. More power to your pansy asses.
More than half the country disagrees with you.



Second, I'd sign up in a minute, even against my father's wishes, if I knew it meant my children wouldn't have to face a world wide conflict against radical Islam, which, like it or not, is where we're headed.

Talk is cheap. I think our children could be in danger now because Your president overlooked North Korea, you know, the ones that actually do have WMD's.


And we're not headed there because of what Pres. Bush has done since he got into office.
Bush has hurt us severely and a great many others from what he has done. He needs to be impeached.

[Jimcs50]

Bush does not want the US populace to know what it going on in Iraq. This war is a huge mistake, and the more negative coverage that is out there just adds fuel to the anti war populace, which is growing every month. If Bush had his way, there would be no media anywhere near Iraq. He wants our heads to be in the sand, so he can run his war with impunity.

What is happening in Afghanistan now?

It is going back to the way it was 5 yrs ago, prior to 911. Why? Because Bush deemed that Iraq was more important, and he has almost cut our military to nothing but a token presense. Why? Because we can not make money in Afghanistan, unless we get into the Opium trade.

You Bush backers need to wake up, your naivete is quite disconcerting.

[clambake]

Back to the tape.

It's shows that we have no cohesive plan for success. It shows their capabilites are more fluid than ours. They can pick us off at will, and are. Bush has turned our kids into skeet, with their heads on a swivel.

Maybe if Bush and Cheney hadn't dodged the military they could have understood the consequences of their actions.

[SA210]

Maybe if Bush and Cheney hadn't dodged the military they could have understood the consequences of their actions.
Bingo!

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Damn liberal media.



CNN, NPR refuse ads for assassination film
Controversial film caused stir at Toronto Film Festival
Reuters

Updated: 2:17 p.m. ET Oct 24, 2006

LOS ANGELES - Two major U.S. news outlets, CNN and National Public Radio, will not air advertisements for a controversial movie depicting the assassination of President Bush, citing the film’s content, network spokeswomen said Tuesday.

The movie, “Death of a President,” caused a stir at the Toronto Film Festival in September where it debuted, and two major U.S. theater chains have declined to screen the movie when it debuts in the United States Friday.

“CNN has decided not to take the ad because of the extreme nature of the movie’s subject matter,” the cable television network said in a statement.

A spokeswoman declined to comment beyond the statement. The network has reported about the movie in recent months.

NPR will not run sponsor announcements to avoid any notion that it was reporting about the movie because it took the sponsorships, an NPR spokeswoman said.

“The movie is fairly likely to generate significant controversy and we’ll cover it as a news story,” said spokeswoman Andi Sporkin. “To take a sponsorship spot would raise questions and cause confusion” among listeners.

“Death of a President” is told like a documentary that tracks the political drama behind an investigation into Bush’s murder in October 2007.

The film, which was directed by Britain’s Gabriel Range, uses digital technology to depict Bush being gunned down, and its detractors have criticized the display of murdering a sitting president.

Its distributors at Newmarket Films say the film ultimately tries to send audiences an anti-violence message and Newmarket noted many major newspapers such as The New York Times and Washington Post have run ads.

“’Death of a President’ is the opposite of a call for violence,” Newmarket co-founder Chris Ball said in a statement. ”It’s a powerfully cautionary tale about the pernicious effects of violence.”

Earlier this month, the U.S. No. 1 theater chain Regal Entertainment Group and a smaller competitor, Cinemark USA, said they would not screen the movie.

About 100 local and art-house venues around the country will screen the film at its debut.

Copyright 2006 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15402969/