Active-Duty Troops Launch Campaign to End U.S. Occupation of Iraq

[SA210]

October 23rd, 2006 7:13 pm
Active-Duty Troops Launch Campaign to Press Congress to End U.S. Occupation of Iraq

65 Members to Send "Appeals for Redress" Under the Military Whistle-blower Protection Act

News Advisory (http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=74796):

For the first time since the U.S. invasion of Iraq, active- duty members of the military are asking Members of Congress to end the U.S. occupation of Iraq and bring American soldiers home.

Sixty-five active-duty members have sent Appeals for Redress to Members of Congress. Three of these people (including two who served in Iraq) and their attorney will speak about this on Wednesday, Oct. 25 at 11 a.m. EDT.

Under the Military Whistle-Blower Protection Act (DOD directive 7050.6), active-duty military, National Guard and Reservists can file and send a protected communication to a Member of Congress regarding any subject without reprisal.

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Way to go troops. Let's bring our boys home. :tu

[Trainwreck2100]

Nothing a "suicide bomber" can't fix

[JoeChalupa]

Wow.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, I heard about this. Stunning stuff, really. Troops have to be really serious and organized to spring this in October.

[SA210]

October 25th, 2006 1:26 pm
Grass-Roots Group of Troops Petitions Congress for Pullout From Iraq

By Ann Scott Tyson / Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/24/AR2006102401154.html?nav=rss_nation/special)

More than 100 U.S. service members have signed a rare appeal urging Congress to support the "prompt withdrawal" of all American troops and bases from Iraq, organizers said yesterday.

"Staying in Iraq will not work and is not worth the price. It is time for U.S. troops to come home," reads the statement of a small grass-roots group of active-duty military personnel and reservists that says it aims to give U.S. military members a voice in Iraq war policy.

"As a patriotic American proud to serve the nation in uniform, I respectfully urge my political leaders in Congress to support the prompt withdrawal of American military forces and bases from Iraq," it reads. The group, which aims to collect 2,000 signatures and deliver the message to Congress in January, is sponsored by antiwar activists including Iraq Veterans Against the War, Veterans for Peace and Military Families Speak Out.

The unusual appeal -- the first of its kind in the Iraq war, organizers say -- makes use of a legal protection afforded by the Military Whistle-Blower Protection Act, which provides that members of the military, acting in their capacity as citizens, can send a protected communication to Congress without reprisal.

"Just because you put on the uniform of our country doesn't mean you've given up your rights as a citizen," said J.E. McNeil, a lawyer for the group and executive director for the Center on Conscience & War, a Washington organization that protects the rights of conscientious objectors.

But the service members can exercise this right only while off duty and out of uniform, and they must otherwise make clear they are not speaking for the military. In addition, they cannot say anything disrespectful about their commanders, including the president, McNeil said.

Navy Seaman Jonathan Hutto of Atlanta was the first service member to sign the appeal.

"I hear discussions every day among my shipmates about the war in Iraq and how it doesn't make any sense at this point," said Hutto, who is based in Norfolk and served from September 2005 until March on a ship off Iraq's coast. "There is no victory in sight, and war is still inevitable." He said he opposes the war because of its human and economic tolls, adding that the billions of dollars should be spent on jobs and education at home.

Marine Corps Sgt. Liam Madden, 22, served in Iraq's restive Anbar province from September 2004 until February 2005 and found his opposition to the war intensified after he returned to the United States. "I don't think any more Iraqis or Americans should die because of the U.S. occupation," he said, expressing disappointment that Iraqi elections in January 2005 did not lead to a decline in violence.

"I think some things are worth fighting for, I just don't feel Iraq is one of them," said Madden, of Bellows Falls, Vt. The Quantico-based Marine plans to leave the service to attend college in January.

Madden said he and Hutton met and learned of the vehicle for expressing their views to Congress when they attended a lecture at the YMCA in Norfolk by David Cortright, the author of "Soldiers in Revolt: GI Resistance During the Vietnam War."

Staff researcher Julie Tate contributed to this report.

[RandomGuy]

Another symptom of a wider malaise.

[1369]

100 members out of an estimated 1.4 million active duty troops really speaks for the majority opinion of the military? Granted, to put their careers on the line (If they ever intended to have one) takes courage, but I don't believe they speak for the military as a whole.

[JoeChalupa]

I saw the interview with one of the Marines on MSNBC and I tell you what. I commend the young man for having the balls to speak out. I may be a progressive, liberal to some, but when I was serving I lived and breathed Marine Corps.

Major juevos.

[ChumpDumper]

100 members out of an estimated 1.4 million active duty troops really speaks for the majority opinion of the military? Granted, to put their careers on the line (If they ever intended to have one) takes courage, but I don't believe they speak for the military as a whole.No one is saying they do. The mere fact they have come out is noteworthy, and you have to realize even this behavior is subject to limitations.

[JoeChalupa]

I concur.

[1369]

I may be a progressive, liberal to some, but when I was serving I lived and breathed Marine Corps.

Well yea, but did the alternative of doing about a zillion "mountain climbers" seem the better option? :lol

[T Park]

BRave, gutsy.

But if anyone thbinks just going home literally tommarow fixes things, then, uh yeah ok.

[clambake]

Where are all the republicans calling them chickenshit pussies?

It doesn't nessesarily mean they don't want a career in the military. Maybe they don't see the logic or agree with the reasons for this mission.

[George Gervin's Afro]

As predictable as the sun rising in the east the GOP chickenhawks will come out and criticize these folks... bank on it.

[T Park]

Where are all the republicans calling them chickenshit pussies?

It doesn't nessesarily mean they don't want a career in the military. Maybe they don't see the logic or agree with the reasons for this mission.

Want to keep painting with broad strokes, or do you want to keep within the lines mr partisan.



As predictable as the sun rising in the east the GOP chickenhawks will come out and criticize these folks... bank on it

As predictable as the sun lowering in the west, this too has become partisan fodder.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, the neoconbots aren't logged in. They need to check some blogs before they know what to think.

[T Park]

I am a supposed Neocon, so do we still want to keep painting?

[clambake]

So if they don't agree with this mission they don't deserve to be in the military?

I think I know where you stand.

[1369]

So if they don't agree with this mission they don't deserve to be in the military?

Troops don't make policy, they are policy (Yes, they are compelled to resist if they believe that they are executing an unlawful order, so spare me that arguement).

[clambake]

I'll spare you that, but there is a question as to whether this is a lawful endeavour.

[Nbadan]

Now the numbers grown to 200

U.S. troops on active duty call for Iraq withdrawal
47 minutes ago


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - More than 200 active duty U.S. armed service members, fed up with the war in Iraq, have joined an unusual protest calling for withdrawal of U.S. troops from the country, organizers said on Wednesday.

The campaign, called the Appeal for Redress from the War in Iraq, is the first of its kind in the Iraq war and takes advantage of Defense Department rules allowing active duty troops to express personal opinions to members of Congress without fear of retaliation, organizers said.

"As a patriotic American proud to serve the nation in uniform, I respectfully urge my political leaders in Congress to support the prompt withdrawal of all American military forces and bases from Iraq," states the appeal posted on the campaign's Web site at www.appealforredress.org .

"Staying in Iraq will not work and is not worth the price. It is time for U.S. troops to come home," it adds.

The Web site allows service members to sign the appeal that will be presented to members of Congress. Organizers said the number of signatories has climbed from 65 to 219 since the appeal was posted a few days ago and Wednesday when it was publicly launched. There are 140,000 U.S. troops in Iraq.

[ChumpDumper]

I am a supposed Neocon, so do we still want to keep painting?I don't consider you one.

[xrayzebra]

OMG, here we go.....get on the merry-go-round and
lets all go for a spin. SA210, boutons and dan and God
only knows who is in seventh heaven.

Bring me home.........isn't there a song that goes by
that title.

[boutons_]

These mutineers have real balls. They're basically ending their military careers, a la Shinsheki.

That said, we absolutely have to win in Iraq.

dubya and dickhead are fucking lying, again, when they say they are winning.

Only 20% of US think the US is winning, but of course, the media is causing dubya/dickhead/rummy to fuck up Iraq.

[xrayzebra]

boutons, you have lost your war.

I have won mine. We haven't lost a battle yet?

People like you are the losers. Like Viet Nam. Your
group made our country the losers. And over a
million people lost their lives AFTER we got out of the
war and the same will happen again.

You folks say you want freedom for people, but you
wont support you country to fight for it.

You want the Taliban back in charge? Where women
are beaten in public or stoned to death? Is that what
you want?

Can you tell me what you do want?

Can you tell me what the dimm-o-craps want?

Can you tell me that you don't support your country?

I will give you a sprout. You are a loyal American,
support your country and the troops. But if so:
The I question your judgement. And any like you.

[clambake]

Everybody is on board with Afghanistan.

W really fucked us into Iraq.

[xrayzebra]

^^How?

[clambake]

How? Don't know what your asking but I'll try.

1. I don't recall any Taliban sympathy in here.

2. Our kids are coming home in boxes because of a war we were tricked into fighting.

[ChumpDumper]

X, the Taliban are not in Iraq.

Are you really this stupid?

[clambake]

Xray seems a little all over the place today. Maybe we should back off.

[xrayzebra]

^^
There not? I didn't know that. Hmmmmm, terrorist
are not terrorist anymore. Gee you could have fooled me.

Who were the Taliban, pray tell. Just those in
Afganistan? Taliban are Muslims/terrorist who took
over a country and attempting to do so again.

But what does it matter to you. Everyone over their
is right and we are wrong. So live your own world.
You know nothing about history or current affairs, just
that Bush is wrong. The dimm-o-craps are right and
if we get out of their everything will be right with the
world. You know like the 90's. And ignore all that
went on then. Cause it ruins you argument.

[johnsmith]

I watched an interview on CNN about an hour ago on this subject (I went home for a LOOOONNNNNGGGG lunch), they had one of the guys that was organizing this thing who serves in the Navy and was very clear that he actually hadn't ever been in Iraq but rather on a boat that could see Iraq (and I'm not downplaying the role of the Navy in Iraq, it's just what he said). They also had a guy from the army that has served one term in Afghanistan and two in Iraq and is now home for good.

Basically, the dude in the Army said, it's not as bad as it looks on TV, and that most everyone he knows is reinlisting.

Dude in the Navy said that it has stretched our military too thin.

Dude in the Army said that if dude in the Navy had ever actually set foot in Iraq that he would know why we are there.

Dude in the Navy then pimped the website.

Sweet, now we have our military branches mad at eachother.

[clambake]

The people from our administration that are over there say everything is fine.

Are you suggesting that they are lying?

[ChumpDumper]

Who were the Taliban, pray tell. Just those in
Afganistan?Yes, dumbass.
Taliban are Muslims/terrorist who took
over a country and attempting to do so again. Yeah, AFGHANISTAN. Go look at a map, idiot.
But what does it matter to you. Everyone over their
is right and we are wrong.You're wrong, that's for sure.
You know nothing about history or current affairsYou think Saddam was a Taliban, don't you?
The dimm-o-craps are rightNah, they just haven't had a chance to be as spectacularly wrong as the Republicans in Iraq.

[1369]

Sweet, now we have our military branches mad at eachother.

Trust me, that's ALWAYS been the case. Any self-respecting squid, doggie or wing-wiper would agree.

[johnsmith]

Trust me, that's ALWAYS been the case. Any self-respecting squid, doggie or wing-wiper would agree.


Yeah, but they usually don't let it spill over into the media...........at least I can't remember it happening.

[johnsmith]

^^ Muslims/terrorist


Muslim doesn't equal terrorist.

[clambake]

So, Navy guys a loser, huh? Doesn't know what he's talking about?

Maybe he helps to transport our kids laying in boxes.

Maybe his opinions are based on numbers.

[johnsmith]

So, Navy guys a loser, huh? Doesn't know what he's talking about?

Maybe he helps to transport our kids laying in boxes.

Maybe his opinions are based on numbers.


I would assume that you are talking to me because I'm the one that posted in regards to the interview...........so, when did I say he was a loser? When did I say he didn't know what he was talking about?

When did I imply anything about the interview other then to just tell you what was said?

Did it hit a nerve?

[clambake]

Not really.

YOu did make sure to say that he said military streched too thin. That he'd never been on the ground, can only see it from a boat. pimped a website. Good question would be why interview a navy guy when 200 plus are on the ground and speaking out against the war.

[johnsmith]

Not really.

YOu did make sure to say that he said military streched too thin. That he'd never been on the ground, can only see it from a boat. pimped a website. Good question would be why interview a navy guy when 200 plus are on the ground and speaking out against the war.


This guy is one of the chief organizers of the "movement", I'd say that was a pretty good reason to interview him wouldn't you?

[clambake]

He's not alone. There has been more than one interview today, and several last night.

Like I said, maybe he brings our kids home and uses numbers to form opinions.

Numbers don't lie when your counting the dead.

[johnsmith]

He's not alone. There has been more than one interview today, and several last night.

Like I said, maybe he brings our kids home and uses numbers to form opinions.

Numbers don't lie when your counting the dead.


Look, I'm not trying to say anything negative about these troops doing this, if anyone deserves to have a voice, it's the people that we are sending over there. I was really just trying to tell everyone how the interview went.

If it seems like I was implying that the guy from the Navy did a shitty job in the interview, it's because he did, it doesn't mean I feel one way or the other about this topic.

And I agree, numbers don't lie, that job is left up to our right and left wing elected politicians.

[clambake]

Fair and balanced. Good response.

P.S. I don't want my son anywhere near these fuckups in DC.

[xrayzebra]

Idiot here. Tell you what. I have ask the questions before and no one on the
the other side wants to answer.

Who is the enemy. Taliban/Muslims? Not the same? explain. I am open to learning.
Who has said the Taliban was wrong on this board.

How are things going to change if we leave? Peace every after? Explain?

Come on, in your own words, not some dumb article, how are things going to change.

Explain to me:

How the barracks in Saudi Arabia didn't get bombed.

How the WTC didn't get bombed in 1993 and 2001 didn't occur?

How a peace mission where I troops were dragged thru the streets didn't didn't happen>

How the bombing of our ship, on a goodwill visit, didn't occur?

Please I am just an old conservative. These are only a few things I can remember
off the top of my head.

[Ocotillo]

Who is the enemy. Taliban/Muslims? Not the same? explain. I am open to learning.

The Taliban is an extreme group within Islam that had control of Afghanistan. The elected not to cooperate with us by handing over OBL post 9/11 so we went into Afghanistan and threw them out of power and pursued al Quada for awhile. Then President ADD decided to wage war with a secular Muslim in a country totally unrelated to the Taliban, al Quada, 9/11 or Osama Bin Laden.


How are things going to change if we leave? Peace every after? Explain?

Peace ever after, no. Whoever has the most firepower will end up running the country probably as an Islamic theocracy after much death and carnage.


Come on, in your own words, not some dumb article, how are things going to change.

Quite simple, we will be able to expend our resources on the terrorists who are responsible for 9/11. We will be able to remove 130,000 of our military from a civil war where nothing but chaos is going on with no progress in fighting terrorism. When somethings not working, you change.


Explain to me:

How the barracks in Saudi Arabia didn't get bombed.

How the WTC didn't get bombed in 1993 and 2001 didn't occur?

How a peace mission where I troops were dragged thru the streets didn't didn't happen>

How the bombing of our ship, on a goodwill visit, didn't occur?

Please I am just an old conservative. These are only a few things I can remember
off the top of my head.

None of those were done by Saddam or Iraqis. You go after those that done it.

[clambake]

Seriously X, are you OK? Not a joke. I'm a little concerned.

I have to leave but will try to check back later, might be tomorrow.

[xrayzebra]

The Taliban is an extreme group within Islam that had control of Afghanistan. The elected not to cooperate with us by handing over OBL post 9/11 so we went into Afghanistan and threw them out of power and pursued al Quada for awhile. Then President ADD decided to wage war with a secular Muslim in a country totally unrelated to the Taliban, al Quada, 9/11 or Osama Bin Laden.


Peace ever after, no. Whoever has the most firepower will end up running the country probably as an Islamic theocracy after much death and carnage.



Quite simple, we will be able to expend our resources on the terrorists who are responsible for 9/11. We will be able to remove 130,000 of our military from a civil war where nothing but chaos is going on with no progress in fighting terrorism. When somethings not working, you change.



None of those were done by Saddam or Iraqis. You go after those that done it.


Well live and learn. You still haven't answered all the questions. Well
really you have chosen to ignore some evidence. But no matter.
I already knew the answer I would be given.

For goodness sakes don't dig below the popular news to find out what
is really going on.

That is one of the benefits of retirement. You Have time to look beyond
the 30 minutes devoted to "News"(?). What a joke

[xrayzebra]

Seriously X, are you OK? Not a joke. I'm a little concerned.

I have to leave but will try to check back later, might be tomorrow.

I am fine, just a little ticked off at the younger generation. I really do like
seafood, but clams......yeeeeeech......

I used to use clams for bait........just kidding about the name. Not about
the bait....and where....on the Brazos river.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'd have to read more on it to really form a strong opinion one way or another.

I do laugh at the folks who are already dogging on anyone who criticizes these as neocon hacks, etc.

I'm sure there's absolutely no politics involved with these guys at all, and I'm sure none will show up at a press conference with a democrat critical of Bush :rolleyes

[PixelPusher]

It's not just Privates and Sargeants anymore...



U.S. generals call for Democratic takeover (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/10/25/generals/)

Disgusted with the leadership of the Iraq war, two retired generals say the GOP must go. Plus: More than 100 current military personnel join a campaign to get the U.S. out of Iraq -- now.

By Mark Benjamin

Oct. 25, 2006 | WASHINGTON -- Two retired senior Army generals, who served in Iraq and previously voted Republican, are now openly endorsing a Democratic takeover of Congress. The generals, and an active-duty senior military official, told Salon in separate interviews that they believe a Democratic victory will help reverse course from what they consider to be a disastrous Bush administration policy in Iraq. The two retired generals, Maj. Gen. John Batiste and Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton, first openly criticized the handling of the war last spring, when they called for the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

"The best thing that can happen right now is for one or both of our houses to go Democratic so we can have some oversight," Batiste, who led the Army's 1st Infantry Division in Iraq in 2004 and 2005, told Salon. Batiste describes himself as a "lifelong Republican." But now, he said, "It is time for a change."

Eaton, who was in charge of training the Iraqi military from 2003 to 2004, agrees that Democratic control of Congress could be the best way to wrest control from the Bush administration and steer the United States away from a gravely flawed strategy in Iraq. "The way out that I see is to hand the House and the Senate to the Democrats and get this thing turned around," Eaton explained, adding that such sentiment is growing among retired and active-duty military leaders. "Most of us see two more years of the same if the Republicans stay in power," he said. He also noted, "You could not have tortured me enough to vote for Mr. Kerry or Mr. Gore, but I'm not at all thrilled with who I did vote for."

An active-duty senior military official who also served in Iraq said that, among a surprising number of his otherwise "very conservative" colleagues, there is hope that Democrats will gain control of Congress. "I will tell you, in the circles I talk to, the only way to enable or enact change is to change the leadership," he said.

Political experts say there is no evidence of a large exodus of military voters from the GOP, and it remains unclear how Iraq will affect military voters at the polls. Particularly among officers and the top brass, the military has long been heavily Republican. President Bush led John Kerry 73 percent to 18 percent just prior to the 2004 election in a Military Times poll, which largely surveyed higher ranking and career members of the military. Three separate studies in the past decade, including one due in dissertation form from Columbia University next spring, have put the ratio of Republicans to Democrats in the upper ranks of the military at 8-to-1.

But last spring a handful of retired commanders shook the military establishment to its core by publicly calling for the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. And palpable frustration and anger among officers over the Bush administration's Iraq strategy clearly is driving some to do what was previously unthinkable: switch their allegiance to the Democratic Party, at least for the time being.

That may also be the case among the rank and file. As Salon reported recently, there are signs that support for Bush and the GOP is eroding in a Virginia congressional district saturated with military voters. Salon has also learned that more than 100 current members of the military have now joined a campaign formally appealing to Congress to immediately withdraw U.S. forces from Iraq.

"The rest of us still in uniform cannot publicly articulate our own concerns, but there is a whole bunch of people out there who feel [this] way," said the active-duty senior military official. When asked if he was a Republican, he responded, "I was in the past." He railed against the Bush administration's head-in-the-sand approach to the war. "What do we have today? Holy shit. Now you have sectarian violence? That is a new term, by the way," the official fumed, emphasizing that before the war and even well into a volatile occupation nobody in the Bush administration "would even believe there would be an insurgency."

It's not that the current and former military leaders are suddenly eager to see liberal House Democratic leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi take more power in Congress if the Democrats win control. Instead, the embrace of the Democrats, they say, is purely pragmatic. They hope the Democrats will succeed where Republicans failed and conduct critical oversight to help the Bush administration fix its stalled and failing strategy for Iraq. "Over five years our Congress has abrogated [its] oversight responsibilities," Batiste said. "They have not held serious hearings about this war."

The military leaders also say that Democrats might be willing to put up the massive infusion of cash they believe will be required to fix a military stretched thin, and to permanently increase the size of the Army. In July 2005, Sen. Joseph Lieberman and Sen. Hillary Clinton introduced a bill that would boost the Army by 100,000 soldiers. In the House, Pennsylvania's John Murtha and Missouri's Ike Skelton, ranking Democrats in military matters, have also indicated support for a beefed-up military. While the Republican-controlled Congress passed legislation temporarily increasing the size of the Army, a permanent move in that direction is anathema to Rumsfeld -- who has battled for a smaller, ever more technology-dependent military.

The Bush administration's handling of the war, meanwhile, has come under extraordinary fire from within the military. More than 100 service members, including those on active duty and members of the Reserves, have now sent "appeals for redress" to members of Congress asking for the "prompt withdrawal of all American military forces and bases from Iraq." The appeals are a form letter designed to air a complaint without running afoul of official regulations restricting what members of the military can say. Although they are sent individually, the unusual wave of appeals has been organized by antiwar groups including Iraq Veterans Against the War, Military Families Speak Out and Veterans for Peace.

It appears to be one of the first examples of an organized effort by active-duty and reservist military members in opposition to the war in Iraq. It also signals a level of desperation -- since those troops who contacted Congress have potentially invited retribution from their superiors and put their military careers at risk. "It is significant because it is a clear voice from people who are dedicated to the military and dedicated to service, but not dedicated to this war," said J.E. McNeil, the executive director at the Center on Conscience & War who is providing some legal advice to those participating. "For every one of those guys," McNeil claimed, "there are 2,000 or 3,000 guys who are not willing to go public like this. These men and women represent the tip of the iceberg."

Army Lt. Col. Brian Maka, a Pentagon spokesman, said he was unaware of the appeals for redress, and declined to comment further.

A prompt withdrawal of troops, which some Democrats have called for, is not part of the major strategic overhaul sought by Batiste and Eaton. But the retired generals are hoping that a Democratic-controlled Congress can push back more forcefully against President Bush, who continues to argue in favor of establishing democracy in Iraq, and against partitioning the country along sectarian lines. Some in the military say that partitioning the country may now be the only hope of success in some form -- a plan aired publicly by Sen. Joe Biden in May and backed by a number of Democrats.

"It will never be democracy," Batiste said, pointing to the military's several years of experience battling the insurgency in Iraq. Democracy, he said, simply runs counter to the powerful tribal and religious fault lines of Iraqi society. But he thinks that the country might still be successfully carved up among the Shiites, the Sunnis and the Kurds. Sharing oil resources might seal the deal, Batiste said, and it could be spun as "some form of representative government" -- if not a democracy.

"Either partition it into three countries or go into a loose confederation and have assurances on the sharing of natural resources," Eaton agreed. "I think that is the best we can get out of this deal now."

It's too early to tell whether the acute dissatisfaction with Republicans will have staying power, says Stephen Wayne, a professor of government at Georgetown University who has lectured at West Point. But Wayne says it reflects real and widespread disappointment among military officers at the Bush administration's wrongheaded approach. "I think in the short run, you are seeing anger" at the Bush administration, he explained. The uniformed officers "have been completely marginalized" by an administration that refuses to take their advice.

Batiste said he was tormented by reading daily casualty reports and knowing that the deaths are, in part, the result of a bungled, backward strategy that focuses on lofty but unattainable goals. But while he and others admit they have no particular love for the Democrats, they see the party as perhaps their last, best hope of reaping anything other than more death and destruction in Iraq.

[ChumpDumper]

Who is the enemy. Taliban/Muslims? Not the same? explain. I am open to learning.
Who has said the Taliban was wrong on this board.

For goodness sakes don't dig below the popular news to find out what
is really going on.

That is one of the benefits of retirement. You Have time to look beyond
the 30 minutes devoted to "News"(?). What a jokeOk, Xray, as flabergasted as I am about your rudimentary understanding of the situation in the mideast, I do believe you to be a man of your word.

If you do have the time and are inclined to learn as you say, I ask you to check out this link:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/taliban/

You can watch the entire program using the links on the right of the page and read as much as you like at your convenience. I think you'll be stunned at just how complex the situation with the Taliban is -- and keep in mind it has pretty much nothing to do with the conflict in Iraq as it is today.

[JoeChalupa]

We used to get in fights with the Army guys all the time...and kicked their asses.

[johnsmith]

Again, Muslim doesn't equal terrorist.

That is all.

[RandomGuy]

Well, the neoconbots aren't logged in. They need to check some blogs before they know what to think.


Truer words are rarely spoken here.

[whottt]

I just want to make sure I have a finger on the Dem POV here before commenting...

Are you Dems saying that you agree with the stance of these quitt..er troops?

That we should just pull out and let the chips fall where they may?

Just let the suicide bombers, militant Islamacists etc. take over the country?

Is that what ya'll are saying? I just need to know so I'll know how much I have to lower my IQ in an attempt to bash through the obtuseness and historical ignorance that cements your dense fucking skulls...

[clambake]

so there quitt..ers? their opinions are meaningless?

Chips ARE falling where they may.

Bombers and islamist are going to take over the country. We've started a complete terrorist manufacturing plant by invading Iraq and this production line will continue to crank them out.

These guys are questioning the strategy and the reasons for being there in the first place.

Maybe they just want to get one word in before they come home in a box.

[whottt]

Yes or no? Dumbass...

[clambake]

Counting down to another whott rant. What do you care what I think? Why don't go fight for what you believe in?

[SA210]

these quitt..er troops?
Why does whottt hate the troops?

[whottt]

Counting down to another whott rant.

How dare my rants interrupt a bunch of hysterical(and fucking stupid) dipshits...


What do you care what I think?

Because you replied to me dipshit...


Why don't go fight for what you believe in?

Why don't you? I hear Al Qaeda is much easier to get into than the US military...I hear Al Qaeda always has openings for stupid libs to get down on their knees and suck terrorist cock..


I see answering a simple yes or no question is too much of a mental challenge, which means you are even stupider than I thought...don't bother replying...just continue along your own little stupid path, and try to not vote will you?

[whottt]

Why does whottt hate the troops?

Why is it that I can't get a simple yes or no answer to a simple question?

Do you agree with them, or not?

[clambake]

Better yet, why don't you tell us that "fairy tale" of how some dead surgeon stands in your way of "Being all that you can be".

All or nothing moron.

[whottt]

*suckle slurp*

[clambake]

Why don't you go trade places with anyone of our kids.

I don't want any harm to come to you.

I don't want you to come home in a box, void of honor and cloaked in secrecy.

[johnsmith]

Why don't you go trade places with anyone of our kids.

I don't want any harm to come to you.

I don't want you to come home in a box, void of honor and cloaked in secrecy.


How come you haven't answered?

[whottt]

Yes or no?

We should just leave?



That'll fix things? Problem solved?

That belief is enormously ignorant....


Stop trying to hide behind the troops and have the balls to put your naive and ignorant opinion out there in all it's glory...

[clambake]

Because its empty of all the ethical and important questions that took us to Iraq.

[whottt]

Because its empty of all the ethical and important questions that took us to Iraq.


Sincerely,

The point of this thread.

[johnsmith]

Because its empty of all the ethical and important questions that took us to Iraq.


I don't think so. Why are the liberals going around complaining about the reasons we got into the war but when asked that question, they don't seem to have an opinion? (just for arguments sake by the way).

[johnsmith]

I'll add to the question by the way, should we pull our troops out of Kosovo that are still there on peace keeping missions?

[clambake]

My opinion is we can't leave, and bush should be exiled to Bahgdad, since we can't kill him.

Clear enough?

[whottt]

I don't think so. Why are the liberals going around complaining about the reasons we got into the war but when asked that question, they don't seem to have an opinion? (just for arguments sake by the way).


Um...that is the modern Democratic Party. They have no issue, no clear platform, just a bunch of anti-current administration hysteria and sensationalism...

And they wonder why no one takes their opinion on the war seriously... and we are supposed to trust them with a war they think is already lost? These tools can't even figure out how to win the whitehouse, with, according to them, the biggest, dumbass, evil, stupid, etc...man who ever lived currently opposing them.

Iraq is way over their heads. Best for them to just stick a copy of farenheit 911 in the old DVD player and be outraged...it's what they do best.

[whottt]

My opinion is we can't leave,
Clear enough?


How dare you contradict these 200 troops...

Dumbass! Neocon!

[clambake]

I'm just tired of the chickenshit hawks that add up to nothing more than being the champions of the "All talk no walk brigade".

I don't want my son to have to fight for those whose physical capabilities are limited to merely flapping their gums.

If you want to start an illegal war, then tell your story walking.

[whottt]

I'm just tired of the chickenshit hawks that add up to nothing more than being the champions of the "All talk no walk brigade".


And I'm tired of people that don't have any answers doing nothing but bitching and whining gettng in the fucking way of the clearest solution...

I say to you the same thing...go join Al Qaeda...I mean obviously they are winning.


I don't want my son to have to fight for those whose physical capabilities are limited to merely flapping their gums.

Then tell your son not to join the military...and if he does, then shut the fuck up about it.

And if there is a draft...move.


If you want to start an illegal war, then tell your story walking.

Yawn...

[SA210]

Why is it that I can't get a simple yes or no answer to a simple question?

Do you agree with them, or not?
Oh, my beliefs have been clear in this forum. We were lied into a war. Thousands of people's blood are on Bush's hands, and we should pull out and bring our troops home from Iraq.

Seeing as how I actually care about our troops, I would like to get them out of harms way and bring them home. Don't act like you've got people afraid to answer your question.

Let me ask you a question.

What was the reason given for invading Iraq?

[whottt]

So basically, in the middle of a war, you guys want to sit around arguing about whether or not it was right to go into Iraq in the first place, rather than actually win the war? Or pull out?

Thanks...now you know why you lost the last election. And will most likely lose the next one if you do the same thing...

[whottt]

What was the reason given for invading Iraq?


WMD...

And that wins the war exactly, how?

[whottt]

And BTW, I can give a few other reasons for the justification of going into Iraq...including umpteen violations of cease firee agreements...I can also post direct quotes of everyone from Kofi Annan to Bill Clinton also saying Saddam had WMD...

I just didn't do it because I knew what you wanted to hear...so I gave it to you, next?



You see...W didn't get re-elected for his brilliance...he got re-elected because of the stupidity of the Democratic Party...

Because no one but extreme idiots thinks cutting and running is a good idea...so why do you guys hype them up, when it's an opinion that half of you don't even agree with in the first place?

Shit like that is why W is in the Whitehouse...he's the lesser of two stupids...

[Fabbs]

So basically, in the middle of a war, you guys want to sit around arguing about whether or not it was right to go into Iraq in the first place, rather than actually win the war? Or pull out?

Thanks...now you know why you lost the last election. And will most likely lose the next one if you do the same thing...

The U.S. should still be fighting in Vietnam. Trillions should be spent, 100,000+ mainly young men should still be dying.
Same with Iraq. Trillions more should be spent. Thousands more should die.

George Bush the 17th should be president in 2080 as the U.S. population consists of only the Bushes, Chaneys, Haliburtons, and other repugnants while everyone else has been dispatched to the Middle East in the name of Demockracy Building.

Anyone who disagrees is a quitter.

[whottt]

Going into Iraq was a mistake

The solution is to make an even bigger mistake by pulling out.





Brilliant...

[SA210]

And BTW, I can give a few other reasons for the justification of going into Iraq...including umpteen violations of cease firee agreements...I can also post direct quotes of everyone from Kofi Annan to Bill Clinton also saying Saddam had WMD...

I just didn't do it because I knew what you wanted to hear...so I gave it to you, next?



You see...W didn't get re-elected for his brilliance...he got re-elected because of the stupidity of the Democratic Party...

Because no one but extreme idiots thinks cutting and running is a good idea...so why do you guys hype them up, when it's an opinion that half of you don't even agree with in the first place?

Shit like that is why W is in the Whitehouse...he's the lesser of two stupids...
So, are you for stay the course?

[clambake]

You can't make Islamist stop fighting in Iraq. Period. They will never give up. Never.
It's in their DNA. Bush has no clue. None.

If you fracture an arm it has to be set correctly, immediatly.

If you set it wrong, the fracture will never heal properly and always be deformed. You have to do it right after the break.

[whottt]

You can't make Islamist stop fighting in Iraq. Period. They will never give up. Never.
It's in their DNA. Bush has no clue. None.

If you fracture an arm it has to be set correctly, immediatly.

If you set it wrong, the fracture will never heal properly and always be deformed. You have to do it right after the break.


Funny...those Islamcists hated Saddam and hate the rulers of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and Syria...


How come those guys don't have these problems?

[whottt]

So, are you for stay the course?


I asked you first...

[whottt]

You can't make Islamist stop fighting in Iraq. Period. They will never give up. Never.
It's in their DNA. .


Like eatin' watermelon is in the DNA of Blacks?

What a fucking racist...

[clambake]

They will have these problems. Syria? Please.

Islamist hate Saddam? Not what Bush said.

We didn't set the fracture correctly.

[clambake]

Now I'm a racist?

What a tool

[whottt]

Oh, my beliefs have been clear in this forum. We were lied into a war. Thousands of people's blood are on Bush's hands, and we should pull out and bring our troops home from Iraq.


How did the Taliban come to power in Afghanistan?

And how much deadlier would they be if they had been sitting on the world's 3rd largest Oil Reserves?

Running away solves nothing...it damn sure doesn't kill the roach.

[whottt]

They will have these problems. Syria? Please.

Yeah...those guys have only been in power over there for 60 freaking years...



Islamist hate Saddam? Not what Bush said.

Oh yeah....Saddam was a Shia Prophet...

[clambake]

Why do you try to make the taliban into an argument? Nobody disagrees with that.

That must have been one wild skull drop.

[01Snake]

Why do you try to make the taliban into an argument? Nobody disagrees with that.

That must have been one wild skull drop.

Your missing his point....



by a mile.

[clambake]

At least he admits that it's all about oil.

[clambake]

Look, we went there and broke the arm and didn't set the fracture correctly.

[01Snake]

At least he admits that it's all about oil.

Make that two miles.
:lol

[SA210]

I asked you first...
I answered you, I said Yes, we should get our troops out of harms way in Iraq and bring them home.

Now answer my question.

Are you for staying the course?

[clambake]

I'm not missing the point. I agreed. It's about oil. I agree with him.

Hell, Bush told O'Reilly the same thing. Whats the big deal?

[clambake]

The thread is about ending the campaign.

Look, we went in there, broke it, didn't set it right, the fracture is now deformed.

Now were in the terrorist manufacturing business. This quarters numbers are looking quite good.

[ChumpDumper]

I just want to make sure I have a finger on the Dem POV here before commenting...

Are you Dems saying that you agree with the stance of these quitt..er troops?

That we should just pull out and let the chips fall where they may?

Just let the suicide bombers, militant Islamacists etc. take over the country?

Is that what ya'll are saying? I just need to know so I'll know how much I have to lower my IQ in an attempt to bash through the obtuseness and historical ignorance that cements your dense fucking skulls...
It wasn't cutting and running if we left when the elected government asked us to leave.

It won't be cutting and running if they elect to fight a civil war.


What are we supposed to do? Fight it for them?

If they want to fight, let them fight....

Let the muslims kill each other for a change...it'll give all the terrorists something else to do, it'll give them something to attack besides Israel...
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1146204&postcount=10

Let the record show that whottt was for withdrawl before he was against it.

[johnsmith]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1146204&postcount=10

Let the record show that whottt was for withdrawl before he was against it.


That's not saying he's for withdrawal, that's saying that he's for the Iraqi government telling us if they want us in Iraq or not.

[ChumpDumper]

Withdrawl is withdrawl. If the circumstances are right, he is indeed willing to let the chips fall where they may.

[whottt]

Are you for staying the course?


I'm for winning at all costs.....

[whottt]

Chump is such a cunt...not only did he selectively quote from within that post...he also didn't even have the balls to post the actual thread...

I give you:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47614


And yes...I am for withdrawl if the conditions are right(IE we get at least one non fucked up country out of the deal, and a place to station our military to put the heat on Iran), and the nutcases are occupied with each other and not us...

The goal is to give Democracy a foothold in the middle east so all the shitty countries get exposed for what they are...and to pose an extreme military threat to Iran...

That isn't what the soldiers in this article advocate, and that isn't what most of the out of Iraq libs advocate...

[JoeChalupa]

Semper Fi!!!

[ChumpDumper]

I gave the link, whottt. Folks are smart enough to be able to see the whole thread if they wish.
And yes...I am for withdrawl if the conditions are right(IE we get at least one non fucked up country out of the deal, and a place to station our military to put the heat on Iran), and the nutcases are at war with each other...So you're ok with terraists eventually controlling all that oil? That doesn't really reflect a "winning at all costs" view does it? Or is that the cost -- Islamists in control of the majority of Iraq and all that oil for a base in Kurdistan? Is that victory?

[whottt]

Chump...you are a such a stupid fuck. Why am I forced to type because you have a shitty memory and lack the capacity for linear logic?

Who says the Shias are the terrorists?

Look it's real simple you stupid bitch...if the elected goverment asks us to leave I am for leaving and supporting the Kurds and letting the dumbasses fight each other and supporting the less fucked up side...it will divide muslim opinion and fragment the Islamofascism and it puts us in better position to assfuck Iran.

It's not that complicated...and it is not what these soldiers and liberals are advocating.

[ChumpDumper]

But you are leaving open the possibility of the Islamists taking over non-Kurd Iraq. Why are you trying to duck this? If you are arguing it could happen if we pull out now, why could it not happen if we withdraw to the place the Islamists aren't?

[whottt]

But you are leaving open the possibility of the Islamists taking over non-Kurd Iraq. Why are you trying to duck this? If you are arguing it could happen if we pull out now, why could it not happen if we withdraw to the place the Islamists aren't?


#1 If the government we put in place turns hostile to us...then fuck em.

#2. The Lib concept is to totally GTF out...mine isn't. Mine is divide and conquer and still maintain a military presence...both for the purpose of stablizing(in a positive way) at least a portion of the fucked up areas of the middle east, and for putting military pressure on the fucked up regions that remain in power.

It's not the same thing...

Look, I realize that for us to communicate I have to make myself dumber since you obviously can't make yourself smarter...and I do this generously, but at some point you have to pull your head out and get it...................


I've climbed 3/4ths down the moutain of intelligence for your benefit...can't you meet me 1/10th of the way up it? It's you that it benefits...

[ChumpDumper]

if the elected goverment asks us to leave I am for leavingBTW, that's not what the article was about. Why am I forced to type because you have a shitty memory?

[ChumpDumper]

#1 If the government we put in place turns hostile to us...then fuck em.

#2. The Lib concept is to totally GTF out...mine isn't. Mine is divide and conquer and still maintain a military presence...both for the purpose of stablizing(in a positive way) at least a portion of the fucked up areas of the middle east, and for putting military pressure on the fucked up regions that remain in power.

It's not the same thing...

Look, I realize that for us to communicate I have to make myself dumber since you obviously can't make yourself smarter...and I do this generously, but at some point you have to pull your head out and get it...................Thanks for admitting you're fine with turning over most of Iraq to the Islamists. That wasn't too difficult, was it?

[clambake]

If they turn hostile, then fuck them, and forget all that "winning at all cost" BS.

[George W Bush]

I'm for winning at all costs.....

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/bush_coffins.jpg

[whottt]

BTW, that's not what the article was about.

That's what the point I was making was about..


Why am I forced to type because you have a shitty memory?

Because you elect to take posts out of context and twist like the cunt you have always been.

[clambake]

Which part is out of context, "I'm for winning at all costs" or "If they turn hostile, then fuck them"?

[ChumpDumper]

Winning at all costs = losing 2/3 of Iraq to Islamists.

[whottt]

Thanks for admitting you're fine with turning over most of Iraq to the Islamists. That wasn't too difficult, was it?

Thanks for proving you have rocks in you skull...

[whottt]

Winning at all costs = losing 2/3 of Iraq to Islamists.

You automatically assume it will be the Islamacists that take power, you also assume that we won't be able to influence the outcome to our benefit if we maintain a military presence. When in fact, that's only assured if we do the pull out the libs advocate. It isn't the same thing I advocate if certain events occur, and it won't have the same outcome, and it's your inability to discern the difference that makes you a dumbass. I mean I've only pointed out the differences 50 billion times. You continue to proudly show how you can't discern the difference as if it is a virtue, when in fact the only one it impresses, is other dumbasses...

[ChumpDumper]

You automatically assume it will be the Islamacists that take powerWhy not? You did in this very thread when arguing against withdrawl.
you also assume that we won't be able to influence the outcome to our benefit if we maintain a military presenceBy holing up in Kurdistan? Tell me, are we influencing the outcome in Waziristan to our benefit because we're next door in Afghanistan?

[NASCARdad]

I'm for winning at all costs...

A true American!! :tu

[whottt]

Why not? You did in this very thread when arguing against withdrawl.

No I didn't...I didn't say the same thing at all. You just can't tell the difference. A recurring problem for you...



By holing up in Kurdistan? Tell me, are we influencing the outcome in Waziristan to our benefit because we're next door in Afghanistan?

Again...you can't tell the difference.



But if you think I am in anyway in favor of just cutting and running and letting the chips fall where they may...you're just being dump, and I can't fix that. That's not what I am saying....that's not what I have ever said.

[clambake]

Oh, I forgot, the kurds don't control the oil. Time to adopt plan..........?

[whottt]

Oh, I forgot, the kurds don't control the oil. Time to adopt plan..........?

Please keep helping Chump...I know he appreciates it.

[ChumpDumper]

I just want to make sure I have a finger on the Dem POV here before commenting...

Are you Dems saying that you agree with the stance of these quitt..er troops?

That we should just pull out and let the chips fall where they may?

Just let the suicide bombers, militant Islamacists etc. take over the country?Of course I see the difference. You'd just allow the suicide bombers, militant Islamists, etc., take over most of the country.

[clambake]

I'm not all over the place. Just make up your mind.

[whottt]

Of course I see the difference. You'd just allow the suicide bombers, militant Islamists, etc., take over most of the country.


Link to where I said that?

[clambake]

Look, you want to move in next door to them. Wouldn't have Afghanistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Jordan, Israel, Egypt, been close enough?

[ChumpDumper]

Link to where I said that?Why should I link to this thread? If we "withdraw to victory at all costs" in Kurdistan, why isn't an Islamist takeover of the rest of Iraq possbile when you say it is likely if we pull out of Iraq altogether?

[PixelPusher]

I'm for winning at all costs.....

Phyrrhic Victory (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Pyrrhic%20Victory)
a victory or goal achieved at too great a cost.

[Origin: 1880–85; < Gk Pyrrikós; after a remark attributed by Plutarch to Pyrrhus, who declared, after a costly victory over the Romans, that another similar victory would ruin him]

[whottt]

Why should I link to this thread? If we "withdraw to victory at all costs" in Kurdistan, why isn't an Islamist takeover of the rest of Iraq possbile when you say it is likely if we pull out of Iraq altogether?


For the 1,045,567,789,123,125,789 time...

A total pull out leaves us in no position to have any influence on anything and severely limits our military strike capability against Iran.


Leaving greater Iraq at the request of the elected government in the event of a civil war leaves us in position to gurantee ourselves a sane ally and influence the civil war in our favor.

And furthermore...a civil war leaves the Sunnis and Shias fighting against each other and further fragments Islamic unification against our country, and in fact will likely lead to one side courting our favor...either the Sunnis surrounded by enemies on all sides, or the Shias who are also surrounded by enemies on all sides, just on a bigger scale...

[ChumpDumper]

Leaving greater Iraq at the request of the elected government in the event of a civil war leaves us in position to gurantee ourselves a sane ally and influence the civil war in our favor.Influence how? By holding up signs they might be able to read across the border?
And furthermore...a civil war leaves the Sunnis and Shias fighting against each other and further fragments Islamic unification against our countryUntil someone wins. Then there could be near-complete unification against us.
and in fact will likely lead to one side courting our favor...either the Sunnis surrounded by enemies on all sides, or the Shias who are also surrounded by enemies on all sides, just on a bigger scale...So what is our stated goal in Iraq again? Civil war? Is taking sides in a civil war after working so long for a unified Iraq a good idea?

[whottt]

Influence how? By holding up signs they might be able to read across the border?

By providing one side with superior weaponry and support.


Until someone wins. Then there could be near-complete unification against us.

Another Shia country will further fragment them.


So what is our stated goal in Iraq again?

To remove Saddam from power, install a popularly elected Democrat govt, and nurse it until it's capable of staying in power, done and done, the last segment requires an act of will on the Iraqis themselves, and if they order us to leave it's safe to assume they feel that has been accomplished...it won't be of course, but it becomes much easier to suppoer the Democratic autonomous region of the Kurds and still accomplish our primary aim...of course a Democratic country in the Middle East is a good thing, large or small.


Civil war? Is taking sides in a civil war after working so long for a unified Iraq a good idea?

If it's not a unified Iraq it is...

[ChumpDumper]

By providing one side with superior weaponry and support.Which side?
Another Shia country will further fragment them.Having a Shia Iraq next to a Shia iran fragments them?
If it's not a unified Iraq it is...Yeah, maybe you can end up with a Sunni strongman in power who is diametrically opposed to Iran. Oops.

[whottt]

Which side?

Depends...


Having a Shia Iraq next to a Shia iran fragments them?

Yeah..because that Shia Iraq will also be right next to Saudi Arabia.


Yeah, maybe you can end up with a Sunni strongman in power who is diametrically opposed to Iran. Oops.

Hey, as long as the Sunni strongman doesn't have designs on nukes or ruling the middle east...can't be any worse than Saddam.

Plus gain a Democratic Kurdistan...

[ChumpDumper]

Depends...Depends how? They asked us to leave, didn't they?
Yeah..because that Shia Iraq will also be right next to Saudi Arabia.And?
Hey, as long as the Sunni strongman doesn't have designs on nukes or ruling the middle east...can't be any worse than Saddam. How do you know he doesn't?
Plus gain a Democratic Kurdistan...And militant Kurdish nationalist movements in four other countries. Including Turkey. Nice.

[whottt]

Depends how? They asked us to leave, didn't they?

Depends on which one is less fucked up and more committed to Democracy...I'm leaning towards the Shias right now.


And?

The Saudis don't want that...



How do you know he doesn't?

Because our military will be right there on his ass to take him out if he puruses them.


And militant Kurdish nationalist movements in four other countries. Including Turkey. Nice.

Already exists...

[ChumpDumper]

Depends on which one is less fucked up and more committed to Democracy...I'm leaning towards the Shias right now.Thery certainly seem more committed to using democracy to facilitate ethnic cleansing. Whoever kills the most people is who you are for, admit it.
The Saudis don't want that...And, what are they going to do about it?
Because our military will be right there on his ass to take him out if he puruses them. So we'll just go back in whenever we feel like it?
Already exists...Exactly.

[whottt]

Thery certainly seem more committed to using democracy to facilitate ethnic cleansing. Whoever kills the most people is who you are for, admit it.

Oh bullshit...they didn't start the ethnic cleansing, they learned it. Sorry but to me the Sunnis are the ones fucking everything up. That could change though...



And, what are they going to do about it?

Support us if the Shias should be the ones we need to take out.


So we'll just go back in whenever we feel like it?

If need be...if it's a Sunni dictator pursuing nuclear weapons I imagine we'll have support from Iran...and whoever. Ditto Shias and Saudis...

Divide and conquer split them...



Exactly.


Exactly is right...what, are you in a brief moment of enlightenment to where you suddenly realize the causes of all the problems in the Middle East and what it will take to fix them?

I wish that were true...alas if it were you wouldn't be arguing with me and I wouldn't be suffering because you are dense bitch.

[ChumpDumper]

Oh bullshit.It's happenning and the PM isnt doing shit about it.
they didn't start the ethnic cleansing, they learned it.Sudan's example has taught them quite well.
Sorry but to me the Sunnis are the ones fucking everything up. That could change though...It has changed once the Sunni population started getting rounded up and killed.
If need beSo why ever leave? We'll be there forever anyway.
Exactly is right.Right, will independent Kurditan make those movements more or less militant?
I wouldn't be sufferingWhat, is your air conditioning out? I have trouble accepting you couldn't find any way to go out to the mideast and kill a few people even with your alleged medical condition.

[clambake]

Holy shit, all over the place.

YOu already stated your dream. (We need to be there so we have first strike capability to hit Iran).

What the "F"? Afghanistan is not close enough.

It will never work. They will fight democracy forever. It will never be able to stand. They know why Bush is there, so they will never stop.

Bush already said it out loud. It's the oil!

[whottt]

It's happenning and the PM isnt doing shit about it.

Payback is a bitch...it's also why he won't ask us to leave.


Sudan's example has taught them quite well.

The mountain is getting tired of coming to stupid...eventually stupid is going to have to come to the mountain.


It has changed once the Sunni population started getting rounded up and killed.

Sunnis started it...


So why ever leave?

Um because their elected leader asks us too?

And so we can sit back while they weaken each other and shut all the stupid libs over here up who thinks wars shouldn't involve death.



We'll be there forever anyway.

Ok then STFU...


Right, will independent Kurditan make those movements more or less militant?

How do you get more militant then attempting to establish your own country?


What, is your air conditioning out? I have trouble accepting you couldn't find any way to go out to the mideast and kill a few people even with your alleged medical condition.


And I have trouble accepting that you can't get your head stuck even further up your ass then it already is...keep trying, you can do it.


By the way, exactly what is your position on this?

Oh that's right...be for staying, but bitch about it...I hope you and clambake don't reproduce.

[clambake]

Now your the mountain?

I guess I missed that Twilight Zone episode.

Go over there and show us how it's done. Your chance to be a man.

[whottt]

Why do you keep telling me to go over there? You belong over there with your fellow Islamofascists more than I do.....

Leave.


Get over there and fight and die for a cause you believe in and a way of life you embrace. Shut up and go.

[clambake]

If you believe in what amounts to a criminal invasion, then grow some balls.

You'll put everybodys ass on the line but your own. Empty gas bag.

[whottt]

If you believe in what amounts to a criminal invasion, then grow some balls.

You'll put everybodys ass on the line but your own. Empty gas bag.


And you'll ally yourself with the enemies of this country all the while living in it, badmouthing it, and feeding on it. Get out. Hyprocrite. Then stfu and go kneel to allah or die...pissbag. At least then you can stop living the lie.

Rascist..who makes fun of disabilities...worthless piece of shit.

Just get over there and kneel the kneel...

[PixelPusher]

Just to further highlight the institutional disadvantages for active duty military who oppose this war:


Army Blocking Soldiers In Iraq From Reading “Left Leaning” Websites, Conservative Website Allowed… (http://www.wonkette.com/politics/iraq/stop-abusing-our-marines-210428.php)

We realize that when it comes to freedom of the press, the USA has fallen to Number 53 in the world — tied with our fascist homies in Croatia and the islanders of the Kingdom of Tonga! — but do we have to make is so damned obvious?
Another Marine stationed in Iraq has sent us a screenshot of what happens when you need some hot news on Macaca and Foley:

forbidden, this page (http://www.wonkette.com) is categorized as (Personal Pages) ALL SITES YOU VISIT ARE LOGGED AND FILED.

Link to screenshot (hey, they use Firefox too!) (http://img124.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blockedaa3.jpg)

Nice little threat at the end, too. Asswipes.

Notice the other browser tabs. Two actual “personal pages” that rah-rah for Bush (What’s her name, the wannabe Coulter, and Hugh Hewitt) show up just fine, as our Marine Operative confirms. But “Talking Points Memo,” which is apparently one of the “left leaning” sites one hears so much about these days, is prohibited.

Writes the Corporal: “I think that this kind of censoring is a big deal. I can understand blocking porn, music and movies, and blatantly illegal sites, but blocking sites that some higher up just doesn’t agree with is disgusting. They are blocking a huge portion of voters from information that will help them determine which side to vote for. Because of this, the only news we get is from the big corporations or conservative based sites.”

[johnsmith]

Just to further highlight the institutional disadvantages for active duty military who oppose this war:


Yeah, well, if it's on the internet, it must be true.

[clambake]

Hey whottttt. What disability? The one where you sink to the level of manure? Having reached your zenith and finding you are left with nothing makes you throw out the "your a racist" card? Look up the word degenerate for self examination. When your rants are exposed as nonsense, you resort to rancid insults. Adolescent.

I suspect your true disability is that your a tiny, bitter man that suffers from Neopoleon Syndrom, which must be quite the conundrum considering how much you hate the French.

[ChumpDumper]

Sunnis started it...So you aupport ethnic cleansing and genocide when it meets your childhood "he started it" logic. No surprise.
Um because their elected leader asks us too?But what if the Islamists take over then? Oh that's right, we'll be in a better position to fight them once we're not there anymore.
And so we can sit back while they weaken each other and shut all the stupid libs over here up who thinks wars shouldn't involve death. Yeah, you say divide and conquer. It's good to know conquest and permanent military presence in Iraq is your goal.
Ok then STFU...Fascist.
How do you get more militant then attempting to establish your own country?You start blowing more shit up and killing more people, that's how, idiot.
And I have trouble accepting that you can't get your head stuck even further up your ass then it already is...keep trying, you can do it. Aw, hit a nerve did I? There are hundreds of ways to serve over there. You just wanted the one that gave you a gun and the opportunity to kill.
By the way, exactly what is your position on this?

Oh that's right...be for staying, but bitch about it...I hope you and clambake don't reproduce.Nope it's always been to find a face saving way out so they can get on with the business of genocide that will undoubtedly happen. You've just been to stupid to understand it. We fucked up in Iraq big time, and I will never stop bitching about that, nor should I, since I was right and idiots like you were wrong. Our mission was NOT accomplished in Afghanistan and Pakistan and now likely never will because idiots like you got tricked into supporting this stupid war that only made things worse in both theaters while at the same time making the worldwide support we enjoyed after 9/11 evaporate.

Congratulations.

[whottt]

So you aupport ethnic cleansing and genocide when it meets your childhood "he started it" logic.

So you're a pedophile?


It's good to know conquest and permanent military presence in Iraq is your goal.

It's good to know you're a sex offender.



Fascist.

Hallucinatist.



You start blowing more shit up and killing more people, that's how, idiot.


Is this before or after you molest children?



Aw, hit a nerve did I? There are hundreds of ways to serve over there. You just wanted the one that gave you a gun and the opportunity to kill.

And you just want to cornhole small children and animials.


Nope it's always been to find a face saving way out so they can get on with the business of genocide that will undoubtedly happen.




We fucked up in Iraq big time, and I will never stop bitching about that, nor should I, since I was right and idiots like you were wrong.

Yeah because bitching fixes it...



Our mission was NOT accomplished in Afghanistan and Pakistan and now likely never will because idiots like you got tricked into supporting this stupid war that only made things worse in both theaters while at the same time making the worldwide support we enjoyed after 9/11 evaporate.

And it's idiots like you that cause child crime.




Congratulations.

Back at ya...

Come back when you get done with the kids...

Wow arguing on your level is hard.

[xrayzebra]

So you aupport ethnic cleansing and genocide when it meets your childhood "he started it" logic. No surprise.But what if the Islamists take over then? Oh that's right, we'll be in a better position to fight them once we're not there anymore.Yeah, you say divide and conquer. It's good to know conquest and permanent military presence in Iraq is your goal.Fascist.You start blowing more shit up and killing more people, that's how, idiot.Aw, hit a nerve did I? There are hundreds of ways to serve over there. You just wanted the one that gave you a gun and the opportunity to kill.Nope it's always been to find a face saving way out so they can get on with the business of genocide that will undoubtedly happen. You've just been to stupid to understand it. We fucked up in Iraq big time, and I will never stop bitching about that, nor should I, since I was right and idiots like you were wrong. Our mission was NOT accomplished in Afghanistan and Pakistan and now likely never will because idiots like you got tricked into supporting this stupid war that only made things worse in both theaters while at the same time making the worldwide support we enjoyed after 9/11 evaporate.

Congratulations.

Gee Chump, I was tricked. Thanks for telling me. And
you were right, I am so happy to hear that. Did you make
your views known to the President?

The only problem with people like you is that you have no
"sticking" power. You want instant this or that. You never
listen to what was said by the President in the beginning
or by your idols, at the time. Of course now that there are
the vocal people like you, they come out of the woodwork
to proclaim their all knowing knowledge, just like you. We
were "tricked". Horse Hockey!

I wasn't then and I am not now. I know what the right thing
was then and know what the right thing is now. We
finish what we started, if it takes a hundred years, then
so be it.

[clambake]

Hey X!!! Your back to your old form. How'd you do it? Re-boot or step out for an afternoon of electroshock?

As you can see by some of the comments above, Whottttt has been out on the ledge by himself. He can use the company. And I would like for anyone to keep him under some close observation. Don't forget to take notes, its for posterity.

[SA210]

http://www.ifilms.tv/votevets2/VV_Doolittle.mov

[gtownspur]

http://www.ifilms.tv/votevets2/VV_Doolittle.mov


Is this your first Barely Legal Teen Whore audition? :hungry:

tell me before i click.

[SA210]

Is this your first Barely Legal Teen Whore audition? :hungry:

tell me before i click.
I'm sure you watched it, not that you'll admit it. It shows the hypocricy of your Republican party.

[gtownspur]

I'm sure you watched it, not that you'll admit it. It shows the hypocricy of your Republican party.


Ugh, so is it your barely legal teen porn whore audition or not. :hungry:

[xrayzebra]

I'm sure you watched it, not that you'll admit it. It shows the hypocricy of your Republican party.


Hey Sa210, maybe we have another wounded war veteran like John Kerry.
What you think?

Think he will make a good Senator, like Kerry. Or better yet, Presidente.

[boutons_]

The only choices are escalate (won't happen undery Rummy, can't happen without a draft) or disengage.

Most Americans now know Iraq was a huge Repug lie and mistake, and most Iraqis want the USA gone, and no bases, ASAP.

The Repugs had but lost the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqis, by not delivering water, electricity, sewage, reconstruction as promised, with the general incompetence of the CPA, and by allowing the insurgency to explode out of control, the biggest fatalities being with Iraqis.

There's no fucking way the Repugs can win back those hearts and minds now.

The military can win every battle, escalation or not, but will lose Iraq without the support of the hearts and minds of the Iraqis, EXACTLY what happened in VN.

AKA: Iraq is lost

But, we absolutely can't lose Iraq.

Like with the explosion of the national debt, the Repugs' phony Iraq war will cost the USA and world dearly for many, many years.

You're doing a heckuva job, dubya

[ChumpDumper]

Gee Chump, I was tricked. Thanks for telling me. And
you were right, I am so happy to hear that. Did you make
your views known to the President?

The only problem with people like you is that you have no
"sticking" power. You want instant this or that. You never
listen to what was said by the President in the beginning
or by your idols, at the time. Of course now that there are
the vocal people like you, they come out of the woodwork
to proclaim their all knowing knowledge, just like you. We
were "tricked". Horse Hockey!

I wasn't then and I am not now. I know what the right thing
was then and know what the right thing is now. We
finish what we started, if it takes a hundred years, then
so be it.Do you know who the Taliban are yet?

[gtownspur]

Why does it matter?

The Taliban had no connections to 911.

Afghanistan didn't attack america.

Afghanistan, Iraq, is all a quagmire. We should do nothing.

[MannyIsGod]

Why does it matter?

The Taliban had no connections to 911.

Afghanistan didn't attack america.

Afghanistan, Iraq, is all a quagmire. We should do nothing.Except the Taliban did have direct connections. No one debates that.

[turambar85]

Why does it matter?

The Taliban had no connections to 911.

Afghanistan didn't attack america.

Afghanistan, Iraq, is all a quagmire. We should do nothing.


Still responding with smartass, meaningless quips, eh GTown?

[gtownspur]

Except the Taliban did have direct connections. No one debates that.


So does Saudi Arabia.

[gtownspur]

Still responding with smartass, meaningless quips, eh GTown?


Still posing as a moderate.

[turambar85]

Still posing as a moderate.

'm a moderate, but not in todays society, not in this board. I am a strict libertatian, conservatives, at least now, are against most of my views at the moment.

[gtownspur]

'm a moderate, but not in todays society, not in this board. I am a strict libertatian, conservatives, at least now, are against most of my views at the moment.


So you are against welfare, environmental regulations, flat tax to no tax.
Abolition of the IRS?

[turambar85]

So you are against welfare, environmental regulations, flat tax to no tax.
Abolition of the IRS?

Welfare I am against, at least in regard to the healthy and sane, yes. Environmental regs, no because natural rights include public goods such as clean air and the ability to experience the Earth as created for us. I am against most liberal economic policies, and against most conservative social policies.

[xrayzebra]

No, he is against.....well what ever a it takes to make a good argument.....but
he's like that.....he means well. Just never answer's his PM's.

[PixelPusher]

So you are against welfare, environmental regulations, flat tax to no tax.
Abolition of the IRS?

against welfare = strict libertaran / run-of-the-mill Republican

against environmental regs = strict libertarian / corporate hack

for flat tax = strict libertarian / Steve Forbes

no tax/abolish IRS = whackjob anarchist with the mistaken impression that this make him/her a strict libertarian

[turambar85]

No, he is against.....well what ever a it takes to make a good argument.....but
he's like that.....he means well. Just never answer's his PM's.

Pray tell, what do you mean X-ray? I will debate anything with any-1 here, with money involved as well. I am not against good arguments.

And your p.m, well, it didn't seem to ask for much of a response.

[gtownspur]

against welfare = strict libertaran / run-of-the-mill Republican

against environmental regs = strict libertarian / corporate hack

for flat tax = strict libertarian / Steve Forbes

no tax/abolish IRS = whackjob anarchist with the mistaken impression that this make him/her a strict libertarian


a flat tax would abolish the irs.

[PixelPusher]

a flat tax would abolish the irs.
a flat tax would wipe out mountains of tax code, but someone still has to account for tax income.

[turambar85]

Let me change that to strict, but sane, libertarian.

[gtownspur]

a flat tax would wipe out mountains of tax code, but someone still has to account for tax income.

It wouldn't be the same.