Ludden : Spurs downsize their lineup to keep up in the fast-paced West [Archive]

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Bruno

10-29-2006, 06:15 AM

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA102906.04N.BKNspurs.small.954bfb.html

Web Posted: 10/28/2006 08:00 PM CDT
Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer

Rasho Nesterovic had been shipped to Toronto, Nazr Mohammed was packing his bags for Detroit and Gregg Popovich couldn't leave the safety of his gated community without being pelted with questions about both.

From July to October, it didn't matter whether the Spurs coach was standing in line at the grocery store, picking up his dry cleaning or sitting down to eat at his favorite restaurant, the queries were always the same.

"Who's going to start at center NOW?"

"I would say, 'How many minutes did you see those guys play?'" Popovich said. "Or, 'Aren't you the guy who ripped Nesterovic all year long? And now that we trade him, you want to know what we're going to do now that he's not here?'"

Popovich, unlike the local fan base, didn't see the hole in the middle of the Spurs' lineup as reason to fret. He already had one of the league's best centers; Tim Duncan had made a nice living masquerading as a power forward. The Spurs also had already joined the growing number of teams downsizing their lineup to play small and fast.

"The old-school way, you still played a (power forward) and (center), and a (point guard), (shooting guard) and a (small forward)," Boston coach Doc Rivers said. "Now I think coaches, and I follow in that category as well, are thinking, well, why? If I have two (small forwards), a (shooting guard) and a (point guard) and then a pretty good (center), why can't I play small?

"I think a lot of teams are starting to view it that way."

The Spurs are among them. Two seasons ago, they beat the Phoenix Suns at their own game by playing small in the Western Conference finals. In last season's playoffs, Popovich moved Robert Horry into the starting lineup, then dumped him for Michael Finley — Mohammed and Nesterovic were already strapped to the bench — shortly after Dallas went to a two-point guard lineup.

With Mohammed and Nesterovic having totaled only 27 minutes against the Mavericks in the conference semifinals, the Spurs were hesitant to invest in a long-term contract for a slow-footed center who couldn't keep pace in the fast lane of today's Western Conference. After flirting with Miami's Alonzo Mourning, they signed Francisco Elson, a lanky 7-footer from Denver whose greatest attribute was his ability to run the floor. They also added 21-year-old Jackie Butler, thinking if they could get him in shape he might be able to help by the second half of the season.

Fabricio Oberto, an undersized scrapper, returned with a better understanding of the team's system and his role. Duncan also will continue to share minutes at center. Since David Robinson retired in 2003, Duncan has typically played the position in the fourth quarter with Horry, Finley or Malik Rose usually lined up next to him.

But while Popovich considers Duncan a part-time center, he remains hesitant to call him such. He has long joked that he has a standing agreement with Duncan to refer to him only as a four, the basketball terminology for power forward.

"The one statement I made (to the team) at the beginning of the year, is no matter who is on the court, Timmy is always the power forward," Popovich said. "If I call Thumbs-This-Sideways-Lift-Floppy-What Four, it's for Duncan. If we're going small and Finley's on the floor, he's the (center) and Duncan is the four.

"I have absolutely no (guts) whatsoever. If he wants to be four, he's four."

In truth, today's up-tempo, let-it-fly game — popularized by the frenetic Suns — requires most players to play hybrid positions. Horry, a small-ball pioneer from his days in Houston, jokingly referred to himself as a "dinosaur" during last season's playoffs. Even the typically staid Jeff Van Gundy has Houston playing small: The Rockets could begin the season with 6-foot-8 Shane Battier as their starting power forward.

Some teams have taken the trend to an extreme. Denver's goal this season is to score within the first 10 seconds of the shot clock. When the league tweaked its defensive rules two seasons ago, a fast, attacking guard like Tony Parker quickly became one of the most prized weapons.

"You see little guys propel themselves into that lane and nine times out of 10, the foul goes against the defender," Popovich said. "I'm not saying that's wrong or right; that's just the way it is. But it hurts people like us who used two 7-footers in our (defensive) schemes all those years."

Popovich said he doesn't expect the Spurs to utilize their small lineup much more than in the past, if only because they had already begun to increasingly use it. But they have practiced with it more frequently in the preseason than in previous years.

"Last year, we didn't really emphasize the small lineup until playoff time," Finley said. "So now if that situation occurs, we'll be better prepared and hopefully we'll be a little better at it."

The Spurs also hope Elson's athleticism allows them to stay big more often. Though the team often still uses its same basic defensive scheme when playing small, it can require more double-teaming. Adding another big man with 3-point range in Matt Bonner also could further help space the floor for the Spurs' guards to attack.

Popovich refutes the suggestion the Spurs would have been better off staying big against Dallas. Regardless, team officials think they have assembled a more versatile roster to allow them to better adapt to their opponents.

Of course, there are those among the Spurs who think the team adapted just fine last season. When someone recently mentioned Mavericks coach Avery Johnson caused the Spurs' downfall with his decision to pair Devin Harris and Jason Terry in the backcourt, Duncan only laughed.

"That's the reason they won? Oh, really," Duncan said with just a touch of sarcasm. "Well, he's the Coach of the Year, so that's obviously the move that won the series.

"I thought it came down to Game 7 overtime, but that's just me."

YoMamaIsCallin

10-29-2006, 07:46 AM

If I call Thumbs-This-Sideways-Lift-Floppy-What Four, it's for Duncan. If we're going small and Finley's on the floor, he's the five and Duncan is the four. I have absolutely no balls whatsoever. If he wants to be four, he's four.

That's the reason they won? Oh, really. Well, he's the Coach of the Year, so that's obviously the move that won the series. I thought it came down to Game 7 overtime, but that's just me.

This is what I love about the Spurs. Sarcastic, dry, self-deprecating, reality-based, intelligent wit. I'm completely serious. What other team would ever produce quotes like this?

whottt

10-29-2006, 07:49 AM

I am never going to agree that Pop made the right decision to not let Rasho and Nazr and even Horry on the court in big moments of those games...

There was a couple of those games where one freaking rebound could have saved the game for us and we have Michael Finley playing C.

There was one game where we could not buy an offensive rebound and it screamed for Nazr...

Another one where the Mavs guards just destroyed us with penetration...

The telling fact is that we lost that series, not because we couldn't run. I think we outran the Mavs in that series and they were the ones wanting to play halfcourt...our problem was in the half court...on D, because we had a running line up out there.

Horry didn't get enough minutes to make an impact, but what minutes he did get, would probably have served us better going to Nazr, or even Rasho...

Horry flat out cannot run anymore..and I think Nazr and Rasho were both better running bigs than Horry. Nazr actually isn't that bad in the running game anyway IMO.

I agree with the rest of it and see what Pop is trying to do here...Duncan is our C and he's the best C in the NBA...

And our half court team, Robert Horry is the starting..or finishing as it were, PF...He can still defend any half court PF in the NBA...he just can't get up and down the floor like he used too...

But as for what Pop has done here...

This Spurs team can run with any team in the league, we could put 5 running guys out there and small ball with any team in the league, we can even do it with Duncan at C, making us the only running team that can stick a legit A list offensive and defensive C out there while we are doing it...

Whether or not Elson is what everyone thinks he can be....there's no doubt he can fit in against teams like Phoenix and matchup against a guy like Dirk.

I mean let's look at this team...

Manu - Manu's a transition guard.
Parker's a transition guard.
Barry's a transition guard.
Beno's a transition guard.
Finley spent virtually his entire career in a fast break offense.
Elson is a running man.
Duncan has always been able to run and I personally think he likes to play that style which is why he wanted Kidd.
Oberto - well I've only seen him play outside of the Spurs on Team Argentina and team Argentina could run.

Bruce isn't really what I would consider a transition player but his best attribute has always been his quick feet an he's actually a very good finisher IMO. I don't know if I want to see Bruce pulling up for any transition threes though...

The natural talents of the core of this team definitely lean towards being a running team moreso than a halfcourt team IMO...

The fact that we've won our last two titles being primarily a half court team with guys like Barry, Manu and Parker playing key roles is just gravy and testamment to Tim Duncan and their own professionalism and versatility...those guys are natural transition players.

I can see why the Spurs are looking at using Oberto since he's like the most versatile out of Horry, Elson and himself...with Horry being used as a half court specialist and a Elson being used more against running teams...all this with the hope that Bulter gets it fast enough to be the main guy(although Butler looks to be a very poor runner to me).

To me Pop's definitely got a plan and I actually like what he's doing...

I see it being a problem against Houston( we have no one to put on Yao that will do as good a job as Rasho IMO)...but not anyone else.

But he needs to stop making excuses, sac up and admit he screwed up against the Mavs...Riley exposed his mistakes for the entire world to see and Pop forgot the second of the universal rules(and his own formula) for winning championships...

#1. Defense wins championships.
#2. Halfcourt ball is the ultimate playoff basketball and when two equally talented teams meet the better halfcourt team will control the tempo and win a best of 7 series.

The Mavs out halfcourted us, with us being the better halfcourt team. Pop didn't even try the halfcourt against them. Miami stayed true to who they were, which just so happened to be a halfcourt team, and they took out a much more talented team. Pat Riley is the only coach in history to win an NBA championship with a running team...and even he knew it would be next to impossible trying to beat the Mavs that way. Time for Pop to own up on this...

SpursWillOwn

10-29-2006, 08:03 AM

whottt

10-29-2006, 08:03 AM

"That's the reason they won? Oh, really," Duncan said with just a touch of sarcasm. "Well, he's the Coach of the Year, so that's obviously the move that won the series.

"I thought it came down to Game 7 overtime, but that's just me."

The warmth of feelings Duncan has for AJ are so apparent...in his comments, as well as his play.

whottt

10-29-2006, 08:06 AM

whottt i didnt know bullshit could be heard.. which i just heard.. i whole lot of them.. from you.. "The Mavs out halfcourted us, with us being the better halfcourt team. Pop didn't even try the halfcourt against them. Miami stayed true to who they were, which just so happened to be a halfcourt team, and they took out a much more talented team. Pat Riley is the only coach in history to win an NBA championship with a running team...and even he knew you couldn't beat the Mavs that way. Time for Pop to own up on this." like wat TD said.. it did indeed go to Game 7 overtime

Yeah, because of Pop's decision we had a chance to lose a series in OT of game 7, that we should have won in 5...Mavs didn't win it...we lost it, because Pop made us play with one hand behind our back.

Do you think Miami had more talent than the Spurs? Do you think they would have beaten us? We'd have probably swept them. Were they a better half court team than the Spurs? Hell no. They were old and beat up and had one guy playing like a viable star...

How come it didn't come down to a game 7 for them? Did you see them fucking around trying to run? I didn't...and they had the only coach in NBA history who's ever won a championship by running.

They did one thing better than the Mavs...play halfcourt ball, and that allowed them to dictate the tempo and win an NBA championship....We could, and should, have done the same.

TDMVPDPOY

10-29-2006, 08:22 AM

SMall ball doesnt win championships

we fuckd up cose pop made the spurs adjust to the ponies, we shouldve stick the big lineup and force them to adjust to us.....

Samr

10-29-2006, 09:38 AM

And if a call had gone the other way in that series, we'd all be singing the praises of small ball and cursing any mention of "center." How dare the Spurs put one of those on the floor!

The Spurs, like many, many other teams, are versatile. Sometimes it is good to hold your ground, but sometimes, the smart armies know when to give it as well.

RC's Boss

10-29-2006, 10:22 AM

Yeah, because of Pop's decision we had a chance to lose a series in OT of game 7, that we should have won in 5...Mavs didn't win it...we lost it, because Pop made us play with one hand behind our back.

Do you think Miami had more talent than the Spurs? Do you think they would have beaten us? We'd have probably swept them. Were they a better half court team than the Spurs? Hell no. They were old and beat up and had one guy playing like a viable star...

How come it didn't come down to a game 7 for them? Did you see them fucking around trying to run? I didn't...and they had the only coach in NBA history who's ever won a championship by running.

They did one thing better than the Mavs...play halfcourt ball, and that allowed them to dictate the tempo and win an NBA championship....We could, and should, have done the same.
I totally agree. Did you see all the rebounds that could have been ours had we used our traditional lineup. And all those guards flying thru the lane w/ the greatest of ease was sickening! If Pop wanted to tinker w/ the roster, he should have done so in the offseason.

picnroll

10-29-2006, 10:31 AM

I am never going to agree that Pop made the right decision to not let Rasho and Nazr and even Horry on the court in big moments of those games...

Truer words were never written.

Miami had Haslem and Posey both of whom could hang with Dirk better than any of the Spurs' bigs/long threes including Horry who was constantly let Dirk put the ball on the floor and get past him in the limited minutes Horry saw. That's why Dirk was far less effective against Miami. Spurs were short a long three, more moblile big that Miami had. Rasho and Nazr were NO answer.

RC's Boss

10-29-2006, 10:39 AM

They weren't the answer, but you can't play small ball if you don't have the personnel to do so. Miami had Haslem to stick w/ Dirk and Mourning punked him into taking jumpers. If we don't have "small ball players", don't try it and wait until the offseason to aquire it if it's needed. I still must quote a poster previously that said if you don't dance w/ the lady that brought you to the dance, she will leave w/ someone else..... And the Larry O'Brien trophy left w/ someone else :depressed

picnroll

10-29-2006, 10:44 AM

If we don't have "small ball players", don't try it and wait until the offseason to aquire it if it's needed. I still must quote a poster previously that said if you don't dance w/ the lady that brought you to the dance, she will leave w/ someone else..... And the Larry O'Brien trophy left w/ someone else :depressed

Does that refer to the Spurs approach to beating the Suns in '05 too?

Spurs came within a last second brainfart by Manu of quite possibly/likely a 4th title with small ball. Some can say without samll ball the Spurs would have blown out the Mavs in 4 - 5 games. That wasn't the history of a closely contested Mavs - Spurs season and that flies in the face of a series where Parker and Ginobili were beat up and worn out.

RC's Boss

10-29-2006, 10:49 AM

That's true, but The Suns are not small ball... They are pee-wee ball. They had no post defenders in their rotation which meant they had no defense. It's a big difference between a last second brainfart and beating a team in 5 games. And if I recall both Nazr and Tim were on the floor quite a bit against the Suns. You don't remeber when Nazr was looking like his name was "Barkley Rodman Malone" out there?

Aggie Hoopsfan

10-29-2006, 11:19 AM

If I have two (small forwards), a (shooting guard) and a (point guard) and then a pretty good (center), why can't I play small?

"I think a lot of teams are starting to view it that way."

The Spurs are among them.

Too bad we only have one real SF on the team - Bowen.

This is typical for the Spurs under Pop. Someone makes an adjustment in a playoff series, and he is unable to adjust via x's and o's, he just tries to throw different personnel at the problem and hope their talent overcomes the matchup problems presented by the other squad.

It doesn't work out, the Spurs limp into the off-season with their tail between their legs, and then Pop retools his roster to deal with the problem. Happened several times against the Fakers, and this business over the Mavs and AJ's moves is just the latest reincarnation.

Spurs came within a last second brainfart by Manu of quite possibly/likely a 4th title with small ball.

You could also argue if we had a big in there to protect the paint Manu wouldn't have had to come in from the wing to try and block Dirk because Dallas had gotten to the rim for the 384,293rd time in that series with no big man there thanks to *small ball*.

ShoogarBear

10-29-2006, 11:30 AM

Pat Riley is the only coach in history to win an NBA championship with a running team.WTF?

http://www.turtletrader.com/images/auerbach_red.jpghttp://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/img/jackramsay1.JPG

picnroll

10-29-2006, 11:31 AM

You could also argue if we had a big in there to protect the paint Manu wouldn't have had to come in from the wing to try and block Dirk because Dallas had gotten to the rim for the 384,293rd time in that series with no big man there thanks to *small ball*.
Mavs down three at the time I'm pretty sure you'd want to guard against an open three look. Right personell were on the floor at the time. Once Dirk hooked Bruce with no whistle to quickly get baseline penetration for the two obviously the shot should not have been contested. The Mavs would have been forced to foul on the inbound with little time left.

my2sons

10-29-2006, 11:32 AM

wow, with all the pop bashing in this thread, i wonder if bob hill would have made a difference....insert extreme sarcasm....I'm as disspointed as the next person we did not win game 7. a small guy fouled dirk so that became pops fault. it went down to ot of game 7 and it should not have reached that point. spurs win small ball genius like against the suns, but we lose a frickin' 7 game series to the eventual runner up who stopped receiving the benefit of nba official blowing hot air up their butts and blew a series lead, suddenly pop sucks as a coach again and its all his fault. incredible

MannyIsGod

10-29-2006, 11:38 AM

Small ball may have brought us to within one Manu foul of a title, but a gameplan with more center play would have put us in a position where that foul by Manu wouldn't have been an issue. Small ball didn't bring us to within a foul of a title, Small ball is the reason a foul cost us another title.

That being said, maybe it can work this year with more preperation and with a better cast. I don't know, but we'll see.

ShoogarBear

10-29-2006, 11:42 AM

Did anyone else think that Pop's answers sounded almost as if he was replying to this board? :lol

Aggie Hoopsfan

10-29-2006, 11:51 AM

Great post Manny!

my2sons -

spurs win small ball genius like against the suns, but we lose a frickin' 7 game series to the eventual runner up who stopped receiving the benefit of nba official blowing hot air up their butts and blew a series lead, suddenly pop sucks as a coach again and its all his fault. incredible

The Spurs using small ball against Phoenix the year before is a myth. Our starting center for that series was Nazr Mohammed.

Mohammed holds down the fort at center against the Suns two years ago, suddenly Pop was a genius playing small ball to match up. Incredible.

MannyIsGod

10-29-2006, 11:52 AM

Did anyone else think that Pop's answers sounded almost as if he was replying to this board? :lol:lol Yeah, it was kinda funny. I wonder how much the Spurs staff reads the board?

ShoogarBear

10-29-2006, 12:00 PM

If Pop should have taken anything from the Phoenix series, it should have been the "let Amare get his points" philosophy.

ShoogarBear

10-29-2006, 12:02 PM

When Pop is quoted as saying, "and tell AHF to go fuck himself!", we'll have our answer.

Aggie Hoopsfan

10-29-2006, 12:12 PM

When Pop is quoted as saying, "and tell AHF to go fuck himself!", we'll have our answer.

:lol

picnroll

10-29-2006, 12:12 PM

1. Neither Nazr or Rasho could stay with Dirk defensively.
2. Duncan was getting in foul trouble guarding Dirk
3. Horry proved ineffective guarding Dirk
4. Neither Nazr nor Rasho has a low post game that precluded Dirk from guarding them and forcing him to guard Duncan by putting Diop or Dampier on Nazr or Rasho. Likewise Horry.

Therefore any bigman lineup the Spurs put on the floor favored the Mavs.

This year with Elson and hopefully Butler the story may be different. Elson may guard Dirk better than Nazr, Rasho or Horry, certainly he has quicker feet and more lateral movement. Butler will be a defensively liability and force Duncan to play Dirk but he would likely put a major hurt on Dirk on offense in the post. Maybe Williams, if he ever gets in shape, can play Dirk a little as well.

Certainly having backup PG play better than the major suckage Van Exel can't hurt.

Fact is in the West there is only one slow down, half court team of consequence, the Rockets. And staying healthy for them is a major accomplishment.

Bruno

10-29-2006, 12:23 PM

I guess that in 10 years, there will still have a topic on "Was Pop right when he used Finley at PF against Dallas ?"
Last year is the past and people will never agree on that point.

This year is a new year and we will see what will happen but I'm quite confident because Elson and Oberto are better fits against Dallas than Nazr and Rasho.

ShoogarBear

10-29-2006, 12:30 PM

There are still a lot of teams to beat besides Dallas. This isn't like six years ago, when beating the Lakers meant winning it all.

The Truth #6

10-29-2006, 12:50 PM

People crying about small ball is getting out of hand. The Spurs played small ball throughout all of last year. It wasn't a new thing just for Dallas.

Nazr hardly played all year. Rasho played some but was a dud and showed less emotion than Borat. Our centers haven't done shit since 50 retired. Our defense hasn't been the same since 50 retired.

The rules have changed. Our personnel has changed. Pop is working with what is there. A lot of retards here have their head stuck in the sand. Pop played big ball in game 2 and got crushed.

It hopefully doesn't matter now because Elson can (hopefully) stay out there and play with the quick lineups.

The Spurs are going to be even better this year.

Aggie Hoopsfan

10-29-2006, 01:04 PM

Nazr hardly played all year.

Actually from the time they inserted Nazr in the starting lineup in February, the team had the league's best record from there until the end of the season. Try again.

The rules have changed. Our personnel has changed. Pop is working with what is there. A lot of retards here have their head stuck in the sand. Pop played big ball in game 2 and got crushed.

Retards hold up game 2 as a proof 'big ball' wasn't going to work. What they fail to overlook is that we started Horry at PF that game and were down by 15 before Nazr even walked on the floor. We just flat out got whipped that night, and no amount of big ball or small ball would have changed that.

The simple fact of the matter is that Pop had built his team around the two posts/funnel everything to the baseline concept for the last 6 years running. Every player he brought in was brought in to fit that paradigm. Then he got to the playoffs and flinched. You can't build a system for six years and 82 games and then just ditch it because Avery puts your panties in a bunch by starting Terry and Harris at the guard spots.

Pop got so uptight about Dirk and shutting him down, that he forgot what worked for him the previous year against Amare. The Spurs let Amare get his (he averaged 40 a game for crying out loud!) but the Spurs won that series going away.

Last year instead of employing that same strategy, Pop tried to play Avery's game and got burned. He could have kept the two bigs in to protect the lane from the layup fest it became for Harris, Terry, and Howard, but instead he got stuck on stupid and shutting down Dirk.

We didn't get beat by Dirk. We got beat by the fact that Pop was so focused on stopping Nowitzki that the rest of the Mavs were able to get into the lane and do their damage there.

picnroll

10-29-2006, 01:10 PM

The simple fact of the matter is that Pop had built his team around the two posts/funnel everything to the baseline concept for the last 6 years running. Every player he brought in was brought in to fit that paradigm. Then he got to the playoffs and flinched. You can't build a system for six years and 82 games and then just ditch it because Avery puts your panties in a bunch by starting Terry and Harris at the guard spots.

I think what Pop realized is that with the rules changes on perimeter defense made and enacted last season that funneling pentrating players to the baseline has gotten a whole lot harder. Some haven't picked up on that yet.

Winnipeg_Spur

10-29-2006, 01:30 PM

So, in conclusion, when Miami played Posey at PF that wasn't small ball?

ploto

10-29-2006, 01:37 PM

Nazr hardly played all year. Rasho played some.

Rasho and Nazr played a combined 37 minutes per game last season. And considering they each only had 2 DNP's- both of Rasho's against Phoenix, that is just about every game.

Throw in Horry and you get to 55 minutes per game.

ploto

10-29-2006, 01:40 PM

There are still a lot of teams to beat besides Dallas. This isn't like six years ago, when beating the Lakers meant winning it all.
I could not agree more. Last season everyone focused on what the Spurs had to do to beat Detroit and then neither of them got to the Finals. :lol

picnroll

10-29-2006, 01:44 PM

So, in conclusion, when Miami played Posey at PF that wasn't small ball?
Nor was playing 6'8" (at best) Udonis Haslem at PF.

whottt

10-29-2006, 02:19 PM

WTF?

http://www.turtletrader.com/images/auerbach_red.jpghttp://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/img/jackramsay1.JPG

My bad...I should have said, in the post hunter gatherer age, of indoor plumbing and flooring, Riley is the only coach.

Seriously though...I never knew, that was all before my time, but I guess it does make sense from the footage I have seen of Cousy. Still doesn't change the ultimate point though, and if anything it drives the point home. Running is great when you have more talent, which the Celtics did, like say 3,4,5 HOF'ers on your team...but if the teams are closely matched and all one of the teams does is run....that running team is going to lose. History bears this out...as does the style Riley elected to play last season in the finals...if running like that was so great, Riley woulda done it.

my2sons

10-29-2006, 02:22 PM

i would be curious to see the center stat line in that phoenix contest. i bet their minutes were down and played bigger roles in other matchups, plus you could still count on amare's prone to make mistakes to assist you in that series due to his inexperience.

maybe your are right, but had we played the bigs against dallas i wonder what kind of calls dirk would have gotten in a series already being dictated by poor officiating. the finals tend to let the players win. dirk no longer had an officials whistle and lips firmly entrenched on his ass so dallas lost. plus we did not have shack and mourning to stay big, we had rasho and nazr. again it may have worked but pop still almost won on his terms and i do not believe it warrents as much critique as it is getting...had he lost by 30 and swept then maybe, hell that may have happened if he went big who knows.

picnroll

10-29-2006, 02:28 PM

Mourning and Shaq were essentially never on the floor together. That would have benn more akin to Duncan playing with Nazr or Rasho which Riley was smart enough to stay away from.

The myth is that the Heat didn't play small ball.

whottt

10-29-2006, 03:02 PM

What everybody else calls small ball I call running...

The only reason people are calling it smallball is because in our case, and the case of the Suns, we were using a small lineup to do it...

What we did, that he Heat didn't...was try and out run the Mavs in an uptempo game using smaller players and forgoing completely our traditional halfcourt philosophy on D...

Smallball in the case of the Spurs, means using smaller and quicker players in an attempt to out run the Mavs and get easy baskets, small because we lacked the personnel to do it with our big guys, and giving up our defensive presence in the process...

It's not the size if the players that dictates whether or not it was smallball in this case, tempting as that may be, it was the style of play...

Spurs wanted to run and get up and down the court, the Heat didn't...and if you don't see this, I suggest taking a look at the average scores of the games involving us and the Mavs, VS the Heat and the Mavs...then go look at the scores of our 3 previous finals team...

And if all that still doesn't work, go find where Miami was starting a fucking 2 guard at Center...

Spurs tried to run and because we couldn't do it with a big line up we had to do it with a small lineup...hence Smallball...and giving up our ability to defend in the halfcourt.

Shit...I'd have been down with it if we could have rolled Drob out there...that'd have been fun...I just didn't like the concept of Michael Finley as our starting C. I think it was a bad one...we got plenty of points, and we played absolutely no d..and the Mavs were allowed to dictate the game, and take us out of our D..Two things we had the talent to do to them, better than they did it to us..

The Heat didn't do that...the Heat stayed a half court team...the size io the players doesn't matter so much, because they weren't taken out of their traditional roles or their ability to play D...

The Pistons were a halfcourt team with a 6'9 C...no one was calling it small ball...

beirmeistr

10-29-2006, 03:37 PM

picnroll

10-29-2006, 03:57 PM

I guess then if small is defined as running and big ball as half court then the Spurs can attribute their 2005 victory over the Suns as a testament to small ball.

Simple fact is that with Rasho, Nazr and Horry the Spurs didn't have a second big to pair with Duncan to give them an advantage over the Mavs when playing a big lineup. Not like the Heat with agile enough "bigs" in Haslem and Posey. Too bad they didn't get Tim Thomas who they had a good shot at until Kurt Thomas got hurt and the Suns went after him. That would have been a big difference maker.

whottt

10-29-2006, 04:05 PM

Some rebounding and not allowing Howard, Harris and Terry to slice through our D at will would have been a big difference maker...

How does anyone know it wouldn't have worked? We didn't even try.

You look back at Rasho's pre Spur history and some of his most dominant performances came against the Mavs at the height of their running days...in fact I'd say it was Rasho's games against the Kings and Mavs in 01-02 that made the Spurs go after him.

And Nazr destroyed the Suns in the regular season one game last year...in fact I'd call it his best performance as a Spur.

Pop didn't even try it.

IT's good to see you're bringing your F game this year pic...last time you did that we won a title :tu

picnroll

10-29-2006, 04:56 PM

Based on regular season stats of the Spurs vs the Mavs for Naz and Rasho and the playoffs for Finley and given 40 minutes per for Rasho and Nazr vs 40 minutes for Finley, Nazr and Rasho could garner 2.8 more rebounds per game.

Pop didn't show a whole lot of faith in Nazr/Rasho during the regular sesaon either, combined their avaraging 20 minutes per. Particularly Nazr Pop had no confidence in only playing him 12 minutes against the Mavs in regular season. Horry averaged 15.7 per in the playoffs vs. 18 in regular season.

IT's good to see you're bringing your F game this year pic...last time you did that we won a title :tu.

I do what I can :lol

I feel better about this years team than last. Like Pop I lost all faith in Nazr and Rasho. Unlike Pop I had zero faith in Van Exel from January on.

diego

10-29-2006, 05:50 PM

I tend to agree with Whott.

However, the fact is the rules were different in 05, and when we ran against the suns, we didnt do much about amare, or nash for that matter, but we shut down marion, Q, joe johnson, etc.

The mavs are also different in that they still play a seven footer with dirk most of the time.

I think there is a time to adapt, and a time to impose. Last year, pop chose a bad time to adapt.

Hopefully with the personnel changes we will be in a better position to impose. As far as the mavs are concerned, it most definitely is more important to control the boards than it is to contain dirk.

JGrice02

10-29-2006, 06:36 PM

There sure are a lot of NBA-caliber coaches on this thread. I thought Pop was the coach who led the Spurs to three titles but apparently his opinion is uneducated, nay ignorant in the eyes of many in this forum. That begs the question: why aren't any of you NBA coaches? Hmmmm...

My guess is that most of you are not lawyers either. And if you are, shame on your for piecing together such sloppy arguments.

Aggie Hoopsfan

10-29-2006, 07:37 PM

Is that you Tpark?

If Pop is above criticism, I think we should shut down the site, no need to have a discussion board if you cannot have discussion.

ShoogarBear

10-29-2006, 07:41 PM

ploto

10-29-2006, 10:35 PM

Pop didn't show a whole lot of faith in Nazr/Rasho during the regular season either, combined their avaraging 20 minutes per.
Where are you getting this stat from- it isn't even close. Combined they averaged 37 or 38 minutes per game.

ploto

10-29-2006, 10:43 PM

I agree very much with you- Whott. I watched Rasho play very well against Dallas- even after he joined the Spurs he had a 7 block, 15 rebound against them- when they still had Nash and Finley. I never understood why Pop decided this year that Rasho would not even get the chance to play against them, especially when his own coaching staff had said that Rasho was running the floor the best he had as a Spur.

I also agree that a running style was not one the Spurs were ready to play. They were not used to that kind of pace- plus, many of the guys they want to do it with are a little bit old and unathletic compared to the guys that are doing it on other teams.

As for Dallas and Dirk- a huge part of the difference with Miami than San Antonio was that they had guys who could both cover Dirk AND rebound. The Spurs went with the guys they thought could cover Dirk best, but unfortunately they are not strong rebounders.

ChumpDumper

10-30-2006, 04:08 AM

If we had Shaq, Mourning, Haslem and Posey we would have played them. I don't know how that makes anyone feel we should have swept the Mavs.