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RuffnReadyOzStyle
10-29-2006, 07:03 PM
So, now even Bjorn Lomborg ("The Skeptical Environmentalist") and the ex-cheif economist of the World Bank, Sir Nicholas Stern, believe in anthropocentric climate change. Oh, and then of course there's that study of 928 peer-reviewed scientific papers, not one of which questions the concensus, that I posted last week.

So when are Yoni and the other head-in-the-sand crowd around here going to admit that this is a real problem, that the scientific, business and political leaders of the world already acknowledge the same, and that we must start to act on this now? We are facing the greatest crisis in humanity's history, and it's time we all woke up and started to do something about it.

For those who would like to read a beautifully written account of the evidence for anthro climate change, and what we might do about it, Australian scientist Tim Flannery's book "The Weathermakers" is well worthwhile:

http://www.amazon.com/Weather-Makers-Changing-Climate-Earth/dp/0871139359


The free market got us into this mess, but is it equipped to get us out?Iain Macwhirter on capitalism’s response to climate change

‘WE are sleepwalking to catastrophe” said environment secretary David Mili band last week in the latest dire warning about climate change. He is wrong. We aren’t sleepwalking; we are walking towards catastrophe fully awake, with our eyes wide open.

There is no longer any significant dispute about the scientific evidence for global warming. Even the last of the climate-change sceptics, the Danish statistician Bjorn Lomborg, now accepts that climate change is happening, that we are responsible for it and that the worst impact will be felt in the developing countries.

The only remaining argument is whether it is worth doing anything about it right now. Many economists have argued that it makes little sense to destroy the world economy to combat a problem that may take decades to develop. This has been the standard response of the American right.

Until now. For even the market case for doing nothing will be destroyed tomorrow by a report prepared by the former chief economist of the World Bank, Sir Nicholas Stern. He will say that the world is in imminent danger of the most profound economic dislocation in history – a recession more serious than the great depression, a disruption more devastating than the second world war. And the cause will be global warming.

This is no woolly-minded tree hugger, but a hard-headed conservative econo mist. The World Bank, of which Stern was senior vice-president, has been widely criticised for its neo-liberal policies and its promotion of free-market globalisation. For someone with his background to say we are heading for an economic black hole is like George W Bush apologising for Iraq.

Why should there be a recession? Well, the capitalist economy is composed of markets, which are made by humans guessing about the future. This is what the FTSE or any hedge fund is: a group of investors speculating about the future worth of a company .

Investment is all about risk. So far the markets have not started to factor the risk of global warming into their speculations. But pretty soon they will have to. Insurance companies such as Swiss Re are already agonising about how to set realistic premiums when nobody knows the future risk any more .

We know that the seas are going to rise. At present melting rates, summer ice in the Arctic will be gone in 60 years, and all that frozen water will go into the oceans. So where does that leave house prices in flood plains and low-lying areas like central London? Where does it leave low-lying nuclear power stations?

What happens when investors realise that air travel, motor transport, power generation and all the other carbon-based economic activities no longer have a future? We know that this is the case right now. The government’s chief scientist, Sir David King, says carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere will reach catastrophic levels within 30 years. The horizons are getting very short.

Mass air travel can have only a decade or so left. Cars as we understand them have maybe 15 years before we start riding around on electric trikes (bring back the Sinclair C5). When cracks were discovered in the pipes at Hunterston B power station on October 16, the share price of British Energy collapsed by 24%. Imagine what will happen when the government says Hunterston will have to be moved to higher ground to avoid inundation.

Then there is mass migration, des ertification, disappearing lands. At pre sent the world economy is in denial about climate change, but eventually it will wake up. By then it might be too late.

Climate scientists have been trying to alert humanity to its greatest-ever threat for most of the past decade.Last week alone there was confirmation that the destruction of the Larsen B ice shelf in 2002 was caused by Antarctic global warming; that the Gulf Stream was actually turned off briefly in 2004; and that a six-year drought in south Australia has been caused by climate change.

Can the capitalist economy come to the rescue? Stern will argue there could be economic benefits to tackling the carbon economy. We know this very well in Scotland – or at least we should. Sitting on our vast reserves of untapped renewable energy, with the first commercially viable carbon-capture project waiting to go online in Peterhead, we could build the first post-carbon economy tomorrow.

But there is something about market economies that makes it very difficult to make this kind of change other than through economic crisis. This is because it is very difficult to plan for change when you are leaving all the key decisions to economic speculators. They tend to act, not calmly and rationally, but with the instinct of the herd, as they did after the dot.com frenzy in 2000.

Capitalist development is all about discontinuities: “creative destruction”, as the great economist Joseph Schumpeter called it. But this might be a destruction too far; we cannot afford to wait until the market makes its own climate change correction.

It is as if, right at the moment when the world needs a leap of human technological ingenuity, we have lost the capacity for adaptation that made our species so successful. We have become fatalists, passive objects instead of agents of renewal. The market is seen as an inviolable force of nature. Politicians are hypnotised, irrationally convinced of its infallibility in the face of all evidence.We keep waiting for the free market to somehow make it all right.

It is not that we are incapable of acting collectively, even in a capitalist environment. During periods of crisis like the second world war, societies such as ours achieved extraordinary feats of organisation, based on a selfless pursuit of the common good. There’s a lot of evidence that collective, altruistic behaviour is hard-wired into the human animal. We tend naturally to form associations in which the interest of the individual is subsumed in the interest of all.

Yet here is a global emergency, a crisis of biblical proportions, and we seem to have lost our ability to act. We are still promoting air travel, building roads, turning out millions of internal combustion engines, constructing houses that waste energy on a massive scale. “Well,” we say, “the Chinese are building a new coal-fired power station every week, so why should we bother?”

Unfortunately, the triumph of liberal capitalism came at precisely the wrong moment for humanity. Never before in history have governments been so reluctant to intervene as today, at the very moment when they must. We are all waiting for the market to tell us what to do.

Well, the market will get the message in the end, but it is likely to be through the greatest stock-market panic in the history of capitalism. Then will we see what has been staring us in the face.

http://www.sundayherald.com/58769

turambar85
10-29-2006, 07:23 PM
So when are Yoni and the other head-in-the-sand crowd around here going to admit that this is a real problem, that the scientific, business and political leaders of the world already acknowledge the same, and that we must start to act on this now?

When the world ends, and God tells them that they have assisted in destroying "his" creation. Maybe, or they'll just say "hes" not God and that it's all liberal lies and propoganda.

gtownspur
10-29-2006, 07:52 PM
When the world ends, and God tells them that they have assisted in destroying "his" creation. Maybe, or they'll just say "hes" not God and that it's all liberal lies and propoganda.


Fine go corkhole all the volcanic explosions and slip a condom on every third world man before intercourse and burn your electric appliances and ride a camel to work.

otherwise blow me.

turambar85
10-29-2006, 07:56 PM
Fine go corkhole all the volcanic explosions and slip a condom on every third world man before intercourse and burn your electric appliances and ride a camel to work.

otherwise blow me.

Giving you a blow-job probably won't help the environment. Sorry to disappoint you.

gtownspur
10-29-2006, 07:58 PM
Giving you a blow-job probably won't help the environment. Sorry to disappoint you.


You seem to have doubts. :lol

turambar85
10-29-2006, 08:00 PM
Well, if done on election day, perhaps. But even I don't care enough to slake your lusts in such a manner.

gtownspur
10-29-2006, 08:05 PM
Well, if done on election day, perhaps. But even I don't care enough to slake your lusts in such a manner.


WTF!!!

EW!! no,...just no. :lol

turambar85
10-29-2006, 08:08 PM
WTF!!!

EW!! no,...just no. :lol

Youre that upset over my refusal? I'm confused.

turambar85
10-29-2006, 08:09 PM
This thread shouldn't be about Gtowns sexual needs, back to laughing at people like him for trying to bring on the end of the world.

gtownspur
10-29-2006, 08:13 PM
:ttiwwp:

didn't you say that you would on election day,

that's pretty gross.

jochhejaam
10-29-2006, 08:14 PM
This thread shouldn't be about Gtowns sexual needs, back to laughing at people like him for trying to bring on the end of the world.
Because that would be really constructive, wouldn't it...
Way to take the high road.

What's the point of submitting a good article and bashing people at the same time?

turambar85
10-29-2006, 08:17 PM
didn't you say that you would on election day,

that's pretty gross.


No, you said that I, by saying probably, was claiming that there was a chance it could help the environment. I then said that it would help if done on election day. I never agreed to, sorry.

gtownspur
10-29-2006, 08:31 PM
No, you said that I, by saying probably, was claiming that there was a chance it could help the environment. I then said that it would help if done on election day. I never agreed to, sorry.


Gay.

turambar85
10-29-2006, 08:34 PM
Gay.

Thats manly Gtown. Call the guy whos engaged gay. Makes sense.

RuffnReadyOzStyle
10-29-2006, 09:11 PM
Fine go corkhole all the volcanic explosions and slip a condom on every third world man before intercourse and burn your electric appliances and ride a camel to work.

otherwise blow me.

Buddy, hate to blow away your "arguments" with facts but:

1. Krakatoa, the biggest volcanic explosion of the last two centuries, produced around 2% of America's current carbon dioxide emissions for one year. Not only that, but Krakatoa actually resulted in ocean cooling for decades:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7077/full/439675a.html

Volcanoes are not having a significant effect on greenhouse warming - that is BS perpetrated by oil companies, and if you had a clue, you'd bother to check things like that before assuming they are fact.

2. Yes, Third World over-population is a problem, however it is not driving climate change - over-consumption of energy (mostly in the form of electricity and transport) by developed nations is driving climate change. For example, the US produces 30% of the world's CO2 emissions with 4.5% of the world's population. India and China combined, with over 2billion people, produce 18% of CO2 emissions. Africa's contribution to global warming is negligible.

India and China are rapidly developing and thus the future increase in their CO2 emissions is of great concern. But they sure as hell aren't going to do anything about curbing them until we do. If we cap and trade carbon, reducing emissions, develop the technologies domestically to the point of economies of scale, and then sell that technology to India and China at a reasonable price, we could both address the problem and make money from it!

Your shortsightedness is astounding.


PS Oh, and this idea that we have to go back to living in caves or not using electricity IS BOTH COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE AND LUDICROUS! No-one is advocating that, no-one wants that, but we have to start paying the proper price for our energy so that renewables are cost effective. If we (and by that I mean the market) didn't ignore the pollution caused by fossil fuels, we'd already be using renewable sources for electricity generation and transport.

Sorry pal, but here YOU are the Luddite, YOU are the harm causer, and YOU are the one doing nothing about it. Don't be so quick to blame others for your (and my) problem. Find out more about it and do something like a responsible human being.

gtownspur
10-29-2006, 09:14 PM
Buddy, hate to blow away your "arguments" with facts but:

1. Krakatoa, the biggest volcanic explosion of the last two centuries, produced around 2% of America's current annual carbon dioxide emissions. Not only that, but Krakatoa actually resulted in ocean cooling for decades:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7077/full/439675a.html

Volcanoes are not having a significant effect on greenhouse warming - that is BS perpetrated by oil companies, and if you had a clue, you'd bother to check things like that before assuming they are fact.

2. Yes, Third World over-population is a problem, however it is not driving climate change - over-consumption of energy (mostly in the form of electricity and transport) by developed nations is driving climate change. For example, the US produces 30% of the world's CO2 emissions with 4.5% of the world's population. India and China combined, with over 2billion people, produce 18% of CO2 emissions. Africa's contribution to global warming is negligible.

India and China are rapidly developing and thus the future increase in their CO2 emissions is of great concern. But they sure as hell aren't going to do anything about curbing them until we do. If we cap and trade carbon, reducing emissions, develop the technologies domestically to the point of economies of scale, and then sell that technology to India and China at a reasonable price, we could both address the problem and make money from it!

Your shortsightedness is astounding.

You must have the inside track, thinking that china will curb their emissions.

RuffnReadyOzStyle
10-29-2006, 09:23 PM
Um, what can't you understand? As an American, you already produce far more than they do. America - 300mil people, 30% world emissions; India+China - 2.2 bil people, 18% world emissions. So your average American produces about 10-11 times the emissions of your average Chinese/Indian.

Of course they will if a system is put in place to enable it to happen and there's an economic incentive. That incentive is called carbon trading, and a worldwide carbon trading system will bring clean technology into the marketplace. But you can bet they won't do a damn thing until you or I do.

Remember also that they have a lot to lose too - flooding is going to affect Asia and the Pacific worse than anywhere else. That will have a massive social and economic effect on India and China.

I would say their govts will actually be keen to cap and reduce their emissions because they know how much it is going to cost them, but they won't do it until we do. We have the economies and the technology to build clean coal RIGHT NOW, it is only a matter of market failure and lack of moral leadership that prevents us from doing so.

CubanMustGo
10-29-2006, 09:32 PM
Ruff, just forget it. gtown and his ilk are immune to logic when it's contrary to the party line.

jochhejaam
10-29-2006, 09:37 PM
Here's a leaked story from the UK on the impact curbing emission standards for anthropocentric greenhouse gases will have on consumers in it's Country. The U.K. is a signatory and ratifier of the Kyoto Protocol (The U.S has signed but does not intend to ratify).

Secret green tax blitz planned for cars, air travel and consumer goods
[SIZE=1]By SIMON WALTERS, Mail on Sunday

Last updated at 22:28pm on 28th October 2006


Secret plans for a multi-billion-pound package of stealth taxes on fuel, cars, air travel and consumer goods have been drawn up by the government to combat global warming.


The proposals, leaked to The Mail on Sunday, show that the Government is considering introducing a raft of hard-hitting 'eco-taxes' that will have a devastating effect on the cost of living.

Families with big cars could end up paying more than £1,000 a year extra in tax. And nearly every household in Britain will be hit in the pocket.

Most controversial of all, the documents reveal the Government is planning to grab billions of pounds of extra revenue from motorists - without telling them. It is considering introducing a special mechanism so that whenever oil prices go down, the Government would get the cash in extra fuel tax - not the motorist.

A leaked letter from Environment Secretary David Miliband to Chancellor Gordon Brown says the advantage of this is that the Government would gain billions of pounds 'without individual announcements on fuel-duty rises needing to be made'.

The Government was immediately accused by the Conservatives of trying to introduce more 'stealth taxes' and failing to be honest with voters about the consequences of dealing with climate change.

The leak comes 24 hours before Tony Blair launches a major report warning that floods and other natural disasters caused by global warming will spark an economic catastrophe worse than the 1929 Wall Street Crash. But the report, by economist Sir Nicholas Stern, does not reveal what the Government plans to do about it.

But a leaked letter written from Mr Miliband to Mr Brown on October 18 and obtained by The Mail on Sunday spells out the grim reality: wide-ranging tax rises that will have a dramatic impact on family incomes.

Mr Miliband calls for tough measures to combat 'car use and ownership' with a 'substantial increase' in road tax, which currently costs a maximum of £210 a year. Mr Miliband says road tax should copy the 'success' of company-car taxes which forced people to switch to smaller vehicles with annual levies of up to £5,000.

He also suggests a 'Treasury mechanism' allowing the Government to benefit from any fall in oil prices and reintroducing the 'fuel-duty escalator', which put up the duty on petrol by five per cent over inflation until Mr Brown ordered a freeze in 1999.

Mr Miliband calls for a new 'pay-per-mile pollution tax' on motorists. And he urges VAT on air travel to EU destinations and new taxes on inefficient washing machines and light bulbs.

He also backs fresh laws to let town halls impose a 'rubbish tax' on households by using 'spies' placed in dustbins to weigh non-recyclable refuse.

The letter says: 'Differential charging for waste at household level can have a significant role to play and local authorities should be given the powers to do so.'

Mr Miliband also called for landfill tax - paid by businesses and local councils that bury rubbish - to be increased from £21 a ton to £75. But one environmental expert said this could lead to more fly-tipping unless it is properly policed.

The letter to Mr Brown, marked 'Restricted', demands urgent and radical action in next month's public-spending review and next year's Budget.

Changing people's behaviour can be achieved only by 'market forces and price signals', it says, adding: 'Market-based instruments, including taxes, need to play a substantial role. As our understandings of climate change increases, it is clear more needs to be done.'

The Government must 'increase the pace of existing tax measures, broaden them into sectors where incentives to cut carbon emissions are weak and identify new instruments to drive progress in tackling greenhouse gas'.

An aide to Mr Miliband said: "We don't comment on leaked documents. These are ideas, not a package of measures." An ally of Mr Brown added: "The Chancellor does not approve of conducting Government business on the basis of leaks."

Tory environment spokesman Peter Ainsworth said: "No one is more committed to tackling climate change than the Conservatives. But if the Government wants to deal with it successfully, it must do so in an upfront way instead of bringing in stealth taxes by the back door.

"As with everything this Government does, the devil is in the detail. If motorists and consumers think all the Government wants to do is to slap taxes on everything, they may respond negatively.

"Tony Blair's Government has sat on its hands for ten years. Tackling the enormous challenge of climate change would have been much easier if they hadn't left it so late."

Professor Julian Morris, environmental economist at Birmingham University and director of the International Policy Network, a free-market think-tank, called the new taxes "underhand" and accused the Government of "nannying".

Here we reveal the taxes proposed by Mr Miliband, Professor Morris's opinion of them - and, crucially, what they will cost taxpayers.

• How it will affect family budgets

A couple with two children and a big car could see their annual bills increase by about £1,300 a year if the new 'green' stealth taxes go ahead. Even people with average cars could be £750 a year worse off.

The Miliband memo gives few details on the level of the new taxes. But The Mail on Sunday has compiled a budget - using cautious estimates - showing how families could be hit, based on conversations with Government insiders:

Chelsea tractor tax: Road tax disc on Toyota Landcruiser trebled from £210 to £630 and doubled from £150 to £300 for Vauxhall Zafira.

Petrol-will-never-be-cheap tax: The new Treasury plan to raise fuel tax when oil prices drop could raise pump prices by 5p a litre (22p a gallon).

A family with a gas-guzzling car who drive 15,000 miles a year would face an extra £130 annual petrol bill. A return to automatic annual fuel duty rises at five per cent above inflation could add a further 5p per litre, doubling the additional cost to £260 for a 4x4, £130 for an average car.

Pay-as-you-drive tax: New tax to make motorists pay for all environmental damage including carbon emissions, congestion, noise and damage to the ozone layer could mean a 2p-per-mile tax on all journeys for big cars, costing £300 on 15,000 annual mileage and £150 (1p a mile) for average vehicles.

Cheap flights tax: VAT at 17.5 per cent on EU airline flights would increase the typical £500 bill for family of four to fly on holiday to the Mediterranean to £587.50. An extra £5 air passenger duty each would add extra £40. Total extra: £127.50.

Light bulb tax: New levy on energy-wasting appliances could mean £50 tax on cheap washing machines, dishwashers and tumble-dryers. New £1.50 tax on old-fashioned light bulbs to halve the price gap with energy-saving ones. Total extra cost £56. (Based on an average of one new appliance a year plus four light bulbs.)

Total extra cost: A family of four with a large car would therefore pay an extra £420 in road tax, £260 in fuel duty, £300 pollution tax, £127.50 aviation tax, and £56 on washing machines and light bulbs, making a grand total of £1,163.50.

Extra revenue for the Treasury: Up to £7billion.
(1 British pounds = 1.8916 U.S. dollars)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=413216&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5

RuffnReadyOzStyle
10-29-2006, 10:44 PM
I'm all for socio-ecological taxation, basically consumption taxes in line with the quantity of energy/water (the two main limiting factors in the world today) that goes into a product.

The idea is this - you vastly reduce income tax - and you shift the tax burden onto consumption. That way people are directly paying for the energy/water used to produce what they buy, and there is a large incentive not to waste. If people choose to consume less then they will save more, which will also help to plug the large savings gaps in countries like the US and Australia, rather than simply plunging into more and more consumptiom-driven debt. My, what a logical idea! Curb the rampant, out-of-control consumption of the developed world*, and encourage saving/debt reduction at the same time.

Makes so much sense, but it will not happen under today's politico-economic paradigm because, SHOCK HORROR (!), it could lead to economies growing more slowly. Forget the fact that consumption-demand-fueled economic growth has to end some time this century anyway (because we are simply running out of raw materials)... :rolleyes

*world energy demand is set to rise by 75% to 2030, for example.

RuffnReadyOzStyle
10-29-2006, 10:50 PM
Ruff, just forget it. gtown and his ilk are immune to logic when it's contrary to the party line.

Yeah, they go very quiet when I actually bring FACTS and LOGIC into the argument, don't they?

Nah, I will never shut up though. And I don't even want an apology from people like Yoni for the implication that the stuff I've written here was somehow partisan bullshit designed to mislead people when it never was - all I've ever done is report the science and urge people to follow it up, and that is continually borne out by the facts that keep surfacing each day about the world's growing cognisance of the EGW problem AT ALL LEVELS. I'll also let it slip that they were actually the ones using lies to mislead people.

I would, however, like them to admit that they are wrong and that something needs to be done. Then maybe we can get together and argue over what that something is and the means for doing it! :lol