Adaptable Popovich is among NBA's best

[KoriEllis]

Adaptable Popovich is among NBA's best
Charley Rosen / Special to FOXSports.com
Posted: 41 minutes ago

msn.foxsports.com/story/3026598 (http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3026598)

This guy can do it all. He can work with veterans and he can also develop rookies. From the All-Stars to the scrubs, Gregg Popovich has earned the admiration of the vast majority of his players — even those who don't get the daylight they feel they deserve — and they all gladly accept their assigned roles.

Why is this so? Because Popovich is an honest man in a profession that's populated by too many snake oil salesmen.
Just how honest is he? Back in the late 1980s when he was a Spurs assistant, Popovich made no secret that the biggest problem with David Robinson's game plan was that the Admiral had too many outsides interests — including playing the piano and fiddling with computers — to truly love playing basketball. Interesting, however, that Robinson's passion for the game turned fiery shortly after Pop became the Spurs' commander-in-chief.

There's no question that Popovich is also renowned as a masterful manipulator of Xs and Os, yet his game-time flexibility is a secret ingredient that's likewise been critical to his success: He can be cool on the bench, but when the necessity arises he can also breathe fire. His teams can run or grunt, finesse or bang — whatever it takes to win.

While a coach's capacity to provide leadership is certainly important, it's also a vastly overrated quality. An NBA coach is, after all, a civilian. Whether he's sitting, squatting, standing, or pacing the sidelines, a coach wears a monkey suit and merely hovers on the physical periphery of the game at hand. True leadership must come from the players themselves — whether by encouraging, scolding, advising and/or providing an example for their teammates. What a coach can do is create an environment of respect and cooperation. And nobody does this better than Popovich.

That's exactly why the Spurs' team chemistry is as precious and immutable as a gold ring (make that two gold rings).

Pop's generic defense is always active — poaching the passing lanes, rotating to help situations with speed and precision, sealing ball penetration, pouncing on loose balls, and hustling in transition. On offense, his teams are invariably unselfish and take great pleasure in finding the open man. They'll run multiple loops, dives and rubs in their early offense. In half-courts sets, the Spurs use screen/rolls to either get Tony Parker into the paint, or to force the defense to scramble and thereby uncover San Antonio's shooters.

Tim Duncan, of course, is at the hub of most of Popovich's half-court alignments, and his clutch-shooting, his versatility, unselfishness, and decision-making are unsurpassed among the league's big men. Popovich's most noticeable flaw, however, is his occasional stubbornness — against some bigger, stronger opponents, TD would be better used at the high post (to say nothing of the diminished wear and tear on his body parts). But Popovich frequently goes with what he wants to do, instead of with what may work best. This is a minor quibble, however, and only proves that Pop isn't quite perfect. Back when the 6'2", 200-pound Popovich was playing for the Air Force Academy (1968-1970), his game was noteworthy for his shooting prowess. Accordingly, the several editions of his San Antonio teams have tended to be jump-shot happy. This predilection, of course, led to dire consequences in last season's postseason matchup with the Lakers.

It's no secret that the Western Conference will be incredibly competitive in the forthcoming campaign. So what might Popovich reasonably expect from his team?

Brent Barry will certainly improve the Spurs' propensity to die by the jump shot. Bruce Bowen is arguably the best defensive wing-man around. Parker is another year older and should bring an increased maturity to his sometimes helter-skelter game. Radoslav Nesterovic remains a point-minded center who'd rather fade away than bang. After his gold-medal performance in Athens, Manu Ginobili has every reason to perform with more confidence and more consistency than ever before. And Duncan might indeed be motivated to trump his bronze medal with another gold ring.

The key to the Spurs' ultimate destiny, though, may be the ability of Malik Rose to make a forceful re-emergence as a powerhouse rebounder and interior scorer.

Whatever needs must be met, whatever adjustments must be made on the run, count on Pop to get the job done in a timely and effective fashion. That's because Gregg Popovich is undoubtedly the NBA's most accomplished coach.

[timvp]

The key to the Spurs' ultimate destiny, though, may be the ability of Malik Rose to make a forceful re-emergence as a powerhouse rebounder and interior scorer.

Even the media is starting to catch on. Eventually Spurs fans will see the light.

[IcemanCometh]

Popovich made no secret that the biggest problem with David Robinson's game plan was that the Admiral had too many outsides interests — including playing the piano and fiddling with computers — to truly love playing basketball.

Don't let Whott see that

[Pooh]

Lord no....pop is horrible.

[SAmikeyp]

He must have done something right, two titles and all.

[T Park Num 9]

damn, this article is gonna piss Aggie off..........

[SpursFanInAustin]

TPark, don't forget about Sequ

John Lucas > Pop. :spin

[SequSpur]

Pop might be likeable or whatever, but he can thank Tim Duncan and David Robinson for his success. It ain't like he took the Clippers to the promise land.

He is just fucking lucky.

[Whottt]

Don't let Whott see that

It's called coaching and trying to get the best out of your best player and it is hardly unique to Pop...Not that Pop is flawless anyway. Besides, Drob, like all bigmen was the main suspect of blame when his team failed to suceed.

They called Wilt soft.
They said Kareem didn't care(even after he won upteen NBA titles).
They call Shaq lazy.
They said Hakeem was selfish.
And now, they even say Duncan is too timid.

Drob still drops the ultimate **** you on you Ice, and all who criticized his demeanor and questioned his desire...

He said point blank up till the last game of his career that he didn't judge himself by NBA titles, that there were more important things to him than basketball. At the trophy presentation of the Spurs last championship he said don't praise these men for winning an NBA title, praise them because they are good men...

That's DRob's way of saying **** you as he waves his two rings in your face.

How many does Moses have? Or Karl(I'll injure people to win) Malone?

And be glad Drob had other interests...otherwise he probably never would have been a Spur in the first place and we wouldn't have a team now.

[IcemanCometh]

Uhm Moses has 1 along with a finals mvp, Karl tho has none.

[Tommy Duncan]

Um David needed the Spurs to land a 1st team All-NBA bigman in the draft in order to grab those rings.

If only he had one tenth the desire that AJ had. If only.

[SAmikeyp]

Yeah he didn't have any talent or anything. :rolleyes


Its amazing how not being consumed with all things basketball was seen as a negative despite all the positive things Dave did.

Whottt...who said Wilt was soft? I would like some proof on that. Not saying you are wrong....just would like to know who would be that misguided.

I remember the "Kareem doesn't care" talk. Interesting. I don't see how someone could be the player he was and not care.

Hakeem selfish? Is calling for the ball in crunch time selfish? Again..would have to see proof on that.

Shaq is lazy, you can see it in his play.

[Tommy Duncan]

Pay attention.

The point is that David had all world talent, but the desire for the game was not there. This is not exactly a secret.

[IcemanCometh]

David cared more about other things, theres nothing wrong with that.

[SAmikeyp]

There had to be some desire there...otherwise he could not have been the player he was. Maybe not to the level you would have liked but he must have been doing something right.

[Tommy Duncan]

Nothing wrong with that Ice, unless you wanted to see the Spurs win a title pre-1997.

[picnroll]

When it's all said and done there's no player in the NBA, talent, intensity, whatever, that I'd rather have had play for, represent and continue to represent the SA community than Robinson. Not Wilt, not MJ, not Kareem, certainly not Kobe.

... but Duncan is a pretty good second choice.

[tlongII]

Popovich is one of the most OVER-rated coaches in the NBA! I have no respect for a guy that jettison's his coach after landing the #1 pick in the draft (Duncan) who he knows will single-handedly turn the franchise around. Popovich is a snake.

[From Way Downtown]

. . . except that Popovich didn't jettison his coach after learning that the Spurs would have the #1 pick. Tim Duncan was drafted in 1997, some 8 months after Popovich took over as head coach. He fired Bob Hill after the Spurs got out to a 3-14 start in 1996-97. He fired Bob Hill after the players approached him and asked him to send Hill packing.

Other than misunderstanding all of the facts, you're right.

[GODADDYSA]

funny

[T Park Num 9]

I have no respect for a guy that jettison's his coach after landing the #1 pick in the draft

Only problem there T Dumb,


He fired him in the season before they got Duncan.



Get yer facts straight der sunny.......

[Whottt]

Mikey it's not worth it. You can't win an argument with intellectually dishonest people like Ice and MB because they will just step outside of reality and make shit up anytime they are on the ropes.

Case in point...Icemancometh is by far the biggest Drob hater on this board and he always has been, he used to make anti Drob posts as a regular habit...he has done nothing but find ways to trivialize and diminish the Admirals career as long as I have seen him post.

And I can gurantee you it's because he thinks the Admiral was "too white"...not because of anything David Robinson ever did, or failed to do, on the court.

Marcus Bryant claims to be some extaordinary SpursFan and constantly harrasses me with lame commentary like Coyote > Drob...

Yet look who he sides with in this thread? Look how many people he rates over David Robinson in this thread...

You see him hold David Robinson singlehandely responsible for our pre 97 failure to win an NBA title...you see him put AJ, Pop and Duncan all over David Robinson in this very thread.

If you listen to his comments for very long you will think we won a title inspite Avery Johnson being held down by David Robinson.

[Whottt]

And hey Marcus, rather than Drob increasing his desire...how about fucking AJ developing the ability to hit a shot outside of 10 feet while Drob is being double teamed.

Giving Duncan credit for those titles shows how limited your view of the game is...in fact...this past summer we watched Duncan get beaten by one of his own teamates while he was surrounded by an All Star Team...and Duncan made it clear he had had enough after these Olympics.

David Robinson also had to go through the ignomy of the being the first USA basketball player of his kind to be humiliated in international play...to be blindsided by a team much better than anyone expected.

Did he quit? No, in fact he pretty much gave up his career as a star by going back to play international ball again and again and playing with sevre injury.

Basketball may not have been the most important thing to DRob...but that doesn't mean he didn't play as hard or harder than anyone...and anyone that watched his career, watched the beatings he took in the post in the playoffs, watched the look of absolute defeat he wore on his face at the conclusion of the 94-95 WCF, and saw the look of absolute relief(not joy) on his face after we finally won a title...would never doubt how much effort he put into to winning a title..regardless of whether or not he liked the internet.

As many have noted...Basketball wasn't David Robinsons favorite thing...but that doesn't mean he didn't play hard...he played as hard as anyone, because it was his job, his duty.

When you show me other players that gave up the second half of their career by playing for their country with a hernia, in the Olympics..I might be willing to admit Drob didn't play as hard as anyone else...but it's just not true.

[Tommy Duncan]

I've never claimed to be an "extraordinary SpursFan", whatever that means.

It's not a secret and it's not exactly that controversial of a statement to say that David Robinson did not live and breathe the game as did other players.

This discussion is not about whether DRob is a wonderful human being or not, let alone whether or not he was the most important bipedal organism to the Spurs. It is about his desire and passion for the game and that was clearly not the same as his peers.

[Jimcs50]

The Spurs will never win their 3rd ring with Pop at the helm.:p

[SAmikeyp]

It is about his desire and passion for the game and that was clearly not the same as his peers.

My point was that this was not a negative thing. You seem to think it is.

[From Way Downtown]

My point was that this was not a negative thing. You seem to think it is.

I don't think too many would argue that David's lack of single-minded focus on basketball was a bad thing, in the main. I do think, however, that David earned a lot of criticism during his career with his apparent nonchalance about winning basketball games. Say that's not a negative if you will, but that mentality doesn't apply with any great force in the real world. I suspect that most who are in need of legal help wouldn't go to an attorney who has lots of outside interests and makes the practice of law a 4th or 5th priority -- and particularly if that attorney doesn't have a track record of winning when it matters.

Look, I love what David Robinson did for the Spurs and I admire the man like few others. But, like it or not, while David Robinson was among the most dominant players in the NBA, the Spurs struggled to win in the playoffs, and David's numbers tended to fall off as the playoff competition heated up. I would tend to agree that you can't place all of the blame at David Robinson's feet, but you also can't absolve him of any responsibility for the Spurs failures between 1990 and 1998.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

hey ummm.. didn't marcus bryant leave this board?

[RobinsontoDuncan]

BTW David Robinson was one of the most heated competitors ive ever seen, especially in the later stages of his career when he was hobbled but continued to give his all

[Tommy Duncan]

My point was that this was not a negative thing. You seem to think it is.

When it came to what happened on the hardwood, it was.

[Whottt]

That's great FWDT...just be sure to aim that same criticism at:

Michael Jordan - Who has never hidden the fact that he loved baseball more than basketball, and took 2 years off in the prime of his career to play baseball. He played basketball because he was good at it...just like David Robinson.

Hakeem Olajuwon - Who repeatedly faked injuries and refused to play when he was unhappy with his contract situation.

Bill Russell - Who said playing basketball was secondary to him to breaking down racial barriers and sterotypes in Boston and the NBA.

Russell's standing response to any Bostonian that asked if he was a pro basketball player was no. Because he wanted to be known as a man first and an athlete second.

And he also said that for him success is a journey, not a destination...which is exactly what Drob said about winning an NBA title. The journey is the most important part.

Shaquille O'Neal - Who elected to get his surgeries done on company time "since he got injured on company time".

Tim Duncan - Who refused to play on an injured knee that he could have played on. Drob shouldn't have played with hernia...he did. He also finished his career playing with a torn meniscus...what was Duncan's injury again?

Should I keep going on?

David Robinson's passion is service...to his community, his god, his country and when he played for the Spurs, the Spurs.

And David was willing to do whatever it took to win...even when it meant giving up credit and being superstar. Obviously winning was all that mattered to Drob on the basketball court...just not in life.

Frankly you guys don't deserve David Robinson having played for your team if you question his character...

FWDT...I am not even going to get into that statistical evaluation you tried to make of Drob's character...Go take a look at Duncan's stats from the Phoenix series in 03...Was it just that his passion was low for that particular series?

[SAmikeyp]

Really? Then I guess he couldn't do all of this?

Pay attention, now.

MVP
Defensive Player of the Year
Rookie of the Year
Rebounding Title
Blocked Shots Title
Scoring Title
A 10-time All-Star
one of the NBA's 50 Greatest Players

oh yeah, and two championships.

[Tommy Duncan]

For the 43,754th time, pointing out that the passion in DRob's life was not basketball is not questioning him as a man, but rather as a basketball player.

[Tommy Duncan]

Again, the point is that he could have done a lot more given his talent.

[SAmikeyp]

I know what you are saying...that is why I was pointing out his basketball accomplishments.

Pay attention.

[Tommy Duncan]

Oh ok.

[Whottt]

RtoD...Some just don't understand the concept of proffesionalism - The commitment to doing something well because it is your job and responsibility..even if it isn't your first love or your passion.

[Whottt]

Uhoh...Tim Duncan's passion is swimming. He plays basketball because his pool broke.

Guess Duncan isn't as good as he could be and is the reason the Spurs don't win a title every year.

A quick statistical evaluation of Duncan's Olympic performance using the FWDT standard clearly shows that team USA lost because Duncan didn't have passion in that series. Hmmm...his comments about never playing FIBA ball again bear this out...

Just imagine how good Duncan would be if he actually wanted play basketball enough to represent Team USA a record 8 times while holding down an NBA career.

[Tommy Duncan]

Oh, I'm quite aware of what it means to be a professional.

That's besides the point. David Robinson played basketball because he was good at it and it paid extremely well, not because he loved it.

[From Way Downtown]

I know I shouldn't do this -- it's like arguing with a wall -- but I feel like I should at least take some of this on. Note, whottt, that my quarrel isn't that David didn't love basketball -- David's diverse interests are among the many things that I genuinely appreciate about the man. But, I'm also unwilling to allow David's remarkable renaissance qualities to be an excuse for his participation in so many Spurs failures on the basketball court between 1990 and 1996.


That's great FWDT...just be sure to aim that same criticism at:

Michael Jordan - Who has never hidden the fact that he loved baseball more than basketball, and took 2 years off in the prime of his career to play baseball. He played basketball because he was good at it...just like David Robinson.

You mean the same Michael Jordan who won 3 NBA titles before he took 2 years off -- who reached several other Eastern Conference Finals before that, and who was very clearly the most ferious competitor of his generation? Jordan's outside interests never interfered with his single-minded focus on winning titles.


Hakeem Olajuwon - Who repeatedly faked injuries and refused to play when he was unhappy with his contract situation.

The same Hakeem Olajuwon who was Tim Duncan to Ralph Sampson's David Robinson in the original incarnation of the Twin Towers, and whose second-year presence in 1986 pushed the Rockets into the NBA Finals? Do you also mean the same Hakeem Olajuwon who took such issue with David Robinson winning the MVP in 1995 that he basically dismantled Dave for most of the Western Conference Finals? He may have been dissatisfied with the Rockets, but the man brought it at playoff time and carried teams to 3 Finals and 2 titles.


Bill Russell - Who said playing basketball was secondary to him to breaking down racial barriers and sterotypes in Boston and the NBA.

Russell's standing response to any Bostonian that asked if he was a pro basketball player was no. Because he wanted to be known as a man first and an athlete second.

And he also said that for him success is a journey, not a destination...which is exactly what Drob said about winning an NBA title. The journey is the most important part.

That's one of the many wonderful things about Bill Russell, and David Robinson is to be lauded for the same reasons. But Bill Russell has 11 rings to his credit to go along with being a man first and an athlete second, and, as with Jordan, nobody ever had any reason to question Russell's devotion to the game.

As for the journey thing -- then why doesn't Karl Malone's lack of ultimate success give him the same pass that you're willing to give to David? After all, Malone has off-court interests too. Hasn't his journey been one of the more perilous in the history of the NBA? Is it just because you don't like Karl Malone?


Shaquille O'Neal - Who elected to get his surgeries done on company time "since he got injured on company time".

Again, it's a matter of competitive will and finding success. Shaq had won 3 titles by the time that incident arose. I quarrel with his decision and it may evidence that Shaq had begun to lose his motivation, but I don't think it diminishes his historical legacy as a competitor.


Tim Duncan - Who refused to play on an injured knee that he could have played on. Drob shouldn't have played with hernia...he did. He also finished his career playing with a torn meniscus...what was Duncan's injury again?

I'll look to find it, but I'm pretty sure I read a story this summer in which Popovich was quoted as saying that Tim couldn't have played on his knee and that any effort to play would have jeopardized his career. And, again, Tim had already established his competitive nature by that point -- nobody questioned whether Tim could lead his team through a title drive.


David Robinson's passion is service...to his community, his god, his country and when he played for the Spurs, the Spurs.

And David was willing to do whatever it took to win...even when it meant giving up credit and being superstar. Obviously winning was all that mattered to Drob on the basketball court...just not in life.

Frankly you guys don't deserve David Robinson having played for your team if you question his character...

Read my post again -- I never once questioned David Robinson's character. I have reservations about proclaiming him a ferocious competitor, but I'm glad that he played for my team and I'm thankful for all that he ultimately accomplished. But with that said, I'm in the camp that firmly believes that the Spurs of the 90's could have accomplished a great deal more, and might have very well done so had David been a bit more focused on winning basketball games and a little less willing to take things as they came.


FWDT...I am not even going to get into that statistical evaluation you tried to make of Drob's character...Go take a look at Duncan's stats from the Phoenix series in 03...Was it just that his passion was low for that particular series?

I would hope that you would admit that there is a substantial difference between a guy having his scoring numbers down because teams undertake efforts to neutralize him, and a guy being ineffective at playoff time. Duncan was the singular focus of Phoenix during that series, but remarkably, the dude put up a triple-double in the clinching game and lead his team in every significant category (points, rebounds, assists, blocks). While his points scored were down from his regular season numbers (18.7 down from 23.3), his rebounds (16.0, up from 12.9), assists (5.2, up from 3.9) and blocks (3.5, up from 2.9) were up substantially during that series. More importantly, for the entire playoff run, Tim's numbers were across-the-board better in the playoffs then they had been during the 2002-03 season. (24.7 points, 15.4 rebounds, 5.3 assists, and 3.3 blocks).

Compare that to this: in his career, David Robinson's playoff scoring average exceeded his regular season scoring average on 3 occasions. In 1991 (when the Spurs were eliminated 1-3 by Golden State) David increased his scoring by .2 points per game. In 2000 (when Duncan was injured and the Spurs were eliminated 1-3 by Phoenix) David increased his scoring by 5.7 points per game. And in 2001 (when the Spurs beat Minnesota and Dallas, but were swept by the Lakers in the WCF), David increased his scoring by 2.2 points per game. That's 3 occasions. Meanwhile, during the height of his career, David's playoff scoring dipped below his regular season averages in 1994 (-9.8 ppg), 1995 (-2.3 ppg), 1996 (-1.4 ppg), and 1998 (-2.2. ppg).

Compare all of that to Tim Duncan, whose playoff scoring has exceeded his regular season average in 4 different seasons: 1999 (+1.5 ppg), 2001 (+2.2 ppg), 2002 (+2.1 ppg), and 2003 (+1.4 ppg). Tim's two falloff years are barely noticeable as well: 1998 (-0.4 ppg) and 2004 (-0.2 ppg).

I can go on, but I think it would belabor the point.

Look, I've never said it was all David's fault -- it certainly didn't help that Vinny Del Negro and Chuck Person fell apart against Houston in 1995. It didn't help that Rod Strickland and Sean Elliott weren't on the same page in Portland in 1990. It didn't help that Dennis Rodman went nuclear in 1994. But even with all of those truths, the constant for all of those seasons was David, who can't be held blameless, regardless of the wistful appreciation for his journey.

[SAmikeyp]

I believe that David does love basketball....just not as much as his family or his faith.

And contrary to popular opinion...that is not a bad thing.

[Whottt]

First of all with Hakeem...tell me, since Hakeem had so much more passion than David Robinson how come it took him 10 years to win an NBA title? The same abount of years it took David Robinson...especially since Hakeem had his version of David Robinson early in his career?

Tell me, where was Hakeem's passion in his 7 first round exits(to David's 2 first round exits)? In his 0-3 sweep out of the first round...in his failure to make the playoffs in the 91-92 season?

Similarly...where was Jordan's passion the first 6-7 years of his career? Where was it in his 2 sweeps out of the first round?

Where was it the first 3 years of his career when his team failed to even post a winning record?


Where was Shaq's passion the first 7- 8 seasons of his career?

Where was it the 5 times his team was swept out of the playoffs(including 1 first round sweep)? The year his team failed to make the playoffs?

How come Shaq's passion doesn't get questioned when his team was beaten 4-0 by a team that only beat DRob's 4-2...

How come Shaq isn't judged by 1 series against Hakeem like David Robinson is?

How come Shaq is judged by his later success(that came after he got a 2 guard people compare to Jordan) and given credit for being passionate about the game, yet David Robinson is judged for losing with far inferior teams in less embarrasing fashion than any of these guys?

[Whottt]

And most importantly...

I would hope Duncan's numbers are better than his regular season numbers...

You do realize that Duncan has never bettered David Robinson's best in any single regular season category don't you?


And guess what? If Duncan had posted David's regular season numbers, his own post season numbers would look inferior to his regular season numbers as well...

David had no level to kick it up to higher because he brought at his highest level every night...he had too..or his team would lose. 5 IBM Awards say I am right. 5 IBM awards and the fact that Hakeem Passionate Olajuwon only finished ahead of David Robinson in the divisional race 2 times say I am right. Perhaps David Robinson's post season numbers apprear dissappointing because he did not have the luxury of taking it easy in the regular season..or perhaps he didn't allow himself too...inspite of his lack of passion.

5 unbiased, statistically based IBM awards say David Robinson did more to help his team than any other player in the NBA between 1989-1996...

Perhaps that is why if teams focused on stopping him, as teams are wont to do in the post season, his team looked like the lottery team it was...

How come Duncan's unselfishness in the Phoenix series wasn't repeated last season against LA?

How come he didn't just decide to post a triple double then?

Could it be because Duncan's passion for passing out of a double team had taken a vacation to Atlanta, or decided to broadcast games with Marv Albert and Mike Fratello?

I think if you look at the decline of David's post season numbers you will see they begin with the departure of Rod Strickland, the injury of Willie Anderson...and the arrival of Avery "David Robinson made more playoff 3 pointers than I did" Johnson.

Too bad Avery didn't share David's passion to develop a fucking 3 point shot to the level of a first grader.

[T Park Num 9]

boy,

and to think.


Whottt thinks Coyote > D Rob


imagine the diatribes hed write for......


Damn forgot, He already has.

[Whottt]

Ahh and what thread would be complete without the voice of dumbass. Pop knobsucker #1.

You can always count on TPark num suck to up the IQ level of a thread.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

That's besides the point. David Robinson played basketball because he was good at it and it paid extremely well, not because he loved it.

Is this Marcus Bryant or Stephen A. Smith??!!




I think David loved the game of basketball more than you give him credit for.

If David was all talent and no desire he never would have made the impact on the game that he did. If he didn't love basketball he would have retired the minute his back starting giving him fits. If Mr. Robinson didn't love basketball he probably wouldn't have gone for 13 and 17 on bum sticks the last game of his career. If basketball was just a passing interest he probably wouldn't spend so much time sitting across from his former teammates cheering them on now that he is retired.

There are a lot of guys with talent who merely go through the motions in order to collect a check. I would never put David in that group. He may not have expressed himself as passionately as a naive "fan" would have liked, but his love for the game is obvious to me. You couldn't play the game as well as he did, at the top level, and not love what you do.

For examples of resumes on players with talent who were only there to collect a paycheck please see:

Olowokandi, Michael
Longley, Luc
Smith, Charles I
Bowie, Sam

[Admiral]

Amazing thread. I must weigh in.

First of all, just because you don't love something the most doesn't mean that you don't love it at all or not enough. To those of you who are married with kids, let's assume that you love your wife with all of your heart. She's #1 to you. As a result, you love your children second. Does it mean that you don't love your kids a whole bunch, simply because you love your wife more? Does it mean that your children don't matter to you? The answer in both cases is obviously no.

It's obvious that DRob wasn't obsessed with basketball. He made that quite clear, but I would argue that he did love it a great deal and have a very strong desire to improve. Maybe it was just me, but I remember feeling really sorry for him when he would talk about his desire to improve his game and his desire to have a great cast of teammates around him. It was important to him to win a title and be seen as a winner, especially since he received so much negative press after the Houston series.

To those of you who followed college basketball when DRob was at the Naval Academy, remember his freshman year? Probably not, because he entered college with a grand total of one year of organized basketball to his resume. ONE YEAR. Just three years later, he was putting up 28 points, 12 boards, 4.5 blocks, and shooting 60% from the floor. Those are amazing numbers. Did he improve that much simply because he was a good athlete? No, he improved due to a ton of hard work during the course of his collegiate career. It didn't come naturally to him - I remember a quote from his coach talking about how hard it was to motivate him - but he eventually learned to love it. From unknown player to college player of the year. How often does that happen? If it happened to anyone else besides DRob, would you assume that they worked their butt off to get to that level? Probably so.

Furthermore, to those of you who have been Spurs fans longer than we've been winning titles, remember DRob when he came into the league? He was tall, skinny, athletic, and very raw. His collegiate numbers were questioned because he did not play in a top conference. He had a great rookie year, but his game was not polished. In just a few short seasons, DRob had elevated his game to MVP level. The form on his jumpshot was much improved. He had a scoring title, a rebounding title, a blocked shots title, and a Defensive Player of the Year award to his credit. He made those around him better players. He added 20 pounds of muscle to his frame during this time as well. Tell me, did these things improve because David's competition got worse? No. Did these aspects of DRob's game improve because he became a better athlete during those three years? No. Again, these things improved because David got in there and worked his tail off and improved his skills. Such changes are not easy to come by in the NBA. Unfortunately for David, he made it look easy and as a result people tend to discredit his accomplishments.

It always amazes me how people - even Spurs fans - seem to act as if David has genetic gifts that others in the NBA don't have. Yeah, David was tall and quick, but that isn't nearly enough to make you an MVP and two-time champion. To even last in the league, you have to have heart and desire. The fact that some are questioning that desire is simply amazing to me.

You don't have to like his beliefs, or his devotion to his family, or even the fact that basketball did not consume him like it does Jordan. But please, recognize the fact that he worked his tail off for the team, the city, and the fans who adored him, simply because he felt that was his duty and the game meant that much to him.

[KoriEllis]

Great post, Admiral. Welcome back. How was your summer?

[Admiral]

Hi Kori. My summer was great. I am actually living in Washington, DC now and attending Georgetown University medical school. Yes, I'm a HOYA if you can believe that. Oh the irony.

I don't have much time to post but would like to do a better job of being active on the board. I hope everyone here is doing well. Go Spurs!

[KoriEllis]

A girl I went to highschool with went to med school there.

Good luck with everything. Post when you can.

[From Way Downtown]

Not to restart an unnecessary debate, but I do want to clarify that my quarrel in this post is with the idea that David Robinson was somehow just an unfortunate victim in the Spurs' playoff woes between 1990 and 1998. Don't get me wrong, David Robinson is a man that most of us should aspire to be like -- he's got those renaissance qualities that are rarely found in the world and that are virtually unheard of in the world of professional sports. But I also think that some are willing to look at David Robinson "the whole man" and use that to excuse David Robinson from bearing any responsibility for the Spurs' failures. If David was responsible for their successes, his documented drop-offs in production come playoff time have to make him accountable for their failures, too. That's all I'm saying.

As whottt correctly noted, there is a strong argument to say that David Robinson was, at worst, in the top 3 most-dominant NBA players between, say 1992-1995. During that time when Michael and Hakeem were elevating their games at playoff time and leading their teams in gringing out wins and series, and ultimately, winning titles, David Robinson's Spurs were doing neither, and seemingly, that failure did not affect David Robinson. That, to me at least, is where the questions arose about David's desire to truly compete. As the frustrations mounted, David carried a certain nonchalance with him -- that nonchalance was certainly driven, at least in part, by his renaissance qualities, but as a fan who spends a significant amount of time and money watching that team and as a former athlete, I found the nonchalance a bit off-putting. Here's one of the most dominant players in the history of the NBA, and he's publicly unconcerned (or at least unmoved) by the repeated failures of his team? The most colorful David ever got upon elimination was in Salt Lake City in 1996, when he called Steve Javie "bullshit," after Javie dinged him with some cheapies in Game 6. But even that missed the mark, from my perspective, because regardless of the accuracy of his assessment, it still didn't address the ultimate issue, which was that a 59-win Spurs team was utterly uncompetitive against an inferior Jazz team in Games 1, 3 and 4 of that series (when they lost by 20, 30, and 15).

I watched the Spurs for the duration of David's career -- in fact, I've been watching the Spurs since Larry Kenon was silky smooth on the break and back when the Whopper was patrolling the middle during those Eastern Conference days (to say nothing of Ice and Silas, Mike Gale and Mark Olberding, to name a few). David is a transcendant figure in Spurs history for a number of reasons, not the least of which is his critical role in keeping the SPurs in San Antonio. I appreciate David Robinson for all of those things -- I truly do, regardless of what whottt and others might intimate. I understand that David was a late bloomer and a developing project for most of the early years of his career. I also appreciate that David worked very hard to become a great basketball player -- a goal that he eventually accomplished. But as great a man as David Robinson is, the truth of the matter is that the teams he lead were on the losing end of far too many playoff fiascos for me to join the chorus arguing that David should get a free pass in evaluating his competitiveness against that exhibited by his peers.

But (to bring this thread back to its initial point) I do think it says something about Pop that he managed to find or fuel that fire in David, making him the competitor that we finally saw at the end of David's career.

[Tommy Duncan]

You can be a successful individual without loving your profession. That was the central problem with DRob on the court. He had the talent, the discipline, and the work ethic to be a superstar, yet he lacked that desire to tear the heart out of his opponents and show it to them as they lay dying on the court. In competitive sports that is important.

Perhaps sooner or later we can get beyond the 'David is a great man' responses. I haven't seen anyone in this thread dispute that.

[SAmikeyp]

It is important but in Robinson's case it was not a hindrance. He could not accomplish all he did on the court if it was. My point is this, he did love the game, just not as much as his family or faith. You cannot accomplish what he did on the court with a total lack of desire and love for the game.

[From Way Downtown]

I don't think anyone is saying that David was without any love or passion for basketball; but compared to his contemporaries, that love/passion was quite limited. And it's very hard, I think, to argue that his limited love wasn't a hinderance, mikey -- it was a hinderance because, of the dominant players of that 1990-1998 era, Robinson was the only truly "dominant" talent who didn't get his team to at least one Finals. That was true despite the fact that the Spurs rolled up high seeds and very good records during that time -- those teams had a dominating big man and talented role players, but they never got it done, and David's numbers fell off in most of those playoff runs.

As I said before, my quarrel is with those who take David's off-the-court goodness (which I agree nobody disputes) and use that as a basis to excuse him from any role in his team's on-court failures.

[SAmikeyp]

Tommy said here..


he lacked that desire to tear the heart out of his opponents and show it to them as they lay dying on the court

and here...


That's besides the point. David Robinson played basketball because he was good at it and it paid extremely well, not because he loved it.

I disagree about it being a hindrance. David could not have accomplished what he did if it was.

[Solid D]

Excellent thoughts and debate on David Robinson. He never had the lower body structure (heavy trunk/rear-end) of some of the other post players which helps them leverage-wise, but David did the best with what he had. Nobody had a better upper body.

This thread is entitled "Adaptable Popovich is among the NBA's best" but I really think David was adaptability personified. Not just physical and experiencial adjusments, but several attitudinal adjustments on the court over the years. Toward the end of his career, he was trying to show his toughness more. He never completely rid himself of that occasional "aloof" look he would get sometimes, but he definitely had more competitive drive in his later years.

Good to see you come in Admiral. May God bless you and give you strength going through Med School. I know it's tough sometimes.

[From Way Downtown]

Fine, but is David at all responsible, in your mind, for the Spurs' repeated failures in the 1990's, and does his limited love of basketball explain the fact that he rarely was able to elevate his play come playoff time?

[SAmikeyp]

Jordan and Hakeem put up great numbers in the regular season but until they got a decent supporting cast, they did nothing in the playoffs. Same with David. Why then is he viewed differently? Bias. Some fans think that if a player does not eat, sleep and breath their sport, they are in some way deficient. Those fans do it, so they think the players on their teams should too. David proved that you could be a top player in your sport and still keep family and faith as top priority.

David was not solely at fault for the Spurs playoff failures prior to 1999. The playoffs are more intense. David did what he could but other teams focused entirely on David and forced the other Spurs to beat him. They knew David was going to get his. It was up to others to step up and that did not happen.

[Tommy Duncan]

Again, David Robinson did not have the competitive desire that MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, etc exhibited. He did not live and breathe basketball. I don't think anyone believes that if DRob did not have the athletic ability to play in the NBA that he would have been down at the local gym playing pickup games every weekend.

This is not a knock on him as a man, but rather as a NBA superstar. He was that good without the passion for the game and competition that his superstar peers exhibited. Just imagine if he was. Imagine if he devoted the time to developing an unstoppable go-to move or working on his post game throughout his career.

Sure, DRob is popular because of the man he is off the court. But that does not make him immune from criticism. And I think he would be the first to admit that he did not have the same level of desire that MJ or Hakeem had.

Even AJ had more desire and competitive fire than DRob ever had. It's not always an optimal situation when your best player is not your most competitive player. Could you say that about MJ's Bulls? Hakeem's Rockets? Bird's Celtics? Barkley's Suns?

[KoriEllis]

Almost off topic question:

Do you think Tim exhibits the kind of passion, love, desire for the game that you are talking about?

Or does he lack it too?

[From Way Downtown]

Jordan and Hakeem put up great numbers in the regular season but until they got a decent supporting cast, they did nothing in the playoffs. Same with David.

But it's not the same with David -- when Jordan and Hakeem had inferior casts, they were eeking into the playoffs and being overmatched by better basketball teams. With David, by contrast, the Spurs were never worse than 2nd in their division, and never lower than a 5 seed:

1990: 1st in Midwest, #2 seed (eliminated Round 2)
1991: 1st in Midwest, #2 seed (eliminated Round 1)
1992: [Robinson injured, didn't participate in playoffs]
1993: 2nd in Midwest, #5 seed (eliminated Round 2)
1994: 2nd in Midwest, #4 seed (eliminated Round 1)
1995: 1st in Midwest, #1 seed (eliminated WCF)
1996: 1st in Midwest, #2 seed (eliminated Round 2)

David's supporting cast during most of those seasons was good enough to obtain home court advantage and to garner a high seed in the playoffs -- it's much different than the situations that faced Jordan or Hakeem.


Why then is he viewed differently? Bias.

or, perhaps, because the facts show his situation to have been significantly different.


Some fans think that if a player does not eat, sleep and breath their sport, they are in some way deficient. Those fans do it, so they think the players on their teams should too. David proved that you could be a top player in your sport and still keep family and faith as top priority.

Again, I don't dispute that its admirable that David is a wonderful man. But, while David was proving that he could be a top player while keeping his family and faith a priority, his teams, talented enough to get high playoff seeds, were regularly falling short of expectations at playoff time. I guess the question is one of the measure of greatness, but the knock on David for so much of his career was that his gaudy regular season numbers didn't bear out when the pressure of playoff basketball arrived -- which I think is the point that is at issue in this thread.


David was not solely at fault for the Spurs playoff failures prior to 1999.

I never suggested that David was solely at fault. Pages ago, I noted the problems with Dennis Rodman in 1994 and 1995, the disappearances of Vinny Del Negro and Chuck Person in the 1995 WCF, the misread between Rod Strickland and Sean Elliott in 1990. But for all of that, it's hard for me to fathom the argument that some seem to make, that David should bear none of the blame because he's such a great guy. The truth is, that the 1990's were an era of repeated playoff failure for the Spurs, and the one constant during that time was David Robinson. Other than the understandable respect for the man as a human being, I'm really struggling to understand how it's so difficult to acknowledge that David bore some (not total, but some) responsibility for the Spurs' repeated failures.


The playoffs are more intense. David did what he could but other teams focused entirely on David and forced the other Spurs to beat him. They knew David was going to get his. It was up to others to step up and that did not happen.

But that's true of so many other superstars, including Tim Duncan. Yet, those other superstars found ways to either elevate their own play despite the intensity of the playoffs and the added attention paid to them, or found ways to help their teammates step up. Certainly the intensity amps up at playoff time, but that's precisely why this argument is going on: when the intensity went up, David's passion and desire stayed on the regular season plane, and as a result, his game never elevated beyond its regular season level. Great competitors elevate their games by adjusting to the intensity and playing with greater focus and passion. David, from my perspective, always struggled to do that, which is why we're having this discussion.

[From Way Downtown]

Do you think Tim exhibits the kind of passion, love, desire for the game that you are talking about?

Or does he lack it too?

Personally, I think Tim has it. Passion, love, and desire need not be exemplified in words, or by jumping around like a jackass swatting shots after whistles and whatnot. Passion, love, and desire can also be shown by elevating your game when it matters most. It's been really interesting to see Tim Duncan's focus and desire go up when the playoffs roll around and that, in my estimation, is borne out by the almost-annual improvement in his numbers during the post-season. It's particularly evident in his career numbers in the WCF and the NBA Finals. When it matters most, Tim is at his best and that, to me, shows that competitive fire.

[SAmikeyp]

I agree that he did not have as much desire as those players you mentioned, TD and I know you were not criticizing his off the court behavior. I just do not believe that he could have achieved his on the court success and have a total lack of desire or love for the game.

[SAmikeyp]

so then, FWD, do you believe that the playoff failures were solely David's fault?

[Tommy Duncan]

I get the sense that TD is much more the competitor than DRob. That's part of the reason TD's offensive game is much more polished than DRob's ever was. TD will work on new moves, he will work on sharpening the old ones. TD is much more likely to become unhinged or argue a call on the court than DRob.

DRob had the stoic, upright personality on the court and TD had the laid back smooth one but you know TD is much more likely to stare down a ref or go right at someone than DRob.

[SAmikeyp]

Jordan and Hakeem made it to the conference finals as well as sneaking into the playoffs. I know Jordan did...and I am pretty sure Hakeem did.


Remember the good old days when this was a thread about Popovich? :)

[SAmikeyp]

although the rare times DRob went off, like that time in Houston...were funny.

[From Way Downtown]

so then, FWD, do you believe that the playoff failures were solely David's fault?

I'll answer by quoting my earlier answer:


I never suggested that David was solely at fault . . . . Other than the understandable respect for the man as a human being, I'm really struggling to understand how it's so difficult to acknowledge that David bore some (not total, but some) responsibility for the Spurs' repeated failures.

[KoriEllis]

TD will work on new moves, he will work on sharpening the old ones.

Yeah, now if he can just stop that going underneath with his arms and then flailing around looking for a foul move that he goes to every time he gets frustrated.

[Whottt]

FWDt, no I don't think David holds any responsibility for the Spurs playoff failures...

I hold him responsible for getting them to the playoffs in the first place.

The only blame you can put on David Robinson is being good enough to get his team in over it's head.

Drob is like John Elway...Versatile and great enough to get his shit team to a game where it will be embarrassed.

And this is factually provable...

Micheal Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan's teams all have winning records without them, in the prime of their careers...

David Robinson's do not!!!!!!! They aren't even close.

And I'll be back with the numbers to back that claim up in just a bit(on the phone listening to girlfriend vent at the moment)

[KoriEllis]

(on the phone listening to girlfriend vent at the moment)

:lol

I'm glad she has your undivided attention. :)

[Whottt]

LMAO, the first call of the day with her is always the vent call...usually when I am embroiled in the middle of a life or death argument.

And the last call invariably comes in the final, absolutely most crucial minutes of any close basketball, football or baseball game(dare I say, she even seems to know when there is an exciting conclusion to a wrestling match on my TV screen).


I learned a hard lesson about blowing her off at these moments in 02-03 though...Every time I blew her off in 02-03 the Spurs lost the game...every time I gritted my teeth,
turned down the volume and hit the record button while she talked...the Spurs won.

So now I'm superstitious about it and I always take the call no matter how crucial...I just have to learn to live with a little bit higher blood pressure.

[KoriEllis]

It's probably in your best interest to convert her into a sports fan.:spin

[SAmikeyp]

:lol @ Whottt. Good luck bro!

Kori, I agree with you about Duncan. That is a bullshit move and Tim is better than that.

[From Way Downtown]

Micheal Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan's teams all have winning records without them, in the prime of their careers...

It's an interesting way to look at it, and I'll admit that I know you're right on that point, primarily because the Spurs were abysmal during the two long stretches that David missed (the end of 1991-92, (5-9 without David) and most of 1996-97, (17-59)). But I think the number is skewed a bit, only because of that awful 1996-97 season.

Surely, though, you aren't arguing that the Spurs weren't a pretty-much-annual disappointment between 1990 and 1998.

While I don't dispute that David is largely responsible for getting the Spurs into the playoffs during those years -- I just think that his lack of fire caused his game to plateau at playoff time, which hurt the Spurs chances to achieve the expectations that were justifiably placed upon them.

[Tommy Duncan]

There was enough talent on that 1994-95 team to win 62 games and the 1 seed.

[Whottt]

Michael Jordan's first year of retirment the Bulls won 55 games and took the eventual Eastern Champs to 7 games in the semifinals. The same Eastern Champs that took Haeem's NBA Champs to 7 games.

In 90-91 Hakeem missed 26 games with a fractured eyesocket and his team went on the longest winning streak in team history and posted the best record ever in Rockets history to that point.

The very next year Hakeem played in all 82 games and the Rockets missed the playoffs. I give him a pass though...he had to deal with Avery as his PG that year.

[Whottt]

There was enough talent on that 1994-95 team to win 62 games and the 1 seed.

And there was enough talent on the one team that was 2 games better to beat them, to have been the defending champions, with one of the NBA's 50 greatest added....

Fact...

That team won 62 games you are right...Few remember that Dennis Rodman missed 33 games during the regular season that year...

Subtracting that and Drob...you have a core of Vinny, Sean, AJ...

The same core that started out the season 3-15 in 96-97(healthy I might add)...on a team with Dominique Wilkins...and no David Robinson

[Tommy Duncan]

That's not the point. DRob had enough talent around him in the playoffs and he didn't get it done. You win in the playoffs because your superstar rises to the occassion.

[From Way Downtown]

sorry, Tommy beat me to it.

[Whottt]

It's an interesting way to look at it, and I'll admit that I know you're right on that point, primarily because the Spurs were abysmal during the two long stretches that David missed (the end of 1991-92, (5-9 without David) and most of 1996-97, (17-59)). But I think the number is skewed a bit, only because of that awful 1996-97 season.

You can't excuse that 96-97 season like that...How come when MJ retired it didn't result in an awful season? How come when Hakeem got injured it didn't result in an awful season?

It was an awful season because Drob got injured, figure it out...We dumped AJ and Sean with no replacments in 93-94...we still won 57 games...

Because the Admiral busted out with one of the greatest individual seasons in NBA history...



29.8 PPG...No center has averaged more per game since that season.

4.8 APG...Only 2 centers have averaged more assists per game since that season...Brad Miller and Vlade Divac, both last season. And actually only about 8 Centers in history have ever averaged more assists per game for a season than DRob did that year...their names are Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Walton...and the like.

[Whottt]

That's not the point. DRob had enough talent around him in the playoffs and he didn't get it done. You win in the playoffs because your superstar rises to the occassion.

He did not have the talent to win an NBA title around him...ever, not for one single year of his career..other than maybe 89-90.


See I present facts...and you present what you pull from your ass...

Take Drob away from the core of that 62 win team and they were shit...as we saw in 96-97.


You cannot say the same of Jordan's Bulls...

You cannot even say the same of Hakeem's Rockets.

The core groups of both of those champions...were winning fucking teams without their so called passionate SuperStars...

David Robinson's team was not.

How many fucking stats and facts do you need put in front of your face before you acknowledge this?

You guys sound like the guys who used to call John Elway gutless and choking...the guys that used to make jokes about him trying to shoot himself in the head and missing...

Why? Because he was good enough to get his team to games where they were hopeless overmatched...

Like DRob..when Elway got the pieces around him...he won.

[Whottt]

FWDT...it's not just 96-97...

The Spurs never had a winning record in the games Drob missed anytime he missed 2 games or more.

The were 5-9 in 91-92.
They were 1-1 in 93-94.
And they were a ghastly 17-59 without him in 96-97...

Who the **** was on that 96-97 team?

Well let's see...Avery passionate Johnson lead the team in minutes and games played...

Sean Elliot was there...

Vinny D was there.

Oh and Gregg Poppovich was there...

Looks the like Marcus Bryant headjob squad to me.

Take Drob out and they were the worst team in the NBA...even with Dominique Wilkins...

And I'm sure you guys will rate Dominique over Drob in the passion department as well.

[Whottt]

The Spurs without Tim Duncan... in 99-00 they were 5-3 without Duncan.

Last year they were 7-4.

Hakeem's team posted the best record in team history the year he missed the most games.

Jordan's team was probably still the 3rd or 4th best team in the NBA without him..

When Jordan missed 65 games early in his career the Bulls still made the playoffs.

When Jordan retired for a year and a half his teams had winning records without him.

Tim Duncan's teams in his entire career are a total of 12-7 without him...

David Robinson's teams without him are a grand total of 24-69.

There are astronimical differences in those numbers...and when you look at the cores of those teams without their superstars, they are very close to the cores that won titles with them.

David Robinson's team was the worst team in Spur history without him...with a similar basic core.

There is a huge disparity there and anyone who doesn't see it...is not looking at things objectively.

[Admiral]

As the superstar and leader of the Spurs, I have no problem holding DRob responsible for the Spurs' successes and failures during David's career. It's only fair to hold David responsible for the meltdown in Houston in the 1995 WCF's, just as we credit him for being responsible for the 35-win improvement during his rookie season. I hold him partially responsible, but not directly responsible. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the man he is and was.

I have a problem with some of the logic being used here. In one sentence, someone says that DRob had enough talent around him to win a title, and then blames David totally for the loses with no further mention of the supporting cast. My question to you is this: how did the guys who made up David's supporting casts perform during our playoff disappointments? What are their dropoffs in production? My prediction is that it was a huge dropoff. Yes, David had some notable playoff failures, but the supporting cast's inability to even keep their games at a consistent level in the playoffs is most likely the cause of the Spurs' demise. Players who were counted on during the season could not be counted on during the playoffs.

I don't have time to look it up, but I would love to see regular season numbers versus playoff numbers for DRob's supporting cast - the one that was supposedly good enough to help the Spurs win a title. Let's see comparisons for Elliott, AJ, Del Negro, etc. I bet you will see a huge dropoff, and you will not see such an aberration for role players like Cassell, Horry, Drexler, Pippen, Horace Grant, etc. Rather, you will see an increase in their numbers. If anyone has time to do a little research and report back to us, that would be great. I look forward to seeing the results.

Edit: Pippen should not be considered a role player, nor should Drexler. They were stars, something DRob never really had unless you want to be generous and include Elliott. But that's fodder for another post.

[SAmikeyp]

Well said, 5-0.

What is boils down to is this. Its a team game. To have success, you have to have it as a team. More than once has it been proven that one guy cannot do it all. Some of the blame does go to David but there is plenty to go around.

[Tommy Duncan]

This is basketball not football or baseball. One superstar can dominate a game and be the focal point of a team. If you remove him then the structure of the team changes and it's an entirely different team.

DRob was not consumed by the game. Just like if he had ended up as an engineer he'd probably work hard at it and do a good job but he would treat it as a duty and not a love.

[SAmikeyp]

Can a superstar win a game? yes, win a championship, no. not by himself anymore.

[Tommy Duncan]

Hakeem did it. If not him then it would have been Ewing.

[Whottt]

Yeah, Hakeem did it all by himself...

Sam Cassell - who beat AJ's career best scoring game, off the bench, in game 6 VS the Spurs.
Otis Thorpe
Clyde Drexler

Mario Elie
Robert Horry

Hell Horry and Elie have more rings than Hakeem does...Horry has more rings than any SuperStar he played with...

David Robinson had Sean Elliot...who missed the game winning and tying FT's in game 1....

Hakeem had Robert Horry...who hit the game winning shot(and would go on to hit quite a few others) in that same game.

[Whottt]

Admiral, I agree with 90% of what you said but I disagree just a bit on what the role players statistics should be...

On a team with a dominant bigman... If the role players are doing their jobs, it's not their statistics that will show a marked increase, it will be the dominant bigmans.

Is it a coincidence that David's greatest season was followed with by far his most disappointing post season performance?

And no, I'm not talking about 94-95...

I'm talking about 93-94 when David Robinson produced one of the greatest individual seasons ever...There was no AJ on that team, no Sean...The PG rotation consisted of Vinny Del Negro, Willie Anderson and a Sleepy Floyd on his very last lets.

David led the team in assists, ppg, mins, steals, blocks,...basically every category except rebounding which Rodman lead...

He lead the league in scoring...4th Quad double in NBA history...A Spur Team that won 57 games with even less of a starting PG than usual...

And when they hit the playoffs they got destroyed by the Utah Jazz...David shot 411% against the Jazz..his worst showing ever...is it any coincidence that that happened in a season in which his team was realiant on him to do everything? No, the Jazz simply gangraped him in the post...and I don't mean double teamed him...I mean they had 5 guys on him, fouling him. I was there in person and saw it.


When David had the supporting cast..particularly the guards...his post season numbers were exponentially better, this was when he was much younger. I don't think he became less motivated or softer as he got older...inspite of the decline in his post season numbers.

So rather than doing alot of research on teamates of HOF centers or even other players...it can be done much easier...just find another HOF center of the modern era that had to try to win a title with a starting PG with such a limited perimeter game that he made only 1 post season 3 pointer in his entire career...there isn't one, other than David.

[Tommy Duncan]

Drexler wasn't with the Rockets in 1994.

And it's not like DRob didn't have any name teammates of his own to play with pre-1997.

Elliott
Cummings
Strickland
Ellis
Rodman
Person
WAnderson

For example.

Again, the man had enough talent surrounding him to put up a 62 win season in 1994-95 and win the 1 seed. Prior to that the Spurs had enough talent to win division titles and get solid playoff seeding. Remember the 1993 playoffs when Barkley's Suns knocked the Spurs out? Did the Spurs really not have enough talent on that team?

Stop pretending like he was all by himself.

Anyways, he clearly didn't have the passion for the game that other greats did. As you can see most non-Spur basketball fans agree with that assessment, as well as some of us Spurs fans who don't take a criticism of DRob's game as an attack on David Robinson the man.

[Whottt]

Again, the man had enough talent surrounding him to put up a 62 win season in 1994-95 and win the 1 seed.

But not enough to beat the defending champions...and not because of Drob. The coaching wasn't very good in that series(unless you think Bob Hill should still be the coach and Pop god was mistaken to fire him).



Prior to that the Spurs had enough talent to win division titles and get solid playoff seeding.

Because of David Robinson, without him, they were not a playoff team...unlike Jordan's Bulls and Hakeem's Rockets.



Remember the 1993 playoffs when Barkley's Suns knocked the Spurs out? Did the Spurs really not have enough talent on that team?

I'd say no...Remember the previous year when the Barkleyless Suns destroyed the Robinsonless Spurs as the road team? Those Spurs having Strickland, Cummings, and Elliot (otherwise known as David's help) on them...



Stop pretending like he was all by himself.

Stop pretending like those were playoff teams, or even close to it, without David Robinson, when they weren't. Unlike the Bulls and Rockets...and our modern Spurs.


Anyways, he clearly didn't have the passion for the game that other greats did.

Clearly your head is up your ass because you haven't even come close to justifying that claim.



As you can see most non-Spur basketball fans agree with that assessment,

I'd hazzard a guess that most non-SpurFans saw 2-3 games a year of the Spurs back then. Far less than I, who was a season ticket holder.


as well as some of us Spurs fans who don't take a criticism of DRob's game as an attack on David Robinson the man.

You're much like an American hating liberal who hates his own in attempt to be liked by others that hate us...


In this case I feel you cling to these false beliefs in an effort to justify yourself as some type of unbiased fan...In doing so you embrace a very real and unjustified Anti Drob bias..

I mean you automatically assume that because someone is a non SpurFan they more objective on the subject...Well I'd say what most of them do is parrot media takes from DRob's career, made by those who didn't watch him play that often, and lived in cities that were direct competitors of the Spurs...

[Nikos]

Stop pretending like those were playoff teams, or even close to it, without David Robinson, when they weren't. Unlike the Bulls and Rockets...and our modern Spurs.

The Bulls were certainly a very good team without MJ. At least in the first season when they had Scottie, HoG, BJ, and Kukoc. The Next season they were only a few games above .500 when MJ came back for the last 17 games, and they finished 47-35. But they didn't have a big man that season.

The Rockets were not a playoff team without Hakeem. They might have went on a great streak without him, but if they had to play an entire season without Hakeem -- they wouldn't be a very good team -- at least by the 1993-94 season and seasons before that.

Drob's best support was in 1994-95 when he had Dennis Rodman and Sean Elliot. Perhaps that was the defining moment where he would be seperated just below Hakeem in the list of great all time centers and overall players in NBA history.

If their is ever a season to fault Drob, it was probably that one. But then again, Hakeem did have Drexler. Even though strangely enough, the Rockets just weren't that good for much of that season with or without Hakeem, until playoff time.

Tough argument here, especially considering there were seasons where Hakeem underachived greatly, and also times when Drob and Hakeem had hardly any support in comparison with a Michael Jordan having a Scottie Pippen, likewise with Shaq having Kobe and Penny.....

[ducks]

did mj win without any help:Q

[Whottt]

Let's see...who do I take...

Sam Cassell, Kenny Smith, Clyde Drexler, Mario Elie and Vernon Maxwell...

or Vinny Del Negro, Avery Johnson, Doc Rivers and a decrepit Willie Anderson

Ya...there's a lot to think about there....I give it about 5 seconds thinking I would probably keep Doc Rivers over Mad Max...and then I am done thinking about which was the better set of guards there. Hell subtract Clyde Drexler from that list and I still don't have to think about it for longer than 5 seconds.

It's stupid to even consider it longer than 5 seconds.


Then you look at Elliot VS Horry...Well I love Elliot and he played hard during the regular season...much harder than Horry ever did...

But Elliot was the one who missed 2 FT's in game 1 and Horry was the one who hit the game winner.

A very tough choice...but the highlight of Elliot's career was an annual event with Horry and his 5 rings.

And I guess the Rockets and Spurs answer that question for us...We tried to trade Elliot for Horry and the Rockets said no thanks.

So that leaves Rodman was Chucky Brown...well I probably go with Rodman there...unfortunately he wasn't used as a defender on the top post player against the Rockets...so if you think about that then what good was he? Certainly not a big help for his offense...

Especially since his screwing around caused him to miss 1 game of that series.

There is absolutely no doubt who had the superior team in that matchup.


Nikos...that regular season performance of the 94-95 Rockets was typical of Hakeem teams...no matter if he was surrounded by HOF'ers like Barkley, Pippen and Drexler or not...

His teams always underachieved in the regular season and breaking 50 wins was huge deal for a Hakeem Olajuwon team...it was a huge deal if a David Robinson team didn't...

Hakeem only won more than 50 games 5 times in an 18 year career....one of those times Hakeem missed a third of the season.

David Robinson teams won 50 games 10 times in a 14 year career...there was one time they fell short due to a late season injury to David..And of course when David missed a ton of games his team won Tim Duncan....not a playoff series, like Jordan's team.

So again I ask...where was Hakeem's passion? He must have been saving it for the playoffs. : puke

[Nikos]

So again I ask...where was Hakeem's passion? He must have been saving it for the playoffs. :p uke

His passion was demonstrated in 1993-95. Heck his team was good in 1992-93, but they also underacheived a bit and lost to the Sonics (who they probably could have beaten that season).

But yes, Hakeem did underachieve in a few seasons as well.

Only reason he ever gets more respect than Drob is simply because of the 9495 playoffs, where he played exceptional basketball and beat Drob's team. Yes he wasn't all alone, but Hakeem was playing legendary basketball when it counted most. He had help, but Drob had his best support that season as well. Rodman and Elliot is pretty good 3-4 combo to have. It sucks that Elliot didn't step up a bit more, but its hard to predict what would have happened if Spurs support was a little more clutch. But either way, you have to give Hakeem the slight nod in that series regardless. Doesn't mean Hakeem had a better regular season career than Drob (he didn't), but he deserves the slight credit over Drob for beating him without Homecourt, as the teams leader. He played incredible ball all throughout that 95 playoffs.

Also in 1994 he won the title without a second banana, something Drob had the opportunity to do as well in 1993-94. However I would say Hakeem had the better support even then, but not by a huge margin.

Drob was a little more unlucky, but his regular season dominance was as good if not better than Shaq or Hakeem's.

Overall, these three Centers are all very close. But Hakeem actually did beat Drob. Drob and Shaq never met in their primes in a playoff series (although many expected the Spurs and Magic to meet in the 95 finals, I know I did). So, its tough to give the edge to either, considering Shaq could only win titles with Kobe.

[Whottt]

All I know is that Hakeem beat David a total of 12 times in his career...16 if you include that series...They played in the same division for 12 years...and they played each other in 13 of those years...

Yet Hakeem won 1/3rd of the time he faced David Robinson...he averaged less than 1 win per year when they ususally met 4 times per season.

That one year when Hakeem was a 10 year veteran and David was having his first big playoffs...is not a fair judge and it never will be to me...unless of course people are also going to rate Hakeem over Shaq...

I really don't have a problem with people rating Hakeem over David...Hakeem beat every great center of his era in the post season, in a dominant performance....I have a problem with people saying David was the reason his teams didn't win...when he was the only reason they were in the playoffs in the first place.

I can easily see Jordan and Hakeem's teams making the post season(if not winning it all) without them...I can never see that with any of Drob's teams...and the small sampling of numbers we have to look at in the case of these superstars, of their teams performances without them, bears that theory out.

[Whottt]

And you know Marcus Bryant mentioned Charles Barkley and the Suns win over Drob..


Well that Suns team was a playoff team without Charles Barkley...in fact a few years before that team knocked off the defending WC Champion Lakers in the playoffs...

Yet the Sixers who traded Barkley to the Suns failed to make the playoffs with Barkley the previous season.

So that's another case of dropping a SuperStar onto what would be a playoff team without him and that SuperStar nearly winning a title...or winning a title...

The only similar indicators we have like that with David Robinson are teams being lottery teams without him...twice his addition to a team ended up with the biggest single season turnaround in NBA history.

The evidence clearly shows that David Robinson did more with less than any player in NBA history...including Jordan, Kareem Hakeem, Wilt and anyone else you want to name.

[Nikos]

I can easily see Jordan and Hakeem's teams making the post season(if not winning it all) without them...I can never see that with any of Drob's teams...and the small sampling of numbers we have to look at in the case of these superstars, of their teams performances without them, bears that theory out.

Granted the Bulls were contenders without MJ.

But do you honestly think Houston had even the slightest chance at the title without Hakeem? Thats crazy.

[Whottt]

Of winning a title? No. I don't think they had a snowballs chance in hell of winning a title without Hakeem.

I do think they could have been a playoff team without him.

Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, Matt Bullard, Vernon Maxwell...were all on that 90-91 team that was the best team in Rockets history to that point, in terms of W-L...and most of it happened after Hakeem was injured...

Add Mario Elie, Robert Horry and Sam Cassell to that mix? Easy playoff team.

Otis Thorpe was an All Star you know, a former 20 and 10 player......And Sam Cassell killed us in game 6 the following year. Cassell's pretty good under pressure...just ask Garnett and his MVP award. We already know what Mario Elie did for our own franchise as far as teaching us how to win.

[Nikos]

Thorpe was solid, but I think they played a little over their heards in those 26 games Hakeem was out.

Give that team 3-4 seasons without Hakeem, and they don't start making the playoffs until they get Cassell, Elie, Horry. Even then they would just squeak in at best.

Somewhere between a 30-40 win team without Hakeem, but the 40 wins is being nice.

They had some great defensive role players, who could hit threes (clutch ones at that).

But without Hakeem, those clutch three point opportunities don't even present themselves.

My guess is they would be something like 34-48 without Hakeem, maybe worse (from 1990-1993).

Keep in mind there were a few seasons Hakeem did play, did do well, and they still barely got in the playoffs. Took a while before the Rockets made their pieces fit (Thorpe, Max, Smith), followed by Elie, Horry, and Cassell.

A team filled with good role players, but no all star's alongside Hakeem by the time they were ready to compete for the title. Thorpe was borderline in those times, Maxwell was inconsistent, Smith was basically a short SG, and Horry and Cassell were still young.

[Whottt]

Insteresting stuff...Worst teams the following HOF'ers played on(player must have played in at least 75 games and been healthy for the playoffs)

The worst record for a Charles Barkley team: 35-47.

1991-92 Sixers. No playoffs, with Barkley playing in 75 games.


Worst record for a Jordan team(Other than old Jordan): 38-44.

1984-85 Bulls. 1-3 First round exit with Jordan playing in all 82 games.

Or how about the team that had both Michael Jordan and George Gervin on it that got it's ass kicked out of the playoffs in the first round? Swept.

Worst record for a Hakeem Olajuwon team: 41-41.

1989-90 Rockets. 1-3 First Round Exit. Hakeem played in all 82 games.

Worst record for a Shaq O'Neal team: 41-41.

1992-93 Magic. No playoffs. Shaq played in 81 games.

Worst record for a Wilt Chamberlain team: 31-49.

1962-63 SF Warriors. No playoffs. Wilt playing in 80 games.

Worst record for Kareem Adbul Jabbar team: 40-42.

1975-76 LA Lakers. No playoffs. Kareem played in all 82 games.

Worst record for a Karl Malone team: 42-40.

1985-86 Jazz. 1-3 first round exit. Malone played in 81 games(and with John Stockton and Adrian Dantley).

Now we go for the biggies...

Worst record for a Bill I wiped my ass with Hall of Famers Russell team: 48-34.

1968-69 Celtics. NBA Champs. Russell played in 77 games.

Worst record for a Larry Bird team: 52-30.

89-90 Celtics. Second round exit. Bird played in 75 games.

Worst record for a Magic Johnson team: 57-25.

1988-89 Lakers. Lost in finals to Pistons. Magic played in 79 games(and was injured IIRC).


and now..

Worst team of David Robinson: 49-23.

92-93 Spurs. Lost in the second round. Robinson played in all 82 games.

This was the year the Spurs let Strickland walk, that TC destroyed his knee and career in a pick up game...the year Willie Anderson developed shin problems.

Do not tell me that this was a good team. This team had 3 rookie coaches in 1 year, it had career altering injuries to it's two best players other than Robinson and it let it's starting PG walk to replace him with one with no perimeter shot.


Yet in all of that...the only people that ever had a better sustained level of succes through thick and thin...are Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Bill Russell(and DR J in his NBA career
)...And by the way...this goes for just about all players in a span of 10 years.

The difference between those guys and Robinson?

They played for the NBA's most historic franchises...Drob played for an ABA refugee in the NBA's smallest market.


The multiple HOF'ers they were surrounded with for virtually their entire careers.

Russell never had less than 3 and Johnson and Bird both had at least two for nearly every other year of their careers.

I assure you...there were no other HOF'ers on that 92-93 Spurs team.

There is everything to indicate that Drob carried teams among the best, if not the best, of any player in NBA history. 5 IBM awards seem to agree with this fact.

Passionate..or not.

[Whottt]

I'm sorry but acting like first(Manu Ginobili) and second(Tony Parker, essentially Stephen Jackson) year players are a liability is not going to go very far with me.

Bottom line, take Hakeem and Jordan off their teams, they won.

Take Drob off of his team and it lost badly.

The 94-95 team was essentially the same team that won a title in 98-99.

Subtract Rodman,, Person, and Del Negro and add Elie, Duncan and JJ.

What you have there are two teams one that was a finalist and one that was a WCF that lost to the eventual champs 4-2...

Take Drob out of that mix and replace him with Dominique Wilkins, before adding Duncan and it was the worst Spur team in history.

The only team in NBA history to become an NBA champ without having someone who either was, or will be an All Star guard.

[IcemanCometh]

Or how about the team that had both Michael Jordan and George Gervin on it that got it's ass kicked out of the playoffs in the first round? Swept.

you mean the one that jordan missed almost the entire year after breaking his foot, then came back and scored 63 pts on one of the best teams of all time the 85 celtics in the playoffs. that team?

[Whottt]

Yup. Obviously he didn't have enough passion to win or else he would have won.

[IcemanCometh]

David Robinson the perfect basketball player, never a bad word to be said about him.


unless one is to compare him to the coyote

[Whottt]

And seriouly Ice, as bigoted as you are about white guys I wouldn't think you would make such a big deal about Jordan scoring 63...I mean he was being guarded by a white guy.

[From Way Downtown]

All I know is that Hakeem beat David a total of 12 times in his career...16 if you include that series...They played in the same division for 12 years...and they played each other in 13 of those years...Yet Hakeem won 1/3rd of the time he faced David Robinson...he averaged less than 1 win per year when they ususally met 4 times per season.

This, to me, is one of the more interesting thoughts in this thread: after a series of posts claiming that Hakeem's supporting cast was substantially better than Robinson's, you post fairly conclusive evidence to say that the Spurs teams were much, much better than the Rockets' teams during the Olajuwon-Robinson era. You can't have it both ways, Whottt -- you can't say that Hakeem's teams were better overall, and then point to evidence that shows that to be untrue.

You've also omitted some fairly substantial history in making a few of your points. The bulk of your proof as to the Spurs being far worse without David is their record during 1996-97 (a disproportionate number of Robinson-less games come from that season). You point to the demise of the Spurs in 1996-97 as being solely attributable to David Robinson's injury, but you might remember that the Spurs were only 3-3 with Robinson that year (again, your overall number for 1996-97 is way wrong -- the Spurs were actually 17-59 without Robinson in 1996-97).

But you might also remember that a big chunk of the team's intended rotation missed the majority of the season. Sean Elliott (who was coming off an all-star season in 1995-96) played in only 39 games in 1996-97, and none after February 5 (the Spurs were 9-34 in the games Elliott missed); Chuck Person didn't play in any games; Charles Smith played in only 19 games (and was terrible when he played); Vinny Del Negro missed 10 games and Avery Johnson missed 6 games. Adding in David's 76 absences, the Spurs were without 6 of the players intended to be in their top 9 for a total of 280 aggregate games.

While David's injury was certainly a significant factor in that season, it's not as if the Spurs suffered from that alone, and trying to argue that the 1996-97 Spurs were representative of the Spurs between 1989-90 and 1995-96 is ludicrous: for crissakes, Carl Herrera started 58 times for that team; Greg Anderson started 48 games; even Monty Williams (26 starts) and Vernon Maxwell (31 starts) saw substantial time. And, though you might try to suggest otherwise, not all of them got time just because David Robinson was injured!!