Now The Knicks Think Bruce Bowen Is a Dirty Player

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Francis hurt, mates
irked at Bowen

Steve Francis did not play in the second half of last night's loss to the Spurs after spraining his ankle. Some Knicks felt it was caused by Francis being undercut by Bruce Bowen.
Bowen, one the league's best defensive players, has been accused by Vince Carter and Ray Allen of not giving them enough room to land when they shoot jump shots.

Francis, who was injured in the first quarter and returned shortly after that, was not available for comment after the game but several teammates, who did not want to be identified, felt Bowen's play was dirty. X-rays taken at the Garden were negative but it is not known if Francis will be available for tomorrow's game against Denver. Channing Frye also sat in the second half but wasn't hurt. He shot 0-for-5 and is inching closer to losing his starting job.


Frank Isola

[Obstructed_View]

several teammates, who did not want to be identified, felt Bowen's play was dirty.
Yeah, okay.

[MajorMike]

And I think the Knicks is the worst franchise in the NBA, but my opinion means squat, too.

[sa_butta]

Francis hurt, mates
irked at Bowen

Steve Francis did not play in the second half of last night's loss to the Spurs after spraining his ankle. Some Knicks felt it was caused by Francis being undercut by Bruce Bowen.
Bowen, one the league's best defensive players, has been accused by Vince Carter and Ray Allen of not giving them enough room to land when they shoot jump shots.

Francis, who was injured in the first quarter and returned shortly after that, was not available for comment after the game but several teammates, who did not want to be identified, felt Bowen's play was dirty. X-rays taken at the Garden were negative but it is not known if Francis will be available for tomorrow's game against Denver. Channing Frye also sat in the second half but wasn't hurt. He shot 0-for-5 and is inching closer to losing his starting job.


Frank IsolaMaybe he should just give them a nice cushion so they can get an open shot and plenty of room to land.
:cry

[2Cleva]

The Knicks think Bowen is dirty because he uses dirty tricks. No revelation there.

[sandman]

The Knicks think Bowen is dirty because he uses dirty tricks. No revelation there.

And yet none of the other NBA players voiced a protest as to his dirty play when he was a finalist for the US team this summer. :rolleyes

[boutons_]

Bruce doesn't have to put is foot out like that.

The Carter indicient was already arguable.

Bruce doing the same to Franchise piles up the evidence against Bruce.

[MoSpur]

I have to somewhat agree that him putting his foot out like that is kind of dangerous for the shooter.

[JGrice02]

Same thing happened to Josh Howard last night and not one called the Warrior in question a dirty player. This is simply what happens when someone actually puts forth effort on defense. Most guys don't even try to get a hand in the face when they are out of position. Bruce is always hustling, always crowding his man. It should be expected that from time to time a jump shooter will come down on his foot.

[samikeyp]

This coming from that bastion of sportsmanship Steve Francis. :rolleyes

[SenorSpur]

I saw the play and the replay. I immediately thought that Bruce got a bit too far underneath the shooter. It would have been different had Bruce rose up with him and tried to block his shot at the point of release and Francis came down on him.

I don't know whether Bruce's actions were accidental or intentional. Because so many players have been hurt in this fashion, it's hard to believe the number of players getting hurt in this fashion is merely a coincidence.

If this is a "specific trick" in Bowen's tactical arsenal (and I hope that it's not), I hardly see the point in it. Anyone who has played the game and has twisted or turned an ankle knows how painful this can be.

I love Bowen for his skill, defensive effort and professionalism. Therefore, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this. I hope there's not a pattern starting here.

It's a competitive game and everyone's looking for an edge, yet no one wants to see anyone get hurt - accidental or on purpose.

[Kori Ellis]

If this is a "specific trick" in Bowen's tactical arsenal (and I hope that it's not), I hardly see the point in it.

The point of it would be so that the shooter is worried about where he is landing rather than concentrating on his shot.

I'm not saying Bruce is intentionally doing that. I'm just saying that would be the obvious point if it was intentional.

[Obstructed_View]

The same season that Bowen supposedly did that to Carter on purpose, someone (I wish I could remember who) did exactly the same thing onto Carter's foot and was out for the season. Nobody even gave it a second mention or questioned Carter's intentions. All the doubts I had about Bowen went away at that moment.

This happens ALL THE TIME people. Nobody bothers to mention it when it happens to anyone else.

[Phenomanul]

The same season that Bowen supposedly did that to Carter on purpose, someone (I wish I could remember who) did exactly the same thing onto Carter's foot and was out for the season. Nobody even gave it a second mention or questioned Carter's intentions. All the doubts I had about Bowen went away at that moment.

This happens ALL THE TIME people. Nobody bothers to mention it when it happens to anyone else.


Besides Carter has lately been kicking his feet out trying to kick Bruce in the process.... and yet no one even bothers to question his intentions.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

With Bowen guarding the team's best perimeter player every night for the last three or four years if he was really dirty there would be more incidents than this. How many jump shots from Dirk, Finley, Kobe, et al has he defended without killing anyone?

The replay showed that Ray Allen messed up his ankle on his own. I didn't actually see VC's injury but given his ease of injury I'm inclined to believe that he was just being a little bitch. On all of that, I'd say this is just an accident.

[PM5K]

I don't think it's intentional, that's just what happens when you play the kind of relentless defense he plays. There are a lot of players that give up once they are beaten, but Bruce is the type of player that will try to get a hand in your face or block your shot if he is in front of you, beside you, or behind you...

[bdictjames]

Yeah.. a dirty player by the rules. Blame David Stern for that and make him create like a "no foot sticking out" rule or something like that lol

[sprrs]

The same season that Bowen supposedly did that to Carter on purpose, someone (I wish I could remember who) did exactly the same thing onto Carter's foot and was out for the season. Nobody even gave it a second mention or questioned Carter's intentions. All the doubts I had about Bowen went away at that moment.

This happens ALL THE TIME people. Nobody bothers to mention it when it happens to anyone else.

That's a credit to Bruce's defense more than anything else.

[Obstructed_View]

That's a credit to Bruce's defense more than anything else.
It has to be. Bowen guards the league's biggest draws every game; the very high profile superstars the league relies on for revenue and ticket sales. If there were any evidence that he was intentionally hurting ANYONE they'd drum his ass out of the league without a proper hearing in a New York minute.

[whottt]

IF anyone goes back to rewatch the game...take a look at what Francis does when he comes back into the game...

He sticks his foot under Manu's feet when Manu is shooting a 3.

Players do this all the time...guys sprain ankles from landing on the feet of others all the time.

The reason Bruce gets called out for it and no one else does is because Bruce punks and irritates them defensively in so many ways they are looking for an excuse to get on him. Bruce doesn't even look after the play...he looks to the basket.

Just go back and watch...Francis does it to Manu on the next defensive posession he is in the game.

[ALVAREZ6]

Just go back and watch...Francis does it to Manu on the next defensive posession he is in the game.
He probably did it in retaliation, as if to mock/imitate Bruce.

[whottt]

He probably did it in retaliation, as if to mock/imitate Bruce.


Well I agree it is unusual to see Francis play D...but he's not doing anything intentional...he's not even looking.

[lefty]

Bowen didn't do it on purpose

[veronicamae]

how many times do we need to have this debate? i mean really.

[Ballcox]

The Knicks just need some kind of excuse for losing again........if they want to target Bruce, fine. That doesn't change the fact that they are really a bad team from top to bottom.

[JamStone]

It's really quite simple. Most Spurs fans don't think Bruce is dirty because he's a Spur and he's a Spurs who works hard and has helped the team win championships. If Bruce is on another team doing the same things he does to Spurs players, most Spurs fans would think he's dirty. It's the way of fanaticism. And, it's completely understandable.

Bruce has been called dirty by many players in the league. He absolutely bends the rules. But, as been mentioned, a lot of players do. Is Bruce trying to hurt players? Probably not. But, is he using every advantage possible with little concern that his methods might result in someone getting injured? Probably. Does that make him dirty? It depends what you think is dirty.

I don't think Bruce wants to hurt other players. But, I don't think NOT hurting another player is a top priority, especially a priority over getting his job done. If it's a consequence to what Bruce does, I think he'll live with playing that way.

I don't think Bruce is dirty in that he wants players he defends to get injured. But, I do think many things that he does could be classified as dirty. But, again, he's far from the only player in the league that does it.

[Bruno]

Video of Francis' injury : (it's from nba.com)

http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/nba/nbacom/news/francis_injury_061106.asx

[Bruno]

http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1162879759205640.xml&coll=1


"I can honestly say I don't think he's a dirty player," said Malik Rose, Bowen's former teammate in San Antonio. "But that stuff happens a lot and he's the common denominator. But he works so hard on defense. When I played with him I thought those guys were all just crybabies. But being on the other end of it now, I don't know. But I still won't say he's a dirty player."

[mrose31]

It's really quite simple. Most Spurs fans don't think Bruce is dirty because he's a Spur and he's a Spurs who works hard and has helped the team win championships. If Bruce is on another team doing the same things he does to Spurs players, most Spurs fans would think he's dirty. It's the way of fanaticism. And, it's completely understandable.

Bruce has been called dirty by many players in the league. He absolutely bends the rules. But, as been mentioned, a lot of players do. Is Bruce trying to hurt players? Probably not. But, is he using every advantage possible with little concern that his methods might result in someone getting injured? Probably. Does that make him dirty? It depends what you think is dirty.

I don't think Bruce wants to hurt other players. But, I don't think NOT hurting another player is a top priority, especially a priority over getting his job done. If it's a consequence to what Bruce does, I think he'll live with playing that way.

I don't think Bruce is dirty in that he wants players he defends to get injured. But, I do think many things that he does could be classified as dirty. But, again, he's far from the only player in the league that does it.

I think Bowen is a dirty player to a degree that he is trying to mess other players game. I think he intentionally bumps, pushes, elbows,and ocassionally steps on other players to get in their heads and make them lose concentration. But I don't think he would stoop so low as to intentionally put his foot under other players to twist opponent players anlkles. If he did why would he want to even do that to a terrible team like the Knicks. They are not a threat.

[ShoogarBear]

It's really quite simple. Most Spurs fans don't think Bruce is dirty because he's a Spur and he's a Spurs who works hard and has helped the team win championships. If Bruce is on another team doing the same things he does to Spurs players, most Spurs fans would think he's dirty. It's the way of fanaticism. And, it's completely understandable.

Bruce has been called dirty by many players in the league. He absolutely bends the rules. But, as been mentioned, a lot of players do. Is Bruce trying to hurt players? Probably not. But, is he using every advantage possible with little concern that his methods might result in someone getting injured? Probably. Does that make him dirty? It depends what you think is dirty.

I don't think Bruce wants to hurt other players. But, I don't think NOT hurting another player is a top priority, especially a priority over getting his job done. If it's a consequence to what Bruce does, I think he'll live with playing that way.

I don't think Bruce is dirty in that he wants players he defends to get injured. But, I do think many things that he does could be classified as dirty. But, again, he's far from the only player in the league that does it.All true. Spur fans would be going apeshit if Bowen played for the Mavs or the Lakers.

Bruce is my favorite Spur. But you have to look at what he does objectively.

[sandman]

All true. Spur fans would be going apeshit if Bowen played for the Mavs or the Lakers.

Bruce is my favorite Spur. But you have to look at what he does objectively.

The bottom line with Bruce is that if he is on your team, he is the DPOY. If he is on the other team, then he is dirty. It doesn't matter what team he plays for, that will always be the situation.

[mrose31]

All true. Spur fans would be going apeshit if Bowen played for the Mavs or the Lakers.

Bruce is my favorite Spur. But you have to look at what he does objectively.

After watching that clip of the incident I am not sure what to think. Its not like he was looking down to do it intentionally but he does open his legs wide apart when he lands. I can see it going either way if your a spurs fan you say its unintentional if your opposing team you could say it was done on purpose.

[PM5K]

God some of you peopole are stupid, maybe one day you'll be able to differentiate between dirty and physical, but I won't hold my breath...

[2Cleva]

Physical is fine when its chest to chest, body to body, etc...

When you be "physical" with a player when he can't protect himself - that's the definition of dirty or a cheap shot.

[hitmanyr2k]

Bowen is dirty man. Some Spurs fans can stay blind to it all they want but the fact is he's been using that stick-the-foot-under-the-jumpshooter schtick for a long time now. When I saw it last night I knew it was intentional and I knew someone was going to bring it up today. He stuck that foot out a lot further than he had to...as usual. Yeah, he's a hard worker and a good defender blah blah blah but he's a dirty MF and it's hard to appreciate him as a good defender when he's doing stupid shit like that.

[Kori Ellis]

A lot of Bowen's defense starts with his feet. Everyone knows that. But if you look at the tape of any NBA game, you'll find several instances of what Bowen "did" to Francis. Just like was mentioned in this thread earlier, Francis did it to Manu in the same game.

Bowen is crafty as hell. "Dirty" just depends on your definitition of dirty. To me, dirty is throwing elbows, undercutting players while they are in the air, etc.

Dirty players, to me, are guys like Karl Malone, Danny Fortson, Juwan Howard, etc.

Then there's a line of crafty, hard-nosed, tricky players that includes Bowen, Artest (except in his moments of psychotic behavior), etc.

Bowen will always be accused of stuff by some players because he rattles them.

Ray Allen accused Bowen of repeatedly "punching him in the stomach" during a game. Now if Ray Allen, All-Star/Superstar that he is, was actually getting repeatedly punched in the stomach in a game, the league would do something about it.

[lefty]

It's really quite simple. Most Spurs fans don't think Bruce is dirty because he's a Spur and he's a Spurs who works hard and has helped the team win championships. If Bruce is on another team doing the same things he does to Spurs players, most Spurs fans would think he's dirty. It's the way of fanaticism. And, it's completely understandable.

Bruce has been called dirty by many players in the league. He absolutely bends the rules. But, as been mentioned, a lot of players do. Is Bruce trying to hurt players? Probably not. But, is he using every advantage possible with little concern that his methods might result in someone getting injured? Probably. Does that make him dirty? It depends what you think is dirty.

I don't think Bruce wants to hurt other players. But, I don't think NOT hurting another player is a top priority, especially a priority over getting his job done. If it's a consequence to what Bruce does, I think he'll live with playing that way.

I don't think Bruce is dirty in that he wants players he defends to get injured. But, I do think many things that he does could be classified as dirty. But, again, he's far from the only player in the league that does it.

Hey, I remember Pistons fans yelling their players were not dirty in 89-90

[tlongII]

Bowen is a dirty player. Everybody in the league knows that.

[whottt]

After looking at that video...

What is Bruce supposed to do? Put both of his feet together so he lands on his face?

And let's say Bruce is dirty and does that on purpose...why would he do it against the Knicks and Francis?

The Spurs have flat out owned Francis...Tony Parker shuts his butt down and has since he was 20...

Why would Bruce do it against a lottery team, so early in the game, against a player that historically plays lousy against the Spurs?

That'd be a move you save for when it's most needed.

[samikeyp]

It's really quite simple. Most Spurs fans don't think Bruce is dirty because he's a Spur and he's a Spurs who works hard and has helped the team win championships. If Bruce is on another team doing the same things he does to Spurs players, most Spurs fans would think he's dirty. It's the way of fanaticism. And, it's completely understandable.

So if I don't think he is dirty, its because I am not capable of believing so?

[mavs>spurs2]

Intentionally putting your foot under another player while they're in the air so that they have nowhere to land is bullshit. He should be suspended and given and intentional foul. That kind of dirty shit is what gets players hurt.

[samikeyp]

Intentionally putting your foot under another player while they're in the air so that they have nowhere to land is bullshit. He should be suspended and given and intentional foul. That kind of dirty shit is what gets players hurt

just Bowen or all players who do that? Despite rumors to the contrary, Bowen isn't the only one.

also...how do you prove its intentional every time a player does it?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I really don't blame the Knicks for feeling like that at all

The replays looked bad in Bowen's case although i don't think he did it on purpose

But his legs were really far out in front of him when he tried blocking that shot

It definitely looks sketchy

[The Truth #6]

You can play hard defense and be dirty. The two don't negate each other. I can't think of any other player in the league who has this long of a history of pushing the envelope. I'm basically cool with what he does because he's a Spur but I'd probably hate him if he was with the Mavs. I'm glad he's on our side. He's helped get us rings.

[Obstructed_View]

Intentionally putting your foot under another player while they're in the air so that they have nowhere to land is bullshit. He should be suspended and given and intentional foul. That kind of dirty shit is what gets players hurt.
Once again, a Maverick fan thinks it's a foul when a guy lands on your foot. If Bowen's foot is there, that means he was in position and it's the shooter's responsibility NOT to land there. If Bowen is supposed to be able to react so quickly that he can predict where a guy is going to land and get his foot to that exact spot while not even looking, how is it possible to believe that a shooter is incapable of simply moving his feet to another spot as he's coming down?

I'm starting to wonder if guys are trying to draw a foul on the shot and are just politicking for it. I'll give fans who never played basketball some benefit of the doubt, but there's no way any of these players are that stupid.

[sandman]

If Stern doesn't make a "Bowen Rule" when players like Dirk, Vince and Ray Allen complain, what makes anyone think that there will ever be a rule against whatever it is that he does? Maybe whatever it is that he does is a bit more common in the L than the Bruce haters care to admit.

Until the Commish starts dropping fines and suspensions on him, the L approves of his style of play.

[Kori Ellis]

If Bowen's foot is there, that means he was in position and it's the shooter's responsibility NOT to land there. If Bowen is supposed to be able to react so quickly that he can predict where a guy is going to land and get his foot to that exact spot while not even looking, how is it possible to believe that a shooter is incapable of simply moving his feet to another spot as he's coming down?

This how I have always thought of it. Even if Bowen is intentionally trying to get in their way. There's no way that he finds the exact place they are coming down every time without even looking.

If the shooters don't like it, they should adjust their landings :drunk

[kris]

Looked dirty to me and I like Bowen.

[2Cleva]

This how I have always thought of it. Even if Bowen is intentionally trying to get in their way. There's no way that he finds the exact place they are coming down every time without even looking.

If the shooters don't like it, they should adjust their landings :drunk

Sure you can do it without looking. You know where a guy goes up at by how their body is aligned. Basically, if you put your foot under where the ball is released, the players is likely to land on your foot more times than not.

[Kori Ellis]

Sure you can do it without looking. You know where a guy goes up at by how their body is aligned. Basically, if you put your foot under where the ball is released, the players is likely to land on your foot more times than not.

So is Steve Francis dirty for doing it to Manu later in the same game?

[stretch]

This coming from that bastion of sportsmanship Steve Francis. :rolleyes
if you read the article, there was NO mention of Francis saying anything.

[sandman]

Sure you can do it without looking. You know where a guy goes up at by how their body is aligned. Basically, if you put your foot under where the ball is released, the players is likely to land on your foot more times than not.

And that is against the rules?

Again I have to ask- if some big name scorers like Dirk, Ray Allen and Vince openly and publicly complain about it, and Stern does not make a rule, much less get the officials to be more aware of it, then what does that say about the seriousness of the matter to Stern?

The man has made just about every single rule change to benefit the offensive player and improve scoring. I doubt he would leave this one out there if he thought it was a large problem.

[BigVee]

Huge Spurs fan, but not a huge fan of some of Bowen's tactics. I believe he does these things on purpose and sometimes an injury to another player is the result.

[ShoogarBear]

This how I have always thought of it. Even if Bowen is intentionally trying to get in their way. There's no way that he finds the exact place they are coming down every time without even looking.

If the shooters don't like it, they should adjust their landings :drunkThat's a big disingenuous. It's very easy, once a jump shooter is in the air, to put your feet in the spot he left and even to turn away while you're doing it.

You may not hit the exact spot where he's coming down, but you'll be close enough to cause problems most of the time.

[hitmanyr2k]

Sure you can do it without looking. You know where a guy goes up at by how their body is aligned. Basically, if you put your foot under where the ball is released, the players is likely to land on your foot more times than not.

Don't expect the Bruce apologists to think that way. Hell, Bruce has been using that tactic for so long now the guy can do it at will. You can tell by Bruce's mechanics that he's intentionally trying to stick the foot under Francis. I mean when you jump you don't try to land by splitting your legs as far apart as possible lol. I can't believe some people are even trying to defend this shit.

[Sportcamper]

Bowen is dirty...Look at the video...He does this all the time...

[samikeyp]

if you read the article, there was NO mention of Francis saying anything.

then his teammates should have been men and given their names instead of being little cowardly bitches.

[Fabbs]

This how I have always thought of it. Even if Bowen is intentionally trying to get in their way. There's no way that he finds the exact place they are coming down every time without even looking.

If the shooters don't like it, they should adjust their landings :drunk

I hope you are kidding. Rules say shooter must be given his normal place to land. Bowen goes wayy out of his way to spread his feet vs Francis, most certainly does try to plant his foot where Francis would be coming down. And does. Dirty d and nothing to be proud of.

Lot of Homer Simpson Spurs posts. :rolleyes

[samikeyp]

Don't expect the Bruce apologists to think that way. Hell, Bruce has been using that tactic for so long now the guy can do it at will. You can tell by Bruce's mechanics that he's intentionally trying to stick the foot under Francis. I mean when you jump you don't try to land by splitting your legs as far apart as possible lol. I can't believe some people are even trying to defend this shit.

so then Bruce is the only one who does this or anything remotely controversial. You seem to think he is the only one. Or do you feel others do it too.

[dimsah]

If Bowen had kept his legs pinned together at the knees after he jumped going forward (not straight up) what would happen? He would have fucking fell into Francis, and thus had a foul called.

Fuck'em. If you don't like Bowen that's too bad.

[timvp]

That was a dirty play by Bowen. In fact, if he got suspended for a game I wouldn't shed a tear. You can't stick your whole leg underneath a guy who is in the air. It serves no purpose other than to injure.

And Bowen knows what he's doing. The master of defensive footwork isn't going to have his leg accidentally sticking out right where Francis is going to land. I like Bowen as much as the next Spurs fan, but this was a cheap, dirty play.

You stick your leg out like that when you are playing on the streets and you better expect a fight to break out. It's a low move and Bowen is good enough to not have to resort to it. I could understand doing it to a player like Dirk or someone that he wants to have a mental edge on, but to stick his leg under Steve Francis in November is dumb.

[samikeyp]

I think Bruce is chippy and he does stretch the rules often but so does half the league. People here are acting as if Bowen is the only one. Dirty implies intent to injure, IMO, and I don't think he has that. Of course that's just an opinion, I don't know for sure...no one else here does either.

[Kori Ellis]

You can't stick your whole leg underneath a guy who is in the air.

He barely got his foot under him. It wasn't even close to his whole leg.

[Kori Ellis]

I hope you are kidding.

Yes, I was kidding about the adjusting. Thus the emoticon.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

That was a dirty play by Bowen. In fact, if he got suspended for a game I wouldn't shed a tear. You can't stick your whole leg underneath a guy who is in the air. It serves no purpose other than to injure.

And Bowen knows what he's doing. The master of defensive footwork isn't going to have his leg accidentally sticking out right where Francis is going to land. I like Bowen as much as the next Spurs fan, but this was a cheap, dirty play.

You stick your leg out like that when you are playing on the streets and you better expect a fight to break out. It's a low move and Bowen is good enough to not have to resort to it. I could understand doing it to a player like Dirk or someone that he wants to have a mental edge on, but to stick his leg under Steve Francis in November is dumb.

:tu :tu

I respect Bowen's work ethic but sometimes it looks really fishy

[samikeyp]

Lot of Homer Simpson Spurs posts

which are just as biased views as those against Bowen by those who feel that way for the sole reason of where he plays also presented here.

[ShoogarBear]

I could understand doing it to a player like Dirk or someone that he wants to have a mental edge on, but to stick his leg under Steve Francis in November is dumb.There is one very smart part about it. The whole point of what Bruce does it to get inside the opponents' heads, even if he's not doing anything.

Do it during a meaningless game in November? Dirk will still be thinking about it in May.

[JamStone]

Hey, I remember Pistons fans yelling their players were not dirty in 89-90


You sure? What Pistons fans were saying that? Those Pistons fans who claim that were just being homers like most Spurs fans are with Bruce.

Because, even though I'm a Pistons fan, I have no problem saying that Bill Laimbeer and Rick Mahorn were two of the dirtiest players ever to play in the history of the league. I won't even blink while admitting that.

Again, what Pistons fans were saying this in 1989 and 1990?

[samikeyp]

I respect Bowen's work ethic but sometimes it looks really fishy

I would agree with that.

[ShoogarBear]

which are just as biased views as those against Bowen by those who feel that way for the sole reason of where he plays also presented here.No, there are a number of Spur and Bowen fans who don't defend that particular play. Hardly a group that is displaying any bias.

[kris]

HAHA Mikey just say he's dirty and get it over with.

[timvp]

There is one very smart part about it. The whole point of what Bruce does it to get inside the opponents' heads, even if he's not doing anything.

Do it during a meaningless game in November? Dirk will still be thinking about it in May.

Eh. I think the only ones who will remember it in May are the refs and Stu Jackson.

[samikeyp]

You sure? What Pistons fans were saying that? Those Pistons fans who claim that were just being homers like most Spurs fans are with Bruce.

Because, even though I'm a Pistons fan, I have no problem saying that Bill Laimbeer and Rick Mahorn were two of the dirtiest players ever to play in the history of the league. I won't even blink while admitting that.

Again, what Pistons fans were saying this in 1989 and 1990?

That is a fair point but just because a Spurs fan doesn't believe Bowen is dirty, that doesn't make him or her incapable of objectivity, which is what a homer is.

[hitmanyr2k]

so then Bruce is the only one who does this or anything remotely controversial. You seem to think he is the only one. Or do you feel others do it too.

This isn't about other players. This is about Bruce Bowen. He uses this tactic far more than any other player I've seen and I watch a lot of basketball. That kind of crap can jeopardize someone's career and it's time people stop trying to rationalize Bowen's bullshit with the "other players do it" garbage.

[ShoogarBear]

Again, what Pistons fans were saying this in 1989 and 1990?Your daddy.

[samikeyp]

No, there are a number of Spur and Bowen fans who don't defend that particular play. Hardly a group that is displaying any bias.

so people who think Bowen is dirty just because he is a Spur are not biased against him?

[samikeyp]

This isn't about other players. This is about Bruce Bowen. He uses this tactic far more than any other player I've seen and I watch a lot of basketball. That kind of crap can jeopardize someone's career and it's time people stop trying to rationalize Bowen's bullshit with the "other players do it" garbage.

Ok...but I am not sure where I was rationalizing his behavior.

[whottt]

That was a dirty play by Bowen. In fact, if he got suspended for a game I wouldn't shed a tear. You can't stick your whole leg underneath a guy who is in the air. It serves no purpose other than to injure.

And Bowen knows what he's doing. The master of defensive footwork isn't going to have his leg accidentally sticking out right where Francis is going to land. I like Bowen as much as the next Spurs fan, but this was a cheap, dirty play.

You stick your leg out like that when you are playing on the streets and you better expect a fight to break out. It's a low move and Bowen is good enough to not have to resort to it. I could understand doing it to a player like Dirk or someone that he wants to have a mental edge on, but to stick his leg under Steve Francis in November is dumb.



You'd have a great point if it happened all the time...but it doesn't. It's happened one other time with Vince Carter...2 years ago.


You saying that it never happens with other players jumping on a 3 and landing on a foot? I call BS. I'd say it happens multiple times per week.


And if Bruce is doing it all the time, why don't guys gets sprains more often?


Sorry, Bruce owns people nightly, and so when something like this happens guys instanly pull this card to explain past ownership by Bruce...

I want you to show me a defender who constenst threes hard that doesn't wind up with his foot under someone from time to time...when you jump forward, your legs are going to land sticking in front of you.

Bottom line, if someone else had done this besdies Bruce, there wouldn't be all this discussion about it.


People don't like getting owned...

[ShoogarBear]

so people who think Bowen is dirty just because he is a Spur are not biased against him?Maybe, but that's not what the quotation said.

The only group that we can say almost certainly isn't biased are those Spur/Bowen fans who aren't defending him.

[hitmanyr2k]

If Bowen had kept his legs pinned together at the knees after he jumped going forward (not straight up) what would happen? He would have fucking fell into Francis, and thus had a foul called.

Fuck'em. If you don't like Bowen that's too bad.

WTF? Stop playing dumb. Bruce doesn't have to keep his legs pinned together but at the same time he doesn't have to do the splits and stick that leg out as far as he can either. No one lands like that. Go ahead and jump right now. You're sure as hell not going to land with your legs splitting that far apart.

[timvp]

He barely got his foot under him. It wasn't even close to his whole leg.

Bowen stuck as much as he could under him. BOTH of Francis feet land on Bowen. His first foot lands on Bowen's shin and then second foot lands on his foot. And it's that second foot that he hurt.

I've never seen a player in any level of basketball anywhere who happens to land both feet on another player's leg/shin/ankle/foot.

[Kori Ellis]

Watch some more game tape, defenders feet are quite often in the way of shooters. I think most of the time it's just circumstantial.

All I know is that Bowen pushes things as much as he can push them without being what I consider dirty. If it's dirty to someone, then that's cool. To me, it's just crafty and a big part of why he's successful. All I know is that if he's already bothering players in November, that's a damn good sign. Usually he doesn't even get warmed up yet. :lol

Has Bowen ever even been suspended?

I know that if he was regularly intentionally injuring all these stars, he would have been repeatedly suspended in his career.

[samikeyp]

The only group that we can say almost certainly isn't biased are those Spur/Bowen fans who aren't defending him.

I would agree...but my point still stands.

[JamStone]

Your daddy.


Cute. Intelligent. Succinct.

A memorable retort.

[boutons_]

There doesn't seem to be much noise in the sports press.

Anybody find a youtube of all Bruces dirty antics? Surely some anti-fan will put one together.

[tlongII]

Watch some more game tape, defenders feet are quite often in the way of shooters. I think most of the time it's just circumstantial.

All I know is that Bowen pushes things as much as he can push them without being what I consider dirty. If it's dirty to someone, then that's cool. To me, it's just crafty and a big part of why he's successful. All I know is that if he's already bothering players in November, that's a damn good sign. Usually he doesn't even get warmed up yet. :lol

Has Bowen ever even been suspended?

I know that if he was regularly intentionally injuring all these stars, he would have been repeatedly suspended in his career.

I don't recall Karl Malone getting suspended either. Doesn't mean he wasn't dirty.

[ShoogarBear]

I know that if he was regularly intentionally injuring all these stars, he would have been repeatedly suspended in his career.Nobody's saying he's intentionally injuring people. But he's doing things where he knows that somebody might get hurt, and he knows that's an advantage for him in the long run.

timvp is right, you grab and push somebody playing on the street, they'll just grab and push you back 99% of the time. You stick your foot under their J, you best be prepared to fight.

[spurster]

Bruce plays very close to the man he's defending. I would guess that he's trying to get his feet as close to their landing position as possible and sometimes (or often on your point of view) misses.

Is that dirty? Sure. I'm also sure the league pays close attention, and they haven't punished him yet, though maybe they are waiting for the right example.


Bruce can get his leg under the jumpshooters, but who's going to knock them down when they make layups.

[ShoogarBear]

Cute. Intelligent. Succinct.

A memorable retort.Chill, dude. Twas a joke.

You wanted an actual list of Piston fans from 1990?

Steve
Darryl
Mike

All I can think of right now.

[whottt]

So now Bowen's getting compared to Karl Malone?

I can't recall Bruce ever shoving someone from behind with the intent to hurt...trying to hit people in the balls, throwing elbows, basically the stuff that every player on the Mavs, Sonics, Nuggets, and Rockets do with regularity.

The only guys I see calling out Bruce are the gigantic vaginas of the league.

Kobe doesn't call him dirty...

[Kori Ellis]

timvp is right, you grab and push somebody playing on the street, they'll just grab and push you back 99% of the time. You stick your foot under their J, you best be prepared to fight

I guess I'll trust you two hardcore street ballas on this :lol

[JamStone]

Chill, dude. Twas a joke.


Chill on the chill preaching. Twas sarcasm.


Next time, I'll just respond with "your mamma" so you get it.

[ShoogarBear]

I guess I'll trust you two hardcore street ballas on this :lolThat's the point. Has nothing to do with hardcore street ballas. You go to the Dominion Health Club and do that and you'll start a fight.

[kris]

I don't think Bowen does this to try to be dirty. I think he does this to make other players uncomfortable about shooting and think about where they are going to land instead of thinking about shooting the next time they take a shot. If he's got a shooter worried about how they are going to land, the battle is over and Bowen has won. Is he trying to hurt someone? No. Will he cry if he does? No. Bowen is as smart as they come, he uses EVERYTHING he can to his advantage. He shows you his hands, but if he does, look at his feet.

[Bruno]

I don't recall Karl Malone getting suspended either. Doesn't mean he wasn't dirty.

12/5/03
The NBA suspended Karl Malone (LAL) for 1 game for throwing an elbow at
Steve Nash (Dal) during Thursday's Dal-LAL game.

11/22/00
The NBA fined Karl Malone (Uta) $7,500 and suspended him for 1 game for
throwing an elbow at Christian Laettner (Dal) during Monday's Dal-Uta game.

4/12/99
The NBA fined Karl Malone (Uta) $4,000 and suspended him for one game for
throwing a punch at Othella Harrington (Hou) during Sunday's Uta-Hou game.

4/10/98
The NBA fined Karl Malone (Uta) $5,000 and suspended him for one game for
throwing an elbow that knocked David Robinson (SA) unconscious in
Wednesday's Uta-SA game. The league said that the contact was
unintentional, but Malone should not have been swinging his elbows.

[whottt]

The reason people get pissed in streetball is because playing D in streetball is considered illegal. People get pissed at a lot of stuff in pick up games. Because it's supposed to be for fun...not life and death. The NBA is life and death...career or no career.

I guess the NBA needs to make a rule that you can't contest or attempt to block 3 point shots unless you are jumping straight in the air. Because it's impossible to do that without your feet landing in front of you.

[tlongII]

That's the point. Has nothing to do with hardcore street ballas. You go to the Dominion Health Club and do that and you'll start a fight.

Dude, at your age you can't jump high enough for someone to get their legs under you.

[Fabbs]

Has Bowen ever even been suspended?

I know that if he was regularly intentionally injuring all these stars, he would have been repeatedly suspended in his career.

Stern and integrity? Was Karl Malone ever suspended. D'Oh i just read the above post. If so it was much too short. Did Shaq ever get called for an offensive foul between 2000 and 2002.

Just because Stern lets it slide means nothing.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't think Bowen does this to try to be dirty. I think he does this to make other players uncomfortable about shooting and think about where they are going to land instead of thinking about shooting the next time they take a shot. If he's got a shooter worried about how they are going to land, the battle is over and Bowen has won. Is he trying to hurt someone? No. Will he cry if he does? No. Bowen is as smart as they come, he uses EVERYTHING he can to his advantage. He shows you his hands, but if he does, look at his feet.

That's exactly my opinion.

[kris]

Sorry Kori, I just realized you already said that.

[ShoogarBear]

Dude, at your age you can't jump high enough for someone to get their legs under you.Your momma did.

[samikeyp]

Is that dirty? Sure. I'm also sure the league pays close attention, and they haven't punished him yet, though maybe they are waiting for the right example.

I think this is where the debate lies...who determines its dirty? The league? Us as fans? the other players? I think we have shown here that different people have different views on what is and what isn't dirty. Just because two people have differing opinions on what is dirty, doesn't mean they are wrong, just different. Unless the NBA comes out and says something....we will continue this debate.

[Sportcamper]

If Bowen was a Lakers & took out Tim Duncan I am sure all of you would just call him a “crafty” defender... :lol

[ShoogarBear]

Actually Bruce has been suspended, right, for an incident with Ray-Ray last year?

[whottt]

Actually Bruce has been suspended, right, for an incident with Ray-Ray last year?


Nope.

[Bruno]

Actually Bruce has been suspended, right, for an incident with Ray-Ray last year?

No, just fined.

Bowen "criminal" past :

3/28/06
The NBA fined Bruce Bowen (SA) $10,000 for kicking Ray Allen (Sea) in the
back during Sunday's SA-Sea game.

3/2/02
The NBA fined Bruce Bowen (SA) $7,500 and assessed him a flagrant foul for
his flying kick that hit Wally Szczerbiak (Min) in the face during Friday's
SA-Min game.

and that's all.

[Kori Ellis]

I think this is where the debate lies...who determines its dirty? The league? Us as fans? the other players? I think we have shown here that different people have different views on what is and what isn't dirty. Just because two people have differing opinions on what is dirty, doesn't mean they are wrong, just different. Unless the NBA comes out and says something....we will continue this debate.

Actually it doesn't even matter what anyone says is "dirty". That's the most subjective thing ever.

It just matters what is breaking the rules.

Maybe Bowen gets suspended on this and then they'll be a precedent for a rule.

But in past years, opponents have sent tape to the league on Bowen's "dirty" tactics over and over. And the league has basically said he's playing within the rules.

Until they say different, that's how it is.

There's a rule against punching, going for the head, etc. Until there's a specific rule that says you can't be looking the other way and sort of intentionally but maybe perhaps accidentally have your foot under where a shooter might perhaps maybe possibly land, then Bowen will just do what he does.

[samikeyp]

If Bowen was a Lakers & took out Tim Duncan I am sure all of you would just call him a “crafty” defender...

Of course! :)

Isn't that what Kobe called him?

[whottt]

I am surprised the gash he put in Brent Barry's forehead in the playoffs didn't make the list.

Amazing how all these guys that Bruce hurts have no problem playing on the same team with him...hypocrites much?


Essily translated as: I don't have a problem with Bruce Bowen...unless he's guarding me.

And people must not have very much respect for Gregg Poppovich either...if Bruce was deliberately trying to hurt guys his ass would be glued to Pop's bench. Ask Kevin Willis...Pop doesn't even put up with showboating....much less injuring guys.

[timvp]

I guess I'll trust you two hardcore street ballas on this :lol

:wakeup

If 5'2 Joe Prunty tried to fight me for supposedly putting my feet under him when he was trying to land, I think it's a pretty universally held concept. You don't give someone room to land in any level of basketball and you better expect a pissed off opponent.

[ShoogarBear]

Okay, that's right. He should have been suspended, though, because all he did was piss Allen off and he kicked the Spurs asses that game.

[samikeyp]

Actually it doesn't even matter what anyone says is "dirty". That's the most subjective thing ever.

It just matters what is breaking the rules.

Maybe Bowen gets suspended on this and then they'll be a precedent for a rule.

But in past years, opponents have sent tape to the league on Bowen's "dirty" tactics over and over. And the league has basically said he's playing within the rules.

Until they say different, that's how it is.

There's a rule against punching, going for the head, etc. Until there's a specific rule that says you can't be looking the other way and sort of intentionally but maybe perhaps accidentally have your foot under where a shooter might perhaps maybe possibly land, then Bowen will just do what he does.

That is basically where I was going.....you put it better than I did. :)

[Sportcamper]

Mike Please!!!!! Bowen game is to injure the opposing team’s star player & Spurs Fans Defend This?

[samikeyp]

Mike Please!!!!! Bowen game is to injure the opposing team’s star player & Spurs Fans Defend This?

SHHHHH!! That's a secret. :)

But Kobe did say BB was the toughest defender on him.

[Kori Ellis]

:wakeup

If 5'2 Joe Prunty tried to fight me for supposedly putting my feet under him when he was trying to land, I think it's a pretty universally held concept. You don't give someone room to land in any level of basketball and you better expect a pissed off opponent.

Was he crossing you over? Or why did you resort to such a dirty vile tactic?

You are better than that. :married:

[nkdlunch]

They are giving Franchise too much credit. He sucks now and there is not need to injury the poor bastard. Knicks suck w/him or w/out him

[AMAREownsALL]

Bowen is dirty just like most of his fans

[whottt]

:wakeup

If 5'2 Joe Prunty tried to fight me for supposedly putting my feet under him when he was trying to land, I think it's a pretty universally held concept. You don't give someone room to land in any level of basketball and you better expect a pissed off opponent.

Did you do it on purpose?

[kris]

Bowen is dirty just like most of his fans

You know Bowens not in that picture right?

[timvp]

Was he crossing you over? Or why did you resort to such a dirty vile tactic?

You are better than that. :married:


Did you do it on purpose?

:lol

He was just mad cuz he couldn't hit a shot on me. And yeah I probably did stick my leg under him but that was already after he had pissed me off.

:cooldevil

[dimsah]

Bowen is dirty just like most of his fans
Dude, you have Raja Bell on your team. If Bowen is dirty then you have to say Bell is to.








and Bell's fans.

[whottt]

I just notice that the guys that get pissed at him are offensive players that don't play D, of any kind, at all. They never do it because they don't contest shots.

Do they have a right to be pissed off? Yeap...Doesn't mean it's on purpose. And Bruce has a right to not give a shit if it pisses them off.


I remember in baseball if you bunted on Nolan Ryan you could expect a fastball in the ribs the next time up to bat....was bunting on Nolan dirty considering he had a bad back and could injure him? He seemed to think so.

Unfortuntately for him teams got sick of it and one game Tony Larussa had every guy in his lineup bunt when they went up to bat.

When Bruce gets caught doing it deliberately then you can say it's deliberate...until that time, the guys don't like being defended, that's obvious, and the fact that it pisses them off doesn't mean it's intentional. I'd just say he's more worried about making them miss the shot than he is about where they land...something for them to think about and consider when they are shooting.

[Kamnik]

hehe i just sprained my ankle yesterday landing on someones foot also :)

uhm... im a big spurs fan and i always liked Bruce; i never considered him dirty when watching him play (even though it is hard to notice little things when you are just watching)

BUT after watching this tape i consider Bruce at least a bit dirty (hard to use just phrase dirty as im a spurs fan :D )





Bruce COULD and SHOULD land in some other way

he knows very well that someone gets hurt this way from time to time and the next time he plays that player or his teammate they will have him "in their head" and they will be thinking more about landing good than actually shooting good 100%

i personally dont like whiners in basketball and i return rough play with rough play but if someone got me injured in this way i surely wouldnt have my mouth shut about it

[hitmanyr2k]

I just notice that the guys that get pissed at him are offensive players that don't play D, of any kind, at all. They never do it because they don't contest shots.

Do they have a right to be pissed off? Yeap...Doesn't mean it's on purpose. And Bruce has a right to not give a shit if it pisses them off.

I remember in baseball if you bunted on Nolan Ryan you could expect a fastball in the ribs the next time up to bat....was bunting on Nolan dirty considering he had a bad back and could injure him? He seemed to think so.

Unfortuntately for him teams got sick of it and one game Tony Larussa had every guy in his lineup bunt when they went up to bat.

When Bruce gets caught doing it deliberately then you can say it's deliberate...until that time, the guys don't like being defended, that's obvious, and the fact that it pisses them off doesn't mean it's intentional. I'd just say he's more worried about making them miss the shot than he is about where they land...something for them to think about and consider when they are shooting.

It's not about Bruce getting caught. It's about him doing something intentional that can injure a player or jeopardize that player's career. I don't care if Bruce does it to get in a player's head. I don't care if the league doesn't suspend him. I don't care what happened in baseball. I don't care about any way you try to rationalize that crap. Bruce Bowen is dirty...period.

[samikeyp]

Bruce Bowen is dirty...period.

That implies fact, when in actuality, its an opinion.

But...its one to which you are intitled, but if one does not share that, doesn't make either of you wrong.

[Kamnik]

Actually it doesn't even matter what anyone says is "dirty". That's the most subjective thing ever.

It just matters what is breaking the rules.

Maybe Bowen gets suspended on this and then they'll be a precedent for a rule.

But in past years, opponents have sent tape to the league on Bowen's "dirty" tactics over and over. And the league has basically said he's playing within the rules.

Until they say different, that's how it is.

There's a rule against punching, going for the head, etc. Until there's a specific rule that says you can't be looking the other way and sort of intentionally but maybe perhaps accidentally have your foot under where a shooter might perhaps maybe possibly land, then Bowen will just do what he does.


i dont think it is very subjective thing to someone who plays basketball a lot

for me dirty players are the ones doing things that have a good chance of getting someone injured



no real player minds a bit of rough play; but you dont get injured being hit on your arms or so being fouled hard


putting your feet under someone who is going to land intentionaly IS dirty or however someone chooses to call it

[samikeyp]

i dont think it is very subjective thing to someone who plays basketball a lot

for me dirty players are the ones doing things that have a good chance of getting someone injured

that is why its subjective, someone else may not feel that way.

[Kamnik]

that is why its subjective, someone else may not feel that way.

i dont think someone who never played basketball can really judge good about these things

i and most of the posters here probably played a lot and all of them know that in such a clean situation defender's feet dont land under attackers feet just by chance


i watched the video several times; Bruce could land in a deiferent way if he wanted

EDIT:

p.s.

per say the Knick's players played a lot of ball in their life and know that "Bruce could land otherwise"

[samikeyp]

i dont think someone who never played basketball can really judge good about these things

i and most of the posters here probably played a lot and all of them know that in such a clean situation defender's feet dont land under attackers feet just by chance


i watched the video several times; Bruce could land in a deiferent way if he wanted

You are assuming I have never played basketball?

As someone who played a lot at a younger, thinner age, I understand what you are saying but its still subjective. Personally, I never called a foul unless my arm was cut off even though, by definition of the rules, I was fouled. It didn't bother me, it did bother other people. Some people's definition of "rough play" may be different than anothers but neither of them are wrong.

[whottt]

I don't think the punkasses that Bruce has owned are exactly the voices of objectivity on this subject.

They get injured during a frustrating night with Bruce...you think they can be objective? These guys don't like being shut down...guys do not always have rational reasons for being pissed...

And the night Vince Carter made that accusation came after a couple of asskickings at the hands of Bruce.


Put it this way...if this was a jury trial, the guys accusing Bruce would not be allowed to sit on the jury, guranteed.


And to fans of other teams(and certain SPURS FANS) saying that if Bruce didn't play for the Spurs we'd see things differently....


If Bruce played for their team the guys saying that would see things differently too...Guranteed.

Nothing funnier than having Laker, Piston and Mav fan get on their high horse...

Can Jazz fan coming in here to lecture us on dirty play be far behind?

But go ahead and throw Bruce under the bus...you know who you are.

[2Cleva]

And that is against the rules?

Again I have to ask- if some big name scorers like Dirk, Ray Allen and Vince openly and publicly complain about it, and Stern does not make a rule, much less get the officials to be more aware of it, then what does that say about the seriousness of the matter to Stern?

The man has made just about every single rule change to benefit the offensive player and improve scoring. I doubt he would leave this one out there if he thought it was a large problem.

Unwritted rules of the game. It's not written in the rules not to grab someone's balls but that doesn't mean you should do it.

Trying to justify it instead of admitting it is what it is makes one look bad.

[samikeyp]

I don't think the punkasses that Bruce has owned are exactly the voices of objectivity on this subject.

Good point.

[samikeyp]

Unwritted rules of the game. It's not written in the rules not to grab someone's balls but that doesn't mean you should do it.

Actually that is covered by "unsportsmanlike conduct" which is a judgement call and if a ref though Bruce was doing this to hurt someone, they could apply the same rule.

[Kamnik]

I don't think the punkasses that Bruce has owned are exactly the voices of objectivity on this subject.

They get injured during a frustrating night with Bruce...you think they can be objective? These guys don't like being shut down...guys do not always have rational reasons for being pissed...

And the night Vince Carter made that accusation came after a couple of asskickings at the hands of Bruce.


Put it this way...if this was a jury trial, the guys accusing Bruce would not be allowed to sit on the jury, guranteed.


And to fans of other teams saying that if Bruce didn't play for the Spurs we'd see things differently....


If Bruce played for their team the guys saying that would see things differently too...

But go ahead and throw Bruce under the bus...you know who you are.


i dont like whiners and i especially dont like neither Vince Carter neither Ray Allen

but after watching the replay like 30 times and in slow motion i believe Bruce does it at least a bit on purpose; he knows others might get injured (good probability) and he is using that to mess with their game

i dont approve that

[samikeyp]

i dont like whiners

On this we agree. I don't think though the thought of "hey, maybe I can injure this guy" goes through Bruce's head in the middle of a game.

[Kamnik]

Unwritted rules of the game. It's not written in the rules not to grab someone's balls but that doesn't mean you should do it.

Trying to justify it instead of admitting it is what it is makes one look bad.

i agree



NBA players (all players) should look out for each other (in terms of serious injury)

using your elbows a lot or not at least a bit watch where you land IS DIRTY

[samikeyp]

NBA players (all players) should look out for each other (in terms of serious injury)

using your elbows a lot or not at least a bit watch where you land IS DIRTY

IMO, dirty is the intent to injure and I don't think Bruce is doing that. I will say there is a bigger problem with elbows flying in the league. Not as bad as when Malone was playing though. :fro

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

This is the most successful thread I have had in a long time. :) :tu

[Kamnik]

You are assuming I have never played basketball?

As someone who played a lot at a younger, thinner age, I understand what you are saying but its still subjective. Personally, I never called a foul unless my arm was cut off even though, by definition of the rules, I was fouled. It didn't bother me, it did bother other people. Some people's definition of "rough play" may be different than anothers but neither of them are wrong.

on opposite

i expect every big basketball fan probably played some basketball some time in his life

but as my last reply wrote:

there are some unwritten rules betwen players that should be followed

[samikeyp]

but as my last reply wrote:

there are some unwritten rules betwen players that should be followed

agreed, I just think some of those rules aren't always broken. Just my .02.

[2Cleva]

Actually that is covered by "unsportsmanlike conduct" which is a judgement call and if a ref though Bruce was doing this to hurt someone, they could apply the same rule.

Where in the rules prior to this season does it say "Thou shall not grab balls"?

There are many more tricks of the trade that are dirty that refs don't call. Stuff that players (regardless of the level) would want to fight for. Look closely at any John Stockton video for more.

Is what Bowen did illegal? No. Does he do it on purpose? Obviously so. Is the intent to harm? Yes. Saying he's not is defeating the purpose of his actions.

If I stand in the middle of a room and start swinging a bat and someone happens to come close to me, did I intend to harm? Of course I did. I engaged in recless behavior. That is how Bowen plays.

[Kamnik]

IMO, dirty is the intent to injure and I don't think Bruce is doing that. I will say there is a bigger problem with elbows flying in the league. Not as bad as when Malone was playing though. :fro

if i am throwing stones around my town over roofs on random because i get the kick out of it i might not do it so someoenw would get injured (ok stupid example)

but if there is 1% chance someone gets hurt by doing it after a time someone will get injured



not watching where your foot lands (and in this case Bruce knew exactly where Francis's landing area is) is the same shit


if someone is so careless about it then i consider him dirty

[Kamnik]

Where in the rules prior to this season does it say "Thou shall not grab balls"?

There are many more tricks of the trade that are dirty that refs don't call. Stuff that players (regardless of the level) would want to fight for. Look closely at any John Stockton video for more.

Is what Bowen did illegal? No. Does he do it on purpose? Obviously so. Is the intent to harm? Yes. Saying he's not is defeating the purpose of his actions.

If I stand in the middle of a room and start swinging a bat and someone happens to come close to me, did I intend to harm? Of course I did. I engaged in recless behavior. That is how Bowen plays.

hehe our stupid examples came almost simultaniously :lol


i dont like too much law talk or whatever.... fact is that this sprain didnt happen in traffic or some other situation where you dont know where the opposite player will land

Bruce did know (as he is an experienced player) where Francis will land and if he doesnt care or think (every player thinks about it...) about these things happening then he is dirty in my eyes

[JamStone]

I'd like to see Bruce somehow get caught on a switch on Shaq and when Shaq went up for a half hook, Bruce put his leg underneath Shaq and Shaq break his leg or foot.

Would that happen? Nope, cuz Bruce would be sure to get out of the way so Shaq wouldn't land on his leg or foot.

Bruce knows what he's doing. It's at the very least borderline dirty.

You don't have to defend Bruce. Just call it what it is. It's a likely dirty tactic that gives Bruce a mental edge over his opponent.



Put it this way...if this was a jury trial, the guys accusing Bruce would not be allowed to sit on the jury, guranteed.

They wouldn't sit on the jury because they would all be witnesses called to testify against Bruce.

[Kamnik]

Bruce knows what he's doing. It's at the very least borderline dirty.


exactly

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I'd like to see Bruce somehow get caught on a switch on Shaq and when Shaq went up for a half hook, Bruce put his leg underneath Shaq and Shaq break his leg or foot.

Would that happen? Nope, cuz Bruce would be sure to get out of the way so Shaq wouldn't land on his leg or foot.


Didn't Artest do that just last year? Shaq missed a month as a result and Ron walked away without a scratch, fine, or suspension.

[nkdlunch]

I'd like to see Bruce somehow get caught on a switch on Shaq and when Shaq went up for a half hook, Bruce put his leg underneath Shaq and Shaq break his leg or foot.


This happened with Artest not Bruce. Shaq was out for weeks I beleive. Did anybody call Artest dirty?? nope. maybe just some crybaby heat fans. just like these crybaby Knicks

[nkdlunch]

damn u beat me

[TheSanityAnnex]

Did it really take this long for a Bruce homer to pull out the "well look at what Artest did" line?

[JamStone]

Actually, I frequent the Heat messageboards. And, I'm pretty sure a lot of Heat fans were in uproar saying Artest did it intentionally. I don't know how many people called Artest dirty. But, everyone already knew he was crazy.

My point was that Bruce would be sure not to get underneath Shaq because it's more likely that Bruce get hurt than Shaq get hurt in that instance. Ron Artest is just crazy. He don't give a shit.

[stretch]

then his teammates should have been men and given their names instead of being little cowardly bitches.
I couldn't agree more.

[hitmanyr2k]

Didn't Artest do that just last year? Shaq missed a month as a result and Ron walked away without a scratch, fine, or suspension.

I remember that play and I thought that was intentional as well. Why?

1. Because I saw Artest stick his foot exactly where Shaq would land after he got the rebound.
2. Artest did the Dennis Rodman "look-away" as if to appear what he was doing was unintentional (similar to Bowen last night).
3. Lastly, because Artest showed absolutely no reaction at a 300+ pound man landing on his foot. He didn't even look in Shaq's direction. He just stayed with the classic Dennis Rodman "look-away" as if nothing happened and ran back down court. That tells me he was expecting it.

If anyone has a re-play of this play you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. You just have to see the signs.

[veronicamae]

i just watched the vid. to me, it looked like while yes he could have landed differently, he looked 100% like he was readying to box Francis out in the event that NY got the rebound. in order to do that, you're going to do it as efficiently as possible, and that includes getting ready to do so while still in the air.

[duncan2k5]

With Bowen guarding the team's best perimeter player every night for the last three or four years if he was really dirty there would be more incidents than this. How many jump shots from Dirk, Finley, Kobe, et al has he defended without killing anyone?

The replay showed that Ray Allen messed up his ankle on his own. I didn't actually see VC's injury but given his ease of injury I'm inclined to believe that he was just being a little bitch. On all of that, I'd say this is just an accident.
this is the right answer

[Obstructed_View]

Feb 13, 2005 - The Denver Nuggets placed forward Nene on the injured list on Monday with a left knee sprain. The 22-year old former first round pick was injured in the second quarter of his team's 94-79 loss to the New Jersey Nets on Sunday when he landed awkwardly on Vince Carter's foot.

[duncan2k5]

Your momma did.
LMAO!!!

[duncan2k5]

I remember that play and I thought that was intentional as well. Why?

1. Because I saw Artest stick his foot exactly where Shaq would land after he got the rebound.
2. Artest did the Dennis Rodman "look-away" as if to appear what he was doing was unintentional (similar to Bowen last night).
3. Lastly, because Artest showed absolutely no reaction at a 300+ pound man landing on his foot. He didn't even look in Shaq's direction. He just stayed with the classic Dennis Rodman "look-away" as if nothing happened and ran back down court. That tells me he was expecting it.

If anyone has a re-play of this play you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. You just have to see the signs.
i remember that. he looked like he didnt even know what was going on. i thought it was funny how shaq was writhing in pain on the ground, and artest was there lookin all suspicious :lol

[duncan2k5]

this thread extending to 7 pages on something an "unidentified" knick said is baffling

[pjjrfan]

I saw the play and the replay. I immediately thought that Bruce got a bit too far underneath the shooter. It would have been different had Bruce rose up with him and tried to block his shot at the point of release and Francis came down on him.

I don't know whether Bruce's actions were accidental or intentional. Because so many players have been hurt in this fashion, it's hard to believe the number of players getting hurt in this fashion is merely a coincidence.

If this is a "specific trick" in Bowen's tactical arsenal (and I hope that it's not), I hardly see the point in it. Anyone who has played the game and has twisted or turned an ankle knows how painful this can be.

I love Bowen for his skill, defensive effort and professionalism. Therefore, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this. I hope there's not a pattern starting here.

It's a competitive game and everyone's looking for an edge, yet no one wants to see anyone get hurt - accidental or on purpose.
Bowen has done this forever. Well, as long as he has been a Spur. He doesn't undercut people he just turns and takes a step back, it irks the shooters and it undermines their confidence and concentration. Bruce gets away with it because he is simply playing position defense and boxing out. It's one of his tricks and Bruce has a lot of them. He is in my opinion a great defensive player he won't physically take out a guy but he just gets in your space and ruins your rhythm and timing, it's a great skill, and has won him a solid career in the NBA.

[jmard5]

Physical is fine when its chest to chest, body to body, etc...

When you be "physical" with a player when he can't protect himself - that's the definition of dirty or a cheap shot.

Francis is just protecting himself.

[LilMissSPURfect]

timmy sprained his foot landing on sheed's foot as well and no hoopla outta that one either!

[Obstructed_View]

timmy sprained his foot landing on sheed's foot as well and no hoopla outta that one either!
That's because Rasheed can't cover Duncan.

[MI21]

Pretty much the exact same thing happened to me during a game about 2 months ago. Needless to say the guy who did it to me got a push before all the players came in and broke it up. It's just not something you do to a jumpshooter. It can definitely happen by accident, but other times you can see its on purpose.

It's a dirty little trick and whilst I don't think Bruce does it all the time or anything, he does know what he is doing. Dude is probably the smartest defender in the league and all of a sudden people think that he doesn't know where he is standing? Laughable.

But he does do it and its the only dirty part of his game, and he doesn't do it often so I'm not sure you can call Bruce a really dirty player. He is certainly no Stockton, Malone, Howard, Laimbeer, Mahorn or any of the other famously dirty types.

[Axl Van Dam]

Francis hurt, mates
irked at Bowen

Steve Francis did not play in the second half of last night's loss to the Spurs after spraining his ankle. Some Knicks felt it was caused by Francis being undercut by Bruce Bowen.
Bowen, one the league's best defensive players, has been accused by Vince Carter and Ray Allen of not giving them enough room to land when they shoot jump shots.

Francis, who was injured in the first quarter and returned shortly after that, was not available for comment after the game but several teammates, who did not want to be identified, felt Bowen's play was dirty. X-rays taken at the Garden were negative but it is not known if Francis will be available for tomorrow's game against Denver. Channing Frye also sat in the second half but wasn't hurt. He shot 0-for-5 and is inching closer to losing his starting job.


Frank Isola
:ihit Whiny little bitches!!! They criticize Bruce's style of defense and yet they want to remain anonymous. Whiny pussies!!!! :ihit

[dirk4mvp]

That is a pretty bitch move by stayig anonymous.

[5ToolMan]

The Knicks think Bowen is dirty because he uses dirty tricks. No revelation there.

I have to respect Kobe. He does not cry over a player who earns his deep playing tough defense playing defense.

In this thread Laker Fan sounds a little light in the sneakers like NBA wooses Carter, Allen, Iverson and Francis.

[T Park]

A lot of Bowen's defense starts with his feet. Everyone knows that. But if you look at the tape of any NBA game, you'll find several instances of what Bowen "did" to Francis. Just like was mentioned in this thread earlier, Francis did it to Manu in the same game.

Bowen is crafty as hell. "Dirty" just depends on your definitition of dirty. To me, dirty is throwing elbows, undercutting players while they are in the air, etc.

Dirty players, to me, are guys like Karl Malone, Danny Fortson, Juwan Howard, etc.

Then there's a line of crafty, hard-nosed, tricky players that includes Bowen, Artest (except in his moments of psychotic behavior), etc.

Bowen will always be accused of stuff by some players because he rattles them.

Ray Allen accused Bowen of repeatedly "punching him in the stomach" during a game. Now if Ray Allen, All-Star/Superstar that he is, was actually getting repeatedly punched in the stomach in a game, the league would do something about it.



That ends the deBate right there.


Thank you Kori.

[Isiah Thomas]

That was deliberate I demand a suspension

[kris]

Man, I just watched it 5 more times and that was the sneakiest dirty move of all time. If you've played basketball, you pretty much know that was about as unnatural a move as they come. No one goes up to contest the shot and then splits their feet apart like that to under the opponent. Bowen had to really try to extend his leg out there. The fact that there is debate whether it was dirty or not shows how clever Bruce is. If you don't think it's dirty, pretend you're Bruce on that play and jump up like you are trying to get a hand towards the ball, then turn a little bit and split your one of your feet away from the other If he was boxing out, he would have just turned around and put his arms back. (Why would you split your feet like that?) Bowen had to really try to do that. If he didn't have the reputation, I could possibly see it being some "accidental" thing, but this is Bruce Bowen and that was no accident.

[boutons_]

"Bowen had to really try to extend his leg out there"

Yep, I was already convinced of that weirdness in the Bruce/Vince incident, but I gave Bruce the benefit of the doubt. He no longer gets that benefit. His foot goes spaz on purpose. Mr. Good Guy/Hard Worker/Spokesman/FamilyMan plays dirty. I'm very disappointed.

I'm surprised that the Bruce/Franchise incident hasn't made nearly as much noise as the Bruce/Vince incident.

[spurtime]

I think it's intentional and I think the offensive player needs to adjust to it. Bruce takes the offensive player out of his comfort zone...Too bad.

[pas2704]

Bruce Bowen is a clean player. Just ask his mother. :downspin:

[LEONARD]

cheap and dirty...

[2Cleva]

Just for the record, what Bowen did WAS against the rules, he just didn't get caught.


Francis was undercut by the Spurs' Bruce Bowen as he made a jumper in the first quarter of the Knicks' 105-93 loss Monday night. When he came down, he landed on Bowen and twisted the ankle.

The play was a textbook example of a tactic the NBA is supposed to be cracking down on this season. In an officiating video shown around the league, players were warned to give jump shooters a clear landing spot. No foul was called on the Francis play.

"I didn't even pay any attention to those rules changes," Francis said. "I was asleep for that whole video, if you've noticed in my play."

[nkdlunch]

Man, I just watched it 5 more times and that was the sneakiest dirty move of all time. If you've played basketball, you pretty much know that was about as unnatural a move as they come. No one goes up to contest the shot and then splits their feet apart like that to under the opponent. Bowen had to really try to extend his leg out there. The fact that there is debate whether it was dirty or not shows how clever Bruce is. If you don't think it's dirty, pretend you're Bruce on that play and jump up like you are trying to get a hand towards the ball, then turn a little bit and split your one of your feet away from the other If he was boxing out, he would have just turned around and put his arms back. (Why would you split your feet like that?) Bowen had to really try to do that. If he didn't have the reputation, I could possibly see it being some "accidental" thing, but this is Bruce Bowen and that was no accident.

you obviously have not seen Bowen defend in the past. He always lands with legs split, so he can either recover his man, or go for a rebound, or steal, etc. rookie :rolleyes if shooter lands on his feet, tough shit.


like ppl have mentioned before, landing on somone's foot happens ALL THE TIME

[boutons_]

"landing on somone's foot happens ALL THE TIME"

in traffic, in the paint,when jumping for rebounds, yes. That's often a case where one lands where there was already a foot.

In Bruce's case, the jump shooter is already in/above the space where when Bruce slips his foot under the jumpshooter.

Bruce managed to slip his foot under Vince and Franchise when they were all alone on the perimeter, not in the fog of bodies under the basket. Bruce's foot move is completely unnatural, and now I'm sure it's malicious. At the very best, it's reckless.

[Obstructed_View]

"landing on somone's foot happens ALL THE TIME"

in traffic, in the paint,when jumping for rebounds, yes. That's often a case where one lands where there was already a foot.

In Bruce's case, the jump shooter is already in/above the space where when Bruce slips his foot under the jumpshooter.

Bruce managed to slip his foot under Vince and Franchise when they were all alone on the perimeter, not in the fog of bodies under the basket. Bruce's foot move is completely unnatural, and now I'm sure it's malicious. At the very best, it's reckless.
So when Carter did it to Nene and when Francis did it to Manu it was unnatural, malicious and reckless, right? Until the condemnation is distributed to everyone equally this conversation is completely moot. Or do we blame Bruce Bowen every time someone turns an ankle regardless of whether the Spurs were involved in the game? :rolleyes

[cheguevara]

how the FUCK this thread got to 7 pages? We are seriously discussing that Bowen might have purposefully injured Stevie "my career was over after Houston" franchise????

:lol why didn't Bowen go ahead and injure that fat ass Currie instead, Spurs might have had a better chance at winning the game then. :rolleyes


you guys are giving Stevie too much credit. He sucked before the ankle sprain and he will suck after it.

[2Cleva]

I repeat, now such a move is against the rules. It wasn't last year. Bowen just didn't get caught.

[Obstructed_View]

I repeat, now such a move is against the rules. It wasn't last year. Bowen just didn't get caught.
Then as soon as he and Francis get whistled for it we have something to talk about. Neither did. Sounds like a wash to me.

[kris]

you obviously have not seen Bowen defend in the past. He always lands with legs split, so he can either recover his man, or go for a rebound, or steal, etc. rookie :rolleyes if shooter lands on his feet, tough shit.


like ppl have mentioned before, landing on somone's foot happens ALL THE TIME

So what is Santa Clause bringing you?

[ambchang]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=261107011

Was just watching some of the highlights. It turns out ALL defenders stick their legs out on their landing after defending a jumpshot. This is just one random game off of ESPN guys, take a look. THe only difference is that the guys are not as close in guarding the shooter because they are out of position.

[mavs>spurs2]

how the FUCK this thread got to 7 pages? We are seriously discussing that Bowen might have purposefully injured Stevie "my career was over after Houston" franchise????

:lol why didn't Bowen go ahead and injure that fat ass Currie instead, Spurs might have had a better chance at winning the game then. :rolleyes


you guys are giving Stevie too much credit. He sucked before the ankle sprain and he will suck after it.

What does that have to do with whether or not it was dirty? Just because you say a player sucks doesn't give a reason to intentionally hurt them. Dumbass.

[ChumpDumper]

Just because you say a player sucks doesn't give a reason to intentionally hurt them.You're absolutely right.

It doesn't give Bruce a reason to intentionally hurt him.

[rascal]

After watching the replay, Bowen unnecessarily stuck his foot further out to undercut Francis.

It is a dirty play.

[zero signal]

cheap and dirty...
Sounds like another Wierd Al hit.

[Obstructed_View]

If Bowen risked his reputation intentionally hurting a has-been player from the worst team in the league, in order to have a chance to win an early regular season out-of-conference game, he should be drummed out of the NBA.

[LilMissSPURfect]

Why Didn't Bruce Purposely Injure Dirk And Howard Last Spring ? Why Wait Till 3 Games Into The Season To Injure Francis...of All People.......
C'mon Bruce Get It Straight....
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This Is So Retarded!