Top 30 NBA Spurs (Updated every Sunday)

[exstatic]

Or to put it another way...you'd rather have AJ and Vinny over Manu and Parker...or you think they are irrelevant.
...and he completely overlooks two time All Star Sean Elliott, All NBA defender and rebounder extraordinaire Dennis Rodman, 20/10 PF Terry Cummings, talented wing and lottery pick Willie Anderson, Rod Strickland and anyone else who might blow a hole in his case.

[Warlord23]

Whatever....but the fact is there's no objective criteria with a large sample size you can use to rank Duncan over Robinson...

And that's just talking stats, that's not taking into account the Spurs situation during Drob's career....how much he embodied the Spurs and the city of SA during his career.



Objectively...I win. 100 times out of 100 times.

Subjectively...do what you want....

I just reccomend you state it's subjective otherwis I am going to point out the double standard and contradictory arguments you use when subjectively putting Duncan over Robinson by using team achievments in an argument ovr individual accomplishment...and trying to claim you are being objective.




Or to put it another way...you'd rather have AJ and Vinny over Manu and Parker...


Be my guest.

Again, my point is not about objective vs subjective arguments. It's about "what really happened" vs. "what might have happened if...".

The fact that Robinson had AJ and Vinny does not give him a free pass. T-Mac had a couple of astounding statistical seasons with the Magic, but because he had an injury-prone team that never made it to the second round, no one remembers those seasons. Same rule applies here. For whatever reason, Robinson never got it done in the postseason.

And regarding your argument, can it not be argued that Robinson had superior statistical seasons because he played with AJ and Vinny. Would he have been so dominant if he had a Manu and a Tony helping him out? See what I'm doing ... I'm playing the "what if" game. And there is no end to it.

Ultimately, subjectivity has to be factored into any argument. Scoring 20 points in the first quarter of a regular season blowout is not the same as scoring 20 points in the last quarter of a deciding game in a playoff series, is it? But the stats don't tell that story objectively, do they?

Robinson might have scored and rebounded more efficiently, but Duncan had more "important" points and rebounds from a franchise perspective. Duncan outscored and outrebounded Ben and Rasheed combined not once but twice in the 2005 Finals. He was the one who dropped 37 to eliminate the Lakers in 2003. He was the one who had a near quad-double to finish off the Nets. I'm sure you'd agree that these games were more important than many dominant and efficient games that Robinson might have had in winning the IBM award year in year out.

Sure it is subjective. But is there a way out without factoring in that subjectivity?

[whottt]

You may be overlooking the past a bit. Gervin was unstoppable as a scorer. Put TD in his prime on Gervin's team and they would have combined to become as good as / better than Kobe-Shaq


Yeah well...put Manu, Parker, Kerr and Elie along with an old Drob to play alongside Drob on some of DRob's teams...


Think that'll be good enough for a 2 game swing in 95? I do.

Do you get it?

Hell just switch Horry and Elie.

[whottt]

Again, my point is not about objective vs subjective arguments. It's about "what really happened" vs. "what might have happened if...".


You argument takes common sense and slices it in half...

Do as you wish...just don't ask to me to agree with it.

And I will poke holes on it...

You are incapable of grasping the contributions of anyone but a superstar to a title.

That makes you unobservant....I'm not going to reward you for that by conceding your point.






The fact that Robinson had AJ and Vinny does not give him a free pass. T-Mac had a couple of astounding statistical seasons with the Magic, but because he had an injury-prone team that never made it to the second round, no one remembers those seasons. Same rule applies here. For whatever reason, Robinson never got it done in the postseason.

How'd Duncan do with that same supporting cast?




And regarding your argument, can it not be argued that Robinson had superior statistical seasons because he played with AJ and Vinny. Would he have been so dominant if he had a Manu and a Tony helping him out? See what I'm doing ... I'm playing the "what if" game. And there is no end to it.


Not really, since the year AJ got bounced DRob had his finest season.


Do me a favor...go look at Drob's post season numbers with AJ and Vinny and then without them...

Them tell me with a straight face you don't think it made a difference.







Ultimately, subjectivity has to be factored into any argument. Scoring 20 points in the first quarter of a regular season blowout is not the same as scoring 20 points in the last quarter of a deciding game in a playoff series, is it? But the stats don't tell that story objectively, do they?

Robinson might have scored and rebounded more efficiently, but Duncan had more "important" points and rebounds from a franchise perspective. Duncan outscored and outrebounded Ben and Rasheed combined not once but twice in the 2005 Finals. He was the one who dropped 37 to eliminate the Lakers in 2003. He was the one who had a near quad-double to finish off the Nets. I'm sure you'd agree that these games were more important than many dominant and efficient games that Robinson might have had in winning the IBM award year in year out.

Sure it is subjective. But is there a way out without factoring in that subjectivity?



Ok...well Amare kicked Duncan's ass off the court in 05....


Use a lazy argument lacking insight, common sense and knowledge of the game all you want...just don't expect me to give you credit for an argument by 10 year old newphew could make.

I'm just glad none of you are the Spurs GM(anymore)

[whottt]

Again, my point is not about objective vs subjective arguments. It's about "what really happened" vs. "what might have happened if...".

The fact that Robinson had AJ and Vinny does not give him a free pass. T-Mac had a couple of astounding statistical seasons with the Magic, but because he had an injury-prone team that never made it to the second round, no one remembers those seasons. Same rule applies here. For whatever reason, Robinson never got it done in the postseason.

And regarding your argument, can it not be argued that Robinson had superior statistical seasons because he played with AJ and Vinny. Would he have been so dominant if he had a Manu and a Tony helping him out? See what I'm doing ... I'm playing the "what if" game. And there is no end to it.

Ultimately, subjectivity has to be factored into any argument. Scoring 20 points in the first quarter of a regular season blowout is not the same as scoring 20 points in the last quarter of a deciding game in a playoff series, is it? But the stats don't tell that story objectively, do they?

Robinson might have scored and rebounded more efficiently, but Duncan had more "important" points and rebounds from a franchise perspective. Duncan outscored and outrebounded Ben and Rasheed combined not once but twice in the 2005 Finals. He was the one who dropped 37 to eliminate the Lakers in 2003. He was the one who had a near quad-double to finish off the Nets. I'm sure you'd agree that these games were more important than many dominant and efficient games that Robinson might have had in winning the IBM award year in year out.

Sure it is subjective. But is there a way out without factoring in that subjectivity?


So you think Manu is better than Gervin too? Got it.

[whottt]

Again, my point is not about objective vs subjective arguments. It's about "what really happened" vs. "what might have happened if...".

The fact that Robinson had AJ and Vinny does not give him a free pass. T-Mac had a couple of astounding statistical seasons with the Magic, but because he had an injury-prone team that never made it to the second round, no one remembers those seasons. Same rule applies here. For whatever reason, Robinson never got it done in the postseason.

And regarding your argument, can it not be argued that Robinson had superior statistical seasons because he played with AJ and Vinny. Would he have been so dominant if he had a Manu and a Tony helping him out? See what I'm doing ... I'm playing the "what if" game. And there is no end to it.

Ultimately, subjectivity has to be factored into any argument. Scoring 20 points in the first quarter of a regular season blowout is not the same as scoring 20 points in the last quarter of a deciding game in a playoff series, is it? But the stats don't tell that story objectively, do they?

Robinson might have scored and rebounded more efficiently, but Duncan had more "important" points and rebounds from a franchise perspective. Duncan outscored and outrebounded Ben and Rasheed combined not once but twice in the 2005 Finals. He was the one who dropped 37 to eliminate the Lakers in 2003. He was the one who had a near quad-double to finish off the Nets. I'm sure you'd agree that these games were more important than many dominant and efficient games that Robinson might have had in winning the IBM award year in year out.

Sure it is subjective. But is there a way out without factoring in that subjectivity?





You sure do use a lot of words to say Duncan is better because he has more rings...

That's your argument.

No need to go into detail...it only gives me more ammunition to wreck it.

[whottt]

...and he completely overlooks two time All Star Sean Elliott, All NBA defender and rebounder extraordinaire Dennis Rodman, 20/10 PF Terry Cummings, talented wing and lottery pick Willie Anderson, Rod Strickland and anyone else who might blow a hole in his case.

Read this thread much?


Who ranks higher...Parker, AJ, or Strickland? Manu or Willie?

DRob or Rodman?

Ok you got me on Elliott over Bowen....maybe, DRob's biggest help was an 80% career FT shooter who choked the game winning FT's of game 1 in 95.

[whottt]

I just want to make sure we are all on the same page about last years loss being Duncan's fault.


We can agree on that right? What the supporting cast does doesn't matter....

[Warlord23]

Yeah, and your argument essentially has been that Robinson might have had more rings if he played in Duncan's era with Duncan's supporting cast. Your argument is, and has been throughout, a hypothetical comparison. Me, I'm sticking to the facts. You don't even have an argument for me to destroy, as it's based on fantasy-projections and speculation.

And regarding the asinine conclusion regarding Manu vs Gervin that you tried to draw from my argument, Gervin and Manu are not even in the same ballpark. The reason we compare Duncan and Robinson is because both were Spurs franchise big men who had similar roles and contributions in their respective eras. Gervin and Manu have no such thing in common. Manu has been a role player in his entire career in the NBA. Gervin wasn't. The difference between their roles and abilities is so vast that rings don't have to be part of the argument. The difference between Duncan and Robinson in terms of role and ability is close enough for rings to be the tie-breaker.

"Amare kicked Duncan's ass".
The irony of that statement is truly brought out when juxtaposed with your comments on my "incapability of grasping the contributions of anyone but a superstar to a title" and "being unobservant", etc.

Like I said, you don't even have a semblance of an argument for me to break down.

[whottt]

Yeah, and your argument essentially has been that Robinson might have had more rings if he played in Duncan's era with Duncan's supporting cast. Your argument is, and has been throughout, a hypothetical comparison. Me, I'm sticking to the facts. You don't even have an argument for me to destroy, as it's based on fantasy-projections and speculation.

And regarding the asinine conclusion regarding Manu vs Gervin that you tried to draw from my argument, Gervin and Manu are not even in the same ballpark. The reason we compare Duncan and Robinson is because both were Spurs franchise big men who had similar roles and contributions in their respective eras. Gervin and Manu have no such thing in common. Manu has been a role player in his entire career in the NBA. Gervin wasn't. The difference between their roles and abilities is so vast that rings don't have to be part of the argument. The difference between Duncan and Robinson in terms of role and ability is close enough for rings to be the tie-breaker.

"Amare kicked Duncan's ass".
The irony of that statement is truly brought out when juxtaposed with your comments on my "incapability of grasping the contributions of anyone but a superstar to a title" and "being unobservant", etc.

Like I said, you don't even have a semblance of an argument for me to break down.


Sure...change your argument and criteria when it suits you.

Championships matter...except...when it's Manu VS Gervin. Then all the regular season stuff matters.

Got it.


And you can't tell the diffence between Tony Parker and Avery Johnson.


My argument is simple...Drob was the best in the league in every pertinent category to a big man....Duncan hasn't been yet. Drob spent his entire career with the Spurs...Duncan hasn't yet. DRob is the career leader in every major category...Duncan isn't.

Drob stayed with this team when it had no chance of winning...Duncan nearly left after winning a title. And would hace if not for DRob.


And finally, Duncan had a better coach and teamates, and anyone that can't see that? Is an idiot who doesn't know shit about basketbll.







All you have to go on is team performance in the post season...to rank an individual.


To which I merely say.....

It must suck to be a basketball fan who can't tell the difference between the 01 Spurs and the 99,03 and 05 Spurs.

And you can't..or you won't.

Obtuseness isn't intelligence..it's just the opposite.

Thank god you aren't a Spurs GM or we would not have a single title.

You can't tell the fucking difference between AJ and Tony Parker.

[whottt]

All I know is Manu = One Gold Medal kicking Duncan's ass for it in the process...

Therefore...Manu>Duncan.

One series....fuck teamates. Result is all that matters.

If Hakeem can do it to Drob then Manu can do it to Duncan.


Notice how my criteria never has to change and your does?

One works consistently, and the other doesn't.

[v2freak]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not? Amare kicking Duncan's ass? Manu kicking Duncan's ass? Hakeem-DRob = Manu-TD comparison?

[whottt]

Um...Amare dropped 37 points per game on Duncan in the 05 WCF.

That''s more than Hakeem dropped on David when David was permanently put in the bitch category.

Manu and Team Argentina did kick Duncan's ass in the 04 Olympics...kicked his ass. And Pop's too.


Call Manu a role player....yeah his role was to buttfuck the coach and best player on his NBA team in front of a world wide audience...

So put that in your trophy case and count it.


You guys don't deserve a player will to give up the spotlight for his team to win.

You don't deserve a player that was willing to do that...because you don't see it, and you don't appreciate it.


Drob deserved a better team, fans and city, than San Antonio.

He deserved media and fans that set the tone, not ones that follow ESPN commercial blurbs to base their entire opinions upon.

He deserved...New York or LA. Not bandwagontonio

[v2freak]

Their whole system is designed to where both teams score a bunch of points. Getting 37 is impressive for sure, but it looks less superhuman when your team scores 120 points. I need to find that article that talked about how Amare doesnt do much without Nash. Or how about considering that the Spurs put Duncan on Amare for a reason, but the Suns didnt put Amare on Duncan?

And yes, the Argentinean national team did get a solid victory over the US. But please don't ignore that Duncan spent very little time guarding Manu 1 on 1, or that Duncan played limited minutes with foul trouble. In no way do I advocate blaming a loss to the officials. I could say a 1000 times that the ANT flat out outplayed the US team. But simple stats like Duncan picking up fouls at 2x the rate as he does in the NBA shouldn't be forgotten either

I understand your argument about DRob though. He absolutely deserved a better team, and it was good to see him go out a champ. But why would you put him in the "bitch" category just because he got outplayed by another top 10 center of all time? The Admiral was nothing short of great in that series as well

[whottt]

Welcome to David Robinson's world...may you handle it as gracefully as he did.




Get off the cross, mutherfucker. Someone else needs the wood. If we think Tim is #1 we hate David? I guess in whott-world we do....:rolleyes





oops

did anyone ever tell you you're angry when you're owned? ;)

[whottt]

Their whole system is designed to where both teams score a bunch of points. Getting 37 is impressive for sure, but it looks less superhuman when your team scores 120 points. I need to find that article that talked about how Amare doesnt do much without Nash. Or how about considering that the Spurs put Duncan on Amare for a reason, but the Suns didnt put Amare on Duncan?

And yes, the Argentinean national team did get a solid victory over the US. But please don't ignore that Duncan spent very little time guarding Manu 1 on 1, or that Duncan played limited minutes with foul trouble. In no way do I advocate blaming a loss to the officials. I could say a 1000 times that the ANT flat out outplayed the US team. But simple stats like Duncan picking up fouls at 2x the rate as he does in the NBA shouldn't be forgotten either



Hey, everyone's got excuses...

Fact: DRob more years with team thn Duncan.
Fact: Bigger and Better career numbers than Duncan
Fact: Bigger part of SA than Duncan.

Fact:
Drob: Statistically the best player in the league in every major category to a bigman. At one point or another during his career. Including some playoffs.

Fact: His best season highs were better...

Fact: is best career highs were better...

Fact: Duncan's had more MVP, ALL NBA D, and ALL STAR teamates than Drob had.

Fact: Drob joins team biggest turnaround in NBA history.
Fact: Drob gets hurt and it's the biggest negative turnaround in NBA history.

Fact Fact Fact Fact Fact.

Fact Duncan's teams never beat any of the ones David's struggled with...like Utah.

So basically Duncan>Drob on the basis of 3 championships. To 2....with an inarguably better supporting cast.

At least when DRob got punked in the Olympics it wasn't by AJ or Vinny.






I understand your argument about DRob though. He absolutely deserved a better team, and it was good to see him go out a champ. But why would you put him in the "bitch" category just because he got outplayed by another top 10 center of all time? The Admiral was nothing short of great in that series as well


Internet Basketball forums much?

I have.

[Trainwreck2100]

Top 30 NBA Spurs: No. 2 - David Robinson

Web Posted: 03/31/2007 08:27 PM CDT


San Antonio Express-News

Thirty years ago the Spurs played their first NBA season after being one of four teams from the American Basketball Association to join the older league. To commemorate this anniversary, on Sundays the Express-News is recognizing our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here is No. 2:

David Robinson, 1989-2003: Robinson was such a great prospect that when the Spurs drafted him in 1987 out of the U.S. Naval Academy, they were willing to wait for him to complete a tour of duty in the Navy before he was able to join the team in 1989.

The wait was worth it, because when Robinson retired in 2003 after 14 seasons, he was the Spurs' all-time leader in games played (987), points (20,790), rebounds (10,497) and blocked shots (2,954).

The 1992 NBA Defensive Player of the Year and the league's Most Valuable Player in 1995, "The Admiral" is one of only 10 players in league history named to 10 All-NBA teams and the only male player to represent the United States in three Olympics.

The left-handed Robinson was the NBA's scoring leader in 1994, its top rebounder in 1991 and its leader in blocked shots in 1992.

The anchor of the team's stifling defense that produced the franchise's first NBA title in 1999, Robinson also is the team's all-time leader in playoff games played (123) and ranks second in playoff points (2,221), rebounds (1,301), field goals made (768) and attempted (1,604), free throws made (684) and attempted (966) and blocks (312).

Robinson is one of only five NBA players to score more than 70 points in a game, his 71 against the Los Angeles Clippers on April 24, 1994 is the Spurs' single-game best by eight points.

Robinson's final game was memorable.

Less than two months shy of his 38th birthday, he had his best game of the Spurs' 2003 playoff run in title-clinching Game 6 of the NBA Finals, grabbing 17 rebounds and scoring 13 points in front of an adoring home crowd at the SBC Center.

"My last game, streamers flying, world champions," Robinson said afterwards.

"How could you write a better script than this, man?"

Now part of the Spurs' ownership group, Robinson remains a community treasure in the Alamo City, active in civic organizations and good works.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA040107.12C.BKNtopspurs.robinson.2a4b1fe.html

[sabar]

Well, James White is a lock for #1

[Trainwreck2100]

was there ever any doubt

[polandprzem]

was there ever any doubt

There was


before he dunked it :dizzy

[exstatic]

Top 30 NBA Spurs: No. 2 - David Robinson

Web Posted: 03/31/2007 08:27 PM CDT


San Antonio Express-News

Thirty years ago the Spurs played their first NBA season after being one of four teams from the American Basketball Association to join the older league. To commemorate this anniversary, on Sundays the Express-News is recognizing our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here is No. 2:

David Robinson, 1989-2003: Robinson was such a great prospect that when the Spurs drafted him in 1987 out of the U.S. Naval Academy, they were willing to wait for him to complete a tour of duty in the Navy before he was able to join the team in 1989.

The wait was worth it, because when Robinson retired in 2003 after 14 seasons, he was the Spurs' all-time leader in games played (987), points (20,790), rebounds (10,497) and blocked shots (2,954).

The 1992 NBA Defensive Player of the Year and the league's Most Valuable Player in 1995, "The Admiral" is one of only 10 players in league history named to 10 All-NBA teams and the only male player to represent the United States in three Olympics.

The left-handed Robinson was the NBA's scoring leader in 1994, its top rebounder in 1991 and its leader in blocked shots in 1992.

The anchor of the team's stifling defense that produced the franchise's first NBA title in 1999, Robinson also is the team's all-time leader in playoff games played (123) and ranks second in playoff points (2,221), rebounds (1,301), field goals made (768) and attempted (1,604), free throws made (684) and attempted (966) and blocks (312).

Robinson is one of only five NBA players to score more than 70 points in a game, his 71 against the Los Angeles Clippers on April 24, 1994 is the Spurs' single-game best by eight points.

Robinson's final game was memorable.

Less than two months shy of his 38th birthday, he had his best game of the Spurs' 2003 playoff run in title-clinching Game 6 of the NBA Finals, grabbing 17 rebounds and scoring 13 points in front of an adoring home crowd at the SBC Center.

"My last game, streamers flying, world champions," Robinson said afterwards.

"How could you write a better script than this, man?"

Now part of the Spurs' ownership group, Robinson remains a community treasure in the Alamo City, active in civic organizations and good works.
And with that, whotttt goes on suicide watch.

[baseline bum]

Man, just a few lines doesn't do David justice. They should have done a full-page spread on him. How do you sum up David Robinson's career in 11 sentences?

[whottt]

And with that, whotttt goes on suicide watch.



LMAO...I predicted this was going to happen. Go back a page or two.


Now you know why SA isn't the media capital of the world and likely never will be...

SA Media = sucks always has.

That's why the SA News Sports Section used to be the worst in the state. Actually...ikt probably still is.


These guys do nothing but copycat the BigMedia line on Spurs and toe the line of the Spurs brass...that's all they've ever done.


These guys have less basketball insight than IceColdBrewski.

[exstatic]

David was at a disadvantage in two ways: Tim's post season numbers are clearly better, and Tim's still playing. If Tim plays out this full contract to 2010, he should just top all of Dave's numbers. If he decides to sign for 3, maybe 4 more years, he'll smash them.

[whottt]

It's going to be funny if Duncan tells the Spurs to go fuck themselves next year and leaves to go play for a big market team that has a better chance of winning a title.


Sheep.

[exstatic]

It's going to be funny if Duncan tells the Spurs to go fuck themselves next year and leaves to go play for a big market team that has a better chance of winning a title.
Like David threatened to do in 2001 with the Knicks?

[whottt]

Like David threatened to do in 2001 with the Knicks?


No...

More like Duncan almost did...you know, Orlando...

[whottt]

And BTW, if the Spurs ask Duncan to take that kind of paycut when he's still the second best player on the team...

Guranteed he'll be gone.



Meanwhile...you were probably one of the ones wishing we'd signed Webber or kept DA. Winnah.

[exstatic]

And BTW, if the Spurs ask Duncan to take that kind of paycut when he's still the second best player on the team...

Guranteed he'll be gone.



Meanwhile...you were probably one of the ones wishing we'd signed Webber or kept DA. Winnah.
They won't ask Tim to do a paycut. Unlike DRob in 2001, he's still in his prime years. If he opts out next summer, it will be to either voluntarily put more $$$ in the '08 FA pot, or to extend his deal to the end of his career.

Webber was probably SA's first choice, and at the time, he was still quite healthy and a prize. Hindsight is 20/20. DA was a putz who signed his own ticket out of town. There were other players available, had SA some caproom. Saint David made sure that was not the case.

[exstatic]

No...

More like Duncan almost did...you know, Orlando...
Duncan didn't threaten anything. He was simply examining his options. He picked his best one. It's still his best one, even today, in terms of competitiveness and total compensation package.

[whottt]

Duncan didn't threaten anything. He was simply examining his options. He picked his best one. It's still his best one, even today, in terms of competitiveness and total compensation package.


Duncan was gone...bucko.

[whottt]

It's still his best one, even today, in terms of competitiveness and total compensation package.


I don't know about competitiveness, ....but get fucking real on that total compensation package.

[exstatic]

I don't know about competitiveness, ....but get fucking real on that total compensation package.
There is an NBA team that can offer him more than SA? Do tell....

[whottt]

There is an NBA team that can offer him more than SA? Do tell....


Ask Elton Brand.

[kobe_bryant]

Brand fucked up big. So did JO, JKIDD.

[whottt]

Ask Lamar Odom too while you are at it.

[Solid D]

BUMP

The original thread for those who had not been following the weekly progress

[Amuseddaysleeper]

They won't ask Tim to do a paycut. Unlike DRob in 2001, he's still in his prime years. If he opts out next summer, it will be to either voluntarily put more $$$ in the '08 FA pot, or to extend his deal to the end of his career.

Webber was probably SA's first choice, and at the time, he was still quite healthy and a prize. Hindsight is 20/20. DA was a putz who signed his own ticket out of town. There were other players available, had SA some caproom. Saint David made sure that was not the case.


:lmao :lmao

[FromWayDowntown]

For those who missed the complete list:

1. Tim Duncan
2. David Robinson
3. George Gervin
4. Manu Ginobili
5. Sean Elliott
6. Tony Parker
7. Larry Kenon
8. Avery Johnson
9. James Silas
10. Alvin Robertson
11. Mike Mitchell
12. Artis Gilmore
13. Johnny Moore
14. Bruce Bowen
15. Malik Rose
16. Terry Cummings
17. Billy Paultz
18. Dennis Rodman
19. Robert Horry
20. Mark Olberding
21. Steve Kerr
22. Vinny Del Negro
23. Mario Elie
24. Gene Banks
25. Mike Gale
26. Chuck Person
27. Coby Dietrick
28. Dave Corzine
29. Willie Anderson
30. Stephen Jackson