Top 30 NBA Spurs (Updated every Sunday)

[Solid D]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA110506.10C.NZ.BKNtop30.spurs.2c2db9d.html

The Top 30 NBA Spurs: Stephen Jackson, Willie Anderson

Web Posted: 11/04/2006 09:23 PM CST

San Antonio Express-News

Thirty years ago the Spurs played their first season in the NBA after being one of four teams from the American Basketball Association to join the older league. To commemorate this anniversary, on Sundays the Express-News will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here are Nos. 29 and 30:

30. Stephen Jackson, 2001-03: Though he played only two seasons with the Spurs, a total of 103 regular-season games, it was Jackson's outstanding play during the team's NBA championship run in 2003 that earned him a spot on this list. The ultra-competitive Jackson, a 6-foot-8 shooting guard, averaged 12.8 points in 24 playoff games during that title run. It was his willingness to take — and make — big shots in big games that most endeared him to Spurs fans and coaches alike. During the 2002-03 season, he averaged 11.8 points and 3.6 rebounds.

29. Willie Anderson, 1988-95: Anderson played seven seasons with the Spurs and averaged 13.2 points and 4.0 rebounds in 451 games. He made an immediate impact after the Spurs made him their No. 1 draft pick in 1988, leading the team in scoring during his rookie season, 1988-89, with an average of 18.6 points per game. He also led the Spurs in scoring in 10 playoff games that season, averaging 20.5 points. The 6-foot-7 shooting guard from the University of Georgia ranks 10th on the Spurs' list of NBA games played.

- Mike Monroe

[Solid D]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/mmonroe/stories/MYSA111206.11C.BKNtop30spurs.299aa24.html

The Top 30 NBA Spurs: 28 Dave Corzine, 27 Coby Dietrick

Web Posted: 11/12/2006 02:04 AM CST

San Antonio Express-News

Thirty years ago the Spurs played their first NBA season after being one of four teams from the American Basketball Association to join the older league. To commemorate this anniversary, on Sundays the Express-News will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here are Nos. 28 and 27:

28. Dave Corzine, 1980-82: A 6-foot-11 center from DePaul, Corzine led the Spurs in rebounding in the two seasons he played for the club before he was included in a trade that brought Artis Gilmore to San Antonio. On teams built around George Gervin's scoring, Corzine averaged 10.5 points and 7.8 rebounds in 1980-81 and 10.1 points and 7.7 rebounds in 1981-82, starting all 82 games both seasons. He elevated his performance in the postseason, too, especially in the 1982 playoffs, when he averaged 13.6 points and 9.4 rebounds as the Spurs advanced to the Western Conference semifinals.

27. Coby Dietrick, 1976-1983: Dietrick was one of the players who helped the Spurs make the transition from the ABA to the NBA. After playing the final three ABA seasons with the Spurs, he played all 82 games in the first NBA season. He also was a solid contributor on the 1977-78 team that came within one game of making it to the NBA Finals. A 6-foot-11 center, he averaged 4.8 points and 4.2 rebounds in the infamous "Fat Lady" series with Washington. Popular in the community, Dietrick was the color commentator on Spurs broadcasts for a number of years after his playing career ended.

[pichichi63]

My predictions

3. Beno Udrih
2. Nick "the quick"
1. Rasho. Nobody forgot him!!!!!

:smokin :smokin

[Solid D]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA111906.10C.BKNtop.spurs.29515b6.html

The Top 30 NBA Spurs: 26. Chuck Person; 25. Mike Gale

Web Posted: 11/18/2006 08:33 PM CST


San Antonio Express-News

Thirty years ago the Spurs played their first NBA season after being one of four teams from the American Basketball Association to join the older league. To commemorate this anniversary, on Sundays the Express-News will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here are Nos. 26 and 25:

26. Chuck Person, 1995-98: "The Rifleman" was a key contributor off the bench on the Spurs' back-to-back division champions in 1995 and 1996, including the 1994-95 team that established a club record for victories (since eclipsed) with 62. One of the most feared 3-point shooters in league history, Person led the team in 3-pointers made in both those seasons, hitting 172 in 1994-95, 190 in 1995-96. He made the 1,000th 3-pointer of his career in a March 14, 1996 game against the Heat. He also was part of a trade in 1999 that brought Steve Kerr, higher on our list of Top 30 NBA Spurs.

25. Mike Gale, 1976-81: With James Silas battling injuries when the Spurs entered the NBA in 1976, Gale assumed a key role as an outstanding point guard and led the club in assists in its first three NBA seasons and was eighth in the league, at 5.8 per game, in 1976-77. An outstanding defender and free-throw shooter, he also led the club in steals for three seasons. He was fourth in the league in 1977-78, with 2.27 per game. He ranks sixth on the all-time Spurs steals list (680) and 10th on the all-time assists list (1,634). He is fifth on the all-time free throw percentage list (82.7 percent).

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Thanks for posting these Solid D. They are interesting, especially for us "world fans". Cheers. :)

I remember Willie and Chuck, but guys like Gale and Dietrick and Corzine were before my time. Always good to learn a little history.

I hope The Big Dog makes the list!

[SenorSpur]

Goo stuff, Solid D.

Can't wait to see the remaining list. Thanks for posting. Keep'em coming.

[Zunni]

Let's cut to the chase. As of the date of this article:
5. Tony Parker
4. Sean Elliott
3. Manu Ginobili
2. David Robinson
1. Tim Duncan

By the time his career is done, Parker would probably rank #3. He's 24, durable, never playing less than 75 games, and is just now coming into his own. I think he has 10 years of good basketball left, and that his scoring will edge up for the next five, and then drift downward, probably averaging out at about 19 ppg. That would put him in the vicinity of 20,000 points.

Oh, and if you think I forgot him

6. George Gervin

Amazing scorer, but suffered from Barkely-Ewing-Malone syndrome...no ring. Only Sean in my top five doesn't have multiple rings.

[spurtime]

I think George Gervin is at least #3, pushing for #2.

[FromWayDowntown]

Let's cut to the chase. As of this article:
5. Tony Parker
4. Sean Elliott
3. Manu Ginobili
2. David Robinson
1. Tim Duncan


duplicate post -- spurtime posted while I was writing.

There's absolutely no way that George Gervin isn't in the top 3 in the history of this franchise.

[spurtime]

duplicate post -- spurtime posted while I was writing.

There's absolutely no way that George Gervin isn't in the top 3 in the history of this franchise.

I had the DRob vs. Gervin discussion on another board. Which one do you think is #2 and which is #3 and why?

[V Man]

Let's cut to the chase. As of the date of this article:
5. Tony Parker
4. Sean Elliott
3. Manu Ginobili
2. David Robinson
1. Tim Duncan

By the time his career is done, Parker would probably rank #3. He's 24, durable, never playing less than 75 games, and is just now coming into his own. I think he has 10 years of good basketball left, and that his scoring will edge up for the next five, and then drift downward, probably averaging out at about 19 ppg. That would put him in the vicinity of 20,000 points.

Oh, and if you think I forgot him

6. George Gervin

Amazing scorer, but suffered from Barkely-Ewing-Malone syndrome...no ring. Only Sean in my top five doesn't have multiple rings.

Several have already said this, and I echo it. Gervin is top 3 period. And as for Parker he is not top five (not mentioning James Silas, Avery Johnson, Mike Mitchell, and A-train, he may not be top ten (hasn't played enough)). He may have 2 rings, but that is in despite of his play in the finals. His first, Speedy played the critical minutes in the four quarter not him. And his second ring, he disappeared after game 1, and Manu and Tim (with help from Horry) carried the team to the championship.

[spurtime]

26,595 career points. I don't see how you can put Sean, TP, and Manu in his realm.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gervige01.html

[FromWayDowntown]

Oh, and if you think I forgot him

6. George Gervin

Nice late edit after being called out for omitting Gervin from your list altogether.


Amazing scorer, but suffered from Barkely-Ewing-Malone syndrome...no ring. Only Sean in my top five doesn't have multiple rings.

George Gervin is in the Basketball Hall of Fame. Sean Elliott will not be; and in the moment, neither will Tony Parker. Manu Ginobili might reach the Hall of Fame, but not based solely on his accomplishments with the Spurs. That alone says to me that your opinion is largely indefensible.

But you rely on rings and mulitiple rings. Well, let's examine some facts: I am as big a Sean Elliott fan as you'll ever meet, but even I know that Sean had the exceedingly good fortune to be a contemporary of David Robinson and Tim Duncan, a fact that put him in a position to make a difference in the Spurs first title run. The same is true of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. Had the Spurs not had David Robinson and/or Tim Duncan, I'm not sure that Sean Elliott, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili would have any rings as Spurs.

By contrast, George Gervin was the undisputed superstar of a Spurs team that reached 5 conference finals between 1979 and 1983. That those Spurs teams couldn't overcome the Magic-Kareem-Worthy Lakers in 1982 and 1983 and lost their first conference final in a tough 7-game series against Washington in 1979 doesn't diminish how great Gervin was.

And he was truly, truly exceptional -- better than all but perhaps 2 Spurs ever.

[spurtime]

Nice late edit after being called out for omitting Gervin from your list altogether.


I noticed the same thing...lol.

[polandprzem]

Who is George Gervin?

[Texas_Ranger]

Thanks for posting Solid D.

I think it will be like that:
1.Tim Duncan
2.David Robinson
3.George Gervin
4.Sean Elliott
5.Manu Ginobili
6.Tony Parker

[polandprzem]

Thanks for posting Solid D.

I think it will be like that:
1.Tim Duncan
2.David Robinson
3.George Gervin
4.Sean Elliott
5.Manu Ginobili
6.Tony Parker

No surprise

I wonder where Artis will be on that list.
His best days were in ABA ...

[spurtime]

1. Tim Duncan
2a. George Gervin
2b. DRob
4. Sean Elliott
5. Mike Mitchell
6. Johnny Moore
7. James Silas
8. Manu
9. TP
10. Larry Kenon

[samikeyp]

I think George Gervin is at least #3, pushing for #2.

I would agree. I think it will be:

3. Ice
2. DRob
1. Tim

Honestly as long as they are in the top 3....I don't care about the order. :)


Who is George Gervin?

The face of the franchise prior to 1989 and, oh yeah, a hall of famer.

Google the name.

[boutons_]

"And his second ring, he disappeared after game 1, and Manu and Tim (with help from Horry) carried the team to the championship."

In 05 Finals, Tony was about the only Spur who showed up in blowout games 3 and 4.

Tony also played the stopper defense on Flip's last second shot to preserve Rob's heroics.

[polandprzem]

The face of the franchise prior to 1989 and, oh yeah, a hall of famer.

Google the name.

:lmao

[v2freak]

Just goes to show how the Spurs have picked up a lot of fans semi-recently.

[Zunni]

Just goes to show how the Spurs have picked up a lot of fans semi-recently.
I've seen games in Hemisfair, although not Gervin games. Hey make your own lists, as I see some of you have. I admitted Gervin's prolific scoring, but that was also another era, a much higher scoring one. Gervin was also (self-admittedly) a one way player, much like Steve Nash is today, and I HATE the fact that Nash won one MVP, let alone B2B. I'm also not going to penalize players like Manu, Tony, and Sean for being second, or even third bananas on deep championship teams. If SJax can make the top 30 for 100 games and one playoff run, I can put Manu, Tony, and Sean in the top 5. Don't get your panties in a wad. I'm sure the E-N will have Gervin #3.

[baseline bum]

No way any of those guys is ahead of Stephen Jackson. Jack played like an all-star in that Phoenix series, and was the catalyst behind the two monster comebacks to win the WCF and then the NBA Finals. Jack was so good in pressure situations that I was shocked when he missed the gamewinner in game 2 of the 2003 Finals. Anyone remember the gamewinner he hit to protect the Spurs win streak over Boston? Or how about the three at the buzzer to send it to OT vs Minnesota, the night after the Spurs had just gone into Dallas and beaten them in OT? After the years of Steve Smith, Danny Ferry, Vinny Del Negro, and so on botching this team's postseason three-point shooting, it was awesome to have a guy who lived for hitting the big shot.

[Zunni]

1. Tim Duncan
2a. George Gervin
2b. DRob
4. Sean Elliott
5. Mike Mitchell
6. Johnny Moore
7. James Silas
8. Manu
9. TP
10. Larry Kenon
People are going to pick at you for not having AJ on the list, but I respect the inclusion of Kenon, who is probably the best Spur most people don't know about. Si was pretty broken by injuries by the time the NBA became a San Antonio fact, which is why many people will flip him out and AJ in to the top 10.

Good list. Not what I would do, but then it's your list. :clap

[Zunni]

No way any of those guys is ahead of Stephen Jackson. Jack played like an all-star in that Phoenix series, and was the catalyst behind the two monster comebacks to win the WCF and then the NBA Finals. Jack was so good in pressure situations that I was shocked when he missed the gamewinner in game 2 of the 2003 Finals. Anyone remember the gamewinner he hit to protect the Spurs win streak over Boston? Or how about the three at the buzzer to send it to OT vs Minnesota, the night after the Spurs had just gone into Dallas and beaten them in OT? After the years of Steve Smith, Danny Ferry, Vinny Del Negro, and so on botching this team's postseason three-point shooting, it was awesome to have a guy who lived for hitting the big shot.
Notice he hasn't done shit for Indiana in the playoffs? He played very well off of Tim Duncan for one playoff run, but then so did Jaren Fucking Jackson, and I may puke if he makes this list at all...

[spurtime]

People are going to pick at you for not having AJ on the list, but I respect the inclusion of Kenon, who is probably the best Spur most people don't know about. Si was pretty broken by injuries by the time the NBA became a San Antonio fact, which is why many people will flip him out and AJ in to the top 10.

Good list. Not what I would do, but then it's your list. :clap

Yeah...AJ, Alvin Robertson, and Terry Cummings were tough to leave off.

Alot of people seem to forget just how good Mike Mitchell was.

[whottt]

Uh...only two players in NBA history have won more scoring titles than Gervin...and one of them credits Gervin with teaching him how to win scoring titles.

Their names are Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain.

Zunni...that was pretty much the worst take in the history of Spurs Talk.

Not only is Gervin definitely in the top 3 Spurs of all time....he's arguably in the top 3 shooting guards of all time....ahh fuck it...he's arguably in the top 2 shooting guards of all time.


You could even argue that he was greater at his position than Robinson and Duncan have been at theirs.

[baseline bum]

Ice not in the top 5? Wait, so Sean Elliott, Manu, and TP are all better than Barkley and Ewing too?

Seriously, have you ever seen Ice play? He's the best midrange shooter I've ever seen. Better than Bird from 12-18 feet out. He was also completely unguardable in transition. Ice was a one of a kind player that the NBA might never see again.

[slayermin]

Alot of people seem to forget just how good Mike Mitchell was.

I remember Mike Mitchell. He was a bad azz. I don't know if this is way off base but I always thought he was similar to Mark Aguirre.

[spurtime]

I remember Mike Mitchell. He was a bad azz. I don't know if this is way off base but I always thought he was similar to Mark Aguirre.

They were similar sized SFs with a great mid-range games, so yeah, I can definitely see the similarity.

[Zunni]

Zunni...that was pretty much the worst take in the history of Spurs Talk.
Sorry, you hold that honor with Coyote > DRob. :clap

I know Ice scored. I've acknowledged that. What I have yet to see is someone else acknowledge that that's pretty much all he fucking did, and that points were cheap back then when final scores were frequently 135-128.

[whottt]

Sorry, you hold that honor with Coyote > DRob. :clap


So obviously...you weren't here when I "said" that(never said it)...just like you weren't watching the Spurs when Gervin played.

Got it.

Would you mind giving yourself a listerine enema so it won't stink so bad when you talk out of your ass?


I know Ice scored. I've acknowledged that.





What I have yet to see is someone else acknowledge that that's pretty much all he fucking did, and that points were cheap back then when final scores were frequently 135-128.



Um...if it's so easy to lead the league in scoring 4 times then how come only 3 other players in NBA history have done it? All of them spending their entire pro careers in the NBA...unlike Gervin, who spent 4 years in the ABA.

And Gervin didn't just score....he scored the best, or among the best, in the league while shooting over 50% for his entire career...as a 2 guard.

I want you to find me a list of 2 guards that scored more than Gervin shooting over 50% for their career...

I assume with your incredible knowledge of NBA history that appears to extend as far back as 3 months ago...it won't take you long at all.

[whottt]

Here's a list of the 50 greatest NBA players...

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Nate Archibald

Paul Arizin

Charles Barkley

Rick Barry

Elgin Baylor

Dave Bing

Larry Bird

Wilt Chamberlain

Bob Cousy

Dave Cowens

Billy Cunningham

Dave DeBusschere

Clyde Drexler

Julius Erving

Patrick Ewing

Walt Frazier

George Gervin

Hal Greer

John Havlicek

Elvin Hayes

Magic Johnson

Sam Jones

Michael Jordan

Jerry Lucas

Karl Malone
Moses Malone

Pete Maravich

Kevin McHale

George Mikan

Earl Monroe

Hakeem Olajuwon

Shaquille O'Neal

Robert Parish

Bob Pettit

Scottie Pippen

Willis Reed

Oscar Robertson

David Robinson

Bill Russell

Dolph Schayes

Bill Sharman

John Stockton

Isiah Thomas

Nate Thurmond

Wes Unseld

Bill Walton

Jerry West

Lenny Wilkens

James Worthy


Obviously these idiots didn't consult with the magnificent intellect known as Zunni before compiling this list, as evidenced by their boneheaded inclusion of George Gervin at the expense of Sean Elliott and others on Zunni's all time greats list like Uwe Blab and Zarko Paspalj.

[whottt]

I want you to find me a list of 2 guards that scored more than Gervin shooting over 50% for their career...

I assume with your incredible knowledge of NBA history that appears to extend as far back as 3 months ago...it won't take you long at all.

It's already taken longer than I expected...what with your vast 3 month old catalog of NBA knowledge...

Allow me to make the list for you...

It begins with:
George Gervin...

And it ends with:
George Gervin

And that's it.

So basically, you just labeled the most efficient scoring guard in NBA history as doing nothing but scoring...qualifying you on my list of all time SpursTalk idiots.

Gervin was the most efficient scoring guard in NBA history...regardless of era and how easy the points were to come by in it.

Now apologize to George, then go put some alcohol on that bleeding ass you just got, and then please go fix you fucking list so it no longer embarrases Spursfans and SpursTalk. You douchebag.

[Zunni]

Who gives a fuck about 50%? There are PLENTY of guards who outscored him that missed your arbitrary criteria, including MJ, so I threw it out. I'm also not going to limit myself to guards, since Ice converted partway through his career. I'll use any damn swing player I want.

Jordan 32292 49%
Big O 26719 48.5%
Wilkins 26668 46%
English 25613 51%
Miller 25279 47%
Logo 25172 47%
Dantley 23177 54%
Drexler 22192 47%

Ice was 27th best all time at the only thing he did. Laudable, but not deifiable.

[spurtime]

If you include his ABA stats he's much higher up the list...Between Alex English and Dominique.

[The Truth #6]

No way any of those guys is ahead of Stephen Jackson. Jack played like an all-star in that Phoenix series, and was the catalyst behind the two monster comebacks to win the WCF and then the NBA Finals. Jack was so good in pressure situations that I was shocked when he missed the gamewinner in game 2 of the 2003 Finals. Anyone remember the gamewinner he hit to protect the Spurs win streak over Boston? Or how about the three at the buzzer to send it to OT vs Minnesota, the night after the Spurs had just gone into Dallas and beaten them in OT? After the years of Steve Smith, Danny Ferry, Vinny Del Negro, and so on botching this team's postseason three-point shooting, it was awesome to have a guy who lived for hitting the big shot.

I wish he had stayed. Yeah, he's had a lot of problems since he left but he's not the first player to fade after scoring a big contract. I'd like to think Pop's influence would have kept him in check. We probably would have repeated in 04 if he was still around.

I wouldn't hold his later problems against him. We already know Steve Kerr is going to be higher up on this list. Other than that one game versus Dallas, I can't remember what else he did. Not bashing him, just comparing.

[Zunni]

If you include his ABA stats he's much higher up the list...Between Alex English and Dominique.
He probably would have been higher (no pun intended) if he hadn't fallen under cocaine's spell his last few years, too.

[FromWayDowntown]

My point remains. It would be one thing if Gervin's teams were constant playoff flameouts who never went a few rounds deep. They weren't, largely because Gervin made the difference for them. Did the reach the Finals? No. But they still played in 3 conference finals in a 5-year period -- a feat that the Spurs' franchise has only accomplished one other time (1999-2001-2003) with 2 exits at the hands of a Lakers team full of Hall-of-Famers.

Curious how those points haven't been addressed at all.

Count rings if you want as a basis to determine if a sidekick is a better player than a star; I'll take the Iceman's resume and the worldwide recognition of his career as one of the greatest ever as a solid endorsement of my opinion, which is decidedly different than yours.

[Zunni]

My point remains. It would be one thing if Gervin's teams were constant playoff flameouts who never went a few rounds deep. They weren't, largely because Gervin made the difference for them. Did the reach the Finals? No. But they still played in 3 conference finals in a 5-year period -- a feat that the Spurs' franchise has only accomplished one other time (1999-2001-2003) with 2 exits at the hands of a Lakers team full of Hall-of-Famers.

Curious how those points haven't been addressed at all.

Count rings if you want as a basis to determine if a sidekick is a better player than a star; I'll take the Iceman's resume and the worldwide recognition of his career as one of the greatest ever as a solid endorsement of my opinion, which is decidedly different than yours.
Noted. However, conference finals used to be the second round. If you go by that, Spurs are an annual fixture.

[Spurminator]

Except that you didn't just have to beat 7 and 8 seeds to make it to the "second" round in those years.

[spurtime]

I think the argument that Gervin didn't play defense has to be tempered by the fact that in general there was less defense in the league. Refs called the games much tighter and we didn't want him to get into foul trouble.

He actually did a pretty good job defending the passing lanes and on help defense, averaging about 1.5 stls/gm and 1.5 blks/gm for most of his career.

[spurtime]

Noted. However, conference finals used to be the second round. If you go by that, Spurs are an annual fixture.

Only because less teams made the playoffs and if your record was good enough you got a first round bye.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

No way any of those guys is ahead of Stephen Jackson. Jack played like an all-star in that Phoenix series, and was the catalyst behind the two monster comebacks to win the WCF and then the NBA Finals. Jack was so good in pressure situations that I was shocked when he missed the gamewinner in game 2 of the 2003 Finals. Anyone remember the gamewinner he hit to protect the Spurs win streak over Boston? Or how about the three at the buzzer to send it to OT vs Minnesota, the night after the Spurs had just gone into Dallas and beaten them in OT? After the years of Steve Smith, Danny Ferry, Vinny Del Negro, and so on botching this team's postseason three-point shooting, it was awesome to have a guy who lived for hitting the big shot.

Very true.

That was my fourth live Spurs game, and man did the roof lift when he hit that! We lost the game, but it was worth it for Jax's clutch 3!

[Zunni]

Except that you didn't just have to beat 7 and 8 seeds to make it to the "second" round in those years.
Except that there were no 7 and 8 seeds.

Pssst. The year they almost made it to the Finals...they almost choked it away the round before against Philly, going up 3-1 but backsliding to a game 7. They got lucky one time, but their luck ran out. Those Spurs teams remind me of present day Dallas a Phoenix teams; lots of numbers and excitement, but just a playoff tease and a series extender.

[whottt]

Who gives a fuck about 50%? There are PLENTY of guards who outscored him that missed your arbitrary criteria, including MJ, so I threw it out. I'm also not going to limit myself to guards, since Ice converted partway through his career. I'll use any damn swing player I want.

Jordan 32292 49%
Big O 26719 48.5%
Wilkins 26668 46%
English 25613 51%
Miller 25279 47%
Logo 25172 47%
Dantley 23177 54%
Drexler 22192 47%

Ice was 27th best all time at the only thing he did. Laudable, but not deifiable.

How the fuck is 50% arbitrary? It's a standard of shooting excellence in any era. And furthermore...Gervin's not the 27th best at the only thing he did...he's the 9th best at scoring per game in NBA history....and likely to move back up that list once Shaq and AI tail off.

He als was decent at rebounds, steals and he was an exceptional shotblocker at his position...

On top of that...I repreat...it it's so easy to win fucking scoring titles, then how come only 3 other players have won as many?

And if it's so easy to do it at 50%....then how come it was just as uncommon in his era as it is now?

Additionally...what the hell did Manu, Parker and Elliott do that was so much above average for their position?


I love all those guys but I give serious thought to ranking Bruce ahead of Elliott on the all time Spurs SF list.


I could spend hours deconstructing all the wrong in the simple statement you just made....however, there is a decent football game on right now...I will BBL to finish up with you.

If I were you though...I'd just admit you were wrong, horribly wrong, quite possibly more wrong then anyone has been about anything in the entire history of the Universe...that's what I'd do if I were you. But then again...if I were you, I wouldn't be that wrong in the first place.


Best to get out of that hole while you still can....is it really worth not being taken seriously as a poster on this board just to futiley attempt to defend a lousy take that everyone sees as a clear case of talking out of your ass from a position of ignorance? Reconsider before it's too late.

[Zunni]

I'm not worreid about your opinion, whott. The 50% IS arbitrary. MJ didn't hit it. Are you seriously saying Ice > MJ? That's what you seem to be implying by staying on that foolish 50%

OMG, did you know that Perdue has a better playoff FG% than Tim OR David? All hail Will!!!

[lefty]

Thanks for that list D!!!! very informative

I remember Chuck and Willie ; Willie could have been an all-star if it wasn't for the injuries
I didn't know Corzine played for the Spurs ; I remember him playing a few seasons with a young Michael Jordan (well, by watching old footage) in Chicago

[whottt]

I'm not worreid about your opinion, whott.

What about the opinions of the other 6 1/2 billion on this planet?

I figure that other than Parker, Manu and Ellliott's mothers...yours is unique.



The 50% IS arbitrary. MJ didn't hit it.


So because MJ didn't hit it it's arbitrary?

50% means nothing because MJ didn't do it?


Are you seriously saying Ice > MJ?

In terms of career FG% while being primarily a scorer?

Why yes, I am...and I can prove it.


That's what you seem to be implying by staying on that foolish 50%

There's nothing foolish about 50% FG%...it's long been the demarcation point between very good and excellent. It's not the only thing...but being over it while being an elite scorer certainly qualifies a player as one of the greatest scorers in NBA history...like top 5 at worst....far and above being, merely a scorer and product of his era, as you so ignorantly tried to shoehorn and trivialize.


OMG, did you know that Perdue has a better playoff FG% than Tim OR David? All hail Will!!!



You are the one with the tard like argument using playoff success to rate players over others...not I.

You mock your own stupidity...not mine.

[Zunni]

You are the one with the tard like argument using playoff success to rate players over others...not I.
:lol:rollin Because the playoffs don't matter? Fine.

Did you know that Perdue has a better regular season FG% than Tim or David? All hail Will!!!
:lol:rollin

[FromWayDowntown]

Noted. However, conference finals used to be the second round. If you go by that, Spurs are an annual fixture.

Says you. The argument that makes far more sense is that the playoffs during Gervin's era were fairly select company and advancing even one round deep truly meant something. Regardless, the Gervin era Spurs were among the last 4 NBA teams playing in multiple seasons; George Gervin was an extremely significant reason for that happening -- far more significant than anything than the contributions that Manu Ginobili, Sean Elliott, or Tony Parker offered to their respective teams. Gervin was the Tim Duncan/David Robinson of those teams; Parker, Ginobili, and Elliott are perhaps better, more successful versions of Mike Mitchell and Johnny Moore, in that context.

Gervin as #6 in the history of this franchise is patently ridiculous. There is no reasonable rationale to support that sort of ranking for the Iceman. None. Not even the, "well I never saw the Iceman" explanation -- there is plenty of video available and certainly little doubt beyond this board that George Gervin was a substantially better basketball player than Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker are or than Sean Elliott was. I suspect that even those guys would tell you that.

I'm officially done with that issue.

[whottt]

Did you know that Perdue has a better regular season FG% than Tim or David? All hail Will!!!
:lol:rollin


False...he doesn't have a better regualar season FG% than Drob...


You are also overlooking the 15ppg difference in scoring totals...as opposed to the less than 4 difference between Gervin and Jordan.

[Zunni]

False...he doesn't have a better regualar season FG% than Drob...


You are also overlooking the 15ppg difference in scoring totals...as opposed to the less than 4 difference between Gervin and Jordan.
Perdue .553
DRob .518. Look it up.

You also don't seem to have a problem overlooking several THOUSAND points for your precious 50%, Quixote, about 10,000 in Jordan's case.

[Zunni]

I'm also seeing a DISTINCT lack of a whott list. Are you going to lay it out there, or are you just the trick ass bitch, picking at other peoples lists, that you appear to be?

[Zunni]

(waits patiently for whott's all time Spurs FG% list)

[Zunni]

1. Coyote
2. DRob
3. Gervin

I admit, I'm having to extrapolate your Gervin/Drob ranking, but since David has more points and a higher FG%, this is my projection of your top 3.

[spurtime]

This argument is on the ridiculous side. No rational argument can be made that Gervin is any lower than #3 all time for the Spurs. If you don't like th fg% argument then you also shouldn't look at an "arbitrary" number like titles. Neither Sean, nor Manu, nor TP could have won a title as the centerpiece of the teams that Gervin played on.

[whottt]

Perdue .553
DRob .518. Look it up.


Perdue's regular season FG% is 515%.




You also don't seem to have a problem overlooking several THOUSAND points for your precious 50%, Quixote, about 10,000 in Jordan's case.

Ok...fair enough I am overlooking about 7 thousand points or 10 thousand if you want to discount Gervin's ABA career...

You are overlooking about 17 thousand points...not to mention @ 15ppg.

[Zunni]

The devil is in the details. As a Spur:

Perdue .553
DRob .518

[whottt]

This argument is on the ridiculous side. No rational argument can be made that Gervin is any lower than #3 all time for the Spurs. If you don't like th fg% argument then you also shouldn't look at an "arbitrary" number like titles. Neither Sean, nor Manu, nor TP could have won a title as the centerpiece of the teams that Gervin played on.


This is true....

Zunni's argument is without a doubt one of the stupidest in the history of the Universe...

However, I am not sure if we aren't just as stupid for attempting to argue with him about it...

I mean there a certain kinds of stupid that just can't be fixed...and Zunni is definitely afflicted with that kind.


Gervin < Manu, Parker and Elliott(©timvp)....

What an idiot.

[Solid D]

http://www.remembertheaba.com/OnlyintheABAMaterial/KenonGaleAfros.JPG

For those of you who don't know what some of the old-school Spurs looked like, this photo that samikeyp has as his sig is Mike "Sugar" Gale and Larry Kenon. Gale is number 25 on the Express-News Top 30. Larry "Special K"/"Mister K" Kenon has been a top 10 Spur over the years. It will be interesting to see how he fares on this list.

Is that a puca shell chain on "Sugar"? :lol

[spurtime]

Larry "Special K"/"Mister K" Kenon has been a top 10 Spur over the years. It will be interesting to see how he fares on this list.

He's #10 on mine

[whottt]

The devil is in the details. As a Spur:

Perdue .553
DRob .518


Hmmm....



Did you know that Perdue has a better regular season FG% than Tim or David?


Note the complete absence of the phrase, "As a Spur" in the original statement...


In that case, allow me to correct my Gervin argument...


As a Spur, Gervin scored 25k more points than Jordan and averaged over 26 more PPG all the while shooting over 50% better and averaging more assists, steals, to's blocks, ft's, fta, 3p and 3pa not to mention cumulative totals.

[Zunni]

This argument is on the ridiculous side. No rational argument can be made that Gervin is any lower than #3 all time for the Spurs. If you don't like th fg% argument then you also shouldn't look at an "arbitrary" number like titles. Neither Sean, nor Manu, nor TP could have won a title as the centerpiece of the teams that Gervin played on.
I'll admit to giving a heavy weighing to a starting or rotation role on multiple championship or deep playoff teams if you'll admit that there WERE no criteria given for the list.

AS for Sean, Manu and TP back in the day...championships? Maybe, maybe not, but their numbers sure as hell would have been a LOT gaudier, which seems to be most poster's currency for position on this list.

[whottt]

Gervin's numbers were gaudy even back in the day...not just by todays standards....and they went hand in hand with winning as the franchise centerpiece...a franchise that is just about to become the second winningest pct of all time...


Actually...Gervin's numbers were gaudier then than they are now...

When Gervin retired, only Wilt had won more scoring titles and no freaking guard had even come close....

And his career totals were top 5 or 6...

[spurtime]

I'll admit to giving a heavy weighing to a starting or rotation role on multiple championship or deep playoff teams if you'll admit that there WERE no criteria given for the list.

AS for Sean, Manu and TP back in the day...championships? Maybe, maybe not, but their numbers sure as hell would have been a LOT gaudier, which seems to be most poster's currency for position on this list.

No criteria other than the blend of criteria that is always used in subjective lists like these, some are objectively verifiable, some aren't...Major statistical categories, longevity, and team success/the player's role in promoting that success. I don't see how you can look at all those things and come up with a formula that puts Gervin at below #3 on the list, unless you give heavy weight to titles and ignore whether or not the person was personally the catalyst for the championship.

[Zunni]

Hmmm....




Note the complete absence of the phrase, "As a Spur" in the original statement...


In that case, allow me to correct my Gervin argument...


As a Spur, Gervin scored 25k more points than Jordan and averaged over 26 more PPG all the while shooting over 50% better and averaging more assists, steals, to's blocks, ft's, fta, 3p and 3pa not to mention cumulative totals.
That fucking Jordan scrub.

Here's a link to the site I used. I've actually never run across a stat searcher that would break out a player's stats by the time with one team.

stat searcher (http://www.databasebasketball.com/leaders/leadersearch.htm)

[Zunni]

No criteria other than the blend of criteria that is always used in subjective lists like these, some are objectively verifiable, some aren't...Major statistical categories, longevity, and team success/the player's role in promoting that success. I don't see how you can look at all those things and come up with a formula that puts Gervin at below #3 on the list, unless you give heavy weight to titles and ignore whether or not the person was personally the catalyst for the championship.

What is a catalyst? Is it just the primary player? Because we had Tim in 2001 and got our asses handed to us. Parker comes along the next year and we take a game from LA. With Parker AND Ginobili in '03, we dethrone the hated Lakers. Was it just Tim, or was it a much needed infusion of youth and athleticism?

[whottt]

And with Parker and Manu in tow in 2004 we again got our asses handed to us...

With Parker and Manu in 06 we lost in 7 to the biggest collection of pussies to ever come out of the Western Conference...

What's your point?

It's not like Parker and Manu prevent us from losing. DO they contribute? Of course....

Parker is the best PG in team history, and IMO, Manu is better than Parker to this point...however, Manu's has got some stiff competition at the 2 guard spot...not only does he have to contend with Gervin...but Alvin Robertson as well...I go with Manu over Alvin...but not because of talent, just because Manu isn't a headcase....

[spurtime]

Tim was the catalyst for all 3 titles. You can argue that Manu did better at some points in the '05 title run, but we don't win any of those titles without Timmy. I think Manu's playoff performances do add points in his favor over and above his stats, but nowhere near Gervin.

[Jimcs50]

What idiot does not put Ice as 3rd best Spur all time????



Had he started his career in the NBA, his scoring in points would place him in top 5 all time.

[Zunni]

Tim was the catalyst for all 3 titles. You can argue that Manu did better at some points in the '05 title run, but we don't win any of those titles without Timmy. I think Manu's playoff performances do add points in his favor over and above his stats, but nowhere near Gervin.
...and I think that's what it comes down to.

[Zunni]

What idiot does not put Ice as 3rd best Spur all time????



Had he started his career in the NBA, his scoring in points would place him in top 5 all time.
What idiot loans money to someone from an internet board?

[spurtime]

...and I think that's what it comes down to.

Gervin averaged 27 ppg for his career in the playoffs. He regularly had playoff performances that Manu has had a handful of times.

[FromWayDowntown]

Gervin averaged 27 ppg for his career in the playoffs. He regularly had playoff performances that Manu has had a handful of times.

Different era -- had Manu played back then, he would have undoubtedly averaged 32 ppg in the playoffs and would have led the Spurs over the Lakers at least one time. Same is clearly true of Sean Elliott. Who can dispute that?

[spurtime]

Different era -- had Manu played back then, he would have undoubtedly averaged 32 ppg in the playoffs and would have led the Spurs over the Lakers at least one time. Same is clearly true of Sean Elliott. Who can dispute that?

No one in present company obviously...

[baseline bum]

I wish he had stayed. Yeah, he's had a lot of problems since he left but he's not the first player to fade after scoring a big contract. I'd like to think Pop's influence would have kept him in check. We probably would have repeated in 04 if he was still around.

I wouldn't hold his later problems against him. We already know Steve Kerr is going to be higher up on this list. Other than that one game versus Dallas, I can't remember what else he did. Not bashing him, just comparing.

To be fair, Kerr was a hell of a backup point in the 2002-03 season, which Speedy missed almost all of. He was a very reliable backup, and he and Tim ran the pick and roll beautifully. I remember one game in Memphis that year when the Grizz looked so lost trying to decide whether to show on Kerr or stop Tim from rolling to the basket. I remember they ran that play to get Kerr open to hit the shot that sent it to OT, before Tim hit the gamewinner at the buzzer.

Kerr was a very popular Spurs player. In 1999, if you listened to the postgame show on WOAI after any game there would be at least a couple of people calling to ask why Kerr wasn't playing more. Those four threes in a row in game 6 are something that NBA fans outside of San Antonio know well.

[Zunni]

Gervin averaged 27 ppg for his career in the playoffs. He regularly had playoff performances that Manu has had a handful of times.
It was a different league. It's like baseball. You have to compare eras.

Why not just list the top 10 scorers per game, 100 games minimum? Points seem to do it all for most of you...

[Zunni]

Here you go. No Silas? Tough shit. It's about points.

1. David Robinson 987 34269 20790 7365 14221 .518 6035 8201 .736 25 100 .250 3083 7414 10497 2441 1387 2954 2417 2836
2. George Gervin (H) 709 24471 19383 7526 14647 .514 4258 5061 .841 73 240 .304 1108 2284 3392 2070 892 647 1976 2121
3. Tim Duncan 666 25245 14689 5615 11123 .505 3436 5016 .685 23 113 .204 2141 5879 8020 2092 529 1650 1928 1833
4. Mike Mitchell 488 15992 9799 4152 8429 .493 1480 1888 .784 15 67 .224 920 1763 2683 679 319 227 796 1262
5. Sean Elliott 669 22093 9659 3492 7499 .466 2112 2643 .799 563 1485 .379 751 2190 2941 1700 522 257 1199 1452
6. Larry Kenon 318 11550 6733 2799 5678 .493 1134 1373 .826 1 9 .111 1045 2172 3217 1063 547 121 811 783
7. Avery Johnson 644 20009 6486 2700 5544 .487 1064 1500 .709 22 137 .161 262 1047 1309 4474 713 121 1262 1196
8. Alvin Robertson 389 12525 6285 2570 5327 .482 1084 1438 .754 61 228 .268 808 1279 2087 2094 1128 204 1148 1336
9. Artis Gilmore 380 12387 6127 2208 3562 .620 1711 2370 .722 0 12 .000 1094 2577 3671 579 194 700 1008 1282
10. Willie Anderson 451 13611 5946 2487 5228 .476 915 1170 .782 57 233 .245 487 1307 1794 1874 505 279 1001 1234

[spurtime]

It was a different league. It's like baseball. You have to compare eras.

Why not just list the top 10 scorers per game, 100 games minimum? Points seem to do it all for most of you...

There was about 15% scoring deflation from that era until today. Even if you take that into account, Gervin had gaudy numbers. Gervin also averaged 6 rebs and 4 asts to go along with 1.5 stls and 1.5 blks. Gervin's scoring was his best attribute, but certainly not his only attribute.

[spurtime]

Here you go. No Silas? Tough shit. It's about points.

1. David Robinson 987 34269 20790 7365 14221 .518 6035 8201 .736 25 100 .250 3083 7414 10497 2441 1387 2954 2417 2836
2. George Gervin (H) 709 24471 19383 7526 14647 .514 4258 5061 .841 73 240 .304 1108 2284 3392 2070 892 647 1976 2121
3. Tim Duncan 666 25245 14689 5615 11123 .505 3436 5016 .685 23 113 .204 2141 5879 8020 2092 529 1650 1928 1833
4. Mike Mitchell 488 15992 9799 4152 8429 .493 1480 1888 .784 15 67 .224 920 1763 2683 679 319 227 796 1262
5. Sean Elliott 669 22093 9659 3492 7499 .466 2112 2643 .799 563 1485 .379 751 2190 2941 1700 522 257 1199 1452
6. Larry Kenon 318 11550 6733 2799 5678 .493 1134 1373 .826 1 9 .111 1045 2172 3217 1063 547 121 811 783
7. Avery Johnson 644 20009 6486 2700 5544 .487 1064 1500 .709 22 137 .161 262 1047 1309 4474 713 121 1262 1196
8. Alvin Robertson 389 12525 6285 2570 5327 .482 1084 1438 .754 61 228 .268 808 1279 2087 2094 1128 204 1148 1336
9. Artis Gilmore 380 12387 6127 2208 3562 .620 1711 2370 .722 0 12 .000 1094 2577 3671 579 194 700 1008 1282
10. Willie Anderson 451 13611 5946 2487 5228 .476 915 1170 .782 57 233 .245 487 1307 1794 1874 505 279 1001 1234

I never said it was all about points...I said it was the major statistical categories, longevity, postseason success/the players contribution to that success. Don't see why you have to make such a straw man argument. I listed Johnny Moore because he was the best assist guy the Spurs ever had (not overall but in the time he played) and for about 3-4 seasons was one of the best PGs in the league.

[spurtime]

Here's a nice Gervin fact that cuts across generations...5 straight 1st team All-NBA selections 1978-1982.

[whottt]

When Gervin retired he had the second most blocks by a guard in NBA history....

[whottt]

There's only one player I would pay to see in todays game, George Gervin - Jerry West

[whottt]

George told me he did it by trying to score 4 baskets per quarter - Michael Jordan on how Gervin taught him to win scoring titles

[whottt]

I can't believe this is even a debate...

Zunni...you're a tool if you think Gervin was merely a run of the mill scorer...

Scoring points is not that big of a deal, true...although you will find most of the greatest players in NBA history had that particular skill in abundance...


Winning multiple scoring titles shooting over 50% at the 2 guard position? That's fucking noteworthy...and extremely uncommon, and it's a far fucking cry from merely being a scorer, that's being "the scorer", prior to Jordan, that's remaining "the other scorer", aside from Jordan, to this day.

Just stop it.

[Nero]

I wonder where Rodman will end up on this list.

[spurtime]

I wonder where Rodman will end up on this list.

Somewhere between 15-17 is my guess...

[Jimcs50]

What idiot loans money to someone from an internet board?

an idiot who does not worry if he gets the 800 dollars back, because he makes 500 times that in a year. Some idiot, huh?

:rolleyes

[samikeyp]

What I have yet to see is someone else acknowledge that that's pretty much all he fucking did,

You haven't seen anyone say that, because its not true.

If you think all Gervin did is score then you didn't watch him play and you missed the bigger picture.

[Jimcs50]

Look at his rebounding stats, numbnuts.

Gervin's rebounding stats were higher than any guard, or sm forward that SA has had besides Rodman and Robertson.

[Martin R]

1. Tim Duncan (fact)
2. George Gervin
3. David Robinson
4. Manu Ginobili (potential)
5. Sean Elliott
6. Mike Mitchell
7. Johnny Moore
8. Tony Parker (potential)
9. James Silas
10. Larry Kenon

[FromWayDowntown]

1. Tim Duncan (fact)
2. George Gervin
3. David Robinson
4. Manu Ginobili (potential)
5. Sean Elliott
6. Mike Mitchell
7. Johnny Moore
8. Tony Parker (potential)
9. James Silas
10. Larry Kenon

I think, in the end, Parker will have had a better career than Ginobili and will probably be considered the superior player.

[MI21]

I think, in the end, Parker will have had a better career than Ginobili and will probably be considered the superior player.

Oh no you didnt.

[Jimcs50]

I think, in the end, Parker will have had a better career than Ginobili and will probably be considered the superior player.

he will, mainly because he will probably play 5 more years than Manu, because he is so much younger. Had Terry Cummings played 5 more years with SA, he would probably be #4 on the list.

[Drive Like Jehu]

Anyone else want to put Dave ahead of Tim?

1 Robinson
2 Duncan
3 Gervin

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Who is going to end up on this list that's going to piss people off the most? Jaren Jackson seems like a safe bet if they were willing to include SJax for one year of heroics, although I expected to see him already listed. If he cracks the top 20 I'd be pretty angry.

[sandman]

You haven't seen anyone say that, because its not true.

If you think all Gervin did is score then you didn't watch him play and you missed the bigger picture.

True.

I worked in the locker room for the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, so I was able to see first hand and up close what Ice was all about, albeit it was the end of his career. Ice was very laconic, so fluid in his skinny-boy movements that it SEEMED like he did not play the game hard. But he was always a competitor and always rose to the challenge.

You can talk about how Manu would have averaged 32ppg back in the 80's, but you would be full of crap. Remember that the L back then had at least 6 fewer teams than the current league, so teams were much deeper than they are now. Back when Ice was winning scoring titles, there were teams that had HoFers coming off their benches. On top of that, the Euros had not started influencing the L, so the game was much more physical that it is today. And he did it all wearing shorts that made John Stockton shorts look long.

Just because some idiot can't remember what Ice accomplished because they were dragging around in a dirty diaper at the time doesn't trivialize what the man did.

[diego]

bump. in fact, this should be stickied.

anyone know who was added this past sunday?

[SpursWoman]

The Top 30 NBA Spurs: 24. Gene Banks; 23. Mario Elie

Web Posted: 11/26/2006 01:44 AM CST


San Antonio Express-News

Thirty years ago the Spurs played their first NBA season after being one of four teams from the American Basketball Association to join the older league. To commemorate this anniversary, on Sundays the Express-News will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here are Nos. 23 and 24:


23. Mario Elie, 1998-2000: Although Elie didn't come to the Spurs until he was 35, and after eight NBA seasons, what he brought with him played a vital role in the team's first NBA title run: NBA Finals experience and a toughness under pressure that can't be taught. Elie averaged 9.7 points in his first season with the Spurs, the lockout-shortened 1999 season that culminated in the first championship in club history. He was a key contributor during the playoff run, too, hitting some big 3-point shots on the way to the title. His leadership skills were such that he moved to the Spurs' bench as an assistant coach when his playing career ended.


24. Gene Banks, 1981-85: The Spurs picked Banks in the second round of the 1981 draft after his standout career at Duke, and he moved immediately into the team's regular playing rotation, averaging 9.7 points as a rookie. He assumed an even greater role in his second season, averaging 14.9 points on a solid team that went to the Western Conference finals a second-straight season. He averaged 15.9 points in 11 playoff games in that run to the conference finals and averaged 6.9 rebounds, as well.

[cherylsteele]

I'm not worreid about your opinion, whott. The 50% IS arbitrary. MJ didn't hit it. Are you seriously saying Ice > MJ? That's what you seem to be implying by staying on that foolish 50%

OMG, did you know that Perdue has a better playoff FG% than Tim OR David? All hail Will!!!
50% is not arbitrary.
How many times do you see players today miss wide open 10'-15' jump shots on a regular basis?

Ice could hit those almost automatically. He was very prolific at hit the banker off the wing....more so than Timmy. I remember reading somewhere that one critic was asked if his life depended on one jump shot who did he want to take it for him.....the person answered "George Gervin, without question."

Oh and Will Perdue, how many shots did he take? When you see top averages listed they usually tell you that they require a certain minimum of game and such. Perdue was a solid back-up, no question. But including his name, that is absurd.

Ice did this over his entire career.....not just from the paint and garbage buckets like Perdue had. Ice was THE FOCAL POINT of the Spurs' offense for nearly a decade....just like DRob was.

[cherylsteele]

Perdue .553
DRob .518. Look it up.
Okay I did......according to NBA.com:
Perdue Reg. Season 515%
DRob Reg. Season 518%

You make outlandish statements like this and you want us to take you seriously? :rolleyes

1. Tim Duncan
2. George Gervin
3. David Robinson
4. Artis Gilmore
5. Sean Elliot
6. Manu Ginobilli
7. Alvin Robertson
8. James Silas
9. Terry Cummings
10 Tony Parker

I unfortunately never got to see Silas or Kenon play....I moved here in 1980.
My list order isn't in any real particular order....I just used numbers to make look neat and orderly.

[cheguevara]

Anyone else want to put Dave ahead of Tim?

1 Robinson
2 Duncan
3 Gervin

only if Vinny Del Negro and Antoine Carr are put ahead of them:

1. Vinny Del Negro
2. Anoine Carr
3. Robinson
4. Duncan

[pichichi63]

Del Negro !!!!! What a wonderful player !!!!
I agree with you "the Che"

[FromWayDowntown]

Speaking of Del Negro . . . ..

The Top 30 NBA Spurs: 22. Vinny Del Negro; 21. Steve Kerr

Web Posted: 12/03/2006 12:57 AM CST

San Antonio Express-News
Thirty years ago the Spurs played their first NBA season after being one of four teams from the American Basketball Association to join the older league. To commemorate this anniversary, on Sundays the Express-News will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here are Nos. 22 and 21:

22. Vinny Del Negro, 1992-98: The Spurs signed Del Negro as a free agent in 1992, and he was an integral part of teams that won two Midwest Division titles, including the 62-20 team that advanced to the 1995 Western Conference finals. He averaged 11.2 points in his 433 regular- season games, 9.5 points in 46 playoff games. Del Negro left the Spurs after the 1997-98 season and joined the Bucks. He later played for the Suns and Warriors. Del Negro ranks 10th all-time on the Spurs' list of 3-pointers made (205) and fourth in free-throw percentage (82.8). He is now Director of Player Personnel for the Suns.

21. Steve Kerr, 1998-01, 2002-03: Though Kerr played only four seasons with the Spurs, he earned championship rings in both 1999 and 2003 and made significant contributions in both title runs. If he did nothing else in his four seasons, he would always be remembered for shooting the Spurs back from the brink of defeat in Game 6 of the 2003 Western Conference finals in Dallas. He also was one of the team's most valuable players in the locker room, a veteran leader whose experience in his championship runs with the Bulls helped the Spurs navigate their first Finals. He is now an analyst for TNT's NBA telecasts.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

On Kerr's 4 3 pters in the WCF in 2003 - that wasn't all he did! Remember he took a charge and had at least one steal during that run. He effectively shut Nash down. It was the best defensive performance by a 6' white guy in the history of the NBA! :lol

Steve Kerr, Nash-stopper!

[5ToolMan]

Notice he hasn't done shit for Indiana in the playoffs? He played very well off of Tim Duncan for one playoff run, but then so did Jaren Fucking Jackson, and I may puke if he makes this list at all...

Indiana was actually developing into a very impressive unit with Jackson as a player, before the fight in Detroit knocked them out of contention in 2005. Injuries to O'Neal, and the Pacers' suspension and subsequent divorce from Ron kept them developing much in 2006.

Hoops is not a one man game. While I agree, Stephen will never carry a great team for an entire season. He has; the stones to take and the talent to hit the big shots in the biggest of games.

I agree with you. Stephen needs team support to deliver big shots at big moments. But let us get real. That statement is an undisputed truth for everyone who has played the game. Because it is an undisputable truth of the game of hoops.

Jordon needed a few clutch shots Kerr to add to him empressive total of rings. While Kerr may not have done much that the average bear noticed in the years in between. As Spurs fans remember, we owe Steve a thank you for his contribution in 1999 and huge props for his essential contribution to the rings in 2003.

Given the chance, S-Jax has proven he can deliver. That is good enough for him to be a deserving member of the Spurs top 30, to me.

[greens]

You guys think Bruce Bowen will be on the list? I mean without him, there is no way the Spurs would have won the 03 and 05 championships...He's the best perimeter defender...And at one time, was a leader in 3 pointers...Also recall the Chauncey block with a minute left in game 7...had Chauncey made that shot, the outcome could have been very different...Plus Bruce holds the record for the most consecutive games and being a starter since 2001...and not to mention he has been playing huge minutes since 2001...I mean I think he should at least be considered...

But yeah, I think Tim, Manu, and Tony will be on the list, for sure...

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

If Bruce isn't on the list, there's something very wrong with the people compiling it.

In fact, we should really talk about the "Big Four", not the "Big Three", because as you rightly state, there would be no 03 and 05 rings without Bruce.

[FromWayDowntown]

Given the identities of the first 10 players on this list, I'm going to be surprised if Bowen isn't in the top 15 and perhaps the top 10 on the list.

Here are the 10 that Monroe has already named:

30. Stephen Jackson
29. Willie Anderson
28. Dave Corzine
27. Coby Dietrick
26. Chuck Person
25. Mike Gale
24. Gene Banks
23. Mario Elie
22. Vinny Del Negro
21. Steve Kerr

I'm pretty sure that I can guess most of the next 20, though the guessing around #20 becomes fairly subjective and depends entirely on how much you are willing to discount major faux pas, how much you add for clutch/memorable play, and how much you factor the team's success into the equation. My top 20 would be, in no particular order:

David Robinson
George Gervin
James Silas
Sean Elliott
Johnny Moore
Tim Duncan
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
Bruce Bowen
Avery Johnson
Larry Kenon
Artis Gilmore
Alvin Robertson
Mike Mitchell
Terry Cummings
Robert Horry
Jaren Jackson
Mark Olberding
Dennis Rodman
Rod Strickland

It was difficult for me to leave Chris Whitney off the list . . . .

[venitian navigator]

Given the identities of the first 10 players on this list, I'm going to be surprised if Bowen isn't in the top 15 and perhaps the top 10 on the list.

Here are the 10 that Monroe has already named:

30. Stephen Jackson
29. Willie Anderson
28. Dave Corzine
27. Coby Dietrick
26. Chuck Person
25. Mike Gale
24. Gene Banks
23. Mario Elie
22. Vinny Del Negro
21. Steve Kerr

I'm pretty sure that I can guess most of the next 20, though the guessing around #20 becomes fairly subjective and depends entirely on how much you are willing to discount major faux pas, how much you add for clutch/memorable play, and how much you factor the team's success into the equation. My top 20 would be, in no particular order:

David Robinson
George Gervin
James Silas
Sean Elliott
Johnny Moore
Tim Duncan
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
Bruce Bowen
Avery Johnson
Larry Kenon
Artis Gilmore
Alvin Robertson
Mike Mitchell
Terry Cummings
Robert Horry
Jaren Jackson
Mark Olberding
Dennis Rodman
Rod Strickland

It was difficult for me to leave Chris Whitney off the list . . . .



That's a pretty good selection of the rest...and probably these will be the 20 remaining.
But, to me, more than Chris Whitney, it will ne very difficult to leave off the list Dawkins...there have ben times when he was the really n° 1 weapon on the team, winning some games without any help in the front court!!!
He was clearly one of the best guard for an up tempo offense I've ever seen...and he spent the best part of his career with us (then he went down, 'cause of injuries)... I know the management didn't make bad deals about them, but I really would have seen him and Robertson in a team with David Robinson, instead of Cheeks (Strickland) and Cummings!

[freemeat]

Why has no one mentioned Lloyd Daniels yet? That guy was a phenom!!

[FromWayDowntown]

And now, the top 20 . . . .

20. Mark Olberding, 1976-82: He was one of the ABA Spurs who made the transition into the NBA 30 years ago. Olberding was a solid contributor who averaged 10.7 points and 5.5 rebounds in six NBA seasons with the Spurs. He was even better as a playoff performer for the Spurs, averaging 12.0 points and 7.0 rebounds in 41 games over his six seasons. He still ranks seventh on the Spurs' playoff rebounding list (286), ninth in both playoff shots attempted (486) and made (230) and 10th in playoff assists (139).

19. Robert Horry, 2003-present: The instant "Big Shot Rob" nailed the 3-point shot that beat the Detroit Pistons in pivotal Game 5 of the 2005 NBA Finals, he cemented a spot in Spurs history. The game-winner ranks among the greatest clutch shots in Spurs and NBA history. The Spurs went on to win that series in seven games, giving Horry his sixth NBA championship — he won three with the Lakers and two with the Rockets. His numbers for the Spurs are not imposing, but since joining them, he has been the team's most reliable big man off the bench and one of the team's prime playoff performers. In just three seasons, Horry already ranks fifth in playoff 3-pointers made (52), ninth in playoff blocks (31) and 10th in playoff rebounds (236).


The list as it stands
19. Robert Horry
20. Mark Olberding
21. Steve Kerr
22. Vinny Del Negro
23. Mario Elie
24. Gene Banks
25. Mike Gale
26. Chuck Person
27. Coby Dietrick
28. Dave Corzine
29. Willie Anderson
30. Stephen Jackson

[Solid D]

:tu Thanks for adding these in FWD!

[FromWayDowntown]

It's apparently our little project, Solid D.

So few others seem interested.

[SenorSpur]

Speaking of Del Negro . . . ..

The Top 30 NBA Spurs: 22. Vinny Del Negro; 21. Steve Kerr

Web Posted: 12/03/2006 12:57 AM CST

San Antonio Express-News
Thirty years ago the Spurs played their first NBA season after being one of four teams from the American Basketball Association to join the older league. To commemorate this anniversary, on Sundays the Express-News will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here are Nos. 22 and 21:

22. Vinny Del Negro, 1992-98: The Spurs signed Del Negro as a free agent in 1992, and he was an integral part of teams that won two Midwest Division titles, including the 62-20 team that advanced to the 1995 Western Conference finals. He averaged 11.2 points in his 433 regular- season games, 9.5 points in 46 playoff games. Del Negro left the Spurs after the 1997-98 season and joined the Bucks. He later played for the Suns and Warriors. Del Negro ranks 10th all-time on the Spurs' list of 3-pointers made (205) and fourth in free-throw percentage (82.8). He is now Director of Player Personnel for the Suns.


Vinny Del Negro is probably the one Spur that I absolutely hated the most. When the Spurs had a reputation around the league as being "soft", HE was certainly one of the reasons why.

It was HE whom former GM Bob Bass suggested would be able to run the PG position after the FO shipped Rod Strickland out of town back in '92. Of course, that failed experiment even before the end of his first seaon with the team. The FO was then forced move VDN to his natural position of SG and bring in the likes of John Lucas and Avery Johnson to solidify the position.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I'm interested FWD, thanks again. :)

[v2freak]

The big 3 represents the players on the Spurs that are best known for scoring production. And if I were to guess, I'd say a lot of the members here are new or have forgotten certain things. I wouldn't put Ginobili or Parker in the top 10 just yet

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Ginobili and Parker have led the team and contributed heavily to 2 rings. For mine that puts them well up in the top 10 right now. Without them, we have one ring.

[FromWayDowntown]

Apologies for my pouting.

I'm just disappointed that I couldn't single-handedly bring back Whitney > Parker.

Best to leave that to the legends, I guess.

[v2freak]

The common factor between all 3 championship teams is Duncan - that's why I'd put him at #1.

[timvp]

My biggest problem with the list so far is Steve Kerr is way too high. The guy had a handful of good games for the Spurs in parts of four seasons in San Antonio. He was a gigantic bust in his first go around with the team. When the Spurs brought him back, he had his best regular season (4 points, 1 assist) and for once showed up in the playoffs ... but that was only in a couple games.

If not for his one game against the Mavericks in his final season (a game in which the Spurs were going to win anyways and the real heroes were Stephen Jackson and Malik Rose), Kerr doesn't make the list. No way I rank him ahead of Mario Elie and Stephen Jackson -- players who had one solid season and where huge parts of championship teams. I don't even think you can rank him ahead of players who had multiple good seasons such as Gene Banks, Willie Anderson and Vinny Del Negro.

[slayermin]

If not for his one game against the Mavericks in his final season (a game in which the Spurs were going to win anyways and the real heroes were Stephen Jackson and Malik Rose), Kerr doesn't make the list.

Stephen Jackson never received enough credit for his performance in that game. He was the best player on both teams that day.

[FromWayDowntown]

To his credit, Kerr played an important role in Game 5 of the 2003 Finals as well, but I was surprised to see him ranked as high as he was on this list.

When I put together my thoughts about players who were missing and likely to show up in the Top 20, there were a couple of guys who were productive with the Spurs, who couldn't fit on that list because there were only 20 spots left. I can't imagine that Monroe will omit, say, Strickland or Rodman, for example, but if he does completely leave them off the list (because of their checkered behavior while in SA), having Kerr at #21 would render the list absolutely laughable.

[gospursgojas]

Steven Jackson was alot better that Chuck Person

[FromWayDowntown]

The next two includes The Whopper and the Worm:

18. Dennis Rodman, 1993-95: The greatest rebounder in team history, his average of 17.3 rebounds in the 1993-94 season remains the Spurs' all-time best, topping the 16.8 he averaged in 1994-95. To better appreciate those seasons, consider that next-best on the list is David Robinson's 13.0 in 1990-91. Rodman has nine of the top 10 single game rebounding marks, including a 32-rebound game that stands as No. 1. He had 10 games of 25 or more rebounds among the 118 he played in silver and black. That the Spurs traded him after two seasons had to do with his occasionally bizarre behavior, nothing to do with his effort or performance.

17. Billy Paultz, 1976-80 and 1982-83: "The Whopper" was a mountain of a man who joined the team for its final ABA season, then helped it make a smooth transition into the NBA. Some of the screens he set with his wide body for George Gervin, James Silas and Mike Gale were legendary. He also was a capable scorer and solid rebounder. He had surprising athleticism for a player of his bulk, which allowed him to block 543 shots in his five NBA seasons. He led the team in blocks in its first three seasons in the NBA and was No. 5 in the NBA in blocks in 1977-78, at 2.43 per game.

The list as it stands
17. Billy Paultz
18. Dennis Rodman
19. Robert Horry
20. Mark Olberding
21. Steve Kerr
22. Vinny Del Negro
23. Mario Elie
24. Gene Banks
25. Mike Gale
26. Chuck Person
27. Coby Dietrick
28. Dave Corzine
29. Willie Anderson
30. Stephen Jackson

[Solid D]

Paultz had very long arms and legs with a thick, short upper body. His arms hung to the side in a similar fashion to Kevin McHale. Whopper was highly effective and productive inside. He knew a lot of little tricks of the trade. He also had a nice mid-range jumper when he squared-up.

Del Negro had a smooth jump shot, similar to Beno Udrih. TV broadcaster Dave Barnett and analyst Coby Dietrich coined the phrase the Vinny "Hair Fake" (I forget which one of them originated the term). Vinny D. was a matador on defense.

[MosesGuthrie]

The Whopper kicked ass.

[Beaverfuzz]

No Walter Berry? I want my money back!

[MosesGuthrie]

No Walter Berry? I want my money back!

"My game does not consist of fundamentals." :)

[Horry For 3!]

19. Robert Horry, 2003-present: The instant "Big Shot Rob" nailed the 3-point shot that beat the Detroit Pistons in pivotal Game 5 of the 2005 NBA Finals, he cemented a spot in Spurs history. The game-winner ranks among the greatest clutch shots in Spurs and NBA history. The Spurs went on to win that series in seven games, giving Horry his sixth NBA championship — he won three with the Lakers and two with the Rockets. His numbers for the Spurs are not imposing, but since joining them, he has been the team's most reliable big man off the bench and one of the team's prime playoff performers. In just three seasons, Horry already ranks fifth in playoff 3-pointers made (52), ninth in playoff blocks (31) and 10th in playoff rebounds (236).
My boy :smokin

[sprrs]

My biggest problem with the list so far is Steve Kerr is way too high. The guy had a handful of good games for the Spurs in parts of four seasons in San Antonio. He was a gigantic bust in his first go around with the team. When the Spurs brought him back, he had his best regular season (4 points, 1 assist) and for once showed up in the playoffs ... but that was only in a couple games.

If not for his one game against the Mavericks in his final season (a game in which the Spurs were going to win anyways and the real heroes were Stephen Jackson and Malik Rose), Kerr doesn't make the list. No way I rank him ahead of Mario Elie and Stephen Jackson -- players who had one solid season and where huge parts of championship teams. I don't even think you can rank him ahead of players who had multiple good seasons such as Gene Banks, Willie Anderson and Vinny Del Negro.

He did a pretty damn decent job in '03 as the backup PG when Speedy was injured. And as FWD said, he did have a fairly impressive last two games of the finals. But at the same time he could probably have settled to rank lower.

[whottt]

I agree that Kerr shouldn't be ranked ahead of Jack and Elie...well ok it doesn't bother me as much with Jack as it does with Elie.

But he played a bigger role in that championship than some people want to give him credit for though.

21 probably is too high....but I rank him ahead of Vinny just on principle.

[Solid D]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/mmonroe/stories/MYSA123106.10C.BKNspurs.rose.276e808.html

The Top 30 NBA Spurs: No. 15 Malik Rose

Web Posted: 12/30/2006 08:44 PM CST

San Antonio Express-News

Thirty years ago the Spurs played their first NBA season after being one of four teams from the American Basketball Association to join the older league. To commemorate this anniversary, on Sundays the Express-News will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs.
Here is No. 15:

Malik Rose, 1997-2005: Rose never was more than a spot starter during his seven-plus seasons with the team. Only once did he average double-figure scoring and his best season as a rebounder yielded an underwhelming average of only 6.4 per game. Yet Rose was considered one of the team's most vital players during a span that yielded two NBA championships.

He was one of the team's emotional leaders, an energized sixth man who could always be counted on to inspire both the team and its fans, as well as one of its toughest, smartest interior defenders.

Although he was just 6-foot-7 and 255 pounds, his willingness to play in the pivot and push and shove with the monsters in the paint, including mammoth Shaquille O'Neal, was inspirational to his teammates.

Rose is seventh in games played in silver and black, appearing in 509 games. He pulled down 2,233 rebounds, 10th on the team's all-time list.

Even more impressive is where he ranks in those same categories on the team's playoff honor roll.

His 80 playoff games are fifth all-time and his 348 rebounds in the playoffs rank third. He was a major contributor in the 24 games of the 2003 NBA championship run, averaging 9.3 points and 5.8 rebounds.

The Spurs traded Rose to the Knicks for Nazr Mohammed in 2005, but he still remains very popular among Spurs fans.

[Willinsa]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/mmonroe/stories/MYSA123106.10C.BKNspurs.rose.276e808.html

The Top 30 NBA Spurs: No. 15 Malik Rose

Web Posted: 12/30/2006 08:44 PM CST

San Antonio Express-News

Thirty years ago the Spurs played their first NBA season after being one of four teams from the American Basketball Association to join the older league. To commemorate this anniversary, on Sundays the Express-News will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs.
Here is No. 15:

Malik Rose, 1997-2005: Rose never was more than a spot starter during his seven-plus seasons with the team. Only once did he average double-figure scoring and his best season as a rebounder yielded an underwhelming average of only 6.4 per game. Yet Rose was considered one of the team's most vital players during a span that yielded two NBA championships.

He was one of the team's emotional leaders, an energized sixth man who could always be counted on to inspire both the team and its fans, as well as one of its toughest, smartest interior defenders.

Although he was just 6-foot-7 and 255 pounds, his willingness to play in the pivot and push and shove with the monsters in the paint, including mammoth Shaquille O'Neal, was inspirational to his teammates.

Rose is seventh in games played in silver and black, appearing in 509 games. He pulled down 2,233 rebounds, 10th on the team's all-time list.

Even more impressive is where he ranks in those same categories on the team's playoff honor roll.

His 80 playoff games are fifth all-time and his 348 rebounds in the playoffs rank third. He was a major contributor in the 24 games of the 2003 NBA championship run, averaging 9.3 points and 5.8 rebounds.

The Spurs traded Rose to the Knicks for Nazr Mohammed in 2005, but he still remains very popular among Spurs fans.


This is a fucking joke, this scrub can't get his lazy ass off the bench for a bad Knicks team.

[Texas_Ranger]

This is a fucking joke, this scrub can't get his lazy ass off the bench for a bad Knicks team.

He's got no motivation to play as a Knickboxer and he is old now, but as a Spur he was great in my opinion.

[baseline bum]

Fucking joke? Was it a fucking joke when he dropped 25 on Dallas in game 2 of the 03 WCF in a must-win, after the Spurs blew game 1? How about when he ignited the run that finally allowed the Spurs to put New Jersey away in game 3 of the 2003 Finals when he dunked on Mutombo? People forget how close that series was, and the Spurs were struggling pretty badly until Malik got that throw-down, and looking at going down 2-1.

[Spurs Brazil]

Fucking joke? Was it a fucking joke when he dropped 25 on Dallas in game 2 of the 03 WCF in a must-win, after the Spurs blew game 1? How about when he ignited the run that finally allowed the Spurs to put New Jersey away in game 3 of the 2003 Finals when he dunked on Mutombo? People forget how close that series was, and the Spurs were struggling pretty badly until Malik got that throw-down, and looking at going down 2-1.

I agree

[wildbill2u]

Here you go. No Silas? Tough shit. It's about points.

1. David Robinson 987 34269 20790 7365 14221 .518 6035 8201 .736 25 100 .250 3083 7414 10497 2441 1387 2954 2417 2836
2. George Gervin (H) 709 24471 19383 7526 14647 .514 4258 5061 .841 73 240 .304 1108 2284 3392 2070 892 647 1976 2121
3. Tim Duncan 666 25245 14689 5615 11123 .505 3436 5016 .685 23 113 .204 2141 5879 8020 2092 529 1650 1928 1833
4. Mike Mitchell 488 15992 9799 4152 8429 .493 1480 1888 .784 15 67 .224 920 1763 2683 679 319 227 796 1262
5. Sean Elliott 669 22093 9659 3492 7499 .466 2112 2643 .799 563 1485 .379 751 2190 2941 1700 522 257 1199 1452
6. Larry Kenon 318 11550 6733 2799 5678 .493 1134 1373 .826 1 9 .111 1045 2172 3217 1063 547 121 811 783
7. Avery Johnson 644 20009 6486 2700 5544 .487 1064 1500 .709 22 137 .161 262 1047 1309 4474 713 121 1262 1196
8. Alvin Robertson 389 12525 6285 2570 5327 .482 1084 1438 .754 61 228 .268 808 1279 2087 2094 1128 204 1148 1336
9. Artis Gilmore 380 12387 6127 2208 3562 .620 1711 2370 .722 0 12 .000 1094 2577 3671 579 194 700 1008 1282
10. Willie Anderson 451 13611 5946 2487 5228 .476 915 1170 .782 57 233 .245 487 1307 1794 1874 505 279 1001 1234
I'm curious if these points include the ABA stats?

[wildbill2u]

You haven't seen anyone say that, because its not true.

If you think all Gervin did is score then you didn't watch him play and you missed the bigger picture.
They used to have an award (can't remember the name) based on the total stats, not just scoring, of the highest rated player in the league. Gervin won it two or three times.

And the bigger picture was the graceful athleticism with which Gervin scored. I never missed a game for about the first ten years of the franchise and i can tell you that in every game, Gervin made at least one "Omigawd" shot that made the Spurs worth the price of the ticket.

San Antonio was not a 'basketball" town, but People came to see that kind of play. You could make a good argument that Gervin saved the franchise in the early days by putting butts in the seats. Not many players can make that kind of contribution.

[wildbill2u]

Okay I did......according to NBA.com:
Perdue Reg. Season 515%
DRob Reg. Season 518%

You make outlandish statements like this and you want us to take you seriously? :rolleyes

1. Tim Duncan
2. George Gervin
3. David Robinson
4. Artis Gilmore
5. Sean Elliot
6. Manu Ginobilli
7. Alvin Robertson
8. James Silas
9. Terry Cummings
10 Tony Parker

I unfortunately never got to see Silas or Kenon play....I moved here in 1980.
My list order isn't in any real particular order....I just used numbers to make look neat and orderly.
Not a bad list at all although Parker may move up a lot since he has so many good years left ahead of him.

Gilmore and Cummings were great players, but by the time they came here, like John Lucas, they were past their glory years. I remember the first time I saw Cummings play that I thought he had the most sculpted body I'd even seen on a basketball court. Unfortunately for Cummings, when he was traded here the Spurs didn't have as much talent to put around him as they had in past years.

I suspect that whoever is creating the list for the paper is going by career stats, not Spurs contributions. I'm not sure that they belong that high on a Spurs list over Kenon and Mitchell for example.

[K-State Spur]

This is a fucking joke, this scrub can't get his lazy ass off the bench for a bad Knicks team.

Who cares what he is doing now? From 2000-2003, he was one of the best bench players in the league.

It was time to move him and that move was necessary for the 2005 title, but it doesn't mean that we should disrespect what he did when he was here.

[dropstep4421]

anybody remember gene banks out of philadelphia

[FromWayDowntown]

For whatever it's worth:


Top 30 NBA Spurs: No. 14 Bruce Bowen

link (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/mmonroe/stories/MYSA010707.08C.BKNtopspurs.bowen.2c2e0fc.html)

Bruce Bowen, 2001-present: If there is one player who has epitomized the Spurs' lock-down approach to defense during the run to two NBA titles in the 21st century, it is Bowen. The 6-foot-7 forward never has averaged more than 8.2 points per game and is neither a prolific rebounder or assist man. What he has been through his five-plus seasons is the heart and soul of one of the NBA's best defensive outfits.

Bowen has earned a spot on the NBA's All-Defensive team each of the past six seasons, a first-team selection each of the past three seasons. He was second in voting for Defensive Player of the Year last season. His reputation for locking up some of the league's best offensive players has grown to the point some of them have accused him of using unfair tactics. In fact, Bowen's primary tactic is relentless hard work and preparation.

Bowen came to the Spurs as an unsigned free agent in 2001 and immediately became a starter. He arrived with a reputation as a solid defender without a perimeter shot, but he's developed into an uncanny 3-point shooter. He has made more than 40 percent of his 3-point attempts in all but one season he has been with the Spurs. This season, he moved into second place on the Spurs' all-time list of 3-pointers made. Even more impressive is his standing on the list of playoff 3-pointers made: No. 1. He is fifth on the regular-season list for 3-point field goal accuracy.

Bowen has moved into 10th on the list of games played; is tied for fifth in playoff games played; fifth in playoff blocks and 10th in playoff steals.

An iron man who has the longest active streak of consecutive games played in the NBA, Bowen is No. 1 on the Spurs' list of consecutive games.

Active in community outreach, he received the NBA's Community Assist award in January 2006.


The Top 30 NBA Spurs: No. 13 Johnny Moore

link (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/mmonroe/stories/MYSA011407.10C.BKNtopspurs.moore.33ade23.html)

Thirty years ago, in 1976, the Spurs played their first NBA season after being one of four teams from the American Basketball Association to join the older league. To commemorate this anniversary, the Express-News will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here is No. 13:

Johnny Moore, 1980-90: One of three players in club history to record 20 assists in a game and the Spurs' all-time No. 2 assist man, Moore's number, double-zero, was retired by the club on March 20, 1998. He was recognized by the team both for his courage in battling a devastating disease, Desert Fever, in his final seasons as a player, as well as for his accomplishments on the court.

The cat-quick guard played college ball at Texas and was obtained by the Spurs from Seattle for cash on June 30, 1979. It was money well spent, as Moore became the team's starter at point guard and one of its key players for the next five seasons.

He led the NBA in assists in the 1981-82 season and was third in steals, at 2.06 per game. He was second in assists (9.8) and third in steals (2.52) in 1982-83; fifth in assists (9.6) in 1983-84 and third in assists (10.0) and second in steals (2.79) in 1984-85. His 10.0 assists in 1984-85 is the second-best single-season assist mark in club history.

Moore shows up on the team's all-time Top 10 in games played (6th, 519), assists (2nd, 3,865) and steals (3rd, 1,017). Those numbers would have been even more impressive had he not been diagnosed on Dec. 26, 1986, with Desert Fever. Though doctors warned him that the disease could be fatal, he managed to return to the court, though he played only four games in the 1987-88 season and sat out the entire 1988-89 season. He returned to play 53 in his final season, 1989-90.


Top 30 NBA Spurs - No. 12: Artis Gilmore

link (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/mmonroe/stories/MYSA012107.12C.BKNtopspurs.gilmore.1242864.html)

Thirty years ago the Spurs played their first NBA season after being one of four teams from the American Basketball Association to join the older league. To commemorate the anniversary, on Sundays the Express-News is recognizing our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here is No. 12.
Artis Gilmore, 1982-87: After winning the 1981-82 Midwest Division title, the Spurs were eliminated in the Western Conference finals by the Lakers and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Management's response was an off-season trade for Gilmore, the Chicago Bulls' 7-foot-2 center regarded as the strongest man in the league, one of the few capable of battling Abdul-Jabbar in the post. "The A-Train" made an immediate impact, averaging 18.0 points and 12.0 rebounds and leading the NBA in field goal percentage (62.6 percent) as the Spurs went 53-29 and won another Midwest title. Again, the Spurs went to the Western Conference finals, where Gilmore battled Abdul-Jabbar in a series that ended with a heartbreaking 101-100 loss in Game 6 at HemisFair Arena.

That 1982-83 season would be the high point for the Spurs during Gilmore's time in San Antonio. The next four seasons became a time of transition that included the end of the George Gervin era. Through it all, Gilmore was a rock in the middle. He averaged 16.1 points, 9.7 rebounds and shot 62 percent in 380 games. He also blocked 700 shots.

Gilmore is all over the Spurs' record book and his position atop the team's list of most accurate shooters might be the most unreachable. He also ranks third all-time in rebounds (3,671), third in blocks (700), fifth in free throws made (1,711) and ninth in points scored (6,127).


The list as it stands
12. Artis Gilmore
13. Johnny Moore
14. Bruce Bowen
15. Malik Rose
16. Terry Cummings
17. Billy Paultz
18. Dennis Rodman
19. Robert Horry
20. Mark Olberding
21. Steve Kerr
22. Vinny Del Negro
23. Mario Elie
24. Gene Banks
25. Mike Gale
26. Chuck Person
27. Coby Dietrick
28. Dave Corzine
29. Willie Anderson
30. Stephen Jackson

[baseline bum]

I think Bowen's pretty underrated at 14. Anyone who remembers how bad our defense was in the the Chucky Brown/Derek Anderson/Antonio Daniels days should appreciate what Bowen has meant to the team. Every night from October 1999 to May 2001 was a guaranteed 20+ on 50% shooting for the opposing team's shooting guard. Bruce came and stopped that immediately.

[timvp]

I think Bowen's pretty underrated at 14. Anyone who remembers how bad our defense was in the the Chucky Brown/Derek Anderson/Antonio Daniels days should appreciate what Bowen has meant to the team. Every night from October 1999 to May 2001 was a guaranteed 20+ on 50% shooting for the opposing team's shooting guard. Bruce came and stopped that immediately.

Yeah, no way Johnny Moore > Bruce Bowen. Moore had a good 4.5 year stretch, but only one of those teams won at least 50 games.

Averaging 9-10 assists on teams with Gervin, Mitchell, Gilmore and Banks isn't really a huge accomplishment. Especially when he did nothing in the playoffs.

[FromWayDowntown]

Johnny Moore might be the most overrated Spur ever. He was well-liked and fit nicely with Gervin and Mitchell, but he was never an All-Star and never made any sort of All-NBA team. He won an assist title in 81-82 and finished in the top 5 in the league in assists in 3 other seasons; but as timvp correctly notes, it would have been difficult for him to avoid that accomplishment on those teams. He also holds the franchise record for assists in a playoff game with 20 in a first round game against Denver in 1983.

He had one great playoff run in 1983, averaging 22.5 ppg and 14.6 apg. But part of those numbers might be the fact that the Spurs averaged 132 in the WCSF against Denver and 111 in the WCF against LA. Take that run away, and Moore is about a 7.5 ppg, 5.5 apg sort of player in his other 30 playoff games. Hardly the stuff of legends.

It was terribly unfortunate that he was struck down with Desert Fever. Aside from that misfortune, I'm not sure though that there was ever anything about Johnny Moore that warranted the sort of accolades that he now gets. He was a nice player on some good teams -- a difference maker in the history of the franchise? Not at all.

The fact that his number was retired has forever changed the evaluation of the "greatness" of Spurs, I think, and will diminish the value of that recognition for all but the greatest of the great.

[whottt]

Johnny Moore > AJ and if AJ's name doesn't come up real fucking quick after Moore's this list is going to be an even bigger joke than Zunni.

[FromWayDowntown]

Johnny Moore > AJ and if AJ's name doesn't come up real fucking quick after Moore's this list is going to be an even bigger joke than Zunni.

I'll leave the guts of that argument for others who care more about it.

Statistically, though, AJ was a better scorer than Moore over the course of his career -- despite the fact that the pace of the game slowed dramatically on a league-wide basis during the latter portion of AJ's long stay in San Antonio -- and only slightly less prolific as a passer (7.4 to 6.9), again despite the dramatically slower pace of the game after 1998 or so. AJ shot a better percentage for his career by a significant margin (.487 to .460), despite the fact that AJ couldn't hit a long jump shot to save his life for most of his career.

And for ratio purposes, I don't think you can exclude Moore's later games (post-Desert Fever) without also excluding the intermittent games/minutes that AJ got in his first few runs with the Spurs.

[SilverSpur]

Given the identities of the first 10 players on this list, I'm going to be surprised if Bowen isn't in the top 15 and perhaps the top 10 on the list.

Here are the 10 that Monroe has already named:

30. Stephen Jackson
29. Willie Anderson
28. Dave Corzine
27. Coby Dietrick
26. Chuck Person
25. Mike Gale
24. Gene Banks
23. Mario Elie
22. Vinny Del Negro
21. Steve Kerr

I'm pretty sure that I can guess most of the next 20, though the guessing around #20 becomes fairly subjective and depends entirely on how much you are willing to discount major faux pas, how much you add for clutch/memorable play, and how much you factor the team's success into the equation. My top 20 would be, in no particular order:

David Robinson
George Gervin
James Silas
Sean Elliott
Johnny Moore
Tim Duncan
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
Bruce Bowen
Avery Johnson
Larry Kenon
Artis Gilmore
Alvin Robertson
Mike Mitchell
Terry Cummings
Robert Horry
Jaren Jackson
Mark Olberding
Dennis Rodman
Rod Strickland

It was difficult for me to leave Chris Whitney off the list . . . .

I know the list is for the 30 Greatest Spurs, but if you could put together a list for Honorable Mention, who would you put on it. You know, players who actually played well even if it was for a short period of time.

Some players I liked

J.R. Reid
Dominique Wilkins
Derek Anderson
Will Perdue
Dale Ellis
Speedy Claxton

[FromWayDowntown]

The top 30 NBA Spurs: No. 11, Mike Mitchell

link (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/mmonroe/stories/MYSA012807.08C.BKNtopspurs.mitchell.1920982.html)

Mike Mitchell, 1980-88 and 1990: Mitchell was an important transitional player for the Spurs. A 6-foot-7 small forward from Auburn, he joined the team before George Gervin's eighth season and instantly became a solid second scorer. By the 1984-85 season, Gervin's last in San Antonio, Mitchell led the Spurs in scoring, the first player other than Gervin to lead the team since it joined the NBA in 1976. He was the team's top scorer again in 1985-86, at 23.4 points per game, and led the team in minutes played from 1983 to 1986.

Mitchell averaged 20.1 points in his seven seasons with the Spurs and is all over the team's list of all-time leaders. Most significantly, he ranks fourth in points scored in silver and black with 9,799. He also ranks eighth in games played (488), fourth in field goals made (4,152) and attempted (8,429), sixth in free throws made (1,480) and attempted (1,888) and 10th in all-time free throw percentage (78.4). He ranks eighth in three of the club's all-time playoff categories: points scored (646), and field goals made (273) and attempted (544).

"Mitch" scored 40 or more points 10 times during his Spurs days, including a high game of 47 in 1984.

When Mitchell became a free agent after the 1987-88 season, during which he averaged only 13.5 points, the Spurs opted not to re-sign him. But he became something of a bridge from the Gervin era to the David Robinson era when the Spurs brought him back for the 1990 playoffs, Robinson's first postseason.

[ShoogarBear]

Crap, I can't believe I'm just now seeing this thread.

[FromWayDowntown]

Crap, I can't believe I'm just now seeing this thread.

I keep bumping it every week to encourage some nostalgic discussion.

:depressed

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm still disappointed that my Chris Whitney reference went so utterly unnoticed.

[mardigan]

No Bill Curley?

[ShoogarBear]

Some short takes because I've got to pack for a trip:

-for the bottom half of the the list, it's sometimes tough trying to decide the tradeoff between long years of service without a ring vs. short-term contributions to a championship.

-:lmao @ a 2-page discussion about Gervin being in the top 3

-Steve Kerr is WILDLY overrated. Even if you take into account the championship factor, both Elie and SJax should be above him. Hell, you could argue Jaren Jackson ranks equal to him.

-Johnny Moore is also overrated, and I think a lot of that has to do with the Longhorn factor (in addition to the Desert Fever).

-whottt's temples are already bulging at the anticipation of AJ's placement. AJ >> Moore.

-Mike Gale >> Vinnie Del Negro

-There's a reasonable argument that Bowen > Elliott.

-My sister went out with Gene Banks once. Nice guy. For a while in college he looked like a potential #1 overall pick. I know he lost his wife to a brain tumor a few years back.

-The Whopper was incredibly effective for a guy who looked like a giant lump of clay. I remember taking my cousin from out of town to a SRO Spurs-Warriors game at the HemisFair. We were telling him about how great all the Spurs were except for Paultz, who was klutzy. Of course, Paultz had maybe his greatest NBA game ever, something like 24 points and 18 boards and 5 blocks, and the Spurs won on a shot by Gervin with about 2 seconds left. Ice was dribbling the ball around on the baseline with the clock running out and the entire stadium was yelling "Shoot! Shoot!". He just took his time and put it up when he was good and ready. :lol

-Mark Olberding everyone thought was going to be a SuperStar. The Spurs got him at age 18 after one year at Minnesota. he was a good all-around player and physical presence , but never really turned into the dominating big guy evryone thought he would be.

[Pugglekicker_21]

Gervin was great but what david did as a rookie was amazing, pulling the spurs from the top pick in the draft to a playoff appearance if im not mistaken

[101A]

-There's a reasonable argument that Bowen > Elliott.



No.

Elliot was a fantastic man defender - maybe not at Bruce's level, but right there.

Offense? As good with the 3 - and a first step that killed. No comparison whatsoever.

Elliot >> Bowen

[FromWayDowntown]

No.

Elliot was a fantastic man defender - maybe not at Bruce's level, but right there.

Offense? As good with the 3 - and a first step that killed. No comparison whatsoever.

Elliot >> Bowen

or Elliott

[101A]

or Elliott


Lawyers suck.

[FromWayDowntown]

Lawyers suck.

I'm just saving timvp the time and saving you the hassle of having him come down on you. He and I share that pet peeve.

Sean Elliott's name isn't hard to spell and given his stature with fans, it's remarkable to me that so many people still struggle with that.

[Jimcs50]

This is top 5

No discussions needed.


1. TD

2. DRob

3. Ice

4. Mike Mitchell

5 Sean Elliott

Artis Gilmore would be 6 in my opinion, followed by Johnny Moore, then TC.

Parker can jump to 6 if he plays out his contract and improves every year.

[Extra Stout]

I'm just saving timvp the time and saving you the hassle of having him come down on you. He and I share that pet peeve.

Sean Elliott's name isn't hard to spell and given his stature with fans, it's remarkable to me that so many people still struggle with that.
This is the United States of America, where many people struggle to spell their own names.

[101A]

I'm just saving timvp the time and saving you the hassle of having him come down on you. He and I share that pet peeve.

Sean Elliott's name isn't hard to spell and given his stature with fans, it's remarkable to me that so many people still struggle with that.

Fine...and I'm pretty embarrassed, frankly.

Does this mean I have to turn in my (floor) seat ticket stubs and signed Memorial Day Miracle EN?

[Mixability]

Does this mean I have to turn in my (floor) seat ticket stubs

You'd think you would have been able to read the back of his jersey from that vantage point.

:lol

[timvp]

I'm just saving timvp the time and saving you the hassle of having him come down on you. He and I share that pet peeve.

:tu

I was about to post :hat

One day every Spurs fan will know how to spell Sean Elliott. . .

[lebomb]

1. TD
2. Admiral
3. Gervin
4. Elliott
5. Mike Mitchell
6. Tony Parker
7. Terry Cummings
8. James Silas
9. Manu Ginobilli
10. Larry Kenon

[wildbill2u]

I think the argument that Gervin didn't play defense has to be tempered by the fact that in general there was less defense in the league. Refs called the games much tighter and we didn't want him to get into foul trouble.

He actually did a pretty good job defending the passing lanes and on help defense, averaging about 1.5 stls/gm and 1.5 blks/gm for most of his career.
Check out these same stats for the current bunch of Spurs. You'll be surprised to find out that GG got more steals and blocks for his career average than most any of them--including the defensive specialist Bowen.

[Spurs Brazil]

The Top 30 NBA Spurs: No. 10 Alvin Robertson

Web Posted: 02/03/2007 10:23 PM CST


San Antonio Express-News

Thirty years ago, in 1976, the Spurs played their first season in the NBA after the older league took in four teams from the American Basketball Association, including the Spurs. To commemorate the anniversary, the Express-News each Sunday will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here is No. 10:
Alvin Robertson, 1984-89: Before Bruce Bowen, the most renowned perimeter defender in Spurs history was Robertson. He and David Robinson are the only Spurs who've been named NBA Defensive Player of the Year.

A first-round draft pick in 1984 out of Arkansas, Robertson twice led the league in steals. In 1985-86 he averaged a league-leading 3.67 steals per game, a major factor in his earning the Defensive Player of the Year honor and being selected second-team All-NBA, one of only four players in club history to have been selected first, second or third-team All-NBA. He was a three-time All-Star. Only George Gervin, David Robinson and Tim Duncan have represented the Spurs in more All-Star Games.

Robertson led the Spurs in steals four of the five seasons he was with the club, three times averaging more than three per game. Though he played only five seasons in San Antonio, he ranks second in club history in total steals, with 1,129.

The 6-foot-4 guard, a member of '84 U.S. Olympic gold-medal team, was not one-dimensional. He averaged 16.2 points, on 48 percent shooting, and 5.4 rebounds over his five seasons. Robertson might have remained with the Spurs longer had it not been for off-the-court problems that continue to plague him. He was arrested again last week on warrants relating to past violations.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA020407.12C.BKNspurs.robertson.134a396.html

[SenorSpur]

The Top 30 NBA Spurs: No. 10 Alvin Robertson

Web Posted: 02/03/2007 10:23 PM CST


San Antonio Express-News

Thirty years ago, in 1976, the Spurs played their first season in the NBA after the older league took in four teams from the American Basketball Association, including the Spurs. To commemorate the anniversary, the Express-News each Sunday will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here is No. 10:
Alvin Robertson, 1984-89: Before Bruce Bowen, the most renowned perimeter defender in Spurs history was Robertson. He and David Robinson are the only Spurs who've been named NBA Defensive Player of the Year.

A first-round draft pick in 1984 out of Arkansas, Robertson twice led the league in steals. In 1985-86 he averaged a league-leading 3.67 steals per game, a major factor in his earning the Defensive Player of the Year honor and being selected second-team All-NBA, one of only four players in club history to have been selected first, second or third-team All-NBA. He was a three-time All-Star. Only George Gervin, David Robinson and Tim Duncan have represented the Spurs in more All-Star Games.

Robertson led the Spurs in steals four of the five seasons he was with the club, three times averaging more than three per game. Though he played only five seasons in San Antonio, he ranks second in club history in total steals, with 1,129.

The 6-foot-4 guard, a member of '84 U.S. Olympic gold-medal team, was not one-dimensional. He averaged 16.2 points, on 48 percent shooting, and 5.4 rebounds over his five seasons. Robertson might have remained with the Spurs longer had it not been for off-the-court problems that continue to plague him. He was arrested again last week on warrants relating to past violations.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA020407.12C.BKNspurs.robertson.134a396.html

For those who don't remember this guy, he was as tenacious a defender as the league has ever seen. His specialty was applying his rabid, ball-hawking, on-the-ball pressure on opposing guards from end-to-end. This hounded and frustrated his opponents, which led to the creation turnovers for himself and the team. He played the passing lanes with a certain cat-like quickness and stealth of a jaguar - as evidenced by his 2.71 career steals average.

Unlike Bowen who is a master of defensive footwork and tactical manuvers, Robertson was an exceptionally strong player with a chiseled physique and a very physical game. He was an excellent rebounder for his size (5.2 career avg) in the realm of a Jason Kidd or Fat Lever. Yet was also as capable of providing weak side defensive help and shot blocking.

However rest assured this guy was not just a great defender or a one-way player. He was an accomplished enough of a scorer that he played his natural 2-guard position and played it well. He could shoot the 3, had a good midrange game and wouldn't mind taking him man off the dribble, driving the lane and jamming on the opposition. He was good enough of a ball handler that he could slide easily over to the PG position and did on many occasions during a game. He triggered many a fast break by crashing the boards and getting out running in transition with former Spurs PG Johnny Moore or leading the break himself. He had one speed - break-neck. There was nothing to dislike about this guy on the court.

Were it not for his off-court troubles, he was well on his way toward a perennial all-star career and perhaps even potential HOF-type consideration. At the very least, his number #21 surely would have been hanging from the rafters of the AT&T Center. Which would have brought up an interesting set of circumstances seeing how he came before a certain current Spurs legend who wears the same number.

A bit of Robertson trivia:
Robertson is one of only four NBA players (D-Rob being one of the others) to record a quadruple-double (double digits in four statistical categories in a single game) when he registered 20 points, 11 rebounds, 10 assists and 10 steals whilst playing for the Spurs against the Phoenix Suns. He is also the only player to do so with steals as the fourth category (the other three were with blocks).

[baseline bum]

What could have been if Alvin had a decent head on his shoulders.... could you imagine anyone scoring against a team with David Robinson and Alvin Robertson on it?

[SenorSpur]

What could have been if Alvin had a decent head on his shoulders.... could you imagine anyone scoring against a team with David Robinson and Alvin Robertson on it?

Sick!

[Spurs Brazil]

The Top 30 NBA Spurs: No. 9, James Silas

Web Posted: 02/10/2007 09:32 PM CST


San Antonio Express-News

Thirty years ago, in 1976, the Spurs played their first season in the NBA after the older league took in four teams from the American Basketball Association, including the Spurs. To commemorate the anniversary, the Express-News each Sunday will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here is No. 9:
James Silas, 1973-81: You can't discuss the early history of the Spurs without mentioning Silas, known as "Captain Late" for his ability to take over games in crunch time. Silas was an original Spurs player, arriving in 1973 when the Dallas Chaparrals relocated to the Alamo City. And though Silas' first three seasons, his most productive with the Spurs, were during the team's final ABA years, he was one of the players who most helped them make a smooth transition when they were amalgamated into the NBA in 1976, despite the fact his first three NBA seasons were plagued by injury.


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Silas' finest season was the ABA's final season, when he averaged 23.8 points, 5.4 rebounds, 4.0 assists and 1.85 steals. Unfortunately, he suffered a broken ankle in the 1976 ABA playoffs, then blew out a knee in November of 1976, just as the Spurs were beginning their first season in the NBA. He played only 22 games in that first NBA season, only 37 the next season. NBA fans never really got to see the real "Captain Late," but his final three seasons with the Spurs produced scoring averages of 16.0, 17.7 and 17.7.

One of the best free-throw shooters in club history, Silas was fourth in the NBA in free-throw percentage (88.7 percent) in 1979-80, the third-best foul shooting season in club history. His career free-throw percentage, 85.5, is second-best in club history.

Silas' No. 13 jersey was retired by the Spurs on Feb. 28, 1984, making him the first player so honored by the team.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA021107.08C.BKNtopspurs.silas.17955eb.html

[wildbill2u]

Bob Bass invented the 1-4 to take advantage of Silas' 0ne-0n-0ne skills and FT prowess late in close games. That's why the nickname "Captain Late"

You don't need to know anything else about Si but this: The Spurs chose him to have the ball and take the shot at the end of games ahead of George Gervin.

Until his injuries, he was one of the best all-around PGs I've ever seen and certainly the best ever on the Spurs, notwithstanding TP.

[Spurs Brazil]

No. 8: Avery Johnson
1990-2001

Today he is coaching the Mavericks, the Spurs' No. 1 rival, but Johnson will remain one of the most popular Spurs for his role in helping the franchise win its first championship. It was a jump shot by Johnson, a great set-up man but a challenged shooter, that clinched the Spurs' first title at Madison Square Garden in 1999.

That shot alone merits inclusion among the top 30 all-time NBA Spurs, but Johnson was both the team's floor and spiritual leader during 10 seasons that ended with him as the team's all-time assists leader with 4,474. "The Little General" teamed with David Robinson to provide inspiration and leadership during a decade that stamped the franchise as one of the NBA's most successful.

Johnson's list of Spurs superlatives is long. On the team's list of all-time leaders he not only ranks first in assists, but fifth in games played (644), seventh in points scored (6,486), field goals made (2,700) and field goals attempted (5,544) and fifth in steals (712).

Twice he had 20 assists in a game, second only to John Lucas' 24 for a single game.

Johnson's 789 assists in 1995-96 is the second-best season mark in club history and his average of 9.6 assists that season is fourth-best.

Johnson excelled in the postseason, where he ranks first in club history in assists (547), fourth in games played (81), seventh in points scored (920), third in steals (94) and sixth in field goals made (384).

It was that one field goal in 1999 for which Johnson is most remembered.

— Mike Monroe

[Pugglekicker_21]

I still remeber my brother crying after he made that shot. THis is about where i'd put him too, only because of his sometimes challenged shots.

[Extra Stout]

What could have been if Alvin had a decent head on his shoulders.... could you imagine anyone scoring against a team with David Robinson and Alvin Robertson on it?
I think, even had he been able to stay clean, the Spurs still would have traded him for Cummings.

[baseline bum]

If Alvin could have stayed clean, there would be no reason to ever trade him (other than money). Terry Cummings was a really good player and all, but Alvin had lifetime All-Star written all over him. He wasn't a great shooter, but he could rebound, create for others, and of course he was a monster defensively. He was way more talented than TC, but there's no way the Spurs could afford to let him pollute David Robinson's locker-room.

[exstatic]

They wanted Cummings to buffer David in the paint. He could score in the paint, and help with the rebounding load. Alvin was their only real trade asset to get a 20/10 calibur PF. Willie Anderson and rookie Sean Elliott made Alvin the bait.

[whottt]

TC was a flat out stud his first year here...

However...Alvin Robertson, Mo Cheeks, Elliott, Willie Anderson and Drob in 1989?

Hmmm...would have been really interesting considering the team we did have almos took out the eventual conference champions...but TC was a big reason for that...so were Brickowski and Wingate.

[whottt]

I'm just happy the clowns at SE News didn't try to cram AJ into the top 5. It's joke enough he's in the top 10 ahead of Silas and Moore.

[whottt]

Top 7 are going to be Ice, Kenon, Drob, Elliott, Duncan, Parker and Manu.

I'd agree with that.

It'll be interesting to see if Parker or Manu crack the top 5...

[FromWayDowntown]

Top 7 are going to be Ice, Kenon, Drob, Elliott, Duncan, Parker and Manu.

I'd agree with that.

It'll be interesting to see if Parker or Manu crack the top 5...

I figure that the top 4 will be Robinson, Duncan, Gervin, Elliott.

I agree that 5-7 will be Parker, Kenon, and Manu in some order.

Statistically, Kenon is the superior player in that group -- for that matter, he's statistically superior to Elliott. But Larry didn't have the longevity with the Spurs that Elliott and Parker have had, and he hasn't had the playoff success that Manu's had.

My guess, when push comes to shove, is that Manu's 2005 playoff heroics will barely overcome Parker's statistically superior regular seasons.

Ginobili ends up in the Top 5, Parker is 6, Kenon is 7.

Elliott is 4. Gervin is 3. Monroe puts and ties Duncan and Robinson for #1.

[ShoogarBear]

I'm guessing Kenon is next.


However...Alvin Robertson, Mo Cheeks, Elliott, Willie Anderson and Drob in 1989?

I kinda wish they had never traded Johnny Dawkins. Yes, he ended up ending his career because of injuries, but who's to say what would have happened if they had kept him.

A lineup of Robertson, Dawkins, Robinson, Elliott, and Willie Anderson would have been weaker in 1989 than the actual lineup with Cheeks and Cummings, but would have had unlimited potential in the upcoming years.

Crap, that would have been the quickest lineup in NBA history.

[ShoogarBear]

My guess, when push comes to shove, is that Manu's 2005 playoff heroics will barely overcome Parker's statistically superior regular seasons.

And also Monroe will not have to worry about starting his car.

[FromWayDowntown]

TC was a flat out stud his first year here...

However...Alvin Robertson, Mo Cheeks, Elliott, Willie Anderson and Drob in 1989?

Hmmm...would have been really interesting considering the team we did have almos took out the eventual conference champions...but TC was a big reason for that...so were Brickowski and Wingate.

Cummings was maginificent during the 1990 playoffs, averaging nearly 25 (24.9) and 10 (9.4) while shooting 53% from the floor over 10 games. He was arguably the best Spur in that series against Portland, averaging 25.9 ppg, including 27 points (on 10-21 FG and 7-8 FT) and 10 rebounds in Game 7 at Portland. That was his 4th best scoring output in the series -- he went for 17, 33, 19, 35, 32, 18, and 27.

Say what you will, but when the Spurs drafted Elliott and Anderson in back-to-back years, there wasn't any more room at the inn for Alvin Robertson. I guess they could have brought one of Elliott, Anderson, or Robertson off the bench, but that team was begging for a veteran tough guy who could score and Cummings was all of that. As good as Alvin was, I think the deal to bring Cummings to San Antonio was among the best ever made by this franchise -- not quite as good as Bill Curley for Sean Elliott, but it was still a pretty good one.

[whottt]

Oh I agree about TC, in fact I said so...he was huge against Portland.

Many of those games against Portland Drob was in foul trouble, and Cliff Robinson was matching his output...I am certain Drob fouled out in at least one of them, one of the OT games, and he had an absolutely horrible game in another...and TC was the bigman after that happened.

Put it this way...with the knee injury it's a farily close trade....if TC doesn't wreck his knee, it's clearly a Spurs win.

And we'll always wonder what Willie would have become if not for his shinsplints...

As it stands, his rookie season was his best, and it was a pretty amazing rookie season.

[whottt]

I figure that the top 4 will be Robinson, Duncan, Gervin, Elliott.

I agree that 5-7 will be Parker, Kenon, and Manu in some order.

Statistically, Kenon is the superior player in that group -- for that matter, he's statistically superior to Elliott. But Larry didn't have the longevity with the Spurs that Elliott and Parker have had, and he hasn't had the playoff success that Manu's had.

My guess, when push comes to shove, is that Manu's 2005 playoff heroics will barely overcome Parker's statistically superior regular seasons.

Ginobili ends up in the Top 5, Parker is 6, Kenon is 7.

Elliott is 4. Gervin is 3. Monroe puts and ties Duncan and Robinson for #1.


It's strange to me that Kenon is getting so much credit for only a partial career with the Spurs, while A-Train gets hardly any credit at all for his partial career...

Whatever criteria put Kenon so high should also have done similar for A-Train.

A-Train should be in the HOF and have his jersey retired...

[Nikos]

Was Sean Elliott really better than Ginobili or Parker?

His best season was 1996 @ 20PPG 5.1rpg, 2.7apg in 37MPG. But this was also a higher scoring team then previous Spur teams, playing at a higher pace. Elliott scored at around 21.2ppg per 40. Which is pretty good considering he was a good defender and played heavy minutes.

Parker and especially Ginobili did play much less mpg, but are still a little more prolific as scorers if you factor efficiency and pace. Parker is at about 23ppg per 40, and Manu at 24.8ppg per 40. That edge shrinks when you factor MPG (which is in Elliots favor). But if you factor league and team efficiency and pace, its reasonably close.

Elliott wasn't a good rebounder or passer. But I guess you could give him the edge defensively on both Parker and Manu -- but would it really be a HUGE edge? Elliott is the weakest playermaker between the three.

Am I missing something here? I would think Parker and Manu these past three seasons have the edge of Elliotts best seasons, no?

[FromWayDowntown]

Oh I agree about TC, in fact I said so...he was huge against Portland.

Many of those games against Portland Drob was in foul trouble, and Cliff Robinson was matching his output...I am certain Drob fouled out in at least one of them, one of the OT games, and he had an absolutely horrible game in another...and TC was the bigman after that happened.

I was mostly trying to back you up, for those who might discount just how good Terry Cummings was for the Spurs. I'll never, ever forget the 52 he dropped on Charlotte that first year (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SAS19900131.html), when he found out that he hadn't made the all-star team.

As for the Portland series, you're right about David's foul trouble -- he had at least 5 fouls in 5 games and fouled out of the double OT Game 5 (David fouled out in the first OT of that game).

Cliff Robinson wasn't really matching David's output at any point in that series; Cliff scored 9, 6, 10, 7, 11, 20, and 1 and put up 4, 4, 8, 4, 7, 8, 1 rebounds. Cliffy shot 36% from the floor. David, on the other hand, scored 9, 31, 28, 21, 27, 24, 20 and put up 9, 8, 8, 10, 15, 13, and 16 rebounds while shooting over 50% from the floor.

For the record, here are the game-by-games for Robinson and Cummings during that Portland series

David Robinson
Game 1: 40 min, 3-11 FG, 3-6 FT, 2-7-9 reb, 6 ast, 4 blk, 2 to, 3 pf, 9 pts
Game 2: 33 min, 11-19 FG, 9-11 FT, 5-3-8 reb, 1 ast, 2 blk, 3 to, 5 pf, 31 pts
Game 3: 37 min, 11-14 FG, 6-8 FT, 2-6-8 reb, 4 ast, 8 blk, 1 to, 2 pf, 28 pts
Game 4: 36 min, 7-13 FG, 7-8 FT, 2-8-10 reb, 2 ast, 4 blk, 4 to, 5 pf, 21 pts
Game 5: 43 min, 9-18 FG, 9-15 FT, 8-7-15 reb, 1 ast, 2 blk, 3 to, 6 pf, 27 pts
Game 6: 37 min, 9-17 FG, 6-10 FT, 5-8-13 reb, 0 ast, 6 blk, 2 to, 3 pf, 24 pts
Game 7: 41 min, 7-21 FG, 6-11 FT, 4-12-16 reb, 0 ast, 3 blk, 2 to, 5 pf, 20 pts

Cummings
Game 1: 33 min, 8-17 FG, 1-2 FT, 2-5-7 reb, 1 ast, 4 to, 4 pf, 17 pts
Game 2: 40 min, 15-21 FG, 3-3 FT, 2-5-7 reb, 1 ast, 1 to, 3 pf, 33 pts
Game 3: 34 min, 8-17 FG, 3-4 FT, 2-7-9 reb, 0 ast, 1 blk, 3 to, 5 pf, 19 pts
Game 4: 38 min, 16-26 FG, 3-6 FT, 4-7-11 reb, 4 ast, 1 blk, 0 to, 4 pf, 35 pts
Game 5: 52 min, 9-22 FG (1-1), 13-14 FT, 5-6-11 reb, 3 ast, 4 to, 2 pf, 32 pt
Game 6: 33 min, 7-16 FG, 4-4 FT, 1-6-6 reb, 1 ast, 0 to, 4 pf, 18 pts
Game 7: 44 min, 10-21 FG, 7-8 FT, 4-6-10 reb, 2 ast, 2 to, 4 pf, 27 pts

[venitian navigator]

I see the spurs in tv since the '80, so I've never seen Silas and Kenon play....but I've seen Gilmore, Dawkins, Robertson and, obviously, A.J. and Moore.

So, imho :

1) Gilmore is absolutely in the top ten; he's the strongest man ever in the game and the reason S.A. had a chance to compete with the monster's team that L.A. was in the '80 (I remember the '82 series, and I think that we could have won with some more guys able to play other than the starting five of Moore, Ice, Mitchell, banks and Gilmore; the lakers, for example, had cooper...); he never has been considered for his real value ('cause of the "gentle" stuff), but his presence in the court had an unbelievable effect.

2) I don't know about Silas, but no way A.J. has ever been a strongest play-maker than Moore or Dawkins or even Strickland. Moore has been an all star and the first in ASSIST IN THE LEAGUE. Dawkins was a monster in the college for Duke and in the first times with the spurs was the man winning games by himself...he has been knoked down just by injuries (by the way, like somebody else wrote before me, I would have really liked to see the faster line up of the wotld with Dawkins, Robertson, W. Anderson, Elliott and Robinson plus "cadillac" Anderson); Strickland, for crazy like he's always been, has also won the assist category in the league.

A.J. had (and has) a strong personality and in many games made good decisions, but I won't say that's enough to make him a better/stronger player...quite any year his position was in doubt, also after the title. However, I agree he deserves a lot of credit for what he accomplished, and for the kind of history like a player he had...so, we can say that, like a human being and "effort" player maybe he's been the number one, but for the talent level he's barely in the top 30...

[romain.star]

1st Duncan
2nd Robinson
3rd Gervin
4th TP
5th Manu
6th Elliot

take it for granted

[TDMVPDPOY]

wtf has tp done to get 4th rankn?

imo i put elliot/manu/tp/horry/AJ

[Solid D]

Extra, repetitive consonants are for poetry and not for names. -
Sincerely T.S. Eliot

[exstatic]

Extra, repetitive consonants are for poetry and not for names. -
Sincerely T.S. Eliot
Take that, LJ.

[ShoogarBear]

Extra, repetitive consonants are for poetry and not for names. -
Sincerely T.S. Eliot
Did you know his name was actually S. Elliott, and he just moved the extra T to the front?

[Solid D]

:lol what about the other L?

[ShoogarBear]

Damn.

[FromWayDowntown]

This looks like a job for Letterman:

http://www.pbs.org/itvs/independentspirits/photos/phInCollabLetterman.jpg

[wildbill2u]

Part of the problem with a list like this is that it gets mixed up with at several rating factors that are problematical in themselves:

1. A player's career elsewhere vs. contribution to the Spurs.
2. A player who played on championship teams.
3. A single play or failure that marked the player's contribution to the Spurs.

In category 1, let's put John Lucas, Rod Strickland, Cummings as NBA stars on other teams and even Kenon, Gilmore, Del Negro and Silas whose play was mostly in the ABA. Some players luster is enhanced by career stats, but they may have been lesser players as Spurs. How do you put Del Negro on the list and leave off Lucas or Strickland if you're rating players? Oviously, in that case you're rating longevity vs. talent.

In category 2, you have players like Kerr and Elie who contributed to championships although they might not have been super as individual players for the Spurs or even played with the Spurs for many seasons. I'm sure Elie considers himself a Rocket first and foremost. Did he contribute to a championship, yes, but so did Sean Marks if that is the only criteria. Does one championship season put an Elie above a long term player who contributed season after season? How do you estimate that in the ratings?

Category 3 is probably the least importatant if you consider the player's overall career with the Spurs and in the NBA, but a single play--or failure to make the play-- indelibly prints itself onto our consciouness about the 'greatness' of a player as a Spur.

Horry is venerated for turning around a playoff series with one shot; Rod Strickland made a bad pass in the waning seconds of a playoff series and was the villain who 'lost' the playoffs. If either play was reversed, so would the 'greatness' of the player on the Spurs all time heroes list. Imagine if Strickland makes the play and the Spurs go on to win the championship. He was acknowleged as one of the best PGs in the league and as a hero, he would have been on the list. Now he's a footnote to failures and not even on the list.

[Spurs Brazil]

The top 30 NBA Spurs: No. 8 - Larry Kenon

Web Posted: 02/25/2007 01:00 AM CST


San Antonio Express-News

Thirty years ago, in 1976, the Spurs played their first season in the NBA after being absorbed into the older league along with three other teams from the American Basketball Association. To commemorate the milestone, the Express-News each Sunday will recognize our selections as the 30 greatest NBA Spurs. Here is No. 8:
Larry Kenon, 1975-80: Another player who helped the Spurs make a smooth transition from the ABA to the NBA, Kenon was the left hook to George Gervin's right cross in the Spurs' 1-2 scoring punch during their first four NBA seasons.


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Though he never led the Spurs in scoring — always No.2 behind Gervin — and does not appear in the club's all-time top 10 in games played, he ranks sixth all-time in points scored (6,733). He averaged 21.2 points per game in the four NBA seasons with the Spurs.

He is one of five players in Spurs history to score more than 50 points in a game, with 51 against the Pistons on March 30, 1980, one of the last games he would play for the Spurs.

The 6-fooot-9 forward known as "Special K" also was a workhorse rebounder. He ranks fifth on the Spurs' all-time rebound list (3,217), and led the team in rebounding each of the four NBA seasons he played in San Antonio. He averaged 11.3 rebounds in 1976-77, which ranked 10th in the league.

A two-time NBA All-Star, he was a key performer in the Spurs' run to the Eastern Conference finals in 1979, averaging 21.1 points.

Kenon departed San Antonio after the 1979-80 season, signing as a free agent with the Bulls.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the Spurs page on MySA.com for Nos. 30-8.

[SenorSpur]

Absolutely loved Larry Kenon. He was a true example as to how rebounding was about heart and desire as much as it was positioning and ability. Sure he was 6'9", but he was a skinny beanpole who could run the floor with the grace of a gazelle.

For those who are Special K afficiandos like me, you'll remember one of his signature specialty moves was to soar high for a one-hand defensive rebound and start the break himself! Usually finishing with a thunderous dunk on the other end.

[aaronstampler]

1) Duncan 2) Robinson 3) Gervin 4) Ginobili 5) Parker 6) Elliott, guaranteed.

[wildbill2u]

Absolutely loved Larry Kenon. He was a true example as to how rebounding was about heart and desire as much as it was positioning and ability. Sure he was 6'9", but he was a skinny beanpole who could run the floor with the grace of a gazelle.

For those who are Special K afficiandos like me, you'll remember one of his signature specialty moves was to soar high for a one-hand defensive rebound and start the break himself! Usually finishing with a thunderous dunk on the other end.
I also remember Kenon as a ball-hawking defensive player. I think he got something like 8 steals in one game. (somebody will probably have access to a site with better memory and prove me wrong) :oops

And when he got the steal, he was off to the races. He was exceptionally swift in moving with the ball on the break.

Kenon still works and lives in SA. Last I heard he was still a successful car salesman out at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership.

[ShoogarBear]

Kenon holds the NBA records for steals with 11, set against (I think) the KC-Omaha Royals.

I had also read somewhere that his daughter was a top-notch HS volleyball player.

[samikeyp]

You are correct Shoog...December 1976 at the Kings.

[FromWayDowntown]

For the record, Kenon is #7 on the list, not #8.

The list as it stands
7. Larry Kenon
8. Avery Johnson
9. James Silas
10. Alvin Robertson
11. Mike Mitchell
12. Artis Gilmore
13. Johnny Moore
14. Bruce Bowen
15. Malik Rose
16. Terry Cummings
17. Billy Paultz
18. Dennis Rodman
19. Robert Horry
20. Mark Olberding
21. Steve Kerr
22. Vinny Del Negro
23. Mario Elie
24. Gene Banks
25. Mike Gale
26. Chuck Person
27. Coby Dietrick
28. Dave Corzine
29. Willie Anderson
30. Stephen Jackson



I think Elliott will end up at 4, Ginobili at 5, and Parker at 6. Gervin is a mortal lock to be 3. The question between 1 and 2 (or 1 and 1(a)) is whether keeping the franchise in San Antonio and single-handedly making the team a championship contender will outstrip 3 rings, 3 Finals MVP trophies, and 2 MVPs (along with everything else). My guess is that it won't; that Duncan will be #1 and Dave will be #2.

[jcrod]

For the record, Kenon is #7 on the list, not #8.

The list as it stands
7. Larry Kenon
8. Avery Johnson
9. James Silas
10. Alvin Robertson
11. Mike Mitchell
12. Artis Gilmore
13. Johnny Moore
14. Bruce Bowen
15. Malik Rose
16. Terry Cummings
17. Billy Paultz
18. Dennis Rodman
19. Robert Horry
20. Mark Olberding
21. Steve Kerr
22. Vinny Del Negro
23. Mario Elie
24. Gene Banks
25. Mike Gale
26. Chuck Person
27. Coby Dietrick
28. Dave Corzine
29. Willie Anderson
30. Stephen Jackson



I think Elliott will end up at 4, Ginobili at 5, and Parker at 6. Gervin is a mortal lock to be 3. The question between 1 and 2 (or 1 and 1(a)) is whether keeping the franchise in San Antonio and single-handedly making the team a championship contender will outstrip 3 rings, 3 Finals MVP trophies, and 2 MVPs (along with everything else). My guess is that it won't; that Duncan will be #1 and Dave will be #2.

Robinson also was League Defensive Player, Rebounding Champ, Block Leader and Scoring Leader all things Duncan has yet to do. He was also MVP. I think its 1a and 1b. One is not over the other.

[jcrod]

Oh and before its all said and done, Parker will be over Manu.

[timvp]

I'll guess the Express-News will finish the list off like this:

6) Parker
5) Elliott
4) Ginobili
3) Gervin
2) Robinson
1) Duncan

[timvp]

My main problem with the list so far has been Steve Kerr's placement. He's way, way too high.

Am I the only Spurs fan who remembers he sucked for 99.9% of his time in San Antonio. His first three year stint was a disaster. He couldn't hold down a spot in the rotation and was horrible when called upon in the playoffs.

When he came back to San Antonio, he had his best season. But really, he would have never played in the regular season if Speedy hadn't gotten hurt. In the playoffs in 2003, he had about three quarters in which he played really well. But does that make him the 21st best Spurs player of all-time?

:lmao Yeah, right.

[whottt]

You seriously under-rate Kerr's contributions to the 03 title....as well as during that season. Jack had one good year....was it better than any of Kerr's? Yeap. Did he hit that many more big shots than Kerr during the playoffs that year inspite of starting? No he didn't...and he had some clunker perfomances too.

No one remember how poorly Jack shot against LA...

And you are seriously undervaluing Kerr's big shots against the Mavs. Kerr was the key to not having the huge late choke jobs that plagued that team due to offensive stagnation.

Recognize...you act like hitting two 3 pointers in the playoffs is something anyone could do :fro

[whottt]

And there's no way you can rank Duncan ahead of Robinson while Duncan is still playing...

Duncan probably will take it one day, but what Dave did was more than enough to keep the spot while Duncan is active...

Dave gave a career, a complete and total HOF career...and gave SA a great citizen.

Duncan may wind up playing 5 years with the Lakers or something....you definitely can't rank him over Dave while he is playing. And it'll be a close argument even after he retires. I haven't resolved it yet...Dave did a lot.


I think Gervin is 1b as well. I mean he was the one that put SA on the Map in basketball.

[timvp]

You seriously under-rate Kerr's contributions to the 03 title
He had 22 points in 10 games in those playoffs. He had two good games: 12 points in Game 6 against the Mavs and 6 points in Game 5 against the Nets.

That's it. What else did he do? He hit the shots people remember in that Game 6 versus the Mavs, but that comeback was more because of Stephen Jackson and Malik Rose. Kerr just hit the wide open daggers with the worst defender of the century guarding him.


....as well as during that season.
Beno's year last year blows Kerr's 2003 regular season out of the water. In fact, Beno has done more in his three regular seasons with the Spurs than Kerr did.

You look at just the stats and you'd think Beno was the 21st best player in franchise history.


Jack had one good year....was it better than any of Kerr's? Yeap. Did he hit that many more big shots than Kerr during the playoffs that year inspite of starting? No he didn't
:lmao

Kerr scored 22 points in 10 playoff games that year. Jackson scored 23 points in his first career playoff game for the Spurs that year. In the entire playoffs, Jackson scored 307 points.

Kerr hit 7 shots total. Maybe 4 of those were big shots. If you go back and count, Jackson had at least three or four times that. He had more than 4 big shots just counting Game 6 of the Mavs series and the championship game alone.


...and he had some clunker perfomances too. No one remember how poorly Jack shot against LA...
Kerr had a clunker three year stretch as a Spur. Do you remember how bad Kerr was during the '99 playoff run?


And you are seriously undervaluing Kerr's big shots against the Mavs. Kerr was the key to not having the huge late choke jobs that plagued that team due to offensive stagnation.
Rewatch that game notice how the players who put the Spurs in a position to win the game were Jackson and Rose.


Recognize...you act like hitting two 3 pointers in the playoffs is something anyone could do :fro
I would be surprised by your Kerr love but Kerr is like Shane Heal if Shane Heal had 1.5 good games over a four year playoff stretch.

[ShoogarBear]

I already said before that there is no way Kerr, by any measure you can name, ranks over Elie or Mike Gale or Stephen Jackson. Even if you want to weight everything towards playoff performance, Jackson and Elie rank above Kerr.

Hell, JAREN Jackson ranks above Kerr.

[ShoogarBear]

Kerr just hit the wide open daggers with the worst defender of the century guarding him.Nash wasn't defending him. He was actually RUNNING AWAY from him.

[whottt]

You act like I didn't watch the Mavs series or something...

Fact is Jackson won some big games, but he also put us in some holes as well...he had 7 TO's in the first half in game 6 VS NJ...c'mon man....get real.

And it's funny that Smitty and Hedo get bagged on for choking ass against the Lakers but Jack gets a free pass for making them look like Jordan against LA.

True, he was being defended and they weren't....but he was invisible against LA.


Put it this way...Kerr did contribute to other championship teams...Jack hasn't done shit except fuck his teams over.


You saying you'd take Jack's career over Kerr's?

I wouldn't.

Jack's career is disappointing other than his year with the Spurs....Kerr overachieved.


A bigger travesty is Vinny Del Negro's ranking....

Rod Strickland deserves to be on this list before Vinny.

Kerr played an invaluable role in 03...stop the hate.

I agree he's not the 21st best Spur in history...but you guys are trying to downplay his contributions...he made definite contributions to that TITLE, that puts him over a lot of players that had better statistical careers for this team. Add to that that he was popular in town while...

Never mind.


Kerr's ranking is as justified as Mister AJ's. Yannow....mascot like popularity goes a long way. I shouldn't have to explain that to a couple of members of the AJ Jersey Retirement Commitee....

[timvp]

You act like I didn't watch the Mavs series or something...Not even really the Mavs series. More like the one game. Kerr didn't do anything the rest of the series.

Fact is Jackson won some big games, but he also put us in some holes as well...he had 7 TO's in the first half in game 6...c'mon man....get real. How many games did Kerr win in his four years in the playoffs with the Spurs? Maybe one? Probably more like zero. The Spurs were winning that game before Kerr put in the daggers.


And it's funny that Smitty and Hedo get bagged on for choking ass against the Lakers but Jack gets a free pass for making them look like Jordan against LA.

True, he was being defended and they weren't....but he was invisible against LA. It's true that Jackson sucked against the Lakers. But I know that you know that Phil Jackson wasn't going to let Jack get open shots. Phil is the master at figuring out the other team's chokers and making them beat his teams. Stephen Jackson has a lot of holes in his game, but hitting wide open pressure shots isn't one of them.


Put it this way...Kerr did contribute to other championship teams...Jack hasn't done shit except fuck his teams over.

You saying you'd take Jack's career over Kerr's?

I wouldn't.

Jack's career is disappointing other than his year with the Spurs....Kerr overachieved.This list is about the best Spurs of all-time ... not a list of who had the best careers who also happened to play for the Spurs.

I agree that Kerr had the better career. Five championship rings. Probably earned three and a half of those. Jackson's career, on the other hand, pretty much ended the day his agent forced him out of San Antonio.

But looking just at their San Antonio careers, Jackson was waaay better while Kerr is closer to Beno level than he is Top 20 level. If Beno stayed in San Antonio long enough, he too might hit a couple big shots in a game in the playoffs.


A bigger travesty is Vinny Del Negro's ranking....
Vinny Del Negro >>>> Steve Kerr. Del Negro pretty much sucked but his stats destroyed any stats Kerr ever put up. 1.5 good playoff games over 4 years doesn't change the fact that Kerr put up worse stats in his time with the Spurs than Beno Udrih.


Rod Strickland deserves to be on this list before Vinny. Strickland >>>> Kerr.

Kerr played an invaluable role in 03...stop the hate. 2.2 points per game. You can put a value on that.


I agree he's not the 21st best Spur in history...but you guys are trying to downplay his contributions...he made definite contributions to that TITLE, that puts him over a lot of players that had better statistical careers for this team. Add to that that he was popular in town while...

Never mind. Kerr goes down as probably a top ten most popular Spur of all-time. That's the only reason he would ever make a list like this.

If Vinny Del Negro was as well liked and did TV after his retirement, he'd be way ahead of Kerr in a list.


Kerr's ranking is as justified as Mister AJ's. Yannow....mascot like popularity goes a long way. I shouldn't have to explain that to a couple of members of the AJ Jersey Retirement Commitee.
If AJ hit threes he'd be your favorite player.

Don't lie.

:hat

[ShoogarBear]

Put it this way...Kerr did contribute to other championship teams...Jack hasn't done shit except fuck his teams over.


You saying you'd take Jack's career over Kerr's?

I wouldn't.

Jack's career is disappointing other than his year with the Spurs....Kerr overachieved.
And how does any of this have anything to do with ranking their contributions to the Spurs?



A bigger travesty is Vinny Del Negro's ranking....

Rod Strickland deserves to be on this list before Vinny.
Maybe, but not the point of discussion.



Kerr played an invaluable role in 03...stop the hate.

I agree he's not the 21st best Spur in history
Then what exactly are we doing here?


...but you guys are trying to downplay his contributions...he made definite contributions to that TITLE, that puts him over a lot of players that had better statistical careers for this team. Add to that that he was popular in town while...
If by "downplaying his contributions" means saying that he isn't the 21st greatest Spur, then you are correct. But isn't that what you just did?

If you want to talk about career contributions to the team and community, then Mike Gale ranks above him. If you want to talk about big games in the playoffs, then both Jaren and SJax rank above him. He's ridiculously overrated on this list.

[timvp]

Kerr as a Spur
2603 minutes
761 points
188 assists
.417 field goal percentage

Beno as a Spur
2449 minutes
1001 points
335 assists
.424 field goal percentage

Either Beno is a top ten Spur of all-time or Kerr is seriously overrated in this list.

[whottt]

I don't think you two are deliberately trying to have a bad argument...you just can't help yourselves.

Youy are trying to rate Kerr based on statistical production when in fact, his inclusion on this list is because of a handful of big shots and popularity....and I'd argue that whether or not his ranking is in error, I doubt we win the title that year without him.

You aren't even remembering the incident against the Mavs that got him off the bench...when everyone was choking their throws and Duncan flat out told Pop to put him in the game...

Little things like that...Kerr was an invaluable steadying influcent on a team that was heavily reliant on some young and inconsistent players....what was he during the playoffs that year? Consistent...when he was put in, he hit his shots. This team would have about 5 more titles right now had it had simple contributions like that in some other years of Robinson and Duncan's careers.

We might have beaten the Lakers in 2002 if we had Kerr(and Pop had played him).

Kerr had one truly shitty year here...98-99...the rest of the time Pop just wouldn't play him. It wasn't until Mo Cheeks played him against us and he tore us a new asshole that Pop realized guys who can hit open shots are good to have around.

And if not for Duncan I doubt Pop would have played him in 03...

Just because Pop doesn't play the guys don't mean they suck....Horry didn't give us a game 5 VS Det last year because he wasn't on the court to do it...

[timvp]

Kerr as a Spur in the playoffs
244 minutes
76 points
20 assists
.409 field goal percentage

Beno as a Spur in the playoffs
289 minutes
103 points
30 assists
.352 field goal percentage

Playoff studs.

:drunk

[Kori Ellis]

Kerr's ranking is obviously just based on the game against the Mavs and the fact that he was very popular here. (And still is, despite the fact he chose to be affiliated with the Suns rather than the Spurs upon retirement.)

He never did much in a Spurs uniform, other than helping the Spurs win that game (and consequently series).

I just think that LJ/Shoog are saying that other Spurs deserve to be ranked higher.

I also think Whottt is one of those unathletic white guys (that relates to Kerr) who was calling into the radio station for years saying, "Why doesn't Pop play Steve Kerr more?"

:drunk

[ShoogarBear]

We said Kerr was overrated at #21.

You argued with us, and THEN AGREED.

Who has the bad argument?

[ShoogarBear]

Kerr as a Spur in the playoffs
244 minutes
76 points
20 assists
.409 field goal percentage

Beno as a Spur in the playoffs
289 minutes
103 points
30 assists
.352 field goal percentage

Playoff studs.

:drunkThe only true measure of a guard is 3-point shoottting.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

wait, so had we dropped game 6 against the mavs in 2003 we would've lost game 7 as well?


I think the mavs were lucky to win game 1 of that year, and I think especially with Dirk out for part of that series, we were definitely the better team.

So while Kerr's game was amazing, I don't think his impact on game 6 against the mavs was as great as say Robert Horry's impact on the Pistons series from game 5 (where we definitely would've lost had we dropped game 5)

Mostly because I believe we would've won a game 7 at home against dallas back in 2003

[timvp]

Youy are trying to rate Kerr based on statistical production when in fact, his inclusion on this list is because of a handful of big shots and popularity....and I'd argue that whether or not his ranking is in error, I doubt we win the title that year without him. 2.2 points per game would be impossible to make up. You are right.


You aren't even remembering the incident against the Mavs that got him off the bench...when everyone was choking their throws and Duncan flat out told Pop to put him in the game...Link? Never happened.


Little things like that...Kerr was an invaluable steadying influcent on a team that was heavily reliant on some young and inconsistent playersIf you want to name his as a top Spurs assistant coach of all-time, I'd list him in the top ten. But when it comes to playing basketball and he had one and a half big games in four years, you can't put him as the 21st best Spur of all-time.


....what was he during the playoffs that year? Consistent
He hit seven shots. You can't really tell how consistent or inconsistent he was. He played less than Beno did in '05.


...when he was put in, he hit his shots. This team would have about 5 more titles right now had it had simple contributions like that in some other years of Robinson and Duncan's careers. 2.2 points per game while playing only 40% of the playoff games wouldn't have won two more championships.



We might have beaten the Lakers in 2002 if we had Kerr(and Pop had played him).Why stop there? Maybe if Kerr would have been more of a steadying force in 2001, the Spurs would have beat the Lakers that year too.

Reality is that in 2001, Kerr played 30 minutes against the Lakers and didn't score a point. :lol


Kerr had one truly shitty year here...98-99...the rest of the time Pop just wouldn't play him. How many minutes should Pop have sit thru in 2001 when Kerr couldn't knock down a shot against the Lakers? Zero points in 30 minutes. Should he have just kept him out there for defensive purposes?


And if not for Duncan I doubt Pop would have played him in 03...whottt folklore.

In the 2003 playoff run, I'd say Kevin Willis was a bigger part of that championship. He scored more than double the amount of points Kerr did and was a huge reason that the Spurs got by the Lakers. He made Shaq run and Shaq couldn't keep up.

Who would whottt say was a bigger part of the 2003 championship -- Willis or Kerr?

[ShoogarBear]

FWIW, I've also always heard that it was Duncan who asked Pop to play Kerr against the Mavs in Game 6.

[timvp]

FWIW, I've also always heard that it was Duncan who asked Pop to play Kerr against the Mavs in Game 6.
That's cuz whottt has claimed that since it happened. Yet I've asked for a link for four years now and never got one.

I'll gladly be wrong if whottt could supply a link or tell me where I could find where it says Duncan asked for Kerr to be put in the game. The only reason I think he was put into the game was because Parker had food poisoning and Speedy Claxton was playing horribly.



P.S.

I'm glad the Express-News didn't try to squeeze Speedy into the list :lol

[ShoogarBear]

wait, so had we dropped game 6 against the mavs in 2003 we would've lost game 7 as well?


I think the mavs were lucky to win game 1 of that year, and I think especially with Dirk out for part of that series, we were definitely the better team.

So while Kerr's game was amazing, I don't think his impact on game 6 against the mavs was as great as say Robert Horry's impact on the Pistons series from game 5 (where we definitely would've lost had we dropped game 5)

Mostly because I believe we would've won a game 7 at home against dallas back in 2003If you remember, the Spurs lost game 5 to the Dirkless Mavs after blowing a ~15 point lead in the SBC. A loss in game 6 would have really been a gigantic psychological blow.

Maybe they would have won game 7, but I sure wouldn't have wanted to take that risk.

[ShoogarBear]

That's cuz whottt has claimed that since it happened. Yet I've asked for a link for four years now and never got one.I think I remember a Buck Harvey column that stated that, but I don't know if the archives at the E-N will go back that far.

[whottt]

If TimVP had actually watched the Mavs series...he'd know it was game 4...he'd also know that it was easy to see Duncan saying it to Pop as they cut to a commercial.


And secondly...Pop got owened by Peter Vescey in the finals too for not playing Kerr in game 4...next game, he was in.


However it's already obvious that TimVP did not watch that series as evidenced by his continual dismissal of Kerr's contributions...and in fact seems to forget that teams penchant for choking.

We didn't choke in any of Kerr's games....we choked in the games he didn't get on the court when we were in lead blowing mode.


I'd say Willis and Kerr's contributions were probably about equal...although I'd give the nod to Willis because Willis' came against the big bad Lakers and Shaq,...that FT put back he had was huge.


Incidentally I'd say Willis has a good argument for being on this list....that half court shot...

But Willis does get a black mark for trying to murder Scott Williams.

[timvp]

If TimVP had actually watched the Mavs series...he'd know it was game 4...he'd also know that it was easy to see Duncan saying it to Pop as they cut to a commercial. You mean the game in which Kerr played one minute?

So this legend of Duncan telling Pop to put Kerr on the floor exists because of a whottt lip reading?

Classic.


However it's already obvious that TimVP did not watch that series as evidenced by his continual dismissal of Kerr's contributions...and in fact seems to forget that teams penchant for choking.

We didn't choke in any of Kerr's games....we choked in the games he didn't get on the court when we were in lead blowing mode.
There were two "Kerr games" in those playoffs. And how was Game 6 against the Mavs a matter of the Spurs choking? They just sucked until the fourth and then pulled it out.


I'd say Willis and Kerr's contributions were probably about equal...although I'd give the nod to Willis because Willis' came against the big bad Lakers and Shaq,...that FT put back he had was huge.
Willis' per minute production in those playoffs were off the charts good. His ability to guard Shaq and then make him run might have been a top five reason why the Spurs were finally able to beat the Lakers.



Incidentally I'd say Willis has a good argument for being on this list....that half court shot...

:lmao @ three point shooting always being a factor with whottt.


But Willis does get a black mark for trying to murder Scott Williams.

:lol ... Yeah, that might have been the cheapest most deadliest shot I've seen on a basketball court that nobody really remembers.

[whottt]

You mean the game in which Kerr played one minute?

Yes and that was why he was put on the court...because no one could hit a fucking FT. Don't act like you've never seen that happen with our Spurs before...




So this legend of Duncan telling Pop to put Kerr on the floor exists because of a whottt lip reading?

Classic.

It's not just lip reading...it's clear what Duncan wants...he's sitting there pointing at Kerr and the Spurs are choking ass at the FT line...can't even hit their T's.



There were two "Kerr games" in those playoffs. And how was Game 6 against the Mavs a matter of the Spurs choking? They just sucked until the fourth and then pulled it out.


How we forget things like Hackabowen and the fact that Nowitzki wasn't even playing...




Willis' per minute production in those playoffs were off the charts good. His ability to guard Shaq and then make him run might have been a top five reason why the Spurs were finally able to beat the Lakers.

I'll agree to an extent. Drob was the real D on Shaq in that series....and if you doubt this look at how bad we got our asses whipped when he fouled out in 12 minutes.




:lmao @ three point shooting always being a factor with whottt.


Slick...your success in the D League is starting to go to your head...don't think any ownership there transfers...there's more to the real game than stats.

Todays trivia question...what was the score when Willis hit that shot?

What was the final score? You saying every little bit didn't help? Especially considering all the chokes against LA the previous 2 years?

Anyone of our guys hitting a 3 against LA was big back then...that was why we couldn't beat them.



:lol ... Yeah, that might have been the cheapest most deadliest shot I've seen on a basketball court that nobody really remembers.

I've always wondered what Williams did to him to get that kinda reaction out of Willis...he definitely pissed Willis off.

[whottt]

I also think Whottt is one of those unathletic white guys (that relates to Kerr) who was calling into the radio station for years saying, "Why doesn't Pop play Steve Kerr more?"

:drunk


You know what's funny? I remember getting into a big argument with Ghost Writer when we got Kerr back and saying that he could be the difference in a title if Pop puts him on the court when Duncan is doubled...

It was good enough for Phil Jackson and Jordan...so why wouldn't it be good for DRob, Tim Duncan and Gregg Pop? Especially when their shooters are choking ass wide open.


Race and athleticism have nothing to do with my backing of Kerr...but I do think it has something to do with people not wanting to give him credit :smokin


I like guys that can hit open shots on teams when their bigmen are being double teamed...like Brent Barry, and Steve Kerr, and Robert Horry, and Stephen Jackson, and Jaren Jackson and Mario Elie.


I don't like guys that all of a sudden pick the freaking Lakers(or team nemesis x) to have their off game when being left open...

Like Hedo and Smitty and Terry Porter and Danny Ferry...and Vinny and AJ.

You guys over-rate defense and under-rate perimeter scoring(mainly because we have it now). I'm not over-rating shooting....it's been the difference for us every year since 89 until last year.

[sabar]

I'm OK with Kerr's placement personally.

I know the express-news won't rank them like this, but is what I would pick:

6) Ginobili
5) Elliott
4) Parker
3) Gervin
2) Duncan
1) Robinson

[timvp]

Yes and that was why he was put on the court...because no one could hit a fucking FT. Don't act like you've never seen that happen with our Spurs before...So this four year fairy tale you concocted was because you think you saw Duncan tell Pop to put Kerr on the court to hit free throws?


It's not just lip reading...it's clear what Duncan wants...he's sitting there pointing at Kerr and the Spurs are choking ass at the FT line...can't even hit their T's. Kerr goes 2-for-2 at the line in that game in one minute. Should have made the hall of fame on that game alone.


How we forget things like Hackabowen and the fact that Nowitzki wasn't even playing...
Again, that team was known for blowing big leads. But that wasn't the case in that game.


I'll agree to an extent. Drob was the real D on Shaq in that series....and if you doubt this look at how bad we got our asses whipped when he fouled out in 12 minutes. Yeah, that's why I said top five. Duncan's dominance, David's D and Manu's game breaking were up there.


Slick...your success in the D League is starting to go to your head...don't think any ownership there transfers...there's more to the real game than stats.

Todays trivia question...what was the score when Willis hit that shot?

What was the final score? You saying every little bit didn't help? Especially considering all the chokes against LA the previous 2 years?

Anyone of our guys hitting a 3 against LA was big back then...that was why we couldn't beat them.
Three-pointers = Championships.

Got it.

[timvp]

You know what's funny? I remember getting into a big argument with Ghost Writer when we got Kerr back and saying that he could be the difference in a title if Pop puts him on the court when Duncan is doubled...
You said the same thing about Shane Heal.


It was good enough for Phil Jackson and Jordan...so why wouldn't it be good for DRob, Tim Duncan and Gregg Pop? Especially when their shooters are choking ass wide open. Zero points in 30 minutes against the Lakers in 2001. What happened?



Race and athleticism have nothing to do with my backing of Kerr...but I do think it has something to do with people not wanting to give him credit :smokin
I'll take the :smokin to mean that you are joking. For the record, Vinny Del Negro and Will Perdue were better Spurs. Danny Ferry, too. I'd say Danny Ferry's Game 2 against the Suns was a much bigger and more important performance than Kerr in Game 6 against the Mavs.

Take out that Game 6 performance by Kerr and it'd be hard to argue that Kerr had a better Spurs career than Beno.



I like guys that can hit open shots on teams when their bigmen are being double teamed...like Brent Barry, and Steve Kerr, and Robert Horry, and Stephen Jackson, and Jaren Jackson and Mario Elie.

Brent Barry is another guy who should be on the list before Steve Kerr.


I don't like guys that all of a sudden pick the freaking Lakers(or team nemesis x) to have their off game when being left open... Uh, Kerr never scored a point against the Lakers in the playoffs while with the Spurs. In '99, '01 and '03, Kerr was 0-fer.


Like Hedo and Smitty and Terry Porter and Danny Ferry...and Vinny and AJ. If you give extra credit to Kerr for his veteran influence on the '03 team, where's the Steve Smith love? He took Stephen Jackson and Tony Parker under his wing and got them to play beyond their years.


You guys over-rate defense
Classic. The Spurs won three championships with defense, yet I supposedly overrate it.


and under-rate perimeter scoring(mainly because we have it now). I'm not over-rating shooting....it's been the difference for us every year since 89 until last year.Scoring 2.2 points per game while playing in 10 of the 24 playoff games is underrated. Take out the two games Kerr did anything and he averaged 0.5 points per game in those playoffs.

I didn't understand Spurs fans' love affair with Kerr when he was here and it baffles me even more today.

[whottt]

So this four year fairy tale you concocted was because you think you saw Duncan tell Pop to put Kerr on the court to hit free throws?

I know it happened and I probably have it on DVD...specifically in for Bruce Bowen. I am not going to guarantee I still have it, but I'll look.

It's not like it was a big mystery it happened. We were in the chatroom and I wasn't the only one that saw it.













Kerr goes 2-for-2 at the line in that game in one minute. Should have made the hall of fame on that game alone.

Or by your standards, had his jersey retired



Again, that team was known for blowing big leads. But that wasn't the case in that game.

Mayap that is because Kerr started coming in for Bowen?

It's like Duncan said, fuck this worrying about Bruce's feelings shit Pop, something to that effect.


Yeah, that's why I said top five. Duncan's dominance, David's D and Manu's game breaking were up there.

That was pretty much it...but Duncan didn't do jack when he had to guard Shaq early in that series.



Three-pointers = Championships.

Got it.



Sincerely, Merio Elie, Robert Horry, etc.

It's a shame that your man-love for AJ requires you to hate an entire shot simply to justify his crappy shooting....


3 pointers = a hell of a lot more championships than Avery Johnson =

[lebomb]

And there's no way you can rank Duncan ahead of Robinson while Duncan is still playing...

Duncan probably will take it one day, but what Dave did was more than enough to keep the spot while Duncan is active...

Dave gave a career, a complete and total HOF career...and gave SA a great citizen.

Duncan may wind up playing 5 years with the Lakers or something....you definitely can't rank him over Dave while he is playing. And it'll be a close argument even after he retires. I haven't resolved it yet...Dave did a lot.





I completely disagree with this.....Duncan is and should be #1. When did David Robinson step up in a BIG game for the Spurs??? (Playoff games)? He usually got smoked by Akeem. We never went to the finals with David Robinson, but won 3 championships with Duncan. Duncan has ALWAYS stepped up his game in the playoffs......I think Robinson would fall off in the playoffs. Not saying David wasnt great, but not AWESOME like Duncan is.

3. Gervin
2. Robinson
1. DUNCAN


:clap

[nkdlunch]

I'm OK with Kerr's placement personally.

I know the express-news won't rank them like this, but is what I would pick:

6) Ginobili
5) Elliott
4) Parker
3) Gervin
2) Duncan
1) Robinson

sorry but this top 6 is a lock:
6)Elliott
5)Parker
4)Manu
3)gervin
2)Robinson
1)Duncan

[whottt]

I completely disagree with this.....Duncan is and should be #1. When did David Robinson step up in a BIG game for the Spurs??? (Playoff games)? He usually got smoked by Akeem. We never went to the finals with David Robinson, but won 3 championships with Duncan. Duncan has ALWAYS stepped up his game in the playoffs......I think Robinson would fall off in the playoffs. Not saying David wasnt great, but not AWESOME like Duncan is.

3. Gervin
2. Robinson
1. DUNCAN


:clap


Well when a genius speaks people should listen.

That was the most brilliant pro Duncan argument I have ever seen. I'm convinced. What took you so long to get here?

And to think...all we needed all this time was an enlightened mind to show us how to look at things.

I know all the people wanting Duncan #1 are proud to count you among their number on the basis of your brilliant, articulate and insightful breakdown post above.

[lebomb]

Well when a genius speaks people should listen.

That was the most brilliant pro Duncan argument I have ever seen. I'm convinced. What took you so long to get here?

And to think...all we needed all this time was an enlightened mind to show us how to look at things.

I know all the people wanting Duncan #1 are proud to count you among their number on the basis of your brilliant, articulate and insightful breakdown post above.


Thanks.....it was just in response to your dumb ass reasoning why Robinson should be ranked over Duncan

:rolleyes

[whottt]

Thanks.....it was just in response to your dumb ass reasoning why Robinson should be ranked over Duncan

:rolleyes


Thanks back at ya...and it's interesting to see how the mind of a genius works...you thought my reasoning was dumbass, so therefore you decided to outdumbass me in the reasoning dept...succeeding ADMIRABLY I might add.

Good job. Genius.

[FromWayDowntown]

Thanks back at ya...and it's interesting to see how the mind of a genius works...you thought my reasoning was dumbass, so therefore you decided to outdumbass me in the reasoning dept...succeeding ADMIRABLY I might add.

Good job. Genius.

:lol

[lebomb]

Thanks back at ya...and it's interesting to see how the mind of a genius works...you thought my reasoning was dumbass, so therefore you decided to outdumbass me in the reasoning dept...succeeding ADMIRABLY I might add.

Good job. Genius.


Ok....Ok, I take back the dumb ass part.....my bad. But, your reasoning to make David Robinson #1 wasn't very good. David did alot for the franchise, but Tim has revamped and remade the Spurs. He has put the Spurs on the WORLD map, not just the US map.

[ShoogarBear]

Good to see whottt still can bring the occasional 97 MPH fastball.

[lebomb]

Good to see whottt still can bring the occasional 97 MPH fastball.


Too bad he had a terrible argument as to why Robinson is #1 over Duncan :rolleyes

Hakeem OWNED David Robinson throughout his career.....noone has owned Tim. :nope

[ShoogarBear]

I didn't say he throws it for strikes all the time.