Those of you who get mad when I criticize Pop for heavy doses of 4Down

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Remember tonight. 35 baskets on 28 assists with 3 minutes to play.

We could do this shit every night if Pop would loosen the reigns.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Make that 37 FGs on 30 assists.

[ZStomp]

Hey Spurs are winning year in and year out.

As long as they are winning....

[timvp]

Good point other than the fact the Spurs were running four down more than usual in the first three quarters.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Come on LJ. The offense tonight looked nothing at all like the 4down crap of yesteryear.

Players were moving to the ball and setting screens for each other away from the ball. That's a significant difference from the pass it into Duncan and everyone stand around the perimeter shit they used to run.

[Man Mountain]

Come on LJ. The offense tonight looked nothing at all like the 4down crap of yesteryear.

Players were moving to the ball and setting screens for each other away from the ball. That's a significant difference from the pass it into Duncan and everyone stand around the perimeter shit they used to run.

Then you are complaining about the wrong thing. They were running 4 down for most of the game tonight. Just because the perimeter players moved doesn't mean it's not 4 down.

In the past (when it was worth complaining about) the perimeter guys didn't cut or knock down their shots. That wasn't on Pop.

[td4mvp21]

When Duncan's on, I'm fine with it. But when the double's are heavy and he has no rhythm going, then hell, don't do it. Pop usually does it at the wrong times. Tonight it looked beautiful.

[FromWayDowntown]

Make that 37 FGs on 30 assists.

With 24 turnovers thrown in.

[Mr. Body]

Chicago is incredibly weak inside, Ben Wallace notwithstanding. Running 4Down is a gimme play against them more than most.

[Solid D]

Tim had no assists and 5 turnovers tonight....and yes, they ran 4-down o'plenty.

[Solid D]

Oh and by the way...Beno was one fine PG tonight.

[T Park]

Too bad Beno was one fine ghost against Charlotte when they could've used him.

Nice 4th quarter tonight though.

[The Truth #6]

I don't know the plays. Can someone explain 4 down?

[Solid D]

Tim plays the Power Forward or "4" position. The play 4-down means the "4", normally Timmy, posts up "down" on the low block. There are normally two other players on Timmy's side of the court "ball-side" or "strong side". The offense is initiated and Timmy is fed the ball and he either scores from the post or passes out to an open shooter. It's a hub and spoke type of offense with plenty of spacing. You see Pop go to this half-court set, along with high or side screen/rolls in the 4th quarter.

[The Truth #6]

Tim plays the Power Forward or "4" position. The play 4-down means the "4", normally Timmy, posts up "down" on the low block. There are normally two other players on Timmy's side of the court "ball-side" or "strong side". The offense is initiated and Timmy is fed the ball and he either scores from the post or passes out to an open shooter. It's a hub and spoke type of offense with plenty of spacing. You see Pop go to this half-court set, along with high or side screen/rolls in the 4th quarter.

Thanks. All this time I've been calling it, "Dump it into Tim." 4 Down sounds much more technical and sophisticated.

[Nikos]

I don't know why but this team just doesn't look consistent on offense night to night. A lot of it could be because of Manu's horrible offensive play, and to an extent Duncan's mediocre offense.

But I really wish these guys would turn it up a notch right now. I am tired of seeing this team underachieve offensively. They will always be an elite defense team, but never seem to be close to elite on offense. And to me this is surprising. They have three guys who can score and create for others. There is no reason they shouldn't be a Top 6-7 team offensively in terms of Points Per Possession.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/o_oe.htm

As you can see here they are the 17th best offensive team in the league

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/d_de.htm

Suprise, suprise! #1 team on defense so far this year!

I think it is possible for them to get in the Top 5-6 offenses without comprimising much defense.

Most of this falls on Duncan and Ginobili. They need to play better -- ESPECIALLY Ginobili.

[timvp]

I don't know why but this team just doesn't look consistent on offense night to night. A lot of it could be because of Manu's horrible offensive play, and to an extent Duncan's mediocre offense.

But I really wish these guys would turn it up a notch right now. I am tired of seeing this team underachieve offensively. They will always be an elite defense team, but never seem to be close to elite on offense. And to me this is surprising. They have three guys who can score and create for others. There is no reason they shouldn't be a Top 6-7 team offensively in terms of Points Per Possession.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/o_oe.htm

As you can see here they are the 17th best offensive team in the league

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/d_de.htm

Suprise, suprise! #1 team on defense so far this year!

I think it is possible for them to get in the Top 5-6 offenses without comprimising much defense.

Most of this falls on Duncan and Ginobili. They need to play better -- ESPECIALLY Ginobili.

Eh, offense with this Spurs team won't be an issue. As long as they are defending and rebounding at a high level, they'll get more than enough scoring out of Duncan, Parker and Ginobili. Not to mention all the offensive weapons on the bench.

They could run some gimmick Suns style offense and average 110 and have the fans going nuts. But they know that it slows down in the playoffs and you have to execute in the halfcourt to win.

If this team loses in the playoffs, it'll be on the defensive side of the court.

[Nikos]

Eh, offense with this Spurs team won't be an issue. As long as they are defending and rebounding at a high level, they'll get more than enough scoring out of Duncan, Parker and Ginobili. Not to mention all the offensive weapons on the bench.

They could run some gimmick Suns style offense and average 110 and have the fans going nuts. But they know that it slows down in the playoffs and you have to execute in the halfcourt to win.

If this team loses in the playoffs, it'll be on the defensive side of the court.

They have enough offense to rack up wins in the regular season, but the defensive issues always seem to be inability adjusting to unfavorable matchups. Their team defense is always elite -- so why in the playoffs does the best defensive team of all time struggle at times? Because of random matchup disadvantages and lack of rebounding. Is that something they can really 'fix'? Bad matchups are bad matchups. If the Spurs have to face Dallas again, they will run small ball again. Basically if Elson pans out they should be able to beat Dallas right? Well I think it goes back to their offense. If Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker bring consistent offense as a unit, they can get around these defensive matchup deficiences. I am not sure if the Mavs fans ever thought Ginobili was a tough matchup for them, but he clearly was the best offensive player that series not named Dirk or Duncan. Yet there are a hundred posts about how tough Stackhouse, Harris, Howard, and Terry were to guard. I don't remember many non-Spur fans saying anything other than the Mavs are just a tough to matchup against. No mention of Ginobili or Parker being tough matchups for the Mavs.

If the Spurs don't matchup well defensively again, I beleive they need to instill fear in other teams defenses. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili should impose their offensive will.

I think both ends are equally important, because every year it seems the Spurs aren't as good defensively as they should be in the playoffs. It also seems that their offense is erratic at times. If all three guys are clicking I think their chances of winning increase. No they weren't horrible on offense against Dallas, but if they were more balanced early in the series, it wouldn't have went to a Game 7. Or maybe with Terry the Mavs win Game 6, and the Spurs defense wouldn't have been as rock solid that game?

This team might not be able to get around tough defensive matchups, but their team D is always solid, and they need to be able to impose their offensive will if need be. That is how they can become a better team.

[Zunni]

2-17

11-25

The three point shooting is the can opener for this offense. As timvp pointed out, they ran heavy doses of 4down v Chicago. It just worked better, for the most part, because they didn't dare sit that second defender in Tim's lap when the artillery is out and working. Good shooting also opens up the lane for Parker's game, as evidenced by his 8 assists and 7 FTA in 25 minutes.

[smeagol]

It's easy to play like this when players are hitting their shots. But what if they are shooting like they did against the Bobcats?

Think about it.

[Zunni]

It's easy to play like this when players are hitting their shots. But what if they are shooting like they did against the Bobcats?

Think about it.
Then they lose. How ofter are they going to shoot 12 fucking percent from downtown, though? Not very often, fortunately. That they had a shot to win the game at the end of regulation is a fucking miracle. Of course, it was a 3 pointer, and hit the back iron... ;)

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

In the past (when it was worth complaining about) the perimeter guys didn't cut or knock down their shots. That wasn't on Pop.

If you think that those sets in the playoffs of years past were designed to have lots of movements and the other 4 players just had vapor lock on the perimeter and didn't know what to do other than stand at the three point line, you're fooling yourself.


It's easy to play like this when players are hitting their shots.

It's also easy when players are moving to the basket and setting cross screens for one another, which is a stark contrast from the spot up behind the arc shit of the past.

[Extra Stout]

It's easy to play like this when players are hitting their shots. But what if they are shooting like they did against the Bobcats?

Think about it.
Very few teams are going to win when they shoot 37%. Period. Those kinds of games are going to happen within an 82-game season.

[Extra Stout]

If you think that those sets in the playoffs of years past were designed to have lots of movements and the other 4 players just had vapor lock on the perimeter and didn't know what to do other than stand at the three point line, you're fooling yourself.



It's also easy when players are moving to the basket and setting cross screens for one another, which is a stark contrast from the spot up behind the arc shit of the past.
Pop started to change the Spurs' offensive sets in 2002-03, when he got an influx of young, spry legs that could move on the perimeter.

When the guys on the perimeter were Steve Smith, Terry Porter, and Danny Ferry, he could have lit the court on fire and they still would have been slow and stagnant.

It's kind of remarkable looking back that the Spurs were winning 58 games a year back in the day with the unathletic, creaky, one-dimensional players they had surrounding the Twin Towers after that first title. It goes back to the sheer brilliance of Tim Duncan during his peak (and Dave too). And Pop rode that brilliance.

But that was a long time ago. The Spurs have been versatile on offense since about the middle of the 2002-03 season. They don't go out and score 100 points a game on average because that would require a game pace that compromises their defensive scheme. Well, that, and also because they've sucked at free throws during that whole time.

[SequSpur]

4 down = 3 rings.

[wildbill2u]

I have confidence that Pop can use whatever offense he wants and win with this club but what team and coach wouldn't use a TOP FIFTY player of all time as the focus of your offense?

Did Chicago run their offense away from Jordan? Is Jackson telling LA that they won't be relying on Kobe any more?

[Mavs<Spurs]

When Duncan's on, I'm fine with it. But when the double's are heavy and he has no rhythm going, then hell, don't do it. Pop usually does it at the wrong times. Tonight it looked beautiful.

You best reflected how I feel.

[1Parker1]

Remember tonight. 35 baskets on 28 assists with 3 minutes to play.

We could do this shit every night if Pop would loosen the reigns.


Ahem: 32 points, 12 rebounds, 3 assists on 80% shooting. :smokin

[TDfan2007]

4 down = 3 rings.

I second that.