Q about Iceman

[polandprzem]

This question is to the older spurs fans as Solid and Shoog for excample. :D

To those who've seen George play I wanna ask how he was playing. Well Accually I want to know some details as his defense, his influence and shooting ability. Was he only a midranger and fingerroller?
How his defese was looking? What kind of skills he had in D. And how wa he takeing an adventage on opponents.
His disadventages. No power, no athletic body etc. How his defenders (esp. Jamal Wilkens, and Cooper) were guarding him and how he was guarding opponents.

[LEONARD]

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h30/conradalt/_tufc4720liddell20vs20ortiz12.jpg

He's great, but I think Wand Silva could take him out...

Tito vs Chuck on Dec 30th should be good!! :fro

[Jimcs50]

He played Matador defense

:lol

Nobody could guard him. His offense was so far superior to anyone, that he would get his points against anyone. He could shoot from outside from 25ft on in, so he had no limitations of range. His finger roll was legendary, the shot blocker had no chance to block his shots when he drove, because he would just flip it over their outstretched fingers and into the basket.

[nkdlunch]

senile Spurs fan forum

[Jimcs50]

A story that I have told before about Ice's game at Indiana in 1976:


The Pacers had a guard on their team that had the reputation of say a Bruce Bowen, a shut down perimeter player. His nickname was "The Minister of Defense"

So when Ice was scheduled to play that week, the Pacers and a Fried Chicken restaurant offered a promotion to everybody that attended the game. Since they had "The Minister of Defense" they said that if Gervin failed to score his average in the game(30 pts), everyone in the house would get a free chicken dinner. Ice got wind of this promotion apparently.

As Ice left the floor at halftime with 31 pts, he looked right into the camera with that big smile of his and said : "No chicken tonight."

:lol

[polandprzem]

Good one Jimcs

You said he had no limitation of range. But he was shooing below 30% from the 3pt line.

[wildbill2u]

This question is to the older spurs fans as Solid and Shoog for excample. :D

To those who've seen George play I wanna ask how he was playing. Well Accually I want to know some details as his defense, his influence and shooting ability. Was he only a midranger and fingerroller?
How his defese was looking? What kind of skills he had in D. And how wa he takeing an adventage on opponents.
His disadventages. No power, no athletic body etc. How his defenders (esp. Jamal Wilkens, and Cooper) were guarding him and how he was guarding opponents.
NOBODY BUT NOBODY contained Gervin. On defense, he'd simply outscore his counterpart on the other team. I have an autographed stat sheet somewhere from a game where he and Mike Newlin hooked up in a shoot-out. The game went into overtime, but the final stats show Newlin had 45 POINTS!

But Gervin had 63!

When he came into the league he had a very good jumper--but like TD over time those skills seemed to get lost and in his later career he made most of his points on drives with some spectacular shots--and of course the finger roll.

Paul Griffin who came over from New Orleans liked to talk about the night that Gervin went off and set some kind of record on the last night of the season night to win the scoring title against David Thompson of Denver. He said Gervin always would always set the defensive player up and then when he made his move, give out a little laugh (hee, hee) and go in for the shot. He said it was unnerving and he hated to hear that laugh cause he knew what was coming.

He wasn't fast like Tony Parker, but he was taller than most guards and simply couldn't be stopped by defenders. His shotmaking style was unique--and it's unfortunate that the Spurs don't seem to have a whole highlight film of his shots. The very few clips I've seen are all fairly ordinary or the same old stuff. I saw him drive past the backboard once and while in the air going out of bound shoot over the backboard from the back side and swish one in.

He had a lot of the style of Dr. J. Did you know that Dr. J used to say Gervin was the one player he most enjoyed watching.

I've always told folks that every game I ever went to, Gervin made at least one shot that made the cost of the ticket worthwhile, whether we won the game or not. THATS how good he was. :hungry:

[Jimcs50]

Good one Jimcs

You said he had no limitation of range. But he was shooing below 30% from the 3pt line.

The first 4 yrs he was in the NBA, they did not have a 3 pt shot in the NBA, so in his younger years he did not have the chance. When the NBA adopted the shot, nobody was really that good at it because they had not been shooting from that far out for 4 years(since his ABA days), so he lost some range, but he was still one of the best at it of the NBA players at the time.

[polandprzem]

The first 4 yrs he was in the NBA, they did not have a 3 pt shot in the NBA, so in his younger years he did not have the chance. When the NBA adopted the shot, nobody was really that good at it because they had not been shooting from that far out for 4 years(since his ABA days), so he lost some range, but he was still one of the best at it of the NBA players at the time.

In ABA he was 23% from beyond the arc

[polandprzem]

wildbill2u thanks

I want to ask about his play agains Wiolkens and Cooper - those two guys were the toughest to score on. (Gervin words)

[SenorSpur]

This question is to the older spurs fans as Solid and Shoog for excample. :D

To those who've seen George play I wanna ask how he was playing. Well Accually I want to know some details as his defense, his influence and shooting ability. Was he only a midranger and fingerroller?
How his defese was looking? What kind of skills he had in D. And how wa he takeing an adventage on opponents.
His disadventages. No power, no athletic body etc. How his defenders (esp. Jamal Wilkens, and Cooper) were guarding him and how he was guarding opponents.

I'm soooo glad you asked that question. As an ol' skool Spurs fan (sounds funny to even say that), I'll be happy to provide you some insight on the fabled Iceman.

First off, here's his vital stats and accomplishments:

Nickname: Iceman
Height: 6-7; Weight: 185 lbs

Career Statistics

G FG% 3PFG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Stls Blks Pts PPG
791 .511 .297 .844 3,607 4.6 2,214 2.8 941 670 20,708 26.2

Honors: Elected to Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (1996); All-NBA First Team (1978, '79, '80, '81, '82); All-NBA Second Team (1977, '83); Nine-time NBA All-Star (1977-85); All-Star MVP (1980); One of 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996).

First off, I want to emphasize the fact that Ice was not a shooter - he was a scorer supreme. Once of the best the ABA and NBA has ever seen. Ice was the type of player that could wake up at 3:00AM in the morning, walk into a gym without warming up and score 30!. As evidenced by the fact that he led the league in scoring four times. He could score on virtually anyone and at anytime. In fact, he still holds the NBA record for most points scored in a single quarter - 33. On top of that, he was an excellent foul shooter, as well.

Because of his lithe frame, he posessed the gift of being able to twist, turn and maneuver himself in traffic and in the air to launch virtually any shot imagineable. Though he wasn't the first, he was the one player who perfected the art of the "fingeroll" - by far the most famous shot in his vast repertoire of shots. He used this shot much like TP's "teardrop" shot. He'd routinely frustrate his opponents by casually drivng into the lane and launching his patented "fingeroll" over the outstretched arms of the opposing players, softly into the net. It was literally unblockable and virtually automatic once he got into the paint.

Whlle Ice was offensively gifted, his incredible shot-making ability was borne out of many, many hours of hard work and practice. He was always fascinated with shot angles and ball rotation. I remember seeing him in pregame warmups, how he would stand underneath the rim and practice "two-handed" spin shots from both sides of the square. He'd shoot several, from a standing position facing the rim, from both the left and right sides of the glass, then he'd turn his back to the rim and do the same thing from both the left to right sides.

As a result of his hard work and development, he perfected all sorts hook shots (with either hand), running one-handers (either hand), bank shots, up-and-under layups and "oh-by-the-way" dunks. These were dunks that he would throw down as his body passed the front of the rim. He would reach back over his shoulder for the dunk. He wasn't much of a dunker later in his career as we was earlier, but could still throw down an occasional facial in traffic or on a breakaway.

His best "highlight reel-worthy" shots were not dunks, they were spectacular shots with various degrees of difficulty while in traffic. Many of his shots that were considered spectacular and looked difficult to fans and opposing players were very routine for him.

He had a simple philosophy about scoring, of which he passed onto Michael Jordan during the one season they played together. His simple goal was to score at least 7 points a quarter (3 baskets and at least 1 FT). To maximize this objective, he believed in taking good, high percentage shots - not the "wild-ass" variety that you see prolific scorers take today. With all the points he scored, a more incredible feat is the fact he shot over 50% for his entire career!

At 6.8", 185 lbs, George was a wiry, skinny kind of dude. He wasn't very quick or very fast. He wasn't powerful or exceptionally strong. He was simply smooth as silk. He often looked as though he was moving in slow motion as compared to the rest of the players.

Unfortunately, he wasn't much of a defensive player either. He was famous for the "matador-style" of playing defense. In fact, there was an old sayng that "Ice's best defense was his offense", meaning that he could be counted on to make his opponent work hard trying to guard him at the other end. His most famous defensive tactic was the Karl Malone-esque "ball swipe". There's no way he could have flourished for a coach that demanded the type of defensive excellence that the Spurs are famous for today.

Because he had very long arms and big hands, he could get the occasional blocked shot and was a decent rebounder when he played the SF position. It was after he was converted to SG in his ABA days, that he went onto scoring greatness.

I was fortunate enough to have watched the Iceman throughout his Spurs career, up until the time he was traded to Chicago to make room for an up and-coming rookie Alvin Robertson in 1985. I cannot recall him ever fouling out of a game. I'm sure he did, I just don't remember. The player most often compared to him is Alex English.

For more information on the great Iceman, check out his bio on the NBA History website.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/gervin_bio.html

Hope this helps.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

No offense, Wildbill, but I think Ice's 63 point night (that you said you have the autographed program for) WAS the night he battled Thompson for the scoring title. The NBA record he set that night was 33 pts in a quarter.

[wildbill2u]

Though he wasn't the first, he was the one player who perfected the art of the "fingeroll" - by far the most famous shot in his vast repertoire of shots. He used this shot much like TP's "teardrop" shot. He'd routinely frustrate his opponents by casually drivng into the lane and launching his patented "fingeroll" over the outstretched arms of the opposing players, softly into the net."

Good point about the finger roll comparison with Parker's 'teardrop." It's basically the same shot but because Parker is so much shorter he has to start it much lower, the trajectory is usually up and over. Therefore it has a better chance of being blocked.

Ice's finger roll often was released at the same height as the basket or higher so the trajectory and distance to the hoop was shorter and it was almost like a dunk as he softly laid it in.

[SenorSpur]

A quick story:
Rolando Blackman told the story fo the first time he played against Gervin. Ice took him to school for the tune of 40 points. During one sequence of the game, Gervin had tuned up Blackman for about 10 straight points. On the trip back downcourt and prior to a timeout, Blackman had his head down. Iceman walked over to him and said, "Don't worry about young fella, I do that to everybody". :lol

[FromWayDowntown]

No offense, Wildbill, but I think Ice's 63 point night (that you said you have the autographed program for) WAS the night he battled Thompson for the scoring title. The NBA record he set that night was 33 pts in a quarter.

The night that Ice had 33 in the 2nd quarter and 63 for the night was the last game of the 1977-78 season. Ice had that 63 in New Orleans against the Jazz, in a game that the Spurs lost by 21 (153-132). David Thompson was trying to overcome Ice earlier that day in the Nuggets game at Detroit. IIRC, Skywalker had something like 73 that afternoon.

And, as I just read, Ice's 63 was just enough to give Gervin the scoring crown, 27.22 points per game to Thompson's 27.15, the tightest one-two finish ever.

[Solid D]

Gervin did not play much defense. He flagged at it and he got some steals but he was like McGrady, Pierce, Dirk Nowitzki, etc. Ice joked about it and still does, as I'm sure you know.

I never thought of Ice as a three point shooter. He scored from anywhere, mind you, but most of his shots were 20 feet and in. He was totally smooth and fluid. His lack of bulk and non-physical style kept him from going to the FT line more often. I used to think Ice got no credit from the officials when he went to the hoop.

If you want to see a FT shooting style that resembles Ice's, watch AK47. His elbow points outward just like Ice's did. The only difference is that Kirilenko misses more of his FTs than Ice did.

The Spurs, especially under Doug Moe, ran uptempo and motion offenses. Ice was right hand dominant but he could score with either hand quite naturally. Gervin's role was to score, not play defense.

[pjjrfan]

The thing I remember about Ice, was how he would move the ball as he drove the lane it seemed like he always showed it and made people swipe at it, but he had an uncanny way of moving it where no one could touch it and then he would lay it up or fingerroll it or shoot it from close range. I lived in Laredo, and I listened to almost all the Spurs games on the radio, but very few times did I get to go to a game or see him on TV, but in the games I did he was spectacular. I remember reading about all the legal problems the Spurs ran into when they got him from the Squires, and I think the league tried to stop the owner from selling off his team player by player. George gave the Spurs true legitimacy, but I believe it was the work of Drossos and his staff that helped produce what we enjoy now, sometimes I think not enough credit is given to Drossos for what he did for the city of SA and for the Spurs fans.

[Solid D]

Gervin had some amazing shot-making no doubt, but MOST of the time, Ice just scored whenever and however he could in matter-of-fact fashion. He scored with such ease and so often, it was not unusual to catch yourself thinking - "it just didn't seem like Gervin got 40 points" or "36 points" or whatever.

[ShoogarBear]

Just my few additional points:

Gervin was the easiest scorer I've ever seen. That includes MJ, who worked hard for his points and often had to be spectacular. I imagine Wilt may have been in Ice's category, but I never saw him in his prime.

Ice would come down and make, say, a left handed hook three times in a row, then never take the shot the rest of the game. He was just demonstrating he could do it. It was like he was just toying with the league.

I saw him set the HemisFair scoring record with 56 against the San Diego Clippers. He took one hook shot that game from behind the backboard that went over and swished. I'm still not sure if that was a legal shot.

Ice, as most people have already pointed out, wasn't a long-distance shooter. His range was 18 feet in, and I would guess that >60% of his shots came from 15 feet in.

He didn't start out as a horrible defensive player. Mainly because of his height as the first true "big" guard, he presented matchup problems for most 2s, and had a couple of seasons where he racked up 100 blocks and 100 steals. As he became more of a scorer, and realized that people didn't expect him to play defense, he got lazy. He was also a reasonable passer, but that tailed off, too as he worked on maintaining the Iceman role.

The night he scored 63 was the last game of the 77-78 season against the New Orleans Jazz to win the scoring title against David Thompson. Coincidentally, D-Rob was in a similar position in 1994 when he scored 71 against the Clippers late in the year to win the scoring title vs. Shaq.

The "Minister of Defense" for the Pacers whom Gervin lit up was Dudley Bradley, who I don't think has ever been heard from again.

There's a story in David Halberstam's "Breaks of the Game" (which also may have the Dudley Bradley story). One of the refs before the game thought the game ball was bouncing a little funny. So he tossed it to Ice and asked him if he thought it was lopsided. Ice bounced it a couple of times, tossed it back, and shrugged "a ball's a ball". Ice scored like 45 that night. The ref was quoted as saying, "some nights you think it looks like he doesn't really have it, and then you look up in the fourth quarter and he has 45".

[Bob Lanier]

Gervin did play much defense. He flagged at it and he got some steals but he was like McGrady, Pierce, Dirk Nowitzki, etc.
Both Pierce and especially McGrady can be top-notch defenders when they need to be. Gervin never was at that level; Dirk is a reasonable comparison.

I agree with the posts that he was the smoothest guard scorer I've ever seen.

[Hook Dem]

For those of you who never got to wittness Gervin at the Hemisphere Arena, you missed a hell of a show! ICCCCCCCCCEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

[Solid D]

Both Pierce and especially McGrady can be top-notch defenders when they need to be. Gervin never was at that level; Dirk is a reasonable comparison.

I agree with the posts that he was the smoothest guard scorer I've ever seen.

Pierce, a top-notch defender? He's a hack when he tries to play defense.

Any way....matter of opinion, I guess.

[wildbill2u]

No offense, Wildbill, but I think Ice's 63 point night (that you said you have the autographed program for) WAS the night he battled Thompson for the scoring title. The NBA record he set that night was 33 pts in a quarter.
No offense taken. I'm pretty sure his total was in the 60s but it might have been only in the 50s. It was a triple overtime game. He probably scored in the sixties range more than once. I can't find the stat sheet cause I've moved and its in a box somewhere. Regardless, it was a hell of a performance by both players.

[ShoogarBear]

According to the NBA guide, Ice only broke 60 once. They only list to 56 points, so his next highest must have been below that.

According to the Spurs media guide (http://www.nba.com/media/spurs/franchise_records_0607.pdf), the HemisFair record of 53 points was set by Gervin in 1980 against the Nuggets. (So I got the team wrong.)

[polandprzem]

Thanks very much.

I saw two of Gervin games, but what I am intersted now is his influence to the game, to spurs. Was he a mental leader?

[MI21]

Solid, Pierce ain't a hack when he plays D. Specifically when he was younger he was a fantastic defender. McGrady used to be a spectacular defender before he was asked to carry the scoring load for Orlando. He did an amazing Job on Dirk the year before last as well.

[MI21]

Btw, really cool stories about Ice. I wish I was old enough to have seen him play.

[SpurYank]

I was watching him play when he was with the Virginia Squires. He knew nothing about defense then nor when he arrived in San Antonio. He reminds me of Henry Aaron telling Yogi Berra when he came to bat and Yogi wanted to talk. "I came to bat, not talk," Aaron told Yogi.

Well, The Ice Man may have said that to every coach he had. "I Came to shoot, not stop anybody."

He was a huge liability on defense. But man, could he score. I've never seen so many opposing players and announcers shake their heads as much as when he made one of his patented impossible shots.

[SenorSpur]

Thanks very much.

I saw two of Gervin games, but what I am intersted now is his influence to the game, to spurs. Was he a mental leader?

From all accounts, he was a great teammate and his smile and personality were infectious - as seen in the many promotional spots he did for the team and the league.

On the court, he was not a fiery leader or an inspirational type guy. In fact, in the early days it was James Silas, not Gervin, who was the man who took over and won games late. Ice, on the other hand, was cool. confident, and a good sportsman who never intentionally showed up his opponents. He was a silent assassin. He was a veteran with all-pro "skins" on the wall. His teammates knew that they were never out of a game because of his prolific scoring prowess.

It's tough to say just what his influence on the game was. I would simply say that it would be that of an unstoppable scorer - perhaps THE most prolific scoring machine to ever wear the black and silver. It may have looked easy to everyone on the outside, but Ice really, really worked on becoming such a great player.

Obviously, Gervin does not have a championship on his resume. While the Spurs were a solid team and a pereninnal 48-53 win team during the majority of his tenure, his teams had only meager playoff success and of course, never reached the ABA or NBA finals.

They did reach the conference finals a few times. The first time was the 1979 Eastern Conference Finals (that's right the Spurs played in the EC back then) against the Washington Bullets. Spurs were up 3 games to 1 and the Bullets came back to win the series in a very, very, poorly officiated and controversial 7th game in Washington. I truly believe had the Spurs advanced they would have beaten the Seattle Supersonics, who went on to win the NBA title that year.

In fact, the only time he played alongside a dominant big man, while with the Spurs, was with Artis Gilmore ('83 - '87). That squad, which featured the fabulous Mike Mitchell and Johnny Moore probably had the most consistent playoff success - winning multiple division titles and reaching the conference finals two straight years. Unfortunately, those Spurs teams were unable to solve the puzzle that was the LA Lakers and the brilliance of Magic, Kareem, Worthy, et all.

[my2sons]

his defense...outscoring his defender 2:1 3:1

[dav4463]

Julius Erving said Ice was his favorite player. At a game last year Dick Bavetta saw Ice in the stands before the game. He pointed up at Ice and said, "You were the best, Simply THE BEST !" He could shoot from anywhere. He preferred driving to the basket. He was as good going under the backboard and reversing to the other side as I've ever seen. He got some blocked shots from behind and the occasional steal, but defense wasn't his primary goal ! He was an underrated passer, especially his off the dribble one-handed bullet pass. He was so quick that he could split doubleteams with ease and the finger-roll was one of the most recognized shots in the NBA.