Gotta love the neocons: "WE MUST bomb Iran"

[ChumpDumper]

Bomb Iran

Diplomacy is doing nothing to stop the Iranian nuclear threat; a show of force is the only answer.
By Joshua Muravchik, JOSHUA MURAVCHIK is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.
November 19, 2006

WE MUST bomb Iran.

It has been four years since that country's secret nuclear program was brought to light, and the path of diplomacy and sanctions has led nowhere.

First, we agreed to our allies' requests that we offer Tehran a string of concessions, which it spurned. Then, Britain, France and Germany wanted to impose a batch of extremely weak sanctions. For instance, Iranians known to be involved in nuclear activities would have been barred from foreign travel — except for humanitarian or religious reasons — and outside countries would have been required to refrain from aiding some, but not all, Iranian nuclear projects.

But even this was too much for the U.N. Security Council. Russia promptly announced that these sanctions were much too strong. "We cannot support measures … aimed at isolating Iran," declared Foreign Minister Sergei V. Lavrov.

It is now clear that neither Moscow nor Beijing will ever agree to tough sanctions. What's more, even if they were to do so, it would not stop Iran, which is a country on a mission. As President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad put it: "Thanks to the blood of the martyrs, a new Islamic revolution has arisen…. The era of oppression, hegemonic regimes and tyranny and injustice has reached its end…. The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world." There is simply no possibility that Iran's clerical rulers will trade this ecstatic vision for a mess of Western pottage in the form of economic bribes or penalties.

So if sanctions won't work, what's left? The overthrow of the current Iranian regime might offer a silver bullet, but with hard-liners firmly in the saddle in Tehran, any such prospect seems even more remote today than it did a decade ago, when students were demonstrating and reformers were ascendant. Meanwhile, the completion of Iran's bomb grows nearer every day.

Our options therefore are narrowed to two: We can prepare to live with a nuclear-armed Iran, or we can use force to prevent it. Former ABC newsman Ted Koppel argues for the former, saying that "if Iran is bound and determined to have nuclear weapons, let it." We should rely, he says, on the threat of retaliation to keep Iran from using its bomb. Similarly, Newsweek International Editor Fareed Zakaria points out that we have succeeded in deterring other hostile nuclear states, such as the Soviet Union and China.

And in these pages, William Langewiesche summed up the what-me-worry attitude when he wrote that "the spread of nuclear weapons is, and always has been, inevitable," and that the important thing is "learning how to live with it after it occurs."

But that's whistling past the graveyard. The reality is that we cannot live safely with a nuclear-armed Iran. One reason is terrorism, of which Iran has long been the world's premier state sponsor, through groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah. Now, according to a report last week in London's Daily Telegraph, Iran is trying to take over Al Qaeda by positioning its own man, Saif Adel, to become the successor to the ailing Osama bin Laden. How could we possibly trust Iran not to slip nuclear material to terrorists?

Koppel says that we could prevent this by issuing a blanket warning that if a nuclear device is detonated anywhere in the United States, we will assume Iran is responsible. But would any U.S. president really order a retaliatory nuclear strike based on an assumption?

Another reason is that an Iranian bomb would constitute a dire threat to Israel's 6 million-plus citizens. Sure, Israel could strike back, but Hashemi Rafsanjani, the former president who was Ahmadinejad's "moderate" electoral opponent, once pointed out smugly that "the use of an atomic bomb against Israel would totally destroy Israel, while [the same] against the Islamic world would only cause damage. Such a scenario is not inconceivable." If that is the voice of pragmatism in Iran, would you trust deterrence against the messianic Ahmadinejad?

Even if Iran did not drop a bomb on Israel or hand one to terrorists, its mere possession of such a device would have devastating consequences. Coming on top of North Korea's nuclear test, it would spell finis to the entire nonproliferation system.

And then there is a consequence that seems to have been thought about much less but could be the most harmful of all: Tehran could achieve its goal of regional supremacy. Jordan's King Abdullah II, for instance, has warned of an emerging Shiite "crescent." But Abdullah's comment understates the danger. If Iran's reach were limited to Shiites, it would be constrained by their minority status in the Muslim world as well as by the divisions between Persians and Arabs.

But such ethnic-based analysis fails to take into account Iran's charisma as the archenemy of the United States and Israel and the leverage it achieves as the patron of radicals and rejectionists. Given that, the old assumptions about Shiites and Sunnis may not hold any longer. Iran's closest ally today is Syria, which is mostly Sunni. The link between Tehran and Damascus is ideological, not theological. Similarly, Iran supports the Palestinian groups Islamic Jihad and Hamas, which are overwhelmingly Sunni (and as a result, Iran has grown popular in the eyes of Palestinians).

During the Lebanon war this summer, we saw how readily Muslims closed ranks across the Sunni-Shiite divide against a common foe (even as the two groups continued killing each other in Iraq). In Sunni Egypt, newborns were named "Hezbollah" after the Lebanese Shiite organization and "Nasrallah" after its leader. As Muslim scholar Vali Nasr put it: "A flurry of anti-Hezbollah [i.e., anti-Shiite] fatwas by radical Sunni clerics have not diverted the admiring gaze of Arabs everywhere toward Hezbollah."

In short, Tehran can build influence on a mix of ethnicity and ideology, underwritten by the region's largest economy. Nuclear weapons would bring regional hegemony within its reach by intimidating neighbors and rivals and stirring the admiration of many other Muslims.

This would thrust us into a new global struggle akin to the one we waged so painfully with the Soviet Union for 40-odd years. It would be the "clash of civilizations" that has been so much talked about but so little defined.

Iran might seem little match for the United States, but that is not how Ahmadinejad sees it. He and his fellow jihadists believe that the Muslim world has already defeated one infidel superpower (the Soviet Union) and will in time defeat the other.

Russia was poor and weak in 1917 when Lenin took power, as was Germany in 1933 when Hitler came in. Neither, in the end, was able to defeat the United States, but each of them unleashed unimaginable suffering before they succumbed. And despite its weakness, Iran commands an asset that neither of them had: a natural advantage in appealing to the world's billion-plus Muslims.

If Tehran establishes dominance in the region, then the battlefield might move to Southeast Asia or Africa or even parts of Europe, as the mullahs would try to extend their sway over other Muslim peoples. In the end, we would no doubt win, but how long this contest might last and what toll it might take are anyone's guess.

The only way to forestall these frightening developments is by the use of force. Not by invading Iran as we did Iraq, but by an air campaign against Tehran's nuclear facilities. We have considerable information about these facilities; by some estimates they comprise about 1,500 targets. If we hit a large fraction of them in a bombing campaign that might last from a few days to a couple of weeks, we would inflict severe damage. This would not end Iran's weapons program, but it would certainly delay it.

What should be the timing of such an attack? If we did it next year, that would give time for U.N. diplomacy to further reveal its bankruptcy yet would come before Iran will have a bomb in hand (and also before our own presidential campaign). In time, if Tehran persisted, we might have to do it again.

Can President Bush take such action after being humiliated in the congressional elections and with the Iraq war having grown so unpopular? Bush has said that history's judgment on his conduct of the war against terror is more important than the polls. If Ahmadinejad gets his finger on a nuclear trigger, everything Bush has done will be rendered hollow. We will be a lot less safe than we were when Bush took office.

Finally, wouldn't such a U.S. air attack on Iran inflame global anti-Americanism? Wouldn't Iran retaliate in Iraq or by terrorism? Yes, probably. That is the price we would pay. But the alternative is worse.

After the Bolshevik takeover of Russia in 1917, a single member of Britain's Cabinet, Winston Churchill, appealed for robust military intervention to crush the new regime. His colleagues weighed the costs — the loss of soldiers, international derision, revenge by Lenin — and rejected the idea.

The costs were avoided, and instead the world was subjected to the greatest man-made calamities ever. Communism itself was to claim perhaps 100 million lives, and it also gave rise to fascism and Nazism, leading to World War II. Ahmadinejad wants to be the new Lenin. Force is the only thing that can stop him.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-op-muravchik19nov19,1,787996.story?coll=la-news-comment

[Nbadan]

Bombing Iran will help transform the whole region into peaceful, co-existent democracies, right? I wonder how many family members this writer has fighting his ideological war?

[ChumpDumper]

Koppel says that we could prevent this by issuing a blanket warning that if a nuclear device is detonated anywhere in the United States, we will assume Iran is responsible. But would any U.S. president really order a retaliatory nuclear strike based on an assumption?Well, you want us to go to war with Iran based on an assumption after going to war with Iraq based on an assumption. What is the real difference?

[PixelPusher]

Like a spoiled ADD brat, they've grown bored and frustrated with their old toy (Iraq) and now pine away for a new toy (Iran).

[Nbadan]

Look at a map of the region, Iran is surrounded by countries with Nuclear weapons or, like Afghanistan and the former Soviet states, by countries in defense pacts with countries with nuclear weapons. Of course Iran wants a nuclear weapon, countries with nuclear weapons don't get attacked like Iraq, that is the message the Iranian leadership got.

[Extra Stout]

The neocon strategy has been utterly repudiated, even by GWB. They are irrelevant now.

[ChumpDumper]

There are still several in the administration, unfortunately. There should have been a Saturday night massacre.

[PixelPusher]

see also: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54176

[ChumpDumper]

It's funny they're both taking shots at Koppel. Ted sure as hell owned the first guy, maybe Josh should think twice before disagreeing, or go to Iran for a few weeks himself like Koppel has.

[ChumpDumper]

The nice thing that Josh totally misses is something that Barry McCaffrey pointed out plainly: a six month sustained bombing campaign would at the very best knock out maybe half of the facilities we actually know about. Is he prepared for that and the consquenses thereof? Stuff like a blockade of the Persian Gulf? Has he even thought about that? Neocons like Josh have an extremely poor understanding of what the military can do and what it can't do.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

But they have the one true god on their side, so it will always make them right.

[clambake]

True Bryant. Every week for the past 3 years, people from local churches would come knock on the door and want to discuss religion based on the "one true God". How we need to stand together and fight the ideas of fake Gods.

Now after Hagee and a host of other rightwing mishaps, They've chosen a new path. All the literiture is titled " The end of false religion is near".

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

The nice thing that Josh totally misses is something that Barry McCaffrey pointed out plainly: a six month sustained bombing campaign would at the very best knock out maybe half of the facilities we actually know about. Is he prepared for that and the consquenses thereof? Stuff like a blockade of the Persian Gulf? Has he even thought about that? Neocons like Josh have an extremely poor understanding of what the military can do and what it can't do.

Exactly. If Iran chooses to sink a couple of tankers in the Strait of Hormuz, world oil supply declines 40-50%, and that means a depression the size of which the world has never seen. That would effectively implode the economic system.


This would thrust us into a new global struggle akin to the one we waged so painfully with the Soviet Union for 40-odd years. It would be the "clash of civilizations" that has been so much talked about but so little defined.

This is what the neo-cons, who are really just spinners for the military-industrial complex, want. 50 more years of sky-high defense budgets. Have they not looked at the state of US government debt???


Koppel says that we could prevent this by issuing a blanket warning that if a nuclear device is detonated anywhere in the United States, we will assume Iran is responsible.

However, Koppel is an idiot if he thinks this makes any sense. Um, there are terrorists out there who would do this just to see the US destroy the world by retaliating, Ted. :rolleyes

Depressingly, I don't see a solution to the Iran quandry. They will develop nuclear weapons - that is inevitable - although I'm not worried about the government of Iran using them. They have power, a big vested interest, and the last thing they want to do is destroy that power by taking on an overmatched foe. We can only hope they'll have the good sense NOT to give them to terrorists, but that's unlikely, and therein lies the ned of civilisation as we know it. :depressed

[RandomGuy]

It's funny they're both taking shots at Koppel. Ted sure as hell owned the first guy, maybe Josh should think twice before disagreeing, or go to Iran for a few weeks himself like Koppel has.

Ad Hominem is easier than logical arugments and facts. Just ask Yoni. :lol

[Ya Vez]

Don't worry the Dems will re-instate the draft... all our problems will be taken care off..

[xrayzebra]

Exactly. If Iran chooses to sink a couple of tankers in the Strait of Hormuz, world oil supply declines 40-50%, and that means a depression the size of which the world has never seen. That would effectively implode the economic system.



This is what the neo-cons, who are really just spinners for the military-industrial complex, want. 50 more years of sky-high defense budgets. Have they not looked at the state of US government debt???



However, Koppel is an idiot if he thinks this makes any sense. Um, there are terrorists out there who would do this just to see the US destroy the world by retaliating, Ted. :rolleyes

Depressingly, I don't see a solution to the Iran quandry. They will develop nuclear weapons - that is inevitable - although I'm not worried about the government of Iran using them. They have power, a big vested interest, and the last thing they want to do is destroy that power by taking on an overmatched foe. We can only hope they'll have the good sense NOT to give them to terrorists, but that's unlikely, and therein lies the ned of civilisation as we know it. :depressed

RNR, you are right, they will have their atomic
weapon. And they will give it to a terrorist group.
Of this I have no doubt. We are dealing with
people who are on a crusade, only their cause is
important.

Most of you don't remember WWII, but rubber
was the big problem, we solved it. And now,
natural rubber is not even sought after for tires,
tyres for you RNR. Same for oil from the ME, yes
we depend on them for it at the present
consumption rate, but nothing says we have to
continue to use it at this rate if they cut off or
we are cut off from that source. We do have
resources available and believe me they would
be exploited. We also have countries bordering
north and south who would supply us by
increasing supply. Have no doubts about that,
they have to live with us and are dependent on
us for many things.

One factor no one considers. The ME depends
on the dollars they receive for their wealth. They
cant afford to lose that revenue. Their religion
is what is going to be their downfall, maybe not
in my lifetime and maybe not even in yours but
many keep ignoring history. Does anyone
remember what they learned about the dark
ages. I do. It was the Christian faith that
caused our problem. And before I am accused of
anything, I am a Christian and I do believe.

Oh, and RNR, the answer to your quandary is
very simple. We win in Iraq.

[ChumpDumper]

RNR, you are right, they will have their atomic
weapon. And they will give it to a terrorist group.
Of this I have no doubt.You said this about Saddam three years ago.
Oh, and RNR, the answer to your quandary is
very simple. We win in Iraq.What does that mean?

[xrayzebra]

Saddam was defeated.

You don't know what win means? Means we kick butt,
do what we started out to do. Like in basketball, football, baseball and war. We win.

[ChumpDumper]

Saddam was defeated.And thank God we got all his WMDs!
You don't know what win means? Means we kick butt,
do what we started out to do. Like in basketball, football, baseball and war. We win.Win what? What does that actually mean? What is your desired outcome in Iraq?

[clambake]

We will hand deliver the "win" to Iran.

[xrayzebra]

What if. What if. How about what if we give them
the chance to choose their own government. What if
they have a chance to live in peace. What if the
other folks in the region learn that that they don't have
to live under a religions dictatorship. What if they have
a choice. Like we used to have in the United States.

[clambake]

Didn't we do that? Didn't they vote? Bush has been making hay about that for some time now. They don't seem to be turning away from their differences with each other. It appears they are making choices.

What if Sistani and Al-Sadr would have been on that ballot?

[ChumpDumper]

How about what if we give them
the chance to choose their own government.We did. Then they kept on killing us and each other.
What if
they have a chance to live in peace.Would that be at the point of our guns or not?
What if the
other folks in the region learn that that they don't have
to live under a religions dictatorship.Or secular dictatorships like all our allies there? Be careful what you wish for.
What if they have
a choice.The choice we dictate to them?
Like we used to have in the United States.We used to actually declare war too. What happened to us?

[clambake]

Maybe your right Ray. What if we just blame everybody but ourselves.

[ChumpDumper]

The blame for the sloppy execution of this war rests squarely on the shoulders of Bill Clinton.

[clambake]

It's Syria and Iran. Rotten neighbors. What Iraq needs is a tough Home Owners Association.

[PixelPusher]

What Iraq needs is a tough Home Owners Association.
In other words, a corrupt tyrannical oligarchy which rules with an iron fist beneath a paper thin veneer of democracy.

[clambake]

exactly

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Win in Iraq? That is an oxymoron. Like Vietnam, there is no winning there, certainly not by a foreign power. All you have there is a drain of money and human life until the West has the good sense to get the hell out and the country splits in 3 - the Shiites annexed by Iran, a Suni homeland and a Kurd homeland (probably closely allied with Turkey). Taking Saddam out has destabilised the entire region.


Most of you don't remember WWII, but rubber
was the big problem, we solved it. And now,
natural rubber is not even sought after for tires,
tyres for you RNR. Same for oil from the ME, yes
we depend on them for it at the present
consumption rate, but nothing says we have to
continue to use it at this rate if they cut off (1) or
we are cut off from that source. We do have
resources available and believe me they would
be exploited. We also have countries bordering
north and south who would supply us by
increasing supply.(2) Have no doubts about that,
they have to live with us and are dependent on
us for many things.(3)

I would believe you Ray, but facts get in the way.

(1) At present we have no substitute for oil at the scale we are talking about. If half the world's supply disappeared because of the scenario I outlined, govts across the world would be forced to ration fuel just to keep the food supply chain going, forget petrochemical and fertilizer industries.

There is no "instant switch" to a substitute - that's why your govt keeps saying that you have to reduce your dependence on foreign oil. The US currently uses about 25 million barrels A DAY! There is no instant substitution of fuel on that scale.

(2) Over 60% of US oil comes from the Gulf. World oil supply is currently at it's maximum - there is no slackness in the supply market. Investment in oil refinery and extraction is underway again, but there will be no appreciable increase in supply for 5-10 years.

(3) What are they dependent on you for? Their food and manufactured products mostly come from Europe and Asia. From you they buy, what, guns? Nah, they get them from Russia.

We are walking a knife edge with Iran. They hold the key to the world economy and they know it - that's why they are so brazen about their nuclear program.

Ignore the dodgy formatting, this is a very interesting read (and it's referenced) about world oil supply and reserves (although I don't agree with the second half of his "comment" at the bottom):

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/energy/energy-b.htm

There are a hundred other sources out there saying much the same thing.

[velik_m]

All you have there is a drain of money and human life until the West has the good sense to get the hell out and the country splits in 3 - the Shiites annexed by Iran, a Suni homeland and a Kurd homeland (probably closely allied with Turkey).

:lmao

[boutons_]

"Kurd homeland (probably closely allied with Turkey)"

umm, probably not. More likely, the Turks would do genocide on the Kurds, theirs, Iran's, Iraq's, if the Turks thought nobody was watching.

[smeagol]

You don't know what win means? Means we kick butt,
do what we started out to do. Like in basketball, football, baseball and war. We win.


Ray:

It's been a long time since the US won any meaningfull title in International basketball.

I know, the NBA Champion is the World Champion :lol

(but we can discuss that one in another thread).

[NASCARdad]

Fuck Iran, Iraq, Syria and all you flaming liberal assholes.

[AFE7FATMAN]

http://logo.cafepress.com/1/356074.1359741.jpg

[whottt]

If Iran gets nukes more than likely a US city will get nuked via a terrorist act...

Choices

Nuke Iran

or

Wait for them....

Only liberals are challenged by which of those is the right choice.


Honestly watching you guys sit here and suck yourselves off about how you've got it all figured out is sickeningly pathetic.

It really is, and the board is just about unreadable with the liberal inbreeding. Scratch that...it is unreadable, even with boutons on ignore, now that Chump has reached boutons level hysterics.

The decline of differing viewpoints on this forum is not because you guys guys are making logical arguments, it's that you can't have a debate with a hysterical bitch.


It's a war you idiot, it is fascist ideology that has declared war on us you idiots, you cannot appease it, you cannot work out a peaceful solution with it, it is a mindset and hate on at the bio cultural level that you cannot even begin to fathom. And the only solution is to exterminate it(insert stupid and historically ignorant liberal more equivalizing here)


Why don't you dumbasses go try and negotiate peace with a mound of a fireants, them blame W for the fireants being fireants and then just shut the fuck up about politics. It's a more sensible use of your time.

Your heads are so far up your own asses on this it isn't even funny anymore.


What a bunch of stupid fucks.

Goodbye 08 election. Don't mistake the lack of challenges to your arguments as any kind of indication that you are in the slightest bit right...it's an indication that people are largely sick of your incessant, nonsensical and useless fucking whining.




In a war movie you guys are the one in the trench that freaks out...Useless.

[BIG IRISH]

In other words, a corrupt tyrannical oligarchy which rules with an iron fist beneath a paper thin veneer of democracy.

I though this was what Liberals were saying about Bush :lol

[whottt]

Win in Iraq? That is an oxymoron. Like Vietnam, there is no winning there, certainly not by a foreign power.

Sincerely, Islam, Socialism....and so on and so forth.



All you have there is a drain of money and human life until the West has the good sense to get the hell out and the country splits in 3 - the Shiites annexed by Iran, a Suni homeland and a Kurd homeland (probably closely allied with Turkey). Taking Saddam out has destabilised the entire region.

It's destabilised a shitty and opressive power structure that was breeding an apoocalyptic idelogy that threatens all of Western Civilization.

Destabilising a turd is a good thing, even if you do get some shit on your shoes.





(1) At present we have no substitute for oil at the scale we are talking about. If half the world's supply disappeared because of the scenario I outlined, govts across the world would be forced to ration fuel just to keep the food supply chain going, forget petrochemical and fertilizer industries.

There is no "instant switch" to a substitute - that's why your govt keeps saying that you have to reduce your dependence on foreign oil. The US currently uses about 25 million barrels A DAY! There is no instant substitution of fuel on that scale.

Great...we run out of Oil and that shuts up all the global warming zealots...whoever they may be.

Me? I'll go buy a bike and either convert my car to run on hydrogen or buy a hyrbrid.


(2) Over 60% of US oil comes from the Gulf. World oil supply is currently at it's maximum - there is no slackness in the supply market. Investment in oil refinery and extraction is underway again, but there will be no appreciable increase in supply for 5-10 years.


What % of US Oil comes from Iraq and Iran?


See...we aren't the ones selling our souls for their oil...every one else is...when we start protecting our oil interests we'll invade Canada.


(3) What are they dependent on you for? Their food and manufactured products mostly come from Europe and Asia. From you they buy, what, guns? Nah, they get them from Russia.

We are walking a knife edge with Iran. They hold the key to the world economy and they know it - that's why they are so brazen about their nuclear program.

Threat of cities getting nuked>>>>>World Economy






There are a hundred other sources out there saying much the same thing.


There were hundreds of sources in the 70's saying we were about to enter an ice age...

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

"Kurd homeland (probably closely allied with Turkey)"

umm, probably not. More likely, the Turks would do genocide on the Kurds, theirs, Iran's, Iraq's, if the Turks thought nobody was watching.

What I meant is there are lots of Kurds in southen Turkey, so some sort of bloc would form there. My bad, I expressed it incorrectly.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Fuck Iran, Iraq, Syria and all you flaming liberal assholes.

And how's that worked out for you so far?

[whottt]

It's worked out fine for us...and pretty shitty for the Islamofascists and Muslim Zealots....and Saddam.

You tell me...who would you rather be, us? Or them?

[whottt]

out and the country splits in 3 - the Shiites annexed by Iran, a Suni homeland and a Kurd homeland (probably closely allied with Turkey). Taking Saddam out has destabilised the entire region.


Sounds like a brilliant plan...so why didn't the old commonwealth think of this in the first place?

Chalk up the current division along with Europe's other great contributions to the 20th century, like nazism, socialism, anti-semitism, fascism, communism, WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea, the Cold War, the Soviet Union, the invention and pursuit of nuclear weapons, and the rise of America as the leader of the free world...

Oh and that other brilliant idea of cramming all their hated jews smack dab in the middle east on land primised also to the Palestinians...

Brilliant.

And you wonder why most of us don't want to listen to you guys or give a shit if you like us...


I know I know, we should make ourselve irrelevant and pretend it's not happening...well you got our libs believing that...but the reality is we don't have that option like most of you do. It's fight or die. We appreciate the support by the way.


I'll bbiab...I am going to go shove some flowers up my ass and negotiate peace with a rabid dog....when I get bit I'll be sure to blame America and W for rabies. [/liberal]

[BIG IRISH]

It's worked out fine for us...and pretty shitty for the Islamofascists and Muslim Zealots....and Saddam.

You tell me...who would you rather be, us? Or them?

It doesn't have to be that way.

We misunderstand Islam by thinking of it merely as a religion. Like Judaism, Islam is as much a community as it is a faith. Those who once argued that Judaism was a trans-border religion, and therefore could not constitute a nation, were proven wrong by the foundation of Israel.

Even though terrorists are not on the verge of founding a pan-Muslim state, forget about lebanon, it is this religious nationalist frame of reference that constitutes their fundamental motivation.

Al-Qaeda grew out of a network of Arab fighters who risked their lives fighting in far-away Afghanistan alongside fellow Muslims. They saw the Soviet invasion of that country in the 1980s as an aggression against a trans-border Muslim nation.

Nationalist anger, no matter how unjustified its results, always has root causes. The

international issues feeding Muslim and Arab feelings of injustice are many, but the primary issue is the Israeli occupation of the holy sites of East Jerusalem.

Both the world's Muslims and the international community reject this occupation, and the selective enforcement of U.N. resolutions that has followed on its heels has served as the kindling to Muslim anger.

The White House continues to wage its counter-insurgency campaign against an enemy it fundamentally misinterprets. Its appeals to the world's Muslims, neglectful of all major relevant international issues, inevitably fall on closed minds and closed hearts.

Forcing Muslim nations to abide by the will of the United Nations while simultaneously refusing to enforce resolutions aimed at protecting their own internationally-recognized rights makes a hollow mockery of the whole international order.

Muslims are effectively second-class citizens in today's world. How can we expect Islamic nationalists to lay down their arms when we fail to recognize their rights as equal members of the international community?

The gap between the Muslim world and the rest of the international community is the key to the war on terror and in the battle of hearts and minds, actions carry far more weight than words. Al-Qaeda understands this, it's time that we did as well and just maybe it is time to start talking with them.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Well said, Irish. No there's a man whoknows what he's talking about. :clap


Great...we run out of Oil and that shuts up all the global warming zealots...whoever they may be.

Me? I'll go buy a bike and either convert my car to run on hydrogen or buy a hyrbrid.

Um, no. It's not about whether you buy a bike or not, and we're not even close to mass-produced hydrogen vehicles (read about the difficulties of building a hydrogen "gas tank"), it's about whether the transport industries that supply everything around you (your food, clothing, household items, electricity, etc.) can run when the world oil supply is cut in half.


What % of US Oil comes from Iraq and Iran?

About 20% of US, 75% of Japanese and 30% of EU oil comes from Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, The AEI, Qatar, or more than enough to cripple world oil supply and put a shock through the economic system that would lead to civil strife in the developed world and economic disaster for the world's markets. Imagine if there were transport induced food shotages and your supermarkets ran dry - Hurrican Katrina would pale into insignificance.

And guess what, almost all Gulf oil is shipped out through the Straits of Hormuz. "Oil flows through the Strait of Hormuz account for roughly two-fifths of all world traded oil", through a channel 2 miles wide that can be blocked by sinking a few supertankers, which is the first thing Iran will do if you start bombing them. That's my point, guy. Get your facts straight. Here's a factsheet from your own government:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/pgulf.html

As for global warming, oil is bad but even if it disappears we still face the greater problem of coal-fired electricity, concrete, deforestation, etc.


See...we aren't the ones selling our souls for their oil...every one else is...when we start protecting our oil interests we'll invade Canada.

Even if you do, they only have oil shale, which recovers 1/15th of the energy per unit expended on extraction as oil. And there's only one refinery in the world, already operating at full capacity.


There were hundreds of sources in the 70's saying we were about to enter an ice age...

No, there was one cover on Time magazine and an unsupported theory. Now we have every major scientific organisation in the world agreeing that this is real and we are causing it, plus the ex-World Bank Cheif economist, the world's risk assessors (the insurance industry), etc etc

Don't talkabout global warming here, you don't have a fvcking clue what's going on and you haven't been man enough to stand up and argue with me in the multiple climate change threads over the last month, because the evidence hands you your head and you know it.

Anyway, as I said,Iran is an insoluble quandry - they get nukes, they probably give themto terrorists, you bomb them they strangle the world's economy, which might have even worse consequences in terms of civil disorder.

Either carpet neutron bomb the entire Middle East, Indonesia and Muslim Africa, and intern and slaughter every other Muslim on the face of the planet, and get it over with, or start treating each other like civilised human beings and try to build some bridges of prosperity. No half measures either way, and no hope for humanity if we choose the first course.

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao

Now hootie wants to nuke Iran.

He's only happy when he thinks about killing millions of people.

I'd be all for it if I thought it would work. As it is it's a stupid idea from a stupid death lover. I can't believe you haven't become a mercenary yet -- you are so eager to kill muslims we can tell you're frothing at the mouth when you post. At the same time you really haven't tried hard enough to join in the war you so desperately want all the rest of us to fight. Because of that, you are just another chicken hawk getting his real estate license, content to not put his money where his mouth is.

[whottt]

Oh stop trying to save yourself Chump...the muslims don't care, they'll nuke your city too.


Maybe you can go suck their dicks before they do it...but I'd rather you just shut the fuck up, and go fight and die for a cause you belive in...

Go live in the middle east if life is so great over there. Shut the fuck up and go over there.

Don't sit here and kick the dog you know won't bite you and act like your fear is some kind of deep sensitivity...it's stupidity of the highest order, both of the natural order, and of the sort of threat we face.

[ChumpDumper]

But you're not even trying to save me.

Or yourself.

You simply don't believe in the cause that much since you're content to just bitch about it on a message board and not even bother to vote this year.

[whottt]

snippety snip snip snip.


Stop acting like being a fence rider is an enlightened perspective.


The sane muslims will either make themselves relevant, get the fuck out, or die...and I don't give a fuck wha the fascists one think.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't give a fuckTrue.

[whottt]

You simply don't believe in the cause that much since you're content to just bitch about it on a message board and not even bother to vote this year.


Oh you spend a lot more time bitching about it on a message board than I do...where's your great act of bravery? Oh you blame America...wow, what guts.

Shut the fuck up and go over there and die for what you belive in.

[ChumpDumper]

After you, killer.

[whottt]

:lmao

Now hootie wants to nuke Iran.

He's only happy when he thinks about killing millions of people.



My survival >>>>>>>>> millions of people who either want to kill me or refuse to control their own idiots.

You got it...


Oh your survival isn't that important to you?


The go out in the street...and light yourself on fire in protest of all the innicent terrorists.

Prove you mean it...







I'd be all for it if I thought it would work. As it is it's a stupid idea from a stupid death lover. I can't believe you haven't become a mercenary yet -- you are so eager to kill muslims we can tell you're frothing at the mouth when you post.

Oh you're just as eager to kill them as I am Saddam...you just don't it interrupting your dinner.

Hyproctite...






At the same time you really haven't tried hard enough to join in the war you so desperately want all the rest of us to fight.

Hey it's a lot easier to join Al-Qaeda than the US Military...you first.



Because of that, you are just another chicken hawk getting his real estate license, content to not put his money where his mouth is.

And you're just an idiot content to sit here beating the victim hoping someone'll notice, They won't. You'll get nuked too and all your stupid whining won't make a difference.

[whottt]

After you, killer.


No after you, Saddam.

[ChumpDumper]

My survival >>>>>>>>> millions of people who either want to kill me or refuse to control their own idiots.

You got it...


Oh your survival isn't that important to you?


The go out in the street...and light yourself on fire in protest of all the innicent terrorists.

Prove you mean it...:lmao We're entering full meltdown here.
Oh you're just as eager to kill them as I am Saddam...you just don't it interrupting your dinner.

Hyproctite...:lmao again.
And you're just an idiot content to sit here beating the victim hoping someone'll noticeWho? You?
You'll get nuked too and all your stupid whining won't make a difference.That's a distinct possibility since you and Bush had such a hard on to kill any old muslims you ignored the ones who were closest to having the means to actually nuke us.

Congratulations whottt. You've killed us all, you stupid pice of shit.

[whottt]

It doesn't have to be that way.

Yes it does...

Just like dogs are going to chase cats...


It takes two enlightened cultures to make peace...one can't do it. And there's only one that wants peace.

And if you can't see that, then you're just blind.


We misunderstand Islam by thinking of it merely as a religion. Like Judaism, Islam is as much a community as it is a faith. Those who once argued that Judaism was a trans-border religion, and therefore could not constitute a nation, were proven wrong by the foundation of Israel.

Even though terrorists are not on the verge of founding a pan-Muslim state, forget about lebanon, it is this religious nationalist frame of reference that constitutes their fundamental motivation.

Fuck Islam. Fuck Theorcracy.








snippety snip snip snip.


The Muslim countries have shitty leaders, you either leave them in power and let their problem become ours, or you get rid of them.

Those are the only two solutions.

The shitty leaders are not going to become good leaders...


And yes I wish we could not care about it like we did for the entire 20th century, however the increasing likelyhood of nuclear terrorismm, makes that impossible.


How come the muslim leaders aren't worried about their cities getting nuked?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

No after you, Saddam.

The quintessential neo-con ad hominem tactic - if you're not for the war you're for the enemy. :rolleyes

Well, go ahead and bomb Canada aqnd New Zealand and half of Europe, not to mention most of my country and half of yours, because none of them believe in your war.

[ChumpDumper]

The quintessential neo-con ad hominem tactic - if you're not for the war you're for the enemy. :rolleyes

Well, go ahead and bomb Canada aqnd New Zealand and half of Europe, not to mention most of my country and half of yours, because none of them believe in your war.Yeah, you're next. Whottt pretty much wants to kill anyone who disagrees with him. Or at least he wants someone else to kill them.

[whottt]

The quintessential neo-con ad hominem tactic - if you're not for the war you're for the enemy. :rolleyes


As opposed to the quintessential lib/euro tactic...blame America.

Because none of these problems existed before America...

You're spoiled, detatched from reality, and your world view would be exterminated, ruled and subjugated in a matter of seconds without mine.


Well, go ahead and bomb Canada aqnd New Zealand and half of Europe, not to mention most of my country and half of yours, because none of them believe in your war.

I know...you guys believe in colonialism, nazism, fascism, communism, anti-semitism...cramming jews onto land promised to Arabs, cramming oppositional religious sects within the same borders, and appointing despots to rule over them so you can buy cheap oil, and then acting like America caused it...

You guys also stand for sticking it to the Germans as far up the ass as you can get it after WWI, thus causing WWII, dragging us into it...and then having the audacity to call us war mongers.


I know exactly what you stand for...I prefer my war.


I know what your next reply could be...you could give me a lecture on evil America massacring indigenous people...

[whottt]

Insert Chump Euro sucking reply so he prove how enlightened he is...

[ChumpDumper]

Insert Chump Euro sucking reply so he prove how enlightened he is...Nah, your war is speaking for itself.

You fucked up hootie, and we're all paying for it.

Thanks again, dipshit.

[whottt]

Nah, your war is speaking for itself.

I'm sorry all your people are dying chump....I guess that's the price of victory...but no one is keeping you from dying for them.


You fucked up hootie, and we're all paying for it.


Thanks again, dipshit.


My pleasure...shouldn't you be kneeling towards Mecca about now? It might keep the muslims from killing you...oh and it'll make the Euros like you(as long as you aren't jewish)

[whottt]

By the way Ozz...no one forcing you guys to stay in our mutal protection pact(except those Aussies and Brits who keep re-electing a pro American leaders)...

Don't worry you guys can back out on the deal now...Japan aint going to hurt you anymore.

[ChumpDumper]

Nice baiting, but it doesn't change the fact that your impotent rage and bloodlust blotted out whatever speck of good sense you may have had in that pea brain of yours.

But you don't really care all that much anyway. Just more words on the internets.

[whottt]

Nice baiting, but it doesn't change the fact that your impotent rage and bloodlust blotted out whatever speck of good sense you may have had in that pea brain of yours.


I'm being honest...I like my country better than theirs, I value my life more than theirs, I value my way of life more than theirs...

And a million dead muslims bothers me a hell of a lot less than one dead whottt.

They just don't mean that much to me. And why should they? I don't mean that much to them.

Sorry...but that's life, if they have something to contribute other than suicidal fantics I may reconsider...but as of right now, that's just the way it is.

Do I sympathize? To an extent..but not the the point I am going to kiss the ass of a fascist threat, blind myself into thinking there is a peaceful solution with a mad dog.

It sucks to be a sane person born in that region of the world...however that doesn't make me want to bring that world over here...I am sorry, it just doesn't.


But you don't really care all that much anyway. Just more words on the internets.


As opposed to you....


I find your guilt therapy annoying and since you bitch more than me...you should be over there before me.

[ChumpDumper]

more words

[whottt]

another 6000 posts here and 3000 at SR and you'll be almost as full of shit as I am

[ChumpDumper]

Hey, I actually think that thanks to dumbasses like you we are getting close to being locked into using nukes to try to solve our problems as well as getting nuked ourselves. You've made the wolrd more dangerous without caring enough to actually do anything but be pissed off and wanting other people to kill muslims for you. Good job.

[whottt]

Hey, I actually think that thanks to dumbasses like you we are getting close to being locked into using nukes to try to solve our problems as well as getting nuked ourselves.

Classic...a suck ass Democrat accusing me of using nukes to solve our problems.

The hypochrisy knows no bounds.






You've made the wolrd more dangerous without caring enough to actually do anything but be pissed off and wanting other people to kill muslims for you. Good job.


And all you do is sit on here posting messages on a message board attacking Republicans and your own country...pathetic.

And fuck you...the Democrats are the only ones that have used a nuke on another country...

What's next, you call me a racist too? Democrat?


Must be a real bitch to feel all that guilt...Democrat.

But I guess you show your true colors when push comes to shove inspite of your own guilt, don't you, Democrat?

[velik_m]

Because Whottt likes to throw this word around:
Fascism is a radical political ideology that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, nationalism, militarism, anti-liberalism and anti-communism.

-----

In a 1995 essay "Eternal Fascism", the Italian writer and academic Umberto Eco attempts to list general properties of fascist ideology. He claims that it is not possible to organise these into a coherent system, but that "it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it". He uses the term "Ur-fascism" as a generic description of different historical forms of fascism.

The features of fascism he lists are as follows:

* "The Cult of Tradition", combining cultural syncretism with a rejection of modernism (often disguised as a rejection of capitalism).
* "The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dicatates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
* "Disagreement is Treason" - fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action.
* "Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
* "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
* "Obsession With a Plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often involves an appeal to xenophobia or the identification of an internal security threat. He cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
* "Pacifism is Trafficking With the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" - there must always be an enemy to fight.
* "Contempt for the Weak" - although a fascist society is elitist, everybody in the society is educated to become a hero.
* "Selective Populism" - the People have a common will, which is not delegated but interpreted by a leader. This may involve doubt being cast upon a democratic institution, because "it no longer represents the Voice of the People".
* "Newspeak" - fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.

[whottt]

More European guilt...save it.


Attempts to rationalize, and provide a logical basis behind, a nihilistic, and apocalyptic world view neither impress me nor change my mind, nor change the past or the reality of this situation.

[whottt]

LMAO...an Italian wrote that...or was it a Spaniard?

Well shit, if anyone knows about stability it would be the Italians and the Spanish...

[ChumpDumper]

Classic...a suck ass Democrat accusing me of using nukes to solve our problems.

The hypochrisy knows no bounds.:lmao I'm not accusing you of it -- you said it, bitch.
And all you do is sit on here posting messages on a message board attacking Republicans and your own country...pathetic. Actually I spoke up when I thought the Republicans and Democrats were making a huge mistake invading Iraq when the mission against the real terrorists was not accomplished. Sorry I was right about that, I know that pisses you off.
Democrat...Democrat...Democrat:lol I've voted for members of both parties in every election. I'd call you a neocon but you would support whatever policy provides the most potential for death -- not by your hand of course, you can't be bothered -- just something you can read on the internets.

[velik_m]

I bet Italians know more about fascism then you do, whottt. Have you already check the list to see, if you and your party fit?

[whottt]

:lmao I'm not accusing you of it -- you said it, bitch.Actually I spoke up when I thought the Republicans and Democrats were making a huge mistake invading Iraq when the mission against the real terrorists was not accomplished.

On a message board...a lot of good that did...


Poor Ozz's preaching of the evils of global warming on the SpursTalk political forum probably isn't going to elicit much of a decisive impact either...clowns.


Sorry I was right about that, I know that pisses you off.:lol

Nothing has happened that I didn't expect...it's a fucking war.

The only thing I am pissed off about is all the bitching weakening the hardline stance of our current government...unlke you, I don't expect perfection, but I do expect success.



I've voted for members of both parties in every election.
Me too.


I'd call you a neocon but you would support whatever policy provides the most potential for death -- not by your hand of course, you can't be bothered -- just something you can read on the internets.


I support winning this battle...by whevermeans neccessary with force equal to the threat.

This isn't a battle of equal sides, this is a battle where one side clearly has the upperhand but instead has tied that hand behind it's back borne out of some stupid form of idealism that is a result of a spoiled and privliged upbringing and way of life, that is both ignorant of the nature of survial as well as the realities of the harsh world in which we live.


Go blow smoke up your ass chump...go over there and talk peace with Usama, just make sure you got your kneepads on...idiot. He doesn't care about your guilt.

[ChumpDumper]

On a message board...a lot of good that did...Yeah, there really wasn't anyone I could hope everyone else would kill like you hope.
Nothing has happened that I didn't expect...it's a fucking war.You expected the US to go into war half-assed and disband the only force capable of maintaining order, taking away their livelihood without taking their guns? You expected digital pictures of naked dogpiles of muslim prisoners on the internets? You expected the entire rationale for the invasion of Iraq to turn out to be wishful thinking?
I support winning this battle...by whevermeans neccessary with force equal to the threat. Right. You think they might use nukes someday so you think we must use nukes now. Why did you try to deny wanting that?
This isn't a battle of equal sides, this is a battle where one side clearly has the upperhand but instead has tied that hand behind it's back borne out of some stupid form of idealism that is a result of a spoiled and privliged upbringing and way of life, that is both ignorant of the nature of survial as well as the realities of the harsh world in which we live.What is your contribution to your war? Let me know how harsh it has been for you the last three years.
Go blow smoke up your ass chump...go over there and talk peace with Usama, just make sure you got your kneepads on...idiot. He doesn't care about your guilt.Don't blame me, I wanted to keep chasing Osama when your dumb ass gave up and wanted to go to Iraq because it was easier. Your arrogance is only matched by your inability to actually finish the important job. Oh, yeah -- maybe a radioactive cloud might float over Osama after we nuke Iran.

[whottt]

I bet Italians know more about fascism then you do, whottt. Have you already check the list to see, if you and your party fit?


Why because they became one?

That's like saying I am expert on fuel conservation because I am American.


They also have been in more wars than wars I have...that doesn't mean I want their advice on it.

What's next, get advice from the Charlotee Bobcats on losing?

If you Euros were half as good at winning wars and successfully restructuring the regions ya'll fucked up and colonized as you are at intelectually sitting on your butts and solving all the worlds problems with a few words, I'd listen...

But the only things I see ya'll as being experts at is inaction until it's too late and then dragging others into your shit...

Tell me I am wrong.

All the Euros that recognize a shitty situation, are willing to act and fix it, move to America and I call them grandpa...the ones that act otherwise impose the shitty situation, and the rest of them sit there and think.

[whottt]

Yeah, there really wasn't anyone I could hope everyone else would kill like you hope.You expected the US to go into war half-assed and disband the only force capable of maintaining order, taking away their livelihood without taking their guns? You expected digital pictures of naked dogpiles of muslim prisoners on the internets? You expected the entire rationale for the invasion of Iraq to turn out to be wishful thinking?Right. You think they might use nukes someday so you think we must use nukes now. Why did you try to deny wanting that?What is your contribution to your war? Let me know how harsh it has been for you the last three years.Don't blame me, I wanted to keep chasing Osama when your dumb ass gave up and wanted to go to Iraq because it was easier. Your arrogance is only matched by your inability to actually finish the important job. Oh, yeah -- maybe a radioactive cloud might float over Osama after we nuke Iran.


Classic chump backpedaling...when getting your ass kicked, make up a bunch of bullshit and try to pass it off as your opponents position...

[ChumpDumper]

What are you talking about? Your ass is getting kicked by your war that you aren't fighting. Way to go, dumbass.

[whottt]

How is my ass getting kicked? Aren't you the one posting links about all the horrors of all the dead Iraqis?


I bet you think Hezbolla taught Israel a lesson too don't you...idiot.


You have a fucked up definition of winning.

[ChumpDumper]

How is my ass getting kicked?Oh yeah, the occupation is going swimmingly, just like you said it would.
Aren't you the one posting links about all the horrors of all the dead Iraqis?I'm the one asking if it's a civil war yet, dipshit. You conveniently refused to answer and called me a child molester after I pointed out your callousness to US casualties.
I bet you think Hezbolla taught Israel a lesson too don't you...idiot.Nah, they just got stronger politically.
You have a fucked up definition of winning.Go out there and win the war for us hootie. Or stay here and bitch at me some more.

[velik_m]

@whottt

so why didn't your grandpa fix the shitty situation in Europe instead of fleeing away? Your ancestors are people who didn't have the guts to change things, so they chose to run away instead. fucking cowards, no wonder you're so full of complexes, trying to prove all the time how strong and powerfull and mighty you are.
Who would be an expert on fascism then? Perhaps a slovenian whose grandparents lived under it?
Just go and buy a gun and kill everybody before they kill you - it's the safest route.

[ChumpDumper]

His daddy gave him a gun. I suppose he has someone else fire it for him.

[whottt]

Oh yeah, the occupation is going swimmingly, just like you said it would.
It's going shitty for the muslims...



I'm the one asking if it's a civil war yet, dipshit. You conveniently refused to answer and called me a child molester after I pointed out your callousness to US casualties.

I'm not callous to US casualties....you are when you side with those that kill them. I just know what they signed up for when they willingly joined.



Nah, they just got stronger politically.

Ok...you take being stronger politically...and I'll take not having to drink my own piss. Let's see who's standing last.


I hear the dinosaurs had a strong political movement...unfortunately the meteor didn't give a flying fuck...and it didn't care who liked it either.




Go out there and win the war for us hootie. Or stay here and bitch at me some more.

Which is it? are we losing or massacring millions? Idiot.

[whottt]

@whottt

so why didn't your grandpa fix the shitty situation in Europe instead of fleeing away?

He did...it was called the marshall plan and the coldwar...no thanks necesaary, asshole.


Your ancestors are people who didn't have the guts to change things, so they chose to run away instead.

My ancestors cleaned up your messes...which is what we are doing in the middle east now too.

And thank gawd they did...


fucking cowards, no wonder you're so full of complexes, trying to prove all the time how strong and powerfull and mighty you are.

I don't think that needs to be proved....

And when you catch me on a slovenian message board bashing your country, then you can lecture me on complexes...


Oh and how's Rasho doing? Mean ole Americans holding him down.



Who would be an expert on fascism then? Perhaps a slovenian whose grandparents lived under it?

Experts on fascism? Or experts on defeating it?

I'd settle for those who saw it for what it was and either got themselves in a situation to not live under it, or those that fought it, not that those that lived under it.


I don't know want to know how to live under fascism...I don't want to know how to live under Islam...I don't want advice on how to lose.


I know you and Chump are experts on how to do this...but I don't give a fuck. Go live under it.




Just go and buy a gun and kill everybody before they kill you - it's the safest route.

Don't worry, I'll go European when the time is right....

[ChumpDumper]

It's going shitty for the muslims...Yeah, all of them. And us. Go figure.
I'm not callous to US casualties....you are when you side with those that kill them.Except I don't and you're a scumbag for saying I do, scumbag.
Ok...you take being stronger politically...and I'll take not having to drink my own piss. Let's see who's standing last.You're really not making much sense anymore, scumbag.
Which is it? are we losing or massacring millions? Idiot.We are losing. "Only" thousands have died -- I know you want more death, scumbag. You'll get it.

[whottt]

Yeah, all of them.

If it's not going shitty for them why are you posting nonstop on a message board about all the sectarian violence...I condider it a bunch of violent motherfuckers weeding each other from the genepool.


.Except I don't and you're a scumbag for saying I do,

You are most definitely the scumbag here...


.You're really not making much sense anymore, scumbag.

You being detatched from reality doesn't mean I'm not making sense...you'd rather live in victorious Lebanon than Israel...you are definitely an idiot. Go check the immigration rates and see if reality agrees with how far you have your head stuck up your ass.



We are losing.

Then you should be packing up, moving to Iraq, and setting up house in a mosque...go on, back it up, scumbag.


"Only" thousands have died -- I know you want more death,

Death is coming, it was coming before W got in office, it was coming before we went into Iraq, and it'll still be coming for the rest of your and my life...idiot. And if you think attacking the current administration and this war is going to prevent...you are far stupider than I could ever have imagined.



scumbag. You'll get it.

I do get it....meanwhile why don't you go join Devin in time out school.

[ChumpDumper]

If it's not going shitty for them why are you posting nonstop on a message board about all the sectarian violence...I condider it a bunch of violent motherfuckers weeding each other from the genepool.I just said it's going shitty for them dumbass. You can't even fucking read, dumbass.
You are post definitely the scumbag here.And you can't type either, scumbag.
You being detatched from reality doesn't mean I'm not making sense...you'd rather live in victorious Lebanon than Israel...you are definitely an idiot. Go check the immigration rates and see if reality agrees with how far you have your head stuck up your ass.I wouldn't rather live in Lebanon, scumbag. You are losing it.
Then you should be packing up, moving to Iraq, and setting up house in a mosque...go on, back it up, scumbag.You are such a fucking dipshit you can't even follow a simple train of thought anymore. We are losing what little control we had in iraq and it is fucking everything else up. The US isn't done, but thanks to people like you, we fucked up pretty badly in the middle east and have had our options severely limited. Thanks again, scumbag.
Death is coming, it was coming before W got in office, it was coming before we into Iraq, and it'll still be coming for the rest of your and my life...idiot.It's nice that you and youre fellow scumbags distracted us from those guys who were actively trying to kill us and merely added to their numbers. Way to go, scumbag.
I do get it.What, your real estate license? Way to support the war effort, scumbag. What sacrifice.

[whottt]

Tell you what Chump...

Whether you realize it or not, the number of enemies any one man has is finite...killing your enemy does rid you of them. This is not killing just because someone disagrees with you, this is killing because you will be killed unless you conform..

I know my way will work...beyond all doubt. Even if nukes must be used...the Democrats shows us that in WWII.


Now what you have to do is show how kissing the ass of a violent enemy is going to make them into a flowerchild...


Prove it.

Either go make friends with a Grizzly...

Or...if you think the Grizzly isn't human enough...

Get yourself thrown into federal prison among the general population for a couple of years and let me know how the peace talks went.

[whottt]

I just said it's going shitty for them dumbass. You can't even fucking read, dumbass.And you can't type either, scumbag.

LMAO spelling smack?

It's a cordless keyboard....


I wouldn't rather live in Lebanon, scumbag. You are losing it.You are such a fucking dipshit you can't even follow a simple train of thought anymore. We are losing what little control we had in iraq and it is fucking everything else up.

It's a fucking war you idiot...

Do you expect them to lay down?

They aren't like you, they're like me. Which is why you are the last fucking person that needs to be giving advice on how to beat them.


The US isn't done, but thanks to people like you, we fucked up pretty badly in the middle east and have had our options severely limited. Thanks again, scumbag.It's nice that you and youre fellow scumbags distracted us from those guys who were actively trying to kill us and merely added to their numbers. Way to go, scumbag.


Chump...could I turn you into a suicide bomber?


Could W?

Then how can he do it to them?

It's already there, it's in the culture, and it is put there by a combination of things, the most easily dealt with is the shitty and opressive leadership.



What, your real estate license? Way to support the war effort, scumbag. What sacrifice.


True...I am not willing to suck terrorist dick like you are in support of my cause...what can I say? I guess you love terrorists and hate America more than I do the opposite...

I hear Usama needs a new figure head to make videos for his victorious war since he's off in a cave somewhere celebrating...maybe you should volunteer?

[ChumpDumper]

When did I advocate kissing the ass of a violent enemy?

Never.

I wanted to kill the guys who were actively trying to kill us. You wanted to go to Iraq because maybe someday they might try to kill us a decade or two in the future.

Now they are actively trying to kill us, the ones who were originally trying to kill us are still actively trying to kill us and the ones who actually might actively try to nuke us soon were allowed to make their nuke program nearly indestructible.

You fucked up.
I know my way will work...beyond all doubt.Your way, your war.

It's your talk on the internets and nothing else, scumbag.

Don't you ever forget that.

[ChumpDumper]

[More talk about his war. His way]

[whottt]

When did I advocate kissing the ass of a violent enemy?

Never.

Well, what you consider beneolvent leaders I consider enemies....there's the problem, Saddam.


I wanted to kill the guys who were actively trying to kill us. You wanted to go to Iraq because maybe someday they might try to kill us a decade or two in the future.

Idiot....


Did we attack Japan or Germany first in WWII?


You fucking idiot...

The leaders of the mideast needs to be gone...

We cannot take them all out militarily but to start the process we have to take some of them out...who better and easier, than Saddam?

It is much more difficult to take the leadership of Saudi, Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, Syria and Jordan out...especially since they didn't violate a cease fire.

And there is absolutely no timetable on how long it would have taken Saddam to develop nuke materials and have them trickle down to terrorist groups...

It's called erring on the side of cautrion.



Now they are actively trying to kill us, the ones who were originally trying to kill us are still actively trying to kill us and the ones who actually might actively try to nuke us soon were allowed to make their nuke program nearly indestructible.[/auote]


And if we hadn't gone into Iraq? Is it better for us to have no miltary logistical support of any kind, you idiot?

[quote]You fucked up.Your way, your war.

My war, your stupidty.


It's your talk on the internets and nothing else, scumbag.

Don't you ever forget that.

I won't if you won't....inbetween your sucking of terrorist cock flag burning.

IF you don't see the paralells between your comments, those of Nbadanm, boutons, and what the uneducated dumbass mullah's carrying a gun in one hand and a quaran in the other say... well, it's just one more thing among many that you don't see.


BUt you are fucking stupid if you think taking Usama out solves the problem...it didn't begin with him, it won't end with him...


You know when it'll end?

When the middle east is no longer a shithole...and yes contrary to you and the stupid hyprocrite libs thinking...it's still a shithole if it's a got an oppressive dictatorial government...

If it has to get worse before it's going to get better, so be it...and no, not all wars are evil.

And if nukes are what it takes to win, then nukes are what it takes to win...

[ChumpDumper]

Well, what you consider beneolvent leaders I consider enemies....there's the problem, Saddam.Fuck you, you lying piece of shit.
You fucking idiot...

The leaders of the mideast needs to be gone...

We cannot take them all out militarily but to start the process we have to take some of them out...who better and easier, than Saddam?Who better?

The fucking terrorists, that's who you stupid, lying scumbag!

You are a fucking fool.

[whottt]

Terrorists don't fight out in the open idiot...if they did the war be over.

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao No shit dumbass. It's obvious you just wanted to kill muslims, all muslims, after 9-11. You just took the easy route and decided to ignore the most dangerous ones.

Way to go, you lazy fool.

[whottt]

Fuck you, you lying piece of shit.

Yeah...I'm lying, there's only 15million posts in this forum of you railing on the decision to take good ole Saddam out.



Who better?
.

The leaders of the oppressive countries that create the misery and anger, provide the funding, and then direct that anger towards us, that leaders like Usama tap into to recruit their terrorist core...without misery to reach, Usama's words would be meaningless.

You think on the small scale....

Usama didn't create this cause, he's just one of the manipulators.

[whottt]

:lmao No shit dumbass. It's obvious you just wanted to kill muslims, all muslims, after 9-11. You just took the easy route and decided to ignore the most dangerous ones.

And it's obvious that you just want to molest.




Way to go, you lazy fool.

Back atcha...ped.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah...I'm lying, there's only 15million posts in this forum of you railing on the decision to take good ole Saddam out. Yes, you are a liar. I thought it was a bad idea and would make things much worse. I was right.
The leaders of the oppressive countries that create the misery and anger, provide the funding, and then direct that anger towards us, that leaders like Usama tap into to recruit their terrorist core...without misery to reach, Usama's words would be meaningless.

You think on the small scale....

Usama didn't create this cause, he's just one of the manipulators.He's the guy who killed Americans on American soil.

You don't think at all.

[velik_m]

He did...it was called the marshall plan and the coldwar...no thanks necesaary, asshole.

What of them? We told Stalin to go to hell in 1947, it took you another 40 years to beat those pussy russians.
This is list of stuff your country did "for" us in previous century:
It stoped us from getting Klagenfurt after ww1.
It stoped us from getting Treiste after ww2.
It tried to stop us from getting independence.
gee, thanks.



My ancestors cleaned up your messes...which is what we are doing in the middle east now too.

And thank gawd they did...



I don't think that needs to be proved....


More germans troops were lost at the battle of Kursk than in entire western front campaign. some contribution.

Slovenains never attacked anybody, so how was this our mess? The only contact with ME we had, was kicking turkish butt in middle ages.



And when you catch me on a slovenian message board bashing your country, then you can lecture me on complexes...


Oh and how's Rasho doing? Mean ole Americans holding him down.


Was that some attempt to insult me by using Rasho? :lol



Experts on fascism? Or experts on defeating it?

I'd settle for those who saw it for what it was and either got themselves in a situation to not live under it, or those that fought it, not that those that lived under it.

I don't know want to know how to live under fascism...I don't want to know how to live under Islam...I don't want advice on how to lose.

I know you and Chump are experts on how to do this...but I don't give a fuck. Go live under it.


Oh they fought too, infact we fought fascism way back in 1927 when you we're busy dealing arms to them. And last time i checked, we won.


Don't worry, I'll go European when the time is right....

I'll be waiting.

[whottt]

Yes, you are a liar. I thought it was a bad idea and would make things much worse. I was right.

It's a war....I don't know why you thought it would be simple.


He's the guy who killed Americans on American soil.

You don't think at all.

And there will just be someone else to replace him as long as the misery pipeline is still flowing...

And no, leaving the shitty leaders in power would not have been better...

It was the cause in the first place.

[ChumpDumper]

It's a war....I don't know why you thought it would be simple.I know it would be simpler if we didn't complicate it needlessly with a failed nation building experiment.
And there will just be someone else to replace him as long as the misery pipeline is still flowing...

And no, leaving the shitty leaders in power would not have been better...

It was the cause in the first place.But, they're all shitty leaders. The leaders in Iraq now are shitty and beholden to the militias bent on genocide. How did we make that better? Less miserable?

[whottt]

What of them? We told Stalin to go to hell in 1947, it took you another 40 years to beat those pussy russians.

When I said I don't want you to teach me how to live under a fascism or Islam...you can also feel free to assume that means communism as well...

You know, the weeds...



This is list of stuff your country did "for" us in previous century:
It stoped us from getting Klagenfurt after ww1.
It stoped us from getting Treiste after ww2.
It tried to stop us from getting independence.
gee, thanks.

Ya'll were fucking commies...we had to wait till ya'll figured it out...

Note, we got this even though we have never been communists.




More germans troops were lost at the battle of Kursk than in entire western front campaign. some contribution.

Your war not ours...


Slovenains never attacked anybody, so how was this our mess? The only contact with ME we had, was kicking turkish butt in middle ages.

We didn't attack any body either....until. It's still your region of the world...we'll take the blame for polution as long as you guys accept responsiblity for all your fuckups.







Oh they fought too, infact we fought fascism way back in 1927 when you we're busy dealing arms to them. And last time i checked, we won.

Communism and fascism are both part of the same family of weed...ditto Islam.

[whottt]

I know it would be simpler if we didn't complicate it needlessly with a failed nation building experiment.

Idiot....the solution to this problem is not one that can be solved by military alone.

A Democracy even if it has Theorcratic elements must be put in place in the Middle East.

Period.

That has to be accomplished or we will never win this war.


But, they're all shitty leaders. The leaders in Iraq now are shitty and beholden to the militias bent on genocide. How did we make that better? Less miserable?


They are shitty now...but the mechanism is in place to change...

You haven't got a clue why Democracy works do you?

[ChumpDumper]

Idiot....the solution to this problem is not one that can be solved by military alone.Says the guy who wants to nuke everyone.
A Democracy even if it has Theorcratic elements must be put in place in the Middle East.

Period.

That has to be accomplished or we will never win this war. Says the guy who says all of Islam is evil.
They are shitty now...but the mechanism is in place to change...

You haven't got a clue why Democracy works do you?I know why it works. You haven't got a clue that democracy doesn't always work, do you?

[whottt]

Says the guy who wants to nuke everyone.
Link? Ped?


Says the guy who says all of Islam is evil.

Link? Ped?


I know why it works. You haven't got a clue that democracy doesn't always work, do you?

It works better from our POV than Despotisms....anything is better.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't need to link all your posts in the political forum.

[whottt]

That's the answer I'd expect from a ped.

[whottt]

Bump

[ChumpDumper]

bump whattt?

[ChumpDumper]

So, do you agree with Joshua Muravchik that we should have a sustained bombing campaign in Iran?

[xrayzebra]

So, do you agree with Joshua Muravchik that we should have a sustained bombing campaign in Iran?

There will be no sustained or any other bombing plan on Iran by the United
States. Because of people like you who have no stomach or staying
power to win any war. And the dimm-o-craps who support you in DC.

But I do not believe Israel will stand-by and commit suicide by letting them
attain a nuclear bomb. They will do something, what I am not sure.

[ChumpDumper]

There will be no sustained or any other bombing plan on Iran by the United
States. Because of people like you who have no stomach or staying
power to win any war. And the dimm-o-craps who support you in DC.That wasn't the question, X.

[whottt]

Just depends....we'll need the help of Israel and some of the Sunni based countries to deal best with Iran....

And we're still not entirely sure just how closely aligned with Iran the Iraqi Shiites will be...they are only slightly more unified than the Sunni and Shia Iraqis.


Keep in mind...the Shiites are still the more progressive of the two sects of Islam with regards to women's rights and they are slighly more humane...they still consider public stoning the equivalent of monday night football...but that's generations ahead of the Sunnis...

Nuking Iran is definitely an option...they need to know and believe that we are willing to do it...checkmate.

They don't think we'll do it right now....you and your ilk definitely help give off that perception...so we definitely need a leader from whom that threat will be taken seriously...like Reagan.

Guilianni or Clark will both serve...and I don't really wish to use the nuclear solution until we have one of them in office. Threaten first...

[whottt]

Addendum...the last thing we need is some goofball asskissking lib in there like Gore or Kerry that is about as threatening as a kitten.

As big of an idiot as W comes off as...he's still more threatening than either of those two douchebags...which is why he got so many votes in 04.

[boutons_]

"he got so many votes in 04."

aka, the smallest victory margin EVER by an incumbent president. dubya won ONLY because he started a phony war urgently in 2003 (there was no urgency) PRIMARILY to run as a war president.

No phony Iraq war, no dubya second term.

Rove was absolutely brilliant in wasting 1000s of American lives to get dubya re-elected.

[velik_m]

When I said I don't want you to teach me how to live under a fascism or Islam...you can also feel free to assume that means communism as well...

You know, the weeds...


Don't knock it till you try it.



Ya'll were fucking commies...we had to wait till ya'll figured it out...

Note, we got this even though we have never been communists.


in 1918? no, we tryed to build a democracy, but you pushed us to become part of authocratic kingdom.

in 1991? we wanted an independant democracy, but you thought we should stay with a "that nice man" Milosevic. Ofcourse after independance you were eager to teach us the ways of democracy and capitalism. Luckily we ignored all the advice and became the most sucesfull transition country.



Your war not ours...


obviously...



We didn't attack any body either....until. It's still your region of the world...we'll take the blame for polution as long as you guys accept responsiblity for all your fuckups.


Name the fuckup.



Communism and fascism are both part of the same family of weed...ditto Islam.

People fighting fascism back then weren't communist.
And if you trully belive that same weed stuff, your even dumber than you look.

[whottt]

Why you wait until the Texas A&M Game is on to reply? (That's real football in case you were wondering)

I'll be back in a bit to straighten you out.


%$#@$%@ uppity Slovenian!

[velik_m]

been shoping, different timeline and all... ;)

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I'm Australian, not European, retard. How hard is that to work out?


As opposed to the quintessential lib/euro tactic...blame America.

Because none of these problems existed before America...

Yeah, that's right, speak FOR me not to me. I never said anything about these problems all being America's fault. They clearly are not. Unsurprisingly, the world does not revolve around the US and people in other places have found ways to have their own problems with each other.

However the US has worsened a lot of regional problems in the world by intervening where the shouldn't, bumbling in like you understand a situation and then being proven wrong time and again. You could get away with it pretty much untouched until the age of mass terrorism, but now we're all walking a nuclear knife edge and international interventionism is a lot more difficult.

It also doesn't help that the US proclaims democracy while allowing something like the Florida debacle, endorses free trade while protecting your farmers more than any other country, shuns international law, won't act on climate change even though the US pollutes far more than anyone else (40% GHG emissions for 4%of the world's popn), etc. Hypocrisy does not help your cause as "Guardian of Freedom".


You're spoiled, detatched from reality, and your world view would be exterminated, ruled and subjugated in a matter of seconds without mine.

WTF? I never said there isn't a place for defence policy. Hell, my father was a naval officer for 35 years. However, there was no imminent threat from Iraq, and no plan to get out, and it is an unnecessary war. It didn't need to happen, and now that it has it's become a focal point for anti-US/Western sentiment for Muslims across the world, inflaming an already volatile situation.

If you justify it on the basis of freedom for the Iraqi people, why don't you go and liberate all the other countries living under despots or in the midst of civil wars? Zimbabwe, Sudan, Ivory Coast - most of Africa - Cuba, Myanmar, Tibet, a number of Pacific Islands, etc.


I know...you guys believe in colonialism, nazism, fascism, communism, anti-semitism...cramming jews onto land promised to Arabs, cramming oppositional religious sects within the same borders, and appointing despots to rule over them so you can buy cheap oil, and then acting like America caused it...

You guys also stand for sticking it to the Germans as far up the ass as you can get it after WWI, thus causing WWII, dragging us into it...and then having the audacity to call us war mongers.

Now you're just frothing at the mouth. Please don't tell me what I think because you haven't a fucking clue.


I know exactly what you stand for...I prefer my war.

I know what your next reply could be...you could give me a lecture on evil America massacring indigenous people...

Well, blankets with smallpox was not a very nice thing to do, not to mention the alcohol, and the beads. However you are not alone there, every colonial civilisation did it, and we should all be ashamed.

[whottt]

Well, blankets with smallpox was not a very nice thing to do, not to mention the alcohol, and the beads. However you are not alone there, every colonial civilisation did it, and we should all be ashamed.



Americans didn't do that...Europeans did it. Europeans did a lot of stuff...


And I know you're an Aussie....which makes you a sattelite Euro. Albeit from one of the worthwhile mother countries...generally, usually.

Americans also didn't invent slavery...they fought wars on themselves to rid themselves of that bit of European elitism.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Americans didn't do that...Europeans did it. Europeans did a lot of stuff...


And I know you're an Aussie....which makes you a sattelite Euro. Albeit from one of the worthwhile mother countries...generally, usually.

Americans also didn't invent slavery...they fought wars on themselves to rid themselves of that bit of European elitism.

Oh, come on! That makes you a Euro too! We were all freakin Euros 500 years ago. :rolleyes

My point was that all colonial countries behaved like pigs and bullies and treated our fellow man horribly, we're all culpable.

[Bob Lanier]

whottt brings the light of Aryan culture back to the Aryan people.

[clambake]

Whottt, you've gotten everything you wanted. A liberated Iraq with democracy and freedom from Saddam. What are you complaining about?.........the outcome? This is W's plan. How could you have expected better?

Oh, and Bush said it was for oil. Remember?

[xrayzebra]

Whottt, you've gotten everything you wanted. A liberated Iraq with democracy and freedom from Saddam. What are you complaining about?.........the outcome? This is W's plan. How could you have expected better?

Oh, and Bush said it was for oil. Remember?

No you are seeing the results of your and the
Dimm-o-craps plan of cut and run. The looked
to the past and saw how effective people like
you were in VN and trying to repeat yourself
today.

Now the question is: Will you accept what
will happen after you plan of the third
"cut and run" plan. You are seeing many people
killed because of your proposed "cut and run"
policy now. And you and your bunch will and
do blame Bush. But it is your actions of
"it is all our fault" we need to "cut and run" and
declare victory that will again cost many lives
just like it has in the past. Congratulations on
your victory.

[clambake]

There's only one way this could be worse. Think about it.

What if this war NEEDED to be fought and won?

[xrayzebra]

^^You need to think about it.

That is exactly what was needed. But politics keeps
getting in way of winning anything. Wonder why?

[clambake]

So you agree with bush that the war is over oil?

[xrayzebra]

Not at all. And Bush never said that. It is about our
interest in that part of the world and our security. Oil
is part of it, but not the end all of end all.

That is the breeding ground of people who want to end
our world as we know it. Including our lives.

Some on this forum don't seem to realize that.

Anyhow, I will be back after the second half of
the OK and OSU game.....

CUL

[ChumpDumper]

That is the breeding ground of people who want to end
our world as we know it. Including our lives. Yeah.

Saudi Arabia.

[clambake]

Actually, Bush said that to Bill O'Reilly during his interview with the president.

I guess I'm the only one that lowered himself to watch that interview.

[xrayzebra]

Actually, Bush said that to Bill O'Reilly during his interview with the president.

I guess I'm the only one that lowered himself to watch that interview.


He may have, I just wasn't aware of it.

And yeah Chump the Saudis are part of the
problem, but so it Iran, Syria and the rest of
the ME. As well as some of European
countries.

I fail to understand, why Americans are not
concerned about the American interest. And
our security. It mystifies me.

All other countries do what is in their best
interest, note what happened to one of Russians
KGB agents, just this weekend, and if we do
it is wrong. Why?

[ChumpDumper]

All other countries do what is in their best
interest, note what happened to one of Russians
KGB agents, just this weekend, and if we do
it is wrong. Why?We assassinate former spys that speak out against the president with radioactive particles?

[Bob Lanier]

The British do. (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/kelly/story/0,13747,1146232,00.html)

The tautology that all countries act in their own interests, up to and including killing dissidents (as all governments, certainly including the Americans, have), does not absolve any of them from any moral culpability for their actions. That isn't difficult to understand, which leads me to believe that xray's just bullshitting. As for the charge of hypocrisy, all people act in their own interests as well, and their moral viewpoints are generally derivative of that.

[whottt]

whottt brings the light of Aryan culture back to the Aryan people.


The modern Aryans reside in the Middle East and part of Africa....and still in Europe, they're just humbled right about now...and angry.

[velik_m]

Whottt's favourite game:
http://www.kmf.org.pl/fx/link/robocop/real/31.jpg
http://www.kmf.org.pl/fx/link/robocop/real/30.jpg
"Get them before they get you!"

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Ray, please explain to me how bombing the crap out of the Middle East, destabilising the region, and riding in like Crusaders taking back the Holy Oil is in any way lessening the hatred of those people "who want to destroy us", or preventing them from doing so? It's not, it's turning more people to their cause.

Your thinking is so turned around it's insane. Somehow you believe that mass killing and subjugation of a people will lessen their tendancy to violence against their oppressor (which is the West, led by the US). That is absolutely ridiculous. :lmao :depressed

The course of human history, and every freakin Hollywood war movie for that matter, tells us that the more one race/nation/religion tries to force another race/nation/religion to their way, the more the oppressed will oppose it.

By invading Iraq without justification (and there was no link to 9/11 - the 9/11 Commission stated that, I've read the report), the US further destabilised the cradle of insanity that is the ME. In effect, your country managed to amplify the Muslim/Western divide and make religious conflict the greatest threat to the modern world. Well done. :rolleyes

[xrayzebra]

Ray, please explain to me how bombing the crap out of the Middle East, destabilising the region, and riding in like Crusaders taking back the Holy Oil is in any way lessening the hatred of those people "who want to destroy us", or preventing them from doing so? It's not, it's turning more people to their cause.

Your thinking is so turned around it's insane. Somehow you believe that mass killing and subjugation of a people will lessen their tendancy to violence against their oppressor (which is the West, led by the US). That is absolutely ridiculous. :lmao :depressed

The course of human history, and every freakin Hollywood war movie for that matter, tells us that the more one race/nation/religion tries to force another race/nation/religion to their way, the more the oppressed will oppose it.

By invading Iraq without justification (and there was no link to 9/11 - the 9/11 Commission stated that, I've read the report), the US further destabilised the cradle of insanity that is the ME. In effect, your country managed to amplify the Muslim/Western divide and make religious conflict the greatest threat to the modern world. Well done. :rolleyes

RNR, were we in Iraq or any other ME country
1993? When WTC was first bombed.

Were we in Iraq or any other ME country when
our Embassies were bombed?

Were we in Saudi Arabia at there invitation
when our barracks was bombed.

What was act of war was the Cole involved in
when it was bombed?

You need to quit worrying so much about them
and worry a little about us. The Western world.

And we have never oppressed any nation or
people in our history. On the contrary we have
rebuilt many nations and come to many nations
and people who were oppressed. So get a little
serious in your discussion.

The hatred was always there. And I might add
without American know how there would have
never been oil produced in that part of the world.

[Bob Lanier]

without American know how there would have
never been oil produced in that part of the world
:lmao Jesus.

[RandomGuy]

And we have never oppressed any nation or
people in our history. On the contrary we have
rebuilt many nations and come to many nations
and people who were oppressed. So get a little
serious in your discussion.

:wow

>BULLSHIT ALERT<---------->BULLSHIT ALERT<--------->BULLSHIT ALERT<

:nope

Let's try taking off the blinders, shall we?

There was the "peculiar institution".
http://www.slaveryinamerica.org/images/gallery/3a17639u_27.jpg
----------------------------------

Philippine-American War
(1899-1902)

This was America's first true colonial war as a world power. After defeating Spain in Cuba and in the Philippines in 1898, the U.S. purchased the Philippines, Puerto Rico and several other islands from the Spanish. However, the Filipinos had been fighting a bloody revolution against Spain since 1896, and had no intention of becoming a colony of another imperialist power. In February of 1899, fighting broke out between the occupying American Army and the Filipino forces.

Estimated deaths caused by fighting were around 500k--RG

-----------------------------------------

How many dictatorships did we prop up in the cold war?


----------------------------------------------

Honestly, the US has acted in a bit more of a moral fashion than a lot of other nations would have, but to pretend that the US is somehow innocent in all things is to not consider information for any other reason that bias.

Bias leads to faulty decision making.

[RandomGuy]

There will be no sustained or any other bombing plan on Iran by the United
States. Because of people like you who have no stomach or staying
power to win any war. And the dimm-o-craps who support you in DC.

But I do not believe Israel will stand-by and commit suicide by letting them
attain a nuclear bomb. They will do something, what I am not sure.

They will simply build more bombs and make it very clear that any attack will mean the destruction of the attacker. MAD.

[Ya Vez]

my friends it was a democrat who ordered the bombing of 2 japanese cities full of innocent civilians with atomic bombs..

so lets keep the democratic tradition of bombing alive..

[RandomGuy]

my friends it was a democrat who ordered the bombing of 2 japanese cities full of innocent civilians with atomic bombs..

so lets keep the democratic tradition of bombing alive..

Don't forget the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo.

Nasty stuff that.

[Ya Vez]

dresden and tokyo.. allowing the russian army to rape murder all the way to berlin..
carpet bombing vietnam... war is nasty stuff...

[clambake]

Bomb Iran? Bush is begging for their help in Iraq. Somehow, their not so evil. Israel must be overjoyed with this proposition.

[xrayzebra]

Why are we talking about WWII, I was told it is not
relevant to our situation today.

And yes, the mean old USA, all we ever do is plunder and
kill and rape and whatever else you want to cite.

I know it must be hell to admit you are a citizen of
the United States. But I am proud of my citizenship
and what the United States has done for many countries. And funny thing. We are talking of
building a wall to keep people out not in. How can
that be?