Jacque Vaughn > Beno Udrih

[timvp]

Not that Vaughn did anything spectacular, but Udrih got so owned in his one minute of play that it was embarrassing.

Beno comes in the game and AJ calls out a play and Anthony Johnson (Beno's cover) got a layup. Pop calls a timeout, yells at Beno to fight harder through the pick. Next play, AJ calls the same play and it results in another layup. WTF?

Udrih has sucked horribly this year and has gotten a free pass by the coaching staff and this forum for the most part. The Spurs are in a key early season game and Beno plays the softest defense and shows no will to compete.

That's a horrible sign for the Spurs supposed backup point guard.

[MannyIsGod]

Beno has played well on one side of the floor this year, but I don't think he has what it takes to be a good point guard for this team due to his defense. He may be an NBA point guard but I don't think he's a Spurs point guard.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

True dat, true dat....

[Kori Ellis]

What I have seen of Udrih this year (national tv), he has looked very good.


Beno has played well on one side of the floor this year

What?

He's shooting like 35% on the year.

[T Park]

Vaughn's D was good, he looked very rusty on offense wich is understandable.

Im sure Beno will hop off the bench sunday night against Earl Watson :( Ugh...

[dknights411]

I think that Beno just can't handle playing in a big game. And if that is really the case, then we should seriously look into trading him.

[SequSpur]

Geeze.. welcome to reality timvp.

They both fucking suck.

[Kori Ellis]

My bad, 37.8%.

He had a couple glimpses of playing well this season. Overall he has sucked offensively and defensively.

[timvp]

What?

He's shooting like 35% on the year.

And like 20% on threes. That's not even mentioning his assists. Take out his one fluke game of nine assists and he'd be averaging less assists this year than he did last year when he was barely playing.

[T Park]

Damn Portland and them being smart enough to turn down Udrih for Jack...

Maybe New Orleans is stupid enough to trade Jannero Pargo for him.

Ya think? Maybe? Please? :(

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Is my title coming in handy right now?

[Kori Ellis]

Damn Portland and them being smart enough to turn down Udrih for Jack...

Maybe New Orleans is stupid enough to trade Jannero Pargo for him.

Ya think? Maybe? Please? :(

:lol No thanks on Pargo. He shoots sub 40% from the field. About 15% on 3's. Sucks on D. And averages about 1 assist in 13mpg.

[SequSpur]

Damn Portland and them being smart enough to turn down Udrih for Jack...

Maybe New Orleans is stupid enough to trade Jannero Pargo for him.

Ya think? Maybe? Please? :(

Well the next time he goes for 8 and 10 in a game, they better be waiving him out the door like a fucking carrot.

[SequSpur]

Is my title coming in handy right now?

Boykins is 2 short and is absolutely useless in a playoff game.

[MannyIsGod]

I guess whenever I've seen him he's looked decent. I think he's missed more open jumpers than usual, but his shot making has been pretty decent.

[TDMVPDPOY]

duhorn will be a good pickup

[dknights411]

Is my title coming in handy right now?

I don't think the Nuggets are THAT stupid!

We'd have a better chance trading Beno to the Knicks for Nate Robinson. (THE Dirk stopper! :lmao)

[Texas_Ranger]

Vaughn can't make a shot, he is alway goes in the paint, and he never makes a layup. I'm not saying that he is not good, but I think Beno is better.

[pjjrfan]

I thought Vaughn killed us in the 3 and early 4th. He couldn't get anything goingg and it was shame because the start of the 4th the Spurs had ample opportunities to take over the game, but no one could score. Why Pop kept Tim and Tony sitting I just can't figure that out. I really liked that Pop pulled Beno right off, but then I felt he should have let him come back in the 2nd half and try to redeem himself, because Vaughn was like a fish out of water. He made some good plays but more than once he tried to score on drives but led to bad shots and he even got bailed out on one drive that was horrible. And he turned the ball over a couple of times there in the 3rd in key moments.

Anyway, I think Beno is going to ride some pine for a while if not for the rest of the season. Pop bailed out on Beno big time. I think Pop had flashbacks from the Detroit finals.

[T Park]

Beno hasn't played spectacularly enough to keep the job.

Id give Vaughn a couple more shots, sunday and monday.

Bigger quick good PGs in Monta Ellis and Earl Watson to deal with.

[Slomo]

I'm not arguing Beno's case (seriously how could I?)

But Jacques Vaughn? Against the Mavs?

I think I'm going to agree with Sequ on this one.

[polandprzem]

I remember timvp beeing happy about beno play lately

ohhh welll :rolleyes

[Bruno]

Beno has been horrible at defending Johnson but it's something that can be corrected in an one hour in practice.

The fourth quarter has shown why Spurs need to have Beno as backup PG. With Spurs new big 3 rotation, there are 10 mpg without Duncan and Parker and Spurs can't aford to have a PG who can't score during this 10 min.

I like the way Beno is playing on the offensive end because he is aggresive. His shot is quite off for the moment (24% 3pt%) but at least he gives some offense and allow Spurs to score some points when Duncan and Parker are on the bench.

His assists number is quite low but it's too because some Spurs players are really cold (Manu 41% FG%, Finley 32% FG% and Horry 24% FG%).

So Udrih>Vaughn, even if Beno needs to put more efforts on the defensive end and needs to be more focused but he has still 70 games to be ready. I just hope that Pop won't be tired of Beno's mistakes and play Vaughn as backup PG because he is a very limited player.

[ata]

....
His assists number is quite low but it's too because some Spurs players are really cold (Manu 41% FG%, Finley 32% FG% and Horry 24% FG%).

....

Good point.
And about Beno's shoting. Remember about Parker's shoting last season, we were all bitching that he shots to much, however it was Pop's instruction to shot more. Looking how Beno's shot is cool on too many occasions I still think, that it is Pop's instruction to shot more. Frankly, which perimeter player beside Parker and Barry has decent shot this year?


Looking at +/-, it seems that Vaughn was pretty effective. CLICK (http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20061124&game=DALSAS)

Saying that, Beno should be aware that defense buys playing time, without effort on defense, there will be bench warming only with any team - especially true with Pop as coach.

[Bruno]

And about Beno's shoting. Remember about Parker's shoting last season, we were all bitching that he shots to much, however it was Pop's instruction to shot more. Looking how Beno's shot is cool on too many occasions I still think, that it is Pop's instruction to shot more.

Agree.
If Pop wants a PG who doesn't shot, Vaughn would be Spurs' backup PG.

BTW, Beno has always shot a lot with Spurs :
2004-2005 : 13.6 FGA/40min
2005-2006 : 15.8 FGA/40min
2006-2007 : 14.5 FGA/40min

[duncan2k5]

HELL FRIGGIN NO!!! Vaughn is terrible. i think pop is just too hard on beno. if beno did some of the dumb crap vaughn did, he would have been benched. vaughn was out of control, and he dribbles the ball too much, once resulting in a 3 second violation on timmy because he was calling for the ball while jacque was dribbling in place. terrible.

beno's defense is underrated. i remember when tony couldnt stay in front of earl friggin boykins, and when beno came in, it was shutdown city. for some one so quick on offense, tony has a lot of trouble staying in front of his man.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Not that Vaughn did anything spectacular, but Udrih got so owned in his one minute of play that it was embarrassing.

Beno comes in the game and AJ calls out a play and Anthony Johnson (Beno's cover) got a layup. Pop calls a timeout, yells at Beno to fight harder through the pick. Next play, AJ calls the same play and it results in another layup. WTF?

Udrih has sucked horribly this year and has gotten a free pass by the coaching staff and this forum for the most part. The Spurs are in a key early season game and Beno plays the softest defense and shows no will to compete.

That's a horrible sign for the Spurs supposed backup point guard.

completely disagree when you are talking about the whole season, so far. He has played spectacularly well. I'm not normally a big fan of Beno's, but he has played extremely well so far.

Tony and Beno both played a lot less than usual. Neither were particularly effective at running the offense. That's why Vaughn played, imo.

[The Truth #6]

Beno's individual stats are not anything spectacular when he's played but I found an interesting stat on 82 games.

When Parker is on the court 53% of our field goals are assisted.

When Beno is on the court 69% of our field goals are assisted.

Beno might not have a high assist rate but the ball is moving around a lot more when he's out there than when Parker is out there.

I think that's an important aspect of what he brings to the team.

[TwoHandJam]

Beno has been horrible at defending Johnson but it's something that can be corrected in an one hour in practice.

The fourth quarter has shown why Spurs need to have Beno as backup PG. With Spurs new big 3 rotation, there are 10 mpg without Duncan and Parker and Spurs can't aford to have a PG who can't score during this 10 min.

I like the way Beno is playing on the offensive end because he is aggresive. His shot is quite off for the moment (24% 3pt%) but at least he gives some offense and allow Spurs to score some points when Duncan and Parker are on the bench.

His assists number is quite low but it's too because some Spurs players are really cold (Manu 41% FG%, Finley 32% FG% and Horry 24% FG%).

So Udrih>Vaughn, even if Beno needs to put more efforts on the defensive end and needs to be more focused but he has still 70 games to be ready. I just hope that Pop won't be tired of Beno's mistakes and play Vaughn as backup PG because he is a very limited player.
:tu

If you think Vaughn is our answer at point timvp then I think you're way off base. Vaughn can't spread the floor and isn't a scorer. Yes his defense is better than Beno's but we need Beno's scoring and superior passing on our second unit. That much was clear in the 3rd and 4th quarter last night when Vaughn was out there taking ill-advised shots and charging into the teeth of the defense trying to force the issue.

All our players have defensive lapses but you have to go with the player with the superior talent. Beno deserved to be benched in the 2nd but not in the 4th.

[wildbill2u]

Not that Vaughn did anything spectacular, but Udrih got so owned in his one minute of play that it was embarrassing.

Beno comes in the game and AJ calls out a play and Anthony Johnson (Beno's cover) got a layup. Pop calls a timeout, yells at Beno to fight harder through the pick. Next play, AJ calls the same play and it results in another layup. WTF?

Udrih has sucked horribly this year and has gotten a free pass by the coaching staff and this forum for the most part. The Spurs are in a key early season game and Beno plays the softest defense and shows no will to compete.

That's a horrible sign for the Spurs supposed backup point guard.
Wasn't it just a week or so ago that pop said Beno was really playing well. I don't understand his coaching decisions on personnel and during games. If Pop wanted Beno as the backup, then let him play.

Sometimes a player will get beat a couple of times and suddenly finds out what is happening and 'gets it' and plays better. Sometimes a player is just overmatched by another player on offense--but he can still run the team and make some shots on his own. Tal\king a player out of the rotation for a couple of bad plays is stupid. Everyone makes mistakes.

You can't expect ANY player, much less a backup, to consistently beat every opposing player in every category. If they could, they'd be playing in the All star game. Even Parker got torched a few times by the Dallas guards last year and this game as well.

[CaptainLate]

Beno's individual stats are not anything spectacular when he's played but I found an interesting stat on 82 games.

When Parker is on the court 53% of our field goals are assisted.

When Beno is on the court 69% of our field goals are assisted.

Beno might not have a high assist rate but the ball is moving around a lot more when he's out there than when Parker is out there.

Pop has been quoted as saying Beans is the team's best passer. Pop playing the baby and pulling him in the first half is one thing. But to purposely hurt the team's chances of winning by not reinserting your backup PG in the second half (like you did with Horry and Finley) to see if he's got his head back is just stupid.

[timvp]

But Jacques Vaughn?
There's no s in Jacque. Just like there's no jumpshot in his game.

:smokin


Looking at +/-, it seems that Vaughn was pretty effective. CLICK (http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20061124&game=DALSAS)


Vaughn had the best +/- on the team last night. But like I've always said, Vaughn is a third point guard -- not a backup point guard. I'm still hoping Beno can win the job for another reason other than the Spurs have no one else to go to.


BTW, Beno has always shot a lot with Spurs :
2004-2005 : 13.6 FGA/40min
2005-2006 : 15.8 FGA/40min
2006-2007 : 14.5 FGA/40min

The difference is Beno used to make shots.

2004-2005 : .408 3P%
2005-2006 : .343 3P%
2006-2007 : .240 3P%

Pretty soon he's going to be shooting a negative percentage.


beno's defense is underrated.
If by underrated you mean overrated, I agree with you.

When Beno's been on the court this season, the opponents are shooting 51.1% from the field. That is freakin' astronomical. He's played plenty of minutes so this isn't a fluke.

He hasn't put any effort into his defense other than a few games and it's costing the Spurs. If the Spurs were playing defense 4 on 5, they still shouldn't be allowing 51.1% field goal percentage.


completely disagree when you are talking about the whole season, so far. He has played spectacularly well. I'm not normally a big fan of Beno's, but he has played extremely well so far.

Spectacularly well? Have you looked at any numbers?



Tony and Beno both played a lot less than usual. Neither were particularly effective at running the offense. That's why Vaughn played, imo.

Tony played three more minutes than he averages for the season.

Beno was benched because the Mavs had plays designed to take advantage of his weak defense and the plays worked on back-to-back possessions.

Fact.



If you think Vaughn is our answer at point timvp then I think you're way off base.

Where did I say Vaughn is the answer? I've been on record and I stay on record saying Vaughn is a third string point guard. That said, Beno has played a lot of games this year where he's played like a fourth string point guard.

If he's not going to bring effort defensively, I don't agree with letting him have the backup point guard job just because the Spurs have no other options. Beno needs to start trying and it'd help if the entire Spurs Nation including the coaching staff stopped giving him a free pass.


Beno deserved to be benched in the 2nd but not in the 4th.

And I said the same. Better to find out now if the Spurs have to trade for a backup point rather than in the Finals like last time.

Again, I want Beno to succeed and be a solid backup point for the Spurs but so far this year his lack of defense and lack of being able to hit shots has made him a liability in more games than not.

[timvp]

Opponents Field Goal Percentage with Beno Udrih on the Floor

2004-05: 45.2%
2005-06: 46.8%
2006-07: 51.1%

When does it come the point where Beno is accountable for his defense? Everyone wants to just give him a free pass but I think he needs to actually try on defense from time to time.

[Bruno]

The difference is Beno used to make shots.

2004-2005 : .408 3P%
2005-2006 : .343 3P%
2006-2007 : .240 3P%

Pretty soon he's going to be shooting a negative percentage.

A shooter shouldn't stop shooting even after a 10 bad games streak.
Udrih is a good shooter, his shoot will come back (it's true too for Finley).

[E20]

Damn, you guys need to learn how to use the verb shoot/shot.

It hurts my eyes reading this.

[ChumpDumper]

Beno's always been aggressive with the shots, it just seems his selection isn't as good this season.

[timvp]

A shooter shouldn't stop shooting even after a 10 bad games streak.
Udrih is a good shooter, his shoot will come back (it's true too for Finley).

I want to believe that but Udrih's best two months of his career shooting the ball were his first two months in the NBA. I hope he's just been off since then rather than other teams adjusting to his game.

[ShoogarBear]

But he's so cuuuuuute!

[Bruno]

I want to believe that but Udrih's best two months of his career shooting the ball were his first two months in the NBA. I hope he's just been off since then rather than other teams adjusting to his game.

So you ask Beno to be a 49% 3 point shooter?

To me, 36% (like after the ASG last year) is enough.

[Kori Ellis]

completely disagree when you are talking about the whole season, so far. He has played spectacularly well. I'm not normally a big fan of Beno's, but he has played extremely well so far.

You must have only watch the 1-2 games where he played decent. The rest of the season, he's been horrible.

[Kori Ellis]

So you ask Beno to be a 49% 3 point shooter?

To me, 36% (like after the ASG last year) is enough.


So you agree that the 20% or whatever he is shooting right now isn't enough, correct?

[Bruno]

So you agree that the 20% or whatever he is shooting right now isn't enough, correct?

Of course, I've never said that it was enough.

[timvp]

If Beno can shoot 44% from the floor, 35% from three and average 8 assists per 48 minutes, I'd be happy. And then on defense, he needs to get back to how he was playing as a rookie. Right now, he's shooting 35% from the field, 24% from three and averaging 6.1 assists per 48 minutes ... and opponents are shooting 51.1% when he's been on the floor.

And honestly, I'd settle for better defense and more passing. Right now he comes into games thinking shot first. He's supposed to be the playmaking point guard who gets everyone involved when Tony Parker rests. But as it is, Tony averages more assists per minute even though his job is to score and Beno's job is to pass.

[whottt]

But as it is, Tony averages more assists per minute even though his job is to score and Beno's job is to pass.


I'm wondering how much Pop has to do with this mindset after watching Vaughn....maybe he wants them thinking score first. Im my wildest dreams I can't imagine Vaughn thinking he was supposed to take over the game in the 4th last night without Pop encouraging that sort of thinking.

I've never known Vaughn to be a chucker like that prior to the Spurs...and usually guys are hesitant to shoot if left to their own devices when first coming to the Spurs.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, I was thinking he got the green light as an experiment. I know it pisses people off, but it is November after all.

[whottt]

Does anyone remember that when Parker first started for the Spurs he was always looking pass first...you have to go way back to remember that but I remember it...I remember Drob and Duncan being stunned to find the ball in their hands right under the basket when Parker had sure layups.

That's why to this day I still say Parker is a better passer than he shows...he showed it when he first started.

[Slomo]

There's no s in Jacque. Just like there's no jumpshot in his game.

:smokin

I know there isn't...

...I'm just saying there should be.

[ata]

Where did I say Vaughn is the answer? I've been on record and I stay on record saying Vaughn is a third string point guard. That said, Beno has played a lot of games this year where he's played like a fourth string point guard.
And at the same time the title of your thread is JV > BU ??

[SKINNYPIMP210]

Vaughn Did A Very Solid Job Last Night. Exspecially On The Defensive End Of The Floor. And On The Offensive Side He Did Alright. But You Gotta Remember That We Didn't Have Ginobili For The Entire 4th Quarter, So If Manu Was In There With Vaughn Then I Think Our Offense Would Of Done Pretty Well And We Would Have Won The Game.

[ShoogarBear]

And at the same time the title of your thread is JV > BU ??If Beno is going to play like a fourth string, it's a true statement.

[angel_luv]

What I would have liked to have seen last night was for Pop to train Beno as he did Tony-yell at him for whatever he did/ did not do and then put him back in the game.

I will give Pop that in yesterday's situation he was trying to win a close game against Dallas and could have felt Vaughn was the best fit.

That said I think it would be vindictive and unhelpful for Pop to bench Beno on this road trip.

[angel_luv]

I hope that last post made sense. It took me a half hour to write- I had no customers at all in the mall until opened the reply box and then they kept coming.

Anyway, all that to say I have faith in Pop as a coach and a lot of faith in Beno as our back up point guard.
I am optimistic that everything will work out well. :)

[TwoHandJam]

Where did I say Vaughn is the answer?
Ummm... I'm not sure the title of your thread is open to much interpretation unless 7>4 only some of the time?


If he's not going to bring effort defensively, I don't agree with letting him have the backup point guard job just because the Spurs have no other options. Beno needs to start trying and it'd help if the entire Spurs Nation including the coaching staff stopped giving him a free pass.
I agree that his defense has been hideous but I disagree that the coaching staff has been giving him a free pass. Pop roasted him in the press in a way I have never seen him attack a player publicly in a long time, if ever.

Anyhow, I'm glad you agree with me that it was dumb of Pop to keep him on the bench in favor of Vaughn in the 4th. Pop's heavy handedness and stubborness pisses me off sometimes and in this case it might have contributed to us losing a very close game. You can get in Beno's face and bench him for a while but there's no reason to bench him for the entire game.

It's clear that Pop has his favorites. Antonio Daniels was his whipping boy for years and now Beno seems to be the replacement. There's a designated one every year. Last year Barry was benched and almost traded for playing twice as well as Finley has been playing this season. Let's not forget that Beno's supporting cast on the second unit is shooting around 35% as a team so he's certainly not the only problem.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't know what part of LJ's logic you are missing.

Saying Jacque > Beno does not necessarily mean Jacque is the answer at backup ponit.

It means Beno had better make himself the answer or we need to find someone else to be the answer.

[ata]

I don't know what part of LJ's logic you are missing.

Saying Jacque > Beno does not necessarily mean Jacque is the answer at backup ponit.

It means Beno had better make himself the answer or we need to find someone else to be the answer.

Sorry, I may be slow, however:

Title of the thread: Jacque Vaughn > Beno Udrih

and


Where did I say Vaughn is the answer? I've been on record and I stay on record saying Vaughn is a third string point guard. That said, Beno has played a lot of games this year where he's played like a fourth string point guard.


Could you please explain me the logic behind. Saying "JV > BU" and at the same time "Vaughn is third string PG" just doesn't make much sense, except if timvp thinks that Beno should be fourth string!

I still remember, how timvp praised NVE last season and even after game 6 (!!) of semi, he wrote, that he expect from NVE to bust-out. All Spurs got from NVE was just big bust, and I can't remember timvp to constatly rub NVE's ass for poor performance (or questioning Pop's 2nd worst decision of the season i.e. playing NVE - 1st was small ball).

I know, that Beno is no All-Star material, however he is getting more criticism as he deserves from certain members of this board. At the same time some good performances are judged as "fluke".

Please, at least try to stay objective.

[ChumpDumper]

Could you please explain me the logic behind. Saying "JV > BU" and at the same time "Vaughn is third string PG" just doesn't make much sense, except if timvp thinks that Beno should be fourth string!He has said that Beno has played that way.
Please, at least try to stay objective.We are.

Vaughn fits this team as a third point guard.

Beno may not fit this team as a second point guard.

This team needs a second point guard.

[smeagol]

Jacque Vaughn > Beno Udrih

No.

[cherylsteele]

That's not even mentioning his assists.
Why do people alway look at stats and numbers?
Just because Beno doesn't have a high assist average doesn't mean he is not a good passer. Many times the pass that sets up an assist is more just as or more important as the actual assist itself.

Many of you were saying if Beno could cut down on his mistakes and turnovers you be okay with him. I haven't seem make the turnovers as much this year so far against pressure.

[ShoogarBear]

I haven't seen anybody really pressure Beno this year, so I don't know how he'll react.

[wildbill2u]

There is a strange lack of consistency on this forum. No, I don't mean about Beno's play. I just read the "Grades" for the Miami game.

Beno was in the mid 80s for that game--but the kicker is that his grade for the season was 76, only one point behind Parker, everyone's candidate for the All-Star game this year.

[timvp]

There is a strange lack of consistency on this forum. No, I don't mean about Beno's play. I just read the "Grades" for the Miami game.

Beno was in the mid 80s for that game--but the kicker is that his grade for the season was 76, only one point behind Parker, everyone's candidate for the All-Star game this year.

Beno doesn't have that high of a standard to live up to. If he comes in and doesn't make too many mistakes, he is going to be graded well because his job is to keep the team afloat. If he does more than that -- like hit a few shots or make some good passes -- he's going to grade really well.

Parker as the starting point guard and the guy in control of the ball for the Spurs most of the time, probably has to do the most to live up to expectations. For him to qualify as having a good game, he has to score 20+ points, shoot well, pass well, push the ball well, defend well and limit turnovers.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I wonder how much slack beno would get if he was grotesque and smelled of spoiled sandwhiches.

[wildbill2u]

Beno doesn't have that high of a standard to live up to. If he comes in and doesn't make too many mistakes, he is going to be graded well because his job is to keep the team afloat. If he does more than that -- like hit a few shots or make some good passes -- he's going to grade really well.

Parker as the starting point guard and the guy in control of the ball for the Spurs most of the time, probably has to do the most to live up to expectations. For him to qualify as having a good game, he has to score 20+ points, shoot well, pass well, push the ball well, defend well and limit turnovers.
Exactly. Beno's game for the year is passing for his talents, but not above average, based on his ability.

So far, methinks Vaughn hasn't played enough to get a bench mark for his play.

[baseline bum]

They both suck. God, I wanted the Spurs to pull a backup PG so badly in the offseason. That was the second biggest weakness on the team last year, and it might be the #1 this season.

[BeerIsGood!]

So backup point guards aren't growing on trees anymore??

[SlovenianGuy]

You must have only watch the 1-2 games where he played decent. The rest of the season, he's been horrible.

Why is his +/- stat still among the best?

T. Duncan 104
M. Ginobili 76
B. Bowen 75
B. Barry 56
B. Udrih 42
F. Oberto 39
R. Horry 33
T. Parker 31
F. Elson 12
M. Finley 8
J. Vaughn 0

1 or 2 good games can't be the answer.

[timvp]

Why is his +/- stat still among the best?

T. Duncan 104
M. Ginobili 76
B. Bowen 75
B. Barry 56
B. Udrih 42
F. Oberto 39
R. Horry 33
T. Parker 31
F. Elson 12
M. Finley 8
J. Vaughn 0

1 or 2 good games can't be the answer.

Where did you get those +/- numbers? :lol

Beno is the third worst on the team in +/- only ahead of Finley and Elson.

[SlovenianGuy]

Where did you get those +/- numbers? :lol

Beno is the third worst on the team in +/- only ahead of Finley and Elson.

nba.com (http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo/lenovo_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22006&split=9&team=Spurs)

Still funny?

[timvp]

nba.com (http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo/lenovo_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22006&split=9&team=Spurs)

Still funny?

Yes. Rather funny that the NBA has bad stats published. I'll add them up manually when I have the time but I'd go with the site that has been tracking +/- for years (82games.com).

[Kori Ellis]

IMO Beno looked good against Dallas (the first game), Chicago and Houston. He was okay in a garbage game against the Heat.

But mostly he has been chucking, shooting poorly, and playing non-existent D.

I have faith that his shot will come around because I know he's a good shooter.

I just hope it happens very soon so that Pop doesn't go to Vaughn a lot. Because even if Beno can't defend, if he shoots well and can handle the ball, he will stay on the floor. But if he does none of it, then Pop is stuck using Vaughn. And I don't think that's good for the team in the long run.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Duncan +17.3
Barry +8.5
Ginobili +7.7
Parker +7.6
Oberto +0.2
Horry -1.2
Bowen-5.1
Udrih -5.6
Vaughn -5.9
Finley -7.0
Bonner -9.3
Elson -10.0
Butler -26.7
According to 82games.com

[timvp]

Well, another game and another Beno benching. Beno got blown by on defense again, this time by Luke Ridnour.

He also handled a two-for-one situation at the end of the third about as poorly as one can handle it. He somehow managed to take a bad shot and then play such bad defense that Ridnour got a shot off to make it a two-for-one for the Sonics :lol

Beno's defense right now is bottom 10 in the league. Seriously.

[Kori Ellis]

Pop got really mad at him tonight after the blown 2-for-1.

I think this is when he came off the court.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20061127/capt.c234d8b1e0f44dddaf1d60932611301c.spurs_supers onics_basketball_wajb101.jpg

[T Park]

Jannero Pargo looks like Chris Paul compared to this pretty boy stiff.

[whottt]

Pargo sucks.

[Bruno]

I haven't watch the game but if Beno stop playing defense (he has never been a great defender but was decent in his rookie year), he will be benched and traded soon.

[AFBlue]

Whereas the other night, I thought Beno's benching for the entire game was an overreaction, this one was pretty warranted. Beno made a couple good plays, but he took some very bad shots and made some pretty bad decisions in the time he was given.

I hope Pop isn't in his head. Beno plays the best when he's confident in his shot and his playmaking ability.

Oh and my opinion on this post, no way is Vaughn better than Beno.

[TwoHandJam]

I have faith that his shot will come around because I know he's a good shooter.

I just hope it happens very soon so that Pop doesn't go to Vaughn a lot. Because even if Beno can't defend, if he shoots well and can handle the ball, he will stay on the floor. But if he does none of it, then Pop is stuck using Vaughn. And I don't think that's good for the team in the long run.
I'm don't think Beno will stay on the floor if he does everything else well but doesn't defend. Pop generally doesn't care if you're MJ on the court if you don't bring any defensive effort.

That's what I'm really afraid will happen to Beno if he plays defense like he has been. He'll be benched for Vaughn and that will suck in the long run.

[Obstructed_View]

Nobody on the Spurs brought any defensive effort for the entire first half, so benching the most fragile ego on the team for fucking up seems hugely counterproductive. Oh fucking well. Maybe they can trade him for cash or something.

[ShoogarBear]

Nobody on the Spurs brought any defensive effort for the entire first half, so benching the most fragile ego on the team for fucking up seems hugely counterproductive.True. Which makes what Beno did--standing out as unquestionably the worst defensive effort of all--an incredible, mind-boggling accomplishment.

[Obstructed_View]

True. Which makes what Beno did--standing out as unquestionably the worst defensive effort of all--an incredible, mind-boggling accomplishment.
I'll have to take people's word for it. Watching it live I thought the last layup was Barry's mistake, but I was at a house without DVR and couldn't rewind. I still don't think that Pop or others on this board have overreacted to anyone's mistakes as much as Beno's. So why not just cut him and get it over with?

[ShoogarBear]

Probably because if he gave the effort, he'd be one of the best backup point guards in the league.

[Obstructed_View]

Probably because if he gave the effort, he'd be one of the best backup point guards in the league.
But he can't do it from the bench. What does keeping him out for the entire game teach him again?

[ShoogarBear]

Um, that if he wants to play, he'd better not let his man go backdoor on consecutive plays, especially when his coach calls a timeout between play #1 and play #2 solely to point out that fact?

If Beno had come down and shot a long jumper with 19 seconds on the shot clock, and Pop called timeout, and then on the next play he did it again, wouldn't that be cause for some pinage?

[Obstructed_View]

Um, that if he wants to play, he'd better not let his man go backdoor on consecutive plays, especially when his coach calls a timeout between play #1 and play #2 solely to point out that fact?

If Beno had come down and shot a long jumper with 19 seconds on the shot clock, and Pop called timeout, and then on the next play he did it again, wouldn't that be cause for some pinage?
Some? Yes. Back to my original question: What does keeping him out for the entire game teach him again?

[ShoogarBear]

That he won't be given an opportunity to do that three times?

[Obstructed_View]

Great. Cutting him would keep him from doing it once.

[ShoogarBear]

Of course, I have no firsthand knowledge. My only guess is that it's like raising kids.

Some can learn just from pointing out their mistakes. Others, for whatever reason, only get it after they've experienced the penalty.

[AFBlue]

Of course, I have no firsthand knowledge. My only guess is that it's like raising kids.

Some can learn just from pointing out their mistakes. Others, for whatever reason, only get it after they've experienced the penalty.


But that penalty was a heavy price to pay for the Spurs. I'm convinced that even with his mistakes, Beno would've been the better option down the stretch for the Spurs in that game...

[Obstructed_View]

Of course, I have no firsthand knowledge. My only guess is that it's like raising kids.

Some can learn just from pointing out their mistakes. Others, for whatever reason, only get it after they've experienced the penalty.
It seems so out of character for a coach that allowed Parker and Ginobili to just play through their mistakes early in their careers.

[T Park]

It seems so out of character for a coach that allowed Parker and Ginobili to just play through their mistakes early in their careers.
prob because he could see how good they are, and that Beno ISNT, or maybe, because Beno does so little with so much.

[Obstructed_View]

prob because he could see how good they are, and that Beno ISNT, or maybe, because Beno does so little with so much.
Sorry, but even you know better than that.

First of all, you can't judge the situation with hindsight. Nobody knew if Parker or Ginobili were going to develop. Parker made bad decisions and Manu was a turnover machine. Neither of them had any more potential than Beno, nor was either a higher draft pick. So why has Pop retarded Beno's development with the extended dog house time and the quick hooks? I don't recall his ever having done that with any other young player that the team has developed.

Besides, if Beno is as bad as you say then why the FUCK did the Spurs pick up his option less than a month ago?? Embarassing him, bad mouthing him to the press and sitting him out of games isn't exactly increasing his trade value, so why not just cut him? In fact, why am I the only person that says the Spurs should cut him when so many of you think he's completely useless as a basketball player?