Rosen: Duncan, "The best"

[zocool16]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6206360

The NBA's best
Since more and more NBA watchers have ventured to rank the league's best players, it likewise behooves me to do the same. However, for the sake of brevity, here are what I consider to be the league's top seven players:

1. Tim Duncan: Because he does everything. Score, rebound, pass and defend. And because an outstanding big can directly and indirectly influence any given ball game much more so than a little or a medium.

2. Kobe Bryant: Because he also can do everything (when the spirit and/or Phil Jackson moves him). Kobe is certainly the best non-big in the game, a superb rebounder, an unparalleled clutch scorer, a terrific practitioner of both perimeter shot-making and irresistible penetrations, a potential shut-down defender (see the above qualification) and an adept (if not always an eager) passer. It's his versatility that separates him from the other non-centers.

3. Dwyane Wade: Because of his dynamic talents, his clutch performances and because he works hard to improve his weaknesses (defense and outside shooting).

4. LeBron James: Because of his rare combination of skills, speed and strength. LBJ is not rated any higher because his defense is still atrocious, and because his long-distance dialing remains iffy.

5. Steve Nash: Because of the (nearly) unblemished fashion in which he orchestrates the Suns' offense. Indeed, it's Nash's vision, unselfishness and ability to create his own shot opportunities that have unilaterally made a terrific team out of what is only a good team. His only flaws are a total lack of straight-up defense and a fragile physique.

6. Shawn Marion: Because he can score without having his number called, he can rebound like a big and he can play top-notch defense (albeit not as consistently as he used to).

7. Chauncey Billups: Because he's a master of all trades. In the clutch, Billups can come up with whatever play is needed to produce a win — from a score to a rebound to a stop to a perfect pass.

[themvp]

I'll put Dirk instead of Marion.

[Zunni]

This is actually shocking, because Rosen is a complete Laker pimp and shill. If Phil Jackson is on the golf course, Rosen is washing his balls for him.

[stéphane]

I'll put Dirk instead of Marion.
:tu

[MaNuMaNiAc]

How can he not put Dirk in there? I'm sorry, Billups and Marion before Dirk?? what is he smoking??

[Zunni]

Marion is only a complementary player, one of the best in the league, but complementary. He doesn't belong.

[themvp]

But it's great having Duncan at no.1

[td4mvp21]

Dirk should be on there instead of Billups/Marion, thats ridiculous.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

1 Tim Duncan
2 Lebron James
3 Dwyane Wade
4 Kobe Bryant
5 Dirk Nowitzki
6 Steve Nash

[duncan2k5]

1 Tim Duncan
2 Lebron James
3 Dwyane Wade
4 Kobe Bryant
5 Dirk Nowitzki
6 Steve Nash
:)

[George Gervin's Afro]

You could make an argument that Dirk should be in the top 3..

[Zunni]

You could make an argument that Dirk should be in the top 3..
You certainly could, especially if by "player" you mean both sides of the ball. LeBronze and Wade are almost totally disinterested in playing D, other than going for the occasional steal.

[foodie2]

You certainly could, especially if by "player" you mean both sides of the ball. LeBronze and Wade are almost totally disinterested in playing D, other than going for the occasional steal.

By this you are implying that Dirk plays defense?

I would have to agree that he belongs high on this list, but let us not kid ourselves about his defensive effort.

[ChumpDumper]

I think all Rosen and Sam Smith columns should be posted in the Troll forum.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:lol

[dave]

1. tim duncan
2. lebron james
3. rasho nesterovic
4. kobe bryant
5. dirk nowitzki
6. steve nash

[xamila rey]

no Dirk?
wtf and Rasho #3????? :spin

[ShoogarBear]

How many of you would take Marion over KG?








That's what I thought.

[CubanMustGo]

Good to see Charley Rosenbag is keeping his reputation as one of the worst writers covering the NBA.

[Mavs<Spurs]

1 Tim Duncan
2 Lebron James
3 Dwyane Wade
4 Kobe Bryant
5 Dirk Nowitzki
6 Steve Nash


That's how I would go. :tu

[Mavs<Spurs]

By this you are implying that Dirk plays defense?

I would have to agree that he belongs high on this list, but let us not kid ourselves about his defensive effort.

Wade and LeBron play a lot more d than Dirk.

Wade gambles too much. Dirk is a nonfactor on defense.
LeBron's sheer athleticism allows him to make a defensive play when he feels like it.

Dirk plays no defense to speak of.

[ShoogarBear]

I'm still not sure I would take Dirk or Nash over KG.

[1Parker1]

I like the list....minus the Marion input as everyone else already mentioned. And Nash is a little too high on the list.

What interests me is the #3 and #4 spots, if we're looking at individual players, I'd have to rank Lebron over Wade.

[TDfan2007]

1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Wade
5. KG
6. Dirk
7. Nash

[TDMVPDPOY]

KG is overrated, he does everything but = loses

[dirk4mvp]

I'm still not sure I would take Dirk or Nash over KG.


That'd be your loss. KG ever accomplished any wins of importance.

And you all can talk about Dirk's non-D all you wan't, but he plays a helluva lot more D than Nash does.

[ChumpDumper]

That'd be your loss. KG ever accomplished any wins of importance. Never been on a team with a good GM.

[T Park]

The bill simmons column, really really made me feel bad for him.

Garnett that is...

[Zunni]

Never been on a team with a good GM.
McHale should have been fired YEARS ago.

[1Parker1]

Never been on a team with a good GM.


By that token, AI should be in the top 8 as well....

[TDMVPDPOY]

KG should not have a free pass or allowed to complain when ur earnin half ur teams cap....

[ShoogarBear]

KG should not have a free pass or allowed to complain when ur earnin half ur teams cap....Yeah, that's real pertinent to this discussion.

And LMAO at the Mavs fans talking shit about Dirk over KG.

I'd like to see what would happen if Dirk ever played on a shit team. He'd fold easier than a paper cup.

[RonMexico]

Yeah, that's real pertinent to this discussion.

And LMAO at the Mavs fans talking shit about Dirk over KG.

I'd like to see what would happen if Dirk ever played on a shit team. He'd fold easier than a paper cup.


Exactly - except he did fold in the 4th quarter of all their losses in the Finals as just a precursor to your argument. Dirk doesn't play D (when he does, he's not called for fouls, which we all saw in the final 5 minutes of the Friday night game), and he doesn't show up when it counts, except when he's getting 24 FT attempts per game....

Nash doesn't play good individual D, but he generally plays smart team defense by playing the passing lanes and doesn't get into foul trouble, which is important because he is the player the Suns need most on the court... I'd trade Amare for Marion on the list in about 6 months (hopefully - and if he can take a class from Duncan on how to nail the 15-19 ft jumper).

[timvp]

I used to not respect Dirk too much but not anymore. The team around him isn't that good and he got them to the finals. Josh Howard and Jason Terry? Those guys are borderline All-Stars at best. Who else on the Mavs is that exceptionally talented?

Dirk has evolved into a freaking monster. Last year in the playoffs in the first three rounds and two games into the Finals, he was playing at amazingly high level.

Dirk > KG. Easily.

KG right now has enough talent around him that he should make the playoffs. Dirk doesn't have close to as much talent around him as Duncan or Shaq have and he'll make it deep into the playoffs.

[ShoogarBear]

I used to not respect Dirk too much but not anymore. The team around him isn't that good and he got them to the finals. Josh Howard and Jason Terry? Those guys are borderline All-Stars at best. Who else on the Mavs is that exceptionally talented?

Dirk has evolved into a freaking monster. Last year in the playoffs in the first three rounds and two games into the Finals, he was playing at amazingly high level.

Dirk > KG. Easily.

KG right now has enough talent around him that he should make the playoffs. Dirk doesn't have close to as much talent around him as Duncan or Shaq have and he'll make it deep into the playoffs.The only reason this is even being discussed is because of Drik's season last year, and the only reason he had that is because AJ whipped his ass into shape. KG never had a coach who understands how to win in the postseason.

If AJ could finally get Dirk to make an occasional foray into the lane, what do you think he'd be able to do with Garnett? What would he have done with a power forward who actually does more than pay lip service to playing defense?

Put Dirk into that mess in Minnesota, and they win 20 games while he sets the record for most three-pointers attempted.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

The only reason this is even being discussed is because of Drik's season last year, and the only reason he had that is because AJ whipped his ass into shape. KG never had a coach who understands how to win in the postseason.

If AJ could finally get Dirk to make an occasional foray into the lane, what do you think he'd be able to do with Garnett? What would he have done with a power forward who actually does more than pay lip service to playing defense?

Put Dirk into that mess in Minnesota, and they win 20 games while he sets the record for most three-pointers attempted.
Interesting.

[timvp]

The only reason this is even being discussed is because of Drik's season last year, and the only reason he had that is because AJ whipped his ass into shape. KG never had a coach who understands how to win in the postseason.

If AJ could finally get Dirk to make an occasional foray into the lane, what do you think he'd be able to do with Garnett? What would he have done with a power forward who actually does more than pay lip service to playing defense?

Put Dirk into that mess in Minnesota, and they win 20 games while he sets the record for most three-pointers attempted.

Yeah, but you put KG on Dallas and the Spurs sweep them. Dallas killed the Spurs with offense. The Spurs didn't have a player who was capable of guarding Dirk. Dirk caused all the matchup problems.

Replace him with KG and the Spurs have Duncan and Horry to go against him. That's two players who have had huge success against him in the playoffs. Even Nazr and Rasho wouldn't have been horrible matchups.

In KG's one playoff run past the first round, he was the third option late in games behind Cassell and Sprewell. Dirk turned the corner last year and joined the Tim Duncan status as a bigman who is a certified go-to option late in games in the playoffs.

[ShoogarBear]

Yeah, but you put KG on Dallas and the Spurs sweep them. Dallas killed the Spurs with offense. The Spurs didn't have a player who was capable of guarding Dirk. Dirk caused all the matchup problems.

Replace him with KG and the Spurs have Duncan and Horry to go against him. That's two players who have had huge success against him in the playoffs. Even Nazr and Rasho wouldn't have been horrible matchups.

In KG's one playoff run past the first round, he was the third option late in games behind Cassell and Sprewell. Dirk turned the corner last year and joined the Tim Duncan status as a bigman who is a certified go-to option late in games in the playoffs.a) The whole point is an AJ-coached KG is not the same as a Flip-coached KG. He wouldn't have been the third option.

b) Dirk didn't beat us. Terry and Howard and Harris did because we were so worried about Dirk (aka Small Ball).

[whottt]

:corn:

[whottt]

My .02...

I think TimVP is right to an extent...I disagree that Dirk's team isn't that good, he's got guys that make it impossible to double team him, and he's always had that. I hate Terry as much as anyone but Terry is pretty good at punishing people that leave him open, and he's clutch. Stack has been the best player on a division winner before. KG would definitely have had more success in his career had he had some of Dirk's supporting casts.

But that doesn't make Dirk any easier to guard.

KG is much more of a traditional bigman than Dirk. Dirk is the biggest shooting guard in NBA history.

There's never been a 7 footer that can move, get his own shot off the dribble and then shoot like Dirk. It's not going into the paint that makes Dirk tough...it's his shooting. IF KG went more into the paint than he does now...he'd still be nowhere near the deadly shooter Dirk is.

KG can't shoot anything like that, not even in the same stratosphere as Dirk...sure he's a pretty good shooter and perimeter player compared to most 7 footers in NBA history...

But Dirk is a pretty good shooter and perimeter player compared to any shooter and perimeter player in NBA history, without being 7 feet tall....make him 7 feet tall and he's an impossibly good shooter. That's what makes him tough...Dirk is a lot closer to Kobe or TMac than he is to Garnett offensively.

[timvp]

a) The whole point is an AJ-coached KG is not the same as a Flip-coached KG. He wouldn't have been the third option.

I agree that AJ is a demi-god but he wouldn't be able to turn KG into a nightmare matchup for the Spurs. Was he going to teach KG the art of hitting three-pointers?

Even if KG was being a monster and averaging 40 a game, the Spurs can handle that (See: Stoudemire, Amare). What the Spurs couldn't handle was a big they had to guard with a small. How many times have you seen Bowen switched off on KG?


b) Dirk didn't beat us. Terry and Howard and Harris did because we were so worried about Dirk (aka Small Ball).

Uh, Dirk averaged 27.1 points and 13.3 rebounds while shooting 53% from the floor. He also got to the free-throw line 80 times where he shot over 90%. He averaged 1.73 points per shot, by far the best number on the Mavs. No one outside of Dirk shot over 45% for the series against the Spurs.

Dirk was the one hitting the clutch shots from the field and the line in games 3, 4 and 7. Dirk was awesome. I dislike the Mavs as much as anyone but I have to show respect where respect is due.

Dirk was a machine and was playing at a higher level than KG ever has.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i think you cant really switch players on every other team, cause you gotto look at other stuff besides switchin players, for example coaching, players, salary cap.

Dirk went to a team that was clearly rebuilding, same situation as KG, but KG fuckd up by signin up a huge contract that took up half the teams cap that didnt give them any flexibility in the FA market, plus playin in the sticks wont attract players besides gold digger players. Had KG played with the mavs, i dont think it will change either, Cuban would just throw a max at him and he would signed it and not care about the future besides his own. So he should also take the blame for his responsibility.

Lookd at the players he had at his disposal with the pups:
marbury = self claimed best PG in teh league hahaha
spree + cassell = made the idiot mvp overnight and then when things go wrong due to thier personnel needs and wants, the team folded and both was shown the door, if KG was a leader than he wouldve set them down and talk to them, but we do not know the inside story so he shouldve taken probable measures with the matter if he is to be a vocal leader of the court.
Billups = yeh he wasnt that good, but when he left he played good
rasho = dude won a ring with us for godsakes PWNED

[dg7md]

Duncan
Kobe
LeBron
Dirk (although switched between LeBron given a nightly basis)
Wade
Nash
AND if we're going by the "the team is only ok without him, good with him" arguement that people use for Nash ALL the time, you HAVE to put Gasol into consideration as the seventh best player.

I mean, KG has the stats, but really, his teams should never be as bad as they are, not like his teammates are downright awful. Look at Atlanta, they're doing better than last year and their "leader" is Joe Johnson!

Gasol is in the top 10 best NBA players and nobody really talks about it much, although when the Grizzlies start winning with Gasol back I hope he gets some credit.

Suns are sucking WITH Nash this year!

Gasol had a break out year last year, won the championship in FIBA with Spain (sure he didn't play in the final game, but still), and his team is terrible without him, and a good team with him.

But Marion and Billups are top 15 players in my mind, but no means should they be in the top 7. Marion is the perfect complimentary player, and Billups is a top 5 PG, but not top 7 overall! I'd put Chris Paul over him next year. Hell even Parker is better than Billups... Parker might as well be the best PG in the entire league!

[whottt]

I agree about Marion...he's not a franchise type player at all and is better classified as a highly skilled role player.

[Nikos]

Garnett in 2004 was superior to Dirk in 2006. Matchups to me don't mean as much as talent and pure production in an 82 game season.

Garnett was the better overall player that year when he had Cassell. His defense was easily better, and his offense was about the same given he was a much better passer than Dirk. Granted Dirk was/is the superior scorer.

I think Garnett gets too much crap about his lack of playoff achievements -- in 2004 and 2005 he was putting up numbers like a prime Hakeem and Drob. True he never had a monster playoffs, but he never had good support -- and when he did Cassell got injured in that one year anyway.

Dirk has been superior this year to Garnett -- but in the last 2-3 seasons Garnett has easily been the better player. Surround Garnett with the same supporting cast as Dirk, and he would figure things out too after a year or two. Remember Dirk in the 2005 playoffs? Played horribly, and his teamattes weren't actually doing that bad themselves. Took Dirk another year to get things in gear. Garnett had one chance, and his best teamatte got injured when they needed him most.

Can't really compare their situations. But in the last 2-3 years Garnett has been the superior player.

[Texas_Ranger]

Dirk > Marion.

TD rocks.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Garnett in 2004 was superior to Dirk in 2006. Matchups to me don't mean as much as talent and pure production in an 82 game season. Theres a difference in statpadding on a one man team doing everything and disappearing the next season as compared to someone who has been consistent outhrough there career including chokin in the finals. Every KG loves to boast about his stats against the fakers 4hof team where he put up monster stats, even duncan put up monster stats in that series and couldnt beat the lakers that year, you dont see spursfans going around boasting and shit over a series, it was just that the spurs met the lakers a round earlier as compared to the wolves who met them in the WCF.


I think Garnett gets too much crap about his lack of playoff achievements -- in 2004 and 2005 he was putting up numbers like a prime Hakeem and Drob. True he never had a monster playoffs, but he never had good support -- and when he did Cassell got injured in that one year anyway. you cant say that, every team battles with injured players, even karl malone was injured in the finals against teh pistons you dont see fakers using that as an excuse. tim duncan played on 2 bumb ankles out through a series, you dont see him complaining, winners dont need excuses. And when ur the franchise player its ur duty to step up or get the other 11 active players that night to step up.


Dirk has been superior this year to Garnett -- but in the last 2-3 seasons Garnett has easily been the better player. Surround Garnett with the same supporting cast as Dirk, and he would figure things out too after a year or two. Remember Dirk in the 2005 playoffs? Played horribly, and his teamattes weren't actually doing that bad themselves. Took Dirk another year to get things in gear. Garnett had one chance, and his best teamatte got injured when they needed him most.
last 2-3 years yes KG>Dirk, but dirks team has done better as compared to KGs.

surround Garnett with another franchise players casts, always the same lame excuse i hear all the time, im sure you can put any of the top5 players in the league and switch them on contending teams and they go deep with the right cast. The only person you can blame here is KG and the wolves management, dont get fuckn jealous cose td, dirk, brand, shaq+kobe, suns team have good management and scouting. So what cassell got injured, ewing was out in the 99 finals, the knicks still showed up for a fight, malone was injured against the pistons and the fakers showed up with kobe tossing the game away, every damn thread that mentions about KG compared to another successful player always bring up with the same roster management excuse. there are other franchise guyz on worst performing teams, you dont see them complaining.


Can't really compare their situations. But in the last 2-3 years Garnett has been the superior player.
superior in stats yes
team superior no
has a big influence on a game? thats disputable, as both players bring something different intangibles to the game. KG can do everything on the court and that can be contained as dirk who can not be stopped as he plays out of position for his height which creates mismatches where he can basically score everywhere on the court, ask TMAC he give you an answer. He doesnt need to play defense, as its the mavs systems that works perfect but not identical to the spurs/pistons defense.

DIRK is good, but i dont like it when KG fans bring him down to the lvl of brand or the next tier, this guy has been consistent year after year, and his team has gone deep. He gets my respect though.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Another player that i feel underrated but doesnt get enough respect is Elton Brand.
His a bit different to Garnett

Garnett has player with many good players who have left and go, has a rich owner willing to spend.

Brand played on a team that was stacked with talent, but a cheap owner didnt wanna spend when they had miles, andre miller, qrich at there disposal and didnt resign any of them. Brand also puts up consistent stats on a losing team, you dont see him complaining, then last year he finally had help from a guy name cassell, and both took them deep into the playoffs.

KG=BRAND when they had no help
kg=brand when they had help, made them look like mvps, but in truth it was the other player that made them that good.

[Supergirl]

I'd put Dirk on the list instead of NASH. He overrates Nash's defense by calling it "a total lack of straight up defense" - by qualifying the defense he lacks it implies Nash has ANY defense. And any player with no defense does not belong on the best list. Dirk, at least, has learned to play a little bit of defense, occassionally, and Lebron is the same way.

I'd probably put AI on that list somewhere, personally, though I'm not sure who I'd dump.

[Extra Stout]

Just because Rosen put Duncan #1, it does not make him any less of a senile, Phil Jackson-gumballing asshat.

[TheTruth]

How can he not put Dirk in there? I'm sorry, Billups and Marion before Dirk?? what is he smoking??
I'm not trying to say that Dirk isn't better than both of those guys, but Rosen did state in the article that Defense was an important part of his rankings. Dirk still isn't that great a defensive player.

[Supergirl]

Marion is consistently one of the most underrated players in the game. He's the real reason the Suns have been competitors for the last few years. He's a much better all around player than Nash, and definitely deserves to be in the top players in the league list.
My list...
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Dwayne Wade
5. Lebron James
6. Allen Iverson
7. Shawn Marion
8. Chauncey Billups
9. Kevin Garnett
10. Yao Ming

Injuries is the only thing that keep Tracy McGrady off that list...

[ponky]

All this talk about Dirk and he's not even on the list. Sounds about right to me. Last time I checked the last TWO concurrent All-Stars we had playing on the same team were Dirk and Finley, Dirk and Nash, different years quite some time ago. Right now, Dirk's the only All-Star and he has a good but not great team, although JHO is coming along just fine. I could give a shit about lists, be at the top of a list, doesn't matter to me.

[wildbill2u]

Yao is really coming up in the rankings this year. I think Yao belongs in the top 8.

[ShoogarBear]

Even if KG was being a monster and averaging 40 a game, the Spurs can handle that (See: Stoudemire, Amare). What the Spurs couldn't handle was a big they had to guard with a small. How many times have you seen Bowen switched off on KG?



Uh, Dirk averaged 27.1 points and 13.3 rebounds while shooting 53% from the floor. He also got to the free-throw line 80 times where he shot over 90%. He averaged 1.73 points per shot, by far the best number on the Mavs. No one outside of Dirk shot over 45% for the series against the Spurs.

Dirk was the one hitting the clutch shots from the field and the line in games 3, 4 and 7. Dirk was awesome. I dislike the Mavs as much as anyone but I have to show respect where respect is due.

Dirk was a machine and was playing at a higher level than KG ever has.So,

letting Amare destroy the Spurs with 35 PPG on dunks but preventing others from getting theirs = sound playoff philosophy,

but letting Dirk get 35 PPG shooting jumpshots but preventing others from getting theirs = Basketball Apocalypse?

[ShoogarBear]

Just because Rosen put Duncan #1, it does not make him any less of a senile, Phil Jackson-gumballing asshat.On this we can all agree.

[Nikos]

So,

letting Amare destroy the Spurs with 35 PPG on dunks but preventing others from getting theirs = sound playoff philosophy,

but letting Dirk get 35 PPG shooting jumpshots but preventing others from getting theirs = Basketball Apocalypse?

As an aside I find it interesting that the Spurs had Duncan playing better than Dirk, Manu playing better than either JHO or Terry (with Parker about as good as both), and they still lost. Tells you how well Dallas matched up, and how deep they proved to be against the Spurs. They had some solid interior defense despite Duncan tearing them up at times. They got rebounds when they needed to. Dallas is just a tough matchup either way. They have more guys contributing on their team come playoff time (at least vs the Spurs). That proved to be the difference moreso than Dirk being a monster etc... (Although he did play excellent).

[milkyway21]

1. Tim Duncan: Because he does everything. Score, rebound, pass and defend. And because an outstanding big can directly and indirectly influence any given ball game much more so than a little or a medium.

2. Kobe Bryant: Because he also can do everything (when the spirit and/or Phil Jackson moves him). Kobe is certainly the best non-big in the game, a superb rebounder, an unparalleled clutch scorer, a terrific practitioner of both perimeter shot-making and irresistible penetrations, a potential shut-down defender (see the above qualification) and an adept (if not always an eager) passer. It's his versatility that separates him from the other non-centers.

3. Dwyane Wade: Because of his dynamic talents, his clutch performances and because he works hard to improve his weaknesses (defense and outside shooting).

4. LeBron James: Because of his rare combination of skills, speed and strength. LBJ is not rated any higher because his defense is still atrocious, and because his long-distance dialing remains iffy.

5. Steve Nash: Because of the (nearly) unblemished fashion in which he orchestrates the Suns' offense. Indeed, it's Nash's vision, unselfishness and ability to create his own shot opportunities that have unilaterally made a terrific team out of what is only a good team. His only flaws are a total lack of straight-up defense and a fragile physique.

6. Shawn Marion: Because he can score without having his number called, he can rebound like a big and he can play top-notch defense (albeit not as consistently as he used to).

7. Chauncey Billups: Because he's a master of all trades. In the clutch, Billups can come up with whatever play is needed to produce a win — from a score to a rebound to a stop to a perfect pass.



i think Kevin Garnett shld be on that short list even if his team sucks.

I'm not a fan of KG but i respect his ball handling and passion playing basketball.

LeBron is sometimes overhyped.

[Obstructed_View]

As an aside I find it interesting that the Spurs had Duncan playing better than Dirk, Manu playing better than either JHO or Terry (with Parker about as good as both), and they still lost. Tells you how important Rasho and Nazr were to the team's interior defense.
Fixed.

[TwoHandJam]

Uh, Dirk averaged 27.1 points and 13.3 rebounds while shooting 53% from the floor. He also got to the free-throw line 80 times where he shot over 90%. He averaged 1.73 points per shot, by far the best number on the Mavs. No one outside of Dirk shot over 45% for the series against the Spurs.

Dirk was the one hitting the clutch shots from the field and the line in games 3, 4 and 7. Dirk was awesome. I dislike the Mavs as much as anyone but I have to show respect where respect is due.

Dirk was a machine and was playing at a higher level than KG ever has.If Dirk was such an animal then how come he let his team fold like a cheap card table against a team like Miami? A team I think you're on record as saying we would have beaten pretty handily. Lets face it, Dirk is a great player but Pop's lack of a defensive long 3 coupled with the ill-fated small-ball experiment made him appear much better in that series than he really is.

Bowen is a great defender but you can't hope to stop a player with talent who is fully 5 inches taller than you for an entire series. And one can't minimize the rest of the Dallas team for their success. Because of Pop's ridiculous attempt to have guards play the role of bigs in the system, Dallas shot 50% or better against us as a team for 3 out of the 7 games in the series. That is clearly not Spurs defense. I can't remember a team shooting that well against us in a series since the debacle that was 2001 and the last minute change-up in the system had a lot to do with it.

No doubt Dirk is a great player but he hasn't reached the upper echelon yet in my book. You can't get your team to the finals and then fold that badly on the biggest stage there is in the NBA.

[milkyway21]

I'd like to bring back this thread to frontpage to acknowledge Duncan as the best since the start of the 2006-07 season:


Lenovo Breakdown: Nov. 28
By Dave McMenamin

What is the Lenovo Stat?
The Lenovo Stat shows the power of teamwork. It's a way of showing the best-engineered/best combination of players on the court. The Lenovo Stat is a plus/minus statistic that looks at the point differential when players are both in and out of the game, to see how the team performs with various combinations. The Lenovo Stat can look at a variety of combinations – including the best two-player, three-player and even five-player combinations for each game.
Here is a look at the top Lenovo performers through the fourth week of the 2006-07 NBA season:


Five-Player Combination
+ 76 T. McGrady, R. Alston, S. Battier, Yao, C. Hayes
+ 62 M. Camby, A. Miller, E. Najera, C. Anthony, J. Smith
+ 47 P. Pierce, W. Szczerbiak, K. Perkins, S. Telfair, R. Gomes


Last week's top three five-player combinations still reign at the top of the Lenovo leaderboard, but the order has been switched around. The Rockets, owners of a three-game winning streak, jumped from second place at +48, to first place at +76. Denver moved from third to second as a five-game unbeaten stretch helped their positive production go from +39 to +62. Boston stayed steady as it dipped only slightly from +49 to +47 to occupy the third spot. Houston, Denver and Boston have a significant lead over their competition as the next closest group is the Bucks' Ruben Patterson, Michael Redd, Maurice Williams, Andrew Bogut and Charlie Villanueva at +35.


Four-Player Combination
+ 82 T. McGrady, R. Alston, S. Battier, C. Hayes
+ 77 T. McGrady, R. Alston, Y. Ming, C. Hayes
+ 77 T. McGrady, S. Battier, Y. Ming, C. Hayes
+ 73 R. Alston, S. Battier, Y. Ming, C. Hayes


The Rockets claim the top five four-player combinations after having the group of Tracy McGrady, Rafer Alston, Shane Battier and Chuck Hayes come in tied for second last week at +54. Out of the Rockets' top four four-player sets, amazingly the one constant player is Chuck Hayes and not T-Mac or Yao. Denver is the first team outside of Clutch City to pop up as Marcus Camby, Eduardo Najera, Carmelo Anthony and Joe Smith check in at sixth place with +66.


Three-Player Combination
+ 96 T. McGrady, R. Alston, C. Hayes
+ 84 R. Alston, Y. Ming, C. Hayes
+ 83 T. McGrady, S. Battier, C. Hayes


The 9-4 Rockets have many believing they will nab a playoff spot in the ultra-competitive Western Conference and Houston has the three-man chemistry to help with that quest. McGrady, Alston and Hayes are the Rockets' top trio, nearing triple digits with a +96 rating. Houston has the top six groups overall. Phoenix has numbers seven and eight with the combinations of Steve Nash, Shawn Marion and Raja Bell as well as Nash, Marion and Leandro Barbosa holding at +72.


Two-Player Combination
+ 103 A. Biedrins:D, M. Ellis
+ 101 R. Alston, C. Hayes
+ 97 T. McGrady, C. Hayes


Who are the top duo, you ask? Andris Biedrins, third-year center out of Latvia, is averaging a double-double while Monta Ellis, second-year guard out of Lanier High School in Mississippi, is scoring 17.7 points per game. Golden State is 9-6 and third in the league in scoring, averaging 106.7 points per game, thanks in part to the young coupling of Biedrins and Ellis. Two more Rockets pairs round out the top three.


One Player
+ 105 T. Duncan
+ 102 C. Hayes
+ 100 S. Nash


For the fourth week in a row, there is a new No. 1 Lenovo individual. Tim Duncan boosted his number from +82 to +105 as the Spurs continue to roll at 11-4 overall. Hayes, who was No. 1 after Week 2, is in second and back-to-back MVP Steve Nash is in third. Last week's top player, Matt Harpring, is in sixth at +83.


Duncan :tu and;

wow: the Rockets made it in all of the categories?

[timvp]

Anyone want to revive the Dirk vs. KG debate? :lol

In the last two games, we saw perfect examples of their respective games. Dirk has evolved into a machine that can't be stopped. KG is his team's third or fourth option when it's money time.

KG is a great player in the first three quarters ... but in the fourth he goes into Brent Barry mode. How do you guard Dirk? Spurs put a big on him almost all night and he destroyed them.

[Billy Cobham]

You guard Dirk with Rasheed Wallace.