Oberto and Barry are saving our asses . . . for now

[ShoogarBear]

The Spurs and their fans are feeling pretty good about that 11-3 record.

Maybe better than they should be.

Fabricio Oberto is shooting 71%. Even more impressively, Brent Barry is shooting 53%, 55% on threes. They can't be expected to keep this up (absolutely not for Oberto, anyway).

They are currently averaging 17 PPG combined and are the #4 and #5 scorers for the Spurs. If they were shooting a more realistic 50% (Oberto) and 45% (Barry), everyone would still say they were playing great, but the Spurs would probably have a record somewhere around 8-6 (and a losing record at home) and the mood would be decidedly unhappier.

There are obviously places for improvement once the Oberto/Barry hot spell winds down. Ginobili, Finley, Horry, and Udrich can't shoot any worse than they have been so far. And even though Tim Duncan's stats look like his MVP years, on the floor his form is clearly not all the way back to pre-plantar fascitis levels, so you have to figure isn't playing at his peak either.

But you also have to figure Tony Parker is not shooting 55% for a season again.

The Spurs are still first and foremost about the defense. The D has been horrible (for the Spurs) at times, especially early in games, but there is a clear trend towards clamping down in the fourth quarter and the overall progress actually seems to be farther along than usual for this time of you.

So enjoy Oberto and Barry while you can. Just don't get used to it, and hope that last night were the signs of everyone else finally starting to get into the swing.

[Martin R]

I see you DONT know Oberto.......he's been exactly the same for years : SUPER EFFECTIVE.

[SpursIndonesia]

If Oberto stays disrespected & disregarded by opponents D, i think his productivity could stay at the current, on going level.

OTOH, Barry just has been in a good spell, i just hope it would last long enough until Finley finds one of his own.

[dg7md]

Oberto is playing all-star level now, he's been astounding. I think he will be one of the top centers for a few years, especially in the dying NBA centers era.

Who's a center that's been playing better than Oberto? I can't really think of any outside of Yao.

[Bruno]

Who's a center that's been playing better than Oberto? I can't really think of any outside of Yao.

Okafor, Howard, Camby, Biedrins, Okur, Pachulia, Krstic, Bogut...

[whottt]

I see you guys don't know Barry...

Barry is the 13th best PPFGA player in NBA history...

In the last 2 years in which Spurs fans have said he's sucked Barry has never finished lower than second on the team in 2pt PCT or adjusted FG% and he's hasn't been lower than #4 in PPS. He actully lead the NBA in adjusted FG% a few years ago.

Prior to his Spurs career he was also the 13th best 3 shooter in NBA history and is a previous 3 pt champion.

And he's had multiple seasons of shooting over 50% from the field.

He won't shoot 58% for the season from 3(which would be an NBA record)...but it'll be really surprising if he doesn't win the 3pt crown this season.

Then again...he takes more bad shots now than he used too...so it won't surprise me if he doesn't either.

But Barry's %'s and shooting rates are always going to be elite in one area or another when you examine them closely...he just takes such excellent shots it always shows up somewhere.

He would have lead the team in 2pt PCT again last season if Parker hadn't had one of the best seasons ever by a PG in that area. And he still lead in Adjusted FG% and PPFGA.


The only reason he didn't lead in PPS his first year here was Manu tearing up the NBA in that category(Manu is really excellent in this area) and playing at AS level.

More importantly I hope he returns to leading the team in assist to to ratio as he did his first year here.

I wouldn't hold my breath on him shooting 95% from FT for the season though...he's a good FT shooter, but he's no Rick Barry.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Oberto is playing all-star level now, he's been astounding. I think he will be one of the top centers for a few years, especially in the dying NBA centers era.

Who's a center that's been playing better than Oberto? I can't really think of any outside of Yao.hopefully you are being sarcastic http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I see you DONT know Oberto.......he's been exactly the same for years : SUPER EFFECTIVE.not in the NBA he hasn't. I love this, Oberto starts playing well a couple of games and all of a sudden he's played like this for YEARS! He's this good, bla, bla, bla. Last year he sucked monumentaly. Yeah he was still getting adjusted to the NBA, that's fine, and yeah, the dude could prove to be this good throughout the season (unlikely if you ask me) but don't come here proclaiming it like people shouldn't be surprised he's playing like he is right now. Its a surprise, a good one, but still a major surprise.

[SKINNYPIMP210]

[b]even If Oberto Sucks, He Still Plays Like A Madman! It's That Argentina Mentality. Ginobili Had It When He Went On A Tear That Season And He Still Does But, Injurie's Are A Mother Fucker. But Yeah, Oberto Goes Out There And Give's 164% Every Night So, You Can't Be Mad With That!

[Martin R]

not in the NBA he hasn't. I love this, Oberto starts playing well a couple of games and all of a sudden he's played like this for YEARS! He's this good, bla, bla, bla. Last year he sucked monumentaly. Yeah he was still getting adjusted to the NBA, that's fine, and yeah, the dude could prove to be this good throughout the season (unlikely if you ask me) but don't come here proclaiming it like people shouldn't be surprised he's playing like he is right now. Its a surprise, a good one, but still a major surprise.

hopefully you are 13.

Oberto has been playing this good/way in the international competition for about 10 years now.

Now, the next of your "points" : "Last year he sucked monumentaly"
Question : how many minutes he played in his FIRST NBA year ?
Answer : 8.3 mpg
Question : was he the starting center or the first substitute?
Answer : No, he wasn't. He was the 2nd substitute.


I am not accepting light comments like yours, based on NOTHING. Oberto hadn't had the chance to prove his game in the NBA until this year.
Even Popovich said he didn't know how good he was until now.

Tip for Pop & ManuMania : a player needs MINUTES to show how good he can be!!!

Maybe he will NOT maintain a 71% FG but he defenetly won't be below last year's 47%.

[TDMVPDPOY]

problems to this team:
finley needs alot of touches to be effective, we cannot afford that as we have no reb and is always outrebounded by teams.
horry only shows up once a month
elson is still inconsistent same with beno.
the other guys on the bench no comment atm, but bonner deserves more minutes imo even if his a blackhole on defense.
pops lame roster rotations and the lineup of vaugn,beno, barry, horry, finley wtf was that? he has to stop experimenting these lineups where we dont have one of the main 3 players in it.

everything mention above im fine besides the rebounding :(

[Supergirl]

What's clear is that Oberto fits in better with the Spurs system than Rasho or Nazr did, and that TD likes playing with him better.

With Rasho, TD liked to shoot from the same places, whereas Oberto plays like a traditional, if undersized, C and complements TD's game better. This allows the Spurs to find him more easily when they double up on Tim or Tony. I think he'll keep playing pretty well, because it's his nature to be consistent and hardworking.

[TDMVPDPOY]

What's clear is that Oberto fits in better with the Spurs system than Rasho or Nazr did, and that TD likes playing with him better.

With Rasho, TD liked to shoot from the same places, whereas Oberto plays like a traditional, if undersized, C and complements TD's game better. This allows the Spurs to find him more easily when they double up on Tim or Tony. I think he'll keep playing pretty well, because it's his nature to be consistent and hardworking.

i think rasho is superior to orbs imo.

problem with rasho is that his a softy, and when you look at his tic tak fouls and calls, his not being respected by officials. Thats because his a pussy not argueing back at teh refs. and the only downside to his offense is shootin fts with one hand, stupid turn around mini hooks. But when TD was out i remember him puttin up 15ppg through a stretch of 5-8games in his first season i think with the spurs, we all know what his capable of, it was just that his decision making and slow motion response :(:( , on defense our team defense was top notch, this season we are doin poorly on blocks as a team, and reb, but we are still up there team opp ppg.....

[Ariel]

hopefully you are 13.

Oberto has been playing this good/way in the international competition for about 10 years now.

Now, the next of your "points" : "Last year he sucked monumentaly"
Question : how many minutes he played in his FIRST NBA year ?
Answer : 8.3 mpg
Question : was he the starting center or the first substitute?
Answer : No, he wasn't. He was the 2nd substitute.


I am not accepting light comments like yours, based on NOTHING. Oberto hadn't had the chance to prove his game in the NBA until this year.
Even Popovich said he didn't know how good he was until now.

Tip for Pop & ManuMania : a player needs MINUTES to show how good he can be!!!
This is the whole "what comes first, the egg or the chicken?" story. He doesn't show what he do can unless he gets to play, and he doesn't get to play unless he shows what he can do. In truth, it's a combination of both. You show what you have in practice, and you get some playing time. Some playing time gives you confidence and helps you adjust. As you grow confident and you adjust to the new game, you earn more playing time... and so on and so forth. Even if you play as little as Oberto did last season, you can make an assessment of his play. There were several games where he got a lot of playing time, and he didn't look anywhere near this comfortable.

It's not just the points, it's the whole package. His positioning all the time is very good, he doesn't miss defensive rotations and he is on the right place on offense as well; his passing game has improved leaps and bounds, likely because of confidence and better understanding his teammates and viceversa, what used to be turnovers are now awesome assists; his overall effectiveness has improved. This may have been the case in the FIBA game, but not in the NBA. Now, I don't think his skills are better than they were before, nor do I consider him a better overall player than he was... but even if because of the natural adaptation process, he has definitely improved as an NBA player and that is out there for everyone to see.

[Solid D]

I like Oberto but I think Bruno gave you some players to think about there, Martin R.

[Phenomanul]

It's the new ball.... it is more like the FIBA version..... :drunk

[Supergirl]

i think rasho is superior to orbs imo.

problem with rasho is that his a softy, and when you look at his tic tak fouls and calls, his not being respected by officials. Thats because his a pussy not argueing back at teh refs. and the only downside to his offense is shootin fts with one hand, stupid turn around mini hooks. But when TD was out i remember him puttin up 15ppg through a stretch of 5-8games in his first season i think with the spurs, we all know what his capable of, it was just that his decision making and slow motion response :(:( , on defense our team defense was top notch, this season we are doin poorly on blocks as a team, and reb, but we are still up there team opp ppg.....

I'm not sure Oberto gets less fouls called. That's more a matter of the position they play - the NBA is having refs call games more tightly, and letting less physical D fly, in an effort to make the game more high scoring overall. That change explains why centers and PFs are more likely to get in trouble, why a player like Barry can excel.

Rasho is superior defensively, but his services were less and less needed because of the overall decline in true centers in the NBA. And offensively, he never clicked, because he liked to shoot from the same places as TD, so they could never get him involved.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I expect Oberto's numbers will level off a little as teams actually bother to defend him. So far it seems that teams have challenged Oberto to the be the guy to beat them and he's made them pay for it. Eventually word will get out and teams will actually prepare for him.

As for Barry, he'll certainly slump at some point, but I think what we are seeing is a good shooter who has finally gotten a consistent role on this team. Barry's minutes have flucuated a lot in his time here and his confidence has as well. Pop has a quirky habit of playing mad scientist with the rotations early on and I hope that Barry's rhythm doesn't become a casualty of that.

[Texas_Ranger]

I just hope that Oberto will play like last two games, and on the end of the season have about 60% shot. Barry is great all season long. If just Finley and Horry would start playing better. They both are pretty bad so far. Then Manu should start playing like in 2005 when he was second best spur player. Spurs have a lot of bonuses still to show, so I'm hoping to see much better Spurs team in next games.

[itzsoweezee]

lol @ the continued rasho dickriding on this site. he's garbage, okay. get that through your thick skulls. there's a reason he didn't play in the finals, and it's the same reason he was shipped off to toronto, and why he's the 12th man on the worthless raptors. that reason is, he sucks. his supposed amazing defensive abilities is a myth, created by some fools on this message board. his attrocious offensive abilities somehow distort the fact that he can play average defense into this perception that he was some kind of defensive juggernaut.

[ehz33satx]

Oberto is playing all-star level now, he's been astounding. I think he will be one of the top centers for a few years, especially in the dying NBA centers era.

Who's a center that's been playing better than Oberto? I can't really think of any outside of Yao.


I dont know about all star level. He has been playing good though. I am sure playing next to Duncan has helped him out alot, but in Europe he was an exceptional player there also. He had a very high field goal percentage. He comes from a gold medal squad in Argentina. He has a great basketball IQ. Why would that not translate into good numbers here in the NBA. I look forward to seeing Oberto being a great asset to the Spurs and seeing him doing great things as the season goes on. People deride him and say he is doing good now but later on in the season not to look for him to do so good, and I say why not?

[wildbill2u]

If you bother to look at Oberto on offense you will see that he has very good sense about the movement off the ball and manages to be in a good position INSIDE of his defensive player a lot.

So he's able to grab that offensive rebound and put it back in or take the pass from Tim out of the double team and lay it up. It's all about positioning. He's VERY VERY good at this. Plus he's a good unselfish passer.

He's Not the type of dominating physical center or jumping jack we all think an NBA center should be. But they guy is damned effective at what he does.

He doesn't have the footspeed or jumping ability to be a great defender, but he's learning the system and is doing OK. If he stays out of foul trouble in games, he's gonna stay our starting center.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

hopefully you are 13.

Oberto has been playing this good/way in the international competition for about 10 years now.

Now, the next of your "points" : "Last year he sucked monumentaly"
Question : how many minutes he played in his FIRST NBA year ?
Answer : 8.3 mpg
Question : was he the starting center or the first substitute?
Answer : No, he wasn't. He was the 2nd substitute.


I am not accepting light comments like yours, based on NOTHING. Oberto hadn't had the chance to prove his game in the NBA until this year.
Even Popovich said he didn't know how good he was until now.

Tip for Pop & ManuMania : a player needs MINUTES to show how good he can be!!!

Maybe he will NOT maintain a 71% FG but he defenetly won't be below last year's 47%.
No I'm not 13, dumbass. Its like Ariel said, a player will get minutes when he shows he will do something with them. Last year he did nothing of the sort. i understand he was adjusting to the NBA, and his minutes were limited. Its understandable, but again, don't come in here like this Oberto is the Oberto we've been seeing for years now, because its bullshit.

Anytime a player makes the transition from FIBA to NBA there is a chance they won't pan out. Last year it looked like Oberto was not going to make it. This year is a whole different ballgame, I know. I just think its bullshit that you seem to make stupid little comments everytime someone acts surprised about how Oberto is playing, as if they don't know shit about Oberto.

Where are you from Martin?? 'cause I have a growing suspicion... I just want to verify it.

[bdictjames]

Oberto has that knack of getting open shots, and Duncan and Parker have knacks of finding him. His shots are pretty easy if you look at it.

But Barry, he can knock the three without even getting open.

[Kori Ellis]

Yeah yeah, Shoog.

I get the point that Fab and Brent aren't going to shoot those high percentages all season. But Fin, Manu, Beno etc aren't going to shoot those low percentages all season either. So when the Spurs offense balances out and the defense becomes more consistent, then they won't need Oberto and Barry to save their asses.

Things are fine in Spursland.

[ShoogarBear]

It's the new ball.... it is more like the FIBA version..... :drunkThis post makes more sense than a lot of the other followups in here. :lol

[ShoogarBear]

Yeah yeah, Shoog.

I get the point that Fab and Brent aren't going to shoot those high percentages all season. But Fin, Manu, Beno etc aren't going to shoot those low percentages all season either. So when the Spurs offense balances out and the defense becomes more consistent, then they won't need Oberto and Barry to save their asses.

Things are fine in Spursland.Didn't you hear? Oberto is going to be shooting 70% all year!

And the only time Brent Barry misses a shot is on plays where Pop doesn't use him correctly!

I don't think FinManBenHor are going to shoot a combined 35% (or whatever) all year. But I wouldn't be totally shocked if, for different reasons, they end up a combined 40-42% for the year. You could construct perfectly realistic scenarious whereby each one ends up with close to his worst shooting year. Finley and Horry may end up being this years' NVE's. Manu may never feel good. Beno may continue to Benocize himself.

Let's just say it's far more likely that Barry and Oberto come back down to earth than it is that all four of those guys get their act together.

[Ariel]

I don't think FinManBenHor are going to shoot a combined 35% (or whatever) all year. But I wouldn't be totally shocked if, for different reasons, they end up a combined 40-42% for the year. You could construct perfectly realistic scenarious whereby each one ends up with close to his worst shooting year. Finley and Horry may end up being this years' NVE's. Manu may never feel good. Beno may continue to Benocize himself.

Let's just say it's far more likely that Barry and Oberto come back down to earth than it is that all four of those guys get their act together.
Yes, but you're blowing it out of proportion. Manu, Finley, Horry and Beno combined are taking 2.5 times as many shots as Brent and Fabricio do, so to offset a 20% decline in the accuracy of the latter group, the former would have to increase their effectiveness by 8%, which sounds more than reasonable considering their combined 36% shooting. And that's not even considering that the difference in attempts would undoubtedly go up should the first group improve and the second decline, because when you have a smart team and coach, effectiveness is directly related to protagonism.

To sum it up, though possible, it's highly unlikely such scenario presents itself. I think the point is valid, but you're overreaching.

[ShoogarBear]

Thanks for actually crunching the numbers, 'cause I was too lazy to do it.

What I'm proposing is that a 20% decline may possibly be matched by only a 4-5% increase, which would result in an overall net loss. Not saying that's what will happen, but it wouldn't be unbelievable if that's how it ended up. And sure those points could be made up by increased productivity from Tim or Tony.

[Martin R]

No I'm not 13, dumbass. Its like Ariel said, a player will get minutes when he shows he will do something with them. Last year he did nothing of the sort. i understand he was adjusting to the NBA, and his minutes were limited. Its understandable, but again, don't come in here like this Oberto is the Oberto we've been seeing for years now, because its bullshit.

Anytime a player makes the transition from FIBA to NBA there is a chance they won't pan out. Last year it looked like Oberto was not going to make it. This year is a whole different ballgame, I know. I just think its bullshit that you seem to make stupid little comments everytime someone acts surprised about how Oberto is playing, as if they don't know shit about Oberto.

Where are you from Martin?? 'cause I have a growing suspicion... I just want to verify it.


first, I am not a dumbass.

Second, I have over 20 years of ACTIVE basketball life. I am actually coaching a team.

Third, you CAN'T say a player "sucked monumentaly" when he didn't get enough minutes to play, not even throwing in here that it was his FIRST NBA year.
By the way, if you look at his numbers, he didn't suck MONUMENTALLY considering he was 47% from the field....

I'm from Argentina and I DID watch MANY Oberto's games LIVE. He is a hell of a player in the painted zone when he has enough basketball IQ surrounding him.

M

[Marhq]

IIRC Fabricio is averaging something like 63-65% FG for his whole career. I guess that's what MartinR was reffering to when he said that his current numbers were more Oberto-like.

Saludos.

[T Park]

On top of that, Oberto isn't just getting open layups.

Hes making nice moves in the paint, and making jumpshots.

The guy has talent, its not like Jack Haley is out there for goshsakes.

[Ariel]

IIRC Fabricio is averaging something like 63-65% FG for his whole career. I guess that's what MartinR was reffering to when he said that his current numbers were more Oberto-like.

Saludos.
Indeed. Over the course of his ACB career he averaged 63% on 2 pointers (http://www.acb.com/stsacumjug.php?cod_jugador=A4H). However, I'm guessing the problem here isn't that people didn't know that, but rather that most did and still find it worthy of mention that he has been taking that further at the NBA level. If people were to take a look around, they might find out that there are lots other posters from Argentina (as evidenced by the flags on the profile or the user names...) or other countries related to FIBA basketball who have a pretty damn good idea of who Fabricio is, so assuming lack of knowledge as the only possible explanation for not sharing one's views is somewhat presumptuous.