Finley's Slump

[Kori Ellis]

Michael Finley has missed 18 of last 22 shots.

I think it's time for Finley to work out of his slump in practice, instead of on court as a starter.

[Kori Ellis]

Did everyone see Manu stayed late after practice in a private workout with Pop to show him that he's ready to go?

Hopefully he did well and we see him back on the court tomorrow night.

[joeyjfive]

I think Finley needs to go to basket a little more and not force it so much.

[boutons_]

yep, I think the only way to get out of shooting slump is take 100s of shots in practice, before games, every chance possible.

I remember Steve Kerr said he would shoot 100s of shots, and when he was plonked into 03 WCF Game6, his shot was ready.

There's nothing wrong with the Finley's form that Chip should dick with.
He already has one of the most vertical, smoothest, most effortless releases.

Just shoot 100s of shots for hours (great to have a ball boy or two to fetch balls. I volunteer :) )

[TMTTRIO]

I saw that on the news and he looked like he was doing fine. I'd like to see Manu back on court bringing his usual energy that he brings and all the intangibles that we've been missing but I don't think he's going to play unless this changes :(.


http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA120406.08D.BKNspurs.warriors.preview.2cce8c0.h tml
Spurs: Manu Ginobili (lower back contusion) is doubtful.

[SenorSpur]

I think Finley needs to go to basket a little more and not force it so much.

Indeed. He should work more on getting closer, easier, simplier shots. Once he gets his stroke and his confidence back, then he could go back to hoisting up those threes.

[Big Shot Rob]

I hate to admit it, but when I see begin to shoot the ball, I expect him to hit the rim. He has just been shooting so poorly this year that I am starting to think that he needs to just sit down and we try Bonner for a while.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

I think Finley needs to go to basket a little more and not force it so much.
This should help a little. But Finley is more of a shooter than a play maker. I agree with Kori and boutons, hes probably taking lots of shots in practice, and this should help him. But in game situations, a drive to the basket in hopes of an and 1 can get him to the stripe, and he can get a shooting rhythm from the line.

[T Park]

Good old NBA ball.....

[VaSpursFan]

fin is shooting with no confidence now and he's thinking too much. b-ball is all instinct, acting and reacting. when you start thinking too much your game will be affected. the best thing for fin right now would be to attack the basket, get a few easy layups and dunks to drop, and then fall back to the jumper. i must say it is weird to see a veteran playing like a rookie.

[Tom_Foolery]

Michael Finley has missed 18 of last 22 shots.

I think it's time for Finley to work out of his slump in practice, instead of on court as a starter.

he's always been inconsistent as a spur, more bad than good IMO. the slump doesn't surprise me as he's had these slumps as a spur before. it's just highlighted because he's starting.

i'm a little afraid at our shooting guard situation. manu's injury-prone and not so young anymore, barry's playing great but he's old and how much can he hold up, and we have finley who's pretty old and in a slump.

seems like we overlooked that position. i feel we really are helpless in that situation since we can't trade and get a guard to know the system to really contribute as much as finley can, but at the same time, finley's just not producing and hasn't really lived up to even half the expectation that most of us thought he would make. not saying that finley should be "6th man of the year" or anything, but i certainly think Finley is much better than 10th in efficiency on the Spurs(even behind beno and horry).

not sure what to do with finley, but at the rate he's playing, he won't even be worth very much as trade bait.

[MannyIsGod]

Michael Finley has missed 18 of last 22 shots.

I think it's time for Finley to work out of his slump in practice, instead of on court as a starter.Well, I'd be willing to bet money that in practice Finley can't miss a jumper just like Duncan can't miss a free throw. An NBA player is never going to break out of a slump in practice.

That being said, I dont mind taking Finley out of the rotation. Williams gave a spark and Barry has played much better all year, so when Manu gets back I woudln't mind some competition between Finley and Williams. I'm not worried about Finley though. He's not mentaly weak like some of our other shooters (cough) Barry - Beno (cough). He'll continue to put it up and eventually that shot will fall.

[MannyIsGod]

he's always been inconsistent as a spur, more bad than good IMO. the slump doesn't surprise me as he's had these slumps as a spur before. it's just highlighted because he's starting.

i'm a little afraid at our shooting guard situation. manu's injury-prone and not so young anymore, barry's playing great but he's old and how much can he hold up, and we have finley who's pretty old and in a slump.

seems like we overlooked that position. i feel we really are helpless in that situation since we can't trade and get a guard to know the system to really contribute as much as finley can, but at the same time, finley's just not producing and hasn't really lived up to even half the expectation that most of us thought he would make. not saying that finley should be "6th man of the year" or anything, but i certainly think Finley is much better than 10th in efficiency on the Spurs(even behind beno and horry).

not sure what to do with finley, but at the rate he's playing, he won't even be worth very much as trade bait.Finley was off to start last year, but coming to a new team that was to be expected. Post All Star break he was awesome last year, and in the playoffs he took it to an even higher level. Thoughts of trading him are just flat out silly.

-He's got nothing for a contract which makes trades rough.

-He's not a piece you trade to a losing team for prospects, he's a piece you trade to someone trying to put themselves over the top. You're not going to get youth for him

-You dont' trade your shooters because they are in a slump.

I'm not sure what you wanted or expected from Finley, but I thought what he gave last year int he playoffs should have exceeded what most people expected from him. He played incredibly. If you're expecting play on that level from anyone who isn't a top 3 option on this team, you're going to be dissapointed time and time again.

[Texas_Ranger]

That is just great. :madrun

[TDMVPDPOY]

michael finley doesnt make love to pressure......

[Walton Buys Off Me]

I for one still have faith that Finley can and will turn it around but I agree that he shouldn't be starting and torpedoing our squad in the process of finding his shot.

[2centsworth]

Finley's shooting woes is a sign that the guy came in out of shape. Dude has no legs and maybe no desire to get back into tip top shape. Sitting on the bench will just make it worse so if the spurs need Fin they should invest gametime into getting him into shape.

If i was the coach I would tear into him or ship him off.

[easjer]

Michael Finley has missed 18 of last 22 shots.

I think it's time for Finley to work out of his slump in practice, instead of on court as a starter.


Agreed. Wholeheartedly.

[wildbill2u]

Finley is having problems with the new ball. Maybe it's only psychological, but it's there.

Granted that Barry also had an off night the other night, I'd still be in favor of giving him Finley's minutes.

And I'm surprised not very many folks have responded to the Eric Williams thread since there was so much questioning of his role after the trade. I thought the guy 's stats were damn good for his first real minutes of the season. But, I can't see the games so will have to rely on those who eyeballed his play.

[bdictjames]

I think he must just practice the basics: shoot when open, pass when not. He's been taking rather inefficient shots that have low percentages already, he's better when he's open.

[Fabbs]

-He's got nothing for a contract which makes trades rough.

-He's not a piece you trade to a losing team for prospects, he's a piece you trade to someone trying to put themselves over the top. You're not going to get youth for him

-You dont' trade your shooters because they are in a slump.

I'm not sure what you wanted or expected from Finley, but I thought what he gave last year int he playoffs should have exceeded what most people expected from him. He played incredibly. If you're expecting play on that level from anyone who isn't a top 3 option on this team, you're going to be dissapointed time and time again.

Manny i would say he was good in last years playoffs vs Dallas. He also hit the big late 3 pter which would have helped us be Champs if not for the ManuFart.
But i would hardly say he was incredible. Kings he was same old SpursFin.

His low price tag is what makes him more tradeable. Combined with another salary. I just dont think there are any takers. But to at least shop him? Absolutely, why not. Worked for Barry. :spin This bit about Finley being some Sacred Cow is :elephant (not saying you were implying this Manny)

At to this whether or not he should be benched until he does get his shot back, I can only marvel at what a 2nd cup of coffee might do for our dear posters. Of course the players playing best should get time, and LordPop has long since made a mockery of this principle with Findawg and his TParklike sniffer supporters Chumping at the bit to leave him in while burning other Spurs benchies of playingtime.

A black Steve Kerr? If only Finley could know and play his role as Kerr did his.
Kerr was a team player all the way and his 2003 Playoff contribution should be used in teaching all youngun Spurs our folklore. Also for deprogramming old Spurs -when they are ready-.

[phxspurfan]

does this remind anyone else of how brent barry played when he first joined (and even a little bit last year)? i think finley will be fine and shoot himself out of this slump. hes too good to stay down. i'm glad he's struggling early and not late...

[phxspurfan]

But to at least shop him? Absolutely, why not. Worked for Barry. :spin

are you kidding? that hurt Barry so bad he whined to the press. That was the worst move the Spurs made all year. If they really wanted to trade Barry, they should have goten the deal done. Now that JR Smith is succeeding in Denver, it makes people second guess that non-trade even more. No matter how good Barry does, he still knows he was almost abadoned by his team.

[nkdlunch]

Let's face it, Finley will NEVER AGAIN consistently play at the level he played in Dallas. Even last year he didn't play at that level for a full game.

Let's just hope he can play at last year's level in the playoffs and occasionally get hot. But that's it. Let's not expect anything more from him.

It's still early so let's hope his shot comes back, but come february, march, if he's still sucking lets take him out of the rotation... Why? Remeber NVE, just a few shit minutes from NVE cost us the series vs. Dallas last year.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny i would say he was good in last years playoffs vs Dallas. He also hit the big late 3 pter which would have helped us be Champs if not for the ManuFart.
But i would hardly say he was incredible. Kings he was same old SpursFin.

His low price tag is what makes him more tradeable. Combined with another salary. I just dont think there are any takers. But to at least shop him? Absolutely, why not. Worked for Barry. :spin This bit about Finley being some Sacred Cow is :elephant (not saying you were implying this Manny)

At to this whether or not he should be benched until he does get his shot back, I can only marvel at what a 2nd cup of coffee might do for our dear posters. Of course the players playing best should get time, and LordPop has long since made a mockery of this principle with Findawg and his TParklike sniffer supporters Chumping at the bit to leave him in while burning other Spurs benchies of playingtime.

A black Steve Kerr? If only Finley could know and play his role as Kerr did his.
Kerr was a team player all the way and his 2003 Playoff contribution should be used in teaching all youngun Spurs our folklore. Also for deprogramming old Spurs -when they are ready-.He had the same stats against the Kings that he did against the Mavs. Finely is playing right now because there are really no other options. Do you want to play Jacque Vaughn over him? Before the last game, no one would have advocated playing Williams in front of him.

As for Finley knowing his role, I promise you he's not doing anything other than what Pop asks him to do otherwise he'd be benched.

[MannyIsGod]

Those of you that are saying the Spurs should consider trading him obviously are having trouble understanding how the salary situations work in the NBA with trades when a team is over the cap. Trading Finley would be a lateral move AT BEST and would far more likely just be a step backwards. It doesn't make any sense to trade a minimal contract when you're over the cap and when you won't get anything of value in return.

[Fabbs]

He had the same stats against the Kings that he did against the Mavs. Finely is playing right now because there are really no other options. Do you want to play Jacque Vaughn over him? Before the last game, no one would have advocated playing Williams in front of him.

As for Finley knowing his role, I promise you he's not doing anything other than what Pop asks him to do otherwise he'd be benched.

Well he was little better vs Dallas but yes about the same. He did fine other then his wussified D vs Dirk, but then that was LordPop making that assignment. I want to see Barry and Elson getting minutes ahead of him.
TD Elson Parker GNob Bruce Barry Fabs. The rest go with the hot hand.


Those of you that are saying the Spurs should consider trading him obviously are having trouble understanding how the salary situations work in the NBA with trades when a team is over the cap.

Manny we are saying, at least I am saying put the Finley trade out there. You have heard of Isiah Thomas haven't you? Nothing comes back, oh my how did that work out with Barry.


As for Finley knowing his role, I promise you he's not doing anything other than what Pop asks him to do otherwise he'd be benched
Or maybe we could pachage Finley and Pop to L.A. for Bynum and Phil Jackson.

[JamStone]

VaSpursFan made the most poignant point to me. Finley doesn't have confidence. The very best shooters with no confidence will fail more times than not, especially in games with the pressure on.

Finley has always been a set shot jump shooter. And, he used to have the most rigorous and meticulous off-season conditioning and jump-shooting programs. I have a few friends that used to train in Chicago at the same gym. They said he worked on his jumper everyday in the summer, six days a week, like crazy.

In the past few years, especially with some of the injuries he's had, he doesn't go through the same rigorous program, not only in the off-season, but during the season as well.

But, again, it goes back to confidence. His form, his technique in his jumpshot is the same. His body is programmed with muscle memory how to shoot properly. It goes back to his confidence.

[MannyIsGod]

Well he was little better vs Dallas but yes about the same. He did fine other then his wussified D vs Dirk, but then that was LordPop making that assignment. I want to see Barry and Elson getting minutes ahead of him.
TD Elson Parker GNob Bruce Barry Fabs. The rest go with the hot hand.



Manny we are saying, at least I am saying put the Finley trade out there. You have heard of Isiah Thomas haven't you? Nothing comes back, oh my how did that work out with Barry.
Elson getting more minutes than him is irrelevent. They dont' play the same position. I suppose you could play 4 centers out there but that might be a tad bit stupid.

You still fail to understand that due to Finley's contract he we cannot get anything back of value other than a minimum contract!!!! I don't know how to put it more plainly than that to you. You can package Finley with a larger contract, but WHY? It makes no sense whatsoever.

As far as putting it out there, thats ridiculous. Barry's situation wasn't a threat, it was a trade that was DONE but was denied by the NBA office. Pop didn't go up to Barry and tell him I'm shopping you around, he told him pack your bags you're a Hornet. I am quite certain that Finley knows he is tradeable.

[Fabbs]

Elson getting more minutes than him is irrelevent. They dont' play the same position. I suppose you could play 4 centers out there but that might be a tad bit stupid.

You still fail to understand that due to Finley's contract he we cannot get anything back of value other than a minimum contract!!!! I don't know how to put it more plainly than that to you. You can package Finley with a larger contract, but WHY? It makes no sense whatsoever.

As far as putting it out there, thats ridiculous. Barry's situation wasn't a threat, it was a trade that was DONE but was denied by the NBA office. Pop didn't go up to Barry and tell him I'm shopping you around, he told him pack your bags you're a Hornet. I am quite certain that Finley knows he is tradeable.

Two bigs is what i recommend. Fabs is not a big.
I put out the lineup I liked, can't imagine you would disagree with it.

Why with GNob out 30% Findawg picked up the starts and minutes and not 60% Barry is because ____?

As for trades and not getting anything back, have you seen some of the ridiculous trades that happen regularly in the NBA? Oh yes it is possible. Now that it probably won't happen, fine. But impossible, no it isnt.
Finley knows he could be traded? I doubt that. He has clearly been given the message that he can suck and consitently suck and the minutes will continue to roll. Unlike other Spurs.

I thought Barry was told of his being shopped.

[Fabbs]

Will we ever get to see the playoff series where both Barry and Finley are hot at the same time? :blah

Actually vs Kings R1 last year they were both on.

[Kori Ellis]

You still fail to understand that due to Finley's contract he we cannot get anything back of value other than a minimum contract!!!!

What?

Why would they get a minimum contract back? Finley makes $3M a year from the Spurs.

[2centsworth]

Fin has no value until he cuts down on the twinkies and starts running 50 suicides a day.

[MannyIsGod]

What?

Why would they get a minimum contract back? Finley makes $3M a year from the Spurs.Say what? How did they sign him for more than the vet min?

[MannyIsGod]

Two bigs is what i recommend. Fabs is not a big.
I put out the lineup I liked, can't imagine you would disagree with it.

Why with GNob out 30% Findawg picked up the starts and minutes and not 60% Barry is because ____?

As for trades and not getting anything back, have you seen some of the ridiculous trades that happen regularly in the NBA? Oh yes it is possible. Now that it probably won't happen, fine. But impossible, no it isnt.
Finley knows he could be traded? I doubt that. He has clearly been given the message that he can suck and consitently suck and the minutes will continue to roll. Unlike other Spurs.

I thought Barry was told of his being shopped.Go Google this: NBA Collective Bargaining Agreement.

[MannyIsGod]

What?

Why would they get a minimum contract back? Finley makes $3M a year from the Spurs.Well, he is making 3 million. I was under the impression he had a vet min deal. Either way, the point stands that we'd get back crap. There are virtually no players that make less than that who would be worth trading for.

[Kori Ellis]

Say what? How did they sign him for more than the vet min?

The Spurs had $2.675M available and that's what he got to start with 8% raises. 3years/player option on the third year I believe. So this year he makes around 2.9M and next year he'll get 3.1M.

[sprrs]

are you kidding? that hurt Barry so bad he whined to the press. That was the worst move the Spurs made all year. If they really wanted to trade Barry, they should have goten the deal done. Now that JR Smith is succeeding in Denver, it makes people second guess that non-trade even more. No matter how good Barry does, he still knows he was almost abadoned by his team.

That near trade was the best thing that could have happened for us and Barry. His play was great after the deadline and he's even said it was a wake-up call for him.

And it wasn't the Spurs who pulled the plug on that trade, it was the Warriors. They most likely would have traded Barry had it not been for that.

[Kori Ellis]

And it wasn't the Spurs who pulled the plug on that trade, it was the Warriors. They most likely would have traded Barry had it not been for that.



Actually neither team pulled the plug on the Barry trade to the Hornets. It was a done deal. The paper work got to the league office five minutes late, that's why it didn't go through.

I agree that it was great that it almost happened though. It lit a fire under Barry. But I still wonder what JR would have been able to do here.

[Kori Ellis]

VaSpursFan made the most poignant point to me. Finley doesn't have confidence. The very best shooters with no confidence will fail more times than not, especially in games with the pressure on.

Finley has always been a set shot jump shooter. And, he used to have the most rigorous and meticulous off-season conditioning and jump-shooting programs. I have a few friends that used to train in Chicago at the same gym. They said he worked on his jumper everyday in the summer, six days a week, like crazy.

In the past few years, especially with some of the injuries he's had, he doesn't go through the same rigorous program, not only in the off-season, but during the season as well.



I don't know why you think that. He says he had the most rigorous offseason program this past summer than he's had in years.

[timvp]

What's funny to me is Spurs fans who are being patient with Finley but then want Horry to go away. Finley's numbers are down across the board -- not just his shooting stats. He's not doing anything as well as last year ... except turning the ball over at about the same rate.

Horry, on the other hand, is doing everything better than last year except shooting. And even with his shooting way off, he still averages more points per shot than Finley.

On top of that, Horry has shown that he can come off of a quiet regular season to be a very good playoff performer. Finley has had seasons where he played great in the regular season only to disappear in the playoffs.

If a Spurs fan was looking for someone to exile from Spurs Nation, right now there's no way Horry should enter the conversation before Finley.

[MannyIsGod]

What's funny to me is Spurs fans who are being patient with Finley but then want Horry to go away. Finley's numbers are down across the board -- not just his shooting stats. He's not doing anything as well as last year ... except turning the ball over at about the same rate.

Horry, on the other hand, is doing everything better than last year except shooting. And even with his shooting way off, he still averages more points per shot than Finley.

On top of that, Horry has shown that he can come off of a quiet regular season to be a very good playoff performer. Finley has had seasons where he played great in the regular season only to disappear in the playoffs.

If a Spurs fan was looking for someone to exile from Spurs Nation, right now there's no way Horry should enter the conversation before Finley.

Well, I'm not advocating we keep playing Finely in front of other options. I think when Manu is healthy, Barry should definetly get more minutes than Finley and I think we should definetly give Williams more oppotrunities to see if what he did last game was a fluke or if he really has game left.

The problem is that unlike the 4/5, we don't have many other options right now. With Manu out Finley almost has to play minutes because he's the best option we have, slump or no slump. Horry is taking away early season minutes from guys who could use them far more than he can. Elson and Bonner have a lot more to learn and gain from playing in those games and they argueably can't do much worse than what Horry has been giving.

Apples and Oranges.

[Kori Ellis]

Elson and Bonner have a lot more to learn and gain from playing in those games and they argueably can't do much worse than what Horry has been giving.

Bonner can be a good shooter and hustle guy in small stretches (though he's shooting sub 38% on the season). But I'm still not sure if Elson's "good play" is a mirage or not. Only time will tell. His +/- sucks and he doesn't seem to be catching on yet.

[MannyIsGod]

Bonner can be a good shooter and hustle guy in small stretches (though he's shooting sub 38% on the season). But I'm still not sure if Elson's "good play" is a mirage or not. Only time will tell. His +/- sucks and he doesn't seem to be catching on yet.It doesn't add up to me, because I see him active as hell when he's in the game. I don't seem him make a ton of mistakes, although I do notice him make the same out of position mistakes that most new players to the Spurs make at first. It just doesn't make sense to me that he seems to be playing well with no huge mistakes and to have those hugely negative numbers.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't seem him make a ton of mistakes

I think that's where his teammates and coaching staff might disagree.

[timvp]

Well, I'm not advocating we keep playing Finely in front of other options. I think when Manu is healthy, Barry should definetly get more minutes than Finley and I think we should definetly give Williams more oppotrunities to see if what he did last game was a fluke or if he really has game left.

The problem is that unlike the 4/5, we don't have many other options right now. With Manu out Finley almost has to play minutes because he's the best option we have, slump or no slump. Horry is taking away early season minutes from guys who could use them far more than he can. Elson and Bonner have a lot more to learn and gain from playing in those games and they argueably can't do much worse than what Horry has been giving.

Apples and Oranges.

Valid points.

However, I think there's more options if Finley isn't producing. You can run more of the Parker and Beno backcourt. Bonner played small forward last year, so you can fit him in against the slower small forwards. As you said, Williams can get some minutes.

I expect Finley to break out of his slump but right now he's played worse than anyone on the team. And Finley isn't a player than can make up for his bad shooting by doing something else. He's a shooter first and that's it.

[timvp]

It doesn't add up to me, because I see him active as hell when he's in the game. I don't seem him make a ton of mistakes, although I do notice him make the same out of position mistakes that most new players to the Spurs make at first. It just doesn't make sense to me that he seems to be playing well with no huge mistakes and to have those hugely negative numbers.

I don't get his low +/- numbers either. It's not because he is playing with the bench, because his +/- numbers are bad even playing with the rest of the starters. The player Duncan plays worst with according to +/- numbers? Elson.

If I had to take a guess, his low +/- numbers are indicative of him not rotating fast enough on defense combined with the rest of the team not trusting him to rotate. If they don't trust him to be in the right spot, the other players will be out of position more often and that leads to poor defense. It's not all Elson's fault, but as of right now the Spurs don't play well when he's on the court.

[Fabbs]

Go Google this: NBA Collective Bargaining Agreement.

The Collective Bargaining Agreement says the Spurs cannot play two bigs, trade Finley or play Barry instead of Finley when GNob is out?

You say dogmatically that the Spurs cannot trade Finley for squat. Now that you know he is not vet min but 3 million per is he still untradeable?

[Fabbs]

I don't get his low +/- numbers either. It's not because he is playing with the bench, because his +/- numbers are bad even playing with the rest of the starters. The player Duncan plays worst with according to +/- numbers? Elson.

Can you post those Duncan with Elson numbers? I keep seeing 6-0 when he plays 20+ minutes and 4 of 5 Spurs losses with him chained to the bench.
In fact compare the he to Fabs #s vs Utah. :rolleyes

Also, do you or Kori have any thoughts or insider stuff as to why Finley has Sacred Cow status? Not playing well, allegedly Spurs get benched in favor of who is.

Barry and Finley hot in 2007 Playoffs. One can hope. :hungry:

[MannyIsGod]

The Collective Bargaining Agreement says the Spurs cannot play two bigs, trade Finley or play Barry instead of Finley when GNob is out?

You say dogmatically that the Spurs cannot trade Finley for squat. Now that you know he is not vet min but 3 million per is he still untradeable?The collective bargaining agreement governs the amount of salary you can give/take in a trade. Go and find a player making under 3.5 million a year you would trade Finley for.

[Kori Ellis]

I keep seeing 6-0 when he plays 20+ minutes

Did you ever think that's because when the Spurs are winning, he gets a lot of garbage minutes and gets over 20 mpg?

[timvp]

Can you post those Duncan with Elson numbers?

Only the top 50 player combinations are available. Here they are:


Player 1 Player 2 Team PLUS MINUS +/- Games
B. Bowen T. Duncan Spurs 1,058 -989 69 17
B. Barry T. Duncan Spurs 464 -398 66 16
B. Barry B. Bowen Spurs 414 -353 61 16
T. Duncan T. Parker Spurs 1,016 -956 60 17
T. Duncan M. Ginobili Spurs 580 -525 55 13
T. Duncan F. Oberto Spurs 595 -541 54 17
F. Elson M. Ginobili Spurs 232 -188 44 13
M. Finley B. Udrih Spurs 336 -293 43 16
B. Bowen T. Parker Spurs 994 -952 42 17
B. Bowen B. Udrih Spurs 200 -158 42 15
R. Horry B. Udrih Spurs 264 -223 41 15
F. Elson B. Udrih Spurs 333 -293 40 17
M. Ginobili T. Parker Spurs 570 -530 40 13
T. Parker F. Oberto Spurs 636 -597 39 17
B. Bowen F. Oberto Spurs 585 -548 37 17
R. Horry T. Duncan Spurs 274 -239 35 16
M. Finley M. Ginobili Spurs 220 -185 35 13
T. Duncan B. Udrih Spurs 212 -181 31 17
B. Barry M. Ginobili Spurs 173 -144 29 11
M. Ginobili B. Udrih Spurs 210 -182 28 13
B. Barry F. Oberto Spurs 248 -222 26 15
R. Horry B. Bowen Spurs 304 -280 24 16
M. Ginobili F. Oberto Spurs 438 -415 23 13
B. Barry T. Parker Spurs 409 -387 22 16
R. Horry M. Ginobili Spurs 198 -178 20 12
B. Barry B. Udrih Spurs 331 -311 20 16
B. Bowen M. Ginobili Spurs 498 -480 18 13
B. Udrih F. Oberto Spurs 108 -92 16 12
R. Horry B. Barry Spurs 236 -224 12 15
T. Duncan J. Vaughn Spurs 25 -15 10 3
B. Bowen M. Bonner Spurs 31 -22 9 6
M. Finley T. Duncan Spurs 398 -390 8 17
J. Vaughn M. Ginobili Spurs 15 -7 8 2
F. Elson F. Oberto Spurs 47 -40 7 9
E. Williams T. Duncan Spurs 20 -14 6 2
E. Williams B. Bowen Spurs 20 -15 5 1
R. Horry M. Finley Spurs 287 -283 4 15
M. Finley F. Oberto Spurs 203 -199 4 14
R. Horry F. Elson Spurs 171 -168 3 15
E. Williams J. Vaughn Spurs 5 -2 3 1
E. Williams F. Elson Spurs 24 -21 3 4
M. Finley J. Butler Spurs 8 -5 3 1
T. Duncan M. Bonner Spurs 24 -21 3 4
J. Vaughn T. Parker Spurs 3 0 3 1
M. Ginobili M. Bonner Spurs 45 -42 3 4
E. Williams B. Udrih Spurs 24 -22 2 4
M. Finley J. Vaughn Spurs 8 -6 2 3
B. Bowen F. Elson Spurs 255 -253 2 15
R. Horry J. Butler Spurs 2 -1 1 1
E. Williams M. Ginobili Spurs 1 0 1 1


The Elson-Duncan combo is nowhere to be found. Duncan with Oberto, Horry and even Bonner makes the Top 50. Safe to say it's not a very flattering number.

[cherylsteele]

Manny i would say he was good in last years playoffs vs Dallas. He also hit the big late 3 pter which would have helped us be Champs if not for the ManuFart.
I seen to remember that Manu hit that big 3 ptr and then made had the brain fart right after that.

[ShoogarBear]

What's weird is that this is the first year i can remember where Bruce seems to be having decent +/-. Usually his +/- sucks.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't get his low +/- numbers either. It's not because he is playing with the bench, because his +/- numbers are bad even playing with the rest of the starters. The player Duncan plays worst with according to +/- numbers? Elson.

If I had to take a guess, his low +/- numbers are indicative of him not rotating fast enough on defense combined with the rest of the team not trusting him to rotate. If they don't trust him to be in the right spot, the other players will be out of position more often and that leads to poor defense. It's not all Elson's fault, but as of right now the Spurs don't play well when he's on the court.

This is what I'm not sure about. I know he misses a lot of rotations. I see it. But I also see that other players (Bruce/Manu for example) leave their man and are out of position because they don't trust that he'll rotate, then that fricks up the rest of the D. So I don't know if it would be worse to just let him rotate late, or it's better that they are trying to help him and getting out of positon themselves. All I know, is this quandry is probably what makes the D worse when he's in. I think that he's athletic enough that he's worth having on the floor in a lot of situations, so I'm not sure when he's going to earn his minutes back.

[Kori Ellis]

What's weird is that this is the first year i can remember where Bruce seems to be having decent +/-. Usually his +/- sucks.

His +/- has sucked in the past because he was always the last starter stuck out on the court with all bench players. This year, it seems his time on the bench is more often the same time as Tim. (So he's getting more on court time with Tim and better +/-.)

[Kori Ellis]

All I know is Manu needs to hurry back. Bruce logging 42+ every night in this stretch can't be good for later in the season.

[Fabbs]

I seen to remember that Manu hit that big 3 ptr and then made had the brain fart right after that.

There were actually two big treys. Finleys pulled us from 97-101 to 100-101.
SuperManus gave us a 104-101 lead and the game.

Manus was bigger. But Finleys was big.
"The Fart" erased it all. :cry

[Tom_Foolery]

Elson getting more minutes than him is irrelevent. They dont' play the same position. I suppose you could play 4 centers out there but that might be a tad bit stupid.

You still fail to understand that due to Finley's contract he we cannot get anything back of value other than a minimum contract!!!! I don't know how to put it more plainly than that to you. You can package Finley with a larger contract, but WHY? It makes no sense whatsoever.

As far as putting it out there, thats ridiculous. Barry's situation wasn't a threat, it was a trade that was DONE but was denied by the NBA office. Pop didn't go up to Barry and tell him I'm shopping you around, he told him pack your bags you're a Hornet. I am quite certain that Finley knows he is tradeable.




Um, Finley's making 3 million a year, more than the vet minimum.


where did you get "VET MINIMUM" from? could you provide a link?

[Tom_Foolery]

The collective bargaining agreement governs the amount of salary you can give/take in a trade. Go and find a player making under 3.5 million a year you would trade Finley for.


Josh Childress

[MannyIsGod]

Josh ChildressK, I'm all for that. I'm sure Pop would be too. You think theres a realistic chance in hell its going to happen?

[Fabbs]

K, I'm all for that. I'm sure Pop would be too. You think theres a realistic chance in hell its going to happen?
No. No one would ever trade Boris Diaw and two 1st round picks for Joe Johnson. Just no way it would happen.

Or trade for Chris Webber.
Or sign Jalen Rose for two years at a remaining 16 million a year.

Negative Nancy you need to be open to possibilities.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

K, you keep making your fantasy basketball trades with Finley. I'll remain in reality.

Want to know what all of those players you just mentioned being traded had? Huge contracts. Let me know when you grasp that Finley makes NBA peanuts.

[Tom_Foolery]

:lol

K, you keep making your fantasy basketball trades with Finley. I'll remain in reality.

Want to know what all of those players you just mentioned being traded had? Huge contracts. Let me know when you grasp that Finley makes NBA peanuts.

Josh Childress makes only 20K less than Finley, so they both make peanuts.


next.

[MannyIsGod]

Josh Childress makes only 20K less than Finley, so they both make peanuts.


next.K, I'll give you 100 dollars if Finley gets traded for Josh Childress.

[Fabbs]

K, I'll give you 100 dollars if Finley gets traded for Josh Childress.
psssh. You should give 5,000 to 1 odds the way you are so sure he cannot be shopped and moved. Put me down for two bucks.

All the trades i gave you did happen in the real world. Their large ass contracts should have made it more difficult to move them. The Joe Johnson trade defied all logic. Also Isiah Thomas can be traded with from the real world.

Lets shop Findawg, either get a good trade for him or have him react like Barry did.
Win-Win.

[Tom_Foolery]

K, I'll give you 100 dollars if Finley gets traded for Josh Childress.





Go and find a player making under 3.5 million a year you would trade Finley for.

Josh Childress is a player making under 3.5 million a year that I would consider trading Finley for.


next.


btw, where did you get the information that Finley was making the veteran minimum? cuz, he's making more than that.

[Tom_Foolery]

I'm sorry, I forgot my flash cards at my babysitter's house. We ran out of apples & oranges at home, so my math is a little fuzzy. Being 10 years old ain't easy!


Hey, that's alright scout. Enjoy your youth. You're only 10 years old once. Don't worry about the apples & oranges, son. I'll hook you up. Christmas must be coming early for a certain MannyIsGod!

[MannyIsGod]

Uh, ok?

I was wrong with my vet minimum remark and I said so above.

Like I said, I'll give you 100 dollars when Josh Childress gets traded for Finley.

Is this the part where I post "Next?"

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

K, you keep making your fantasy basketball trades with Finley. I'll remain in reality.

[MannyIsGod]

I'll trade you one Finley rookie card for a Josh Childress rookie card!

[Tom_Foolery]

I'll trade you my Barbie + Ken Beach Fun and I'll even throw in my Easybake Oven for your Cobra Commander.

No thanks. I don't have any sisters anyway.

[MannyIsGod]

One of the best basketball posts I've ever seen. When do you think the Childress/Finley trade will break?

[Fabbs]

One of the best basketball posts I've ever seen. When do you think the Childress/Finley trade will break?
Possibly when ATL is fighting for the #8 East Playoff spot with a 20-28 record before the trade deadline. :lol

[AFBlue]

If a past-his-prime player like Finley is made available, it will be for some obscure 2nd round pick....and Fin's not that bad, yet.

Teams don't trade developmental players for over-the-hill role players. They package multiple developmental players for that "big prize". Or they trade one prospect for another.


Side note: Joe Johnson, who looks like an all-star to me, for Boris Diaw (who had shown NOTHING at the time) and a couple of first rounders with all kinds of lottery protection....not a rediculous trade at all, though not great.

[AFBlue]

The only "rookie contract" player the Spurs can hope to get is one that has fallen out of favor with his coach...like the almost-trade for JR Smith. Keep your eye on malcontent coaches and rookies in the doghouse....

[ChumpDumper]

We're not going to trade Finley.

[Spurminator]

The Diaw/Johnson deal was a sign-and-trade. Not really a good comparison.

[Fabbs]

The Diaw/Johnson deal was a sign-and-trade. Not really a good comparison.
Point of that comparison was that unlikely trades can and do occur.
Manny was/is trying to make it sound like Finleys 3 mil salary makes a trade impossible while Phat Tony, Tom F and I merely say its improbable but still very possible. Costs nothing to shop. Could adjust Fins attitue ala Barry and allow Chump and Fins to continue their relationship.

Chrissy Webber was an 18 million albatross and Billy King still let the 6ers get extorted. Jalen Rose, this list goes on and on. No way is Fins 3 mil a dealbreaker.

Joe J was given 75 million by the ATLs moronic ex owner group. After Diaws perfomance in the 2006 yes I would say ATL got hosed big time. Altho who those draft picks end up being will need to be seen. NBA is littered with picks outside the lottery who became All Stars and Champs. In other words it can only get better for Phxs end. ATL can still do something with Joe J at guard, but they way overpaid.

[ATX Spur]

I merely say its improbable but still very possible. Costs nothing to shop.

It's improbable and it's probable? My head hurts. Did you mistakenly contradict yourself, or were you just watering down your stance?

Atlanta had to overpay for Joe Johnson. No free agents want to go to the Hawks. But they weren't necessarily losers. JJ is averaging 28.3 points a game in ATL. Diaw wasn't going to do that in Atlanta. He probably won't ever do that in Phoenix. Hopefully for them he won't be the first option either at any point.

Yes, Findog is tradeable. He knows that. Teams that would want him couldn't give the Spurs what they would want for our last year's highest bench scorer. That makes a trade unlikely, not "very possible".

[ChumpDumper]

Tim Duncan for Larry Hughes and Scot Pollard.

Very extremely possible!

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

All the brother needs is a couple of slump-busters.







It works, believe me.

[Axl Van Dam]

One of the best basketball posts I've ever seen. When do you think the Childress/Finley trade will break?

:reading Josh Childress is overrated. I'd rather go for a Michael Finley-Mike Bibby trade. Bibby needs a change of scenery to get his game back. :reading

[GrandeDavid]

I'm almost celebrating Finley's slump. I'd rather have him slump it up early in the season than in the playoffs. Then again, if he slumps too long maybe he'll end up having a shit season. Maybe he's just getting too old.

Okay, thinking positively, I think the Finley will be fine and he'll be a big contributor to the Spurs' fourth championship this season.

[MannyIsGod]

Its like Fabbs can't read. I spelled it out for him, and he still doesn't get it. He thinks I"m disputing things based on talent levels. There hasn't been an equal talent trade in the NBA in years, why would I dispute it on those grounds now? Everything is financially driven.

Fabbs, congrats. You're an idiot.

[bdictjames]

Was Finley bad during that GS game as well? Im too lazy to see the box

[Behrooz24]

Was Finley bad during that GS game as well? Im too lazy to see the box

4/8 (2 makes were layups)

[dallaskd]

diaw is no good this season. and about finleys slump..get used to it.

[Fabbs]

Its like Fabbs can't read. I spelled it out for him, and he still doesn't get it. He thinks I"m disputing things based on talent levels. There hasn't been an equal talent trade in the NBA in years, why would I dispute it on those grounds now? Everything is financially driven.

Fabbs, congrats. You're an idiot.

Plenty of exercise with your weak backpedal?

[The Quoter]

I'm almost celebrating Finley's slump. I'd rather have him slump it up early in the season than in the playoffs. Then again, if he slumps too long maybe he'll end up having a shit season. Maybe he's just getting too old.

Okay, thinking positively, I think the Finley will be fine and he'll be a big contributor to the Spurs' fourth championship this season.

[SenorSpur]

Please! Finley isn't in a slump. He's in a career decline. Face it. If Finley had something left, don't you think the Mavs would've held onto him.

The Spurs inherited the Mavs garbage. It was a mistake from the very start.

Who would you rather have had Finley or Josh Howard. Think about it. The Spurs had a chance for both. The Mavs basically jettisoned Finleylast season (and continued to pay him) to make PT for Howard.

Spurs had a chance to draft Howard in the summer of 2003 and they were busy courting JKidd - the most dumbass move all.

So which team made out better?

[ArgSpursFan]

I think Finley needs to go to basket a little more and not force it so much.

He can´t go to the basket any more,the MF is too old now for that

[wildbill2u]

I agree that Finley is in a career decline--the legs are going--as well as a slump.

Some of his shots are so far off line I wonder if he needs glasses. Sight can become a problem as you age and it is so gradual that you don't realize it.

The problem I have is that Pop is still giving him important minutes without corresponding production. Barry is more productive in almost every area this season so he should get more minutes before Finley.

[AFBlue]

He can´t go to the basket any more,the MF is too old now for that

Dude you can say his name....Michael Finley

see....