From the people who gave us the...

[Yonivore]

...Vietnamese slaughter after our surrender of Saigon.

In an interview with Rick and Donna Martinez on North Carolina's Morning News with Jack Boston on News-Talk 680 WPTF (http://www.wptf.com/default.asp), former senator and noted surrenderist George McGovern was interviewed about his new book, Out of Iraq: A Practical Plan for Withdrawal Now (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FOut-Iraq-Practical-Plan-Withdrawal%2Fdp%2F1416534563%2Fsr%3D8-1%2Fqid%3D1165413382%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks&tag=confederateya-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325).

During the course of the interview, and after McGovern described his desire to see the United States pull completely out of Iraq within six months, Rick Martinez brought up the genocides of Shia and Kurds with weapons of mass destruction after the 1991 Gulf War, and then asked McGovern what we should do if the complete pullout led to a similar wave of genocidal killings.

I'm paraphrasing here, but McGovern's response was something along the lines of "it's not our problem," unless we get some sort of an international mandate to go back in to correct it.

As we are all well aware, the Rwandan Genocide saw between 800,000-1 million Tutsis and moderate Hutus slaughtered over about 100 days in 1994. We are still waiting for McGovern's "international" action in Darfur, a slow-motion genocide that has been on-going since 2003, and which has cost 400,000 lives thus far, with no end in sight. McGovern knows any international action to an Iraqi genocide would be slow or more likely, non-existent.

What McGovern is saying is that he does not care if hundreds of thousands of Iraqis—most likely Sunnis—are slaughtered in Iraq as the result of the immediate U.S. pullout he calls for.

http://static.flickr.com/90/278363756_9ae9e8bff2.jpg
So much for multi-culturalism.

[ChumpDumper]

We are still waiting for McGovern's "international" action in Darfur, a slow-motion genocide that has been on-going since 2003, and which has cost 400,000 lives thus far, with no end in sight.No, we're waiting for Bush's action in Darfur. If you want to equate Bush's inaction there to Clinton's in Rwanda, go right ahead -- but don't act like this country doesn't tolerate genocide no matter who is in charge.

http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/images/darfur.jpg

[boutons_]

The USA didn't break Darfur,
the USA didn't break Rwanda,
but the Repugs unnecessarily invaded and broke Iraq and the Repugs have direct, exclusive repsonsibility :

1) for unbreaking Iraq (impossble now, dubya will never pay the real $$cost or conscript the boots) or

2) disengaging with minimal further death and destruction (horribly complex to avoid)

Maybe the Rwandans wanted us to invade,
maybe the Darfurs wanted us to invade,
but the Repugs invaded Iraq, unasked,
and a now a majority of Iraqis think the USA's continued presence is prolonging the violence and and blocking a "final solution", how bad that might be.

The USA couldn't have won in VN, and the majority of the USA finally wanted the US out, not only McGovern and other people derided as peace-niks and hippies and conscript victims.

[Yonivore]

No, we're waiting for Bush's action in Darfur. If you want to equate Bush's inaction there to Clinton's in Rwanda, go right ahead -- but don't act like this country doesn't tolerate genocide no matter who is in charge.

http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/images/darfur.jpg
If you would bother reading some of my stolen material, this is addressed.

[ChumpDumper]

If you would bother reading some of my stolen material, this is addressed.Where?

The talk radio station's home page or amazon.com?

[Yonivore]

Where?

The talk radio station's home page or amazon.com?
To paraphrase Chump "Harriet Miers" Dumper, from an earlier post, "I'm not going to read the blog for you."

Go read it yourself.

[Bob Lanier]

You and what army are going to invade Sudan?

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao

I'm not going to read it if you don't link it, dumbass.

Your plagiarism and lying has caught up to you.

[Yonivore]

:lmao

I'm not going to read it if you don't link it, dumbass.

Your plagiarism and lying has caught up to you.
Not only was it linked, I included the relevant paragraph and -- gasp! -- gave proper attribution to the author.

[ChumpDumper]

The talk radio station's home page or amazon.com?

[Yonivore]

The talk radio station's home page or amazon.com?
Neither.

[ChumpDumper]

Those are the only links here.

[Yonivore]

Those are the only links here.
Who said it was in this thread, Einstein?

[ChumpDumper]

I'm too lazy to link my own post and my helper-reader is on a smoke break.

[spurster]

I thought McGovern lost to Nixon. And I thought Bush started the Iraq war. How do you manage not to blame the people in charge for their failures?

[Yonivore]

I don't read what Yonivore posts and therefore, monkeys and misinformation fly out my butt which, ironically, looks like my face.

[clambake]

Yoni showing the dents in his armour.

[Yonivore]

I thought McGovern lost to Nixon. And I thought Bush started the Iraq war. How do you manage not to blame the people in charge for their failures?
It was McGovern Democrats that convinced the country we had lost the Tet Offensive and that Vietnam was a lost cause, condemning millions to death.

And, Iraq is not yet a failure.

[ChumpDumper]

Until my helper-reader-linker comes back, I have been reduced to Wayne's World smack.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I thought McGovern lost to Nixon. And I thought Bush started the Iraq war. How do you manage not to blame the people in charge for their failures?


You see it's easier to blame the democrats and the media for all of the crap that has happened since Iraq.. Bush's 'victory' strategy has been exposed as campaign slogan... and not a military strategy.. Funny how Yoni seems to skip over the war part and is now blaming the democrats for the soon to be slaughter..of course blaming the actual people who created the mess would be detrimental to his biased view.

[Yonivore]

You see it's easier to blame the democrats and the media for all of the crap that has happened since Iraq.. Bush's 'victory' strategy has been exposed as campaign slogan... and not a military strategy.. Funny how Yoni seems to skip over the war part and is now blaming the democrats for the soon to be slaughter..of course blaming the actual people who created the mess would be detrimental to his biased view.
We haven't pulled out yet. But, if we do, it will be because a Democratic Congress cut of funding and forced this President to withdraw prematurely.

[ChumpDumper]

We haven't pulled out yet. But, if we do, it will be because a Democratic Congress cut of funding and forced this President to withdraw prematurely.Or because Bushie changed his mind in order to try and salvage his legacy. If he does, you will consider it brilliant.

[Yonivore]

Or because Bushie changed his mind in order to try and salvage his legacy.
Pullling out will ruin his legacy.


If he does, you will consider it brilliant.
If he does, it will be because we've achieved our objectives there.

[clambake]

Why don't you lay out our objectives now, so we can later compare them to reality?

[ChumpDumper]

Please, define victory in Iraq.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Why don't you lay out our objectives now, so we can later compare them to reality?


Victory is his objective... don't ask for specifics though

[Yonivore]

Please, define victory in Iraq.
A free, democratic, Iraq able to provide for it's own security.

[xrayzebra]

Victory is his objective... don't ask for specifics though


You ever heard of total defeat of the enemy. Not a
political compromise. Defeat. I know you only want that
for the United States. But it could be possible in Iraq as
it could have been in Vet Nam, except for the folks like
you that have no guts. Yeah, I am calling you a stinkin
coward and have no understanding of what war is about. It
is about winning. You will settle for the United States to
be defeated but not the people who want you dead. You
really don't get it at all.

You blame Bush, but never, never lay any blame on your
so called problem at the feet of Congress. You know there
are over 600 of them in Washington, DC. don't you find
it a little strange that none of them could find the
intelligence that told us we shouldn't invade Iraq. Really
strange since it was debated twice and the leaders of
the dimm-0-craps were talking big and strong. That is
until we had some problems and then it was all, I told you
so. Bush lied. No you silly, silly person, Bush got it
right, the critics have it wrong now. If we pull out, which
we wont, because the dimm-o-craps for all their talk, know
the truth, know they will be good Muslims or dead in the
future.

I am sure if we do lose you will have no problem with
the new leadership, you will be praying, very hard, five
times a day and telling everyone in sight how you love
Allah!

[ChumpDumper]

Define "free."

[George Gervin's Afro]

Define "free."


As you see ray has no idea other than to kill 2 billion muslims..of course we can't possible kill them all but ray doesn't care

[clambake]

Rays harmless. He just thinks this Iraq thing is as romantic and noble as D-Day.

[xrayzebra]

^^You show you ignorance more and more each and every day.

Did we kill every Germany and Japanese person during the
second world war. No dummy, we killed the fanatics and
convinced those who lived that we would kill them if they defied us.
Really simple isn't it? And everyone lived happily every after.
You see we won.

[xrayzebra]

Rays harmless. He just thinks this Iraq thing is as romantic and noble as D-Day.

It is stupid. Except you have got the brains God gave a goose
and cant see past your nose. And their is no romance in war.
Only death and destruction. And you will witness much of it
in the United States if you don't get your head out of the sand.
Of other places.

[clambake]

So, you are saying that Bush should convince them that all will die if they don't submit to our will?

So, you're disappointed with Bush's tactics?

[Oh, Gee!!]

A free, democratic, Iraq able to provide for it's own security.


actually, that would be the consolation prize.

[xrayzebra]

I said what I said. Just read my post. My argument is with you,
not Bush.

[clambake]

You're the one that said we have to convince them that death is their only other option.

[xrayzebra]

You're the one that said we have to convince them that death is their only other option.

If they want to continue to fight us. Yes. Or live in peace
if they want to stop fighting. But you are now using
semantics to attempt to further your argument, like
a child in debating class.

[George Gervin's Afro]

^^You show you ignorance more and more each and every day.

Did we kill every Germany and Japanese person during the
second world war. No dummy, we killed the fanatics and
convinced those who lived that we would kill them if they defied us.
Really simple isn't it? And everyone lived happily every after.
You see we won.


Ok ray but the fucking problem is that our actions have created more god damn terrorists..we ain't convincing anyone..

[clambake]

Who is THEY and why aren't THEY dead already. Is it because THEY keep multiplying?

[101A]

Ok ray but the fucking problem is that our actions have created more god damn terrorists..we ain't convincing anyone..


Nope, charismatic, opportunistic people, along with propoganda and a captive, complicit media in the region have created the terrorists. Most people in the ME believe Washington is behing 9/11, you don't think, that even without the Iraq war, there would be multiplying terrorists? Iraq war has provided plenty of material for the machine, no doubt.

I'm thinking, more than that, however, an indifferent myopic attitude ever since the end of the cold war, about what the hell was going on in the education centers in the Middle East, created all of these terrorists. Appearing weak and indecisive in earlier, less damaging attacks, didn't help. They've been breeding them for YEARS, they're just now coming into their own.

[Drive Like Jehu]

Sorry ChumpDumper is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.

[clambake]

So, we're gettin our ass kicked by con-men?

Damn, it's hopeless.

[xrayzebra]

Ok ray but the fucking problem is that our actions have created more god damn terrorists..we ain't convincing anyone..

No George, you are wrong. It has brought them to a couple of
places, Afghanistan and Iraq. And soon to be Somalia, because
they need the freedom to operate, Somalia is one place that
they can re-establish their base. For now, they aren't here
blowing up public places.

We will soon have to do something about that problem,
Somalia, our actions didn't create the problem it only
brought out the fact that so many of these terrorist exist.

I will ask you a question: why do you think these people
came into existence to begin with?

My theory, the people who have ruled in that part of the
country for centuries. I don't mean the British and French,
God only knows they did exploit that region for many
years, but they, the Sheiks, Kings or whatever. They exploited
their own people. The Mullahs are no better, they exploit
their own for their own power and wealth. And they will
damn well fight to protect it. There has never been
enough work for the common folks or the educated. And
they do have many educated. The United States and
other western world countries have benefited greatly from
the educated. The Western world countries are now
getting many of the working class, which in the United
States we had not experienced until just recently, and I
might add, suspect that many are illegals. These working
class bring no skill with them. Their education has been
in many cases in the schools run by the Mullahs, which
in addition to learning to read consisted only of the
Muslim religion according to "JIM", if you get my
drift. You know like mass suicide.

These working class have little skill, except hard workers,
and not much skill in our language or customs. And like
many other races, yes the Mexicans, tend to gather with
those that they feel comfortable with. And what happens,
they again follow their leaders and customs and feel left
out of the main stream, which they are. Those that do
move out and learn our language and customs
thrive. Why, because they see the benefits this country
has to offer and if you talk to them think most of our
young folks are lazy and shiftless because they wont
sacrifice for a few years to get ahead.

Another question. How many motels, short stops and
other so called failed business's have you seen these
people take over and make a success of? Strange
isn't it.

Another question. Motel's. You want to move about
and remain invisible, well there you go.

[Yonivore]

Ok ray but the fucking problem is that our actions have created more god damn terrorists..we ain't convincing anyone..
Really? You have their membership rolls handy?

[turambar85]

The USA didn't break Darfur,
the USA didn't break Rwanda,
but the Repugs unnecessarily invaded and broke Iraq and the Repugs have direct, exclusive repsonsibility :

Sorry Buttons, but I have to strongly disagree with you there.

The US did break Darfur.

The US did break Rwanda.

Bush and Clintons are, thus, complete failures as leaders of the "free world' and protectors and champions of "human rights" and the "right to life."

The US INACTION broke each situation in the same way that you break the situation when you are standing by with a gun, and watch somebody torture and kill an old man in the street. There are any number of things you could do. Shoot him and end it there, shoot in the air and scare him shitless, or hold the gun to his head and demand he stop. We did none of those, and, do to good samaritan laws, we are as accountable as the man with the gun.

If Bush had fucked up Darfur, and Clinton had rode to the rescue of Rwanda, then you would be calling for Bush's head on a platter, but you don't. You allow partisan bullshit to blind you to the truth that both of these "great men" are really poll-whipped cowards who don't have the stones to do what it takes in crunch time.

[Bob Lanier]

Bush and Clintons are, thus, complete failures as leaders of the "free world' and protectors and champions of "human rights" and the "right to life."
Bullshit.

[boutons_]

"The US did break Darfur.

The US did break Rwanda."

No, the US didn't break them. The US was guilty of omission, allowing those two situations to break themselves. Lots of other countries also ommitted who could have helped. A lot of guilt to go around.

Still a US fault, but different from the guilt of COMmission of the unnecessary invading/breaking of Iraq, which is EXCLUSIVELY the fault of the Repugs (not the USA). Humanitarian help to the Iraqi people was at highest the 3rd "justification" for Repugs invading Iraq. the first 10 being WMD (bullshit) and next 5 being "Saddam did WTC" (bullshit) .

Trying to intervene in Somalia and getting "Blackhawk Down", or trying intervene in Iran to free the embassy hostages, or shooting Cruises at OBL, etc. I support all of those. I didn't support letting the Iranians go unpunished for the embassy, nor St Ronnie cutting and running after the Marines got slaughtered in Beirut.

In the context of war on terror, Afghanistan was FAR down the list of US priorities, first of which was stabilizing Afghanistan and keeping up the pressure on the Taliban and Al-Quaida in/near Afghanistan. Afghanistan/Taliban/Al-Quaida had actually attacked the US, while Saddam hadn't done shit to the US and hadn't be able to do shit in the M/E after the Gulf War.

"If Bush had fucked up Darfur, and Clinton had rode to the rescue of Rwanda, then you would be calling for Bush's head on a platter,"

Exaclty, because if you're going to stuff like that or Iraq, you've got to win, or you leave a much worse situation than doing nothing. dubya fucking up Iraq and leaving the country fucked up is impeachable.

Stick your "partisan bullshit" up your ass. Prove I'm a partisan.

About "crunch time", dubya/Repugs dicks go limp when the "going" they created in Iraq gets "tough". Now the Repugs call in ISG to provide cover for dubya, NOT to solve the Iraq problem.

One Iraqi commentator said the ISG recommendations are meant to solve dubya's problems (get dubya/Repugs out of Iraq before the 2008 campaign), NOT to solve Iraqi problems that dubya created.

"fleaders of the "free world' and protectors and champions of "human rights" and the "right to life."

absolute totol bullshit. The ONLY interest the US has, has ALWAYS had, is the USA's OWN self-interest (mainly FINANACIAL interest), not this disastrous, self-congratulating MYTH as of USA happy, shiny, self-less paragon of national sainthood and Mother Theresa of nations.

[101A]

.... that both of these "great men" are really poll-whipped cowards who don't have the stones to do what it takes in crunch time.

Interesting take, I guess.

But when Bush "stays the course" in Iraq, determined to see it through to the end, because that is what HE believes regardless of poll numbers. He gets CRUCIFIED!

This country DOES NOT want politicians with the courage of their convictions, unless those convictions jibe with what the majority thinks.

[101A]

So, we're gettin our ass kicked by con-men?

Damn, it's hopeless.


Charismatic leaders are not con-men; they are what they are. "The cult of personality" and all that.

Also, we're not getting our asses kicked. We're quitting.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Charismatic leaders are not con-men; they are what they are. "The cult of personality" and all that.

Also, we're not getting our asses kicked. We're quitting.


You choose to see it as quitting. I choose to see it as saving American lives.

[boutons_]

'We're quitting"

... is what happens when you/dubya, NOT me, NOT we, never should have started it.

[01Snake]

'We're quitting"

... is what happens when you/dubya, NOT me, NOT we, never should have started it.

We know you're a pussy Boutons. We're okay with it. :lol

[George Gervin's Afro]

We know you're a pussy Boutons. We're okay with it. :lol


Hey boutons a statement like this from people who think 5 deferrment dick is a hero should be taken as a compliment. :lol