Keep the muslims out of my backyard

[AFE7FATMAN]

This could happen only in TEX-ASS :lol
KTRK/KATY, TX
There's an awful lot of exciting news when you round the corner on Baker Road. One of two big yellow signs announces a new neighbor is coming soon.

K.I. A., that's the Katy Islamic Association, plan to build a mosque here.

"It's not an appropriate place to have a mosque or church," said resident Barbara Simpson.

It isn't going over real well.

"As a house of worship, they shouldn't be disturbing the peace and tranquility of 15 homes," said resident John Wetmore.

Neighbors tell us they're concerned about traffic and drainage and a little fear of the unknown. Some of the homeowners even offered to buy the land back for more than a million dollars. The K.I.A. doesn't seem very interested in the offers.


So it seems the community at the end of Baker Road has a pretty good fight. But this fight has gone much farther than many between two neighbors. You see in these fights, sometimes neighbors throw mud at one another. In this instance, they're wallowing in it.

Craig Baker owns pigs. He's the guy behind the second big yellow sign on Baker Road. That's the one announcing Friday night pig races.

Sure can. But aren't pigs on the property line racing on a Friday night a little offensive to a Muslim neighbor?

"The meat of a pig is prohibited in the religion of Islam," said Katy Islamic Association member Youssof Allam. "It's looked upon as a dirty creature."

Yeah, there's that and also that Friday night is a Muslim holy day.

"That is definitely a slap in the face," said Allam..

Now before you go thinking Craig Baker is unfair, or full of hate, or somehow racist, hear him out.

Baker has long roots here. His family named the road and when the new neighbors moved in, he tells us, they asked him to move out.

"Basically that I should package up my family and my business and find a place elsewhere," said Baker. "That's ridiculous, they just bought the place one week prior and he's telling me I should think about leaving."
That new owners deny they ever said anything like that, but Baker isn't budging.
Baker admits the pigs are a message he is not leaving.

The 11-acre property is sandwiched between a pricey subdivision and Craig Baker's business.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=4808968

[johnsmith]

Texans are just so damned open-minded. This is the same state that seems to think they should fly the Texas state flag as high as they do the American flag. For some reason that is totally beyond me, people here are Texans first and Americans second.

[101A]

...and when a church in Monte Vista wanted to build an additional parking lot, the residents did everything they could to prevent it...and when a quarry wanted to move into the Hill Country surrounding Helotes in the mid '80's the residents banded together, and those reddest of Republicans used environmental laws to keep them out; recently fought off Wal-Mart in much the same way.

People do what they got to do; VERY funny how he's chosen to do it.

[101A]

... people here are Texans first and Americans second.

I would put them on equal footing, probably.

When American includes Ca. and Ma, can you blame them for associating closely with Texas. People up here in Pa are AMAZED at Texas pride when they visit; they don't understand it either, but most envy it, frankly.

[johnsmith]

...and when a church in Monte Vista wanted to build an additional parking lot, the residents did everything they could to prevent it...and when a quarry wanted to move into the Hill Country surrounding Helotes in the mid '80's the residents banded together, and those reddest of Republicans used environmental laws to keep them out; recently fought off Wal-Mart in much the same way.

People do what they got to do; VERY funny how he's chosen to do it.


Yeah, but this is a mosque. Have you ever been to a mosque? They are the cleanest, nicest, quietest places of worship that I've ever been to in my life, and I've been to quite a few. They are never huge structures that dominate the area (Cornerstone Church), and the people that worship there know full well that they aren't the most welcomed people in an American society that is filled with 50% of the people thinking that if you're a Muslim then you're obviously a terrorist. They aren't going to cause trouble, these people are just scared of something they don't understand.

[johnsmith]

I would put them on equal footing, probably.

When American includes Ca. and Ma, can you blame them for associating closely with Texas. People up here in Pa are AMAZED at Texas pride when they visit; they don't understand it either, but most envy it, frankly.


You think it's envy? I don't. That's just my opinion though, and after reading Spurstalk for this long, God knows my opinion isn't near as mainstream as I once thought it was.

[101A]

...people are just scared of something they don't understand.

A truism, and it doesn't just apply to Texans.

I would say people are becoming more and more alarmed at the level of Muslim penetration in the "Western" world, in general. They are now beginning to hold there own "courts" of a sort, in England.

Muslim societies are QUITE different from ours here - that cannot be denied; and Muslims don't assimilate into ours like previous immigrants. Seeing the aforementioned happenings in England, and the riots in France - coupled with the extreme regimes depicted on the news, trepidation is, frankly, understandable. Education and familiarity are probably in order, and will most likely help the situation. BUT, as long as terrorists all come from the ranks of "Muslims", there WILL be tension. Mormon temples, btw, are treated in similar ways, btw.

[xrayzebra]

Yeah, but this is a mosque. Have you ever been to a mosque? They are the cleanest, nicest, quietest places of worship that I've ever been to in my life, and I've been to quite a few. They are never huge structures that dominate the area (Cornerstone Church), and the people that worship there know full well that they aren't the most welcomed people in an American society that is filled with 50% of the people thinking that if you're a Muslim then you're obviously a terrorist. They aren't going to cause trouble, these people are just scared of something they don't understand.

Quietest? Except when they put speakers outside and make their calls
for worship five times a day. Go to the ME and see how quite it is.

And nothing says they wont put speakers outside.

[Extra Stout]

And nothing says they wont put speakers outside.
Katy Code of Ordinances, Sec. 7.502, Clause (3) says they won't.

The Texas Neighborhood Abatement Act also says they won't.

[xrayzebra]

Katy Code of Ordinances, Sec. 7.502, Clause (3) says they won't.

The Texas Neighborhood Abatement Act also says they won't.


What have the federal courts said tho. And that maybe who makes the
final decision.

I just cant wait until they go to court to force the farmer off his land with
his pigs. And they will. Bet on it.

[johnsmith]

Katy Code of Ordinances, Sec. 7.502, Clause (3) says they won't.

The Texas Neighborhood Abatement Act also says they won't.


Thank you.

[johnsmith]

A truism, and it doesn't just apply to Texans.

I would say people are becoming more and more alarmed at the level of Muslim penetration in the "Western" world, in general. They are now beginning to hold there own "courts" of a sort, in England.

Muslim societies are QUITE different from ours here - that cannot be denied; and Muslims don't assimilate into ours like previous immigrants. Seeing the aforementioned happenings in England, and the riots in France - coupled with the extreme regimes depicted on the news, trepidation is, frankly, understandable. Education and familiarity are probably in order, and will most likely help the situation. BUT, as long as terrorists all come from the ranks of "Muslims", there WILL be tension. Mormon temples, btw, are treated in similar ways, btw.

You're absolutely right, it doesn't apply to just Texans, that was a dumb thing to say on my part.

The shame about education and familiarity being necessary is that the public school system probably (I say probably because I don't know for sure) won't touch the subject of Islamic, Christian or any other religious education for that matter. People just learn what there dumbass parents tell them, ie, Terrorists that flew 9/11 planes were Muslims, therefore, all Muslims are terrorists.
As far as terrorists being mainly Islamic, it's amazing how fast we as Americans forget about the Timothy McVeigh's and Ted Kazinski's (sp) of the world.

[boutons_]

If somebody wanted to build a "Christian" church on that lot, silence.

So many macho assholes like to say stuff like "I defend the Constitution" or "you and I reserve the right to practice our religion and I'll fight to the death to defend that right" except when I personally don't like/agree with your religion. hypocrits.

[johnsmith]

If somebody wanted to build a "Christian" church on that lot, silence.

So many macho assholes like to say stuff like "I defend the Constitution" or "you and I reserve the right to practice our religion and I'll fight to the death to defend that right" except when I personally don't like/agree with your religion. hypocrits.


Holy Shit, I agree with Boutons.

[101A]

...
As far as terrorists being mainly Islamic, it's amazing how fast we as Americans forget about the Timothy McVeigh's and Ted Kazinski's (sp) of the world.


Certainly haven't forgotten OKC - and have refenenced that in recent posts, but got tired of putting discliamers on every post about who are the terrorists.

Bottom line:

Radical Muslims: a whole bunch worldwide
Idiot American nutjobs seeking revenge for Waco: 1 (until proven otherwise)

[101A]

http://www.state-journal.com/news/article/1149832 http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=57577 There's two.


O.K.
:rolleyes

[johnsmith]

Certainly haven't forgotten OKC - and have refenenced that in recent posts, but got tired of putting discliamers on every post about who are the terrorists.

Bottom line:

Radical Muslims: a whole bunch worldwide
Idiot American nutjobs seeking revenge for Waco: 1 (until proven otherwise)


Again, you're right, but I was just trying to point out that not every terrorist is a Muslim. In fact, terrorist action within our borders have been more numerous (perhaps not as devistating) but more numerous from those that have no affiliation with Islam.

BUT, back to the original point of this thread, and I actually think Boutons said it best (I hate admitting that), but we are so hypocritical about stuff like this and I think he's right, if it was a Christian church, there would be no complaints.

However, I still believe in profiling in regards to terrorist action, so I'm all for bugging said mosque, so maybe I'm hypocritical as well.

[clambake]

If you bug the mosque, you'll need a translator that can be trusted. Use your imagination. Build a synagogue tall enough to block the spiritual path to Mecca. That may create another problem, however. To keep the jews in line, elect David Duke as mayor and throw in a Aryan headquarters for good measure. To keep skinheads in line you'll need some Black Panthers. After the scrimmage is over, the pigs will rule again.

[johnsmith]

If you bug the mosque, you'll need a translator that can be trusted. Use your imagination. Build a synagogue tall enough to block the spiritual path to Mecca. That may create another problem, however. To keep the jews in line, elect David Duke as mayor and throw in a Aryan headquarters for good measure. To keep skinheads in line you'll need some Black Panthers. After the scrimmage is over, the pigs will rule again.


:lmao :lmao

[boutons_]

Are these Katy Muslims American citizens?

[clambake]

My guess would be yes. They've already hired a mexican crew to do the landscaping.

[01Snake]

Houston has a HUGE muslim population. Katy is a stones throw away so I'm not sure why these people are so up in arms.

[Extra Stout]

Houston has a HUGE muslim population. Katy is a stones throw away so I'm not sure why these people are so up in arms.

Drive a ways out Hillcroft and you hit the South Asian neighborhoods. LOTS of Pakistanis live down there. Many of them are doctors, lawyers, scientists, and such.

[01Snake]

Drive a ways out Hillcroft and you hit the South Asian neighborhoods. LOTS of Pakistanis live down there. Many of them are doctors, lawyers, scientists, and such.

Got a good friend up in H-Town who is just that. Very successful and would do anything for a friend.

[sandman]

Houston has a HUGE muslim population. Katy is a stones throw away so I'm not sure why these people are so up in arms.

Damn, that is FUNNY. I live in Katy and my house is almost 30 miles from downtown Houston. First, Katy proper is about as opposite as Houston as you can get. Most is still rural in atmosphere, everyone lives for Katy Tigers football and wears Aggie baseball caps. If you are talking about the Katy area, especially south of I-10 where the majority of the county that is considered "Katy" is located, it is very WASPy and very expensive. Katy Taylor, Seven Lakes and Cinco Ranch high schools all boast somewhere around 75-80% white kids.

IF Baker Road is where I think it is, the only thing those people have in common with the city of Houston would be those that live in Royal Oaks or Memorial. A mosque would definitely be seen as out of place in that neighborhood, especially when there is the extremely high chance that the congregants of said mosque would not be local to the neighborhood or surrounding communities.

That is not to say that the appropriateness of their endeavor breaks any laws, but it is ironic that they select proporty in a rich WASP neighborhood on one side and a pig farm on the other, then allegedly want to shut down the pig farm.

btw, the muslim population in Houston is around 50K, or about 1% of the Houston MSA. Buddhists in Houston number about the same amount. Not sure I would call that a "huge" presence, albeit their presence is very visible.

[johnsmith]

Damn, that is FUNNY. I live in Katy and my house is almost 30 miles from downtown Houston. First, Katy proper is about as opposite as Houston as you can get. Most is still rural in atmosphere, everyone lives for Katy Tigers football and wears Aggie baseball caps. If you are talking about the Katy area, especially south of I-10 where the majority of the county that is considered "Katy" is located, it is very WASPy and very expensive. Katy Taylor, Seven Lakes and Cinco Ranch high schools all boast somewhere around 75-80% white kids.

IF Baker Road is where I think it is, the only thing those people have in common with the city of Houston would be those that live in Royal Oaks or Memorial. A mosque would definitely be seen as out of place in that neighborhood, especially when there is the extremely high chance that the congregants of said mosque would not be local to the neighborhood or surrounding communities.

That is not to say that the appropriateness of their endeavor breaks any laws, but it is ironic that they select proporty in a rich WASP neighborhood on one side and a pig farm on the other, then allegedly want to shut down the pig farm.

btw, the muslim population in Houston is around 50K, or about 1% of the Houston MSA. Buddhists in Houston number about the same amount. Not sure I would call that a "huge" presence, albeit their presence is very visible.


They don't want to shut the pig farm down, I read another article about this today. They just want the cattle/pigs off the land that they have rightfully purchased. Which the farmer did.

[sandman]

They don't want to shut the pig farm down, I read another article about this today. They just want the cattle/pigs off the land that they have rightfully purchased. Which the farmer did.

That's a fair request.

http://blogs.chron.com/insidekaty/

I found it intresting that the head of the Muslim group stated that there was not a mosque within several miles of the proposed location, over by Hwy 6 and Richmond. That is about 6 miles from the proposed location, depending on your route. There is also another mosque about 5-6 miles due north of the proposed location on Barker Cypress Road just south of Little York.

Not saying that they don't have the right to build the mosque, but two mosques for a religion that represents 1% of the population within 10 miles of the farthest developed part of Katy is not exactly martyr material. Considering that most Katy residents that don't work in the Energy Corridor travel 15-20 miles one way to work every day, I just don't get my heartstrings tugged over this one.

[Extra Stout]

That Chronicle blog has a link to a site run by those organized against the mosque. It becomes pretty obvious in perusing that site that much of the opposition to the mosque is simple anti-Muslim bigotry.

[Extra Stout]

Reading the forum on that site further, I must clarify my previous statement about the opponents of the mosque. Many of the opponents are just out-and-out crackers.

"Wake up, America! Why do we let these brown people in in the first place! The KIA is part of a conspiracy to take over America and make our women wear burqas! We should be killing Muslims, not letting them build mosques! Stand up for white rights!"

When they do their picketing protests, I wonder whether they will wear their white sheets or not?

[clambake]

Like I said earlier, you need the perfect balance of jews, muslims, skinheads and black panthers. When that quarrel is over, the chinese can sweep up the rewards.

j/k

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Muslim societies are QUITE different from ours here - that cannot be denied; and Muslims don't assimilate into ours like previous immigrants. Seeing the aforementioned happenings in England, and the riots in France - coupled with the extreme regimes depicted on the news, trepidation is, frankly, understandable. Education and familiarity are probably in order, and will most likely help the situation. BUT, as long as terrorists all come from the ranks of "Muslims", there WILL be tension. Mormon temples, btw, are treated in similar ways, btw.

So Muslim law is supplanting constitutional law in the UK? Bullshit.

The riots in France? They were motivated by poverty, not religion.

The extreme regimes depicted on the news... :lmao

Terrorists are all Muslims!? Bullshit. Northern Ireland. The Balkans. Russia. The South Pacific. The KKK. Tibet even. There are and have been Christian and even Buddhist terrorists. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. To say ALL terrorists are Muslim, and thus imply that all Muslims are terrorists, is dangerous nonsense.

The tension comes from media-induced fearmongering and ignorance about Muslims. Yes, there are dangerous Muslim extremeists in the world. Do they account for the majority of Muslims? Not even close.

And you know how you fight extremeism (in any ideology)? You stop marginalising and persecuting people for their faith, you build bridges between communities, and assist the Muslim communities to teach moderation and tolerance. Reactions like this only increase the likelihood of turning those who are being persecuted towards more radical ideology.

[sandman]

That Chronicle blog has a link to a site run by those organized against the mosque. It becomes pretty obvious in perusing that site that much of the opposition to the mosque is simple anti-Muslim bigotry.

I realize that in some of your worlds all rich white protestants exercize bigotry and religious intolerance, but I thought this one post from the forum on the "anti" site was rather concise in stating what are probably more in line with the real issues:


" I reject the notion that a public gathering place of any kind should be allowed to be built and operated in a manner that is certain to destroy the aesthetic and appeal of the neighborhood. The lack of public buildings is a big part of what attracted us to become property-owners here in the first place. This is a travesty.
But of even greater concern to me is that at least some of the KIA seem to think this is about the fact that this building is an Islamic mosque. WAKE UP! The issue is that we have a large population of children in our neighborhood. The amount of traffic accompanying a public building, and the lack of adequate access to this quiet, secluded corner is sure to result in car/pedestrian, car/bicycle, car/motorcycle, car/horseback injuries or fatalities. This kind of thoughtless intrusion to our neighborhood is beyond insensitive. If I'd chosen to expose my children to uncontrolled traffic and bulging parking lots, I would not have chosen to purchase my home in a neighborhood subdivision! A structure such as this proposed mosque, tucked away off the neighborhood's beaten paths, is an unnecessary and unacceptable risk to the safety and quality of life of those who LIVE here.
If our city officials allow this to continue they are failing to preserve and protect the community to which they are sworn to serve. I am at a loss to understand how the rights of a single property owner usurp the collective rights of the entire neighborhood? I would be equally incensed if the proposed structure was a synagogue, a church, a temple or a shrine. PUBLIC buildings do not belong crammed-in and amongst PRIVATE homes. Compare this site with the site of every other house of worship in our local area. Without exception, EVERY OTHER house of worship is located on sites with ready access to streets pre-designed for high traffic and with grounds and parking areas that enhance the adjacent neighborhoods, not endanger them. The insensitivity of the KIA proposal is indicative of a complete lack of concern for the neighborhood aesthetic and the safety of its residents. I am sure it makes KIA feel better about themselves to claim this is all racially motivated. Let me very clear...it is not. KIA lacks the graciousness to consider the detrimental impact that a large Public building will have on our private lives. It is not about race...it is about not having a social conscience.

Regardless if the webmaster of this site is a bit phobic and deals in generalizations (which he is and which he does), that does not nullify the very real and justifiable concerns listed above by the homeowners in the residential community.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Texans are just so damned open-minded. This is the same state that seems to think they should fly the Texas state flag as high as they do the American flag. For some reason that is totally beyond me, people here are Texans first and Americans second.

Why is it the guy with an established business has to be open minded? If it's such a problem to them and their religion, maybe they should have read the fucking sign before they bought the land.

Why should someone making an income and running their own business pick up and move just to accommodate the new neighbors? Fuck that.

[boutons_]

December 8, 2006

In Munich, Provocation in a Symbol of Foreign Faith

By MARK LANDLER

MUNICH, Dec. 5 — Helga Schandl says she has nothing against Muslims. For three decades, she worked in Munich’s wholesale food market, where many of her colleagues were immigrants from Turkey. “I have experienced integration firsthand,” she said.

Yet Mrs. Schandl, a 67-year-old Bavarian, is leading a fierce campaign to halt plans to build a mosque in a working-class district here. “It is a provocation,” she said of the mosque, which would sit across a graceful square from her Roman Catholic church — its minarets an exotic counterpoint to the church’s neo-baroque steeples. “The mosque doesn’t have anything to do with religion,” she said. “It is a power play.”

Of the many ways that Christians and Muslims rub up against each other in this country, the construction of mosques has become one of the most contentious. Symbols of a foreign faith, rising in German cities, they are stoking anti-foreign sentiment and reinforcing fears that Christianity is under threat.

Why, Mrs. Schandl asked, do the Turks want to build their mosque right here, on a site opposite St. Korbinian? Like churches everywhere in Germany, hers is struggling to survive in a secular society. A few empty churches are being converted into banks or restaurants.

For Onder Yildiz, a soft-spoken but intense leader of the Turkish community, the answer is simple: “A mosque next to a church helps intensify dialogue between the religions,” he said.

On one level, Mr. Yildiz is right: St. Korbinian church and the city’s mayor have welcomed the mosque, which would be the third, and most prominent, in Munich, the heartland of German Catholicism.

But a vocal minority of residents has resisted, holding protest meetings, collecting signatures, and filing a petition with the Bavarian Parliament. “Bavarian life,” the petition declares, “is marked by the drinking of beer and the eating of pork. In Muslim faith, both are unclean and forbidden.” With the support of Bavaria’s conservative state government, the residents have been able to tie up the project in court.

Mosques have existed in Germany for decades, but only in recent years has there been a building boom. There are now 150 mosques in Germany, in addition to about 2,000 Muslim prayer rooms in cellars, warehouses and other converted industrial spaces.

As Germany’s 3.2 million Muslims put down deeper roots, they are no longer willing to worship furtively. A few of their projects — like a new mosque in the industrial city of Duisberg — have some of the grandeur of great European cathedrals. More than 1,000 people can pray under its soaring domes, which are meant to evoke the Blue Mosque in Istanbul.

“Whenever Muslims in Germany come out of their closets or hidden places, the controversy starts,” said Claus Leggewie, a political scientist at Giessen University who has written about mosques in Germany.

“The protests begin on technical issues, like parking problems and noise,” he said. “But it has a cultural bias. There is a nationalist minority, which opposes immigration and especially Muslim immigration.”

Right-wing politicians pander to these sentiments, Mr. Leggewie said, aided by the specter of Islamic terrorism and by a number of extremist mosques in Germany that have rattled even some open-minded Germans. Muslim groups aggravate the tensions, he said, by not talking to their non-Muslim neighbors.

The Munich dispute has an added edge because Bavaria is the most religious and conservative state in Germany. Pope Benedict XVI was born near here, and once served as archbishop of Munich. He delivered his now famous speech, in which he seemed to equate Islam with violence, at the nearby University of Regensburg.

“I understood his message,” Mrs. Schandl said, drinking a beer at the market where she used to work.

The mayor of Munich, Christian Ude, noted that Protestants had a tough time here, too, until two centuries ago. And then there was the burning of the Jewish synagogue by the Nazis in 1938. “The theme of houses of worship for religious minorities has a long history in Munich,” he said.

Munich has between 80,000 and 120,000 Muslims, the bulk of them from Turkey, who constitute nearly 10 percent of its population. The city’s first mosque was built in the 1960s on the outskirts of town, and caused little comment. A second was built in the 1990s, also outside the center, and drew some opposition from the Christian Social Union, the conservative party that has ruled Bavaria for decades.

The proposed mosque is to take the place of an Islamic prayer center that is now housed in an old furniture warehouse nearby. As the Turks see it, having a proper mosque is a sign of their maturity as an immigrant group in German society.

“Turks are now in their third generation in Germany,” said Metin Avci, the imam of the community in Sendling. “In the first generation, they only wanted to work to earn money. In the second and third generations, they developed a desire to worship in a more visible way.”

After a competition, the group chose a local architect, Walter Höfler, who came up with a contemporary design, which he says does not compete with that of the church.

The mosque’s minarets, he noted, would rise 134 feet — 46 feet short of the steeples of the church. Each would have a sign, spelling the word Allah, which could be lighted at night. They would also have balconies — decorative rather than functional, because under German law, a muezzin cannot broadcast a call to prayer from them.

The mosque would have the capacity to hold 250 men and 150 women. But Mr. Yildiz said it was also designed to accommodate non-Muslims for social and educational activities.

“We want to integrate into Germany,” said Mr. Yildiz, who is 40 and has lived here for 25 years. “We want to have a presentable place, where we can invite guests to drink tea.”

St. Korbinian and the local Protestant church both seem open to such a dialogue. They have steadfastly supported the mosque. But they say the debate has divided their members.

Wolfgang Neuner, a parish counselor at St. Korbinian, said parishioners told him they would not feel comfortable at prayer, knowing that they were near a mosque. Andrea Borger, the deacon at the Protestant church, got a letter asking, “What are you going to say when your daughter isn’t able to walk in this neighborhood without a head scarf?”

( scare-mongers exist exit everywhere. Building a mosque doesn't mean women in public places have to cover their sexy hair )
Such fears resonate with politicians. Speaking in a beer tent last April, Bavaria’s prime minister, Edmund Stoiber, pledged to block the mosque. His Christian Social Union invalidated the preliminary permit that was issued by the Munich government, which is run by a coalition of the Social Democratic Party and the Greens.

Mr. Ude, the mayor, who studied in Turkey as a young man and grew a mustache there that he still wears, said the conservatives were exploiting the issue before elections in 2008. He said he was confident that the courts would reinstate the building permit.

Fears about mosques are not entirely misplaced, he acknowledged. Munich’s oldest mosque is under police surveillance because of its radical tendencies. But Mr. Ude said the planned mosque — which is linked to Ditim, a moderate Turkish group — would pose no danger.

For Turkish residents of Munich, even those who are not religious, the mosque has become a fraught symbol. “This has been a very emotional debate for me,” said Sedef Ozakin, a female member of the city council. “I think, ‘Why should I integrate into this country when it doesn’t even recognize my religious beliefs?’ ”

[Extra Stout]

I realize that in some of your worlds all rich white protestants exercize bigotry and religious intolerance, but I thought this one post from the forum on the "anti" site was rather concise in stating what are probably more in line with the real issues:



Regardless if the webmaster of this site is a bit phobic and deals in generalizations (which he is and which he does), that does not nullify the very real and justifiable concerns listed above by the homeowners in the residential community.
I don't doubt the substantive issues -- the piece of property is at the back of a subdivision, with one way in and one way out, and is right by a reservoir -- but the bulk of the commenters simply were being derogatory towards Muslims.

This sort of problem happens a lot in Harris County because of the lack of land use restrictions. It usually does not make the news.

[sandman]

I don't doubt the substantive issues -- the piece of property is at the back of a subdivision, with one way in and one way out, and is right by a reservoir -- but the bulk of the commenters simply were being derogatory towards Muslims.

This sort of problem happens a lot in Harris County because of the lack of land use restrictions. It usually does not make the news.

Trust me, I know the zoning issues of Harris County all too well.

Yes, the bulk of the commentators on THAT web site were derogatory, but that should not imply that the bulk of the opposition is derogatory towards Mulsims. Did you see how many had signed the petition on the web site? 67. That is dealing in the generalizations just like the webmaster.

btw, tomorrow morning I am going to drive down Baker Road and see the place for myself.

[clambake]

Terrorist in Northern Ireland? By who's account? They're not criminals, they are crusaders my friend. When parliment makes ammendments that allow them to sieze whatever they deem, you're left with no other property but dignity. I wonder what you would call yourself in their shoes.

[DarkReign]

Terrorist in Northern Ireland? By who's account? They're not criminals, they are crusaders my friend. When parliment makes ammendments that allow them to sieze whatever they deem, you're left with no other property but dignity. I wonder what you would call yourself in their shoes.

Using your logic, one could justify terrorism worldwide.

Because you have been gravely wronged does not give you license to blow up buildings, riot and kill innocent people. Ever. For any reason.

[Yonivore]

Using your logic, one could justify terrorism worldwide.

Because you have been gravely wronged does not give you license to blow up buildings, riot and kill innocent people. Ever. For any reason.
Indeed. I wonder what clambake would have us do if Native Americans -- claiming such justification -- suddenly started strapping on bomb belts and blowing themselves up in the Mall of America 20 feet from where his daughter was picking up her order at the Food Court Chick-fil-A?

[clambake]

What you don't know about it is alot.

[DarkReign]

What you don't know about it is alot.

Honestly, CB, what is there to know? Protestants and Catholics. Ruling elite stomp all over the minority. Minority rises up and starts an indiscriminate terrorist organization.

Both are wrong, yet I am to feel sympathy or compassion for either?

Lets not even bound into the topic of condoning...

[clambake]

You left some things out. Religious leaders married with british politics and unbelievable acts of oppression. Savage acts.

[DarkReign]

You left some things out. Religious leaders married with british politics and unbelievable acts of oppression. Savage acts.

So the retaliation was acceptable?

[Yonivore]

So the retaliation was acceptable?
Particularly when it directly affected neither the religious leaders or British politicians with whom they had their grievance?

[clambake]

Yeah, right Yoni. You have now clue. We can discuss something else if you like.

[xrayzebra]

So Muslim law is supplanting constitutional law in the UK? Bullshit.

The riots in France? They were motivated by poverty, not religion.

The extreme regimes depicted on the news... :lmao

Terrorists are all Muslims!? Bullshit. Northern Ireland. The Balkans. Russia. The South Pacific. The KKK. Tibet even. There are and have been Christian and even Buddhist terrorists. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. To say ALL terrorists are Muslim, and thus imply that all Muslims are terrorists, is dangerous nonsense.

The tension comes from media-induced fearmongering and ignorance about Muslims. Yes, there are dangerous Muslim extremeists in the world. Do they account for the majority of Muslims? Not even close.

And you know how you fight extremeism (in any ideology)? You stop marginalising and persecuting people for their faith, you build bridges between communities, and assist the Muslim communities to teach moderation and tolerance. Reactions like this only increase the likelihood of turning those who are being persecuted towards more radical ideology.

Damn, I thought you were packing bags, getting ready for a trip to you
second home.

Hey, RNR, I want some of that global warming here in San Antonio. It
is 45 degrees and light sleet and it wouldn't surprise me a bit to wake
up to snow on the ground in the morning.

Now you want to explain to me how all that warming causes this.

And I am not trying to hijack the thread......okay!

[xrayzebra]

What you don't know about it is alot.

Clam, I have heard both sides of the argument. About the discrimination
against the Protestants and Catholics. But the really funny, not humorous,
things I cant understand is that this is occurring in a country that prides
itself on their acceptance of others. The problem was supposed to have
been solved in the 20's, but somewhere, as you say, the crusade was
re-ignited. Wonder why.

Could it be like the Muslim's are still fighting the crusades of past
centuries? And fueled by radicals who are trying to use past events
to further their own causes and power. Much like the race whores in
the United States.

[Yonivore]

So Muslim law is supplanting constitutional law in the UK? Bullshit.
Not yet, anyway...but, they're headed there if they don't pull their heads out of their asses.


The riots in France? They were motivated by poverty, not religion.
I am truly amazed that all -- yes, 100% -- of the poor in France just happen to be Muslim immigrants from Northern Africa.


The extreme regimes depicted on the news... :lmao

Terrorists are all Muslims!? Bullshit. Northern Ireland. The Balkans. Russia. The South Pacific. The KKK. Tibet even. There are and have been Christian and even Buddhist terrorists. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. To say ALL terrorists are Muslim, and thus imply that all Muslims are terrorists, is dangerous nonsense.

The tension comes from media-induced fearmongering and ignorance about Muslims. Yes, there are dangerous Muslim extremeists in the world. Do they account for the majority of Muslims? Not even close.
Do they account for the majority of terrorists? Absolutely.


And you know how you fight extremeism (in any ideology)? You stop marginalising and persecuting people for their faith, you build bridges between communities, and assist the Muslim communities to teach moderation and tolerance. Reactions like this only increase the likelihood of turning those who are being persecuted towards more radical ideology.
Meanwhile, I can just see how easy our overtures would be, given how tolerant (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,234817,00.html#) these people are of their own "infidels"


MOGADISHU, Somalia — Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days.
Ah, yes. everything will be nice and peaceful if we’ll just submit to the islamonutjobs around the world.

Religion of peace, my ass. More like the religion of cut you to pieces.

You know, RnR, you suffer from the same disease of all the peaceful "Muslims" of the world. You think you can step up on the soap box and preach to me about being tolerant and understanding of a religious group when they won't bother to condemn those, in their own religion, who have hijacked that religion.

It causes me to wonder if there truly are peaceful Muslims.

[sandman]

Much like the race whores in
the United States.

What are you saying? That there are people in this country who use race to generate issues or excuse social behaviors? :dramaquee

[xrayzebra]

^^And do a little shaking down of businesses. Yeah that is exactly what I'm saying.

[Yonivore]

What are you saying? That there are people in this country who use race to generate issues or excuse social behaviors? :dramaquee
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aaworld/reference/images/jesse_jackson.jpg
Oh no!

http://sitemason.vanderbilt.edu/files/eZAR56/030415_al_sharpton.jpg/main.jpg
Of course not!

[clambake]

It's not that complicated Ray. For instance............You're at a meeting with your fellow brethren to discuss possible options of compromise with your adversaries. Just brainstorming, throwing it out there, weighing give and take approaches. Suddenly, some sick fuck (with the help of brit troops and weapons) crashes a car through the wall and drops a couple of grenades in your lap.

Do you think we gave a shit about religion?

[xrayzebra]

You said it. A sicko. I doubt the later part of the statement, help of the brit troops.

[clambake]

I guess that part was left out when you say you've heard both sides of the argument.