Nash: 3 time MVP??? [Archive] - SpursTalk.com Forums

spurs_fan_in_exile

12-12-2006, 11:56 AM

Nope. This might actually be the year that he's the most deserving of it, but he's looking at an uphill battle for two reasons.

1. He's looking sharp now but he'll run out of gas or get hurt at some point. The last couple of years I think the few games he missed actually helped his chances because the Suns looked so lost without him, but it's becoming more and more likely that the next injury he gets will sideline him enough for people to break out the "you're only valuable to your team if you're on the floor" line. Assuming he stays healthy and at this level is just not an assumption that I can reasonably make.

2. The MVP race is much deeper this year. He not only has to overcome the fact that Lebron and others are having great years, but the fact that those guys have the full force of the hype machines behind them. Most of the preseason MVP talk centered on Lebron and that alone will probably be enough to get him some votes regardless of how he plays.

Texas_Ranger

12-12-2006, 12:08 PM

In your dreams.

cheguevara

12-12-2006, 12:20 PM

1. He's looking sharp now but he'll run out of gas or get hurt at some point.

that's what ppl said last year, and the year before.

the only reason he won't get it is cause they need some new blood.

MrChug

12-12-2006, 01:02 PM

Count it. If not...who is??

themvp

12-12-2006, 01:06 PM

^MVP in December?!

spurs_fan_in_exile

12-12-2006, 02:16 PM

that's what ppl said last year, and the year before.

the only reason he won't get it is cause they need some new blood.

To a certain extent he did. He had hamstring and back issues in the spring and they were limiting his minutes down the stretch, IIRC. With the Clippers and Lakers looking strong the Suns may not have that luxury this year.

But you are right about voters looking for new blood. The "wow" factor has worn off for Nash and the Suns. He got the first MVP because of the incredible turn around, the second because people thought they'd be in the toilet without Amare. Now I think anything less than a division championship may be seen as a disapointment.

baseline bum

12-12-2006, 02:20 PM

There's no way. To win it 3 times in a row without a ring would be a joke.

DarkReign

12-12-2006, 02:20 PM

Nash is having his most deserving year (so far), yet he will fall short for no other reason than he already won it. Twice. In a row.

Thats why he probably shouldnt have won it before, based solely on this sort of performance that will go unnoticed in the history books.

Winnipeg_Spur

12-12-2006, 03:20 PM

Duncan has comparable numbers to Nash, his team is on pace for a better record (not that it really matters in December) and by the way, he actually plays defence. If someone is going to get their third MVP, why not Duncan instead?

bdictjames

12-12-2006, 04:06 PM

Nash wins season MVPs, but not championships. Better yet, not the Western Finals. Tsktsktsk

dirk4mvp

12-12-2006, 04:27 PM

He could, but I doubt he will.

MrChug

12-12-2006, 04:34 PM

He could, but I doubt he will.

I think I know who's NOT gonna be MVP^^^^ :lmao

mavsfan1000

12-12-2006, 04:35 PM

Once again everyone is concerned about Nash's stats. Look how much he gives up to opposing guards. Jason Kidd for example. Doesn't anyone care about defense?

dirk4mvp

12-12-2006, 04:39 PM

I think I know who's NOT gonna be MVP^^^^ :lmao

Who?

td4mvp21

12-12-2006, 04:42 PM

It better not happen.

resistanze

12-12-2006, 05:48 PM

Why not, they already gave it to him twice in a row, why not three. Considering I expect him to keep these numbers up for the next couple of seasons, we should have our first 5-in-a-row MVP.

MrChug

12-12-2006, 05:59 PM

Who?

Let's put it this way...ever think about changing your name to "dirk0mvp's"??

dirk4mvp

12-12-2006, 06:08 PM

Let's put it this way...ever think about changing your name to "dirk0mvp's"??

No, not really.

Some people said "Kerry4pres", but that didnt' happen.

:angel

JMarkJohns

12-12-2006, 06:11 PM

Once again everyone is concerned about Nash's stats. Look how much he gives up to opposing guards. Jason Kidd for example. Doesn't anyone care about defense?

That's very true, yet it is Kidd who's bandied about as the best defender of that position and happened to give up 42 points and over a dozen assists that very same game.

Defense from your PG is a luxery, not a necessity. It's like being a mobile QB. It's nice, but the first job is to control the offense and get the team involved.

That's what Nash does better than anyone of late.

Still, I do not think he'll win it. I think he was one of several deserving candidates the last two years, and think him the same again this year, but I cannot imagine the media voting him a third MVP. It's unheard of. He's a great PG, and a very good overall player, but even I cannot logically defend a three-peat.

lefty

12-12-2006, 06:12 PM

1 .Steve nash is my favorite for the MVP this season ; of course, having a healthy Amare helps obviously (he destroyed Dwight Howard yesterday)

2.This brings the question : if both Nash and Amare keep playing that well, Suns will have 2 MVP candidates ; if the Suns end the season with a better record than last year, it would be because Amare's return (if he stays healthy of course)

3. If the Lakers finish the season in the top 4 (West), Kobe could be a serious candidate as well ; he is really maturing as a leader, he is a better teammate, and is unstoppable when his team needs him

SirChaz

12-12-2006, 06:14 PM

Once again everyone is concerned about Nash's stats. Look how much he gives up to opposing guards. Jason Kidd for example. Doesn't anyone care about defense?

Like who?

Nash doesn't even guard opposing PG most of the time. When they play scoring guards like Iverson, Parker, or Bibby they are usually covered by Marion.

Last Thursday Marion was guarding Kidd at least half the time.

It is way early to be talking MVP but Nash is having his best season statistically so far. Instead of breaking down as people have been predicting he is getting better.

RonMexico

12-12-2006, 06:17 PM

Once again everyone is concerned about Nash's stats. Look how much he gives up to opposing guards. Jason Kidd for example. Doesn't anyone care about defense?

He gives up those numbers to Jason Kidd, yet scores more, dishes out one less assist and hits the big shots to WIN THE GAME!! The point of an MVP is whether his team is winning - not airballing 3pters when you're being guarded by Matt Harpring (*cough*). I'm not lobbying for a 3rd MVP - I thought it was great when he won the first two, but there is so much bitching about how he "doesn't play defense" (Nash has averaged 1.3 steals per game over this streak), but what about the people that can't guard him?? Jason Kidd gave up 42 pts and 13 assists, but you're complaining that Nash gave up 38 to Kidd? What about Dirk giving up 30+ to Boozer??

There's more to defense than what your opponent scores. Of course, Nash can be posted up inside and he's not the quickest on-ball defender in the world, but he plays passing lanes and forces point guards to go to their off hands. Also, in this new NBA of fast-breaks and "can't touch the perimeter guys" (which everyone on this board bitches about), Nash plays smart defense where he doesn't get in foul trouble (important because he is the most valuable to this team), and he will often realize when his player has beaten him and allow a layup, only to jet out early and a quick bucket within 3 seconds at the other end.

Just because he doesn't play the slap-at-the-ball defense like Dirk doesn't mean he's any less valuable. Oh, and I forgot what a great defender Jason Terry is...

Billy Cobham

12-12-2006, 06:22 PM

If he continues at this pace he will win MVP again without a doubt.

RonMexico

12-12-2006, 06:22 PM

Winnipeg_Spur

12-12-2006, 06:54 PM

Suns are a Raja Bell FT away from being on the same pace with the Spurs, pal...
That's not really my main point. All I'm saying is that Duncan and Nash are very close in the two categories mentioned in the intial post (stats and winning record, which is dumb to talk about in December but I digress) so couldn't the fact that Duncan impacts the game defensively, while Nash does not, be looked at as a bit of a tiebreaker in terms of their MVP chances?

DisgruntledLionFan#54,927

12-12-2006, 07:14 PM

This is Kobe's MVP to lose IMO.

Trainwreck2100

12-12-2006, 07:17 PM

seet God no

1Parker1

12-12-2006, 07:51 PM

There's no way. To win it 3 times in a row without a ring would be a joke.

Winning it 3 times in a row without ever taking your team to the Finals, even, would be a joke.

1Parker1

12-12-2006, 07:52 PM

This is Kobe's MVP to lose IMO.

If Lakers can keep it up, then perhaps. Though I have a feeling Lakers will eventually hit a slump and revert back to their old selves. I think this year it's going to be between Lebron and Dirk.

ducks

12-12-2006, 07:53 PM

dirk4mvp

12-12-2006, 07:55 PM

:ihit

:nope both of those choices suck

:lol

What would you do if LeBron won it?

:lmao

DisgruntledLionFan#54,927

12-12-2006, 08:21 PM

If Lakers can keep it up, then perhaps. Though I have a feeling Lakers will eventually hit a slump and revert back to their old selves. I think this year it's going to be between Lebron and Dirk.

Throw in Howard as the dark horse.

If I had to pick one player to start a franchise, it would come from the pool of Howard, Kobe, Lebron and TD. I'd rank them like this: TD, Kobe, Howard then Lebron.

1Parker1

12-12-2006, 08:38 PM

:ihit

:nope both of those choices suck

:lol How about Lebron, Dirk, and Manu? :angel

1Parker1

12-12-2006, 08:40 PM

Throw in Howard as the dark horse.

If I had to pick one player to start a franchise, it would come from the pool of Howard, Kobe, Lebron and TD. I'd rank them like this: TD, Kobe, Howard then Lebron.

Howard's great, but I'm not sure how far the Magic will go. They'll make the playoffs just off the fact that the East is very weak. I saw him against the Sixers last week and the guy is amazing, his rebounding is money and his shooting and passing skills are above average as well. He reminds me a bit like a young TD. Howard + Jameer Nelson is going to be an exciting young duo to watch.

SirChaz

12-13-2006, 12:59 AM

Last year if Duncan was healthier or Kobe's team was better they may have won it.

I expect the same this year.

Dirk was deserving, Nash said he would have voted for him last year.

RonMexico

12-13-2006, 02:06 AM

Dirk is never deserving - let's not kid ourselves here... Nash was just being nice and trying to share with everyone - even his less-than-talented-can't-win-former-teammate

ajh18

12-13-2006, 02:27 AM

Dark horse MVP candidates depending on their teams' final records:

Yao: PPG 25.5 | RPG 9.5 | BPG 2.0 on 53% shooting
If Houston can get around 55 wins (although less likely with an injured TMac).

Boozer: PPG 22.4 | RPG 12.2 | 3.1 APG on 56.6% shooting
If the Jazz get a top-four seed.

-Even though Dirk's stats may be actually be better, I think that given his team's previous success he'll only win it if the Mavs are the 1 seed in the West.

RonMexico

12-13-2006, 02:29 AM

Boozer has potential - only Chinese voters will vote for Yao (which is why he's an All-Star starter every season)

Sense

12-13-2006, 02:32 AM

Nash won't fucking win it again...

RonMexico

12-13-2006, 02:34 AM

Nash won't fucking win it again...

You've said that 3 times now - thanks for the fucking insight... provide something more than just a random opinion... we all don't think he will win it, but it's sad that he won't in his best statistical year so far.

Sense

12-13-2006, 02:38 AM

You've said that 3 times now - thanks for the fucking insight... provide something more than just a random opinion... we all don't think he will win it, but it's sad that he won't in his best statistical year so far.

What's the point of this post anyways?

It's not an opinion... It's a fact.

The other 1 time I said he wouldn't win it was an opinion....

RonMexico

12-13-2006, 03:13 AM

What's the point of this post anyways?

It's not an opinion... It's a fact.

The other 1 time I said he wouldn't win it was an opinion....

#1 - not a fact... still your opinion until the votes come out in May

#2 - You even admit to repeating yourself

#3 - You used the term "fuckin" so I wanted to retort with similar language

Sense

12-13-2006, 05:20 PM

#1 - not a fact... still your opinion until the votes come out in May

#2 - You even admit to repeating yourself

#3 - You used the term "fuckin" so I wanted to retort with similar language

You're bias, and you're certainly acting like a homer.. the fact that you're a PHX fan makes this all funny.

And it's called sarcasm....

so how about you stfu and try not to be such a homer all the time while trying to hide it.

RonMexico

12-13-2006, 06:04 PM

You're bias, and you're certainly acting like a homer.. the fact that you're a PHX fan makes this all funny.

And it's called sarcasm....

so how about you stfu and try not to be such a homer all the time while trying to hide it.

Wow - you use the term homer twice... coming from a Spurs fan I'll take that with a grain of salt... good thing you're pretty fucking stupid (I'm basing this on your broad range of posts on this site) or else I might be more offended.

Everyone on this board knows I stand up for the Spurs and the Suns (never the Mavs), and I stand up for Nash and Duncan and Ginobili (but I hate Brent Barry and his propensity to go off on the Suns), but when you come in and say "Nash won't fuckin' win it again" as your complete argument, it pisses me off enough to retaliate with something equally asinine. That's not being a homer, it's simply being a poster who demands more from fuckbags who offer no insight.

Sense

12-13-2006, 06:06 PM

Wow - you use the term homer twice... coming from a Spurs fan I'll take that with a grain of salt... good thing you're pretty fucking stupid (I'm basing this on your broad range of posts on this site) or else I might be more offended.

Everyone on this board knows I stand up for the Spurs and the Suns (never the Mavs), and I stand up for Nash and Duncan and Ginobili (but I hate Brent Barry and his propensity to go off on the Suns), but when you come in and say "Nash won't fuckin' win it again" as your complete argument, it pisses me off enough to retaliate with something equally asinine. That's not being a homer, it's simply being a poster who demands more from fuckbags who offer no insight.

When people post here, they don't post with the intention of making an argument by your standards....

Not everyone here posts what you want to hear you know...

dirk4mvp

12-13-2006, 06:52 PM

Dirk is never deserving - let's not kid ourselves here... Nash was just being nice and trying to share with everyone - even his less-than-talented-can't-win-former-teammate

And tell us why he can't win mvp.

baseline bum

12-13-2006, 06:52 PM

This is Kobe's MVP to lose IMO.

Nah. If he couldn't win it last year putting up 35.3 a game and scoring 81 while leading LA to that turnaround from the disasterous season before, he'll never get it. The MVP is really becoming a joke. Bryant should have run away with the MVP vote last year, but the media was in love with Nash... just like Shaq was easily the MVP in 2001 and Tim in 1999, but the media had such hard-ons for Iverson and Malone.

RonMexico

12-13-2006, 06:54 PM

When people post here, they don't post with the intention of making an argument by your standards....

Not everyone here posts what you want to hear you know...

Ok, you're dumber than I thought... I guess you were schooled by a Texas public school, and your teachers let you write 1-sentence essays with no evidence to back it up.

I'm not saying I have standards - I'm just saying you need to bring more to the table than ripping on my team's point guard with nothing to back it up. I'm not saying he will win it again, but I entertain well-thought out reasons why he won't from haters such as you.

RonMexico

12-13-2006, 06:55 PM

And tell us why he can't win mvp.

I don't have that kind of time. But finishing 3rd in the voting every year should give him a clear indication that shooting 40% from 3 and 90% from the FT line while averaging over 25 per game isn't going to get it done.

tlongII

12-13-2006, 07:05 PM

If Nash keeps up his current pace he will win MVP. No doubt about it. He is, without a doubt, the most valuable player to a team in the NBA. Take him off the Suns and they don't sniff the playoffs.

baseline bum

12-13-2006, 08:01 PM

RonMexico

12-13-2006, 08:10 PM

No fucking way. He's not better than Bryant, or James, or Duncan, or Garnett, or Wade. No way in hell does he deserve a third MVP. You win the MVP, you better be the best player in the league or the player that wins the big one for his team. Nash is neither.

I'm glad you said this because now we have a chance to see how well the Lakers do without Lamar Odom... remember, they are undefeated when Kobe has been out...

RonMexico

12-13-2006, 08:11 PM

LeBron and Garnett have won how many "big ones"?

AZLouis

12-13-2006, 10:08 PM

LeBron and Garnett have won how many "big ones"?

As many as Steve Nash?

:donkey

AZLouis

12-13-2006, 10:16 PM

I don't have that kind of time. But finishing 3rd in the voting every year should give him a clear indication that shooting 40% from 3 and 90% from the FT line while averaging over 25 per game isn't going to get it done.

If those aren't MVP like numbers, what are you looking for? Don't forget to add in his 9 boards, 3 assists, and BTW it's 26 ppg. Don't forget his team beat the Suns in the WCF and they had a better record last year too.

And please don't give me that "they were hurt" BS either. Amare and KT were hurt before the trade deadline giving the Suns ample time to make a move to shore up the frontcourt. Also KT was cleared for play prior to the Dallas series and played 1 game while suiting up and sitting the rest.

And to the reason I wanted to post in the 1st place, Yao isn't an all-star every year because of his heritage.

That argument may have held water his rookie year. But Yao has been one of the best centers in the league over the past few years. Now he is the best center in the league hands down. Not to mention that Yao has shown steady improvement and progress in his game every year in his 5 year career.

RonMexico

12-13-2006, 10:38 PM

If those aren't MVP like numbers, what are you looking for? Don't forget to add in his 9 boards, 3 assists, and BTW it's 26 ppg. Don't forget his team beat the Suns in the WCF and they had a better record last year too.

And please don't give me that "they were hurt" BS either. Amare and KT were hurt before the trade deadline giving the Suns ample time to make a move to shore up the frontcourt. Also KT was cleared for play prior to the Dallas series and played 1 game while suiting up and sitting the rest.

And to the reason I wanted to post in the 1st place, Yao isn't an all-star every year because of his heritage.

That argument may have held water his rookie year. But Yao has been one of the best centers in the league over the past few years. Now he is the best center in the league hands down. Not to mention that Yao has shown steady improvement and progress in his game every year in his 5 year career.

Dirk is only averaging 24.6 ppg this year, not 26, pal... and my point is that there is more to getting an MVP than just numbers, which is why Nash has won it the past two seasons and one of the reasons why Bill Russell and Larry Bird both won 3 in a row as well. This is because they were hard workers who did more "little things" to help their teams win than just throwing numbers up there.

That douche's argument was that you either have to be the best player in the league or win a title (which doesn't hold any weight because the voting occurs before the playoffs begin). Well, Wade and Bryant have won titles, so that leaves Garnett and LeBron as the "best player in the game" (there can only be one of them...). It's just another classic case of not understanding that the award is for the player "most valuable" to his team, which in the Lakers' case would be Lamar Odom and not Kobe Bryant. And in the Suns' case, it is Steve Nash. Even though Nash hasn't been in the Finals, I doubt he would have choked for 4 straight games like Dirk (and if you ever watch Dirk he never does those "little things" the voters like to see).

Yao still is an All-Star starter because of his heritage - that is voted on by the fans, in case you didn't know that. Since 2003, the Chinese voters (they print the ballots in Mandarin, by the way) have been voting non-stop for Yao, both in the US and overseas. You probably said that Grant Hill (who was voted as a starter in 2001) should have still been an all-star even though he only played in 4 games that year and was injured at the all-star break. Fan voting for all-star games is a crapshoot because people usually vote for the name and not the season(s) each player is having. There is no doubt in my mind that Yao would be on the All-Star team any of these past few years based on how good of a center he is, but he would be on as a reserve.

It wasn't because Kurt Thomas was hurt that they lost to the Mavs, but rather because Raja Bell tore his calf and sat out a couple of games and was not even close to 70% in the ones he played. Kurt Thomas didn't play because D'Antoni probably didn't want to mess with the chemistry they had been working on starting in March when Thomas went down.

Kermit

12-13-2006, 11:49 PM

"Dirk is never deserving - let's not kid ourselves here... Nash was just being nice and trying to share with everyone - even his less-than-talented-can't-win-former-teammate"

isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? what has nash ever won? and to say that the suns wouldn't make the playoffs without nash is idiotic. they certainly wouldn't be as good, but they would still get in. as it is, they have no chance of winning because they lack the fundamental prerequisite, defense.

DisgruntledLionFan#54,927

12-13-2006, 11:54 PM

RonMexico

12-14-2006, 12:20 AM

Actually, for a long time, the MVP was the chosen from the two teams with the two best records in the NBA. Usually, it was between the best players on their respective teams.

And did you seriously say Lamar Odom was more valuable to the Lakers than Kobe? That's like saying Marion, who does all the little things that Nash doesn't or can't, is more valuable than Nash.

Oh, wait...

Lakers are undefeated without Kobe... let's see their record without Odom - if it's .500 or less, then I'll go ahead and say I'm right... and Dirk is not deserving because he's just one part of a whole team (Terry, Howard, Dampier) that they need to actually contend for a title.

Bob Lanier

12-14-2006, 12:28 AM

Lakers are undefeated without Kobe... let's see their record without Odom - if it's .500 or less, then I'll go ahead and say I'm right...
Never mind the context, here's the blatant partisanship!

DisgruntledLionFan#54,927

12-14-2006, 12:46 AM

RonMexico

12-14-2006, 01:00 AM

The first part is a flawed argument.

The second part I'll reword for you: ...and Nash is not deserving because he's just one part of a whole team (Amare, Marion, Bell) that they need to actually make the Finals.

I've never said he should or will win another MVP. But he is still the most important part on that team and that's why he's still playing 37 mins per night because the offense goes stagnant when he's out of the game. He's singlehandedly kept them in nearly half these games on the winning streak, while Kobe's ball-hogging in the 4th quarter tonight completely took the Lakers out of their rhythm.

RonMexico

12-14-2006, 01:02 AM

Never mind the context, here's the blatant partisanship!

How? That doesn't make sense... they've beat 3 quality opponents when Kobe has been out... the triangle offense works much better when he is out of the lineup and Odom and Walton are playing well. Any contribution out of Kwame Brown is a bonus. Kobe is getting better as a leader and is a far better leader than Dirk ever will be.

dave

12-14-2006, 01:09 AM

Miami Heat coach Pat Riley has nothing but high praise for Steve Nash, the NBA's two-time reigning MVP.

"He may be the best player in the league," Riley said.

RonMexico

12-14-2006, 01:21 AM

Oh God - where are the Pistons, Bulls, and Mavs fans to say that Pat Riley doesn't know shit?? Come on out - we're waiting for you.

Bob Lanier

12-14-2006, 01:47 AM

Oh god, oh god, oh god, oh god yes yes yes yes yes for the white man!

I'm sure his agent thought that was a very nice thing to say.

ponky

12-14-2006, 02:00 AM

Lakers are undefeated without Kobe... let's see their record without Odom - if it's .500 or less, then I'll go ahead and say I'm right... and Dirk is not deserving because he's just one part of a whole team (Terry, Howard, Dampier) that they need to actually contend for a title.

Are you fucking serious or are you just an idiot? The Lakers have won THREE games this season without Kobe, not exactly a record number of games. let's look at those games.

1. 10/31 against the Suns - AMARE ONLY PLAYED 11 MINUTES AND HAD 6 POINTS. hmmmm, i wonder if this has something to do with the lakers win.

2. 11/01 against Golden State - sure, I'll give you this ONE game

3. 12/08 against the Hawks - Lamar Odom played 41 minutes and had a HUGE SIX POINTS!!! SIX as in 6!!!

So basically you're using one good game as evidence, awesome!

RonMexico

12-14-2006, 02:26 AM

Are you fucking serious or are you just an idiot? The Lakers have won THREE games this season without Kobe, not exactly a record number of games. let's look at those games.

1. 10/31 against the Suns - AMARE ONLY PLAYED 11 MINUTES AND HAD 6 POINTS. hmmmm, i wonder if this has something to do with the lakers win.

2. 11/01 against Golden State - sure, I'll give you this ONE game

3. 12/08 against the Hawks - Lamar Odom played 41 minutes and had a HUGE SIX POINTS!!! SIX as in 6!!!

So basically you're using one good game as evidence, awesome!

No, I'm using as evidence that the Lakers are 3-18 since the 04-05 season without Lamar Odom and most of those WITH Kobe. So, I guess you're giving the Lakers the benefit of the doubt for winning the game because Amare only had 6 points in that game, but not the Suns for losing it (based on your asinine post in the Spurs forum)? That makes sense.

And you know why the Lakers lose without Odom? They give up an average of 11 more points per game in those 21 without him, so his impact may be more on the defensive end, rather than scoring just 6 points. I know as a Mavs fan, points (especially how much Dirk scores) matter most to you, but there are more things that happen on the basketball court, sweetheart.

RonMexico

12-14-2006, 02:28 AM

Oh god, oh god, oh god, oh god yes yes yes yes yes for the white man!

I'm sure his agent thought that was a very nice thing to say.

You make the least sense on this board. White men such as Steve Kerr have been a major key in your championships... oh yeah, and Kirk Heinrich is your current PG.

ponky

12-14-2006, 02:38 AM

No, I'm using as evidence that the Lakers are 3-18 since the 04-05 season without Lamar Odom and most of those WITH Kobe. So, I guess you're giving the Lakers the benefit of the doubt for winning the game because Amare only had 6 points in that game, but not the Suns for losing it (based on your asinine post in the Spurs forum)? That makes sense.

And you know why the Lakers lose without Odom? They give up an average of 11 more points per game in those 21 without him, so his impact may be more on the defensive end, rather than scoring just 6 points. I know as a Mavs fan, points (especially how much Dirk scores) matter most to you, but there are more things that happen on the basketball court, sweetheart.

You do realize most of those games were actually IN the 04-05 season right? Kobe only missed two games last season and I know the Lakers lost one of those games, not sure about the other. Maybe you should also check out the stats of the other players sans Odom and see how different they were from 04-05 and last season/current season. Why the hell am I even arguing this point, it's about as dumb as saying D'Antoni's a better coach than Phil Jackson.

RonMexico

12-14-2006, 02:52 AM

You do realize most of those games were actually IN the 04-05 season right? Kobe only missed two games last season and I know the Lakers lost one of those games, not sure about the other. Maybe you should also check out the stats of the other players sans Odom and see how different they were from 04-05 and last season/current season. Why the hell am I even arguing this point, it's about as dumb as saying D'Antoni's a better coach than Phil Jackson.

I'm not even getting into coaching battles. Phil is a great coach, but HE was extremely concerned about Odom going down. Odom is one of the most vital parts of this team and if you can't realize that, then don't bitch when Josh Howard goes down again. Because I'll just bring up your stupid point right here that a long, large, quick small foward who can finish at the rim, rebound, and hit the outside shot, isn't valuable to a team's success... if there wasn't such an example of an Odom-like player (minus the fact that Howard can't pass as well as Odom) on your team, this wouldn't be so easy.

Odom makes the triangle (that's the offense that Phil runs, honey) click and when he's not in, you can't trust Kwame Brown, Andrew Bynum, Ronny Turiaf, or Luke Walton to run it in his absence. Hence, everyone starts standing around while Kobe jacks up shots like they did towards the end of the game tonight. So what if "most of those games were in the 04-05 season" as you graciously point out? Odom's playing some of his best ball in the last 4 years, so he's even MORE valuable than he was back then.

ponky

12-14-2006, 03:07 AM

I'm not even getting into coaching battles. Phil is a great coach, but HE was extremely concerned about Odom going down. Odom is one of the most vital parts of this team and if you can't realize that, then don't bitch when Josh Howard goes down again. Because I'll just bring up your stupid point right here that a long, large, quick small foward who can finish at the rim, rebound, and hit the outside shot, isn't valuable to a team's success... if there wasn't such an example of an Odom-like player (minus the fact that Howard can't pass as well as Odom) on your team, this wouldn't be so easy.

Odom makes the triangle (that's the offense that Phil runs, honey) click and when he's not in, you can't trust Kwame Brown, Andrew Bynum, Ronny Turiaf, or Luke Walton to run it in his absence. Hence, everyone starts standing around while Kobe jacks up shots like they did towards the end of the game tonight. So what if "most of those games were in the 04-05 season" as you graciously point out? Odom's playing some of his best ball in the last 4 years, so he's even MORE valuable than he was back then.

Who's bitching? I believe we were 6-1 at the start of our win streak with JHo out of the lineup.
:nope

RonMexico

12-14-2006, 03:17 AM

Who's bitching? I believe we were 6-1 at the start of our win streak with JHo out of the lineup.
:nope

You made the mistake of not looking at the fluff schedule you had when he was down... Memphis (twice), Chicago (during the headband controversy period), Charlotte, Portland, Minnesota, and Toronto? Not the best of competition there... you were so swift to call out the Suns' "weaker" schedules and quality of victories while ignoring the huge dearth of talent on the oppoents during the stretch without "J. Ho." Hell, Howard was out against the Suns, so you do have that victory, but that's about it.

RonMexico

12-14-2006, 03:18 AM

Taking a page from your book, "talk to me when he's out against some of the 'elite' teams."

Hopefully, he'll go down in the playoffs so I can quote you every time someone on this board complains about it.

ponky

12-14-2006, 03:28 AM

You made the mistake of not looking at the fluff schedule you had when he was down... Memphis (twice), Chicago (during the headband controversy period), Charlotte, Portland, Minnesota, and Toronto? Not the best of competition there... you were so swift to call out the Suns' "weaker" schedules and quality of victories while ignoring the huge dearth of talent on the oppoents during the stretch without "J. Ho." Hell, Howard was out against the Suns, so you do have that victory, but that's about it.

LOL, you sound like my bf...he always has an *exception rule* to everything when his statements are proven false. Anyway, you made the statement, I countered it and you just added a "but" so I'm done here...there will ALWAYS be a "but" statement if you want to prolong a debate.

ponky

12-14-2006, 03:29 AM

TDMVPDPOY

12-14-2006, 03:52 AM

i do realise that nash plays in scrub minutes also :(

Sense

12-14-2006, 04:05 AM

Ok, you're dumber than I thought... I guess you were schooled by a Texas public school, and your teachers let you write 1-sentence essays with no evidence to back it up.
This seems funny to me....

I'm not saying I have standards - I'm just saying you need to bring more to the table than ripping on my team's point guard with nothing to back it up. I'm not saying he will win it again, but I entertain well-thought out reasons why he won't from haters such as you.

First of all, I never ripped on your team's point guard... I actually respect Nash, but to say that he's going to win it for a third time is just too much. Sure, he's the only point guard that gets his whole team involved for the whole game, but he's not doing enough to win the MVP this many times. I respect Nash, but I don't think he's THAT good.. the guy can dish and shoot... but that's as far as it goes. There are ALOT of contenders out there, more this year than any other... if he wins it again with no real good reason to back it up other than stats... it's just not doing it for me.

His team is still winning... Would this mean that Tim should be getting his 4th straight? I mean the Spurs have been a very good winning contending club for years now.. with injuries and such.. Nash just doesn't have a very good excuse to get the MVP this year..

Nash even acknowledges all of this....

RonMexico

12-14-2006, 04:20 AM

This seems funny to me....

First of all, I never ripped on your team's point guard... I actually respect Nash, but to say that he's going to win it for a third time is just too much. Sure, he's the only point guard that gets his whole team involved for the whole game, but he's not doing enough to win the MVP this many times. I respect Nash, but I don't think he's THAT good.. the guy can dish and shoot... but that's as far as it goes. There are ALOT of contenders out there, more this year than any other... if he wins it again with no real good reason to back it up other than stats... it's just not doing it for me.

His team is still winning... Would this mean that Tim should be getting his 4th straight? I mean the Spurs have been a very good winning contending club for years now.. with injuries and such.. Nash just doesn't have a very good excuse to get the MVP this year..

Nash even acknowledges all of this....

My point is though, if I came on here and said something like, "Duncan won't fuckin win it again..." that wouldn't be fair to you or anyone else that posts on this board, would it? You (or some Spurs fan on here) would probably be offended and ask that I provide some more insight/evidence to back up my opinion.

That's all I wanted to get from you, and you finally provided it with that argument above - thanks.

Although, I am wondering how Tim will get his "4th straight" MVP when Nash has the last two trophies...

RonMexico

12-14-2006, 04:21 AM

LOL, you sound like my bf...he always has an *exception rule* to everything when his statements are proven false. Anyway, you made the statement, I countered it and you just added a "but" so I'm done here...there will ALWAYS be a "but" statement if you want to prolong a debate.

What are you talking about? Mavs fans have always been upset when Howard went down... how can a weak schedule be ok for the Mavs, but bad for the Suns when looking at records/winning streaks?

RonMexico

12-14-2006, 04:21 AM

i do realise that nash plays in scrub minutes also :(

What? That's usually when they blow a lead and he has to come in and provide some kind of offense.

JMarkJohns

12-14-2006, 08:46 AM

If you can show me where the prerequesite qualifications for MVP include "making the finals" and "being the best player in the League", then I'll never again post on this topic. Facts are, as far as I know, anyway, that neither factor in. The MVP award is a regular season honor awarded to a specific player, for his value to his specific team, for a specific season.

With all that said, however, it's only in justification for his previous two awards, and for someone like LeBron or maybe even the Shaq-less Kobe; great players who may not make the Finals (again, in Kobe's case).

Think about this. Peyton Manning has two MVPs of the NFL, no Super Bowl appearances. Alex Rodriguez has two MVPs, no World Series appearances.

Most of the time the best player ends up with the best stats on the best team in the League. It won't always happen.

Nash will not win the award again. I'm nearly 100% certain of it. But, he's been the most important player on a team that has not only made two consecutive Western Conference Finals, but who's style of play has led to a League-wide revival of offensive skill/gunnery.

I've already argued this previously, and won't get suckered in again, but, for this final post on the topic, I believe many here have a flawed view of what the MVP award is, or at least should be.

I do think the award is either Kobe's, LeBron's or Wade's to lose.

Pistons < Spurs

01-12-2007, 01:17 AM

could it happen again?

sabar

01-12-2007, 12:45 PM

cornbread

01-12-2007, 12:59 PM

:clap

So many people have such a flawed view of what the MVP actually means. This isn't an award to the best scorer. This doesn't go to the stat padders. It is to the player who, without them, their team would be nowhere.

This should disqualify people like Tim and Dirk immediately. Both the Spurs and Mavs can and have won games without their star players. It's a good sign of a semi-deep team.

Uh, so it should go to the best superstar that is surrounded by the lowest level of talent?

peskypesky

01-12-2007, 01:23 PM

Nash should win it again, IMO.

itzsoweezee

01-12-2007, 03:16 PM

i'm hoping arenas wins out and i'm hoping that nash doesn't win it this year because of the historic implications: because no way in hell nash is better than oscar or as good as magic.

mavs>spurs2

01-12-2007, 03:31 PM

He gives up those numbers to Jason Kidd, yet scores more, dishes out one less assist and hits the big shots to WIN THE GAME!! The point of an MVP is whether his team is winning - not airballing 3pters when you're being guarded by Matt Harpring (*cough*). I'm not lobbying for a 3rd MVP - I thought it was great when he won the first two, but there is so much bitching about how he "doesn't play defense" (Nash has averaged 1.3 steals per game over this streak), but what about the people that can't guard him?? Jason Kidd gave up 42 pts and 13 assists, but you're complaining that Nash gave up 38 to Kidd? What about Dirk giving up 30+ to Boozer??

There's more to defense than what your opponent scores. Of course, Nash can be posted up inside and he's not the quickest on-ball defender in the world, but he plays passing lanes and forces point guards to go to their off hands. Also, in this new NBA of fast-breaks and "can't touch the perimeter guys" (which everyone on this board bitches about), Nash plays smart defense where he doesn't get in foul trouble (important because he is the most valuable to this team), and he will often realize when his player has beaten him and allow a layup, only to jet out early and a quick bucket within 3 seconds at the other end.

Just because he doesn't play the slap-at-the-ball defense like Dirk doesn't mean he's any less valuable. Oh, and I forgot what a great defender Jason Terry is...

I agree with everything you said up untill the last part. Terry's a decent defensive player, and he gets a lot of steals.

MrChug

01-12-2007, 03:48 PM

Yes, he will be. Unless Tim Duncan leads the Spurs to invinceable heights for the rest of the season and is better than 20/10 numbers-wise. Or unless the Mavs lose a key component and Dirk keeps them dominant. I could even see Kobe getting more than a few votes if the Lakers get as high as a 3rd or fourth spot.

MVP races can go anywhere in half a season. But I'd say the MVP race has Nash first, Dirk 2nd, LeBron 3rd.

stretch

01-12-2007, 04:04 PM

Nash is having an amazing year. He is shooting over 50% on both FG's AND 3pt's, and averaging about 20 ppg and 11 apg. for right now, the MVP race is between him and Dirk. i really won't be suprized one bit if Nash wins it again.

JMarkJohns

01-12-2007, 06:28 PM

i'm hoping arenas wins out and i'm hoping that nash doesn't win it this year because of the historic implications: because no way in hell nash is better than oscar or as good as magic.

I don't think he'll win it for this reason either... I just can't see it, but if his numbers remain 20 points, 11 assists on great shooting and the Suns remain on pace of 60 wins, then it's possible.

mabber

01-12-2007, 07:16 PM

i'm hoping arenas wins out and i'm hoping that nash doesn't win it this year because of the historic implications: because no way in hell nash is better than oscar or as good as magic.

Did you see Oscar play? Cuz I sure didn't so there's no way I could say he was better or worse than Nash. From what I've read about him I'd guess he was much better but I couldn't make the comment that you did. I agree, he's not in the same league as Magic but Magic was a freak of nature (6ft9 or 10) point guard.

Nash is a product of his system but at the same time he's perfected the role and certainly deserves his MVP awards IMO. I would think the Suns still make the playoffs (6-8 seed) this season but I doubt they would have made the playoffs last season w/o Amare.

Nash would be a deserving recipient again this season but I'll be surprised if LeBron doesn't get it. The Cavs have the best or close to the best record in the east and I think they'd be a lottery team w/o LeBron.

mabber

01-12-2007, 07:18 PM

I agree with everything you said up untill the last part. Terry's a decent defensive player, and he gets a lot of steals.

He does??? I must have been taking a piss during those times that he's getting those steals :lol

Terry is a very average defensive player...but he's a big step up from Nash in that category.

Amare_32

01-12-2007, 07:24 PM

Why not Nash again? He is having a better year than his first 2 MVP years. Who else?

Wade - Heat are not even .500 in the Leastern Conference
Bryant- Give me a break at most Lakers are a 5th seed
Melo- He loses points among voters for that bitch slap

The only viable MVP choices other than Nash are,

Dirk
Duncan
Arenas
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Amare_32

01-12-2007, 07:26 PM

i'm hoping arenas wins out and i'm hoping that nash doesn't win it this year because of the historic implications: because no way in hell nash is better than oscar or as good as magic.

Did you see Oscar play? I can understand your point about Magic but Robertson? You probably have not even seen film of him.
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Amare_32

01-12-2007, 07:31 PM

Once again everyone is concerned about Nash's sLuck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_L uck_The_Fakers_. Look how much he gives up to opposing guards. Jason Kidd for example. Doesn't anyone care about defense?

So what? The Suns swept the Nets.
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mavs>spurs2

01-12-2007, 11:14 PM

Dirk is never deserving - let's not kid ourselves here... Nash was just being nice and trying to share with everyone - even his less-than-talented-can't-win-former-teammate

Can't win? He did a great job of beating your Suns in the WCF. Why don't you pull your head out of your ass and watch a few basketball games before making these random ass retarded comments.

ducks

01-12-2007, 11:16 PM

melo mvp

mavs>spurs2

01-12-2007, 11:26 PM

melo mvp

Lol Stern would never let that happen as long as he thinks it will hurt the NBA's image.

dirk4mvp

01-12-2007, 11:26 PM

What? That's usually when they blow a lead and he has to come in and provide some kind of offense.

Why would your squad of ballers that you jerk to be giving up big leads in the first place?

itzsoweezee

01-12-2007, 11:40 PM

Did you see Oscar play? Cuz I sure didn't so there's no way I could say he was better or worse than Nash. From what I've read about him I'd guess he was much better but I couldn't make the comment that you did.

oh sure you can, people do it all the time.
oscar averaged a triple double for a season (while averaging 30 points!) and almost did it four other times. i don't need to see video to know that there's any way in hell nash is coming close to that. especially considering that no one in the history of the nba has EVER done it before or since.

objectively, nash isn't touching oscar on any level. subjectively, no one other than a suns fan would think otherwise.

ducks

01-12-2007, 11:44 PM

does nash have a chance to win it three times in a row since he was not born in armerica?
does that not help stern's dream ...

RonMexico

01-13-2007, 06:10 AM

Why would your squad of ballers that you jerk to be giving up big leads in the first place?

You mean the scrubs? With an 8-man rotation, it can happen when you turn over the duties to the guys at the end of the bench... I don't see what your point is here...

RonMexico

01-13-2007, 06:12 AM

Can't win? He did a great job of beating your Suns in the WCF. Why don't you pull your head out of your ass and watch a few basketball games before making these random ass retarded comments.

I do watch a lot of games - that's why I pay for league pass... I saw Dirk lose the title by choking it up in 4 straight games. I also saw him lose to Nash, Amare, and Co. in 2005 in 6 games. I also saw him get blown out by Utah earlier this year... then I sadly, saw him play well the second time around...

mavsfan1000

01-13-2007, 06:15 AM

RonMexico

01-13-2007, 06:36 AM

Did you see Dirk tonight making a great comeback against the Pacers when the team was having an off night? Dirk4MVP

Nah, I was out to dinner... heard about it when I got back though... I need to watch the highlights now because they talked about some kind of Danny Granger controversy on Sportscenter top plays, so I have to wait for the next one to start...

Celtic Pride

01-14-2007, 02:51 AM

mabber

01-14-2007, 11:11 AM

What I want to know Ron Mexico is did you think Nash was MVP when he was in Dallas playing the exact same way? Did Nash really leave the Mavs for the cash or the fear of having to play defense?

There are a couple of different versions to the story of exactly how Nash got away to the Suns and it really just depends on who you believe. He certainly didn't leave for fear of having to play defense because Nellie was still the coach of the Mavs:lol Nash leaving was the beginning of the end of Nellie in Dallas though. Nellie was very upset over that cuz he couldn't run his offense as effectively (similar to Sun's current style) w/o Nash. This was a blessing in disguise as it expidited Avery Johnson becoming the Mav coach and a different style of play that is better suited to winning in the playoffs.

Whatever the reason it worked out great for both teams. Nash went to the perfect team for him and got 2 MVPs that he wouldn't have got by playing in Dallas with Dirk. The Mavs got better because Dirk was finally w/o his little buddy that he always deferred to so he had to become "the man". His game has improved so much w/o Nash being there. I'm not saying his game couldn't have improved as much as it has with Nash, I'm saying it wouldn't have because he wasn't nearly as selfish as he needed to be when Nash was around.

dirk4mvp

01-14-2007, 11:53 AM

LB7

01-14-2007, 11:56 AM

Nah, I was out to dinner... heard about it when I got back though... I need to watch the highlights now because they talked about some kind of Danny Granger controversy on Sportscenter top plays, so I have to wait for the next one to start...
LMAO...this is when you know that a poster is just flat out hating and will not ever admit when a player is one of the best in the league. The guy scores 43 to propel his team and you still try to make an excuse. Its very sad really. You probably had the same excuses when he dropped 50 on yall in the playoffs. You can thank Tim Thomas for that little kiss he blew to ignite Dirk. Classy. Its fine...you keep making excuses. Maybe Dirk will drop 50 on yall again. Even then, you still won't give him credit

Ohhh maybe I know the Danny Granger thing you're talking about. He got blocked from behind by Howard and then when Howard was trying to get out of the paint, Granger literally tackles him. Maybe thats it.

RonMexico

01-14-2007, 05:49 PM

LMAO...this is when you know that a poster is just flat out hating and will not ever admit when a player is one of the best in the league. The guy scores 43 to propel his team and you still try to make an excuse. Its very sad really. You probably had the same excuses when he dropped 50 on yall in the playoffs. You can thank Tim Thomas for that little kiss he blew to ignite Dirk. Classy. Its fine...you keep making excuses. Maybe Dirk will drop 50 on yall again. Even then, you still won't give him credit

Ohhh maybe I know the Danny Granger thing you're talking about. He got blocked from behind by Howard and then when Howard was trying to get out of the paint, Granger literally tackles him. Maybe thats it.

I was just quoting what was said on Sportscenter... not hating... talk to Neil Everett next time he puts Danny Granger as top play #9 and then says, "Granger gets the 3pt play here, but couldn't get the whistle at the end of regulation... Mavs win in OT." That's the direct quote, and combining that with the "Danny Granger can't buy a call" thread started here, I made the statement that I wanted to see the highlights because the score on the ticker made it look like a good game and then the top play comments fueled the fire.

No one is hating - I hadn't seen the big 3's made by Terry or Dirk yet... I still maintain that Dirk would have gotten the call that Jermaine O'Neal did not. I'm still trying to figure out what block by Howard you mean... everyone on here has said he "blocked" O'Neal's shot, not Granger's.

RonMexico

01-14-2007, 05:50 PM

What I want to know Ron Mexico is did you think Nash was MVP when he was in Dallas playing the exact same way? Did Nash really leave the Mavs for the cash or the fear of having to play defense?

I don't believe he was playing the "exact same way" if you mean a career high in FG% 3PT%, points and assists this year at (almost) age 33 this year is "the same."

mavs>spurs2

01-14-2007, 06:40 PM

He does??? I must have been taking a piss during those times that he's getting those steals :lol

Terry is a very average defensive player...but he's a big step up from Nash in that category.

He averages 1.4 steals per game over his career, which isn't too bad.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jason_terry/career_stats.html

LB7

01-14-2007, 06:47 PM

No one is hating - I hadn't seen the big 3's made by Terry or Dirk yet... I still maintain that Dirk would have gotten the call that Jermaine O'Neal did not. I'm still trying to figure out what block by Howard you mean... everyone on here has said he "blocked" O'Neal's shot, not Granger's.
Did you watch all the highlights? Yes, Josh did block O'Neal, but that was the end of regulation. He also blocked Granger's point blank shot from behind at the end of OT. Then, Granger immediately fouled by tackling him. Kinda a big play...are you blind?

RonMexico

01-14-2007, 09:36 PM

Did you watch all the highlights? Yes, Josh did block O'Neal, but that was the end of regulation. He also blocked Granger's point blank shot from behind at the end of OT. Then, Granger immediately fouled by tackling him. Kinda a big play...are you blind?

They didn't show the play at the end of OT on the 5 am Sportscenter... I guess they were blind to how big the play was?

LB7

01-14-2007, 09:58 PM

They didn't show the play at the end of OT on the 5 am Sportscenter... I guess they were blind to how big the play was?
Well, lemme ask you. Do you consider this important: Mavs up 112-111, Pacers with ball with 27 seconds left in OT, O'Neal gets a good look and misses, Granger rebounds under the basket for a layup and Howard blocks it and is then pulled to the floor by Granger with 6 seconds left. Inbound pass to Dirk and Dirk fouled with 2 FTs to seal it. Here is the play-by-play for ya:

Terry Jump Shot: Made (30 PTS) 0:27
[DAL 112-111]
0:08 O'Neal Jump Shot: Missed
0:07 Granger Rebound (Off:5 Def:3)
0:06 Granger Layup Shot: Missed Block: Howard (2 BLK)
Howard Rebound (Off:3 Def:5) 0:05
0:05 Granger Foul: Personal (5 PF)

RonMexico

01-15-2007, 07:31 PM

Well, lemme ask you. Do you consider this important: Mavs up 112-111, Pacers with ball with 27 seconds left in OT, O'Neal gets a good look and misses, Granger rebounds under the basket for a layup and Howard blocks it and is then pulled to the floor by Granger with 6 seconds left. Inbound pass to Dirk and Dirk fouled with 2 FTs to seal it. Here is the play-by-play for ya:

Terry Jump Shot: Made (30 PTS) 0:27
[DAL 112-111]
0:08 O'Neal Jump Shot: Missed
0:07 Granger Rebound (Off:5 Def:3)
0:06 Granger Layup Shot: Missed Block: Howard (2 BLK)
Howard Rebound (Off:3 Def:5) 0:05
0:05 Granger Foul: Personal (5 PF)

Why are you attacking me? ESPN is the one to blame here for only showing Dirk's 3 in OT and then cutting to the stats page by saying the Mavs won. I'm sorry that I didn't see the play or research the Yahoo! play-by-play to get a better understanding about a game that isn't that important to me as a fan. You called me blind and I merely suggested that Sportscenter might be as well for not showing that highlight.

Spurologist

01-15-2007, 10:39 PM

The basketball gods will never allow this to happen.

tempe85

01-16-2007, 03:27 AM

By the way anyone else see Nash's sick block off the glass against the Grizz? Haha.. the guy whose shot he blocked looked pretty surprised.

LakeShow

01-16-2007, 03:07 PM

The Suns are now winners of 11 straight, and hold a 14-6 record.

Assuming they keep it up,(on pace for 58 wins) and Nash continues his great play, he just might be in contention for another MVP.

This year: 20.3pts 11.8assists
Last year: 18.8pts 10.5assists
First MVP: 15.5pts 11.5assists

could it happen again?

Those stats should have never won the MVP in the first place. The MVP is a joke! Hell, they don't even know how to define it. Make your team better? That's not a most valuable player. The MVP should be just what it is, The Most Valuable player to the league! The Best player! No way in hell that Kobe should not have won that last season. He singlehandily saved the league when it was struggling mightily last season with his 62 in 3 quarters and 81 point games.

I think Nash is a good player but his inability to play both sides of the court well should not have earned him the MVP award, imo! I have a problem with Nash winning the MVP anyway when the rules were changed (for him) to help him succeed in this league. In todays NBA, those stats are bloated. I would bet you that players like Isiah Thomas, Mark Price and Kevin Johnson would average 30/15 a night in todays NBA. There should be an asterik on all awards after the rule changes because they made a drastic difference in play. Even Kobe's 81 should have one. This game is all about Offense and I'm starting to wonder if the NBA is truly "Rigged"

RonMexico

01-16-2007, 04:47 PM

Those stats should have never won the MVP in the first place. The MVP is a joke! Hell, they don't even know how to define it. Make your team better? That's not a most valuable player. The MVP should be just what it is, The Most Valuable player to the league! The Best player! No way in hell that Kobe should not have won that last season. He singlehandily saved the league when it was struggling mightily last season with his 62 in 3 quarters and 81 point games.

I think Nash is a good player but his inability to play both sides of the court well should not have earned him the MVP award, imo! I have a problem with Nash winning the MVP anyway when the rules were changed (for him) to help him succeed in this league. In todays NBA, those stats are bloated. I would bet you that players like Isiah Thomas, Mark Price and Kevin Johnson would average 30/15 a night in todays NBA. There should be an asterik on all awards after the rule changes because they made a drastic difference in play. Even Kobe's 81 should have one. This game is all about Offense and I'm starting to wonder if the NBA is truly "Rigged"

HAHAHAHAH - the MVP by definition is the "Most Valuable Player to his team" aka "one who makes the team better." I don't have the time/energy to respond to all the inaccuracies in your post. If they just picked the best player in the league every year, then whoever was rated highest in NBA Live that season should win it. (I guess this is your argument why Kobe should have 6 MVPs or something.)

The reason the rules had to be changed is so they could get it back to the days of old. Teams were averaging in the 100s per game as early as 1970. Defense was played with the feet instead of the hands, so the league had to put in a hand-check rule in order to put the fun back in the game. As a Showtime Laker fan, you should appreciate that more than anybody. Kevin Johnson averaged 20/11 up until 1996 when the Riley-style Knicks were all the rage and then his numbers dropped to 17/7. He was only 28 at the time, so age wasn't a factor - it was the fact that changes in style and current rules prevented players from driving the lane, which is what makes a point guard effective. Tiny Archibald averaged 34/11 in the 1970s because players didn't hand check and actually tried to play fundamental defense. Oscar Robertson averaged a triple-double because the rules allowed him to back down players (Mark Jackson abused that, so the rule was changed to disallow it).

stretch

01-16-2007, 04:58 PM

I do watch a lot of games - that's why I pay for league pass... I saw Dirk lose the title by choking it up in 4 straight games. I also saw him lose to Nash, Amare, and Co. in 2005 in 6 games. I also saw him get blown out by Utah earlier this year... then I sadly, saw him play well the second time around...
hmm... we also saw the Suns get their asses handed to them by the Spurs in 2005 in 5 games, and by the Mavs in 2006 in 6 games. it appears that Nash, Amare, and Co. hasnt even made it to the finals. perhaps the Suns are now going to be like the Colts of the NFL. great team, tons of offense, mediocre defense, despite stats that make it look better than it is, that wins lots of games in the season. however, teams with strong, well executed defenses will always beat them in the playoffs, no matter what.

you have no right to talk trash, you worthless piece of shit.

btw- so you cant put stupid words in my mouth as you typically do... currently, i think Nash is hands down the frontrunner for MVP this year. the only other player that can even be considered is Dirk, mainly because the Cavs (Lebron) arent very good, the Lakers (Kobe) are way too inconsistent and Kobe hasnt been quite the force he was last season and is still quite inconsistent, the Heat (Wade) sucks ass this year, and no one else really stands out so far.

RonMexico

01-16-2007, 05:05 PM

hmm... we also saw the Suns get their asses handed to them by the Spurs in 2005 in 5 games, and by the Mavs in 2006 in 6 games. it appears that Nash, Amare, and Co. hasnt even made it to the finals. perhaps the Suns are now going to be like the Colts of the NFL. great team, tons of offense, mediocre defense, despite stats that make it look better than it is, that wins lots of games in the season. however, teams with strong, well executed defenses will always beat them in the playoffs, no matter what.

you have no right to talk trash, you worthless piece of shit.

btw- so you cant put stupid words in my mouth as you typically do... currently, i think Nash is hands down the frontrunner for MVP this year. the only other player that can even be considered is Dirk, mainly because the Cavs (Lebron) arent very good, the Lakers (Kobe) are way too inconsistent and Kobe hasnt been quite the force he was last season and is still quite inconsistent, the Heat (Wade) sucks ass this year, and no one else really stands out so far.

You have no right to talk trash either - your franchise has made the Finals once in their history.

Perhaps the Suns will be like the Colts and start playing defense this playoff season... whoops, the Suns already have started in the regular season.

stretch

01-16-2007, 05:12 PM

You have no right to talk trash either - your franchise has made the Finals once in their history.

Perhaps the Suns will be like the Colts and start playing defense this playoff season... whoops, the Suns already have started in the regular season.
hmm... and the Colts played what was statisically among the BEST defenses in the NFL last season. and what happened? they got their asses handed to them in their 1st playoff game.

RonMexico

01-16-2007, 05:18 PM

hmm... and the Colts played what was statisically among the BEST defenses in the NFL last season. and what happened? they got their asses handed to them in their 1st playoff game.

And the Mavs statistically played the best in the Western Conference last season, then got their asses handed to them in their 1st Finals.

LakeShow

01-16-2007, 06:36 PM

HAHAHAHAH - the MVP by definition is the "Most Valuable Player to his team" aka "one who makes the team better." I don't have the time/energy to respond to all the inaccuracies in your post. If they just picked the best player in the league every year, then whoever was rated highest in NBA Live that season should win it. (I guess this is your argument why Kobe should have 6 MVPs or something.)

The reason the rules had to be changed is so they could get it back to the days of old. Teams were averaging in the 100s per game as early as 1970. Defense was played with the feet instead of the hands, so the league had to put in a hand-check rule in order to put the fun back in the game. As a Showtime Laker fan, you should appreciate that more than anybody. Kevin Johnson averaged 20/11 up until 1996 when the Riley-style Knicks were all the rage and then his numbers dropped to 17/7. He was only 28 at the time, so age wasn't a factor - it was the fact that changes in style and current rules prevented players from driving the lane, which is what makes a point guard effective. Tiny Archibald averaged 34/11 in the 1970s because players didn't hand check and actually tried to play fundamental defense. Oscar Robertson averaged a triple-double because the rules allowed him to back down players (Mark Jackson abused that, so the rule was changed to disallow it).

Please tell me how having good stats, not great stats and never winning a title would make your "team better?" Better to do what? LOSE? That's bullshit! If that is what it's all about, Wade should have been MVP. Every one of the top players in the NBA makes their team better! The Mvp used to stand for the best player, period. One that makes a difference on both ends of the court. When Tim Duncan was winning the MVP when the lakers were winning titles, I could live with that because Duncan made an impact on both ends. Even A.I led the league in steals when he won MVP, so he was playing on both ends of the court. Nash is not one of those players. I'll give Nash the first one just for the hell of it because the Suns were the best team in the league, but the other one was undeserved.

Not the defense played with your feet argument again :rolleyes , like I said then, I have never seen a player block a shot with his feet. As a showtime Lakers fan, I know that they did play defense. Were they the best in the league? No, but they could make stops when needed.

The league put in a hand check rule because Cuban complained that Nash was not strong enough to get through them. Hand checking was allowed until recently. Archibald, KJ, Magic, Isiah, Price, Floyd, etc..etc.. all dealt with it and still put up good numbers. Nash is just weak@ end of story!